Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Bill D 14 Dec 12 - 05:29 PM
katlaughing 14 Dec 12 - 05:50 PM
bobad 14 Dec 12 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,999 14 Dec 12 - 06:18 PM
Bill D 14 Dec 12 - 06:21 PM
bobad 14 Dec 12 - 06:23 PM
Bill D 14 Dec 12 - 06:27 PM
Dorothy Parshall 14 Dec 12 - 07:17 PM
Ron Davies 14 Dec 12 - 07:24 PM
Stringsinger 14 Dec 12 - 07:39 PM
GUEST 14 Dec 12 - 07:41 PM
Bobert 14 Dec 12 - 07:42 PM
Stringsinger 14 Dec 12 - 07:47 PM
Stringsinger 14 Dec 12 - 07:55 PM
kendall 14 Dec 12 - 08:11 PM
Bill D 14 Dec 12 - 08:15 PM
Henry Krinkle 14 Dec 12 - 08:16 PM
Bill D 14 Dec 12 - 08:17 PM
bobad 14 Dec 12 - 08:24 PM
gnu 14 Dec 12 - 08:30 PM
Bobert 14 Dec 12 - 08:35 PM
Jack Campin 14 Dec 12 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,999 14 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 14 Dec 12 - 08:58 PM
Bill D 14 Dec 12 - 09:44 PM
olddude 14 Dec 12 - 09:53 PM
Henry Krinkle 14 Dec 12 - 09:58 PM
olddude 14 Dec 12 - 10:01 PM
bobad 14 Dec 12 - 10:07 PM
GUEST,999 14 Dec 12 - 10:12 PM
Bill D 14 Dec 12 - 10:36 PM
Dorothy Parshall 14 Dec 12 - 10:41 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 14 Dec 12 - 10:46 PM
GUEST,999 14 Dec 12 - 10:57 PM
Bobert 14 Dec 12 - 10:59 PM
number 6 14 Dec 12 - 11:01 PM
Beer 14 Dec 12 - 11:18 PM
olddude 14 Dec 12 - 11:29 PM
Janie 14 Dec 12 - 11:31 PM
Beer 14 Dec 12 - 11:34 PM
number 6 14 Dec 12 - 11:35 PM
GUEST,Stim 14 Dec 12 - 11:52 PM
number 6 15 Dec 12 - 12:01 AM
Henry Krinkle 15 Dec 12 - 12:32 AM
freda underhill 15 Dec 12 - 01:31 AM
Henry Krinkle 15 Dec 12 - 01:59 AM
freda underhill 15 Dec 12 - 02:10 AM
Henry Krinkle 15 Dec 12 - 03:40 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Dec 12 - 05:41 AM
Stu 15 Dec 12 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,gillymor 15 Dec 12 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 15 Dec 12 - 07:41 AM
Ron Davies 15 Dec 12 - 07:44 AM
Henry Krinkle 15 Dec 12 - 07:45 AM
Ron Davies 15 Dec 12 - 08:06 AM
Henry Krinkle 15 Dec 12 - 08:14 AM
bobad 15 Dec 12 - 08:16 AM
Henry Krinkle 15 Dec 12 - 08:32 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 15 Dec 12 - 08:40 AM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 08:40 AM
Ron Davies 15 Dec 12 - 08:46 AM
bobad 15 Dec 12 - 09:08 AM
Howard Jones 15 Dec 12 - 09:10 AM
Ron Davies 15 Dec 12 - 09:23 AM
Henry Krinkle 15 Dec 12 - 09:32 AM
Stu 15 Dec 12 - 10:02 AM
Bat Goddess 15 Dec 12 - 10:16 AM
Jeri 15 Dec 12 - 10:26 AM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,gillymor 15 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM
Jeri 15 Dec 12 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 12 - 11:02 AM
Jeri 15 Dec 12 - 11:16 AM
Noreen 15 Dec 12 - 11:34 AM
Bill D 15 Dec 12 - 11:45 AM
Bill D 15 Dec 12 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,gillymor 15 Dec 12 - 11:56 AM
Jeri 15 Dec 12 - 12:09 PM
dick greenhaus 15 Dec 12 - 12:25 PM
olddude 15 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM
Jeri 15 Dec 12 - 12:43 PM
Greg F. 15 Dec 12 - 01:18 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM
Bat Goddess 15 Dec 12 - 01:44 PM
Bill D 15 Dec 12 - 01:48 PM
kendall 15 Dec 12 - 01:49 PM
Greg F. 15 Dec 12 - 01:58 PM
Jeri 15 Dec 12 - 02:00 PM
Jeri 15 Dec 12 - 02:04 PM
kendall 15 Dec 12 - 02:12 PM
kendall 15 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 02:37 PM
gnu 15 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM
John P 15 Dec 12 - 02:59 PM
Jeri 15 Dec 12 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 12 - 03:20 PM
John P 15 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 12 - 03:30 PM
gnu 15 Dec 12 - 03:48 PM
olddude 15 Dec 12 - 03:52 PM
Greg F. 15 Dec 12 - 03:54 PM
Greg F. 15 Dec 12 - 03:57 PM
olddude 15 Dec 12 - 03:58 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 04:02 PM
olddude 15 Dec 12 - 04:09 PM
olddude 15 Dec 12 - 04:10 PM
gnu 15 Dec 12 - 04:34 PM
kendall 15 Dec 12 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 12 - 04:46 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 04:49 PM
Ron Davies 15 Dec 12 - 04:55 PM
Greg F. 15 Dec 12 - 05:03 PM
theleveller 15 Dec 12 - 05:10 PM
SPB-Cooperator 15 Dec 12 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 12 - 05:16 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 12 - 05:52 PM
Dorothy Parshall 15 Dec 12 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 12 - 06:02 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 06:04 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 12 - 06:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Dec 12 - 06:19 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 06:29 PM
Howard Jones 15 Dec 12 - 06:32 PM
Greg F. 15 Dec 12 - 06:41 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 06:45 PM
Henry Krinkle 15 Dec 12 - 07:06 PM
kendall 15 Dec 12 - 07:06 PM
kendall 15 Dec 12 - 07:17 PM
Bill D 15 Dec 12 - 07:18 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM
bobad 15 Dec 12 - 07:23 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 07:28 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 07:41 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 07:56 PM
gnu 15 Dec 12 - 08:02 PM
Joe Offer 15 Dec 12 - 08:04 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 08:06 PM
kendall 15 Dec 12 - 08:07 PM
Joe Offer 15 Dec 12 - 08:17 PM
Ebbie 15 Dec 12 - 08:18 PM
olddude 15 Dec 12 - 08:24 PM
olddude 15 Dec 12 - 08:30 PM
kendall 15 Dec 12 - 08:31 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 08:35 PM
gnu 15 Dec 12 - 08:45 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 08:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 12 - 09:12 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 09:17 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 15 Dec 12 - 09:28 PM
Jeri 15 Dec 12 - 09:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 12 - 09:40 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 09:41 PM
kendall 15 Dec 12 - 09:52 PM
Bill D 15 Dec 12 - 09:55 PM
Joe Offer 15 Dec 12 - 10:05 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 12 - 10:11 PM
pdq 15 Dec 12 - 10:26 PM
gnu 15 Dec 12 - 10:28 PM
olddude 15 Dec 12 - 10:35 PM
Jeri 15 Dec 12 - 10:37 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 12 - 10:46 PM
mg 15 Dec 12 - 10:55 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 15 Dec 12 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie 16 Dec 12 - 02:24 AM
GUEST 16 Dec 12 - 02:51 AM
Ebbie 16 Dec 12 - 02:54 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Dec 12 - 05:13 AM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 05:28 AM
mg 16 Dec 12 - 05:29 AM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 05:35 AM
mg 16 Dec 12 - 05:36 AM
Will Fly 16 Dec 12 - 05:40 AM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 05:52 AM
mg 16 Dec 12 - 05:55 AM
Will Fly 16 Dec 12 - 06:06 AM
Will Fly 16 Dec 12 - 06:08 AM
Charmion 16 Dec 12 - 06:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Dec 12 - 06:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Dec 12 - 07:13 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Dec 12 - 07:31 AM
Stu 16 Dec 12 - 07:58 AM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 08:13 AM
Bobert 16 Dec 12 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,gilllymor 16 Dec 12 - 08:44 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Dec 12 - 09:44 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 16 Dec 12 - 09:54 AM
GUEST 16 Dec 12 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,999 16 Dec 12 - 10:11 AM
Greg F. 16 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM
Bill D 16 Dec 12 - 10:50 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Dec 12 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Dec 12 - 10:59 AM
Stu 16 Dec 12 - 11:03 AM
John P 16 Dec 12 - 11:08 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 16 Dec 12 - 11:15 AM
bobad 16 Dec 12 - 11:39 AM
Jeri 16 Dec 12 - 11:40 AM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,999 16 Dec 12 - 11:46 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Dec 12 - 11:51 AM
pdq 16 Dec 12 - 12:15 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 16 Dec 12 - 12:16 PM
John MacKenzie 16 Dec 12 - 12:27 PM
Bill D 16 Dec 12 - 12:46 PM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 12:46 PM
Greg F. 16 Dec 12 - 12:54 PM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 01:05 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 01:10 PM
pdq 16 Dec 12 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,gillymor 16 Dec 12 - 01:28 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 16 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM
Ebbie 16 Dec 12 - 02:03 PM
theleveller 16 Dec 12 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Dec 12 - 02:10 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 16 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM
catspaw49 16 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 02:40 PM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 02:45 PM
catspaw49 16 Dec 12 - 03:00 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 16 Dec 12 - 03:06 PM
catspaw49 16 Dec 12 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie 16 Dec 12 - 03:31 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 16 Dec 12 - 03:41 PM
Backwoodsman 16 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM
Henry Krinkle 16 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Dec 12 - 04:12 PM
Henry Krinkle 16 Dec 12 - 04:21 PM
kendall 16 Dec 12 - 04:23 PM
John MacKenzie 16 Dec 12 - 05:04 PM
jacqui.c 16 Dec 12 - 05:30 PM
gnu 16 Dec 12 - 05:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM
Stringsinger 16 Dec 12 - 05:54 PM
Bobert 16 Dec 12 - 06:32 PM
pdq 16 Dec 12 - 06:41 PM
Bobert 16 Dec 12 - 06:47 PM
pdq 16 Dec 12 - 07:01 PM
Bat Goddess 16 Dec 12 - 07:06 PM
gnu 16 Dec 12 - 07:36 PM
catspaw49 16 Dec 12 - 07:37 PM
pdq 16 Dec 12 - 07:52 PM
Greg F. 16 Dec 12 - 08:10 PM
Midchuck 16 Dec 12 - 08:13 PM
catspaw49 16 Dec 12 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,JIS 16 Dec 12 - 08:14 PM
Dorothy Parshall 16 Dec 12 - 08:30 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 16 Dec 12 - 08:34 PM
Janie 16 Dec 12 - 08:38 PM
Jack Campin 16 Dec 12 - 08:56 PM
catspaw49 16 Dec 12 - 08:59 PM
Bobert 16 Dec 12 - 09:00 PM
Janie 16 Dec 12 - 09:27 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 16 Dec 12 - 09:29 PM
bobad 16 Dec 12 - 09:31 PM
Henry Krinkle 16 Dec 12 - 10:15 PM
theleveller 17 Dec 12 - 03:07 AM
Will Fly 17 Dec 12 - 05:15 AM
Jack Campin 17 Dec 12 - 06:50 AM
Ron Davies 17 Dec 12 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Lighter 17 Dec 12 - 07:42 AM
Howard Jones 17 Dec 12 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,gillymor 17 Dec 12 - 08:47 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Dec 12 - 08:49 AM
Midchuck 17 Dec 12 - 08:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 09:01 AM
Ron Davies 17 Dec 12 - 09:01 AM
Charmion 17 Dec 12 - 09:23 AM
Will Fly 17 Dec 12 - 09:24 AM
Greg F. 17 Dec 12 - 09:39 AM
johncharles 17 Dec 12 - 09:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Lighter 17 Dec 12 - 10:28 AM
theleveller 17 Dec 12 - 10:31 AM
Greg F. 17 Dec 12 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Lighter 17 Dec 12 - 11:32 AM
theleveller 17 Dec 12 - 11:56 AM
Bill D 17 Dec 12 - 12:05 PM
pdq 17 Dec 12 - 12:12 PM
catspaw49 17 Dec 12 - 12:17 PM
pdq 17 Dec 12 - 12:31 PM
Greg F. 17 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM
olddude 17 Dec 12 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,999 17 Dec 12 - 12:47 PM
pdq 17 Dec 12 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,999 17 Dec 12 - 01:00 PM
Amos 17 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM
Megan L 17 Dec 12 - 01:48 PM
Greg F. 17 Dec 12 - 02:11 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 17 Dec 12 - 02:40 PM
kendall 17 Dec 12 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,olddude 17 Dec 12 - 03:04 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 17 Dec 12 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM
gnu 17 Dec 12 - 03:32 PM
pdq 17 Dec 12 - 04:46 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 05:02 PM
Henry Krinkle 17 Dec 12 - 05:08 PM
John MacKenzie 17 Dec 12 - 05:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,gillymor 17 Dec 12 - 05:29 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Dec 12 - 05:29 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 17 Dec 12 - 05:29 PM
Henry Krinkle 17 Dec 12 - 05:32 PM
pdq 17 Dec 12 - 05:41 PM
Greg F. 17 Dec 12 - 06:04 PM
pdq 17 Dec 12 - 06:15 PM
Greg F. 17 Dec 12 - 06:39 PM
Henry Krinkle 17 Dec 12 - 06:40 PM
Bill D 17 Dec 12 - 07:50 PM
Bill D 17 Dec 12 - 07:58 PM
pdq 17 Dec 12 - 07:59 PM
GUEST,999 17 Dec 12 - 08:00 PM
Jack Campin 17 Dec 12 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,gillymor 17 Dec 12 - 08:12 PM
Henry Krinkle 17 Dec 12 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,999 17 Dec 12 - 08:31 PM
Bill D 17 Dec 12 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,999 17 Dec 12 - 09:19 PM
Bill D 17 Dec 12 - 09:22 PM
GUEST,999 17 Dec 12 - 09:55 PM
John P 17 Dec 12 - 10:06 PM
Bill D 17 Dec 12 - 10:20 PM
olddude 17 Dec 12 - 10:21 PM
olddude 17 Dec 12 - 10:23 PM
Bill D 17 Dec 12 - 10:56 PM
gnu 17 Dec 12 - 11:01 PM
Henry Krinkle 17 Dec 12 - 11:18 PM
Ron Davies 18 Dec 12 - 12:02 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 18 Dec 12 - 12:15 AM
GUEST,999 18 Dec 12 - 02:16 AM
Henry Krinkle 18 Dec 12 - 02:58 AM
John MacKenzie 18 Dec 12 - 05:33 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Dec 12 - 05:47 AM
kendall 18 Dec 12 - 06:14 AM
kendall 18 Dec 12 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Eliza 18 Dec 12 - 07:10 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Dec 12 - 07:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Dec 12 - 07:35 AM
Charmion 18 Dec 12 - 07:56 AM
DMcG 18 Dec 12 - 08:01 AM
kendall 18 Dec 12 - 08:32 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 18 Dec 12 - 08:40 AM
DMcG 18 Dec 12 - 09:05 AM
John P 18 Dec 12 - 09:28 AM
beardedbruce 18 Dec 12 - 09:36 AM
John P 18 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM
Bill D 18 Dec 12 - 09:42 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 18 Dec 12 - 09:48 AM
bobad 18 Dec 12 - 09:57 AM
Charmion 18 Dec 12 - 10:08 AM
kendall 18 Dec 12 - 10:30 AM
catspaw49 18 Dec 12 - 10:35 AM
GUEST 18 Dec 12 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,gillymor 18 Dec 12 - 10:38 AM
kendall 18 Dec 12 - 10:38 AM
pdq 18 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM
olddude 18 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 10:53 AM
Stu 18 Dec 12 - 11:41 AM
beardedbruce 18 Dec 12 - 11:52 AM
kendall 18 Dec 12 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 01:10 PM
beardedbruce 18 Dec 12 - 01:12 PM
beardedbruce 18 Dec 12 - 01:17 PM
beardedbruce 18 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM
bobad 18 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM
Stringsinger 18 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 01:39 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Dec 12 - 01:39 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM
bobad 18 Dec 12 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,999 18 Dec 12 - 01:47 PM
olddude 18 Dec 12 - 02:04 PM
pdq 18 Dec 12 - 02:05 PM
Stringsinger 18 Dec 12 - 02:10 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Dec 12 - 02:32 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 02:46 PM
pdq 18 Dec 12 - 02:51 PM
olddude 18 Dec 12 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,999 18 Dec 12 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,999 18 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 03:07 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Dec 12 - 03:08 PM
Bill D 18 Dec 12 - 03:12 PM
Ron Davies 18 Dec 12 - 03:50 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 03:54 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Dec 12 - 03:57 PM
Megan L 18 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM
kendall 18 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM
olddude 18 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM
pdq 18 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 04:14 PM
gnu 18 Dec 12 - 04:41 PM
Bill D 18 Dec 12 - 04:42 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Dec 12 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,999 18 Dec 12 - 05:02 PM
Ron Davies 18 Dec 12 - 05:02 PM
voyager 18 Dec 12 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,Eliza 18 Dec 12 - 05:22 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Dec 12 - 05:23 PM
kendall 18 Dec 12 - 05:28 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Dec 12 - 05:41 PM
Charmion 18 Dec 12 - 05:58 PM
kendall 18 Dec 12 - 07:04 PM
CET 18 Dec 12 - 07:07 PM
Bill D 18 Dec 12 - 07:22 PM
pdq 18 Dec 12 - 07:31 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 07:50 PM
Ron Davies 18 Dec 12 - 07:57 PM
Ebbie 18 Dec 12 - 08:05 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Dec 12 - 08:09 PM
pdq 18 Dec 12 - 08:17 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 18 Dec 12 - 08:26 PM
Bill D 18 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 08:38 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Dec 12 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,999 18 Dec 12 - 08:52 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Dec 12 - 09:05 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 09:16 PM
olddude 18 Dec 12 - 09:20 PM
olddude 18 Dec 12 - 09:30 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 09:54 PM
Songwronger 18 Dec 12 - 09:56 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 12 - 10:17 PM
Songwronger 18 Dec 12 - 10:26 PM
Bill D 18 Dec 12 - 10:37 PM
Bill D 18 Dec 12 - 10:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Dec 12 - 10:58 PM
John MacKenzie 19 Dec 12 - 05:24 AM
Rob Naylor 19 Dec 12 - 08:07 AM
gnu 19 Dec 12 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 19 Dec 12 - 08:41 AM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 08:41 AM
kendall 19 Dec 12 - 08:53 AM
Greg F. 19 Dec 12 - 09:08 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 12 - 09:11 AM
beardedbruce 19 Dec 12 - 09:12 AM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 09:47 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 12 - 09:52 AM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 10:01 AM
beardedbruce 19 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Dec 12 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM
Charmion 19 Dec 12 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 12 - 10:57 AM
beardedbruce 19 Dec 12 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,TIA 19 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,TIA 19 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM
Bill D 19 Dec 12 - 01:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 02:35 PM
Bill D 19 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM
dick greenhaus 19 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 19 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Dec 12 - 04:06 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 04:34 PM
Greg F. 19 Dec 12 - 04:38 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 04:52 PM
Bill D 19 Dec 12 - 05:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM
Greg F. 19 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM
Bill D 19 Dec 12 - 06:30 PM
bobad 19 Dec 12 - 06:44 PM
Elmore 19 Dec 12 - 07:08 PM
kendall 19 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 19 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 07:27 PM
pdq 19 Dec 12 - 07:58 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 19 Dec 12 - 08:52 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 09:06 PM
Bill D 19 Dec 12 - 10:30 PM
kendall 20 Dec 12 - 04:22 AM
Bobert 20 Dec 12 - 09:00 AM
beardedbruce 20 Dec 12 - 09:16 AM
kendall 20 Dec 12 - 09:19 AM
beardedbruce 20 Dec 12 - 09:27 AM
Greg F. 20 Dec 12 - 09:43 AM
beardedbruce 20 Dec 12 - 09:59 AM
Bobert 20 Dec 12 - 10:06 AM
Greg F. 20 Dec 12 - 10:11 AM
John P 20 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM
Ron Davies 20 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM
Greg F. 20 Dec 12 - 01:43 PM
dick greenhaus 20 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 20 Dec 12 - 08:43 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 20 Dec 12 - 08:48 PM
Jack the Sailor 20 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 20 Dec 12 - 08:55 PM
Bobert 20 Dec 12 - 09:11 PM
gnu 20 Dec 12 - 09:13 PM
beardedbruce 21 Dec 12 - 08:16 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Dec 12 - 08:18 AM
John P 21 Dec 12 - 09:24 AM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 09:28 AM
Edthefolkie 21 Dec 12 - 09:54 AM
saulgoldie 21 Dec 12 - 10:22 AM
olddude 21 Dec 12 - 11:16 AM
johncharles 21 Dec 12 - 11:34 AM
Megan L 21 Dec 12 - 11:59 AM
kendall 21 Dec 12 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,SINSULL 21 Dec 12 - 12:21 PM
Bill D 21 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM
Stu 21 Dec 12 - 12:47 PM
Stu 21 Dec 12 - 12:54 PM
Greg F. 21 Dec 12 - 12:56 PM
GUEST 21 Dec 12 - 01:07 PM
Bill D 21 Dec 12 - 01:10 PM
bobad 21 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 01:29 PM
kendall 21 Dec 12 - 01:35 PM
theleveller 21 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM
pdq 21 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 02:05 PM
theleveller 21 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM
Greg F. 21 Dec 12 - 02:31 PM
Greg F. 21 Dec 12 - 02:33 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,Stim 21 Dec 12 - 03:22 PM
bobad 21 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 03:26 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 03:37 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 03:39 PM
Bill D 21 Dec 12 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,SINS 21 Dec 12 - 04:03 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 04:09 PM
kendall 21 Dec 12 - 04:16 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 04:31 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 04:42 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 05:01 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 05:20 PM
theleveller 21 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,olddude 21 Dec 12 - 06:10 PM
GUEST,olddude 21 Dec 12 - 06:15 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 06:27 PM
johncharles 21 Dec 12 - 07:06 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 07:30 PM
Ebbie 21 Dec 12 - 08:34 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 08:39 PM
Bill D 21 Dec 12 - 08:41 PM
kendall 21 Dec 12 - 08:46 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 09:59 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 10:20 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 10:37 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 10:54 PM
Ebbie 22 Dec 12 - 03:32 AM
GUEST,Eddie1 without cookie 22 Dec 12 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 22 Dec 12 - 04:57 AM
Stu 22 Dec 12 - 05:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Dec 12 - 06:56 AM
kendall 22 Dec 12 - 07:44 AM
kendall 22 Dec 12 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Don Wise 22 Dec 12 - 10:06 AM
Bobert 22 Dec 12 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,olddude 22 Dec 12 - 10:28 AM
Greg F. 22 Dec 12 - 10:46 AM
kendall 22 Dec 12 - 12:34 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 22 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,999 22 Dec 12 - 12:53 PM
Greg F. 22 Dec 12 - 01:06 PM
SINSULL 22 Dec 12 - 01:20 PM
saulgoldie 22 Dec 12 - 01:34 PM
Greg F. 22 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Dec 12 - 02:06 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 22 Dec 12 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 22 Dec 12 - 02:28 PM
olddude 22 Dec 12 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,999 22 Dec 12 - 03:34 PM
Greg F. 22 Dec 12 - 03:44 PM
gnu 22 Dec 12 - 04:12 PM
Ebbie 22 Dec 12 - 04:15 PM
gnu 22 Dec 12 - 04:38 PM
Greg F. 22 Dec 12 - 04:58 PM
number 6 22 Dec 12 - 06:50 PM
number 6 22 Dec 12 - 06:57 PM
kendall 22 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM
Greg F. 22 Dec 12 - 07:49 PM
Ed T 22 Dec 12 - 08:04 PM
Amos 22 Dec 12 - 08:11 PM
kendall 22 Dec 12 - 08:58 PM
Bobert 22 Dec 12 - 09:10 PM
Ebbie 22 Dec 12 - 10:01 PM
gnu 22 Dec 12 - 10:02 PM
Ebbie 22 Dec 12 - 10:04 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 22 Dec 12 - 10:22 PM
gnu 22 Dec 12 - 10:25 PM
Bobert 22 Dec 12 - 10:37 PM
Bobert 22 Dec 12 - 10:38 PM
Ebbie 22 Dec 12 - 10:57 PM
number 6 22 Dec 12 - 11:21 PM
PHJim 22 Dec 12 - 11:25 PM
number 6 22 Dec 12 - 11:35 PM
kendall 23 Dec 12 - 05:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,999 23 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM
Ron Davies 23 Dec 12 - 04:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 04:40 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 23 Dec 12 - 04:57 PM
kendall 23 Dec 12 - 04:58 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 12 - 06:01 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 12 - 06:03 PM
Bobert 23 Dec 12 - 06:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 06:26 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 12 - 06:38 PM
kendall 23 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM
gnu 23 Dec 12 - 07:17 PM
kendall 23 Dec 12 - 07:48 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 12 - 08:12 PM
Bobert 23 Dec 12 - 08:21 PM
Bill D 23 Dec 12 - 08:47 PM
Ron Davies 23 Dec 12 - 10:51 PM
Ron Davies 23 Dec 12 - 10:56 PM
number 6 23 Dec 12 - 11:15 PM
Ron Davies 23 Dec 12 - 11:34 PM
theleveller 24 Dec 12 - 04:04 AM
kendall 24 Dec 12 - 07:03 AM
Greg F. 24 Dec 12 - 09:37 AM
Bobert 24 Dec 12 - 09:37 AM
catspaw49 24 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,kendall 24 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM
Greg F. 24 Dec 12 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,kendall 24 Dec 12 - 11:38 AM
Greg F. 24 Dec 12 - 01:16 PM
Ebbie 24 Dec 12 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,kendall 24 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM
gnu 24 Dec 12 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 24 Dec 12 - 04:19 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM
pdq 26 Dec 12 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM
Bobert 26 Dec 12 - 11:03 AM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 11:07 AM
pdq 26 Dec 12 - 11:13 AM
bobad 26 Dec 12 - 11:53 AM
Greg F. 26 Dec 12 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 12:04 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 12:09 PM
pdq 26 Dec 12 - 12:26 PM
Ebbie 26 Dec 12 - 01:47 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 02:08 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM
pdq 26 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 02:41 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 02:44 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 03:31 PM
number 6 26 Dec 12 - 03:35 PM
number 6 26 Dec 12 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 03:46 PM
number 6 26 Dec 12 - 04:02 PM
Bobert 26 Dec 12 - 04:16 PM
gnu 26 Dec 12 - 04:25 PM
Bobert 26 Dec 12 - 04:42 PM
gnu 26 Dec 12 - 04:46 PM
gnu 26 Dec 12 - 04:56 PM
Bobert 26 Dec 12 - 04:57 PM
Bobert 26 Dec 12 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 05:07 PM
Bobert 26 Dec 12 - 05:16 PM
Ebbie 26 Dec 12 - 05:30 PM
Greg F. 26 Dec 12 - 05:47 PM
pdq 26 Dec 12 - 06:10 PM
gnu 26 Dec 12 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 06:50 PM
Bobert 26 Dec 12 - 06:54 PM
Janie 26 Dec 12 - 06:59 PM
gnu 26 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 27 Dec 12 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 27 Dec 12 - 03:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Dec 12 - 05:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Dec 12 - 05:33 AM
Stu 27 Dec 12 - 08:31 AM
beardedbruce 27 Dec 12 - 08:43 AM
beardedbruce 27 Dec 12 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,999 27 Dec 12 - 08:57 AM
Bobert 27 Dec 12 - 09:07 AM
beardedbruce 27 Dec 12 - 09:33 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Dec 12 - 10:00 AM
beardedbruce 27 Dec 12 - 10:01 AM
John P 27 Dec 12 - 10:30 AM
Greg F. 27 Dec 12 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 27 Dec 12 - 11:59 AM
Ebbie 27 Dec 12 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,999 27 Dec 12 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,999 27 Dec 12 - 12:13 PM
pdq 27 Dec 12 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,999 27 Dec 12 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 27 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM
beardedbruce 27 Dec 12 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 27 Dec 12 - 02:51 PM
Greg F. 27 Dec 12 - 03:02 PM
gnu 27 Dec 12 - 03:03 PM
Greg F. 27 Dec 12 - 03:04 PM
kendall 27 Dec 12 - 03:11 PM
Ron Davies 27 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM
Ron Davies 27 Dec 12 - 04:30 PM
bobad 27 Dec 12 - 05:10 PM
Bobert 27 Dec 12 - 05:34 PM
Bobert 27 Dec 12 - 05:43 PM
Bobert 27 Dec 12 - 06:04 PM
Bobert 27 Dec 12 - 08:09 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Dec 12 - 08:16 PM
Bobert 27 Dec 12 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,999 27 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM
Bobert 27 Dec 12 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 28 Dec 12 - 05:23 AM
kendall 28 Dec 12 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,999 28 Dec 12 - 09:41 AM
kendall 28 Dec 12 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,999 28 Dec 12 - 10:42 AM
number 6 28 Dec 12 - 10:50 AM
Bobert 28 Dec 12 - 12:50 PM
number 6 28 Dec 12 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 28 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 28 Dec 12 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,999 28 Dec 12 - 03:45 PM
gnu 28 Dec 12 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 29 Dec 12 - 04:39 AM
Midchuck 29 Dec 12 - 09:01 AM
Charmion 29 Dec 12 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,999 29 Dec 12 - 09:21 AM
Charmion 29 Dec 12 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,999 29 Dec 12 - 09:53 AM
Charmion 29 Dec 12 - 10:09 AM
GUEST 29 Dec 12 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,999 29 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM
Bill D 29 Dec 12 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 29 Dec 12 - 11:10 AM
Charmion 29 Dec 12 - 12:08 PM
Janie 29 Dec 12 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,999 29 Dec 12 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Lighter 29 Dec 12 - 04:43 PM
Janie 29 Dec 12 - 04:51 PM
number 6 29 Dec 12 - 05:10 PM
Charmion 29 Dec 12 - 05:19 PM
Elmore 29 Dec 12 - 07:35 PM
Bobert 29 Dec 12 - 07:39 PM
Bill D 29 Dec 12 - 07:54 PM
Janie 29 Dec 12 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,999 29 Dec 12 - 08:00 PM
Elmore 29 Dec 12 - 08:11 PM
gnu 29 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM
Janie 29 Dec 12 - 08:37 PM
Janie 29 Dec 12 - 08:43 PM
Elmore 29 Dec 12 - 09:01 PM
Janie 29 Dec 12 - 09:03 PM
Janie 29 Dec 12 - 09:19 PM
Elmore 29 Dec 12 - 09:26 PM
Janie 29 Dec 12 - 09:33 PM
Bobert 29 Dec 12 - 09:39 PM
Janie 29 Dec 12 - 09:46 PM
Janie 29 Dec 12 - 09:47 PM
Bobert 29 Dec 12 - 10:08 PM
Charmion 30 Dec 12 - 12:24 AM
GUEST,999 30 Dec 12 - 09:37 AM
Bobert 30 Dec 12 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,kendall 30 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,kendall 30 Dec 12 - 03:39 PM
gnu 30 Dec 12 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,999 30 Dec 12 - 06:12 PM
gnu 30 Dec 12 - 06:13 PM
Bobert 30 Dec 12 - 06:15 PM
Jeri 30 Dec 12 - 06:28 PM
gnu 30 Dec 12 - 06:56 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Dec 12 - 08:42 PM
Jeri 30 Dec 12 - 08:46 PM
GUEST,999 30 Dec 12 - 08:59 PM
Bobert 30 Dec 12 - 09:45 PM
bobad 31 Dec 12 - 07:50 AM
Wesley S 31 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM
Ron Davies 01 Jan 13 - 12:30 PM
Ron Davies 01 Jan 13 - 12:37 PM
Bobert 02 Jan 13 - 10:25 AM
Bill D 02 Jan 13 - 12:18 PM
Bobert 02 Jan 13 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,TIA 02 Jan 13 - 01:08 PM
gnu 02 Jan 13 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Stim 03 Jan 13 - 02:17 AM
Stu 03 Jan 13 - 05:07 AM
Howard Jones 03 Jan 13 - 05:23 AM
theleveller 03 Jan 13 - 05:42 AM
GUEST,TIA 03 Jan 13 - 08:53 AM
Bobert 03 Jan 13 - 09:32 AM
Bobert 03 Jan 13 - 09:33 AM
gnu 03 Jan 13 - 05:23 PM
Bobert 03 Jan 13 - 05:31 PM
bobad 03 Jan 13 - 05:41 PM
gnu 03 Jan 13 - 05:53 PM
GUEST 03 Jan 13 - 06:03 PM
bobad 03 Jan 13 - 06:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jan 13 - 08:09 PM
bobad 03 Jan 13 - 08:27 PM
Bobert 03 Jan 13 - 08:49 PM
gnu 03 Jan 13 - 10:20 PM
olddude 03 Jan 13 - 10:36 PM
olddude 03 Jan 13 - 10:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jan 13 - 05:29 AM
Bobert 04 Jan 13 - 09:13 AM
Charmion 04 Jan 13 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,TIA 04 Jan 13 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,TIA 04 Jan 13 - 11:07 AM
Bobert 04 Jan 13 - 04:28 PM
gnu 05 Jan 13 - 06:42 PM
Bobert 05 Jan 13 - 07:00 PM
gnu 05 Jan 13 - 07:07 PM
GUEST,999 06 Jan 13 - 07:00 AM
Bobert 06 Jan 13 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,999 06 Jan 13 - 10:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Jan 13 - 05:21 AM
Bobert 07 Jan 13 - 08:05 AM
Bobert 07 Jan 13 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Lighter 07 Jan 13 - 11:13 AM
Ron Davies 07 Jan 13 - 03:19 PM
Greg F. 07 Jan 13 - 03:51 PM
olddude 07 Jan 13 - 04:05 PM
Bobert 07 Jan 13 - 05:23 PM
gnu 09 Jan 13 - 05:48 AM
Wesley S 09 Jan 13 - 09:15 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 13 - 09:22 AM
bobad 09 Jan 13 - 09:37 AM
Elmore 09 Jan 13 - 09:39 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 13 - 09:57 AM
gnu 09 Jan 13 - 03:53 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 13 - 05:28 PM
Wesley S 09 Jan 13 - 07:35 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 13 - 07:39 PM
gnu 09 Jan 13 - 08:33 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 13 - 08:40 PM
gnu 09 Jan 13 - 08:57 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 13 - 09:11 PM
Charmion 10 Jan 13 - 08:33 AM
Bobert 10 Jan 13 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Lighter 10 Jan 13 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,999 10 Jan 13 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,Stim 10 Jan 13 - 12:55 PM
gnu 10 Jan 13 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,999 10 Jan 13 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,999 10 Jan 13 - 05:38 PM
Charmion 10 Jan 13 - 08:29 PM
gnu 10 Jan 13 - 09:36 PM
GUEST,999 10 Jan 13 - 10:19 PM
Bobert 10 Jan 13 - 10:22 PM
frogprince 11 Jan 13 - 12:11 AM
olddude 11 Jan 13 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,999 11 Jan 13 - 11:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Jan 13 - 07:36 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 13 - 07:51 PM
Bill D 11 Jan 13 - 08:21 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 13 - 11:54 PM
GUEST,999 11 Jan 13 - 11:58 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Jan 13 - 09:01 AM
GUEST 12 Jan 13 - 10:36 AM
number 6 12 Jan 13 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Stim 12 Jan 13 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,Lighter 12 Jan 13 - 04:57 PM
Bobert 12 Jan 13 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,Stim 12 Jan 13 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Lighter 12 Jan 13 - 07:52 PM
pdq 12 Jan 13 - 08:15 PM
Bobert 12 Jan 13 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Stim 12 Jan 13 - 11:19 PM
GUEST,Lighter 13 Jan 13 - 09:07 AM
Wesley S 13 Jan 13 - 02:23 PM
Ron Davies 13 Jan 13 - 10:01 PM
Ron Davies 13 Jan 13 - 10:30 PM
Bobert 14 Jan 13 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,999 14 Jan 13 - 09:41 AM
Stringsinger 14 Jan 13 - 06:32 PM
Bobert 14 Jan 13 - 06:40 PM
pdq 14 Jan 13 - 07:22 PM
bobad 14 Jan 13 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,999 14 Jan 13 - 07:39 PM
gnu 14 Jan 13 - 08:13 PM
Bobert 14 Jan 13 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,999 15 Jan 13 - 12:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Jan 13 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Lighter 15 Jan 13 - 06:15 AM
Bobert 15 Jan 13 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,999 15 Jan 13 - 09:51 AM
Bobert 15 Jan 13 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,Stim 15 Jan 13 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,999 15 Jan 13 - 10:57 AM
Bill D 15 Jan 13 - 11:25 AM
Bill D 15 Jan 13 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Lighter 15 Jan 13 - 12:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Jan 13 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 15 Jan 13 - 01:26 PM
gnu 15 Jan 13 - 02:30 PM
SPB-Cooperator 15 Jan 13 - 02:37 PM
pdq 15 Jan 13 - 03:41 PM
Bill D 15 Jan 13 - 03:42 PM
bobad 15 Jan 13 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,Lighter 15 Jan 13 - 04:31 PM
Bobert 15 Jan 13 - 04:33 PM
olddude 15 Jan 13 - 05:48 PM
olddude 15 Jan 13 - 05:59 PM
olddude 15 Jan 13 - 06:08 PM
Bill D 15 Jan 13 - 06:18 PM
Bobert 15 Jan 13 - 06:20 PM
olddude 15 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM
pdq 15 Jan 13 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Lighter 15 Jan 13 - 06:55 PM
olddude 15 Jan 13 - 07:03 PM
Bobert 15 Jan 13 - 07:12 PM
Elmore 15 Jan 13 - 07:16 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Jan 13 - 07:26 PM
olddude 15 Jan 13 - 07:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Jan 13 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,Stim 15 Jan 13 - 07:40 PM
Bobert 15 Jan 13 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,Lighter 15 Jan 13 - 08:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Jan 13 - 07:44 AM
Charmion 16 Jan 13 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Jan 13 - 09:18 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 09:19 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 09:23 AM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Jan 13 - 10:17 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 16 Jan 13 - 10:18 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 10:33 AM
Bill D 16 Jan 13 - 12:13 PM
olddude 16 Jan 13 - 12:24 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 12:31 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 01:08 PM
olddude 16 Jan 13 - 01:19 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 01:49 PM
olddude 16 Jan 13 - 02:14 PM
olddude 16 Jan 13 - 02:22 PM
Charmion 16 Jan 13 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Jan 13 - 02:54 PM
Charmion 16 Jan 13 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Jan 13 - 03:25 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 03:40 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 04:30 PM
gnu 16 Jan 13 - 05:42 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 05:49 PM
olddude 16 Jan 13 - 06:58 PM
olddude 16 Jan 13 - 07:02 PM
gnu 16 Jan 13 - 07:14 PM
olddude 16 Jan 13 - 07:19 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 07:27 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 07:36 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 07:42 PM
olddude 16 Jan 13 - 07:52 PM
olddude 16 Jan 13 - 07:54 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 08:03 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 08:08 PM
olddude 16 Jan 13 - 08:12 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 08:16 PM
gnu 16 Jan 13 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 08:31 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 08:37 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 08:42 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 08:42 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 08:46 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 09:14 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 10:24 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 10:26 PM
Bill D 17 Jan 13 - 11:03 AM
olddude 17 Jan 13 - 11:51 AM
olddude 17 Jan 13 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,999 17 Jan 13 - 12:51 PM
Bill D 17 Jan 13 - 02:21 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jan 13 - 09:53 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jan 13 - 09:55 PM
GUEST,Lighter 18 Jan 13 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,olddude 18 Jan 13 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 18 Jan 13 - 08:09 AM
Bobert 18 Jan 13 - 08:45 AM
Bill D 20 Jan 13 - 05:26 PM
olddude 20 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM
gnu 20 Jan 13 - 06:23 PM
bobad 20 Jan 13 - 06:50 PM
Bobert 20 Jan 13 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,999 20 Jan 13 - 07:51 PM
Bobert 20 Jan 13 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,999 20 Jan 13 - 08:11 PM
Bobert 20 Jan 13 - 08:23 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 13 - 08:26 PM
Bobert 20 Jan 13 - 08:29 PM
Bobert 20 Jan 13 - 08:31 PM
pdq 20 Jan 13 - 08:43 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 13 - 10:20 PM
Ron Davies 20 Jan 13 - 10:29 PM
Ron Davies 20 Jan 13 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,999 21 Jan 13 - 01:06 PM
pdq 21 Jan 13 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,999 21 Jan 13 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,999 21 Jan 13 - 01:40 PM
Wesley S 21 Jan 13 - 01:52 PM
pdq 21 Jan 13 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,999 21 Jan 13 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,Stim 21 Jan 13 - 03:11 PM
Bill D 21 Jan 13 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,Stim 22 Jan 13 - 02:42 AM
Bobert 22 Jan 13 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,999 22 Jan 13 - 10:03 AM
olddude 22 Jan 13 - 10:11 AM
Bobert 22 Jan 13 - 10:12 AM
olddude 22 Jan 13 - 10:17 AM
olddude 22 Jan 13 - 10:27 AM
olddude 22 Jan 13 - 10:37 AM
Bobert 22 Jan 13 - 10:39 AM
pdq 22 Jan 13 - 10:42 AM
olddude 22 Jan 13 - 10:44 AM
olddude 22 Jan 13 - 10:54 AM
Bill D 22 Jan 13 - 11:17 AM
olddude 22 Jan 13 - 11:23 AM
pdq 22 Jan 13 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Stim 22 Jan 13 - 01:27 PM
catspaw49 22 Jan 13 - 02:32 PM
Greg F. 22 Jan 13 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,999 22 Jan 13 - 03:11 PM
Elmore 22 Jan 13 - 04:13 PM
Bill D 22 Jan 13 - 05:17 PM
Elmore 22 Jan 13 - 07:20 PM
Bill D 22 Jan 13 - 07:41 PM
Bobert 22 Jan 13 - 07:46 PM
bobad 27 Jan 13 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Stim 27 Jan 13 - 09:45 PM
Bill D 28 Jan 13 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Stim 28 Jan 13 - 10:15 PM
Bill D 28 Jan 13 - 11:15 PM
GUEST,Lighter 29 Jan 13 - 07:52 AM
Greg F. 29 Jan 13 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Lighter 29 Jan 13 - 10:15 AM
Bill D 29 Jan 13 - 10:29 AM
Bobert 29 Jan 13 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,999 29 Jan 13 - 10:37 AM
Greg F. 29 Jan 13 - 11:15 AM
Wesley S 29 Jan 13 - 11:20 AM
Donuel 29 Jan 13 - 11:44 AM
Greg F. 29 Jan 13 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Stim 29 Jan 13 - 03:29 PM
pdq 29 Jan 13 - 04:11 PM
Greg F. 29 Jan 13 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,999 29 Jan 13 - 05:35 PM
Bobert 29 Jan 13 - 06:02 PM
pdq 29 Jan 13 - 06:09 PM
pdq 29 Jan 13 - 06:26 PM
Greg F. 29 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jan 13 - 06:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jan 13 - 06:45 PM
Bobert 29 Jan 13 - 06:50 PM
pdq 29 Jan 13 - 06:52 PM
Greg F. 29 Jan 13 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,Lighter 29 Jan 13 - 07:48 PM
Bobert 29 Jan 13 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,Stim 29 Jan 13 - 08:11 PM
Bobert 29 Jan 13 - 08:16 PM
pdq 29 Jan 13 - 08:22 PM
Bobert 29 Jan 13 - 08:27 PM
Bill D 29 Jan 13 - 08:28 PM
Greg F. 29 Jan 13 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,Stim 29 Jan 13 - 10:43 PM
Bobert 30 Jan 13 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Stim 30 Jan 13 - 10:17 AM
Bill D 30 Jan 13 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,Lighter 30 Jan 13 - 10:46 AM
Bill D 30 Jan 13 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,Stim 30 Jan 13 - 12:06 PM
Ebbie 31 Jan 13 - 12:03 PM
Bill D 31 Jan 13 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Lighter 31 Jan 13 - 12:39 PM
Greg F. 31 Jan 13 - 01:13 PM
Donuel 31 Jan 13 - 02:09 PM
Ebbie 31 Jan 13 - 03:43 PM
Bill D 31 Jan 13 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,Lighter 31 Jan 13 - 04:59 PM
Bobert 31 Jan 13 - 05:22 PM
freda underhill 31 Jan 13 - 05:34 PM
Bill D 31 Jan 13 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,Stim 01 Feb 13 - 12:25 AM
GUEST,Stim 01 Feb 13 - 12:46 AM
Bill D 01 Feb 13 - 12:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Feb 13 - 02:02 PM
Wesley S 01 Feb 13 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,Lighter 01 Feb 13 - 04:26 PM
Donuel 01 Feb 13 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Stim 01 Feb 13 - 11:41 PM
bobad 03 Feb 13 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 08:53 AM
SPB-Cooperator 03 Feb 13 - 09:32 AM
Greg F. 03 Feb 13 - 09:58 AM
GUEST 03 Feb 13 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM
Bill D 03 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 03:24 PM
Bill D 03 Feb 13 - 03:34 PM
Bobert 03 Feb 13 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 04:41 PM
gnu 03 Feb 13 - 05:51 PM
Greg F. 03 Feb 13 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 07:22 PM
Bill D 03 Feb 13 - 09:42 PM
bobad 22 Mar 13 - 09:39 AM
Bill D 22 Mar 13 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Stim 22 Mar 13 - 04:09 PM
bobad 22 Mar 13 - 05:12 PM
gnu 22 Mar 13 - 06:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 13 - 09:24 AM
Bill D 23 Mar 13 - 09:41 AM
Bobert 23 Mar 13 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Stim 23 Mar 13 - 12:08 PM
Bobert 23 Mar 13 - 01:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Stim 23 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM
gnu 23 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Stim 24 Mar 13 - 09:23 AM
Bobert 24 Mar 13 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,Stim 24 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 13 - 10:55 AM
Bill D 24 Mar 13 - 10:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 13 - 12:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Stim 24 Mar 13 - 06:32 PM
Bill D 24 Mar 13 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 Mar 13 - 12:26 PM
number 6 25 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 Mar 13 - 03:26 PM
Bill D 25 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM
Bobert 25 Mar 13 - 04:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 13 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 Mar 13 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 26 Mar 13 - 09:09 AM
Bill D 26 Mar 13 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 26 Mar 13 - 01:04 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Mar 13 - 02:09 PM
Bill D 26 Mar 13 - 02:37 PM
Bobert 26 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Mar 13 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,Stim 26 Mar 13 - 09:58 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Mar 13 - 02:40 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Mar 13 - 06:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Mar 13 - 06:11 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Mar 13 - 07:25 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM
Bobert 27 Mar 13 - 08:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Mar 13 - 08:08 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Mar 13 - 02:53 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Mar 13 - 08:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Mar 13 - 08:39 AM
Jack Campin 22 May 16 - 10:43 AM
Donuel 22 May 16 - 06:19 PM
Greg F. 23 May 16 - 12:34 PM
Donuel 24 May 16 - 12:25 AM
SPB-Cooperator 29 Jul 19 - 08:51 AM
Mossback 29 Jul 19 - 09:12 AM
SPB-Cooperator 29 Jul 19 - 09:22 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 19 - 11:30 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 19 - 11:31 AM
Stilly River Sage 29 Jul 19 - 11:34 AM
Mrrzy 29 Jul 19 - 11:40 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jul 19 - 11:42 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Jul 19 - 12:05 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 19 - 01:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jul 19 - 01:50 PM
Jack Campin 29 Jul 19 - 04:40 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Jul 19 - 04:45 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 19 - 07:02 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 19 - 07:06 PM
Mrrzy 29 Jul 19 - 10:33 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Jul 19 - 03:38 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 19 - 03:43 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Jul 19 - 04:21 AM
Mrrzy 30 Jul 19 - 10:46 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Jul 19 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 19 - 12:48 PM
SPB-Cooperator 31 Jul 19 - 04:47 AM
Mrrzy 31 Jul 19 - 11:00 AM
Backwoodsman 31 Jul 19 - 11:16 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 19 - 11:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 19 - 12:36 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 01:03 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 19 - 01:06 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 19 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 19 - 01:19 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 01:19 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 01:26 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Jul 19 - 01:31 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 01:40 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 01:42 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Jul 19 - 02:09 PM
Mrrzy 31 Jul 19 - 03:14 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Aug 19 - 02:06 AM
Mossback 01 Aug 19 - 07:14 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Aug 19 - 09:21 AM
John P 01 Aug 19 - 11:27 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Aug 19 - 12:14 PM
beardedbruce 01 Aug 19 - 12:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 Aug 19 - 01:13 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 19 - 02:47 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 19 - 06:03 PM
Mossback 01 Aug 19 - 06:32 PM
beardedbruce 01 Aug 19 - 07:52 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 Aug 19 - 08:58 PM
Mossback 01 Aug 19 - 09:10 PM
Mrrzy 02 Aug 19 - 11:06 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Aug 19 - 05:52 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 19 - 08:07 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Aug 19 - 08:33 AM
gillymor 04 Aug 19 - 09:04 AM
Mossback 04 Aug 19 - 09:09 AM
michaelr 04 Aug 19 - 12:31 PM
gillymor 04 Aug 19 - 12:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 Aug 19 - 01:00 PM
Mrrzy 04 Aug 19 - 03:46 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 19 - 07:23 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 19 - 07:48 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 19 - 10:18 PM
keberoxu 05 Aug 19 - 12:54 PM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Aug 19 - 12:56 PM
Bill D 05 Aug 19 - 01:17 PM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Aug 19 - 01:30 PM
Mossback 05 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM
Bill D 05 Aug 19 - 02:51 PM
Lighter 05 Aug 19 - 03:55 PM
Bill D 05 Aug 19 - 04:55 PM
Backwoodsman 05 Aug 19 - 05:20 PM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Aug 19 - 06:06 PM
Lighter 05 Aug 19 - 06:19 PM
Bill D 05 Aug 19 - 06:48 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 19 - 07:35 PM
Mrrzy 05 Aug 19 - 08:50 PM
Mossback 06 Aug 19 - 10:45 AM
Bill D 06 Aug 19 - 05:59 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 19 - 06:18 PM
SPB-Cooperator 06 Aug 19 - 11:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Aug 19 - 12:01 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Aug 19 - 01:47 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 19 - 03:23 AM
SPB-Cooperator 07 Aug 19 - 06:57 AM
SPB-Cooperator 07 Aug 19 - 07:07 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 19 - 01:56 PM
Mossback 07 Aug 19 - 02:27 PM
Bill D 07 Aug 19 - 07:50 PM
Mossback 09 Aug 19 - 08:14 PM
Bill D 10 Aug 19 - 05:14 PM
Mrrzy 11 Aug 19 - 12:02 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 05:29 PM

I hesitated starting this, but there needs to be a place to share ideas...and just vent.

I am alternately saddened, angered, frustrated, confused and coldly analytical about all this.

There are facts, data, ideas, opinions enough to fill 27 threads... but here are my first thoughts.
When I first saw the news, I went to the CNN website to look for details. Over at one side were these two headlines, one directly above the other:

"Gunmen kills 20 children, 6 adults at Connecticut elementary school
Fox News - 12 minutes ago

Man with knife injures 22 kids at school in China
USA TODAY - 7 minutes ago
"

Note the two different verbs.

I also heard that one 'statistic' is that 63% of similar attackers got the weapon(s) from their home or relatives homes.

I also note that the mall shootings in Portland Oregon a couple days ago where 'only' 3 innocent victims were shot were not even mentioned here.

I also know that there is no shortage in this country of either guns OR disturbed individuals. This is in a world with more & more stresses and instant information about shootings. Thus, I wonder how many tragedies have been... or will be... 'inspired' by OTHER tragedies. I cannot believe that this perpetrator had not read & seen the news of earlier situations.

I also am sure that the NRA and those who support it will continue to issue bland statements about how we need to find and deal with dangerous, disturbed people.
I submit that many of the dangerous, disturbed people will not be hard to find.... the only question is how many they will kill as they reveal themselves.

It is also a good thing that I don't know how to find Wayne LaPierre...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 05:50 PM

I totally agree, Bill.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:17 PM

This comment from the Atlantic:

"Guns don't attack children; psychopaths and sadists do. But guns uniquely allow a psychopath to wreak death and devastation on such a large scale so quickly and easily. America is the only country in which this happens again -- and again and again."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:18 PM

Canada's "National Post" reported scores of dead. Two of us on their site took them to task for sensationalizing an already horrific event. I do expect the same crap from LaPierre and the NRA. President Obama has vowed to take 'meaningful action' to prevent this kind of thing, but when guns are so easily available I don't see how he can. How the hell did a 20-year-old get two handguns and an AR-15? If a witness statement was reported correctly, that witness said s/he heard what sounded like a hundred shots fired. That implies the .223 was converted to full automatic which is doable with a kit and the know-how. Gun ownership is one issue, gun control is another. As I understand it, none of those kids were over the age of about 10 years. If that ain't enough to make ya cry, I don't know what is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:21 PM

You are correct, Bruce, that given how many guns are available... to 'borrow' or steal, as well as to buy, NOTHING can prevent a similar story tomorrow... or next week, or next year.
In 20 years? Maybe... if.... and there are so many ifs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:23 PM

The right wingnuts are starting to lay blame:

Fischer: Lack of prayer in public schools to blame for Conn. shootings

Mike Huckabee Says Sandy Hook Shooting Happened Because We 'Removed God From Our Schools'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:27 PM

Seems to me that any decent 'god' would have been IN that school. But that is a different discussion.

The right wingnuts will say what they always say... and solve nothing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:17 PM

"how does a 20 year old..." In small town, Ontario, it was common knowledge - even I knew it! - that you could get a gun at the "corner store", where all the high schoolers hung out.

Guns will always be easy to obtain - until we melt them all down - and surely there will still be some around somewhere. What needs to change is how our children are raised, how people think. Such a very few cause such devastation. WHY them? What went wrong in their young lives? What is missing that they need? You can call these "idealistic"; I call it realistic.

It is quite obvious that guns are not the problem:

This is enlightening.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:24 PM

What's more, they are also clueless about what they claim to know--the reasons for the 2nd Amendment.

Fear of a standing army, and consequent need for a "well-regulated militia"

Fear of British or Indian attack


I don't believe we've been terribly concerned about either of these for a while now.



I wonder when all gun-owners will in fact be required to show up for monthly , weekly, or even annual, drill.

Even in the first serious application of the "well-regulated militia" after the Bill of Rights was not exactly a triumph.    The drills turned out often to be drinkfests.

In fact the "well-regulated militia"---or anything but a standing army-- approach to national defence turned out to be a disaster.    They also had the nasty habit of disappearing when their time was up.

I understand that even the 8th of January was won mostly by the regular army.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:39 PM

A car doesn't kill 28 people. A knife can injure but doesn't kill 28 people.
An automatic weapon can kill even more. The NRA has blood on its hands.


Gun deaths

The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations, a government study found.
    The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000.
    The study, done by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, is the first comprehensive international look at gun-related deaths. It was published Thursday in the International Journal of Epidemiology.

    Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:41 PM

guest:murrbob

    The U.S. has seven times the gun-related murders per capita of any other Western nation. Guns ARE the problem, especially when they are automatic and semiautomatic weapons. These were certainly not a part of the Founding Fathers writing of the 2nd Amendment!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:42 PM

So when do we have an adult conversation about guns???

Oh, that's right...

Never...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:47 PM

Last year for guns

Last year: Killed by handguns
48 in Japan
8 in Great Britaij
34 in Switzerland
52 in Canada
58 in Israel
21 in Sweden
10,728 in the U.S. (even more than Mexico)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:55 PM

You could say that guns don't kill people but to be more precise, politics kills people, especially those politicians that support the gun lobby.

Micheal Moore was right in "Bowling for Columbine". There is a connection between
the military weapons manufacturers and the tolerance for gun usage in the U.S.

The U.S. possesses the most weaponry in the world. There is a climate for this
tragedy here not found elsewhere.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:11 PM

I'm willing to turn mine in if you think that will help.

\Every man in Switzerland has a gun for national defense, yet the murder rate is very low. Why?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:15 PM

We KNOW all those statistics, my friends... we also KNOW that there are 100,000,000 or more weapons- legally and illegally- in this country. We also KNOW that changing "how our children are raised, how people think." is not likely to help with the basic problem very soon.

   You see, those who will **not** willingly give up **any** guns of **any** type now hold the upper hand. They are willing to absorb a few yearly mass shootings in order to protect their 2nd amendment "rights"... even though the Founders would be appalled at how their seemingly reasonable idea has been perverted!

Only a mass, ground roots movement which gradually replaced all the members of Congress who vote the way the NRA donations demand will do any good...

.... unless some gun nut uses Congress as his target. Fat chance!

We need ideas... not repetition of statistics.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:16 PM

Guns are just a tool. Like a hammer or saw. Timothy McVeigh did more damage with diesel fuel and fertilizer. If a resourceful person wants a gun they will make one out of steel pipe.
Dorothy is correct. Raising mentally healthy people is the answer.
Anybody can have children. Regardless of how fit.
We are a nation of spoiled brats.
It's all about money and materialism.
=(:-( 0)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:17 PM

Read those statistics, Kendall... Switzerland is NOT that low! And it is not just 300 years old with a frontier mentality!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:24 PM

"Every man in Switzerland has a gun for national defense, yet the murder rate is very low. Why?"

Maybe because it's for "National Defense" rather than personal defense. The reason for carrying a concealed weapon I hear most in the US is for personal protection against, I presume, other people carrying concealed weapons. Now if no one carried concealed weapons.....well you get the picture. I'm Canadian and I have never, ever in my sixty three years known or heard of anyone to carry a concealed weapon, yet even here on Mudcat several American members have said they have permits to carry. This is, frankly, beyond my comprehension.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:30 PM

9... "That implies the .223 was converted to full automatic which is doable with a kit and the know-how."

Nope. No "kit" required. A simple file on the bent and Bob's yer assassin. I can show you how to do it in less than five minutes.

But, such modifications? To do what he did? Not required. Any marksman can kill anthing he wants to kill with any weapon. It's not about the weapon... it's about the the human who pulls the trigger, whatever trigger, whatever weapon.

What IS required is some REALISTIC GUN LAWS damnit! I just weep at the fact that that the gun-nuts oppose the anti-gun nuts and vice versa. Could they all just realize people... CHILDREN!... are dying?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:35 PM

200,000 Americans will be shot this year...

Me??? I learned "gun safety" and how to shoot a gun from the NRA... I was in an NRA shoot club... Had the jacket, the patches, the medals...

That was a long time ago... 95% of gun owners today wouldn't get along with the NRA people I knew way back then, and vice versa...

NRA used to be about gun safety... Now its about pushing as many guns into as many hands as they can... Safety??? What's that???

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:48 PM

Every man in Switzerland has a gun for national defense, yet the murder rate is very low. Why?

Because you're lying.

I already replied to that claim a couple of hours ago when you posted it in another thread.

Switzerland's murder rate is substantially higher than that of Austria, the country to which it is most similar in every other respect except gun ownership.

It also has a very high incidence of suicide by gun (though despite frequent claims to the contrary, its overall suicide rate is not all that high, less than double the UK rate and not much higher than the US).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM

True, Dorothy, but high schoolers don't get Glocks, Sig Sauers or AR-15s at the corner store in small-town Canada. They are sophisticated weapons requiring lots of paper work. Procurement of said weapons in the US appears to be much easier.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:58 PM

Reality check Bill D. It's more like this...http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/28/us-world-firearms-idUSL2834893820070828

And that info. is nearly 6 years old.

When the SEALS got Bin Laden, there was a full page ad in the newspaper advertising the gun company that made the weapon. A "quality product..."

Agree with Dorothy. And as a former teacher, I sure would like to see more than just the ABC's in schoolrooms. A closer monitoring of the student and what's in his mind might be useful...

When I was 14(guess), I had a friend named John that had a Nazi memorabilia collection. Not your shoebox collector. His GARAGE had the flag, the medals, books, a mini museum. A site even I could not believe at 14, His father had been killed by the Nazis. He knew the salutes, history, accents, and made me wonder what this kid does for fun...And what movie was playing in his head...

Then there was the story of a serial killer in India being hunted by the Police. He had killed a LOT of people. They could not get a photo. But somebody did a drawing of him, holding a large rock over his head. His weapon of choice. After crushing their skulls, he would then take their belongings.

The solution? Less guns? Are you kidding me? MORE "gun control?"...Don't think so...More "NUTBALL control?" Now we're getting somewhere...maybe

Tragically, it WILL happen again...in whatever form.

Peace...That which you concentrate on expands, and don't ask why a god wasn't there... look inside, and be the change you would like to see in others...BR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:44 PM

"More "NUTBALL control?" Now we're getting somewhere...maybe"

Here's a reality check for you...

Right now, control over them is after the fact. Anyone can purchase a gun in many states UNTIL they are shown to be felons or "nutballs".... and if they go to a gun show or the internet, even their "nuttiness" is not questioned! Not only that, but there are SO many guns about that almost any "nutball" can buy one ILLEGALLY or steal one! This boy got guns registered to his mother... then shot HER! Don't you suppose he'd know she had them?

Yes...I KNOW the US has the biggest problem! That's why I look for new ideas, not old statistics!

Now, Bob R... how you YOU propose we 'control' nutballs? Do you wish to lockup every vaguely disturbed or depressed teen! Many kids seem at odds & not well adjusted, then grow out of it!

Remember... they are free & innocent UNTIL they do something that makes headlines.

___________________________

Look at it reasonably.... 1)we are NOT short of nutballs, and in this stressful society, they are a growing problem. 2)Maybe 1/10 of 1% of us needs ANY guns in daily life, and most of those are police and those in wilderness areas who genuinely need them for protection and/or for hunting food.3)The police desperately wish that guns were not so easily available...partly because they- the police- are running scared and tend to shoot innocent people in certain situations!

Do NOT give me the line about killing people with large rocks! Or knives.. (READ my opening post!) This kid could not have done that amount of mayhem with a rock or knife.

THINK... don't repeat tired slogans and statistics!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:53 PM

I suspect my friends that what we are calling insane is more simply evil. In WWII the gas chamber people were not insane, just evil. I really think it is more of the I am a loser so hence I will make them all pay for the fact that I am a loser. I will be famous forever ... go out in a blaze of infamy. As long as those types of people are around, we can't stop it.

The availability of weapons, any weapons makes it impossible to police. My friends in other countries can't understand but we who live here can't either. The US is huge, we have cattle farms out west bigger than many European countries. The police cannot be everywhere, we have lots more people and sadly lots more violence.

It is the breakdown of the family unit I think. The lack of morals, the lack of spirituality or compassion for others. We have become a self nation. Look after ourselves, not others. He who dies with the most toys wins type of thing. Do anything for fame, or fortune. Heck look at the loser celebs that make sex tapes and release them and instead of outrage, they get stardom. You see like Rome when the moral compass is broken, then the unthinkable becomes standard.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:58 PM

You can make your own gun. Or even a cannon. And your own gunpowder.
I think capitalism is a big part of the problem. Kids spend so much time in daycare ,online and watching trash on tv.
Nobody raises them.
=(:-( I)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:01 PM

I spent so many hours trying to figure this out, there is no solution. I can only now say that I will do my best to make sure that when i am around anyway, I have the ability to make some sort of difference to protect others. Crazy that I even have to think like that but I do now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:07 PM

The Second Most Powerful Gun Lobby in the Country is Located in Newtown, Conn.
Jordan Sargent        

Today's massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn. happened in the shadow of the headquarters of one of the biggest gun lobbies in the country: the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which is just three miles away from the school. The NSSF pales in both stature and power to the NRA, but they still actively work to ease laws and regulations for gun owners and supporters.

Lydia DePillis of The New Republic reports that the NSSF has spent over $500,000 in 2012 on pro-gun lobbying (compared to the NRA's $2.2 million), most of which went to a D.C. lobbyist.

    The lion's share of that went to Patrick Rothwell, the group's director of government relations, who served for three years as chief of staff to the House Republican Policy Committee. He spent a lot of time this year working on legislation that would prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from regulating chemicals in gun ammunition and fishing equipment, and the organization has backed a slew of concealed-carry bills.

DePillis also reports that the NSSF spent $26,000 this campaign season and is frequently consulted by reporters writing facile "he said, she said" stories to give a pro-gun point of view. The foundation takes in $26 million per year and its CEO makes over $300,000 per year.

The NSSF's location in Newtown is an incidental coincidence, of course, but an unfortunate one nonetheless in light of today's events.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:12 PM

"In WWII the gas chamber people were not insane, just evil."

True, Dan, but what they did was legal because they passed the laws to make it legal. And therein is the problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:36 PM

Dan... (and Krinkle)- raising kids with 'morals' and "spirituality or compassion for others" is a goal, not a simple formula! The dangerous ones have merely changed- or added to- what they GET upset over! When do you remember us having that society you wish to return to?

No society in history has been without the crazy, uncontrolled, testosterone fueled, angry, anxious...etc... young men! Where do you suppose Ghengis Khan got his willing soldiers? He merely put them into situations where their instincts were directed like he wanted!

Now the world is more populated & crowded.... so, the total number of unbalanced ones in a society are ALWAYS increasing, and it takes only a few to increase the number of horrific headlines!
If we had the BEST morals and teachers and family principles imaginable, we would still have those who fall thru the cracks and do horrible things! We tell kids not to play with matches when they are 2... and usually keep matches out of reach, but keep firearms in the house where kids know about them.... and even if WE don't, someone they know usually has guns!

We spend more effort keeping our people safe from contaminated peanut butter than from guns!

You will NOT improve the 'moral climate' of families and cure kids of the stresses that make them want to hit & hurt others by repeating that slogan! We try to make toys safer, so kids don't swallow little parts or cut themselves, but as soon as they reach 18 or so and haven't done anything 'seriously' illegal, we let them have guns?

You will notice, I have not demanded we "take away everyone's guns". Even I know how hard that would be... but some folks will simply not entertain the IDEA of meaningfully controlling access to handguns, semi-auto or automatic rifles and ammo!

We will have more stories like this

Wanta read about one *I* knew about?

Remembering 8-11 (in Wichita)

My ex-wife was in that building when that 19 year old kid took a rifle and shot people on the street! One of his victims was a photographer for the newspaper who was shot dead in his car AS he responded to radio news about the shootings. It 'may' have gotten some national attention at the time, but that was before cable news and internet... but it was quieter, more 'moral' time.

who..me? cynical? naawwwww


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:41 PM

If you look at the link I posted, the number of registered guns in the USA has dropped significantly in recent years. There is some other very significant information there regarding states with gun laws vs those without. Look at where the guns are more prevalent, at where the laws are more restrictive at where the worst events have occurred. There is no significant correlation.

It is, imo, contemptibly stupid to believe that gun restrictions will make a difference. It is a waste of time, money and energy. Those who want them will find them, regardless. It is as feckless as restricting illegal drugs. Zero-tolerance did not solve the problem; neither will gun laws.

There are guns in Canada; we could conceivably have these types of events; did have the one in Quebec some years ago. But basic attitudes are totally different. There are highly significant historic/sociological differences. The USA has some serious work to do on changing the way it looks at the world and at lives of humans, and all animals. It does not seem to place as high a value on life as some of the more civilized countries. If it did, it would not be killing people in other countries, thereby setting a horrendous example for its young people. It is a militant-minded country that extolls the use of violence in TV, everywhere, and this attitude invades every aspect of life. Just look at "Stand your ground". It is legal to kill people.

Boy, am I ever fed up with that stinking attitude.

That young man was also a young child once. How 'bout looking at what went wrong in his life, or never went right, that brought him to the point of killing his mother and going on a killing rampage. That is where the answers are, where the time, money and energy could be well spent. How do we help each individual grow into the kind of person who nurtures, rather than kills? Hard to do in a country that extolls violence - but most people manage it.

Interesting that no one has mentioned Nickel Mines?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:46 PM

"More "NUTBALL control?" Now we're getting somewhere...maybe"
Nutball control is sadly lacking in Canada and this debate is ongoing here while the USA reflects on its great loss today! I am all for gun control but this is what a nutball with a knife can do:
Nutball


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:57 PM

Now is the time to take the 'battle' back to the NRA. Now is the time to have Representatives in the House who oppose gun control stand and be recognized for the last time because they will not be reelected. Now is the time to take away the NRA's power as lobbyists and as an organization with political clout. After today, they have NO credibility anymore IF you kick them and keep kicking them. Street fighting 101.

America thought President Obama would not win because some big money took out advertisements saying he wouldn't win. America proved itself wrong--or more precisely, proved that money can't buy the whole country. Do NOT let up on this. Your president has said he's willing to lead. For krissake, support him. If you belong to the NRA, withdraw your membership. Tell them--TELL THEM--no more bullshit, no more lies. Stop the American love affair with YouTube crap that glorifies some idiot in camouflage gear and a scope-mounted rifle. TELL your kids that "No, you cannot have the latest video game that teaches you twelve ways to shoot some poor bastard. And if I find it on your computer, you won't HAVE a computer!" Start taking back your country. Start with your kids and your Congress, and don't take NO for an answer.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:59 PM

What BillD says...

We are 100% on the same page on gun control... If there could be 110% then it would be 110%...

We are living with insane gun policies... Completely insane...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 11:01 PM

Dorothy Parshall ... well said. In regards to your statement "The USA has some serious work to do on changing the way it looks at the world and at lives of humans, and all animals. It does not seem to place as high a value on life as some of the more civilized countries." I'm posting an article from today's (ironically) Der Speigel regarding the sufferings of U.S. drone operators.

excerpts from this article ..

""Did we just kill a kid?" he asked the man sitting next to him.

"Yeah, I guess that was a kid," the pilot replied.

"Was that a kid?" they wrote into a chat window on the monitor.

"Then, someone they didn't know answered, someone sitting in a military command center somewhere in the world who had observed their attack. "No. That was a dog," the person wrote.

They reviewed the scene on video. A dog on two legs?"

pain continues after war for American drone operators


biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Beer
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 11:18 PM

I have been reading the responses on the different threads related to this tragedy looking for an answer. When BillD posted and said; "I hesitated starting this, but there needs to be a place to share ideas...and just vent". That struck me as a good start. When Pres. Obama said that he would do this or that, I hung my head because I thought that as much as he wished he could prevent this from happening again, they were false promises. Not that he doesn't want to stop it all (as we all do.), but it would take more than 4 years and the next Presidency to make a change. When the news broke my very first thought was, there will be a lot more. What a terrible thing to think.

There are a lot of heavy hitters responding to this thread and all I will ask is that we respect one another and as BillD said; "but there needs to be a place to share ideas...and just vent".
If were going to vent how about doing it in a respectful manner.
Adrien


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 11:29 PM

Oh I completely agree that the varied gun policies across the states is nuts. Some states very firm control, others no control at all nor even a bg check. Now even if those loose states start tighter controls, there are more guns then people .. And if we did a Mexico and say no guns at all allowed, It won't work. Henry is correct anyone can make a gun out of anything. Likewise explosives, sharp edged weapons. Nothing will stop it we are less safer .. the solution is family and a society that rewards hard work, honesty and compassion and since that is degrading .. no chance of anything getting better. The only thing one can do is protect to the best of their ability those around them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Janie
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 11:31 PM

Dan, I despair when I read your posts on these threads. I like and admire you so much. But you are so "out to lunch" on this issue that it boggles my mind.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Beer
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 11:34 PM

Well said Dorothy.
ad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 11:35 PM

Another school tragedy today but this time in China ..

knife attack at chinese school wounds 22 children

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 11:52 PM

Sorry, friends, but I am getting tired of revisiting this same conversation. Everyone says what they always say, and no one does anything. Maybe we should forget the crap about blaming each other. It's an easy way to avoid dealing with the reality.

Instead, let's mourn the dead. Every time something like this happens, we need to do something that shows we feel the loss. Maybe there should be an official national day of mourning for each person killed. We could all wear black, lower the speed limits, call off the megabucks lotto, give up steak and dessert, and deal with the grief.

And let's take care of the victims. Pay the medical bills, cover all the memorial costs, make sure the survivors get the support they need. Provide for the costs of readjustment, whatever they are. And let's not forget about them a month later, like we always seem to do.

I know you're all kind and decent people, but I also know that you, and everybody, runs away from this--no one wants to think about the emptiness that those murders created, and we'd all rather fight about gun control and such things than confront it. The thing is, that more than anyone realizes, these discussions contribute to the problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:01 AM

I agree GUEST,Stim ... but Bill D's purpose to this thread was to vent... we all feel the pain, but this thread is to express our feelings as to what the hell is going on.

The China link I posted relates to what Bill D. mentioned in his first post to this thread ... and if you read the CNN article in that thread you will notice the region in China where this incident occured they have for some time now imposed controls (licencing) of the purchase of large knifes.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:32 AM

I think mental health is the issue.
More resources for the sick.
Dealing with them earlier rather than after it's too late.
=(:-( I)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:31 AM

I think guns are the issue. In Australia we changed our gun laws after the Port Arthur massacre, and there was a huge buy-back.
Our strict gun laws have saved thousands or Australian lives - look at the statistics. Much, much lower rate of murders and suicides after the change in legislation and the confiscations.

Yes, mentally ill people need health services. But all people need to live in a society where ordinary people don't get access to weapons. Farmers need them on farms, to put animalks out of their misery on occasion, anyone else should just go and lease them in a rifle range if they want to play with them. There is no reason for people to have them in their homes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:59 AM

We have armed home invasions, rabid animals, robberies, sex crimes.
We need guns.
=(:-( l)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:10 AM

That's like a catch 22. But it's possible to do gun recalls, we did it here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:40 AM

We have very vicious criminals.
They'll have guns and we won't.
Society is in the process of breaking down.
Mass murders are only one symptom.
Stock up on food and arm yourself.
=(:-( l)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:41 AM

It wasn't just 'a gun' that killed those innocent souls in Connecticut yesterday. It is our refusal to admit that we have become a Loaded-Gun-Species, that is now tragically Disconnected, Disinterested, Dysfunctional. We will never put this Right whilst we blame everyone else. EACH of us has The Power To Change This World Around To Goodness. Never before has that Power been needed so greatly. Never before have we needed to Look At Ourselves so Deeply and to admit How Wrong everything has become.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:08 AM

It is, imo, contemptibly stupid to believe that gun restrictions will make a difference."

IMO it's contemptibly stupid to defend a status quo that allows twenty innocent kids plus others to be slaughtered. You are never going to be able to weed out everyone who has some sort of mental instability (the desire to own a weapon would count as that in my view), and you are never going to stop the suicide alone in their room, you'll never stop the person in a fit of rage that has blinded them to reason.

You're never going to be able to assess everyone for 'mental instability' (a relative term if ever there was one, and completely meaningless in the real world), and that needs to be accepted as fact, unless you're interested in introducing some sort of apartheid for people who don't meet some arbitrary criteria. Not nice, not practical, not going to happen.

Guns are enablers. They enable people in a variety of ways, and none of them positive. They enable people to kill quickly and from a distance, when they choose. They enable scared and frightened people to believe they are defending themselves or others against the ever-present but invisible threat they perceive to exist 'out there'. They enable the poor sods who corrupt the second amendment in the name of a delusional patriotic ideal that is appallingly self-centred and thoughtless, not the spirit of a militiaman struggling to build a better society for him and his family.

Alongside this is the fact that many people in the US (some of my good friends among them) seem to accept the horrors that come from a country awash with guns; they are becoming dulled to the violence endemic in their society:

"Tragically, it WILL happen again...in whatever form."

Are you fucking kidding? It will if you let it happen, and that statement seems to indicate that you're happy to let that happen. More dead kids? Fuck that. Nutballs? What sort of nutball would make that statement?

I am a Brit who loves the US deeply. I love the friendliness and curiosity of the people, their positive attitude to life and their ability to tackle problems with cheerfulness and determination (not like us whinging Brits). They are a wonderful, diverse and intelligent nation who are heading into a very dark place indeed, and they need to pull back now.

Forget all this "right to bear arms" crap; you're no less a person for not carrying a weapon, in fact it shows a strength and resolution more befitting of your nation, and no-one doubts you would all fight for your country if it was threatened, but that threat is now your own helplessness in the face of this bloodbath.

Ditch the guns. In the end, it is the only way and now is the time.

If this isn't the rubicon, what the fuck is?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:23 AM

Agreed Lizzie and well said. That's a first step. Next I would implore everybody to contact their congressman, senator and the president and let them know if they want your support then they have to do something about this. They've got to find a solution. They've got to turn their back on the gun lobby and their tainted money and find some way to prevent or at least make these tragedies less likely to occur. Let's rekindle the national conversation and keep it going.

And Krinkle, when you move into your cave have a large boulder placed in it's mouth so no creeps can get into it (or out of it).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:41 AM

I've never been to America. i don't get it.

Do ORDINARY people - not farmers and hunters, not cops and robbers - own guns? Do most householders have a gun?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:44 AM

OK, Mr Krinkle, (not Kris, I suspect) if mental health is the issue, not guns, why does the US have hugely more gun deaths than most other Western nations?.    Other nations have mental health problems--just not the stupidly easy access to guns-- to solve their perceived problems-- that people have here.

The Second Amendment, combined with US pathetic ignorance of history, is a curse.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:45 AM

Go turn your gun in. I've been in the military..
I'll keep mine. I know how and when to use it.
=(:-( l)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:06 AM

I've been in the military too.   But I didn't come out paranoid--that's not a requirement, you know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:14 AM

You want only the government to have guns. How nice for them.
And if we don't have guns, the government won't need them anymore, either.
Peace on Earth in our time.
I think you've hit on something, by Jove!
=(:-( O)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:16 AM

Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, says that this tragedy is the fault of gun control supporters - that it could have been prevented if more people, including teachers, were armed.

WTF??? This kind of shit is precisely wherein the problem lies. Wake up America - only when the worship of gun ownership and glorification of violence are seen as an aberration and people like Larry Pratt are considered to be mentally defective will you start to become a civilized society.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:32 AM

People behave in the presence of a gun. I've seen it with my own eyes and gun.
No brag. Just fact.
Mr. Pratt is right.
=(:-( l)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:40 AM

The problem is not the number of guns, but the uniquely American attitude toward them. In the American mythos, the gun is "The Great Problem Solver". Our films, television programs, video games, and popular fiction romanticize the gun's ability to set things right. They tell us that going out in a blaze of glory is an admirable thing to do. So, why should we be surprised when some guy who feels he's been given a raw deal lashes out in precisely the way he's been repeatedly told is heroic?

The key to solving gun violence is to send a countermessage that guns don't solve problems. They create them. It's not going to be an easy message to send, if for no other reason than that the current "Guns are cool!" message makes so much money for the mass media. For every film which shows how an act of gun violence destroys lives, there are dozens of others depicting gun-wielders as heroes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:40 AM

Some common sense is what is needed:

1. No one needs an assault rifle except the military... You don't hunt with them... You don't sport shoot with them... You kill people with them...

2. No high capacity ammo clips... If you haven't hit Bambi or the target with the first 10 rounds chances are that you won't with the next 20 or 30 rounds...

3. Restore background checks...

4. Registration of handguns and proficiency certificates required to register them...

None of these will "take away your guns" unless you are not qualified to shoot one half-way safely, are nuts or a criminal...

Time for sanity...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:46 AM

"only the government..."'       Please lie down, Mr. Krinkle, and tell us how long you've been having this paranoia. I'm sure we can help you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:08 AM

Interesting graphic on the demographics of gun ownership in America: http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/AugustRNS_GunOwnership.jpg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:10 AM

Historically, people in England had a common-law right to bear arms. Over time, laws were passed restricting this right, most recently as a result of shootings similar to the one we have sadly just witnessed. The difference between here and the US is that there was massive public support for these controls. The history here shows that it is possible for a society to disarm itself, if there is a willingness to do so. Sadly, even in the aftermath of tragedies such as this one, US society doesn't seem to be willing to do this.

Of course, there are still guns in circulation here and they are mostly in the hands of criminals. However these seem to be mainly drug dealers and street gangs, who mostly use them against each other. The courts here come down very heavily on armed robbery, so this is unusual and most ordinary criminals don't carry guns. My house may get burgled or I may get mugged in the street, but I don't expect that either of them will be carrying a gun and don't feel a need to arm myself against them.

I, and I think most Brits, look at the American fetish with firearms with bewilderment. I can understand its historical roots, but I cannot see how it has a place in a modern civilized society.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:23 AM

By the way, Mr. Krinkle, you've seen these black helicopters flying around?    You know they're from the UN, don't you.    And that fluoride in the water.   You know the government put it there, of course. You'd better look into getting your water from another source. You can't be too careful, you know. Just maybe that's the reason for your impotence. You might want to consider that.


But it's good to know you're being vigilant and alert.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:32 AM

I have been thinking about the consequences of the fluoridation lately.
I'm not sure what trouble it's causing, but I'm sure it is.
I'm not impotent, though.
The guns are here to stay.
That's just a fact.
Not far from me is a town where every home owner is required by law to own one.

=(:-( 0)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:02 AM

"The guns are here to stay."

You poor, impotent thing. How many dead innocents will satisfy your bloodlust?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:16 AM

Why is no background check or investigation to see whether there is a legitimate need for people buying body armor?

Seems to me it's an indicator of some sort. If there's no legitimate need (and what, exactly, is a legitimate need?) at the very least the purchaser would bear watching...

Linn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:26 AM

I'll leave the stupidity to the troll(s) and trollfuckers.

Al, I don't believe most households have guns, but I haven't been in most households. Where I live, it's rural. People here go hunting, and they have guns to shoot vermin--in most cases that's some sort of animal they consider dangerous or obnoxious that strays too close to their homes. Every once in a while, I hear what could only be automatic or semi-automatic gunfire. We have our share of paranoid nut-jobs, but as long as they don't shoot first, I can deal with them. They're killing targets.

No one I've talked to in my neighborhood has said they have a handgun. Most of the people I've known in my life haven't own any guns at all.

The guns ARE here to say. Anyone who thinks laws will make them go "poof" is delusional. The box is open. There are probably millions of guns in the US, and they aren't going to disappear, but we need better control.

I don't know that if he hadn't been able to get his mother's guns, he would have made a bomb, started a fire, or done something else. I don't know... really.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:30 AM

Kennesaw, Georgia gun law:

1982 ordinance [Sec 34-21][18]

    (a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefore.
    (b)Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.



Note: crime rate dropped by half after this law was passed.

In 2007, the city was selected by Family Circle magazine as one of the nation's "10 best towns for families".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

Jeri, keep in mind that about 1 in 3 homes has guns.

"The FBI estimates that there are over 200 million privately-owned firearms in the US."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

Howard Jones your post above gives me hope that someday, as a society, we in the USA will outgrow our infatuation with guns. Of course it will take a Herculean effort and a lot more heartache.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:01 AM

Some gun owners have one gun. Some have ten. I don't think they're spread around evenly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:02 AM

That's what I said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:16 AM

I couldn't see that, 9.
I am realizing, looking at statistics and not going from what I've witnessed, what I've believed, a lot more homes have guns in them that I'd though.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:34 AM

I've just read someone on facebook saying that these murders were part of an orchestrated campaign to try and get gun control started in America- 'and once it's started it won't stop'.

Please, American friends, tell me that this not a widely-held view on your side of the pond??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:45 AM

I'm awake to another day.... and more of the same arguments.

"..anyone can make a gun out of anything."

First, that is hyperbole... even experts need some basic items. And second, most people would NOT be able to....or want to. Third, most of those who could would need detailed instructions and/or an expert looking over their shoulder. Fourth, those who could and wanted to would need ammunition, and even fewer could make powder and useful shells for their non-standard creations. Finally, if, in a society where there were few **legal** guns they did make illegal ones, and USED gun & ammo in criminal ways, they wouldn't last long!

Ok... here I go, venting.. The stupidest argument going is that "if more people were gun owners and trained to use them, all would be safer!"
Think about it! How many people do YOU know who would never be competent to own a gun and trustworthy to use one properly? Those people are called victims!
Please remember... these gun crimes are **usually** committed by people- usually young males- with mental, family, and societal issues! THEY can be 'trained' to use a gun and legally licensed before they choose to do something stupid! Those who can't pass a usage & mental test..or are too young... can steal one!! Even those who are not likely to intentionally shoot up schools can accidentally shoot their family & friends... and do... every day. And some of you want to argue that MORE guns are the best policy? Quote: "BULLSHIT"! Unquote.

It makes NO difference even if you manage to reduce the percentage of idiots and disturbed individuals by psychology, testing, and various other methods... there WILL be more than you can find & deal with- like ants at a picnic. The ants, at least, are doing something natural, antwise. We deal with ants by controlling the ways ants can bother us! We cover our food, eat at a table,etc. We do not attempt to train other ants to fight the first ants... or train all family members to squish ants!

So... you don't like my silly metaphor? Let's cut to the chase.


With a steady supply of unstable people seemingly guaranteed, we either control the ways they can bother us or we accept more stories like this. By all means... do whatever possible to diagnose & treat mental instabilities for all sorts of reasons! Just don't kid yourselves that YOU.. or any combination of relatively sane, trained gun owners... can seriously control these ants unstable people! Remember... there WAS a guy with a gun when Gabby Giffords was shot who nearly pulled HIS gun and shot the wrong person! Put 12 like him in that crowd, all 'reacting' at once....or even more in that movie theater... or that mall. Those who have seen a lot of military combat KNOW stories where 'trained' soldiers shot the wrong people in hectic circumstances.....same with 'trained' police.

Let's be honest... guns are in many ways similar to drugs. The more people mess with them, the more addictive they are! Even those of you who are not likely to EVER do anything stupid with them can't quit talking about them... comparing details, firepower, ammo, etc. You flatly do not WANT to lose your guns, and you create complex stories to justify your addiction! For every story where a gun was used wisely in self defense, there are a hundred where a tragedy occurred.... and THAT is a statistic that only needs tweaking to clarify the truth.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:48 AM

"..., tell me that this not a widely-held view on your side of the pond??"

No..it is not 'widely' held.. but like all such conspiracy theories, some are mentally ready to believe it to fit with their other theories.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:56 AM

Noreen, in my small corner of the planet that does not seem to be the prevailing opinion. However, the NRA has long promoted an attitude that some gun owners have bought into that reads, "If we let 'em ban any type of gun they'll be coming for our deer rifles directly."
I'm a gun owner (though I haven't used one for more than 30 years) and most of the gun owners I've known (with some notable exceptions) have been very responsible and are in favor of limiting public access to certain types of firearms and intensive background checks.
Just my experience.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:09 PM

It's a view held by nuts. Can't conceive of anybody slaughtering his mother, 20 children and 5 (?) other adults with such a total disregard for life an obvious rage to REALLY be interested in anything else, especially not gun control.

I know this is a heated topic and is bound to get more heated. My not-nice reference to trolls above is more about the ones who obvious don't give a shit about the children or the situation but seem to try to dispassionately provoke those who usually can be provoked. It wasn't about those who are angry, but ones who just want to yank chains.

I can see having guns for hunting, but we're rapidly proving that the whole reason for the 2nd amendment doesn't exist anymore. The fact is that the guns ARE out there, and I can't see any good way to make them not be.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:25 PM

Just to keep things straight, the Connecticut killer used guns that were purchased legally, by his mother, a kindergarten teacher.

Further, I think that any comparison about the danger of a madman with a gun with one with a knife is ludicrous, As is equating the dangers of a homemade zip gun with a AK47.

Given the number of guns available in the US, I don't believe that laws aimed at limiting the number of guns available would work, though background checks and elimination of gun-dhow sales without such checks would be a good ideaa, as would having strict penalties on private ales of guns without any records or checks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM

We will agree to disagree Janie. Given the nature of the violence lately, am I really that out to lunch. However, being X law enforcement and X everything else I guess I am a bit partial to responsible citizens owning firearms. I have no worries with the proper checks and training. Like I said many times it is the gun show purchases that scare the hell out of me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:43 PM

The latest is the guy's mother was NOT a kindergarten teacher. They say she may have substituted, but last I heard, they didn't know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:18 PM

Yeah, but Dan, the problem is that there AREN't proper checks and training.

And it isn't only the gun show exception - there are states where you can walk in off the street and purchase whatever you want, no questions asked.

Until there are rational and universal national requirements ("states rights" be damned) its a lost cause.

Best,

Greg

(responsible firearms owner & hunter)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM

RUPERT MURDOCH: 'When Will Politicians Find Courage To Ban Automatic Weapons?' 15DEC2012


Are the Brits here getting their "news" from one of ol' Rupert's outlets?

First, only two guns were taken into the school, both handguns. They were concealed (illegal).

An AR-15 (or similar) rifle was found in the car but not used. It is NOT an automatic.

Last I heard, there were about 16,000 active permits for automatic weapons (aka machine guns) and only one owner of such a permit has ever killed someone since machine guns were banned in 1934. He was a cop who found his wife with another man and shot her, not him. I believe he used his service revolver, not the automitic rifle anyway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:44 PM

The weapon found (in the car, I think) was a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle -- which has absolutely no purpose other than combat.

Why was it one of the weapons registered to the shooter's mother? And the two handguns were a Glock and a SIG Sauer both 9mm, both semi-automatics that fire up to 5 bullets per second.

Expensive, too. All of 'em. And registered to his mother.

Linn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:48 PM

Headlines on CNN this morning say that **4** handguns were found in the school... yesterday they said that the boy had 'access' to 5 guns.

It seems he had more than he needed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:49 PM

Jack, who the hell are you to be calling me a LIAR? I quoted the stats I have at hand, AND I was comparing them to OUR murder rate.
I demand an apology.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:58 PM

PeeDee, give up on the automatic(machine gun) Vs. Semi-automatic bullshit- so some folks aren't conversant with firearms design & function. Doesn't really matter to the point under discussion.

Its a smokescreen & doesn't advance the rational discussion of solutions to the continued policies of idiocy in the U.S. at the behest of the NRA, those they are able to scare into hysteria, and those with cold, dead brains.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:00 PM

They just said 3 guns were found IN the school.

I'm beginning to think this will only get better when people who want a gun just because they WANT a gun because they maybe one day might have to shoot someone to save a life start believing that their right to do so is not worth even one child's life.

or maybe, just when there's a link between the two things.

It's the whole culture of being entitled/having the right to own something whose sole purpose is to kill.
...just in case
    ...because the person WANTS a gun.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:04 PM

OK the nuts factor is already through the roof, and I'm probably included. Have fun beating the figurative crap out of each other...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:12 PM

Jack Campin, apparently, the stats I had are out of date. I just found some new one at the Guardian web site.

To call someone a liar when they were simply mistaken calls for education, NOT name calling.
I admit to being wrong, are you man enough to apologize?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

One more point. Consider this,as I said, every Swiss man has a gun. What would our homicide rate be if EVERY American man had a gun?
That was my point, and still is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:37 PM

"And the two handguns were a Glock and a SIG Sauer both 9mm, both semi-automatics that fire up to 5 bullets per second."


"Semi-automatic pistols, as opposed to fully automatic pistols, fire a single shot each time you depress the trigger until the gun's magazine is empty."


Well, even a realistic rate of one bullet every one or two seconds would do two things: empty a 9-round clip very quickly, and hit nothing (a good idea, in this case).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM

Just a reminder... machine pistols and rifles (automatic fire weapons) can be turned into "machine guns" in about five minutes with a file and screwdriver but they are not the weapon of choice for a crazy person with their feet on the ground.

And... yes, yet again (sorry)... the weapon of choice for sane citizens is good gun laws.

Jeri... "trollfuckers"... excellent term. I may put that on a post-it and stick it on my monitor. Not that I won't but if it stops me just once, that's a good thing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:59 PM

I keep hearing that "no responsible gun owner would do this" or "no responsible gun owner would do that". The problem isn't the responsible gun owners. It's that we let irresponsible people have guns. There are a few things we could do that would allow responsible gun owners to keep their guns, but let the rest of us have a little more confidence that the person next to us on the freeway or behind us in the grocery line isn't both mentally unstable and carrying a gun:

A requirement for extensive training for all gun owners.

Extensive background checks and a demonstrated need before we give concealed weapons permits.

The right to sell a gun should be very difficult to obtain. A fascination with guns should probably be a disqualifier.

No automatic firearms of any kind.

Any gun that's confiscated gets destroyed.

All guns should be securely locked up when not in use. Stolen guns get that way because they aren't adequately secured.

Allowing a gun to fall into the hands of your unsupervised child should be a felony.


As for the statement that if guns are illegal only criminals will have guns, I would like to point out that if guns are illegal, someone has to become a criminal before they use a gun. The way things are now, many crazy people who shoot others don't become criminals until they open fire. If the criminality happened earlier in the process, we'd have a better chance of keeping it from getting to the shooting stage. Also, most people are law-abiding and wouldn't buy a gun if it was illegal to do so. The problem is the ones who buy them legally and then go crazy or allow their guns to be stolen by other people who go crazy. Besides, if only criminals have guns, it will be easier to tell who they are.

There are statistics that show that a gun in the home is four times more likely to be used on a friend, neighbor, or family member than on an armed intruder. It makes me want to quiz people about gun ownership before I visit them. It makes me angry that people are allowed indiscriminate gun ownership anyway.

As soon as the gun lobby can convince me that all gun owners are responsible, I'll support the so-called right to bear arms.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:04 PM

Gnu, I was thinking more of troll groupies, and we have a cluster of them... maybe a couple clusters. They're "anybody's". You're a guy who gets pissed off sometimes. (or maybe you just like it when I talk dirty)

Automatic weapons aren't much good except when you can't take the time to aim. Semi-automatics are actually pretty effective, because you can adjust your aim without stopping to chamber another round. I can't remember what firing a weapon that isn't at least semi-automatic is like, though.

I'm still thinking about this issue, and I likely will be for a while. Civilization often requires us to do things we may not want to do for the good of the many. Many people regard capitalism as evil. I think it can be ok if people voluntarily give up their "right" to make ridiculous amounts of money. I think we have to let common sense be more important than defending our "rights".

I don't have any hope that people are willing to do that. Not to pay taxes, not to make stricter gun control laws, not to cut back using fossil fuels, not to do anything inconvenient to them.

Jeri Crabbypants


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:20 PM

A friend of mine in Canada--out west--on the day he first heard about gun registration in this country said, "I wonder what the government is going to do that I won't like."

He loaded his own ammunition, kept his handguns and rifles locked up, used them only on a target range. Hell, he didn't even hunt. He collects guns and uses them on the range, that's it.

I think in America that people don't trust their government. I can't blame them. They have allowed organizations like the NRA to actively influence politics.

I grew up with an unloaded rifle (.22) kept in the shed along with hammers, screw drivers, nails, drills, etc. It was just another tool. Until I was deemed to be responsible enough by my Uncle Bob I was allowed only a single shot rifle and only allowed to use .22 shorts. Later, after demonstrating I could carry the firearm safely and handle it safely I was given the privilege of having a .22 with a five-round magazine. I was also allowed to use a pump .22, but he trained me to count the cartridges being loaded, and god help me if after a few hours of being in the woods looking for rabbits or squirrels and taking the odd shot or two at a stump or dead tree I couldn't tell him exactly how many shots I had left. I lost track once--thought I had seven left but had six (something like that) and that was it for hunting or target shooting for a few months. He was an ex paratrooper and took firearms very seriously, .22 rifle or not. The mindset with guns today is very different than it was in my childhood. It does worry me somewhat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM

There's an interesting article in the Seattle Times today that looks at some facts about guns. It seems to show that gun control works to reduce gun violence.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:30 PM

After reading Huckabee's crap about god being taken out of schools and so 'that's why these things happen' I went looking for this:

"Oakland, Calif., April 2, 2012

A gunman kills seven people and wounds three in a shooting rampage at a Christian college in Oakland."


I think America has got to

1) publicly destroy the NRA
2) publicly destroy FOX

It ain't perfect, but it's a start.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:48 PM

"(or maybe you just like it when I talk dirty)"

Ooooh baby, oooo baby... don't stop! Heheheheee.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:52 PM

The solution is to take the responsibility of handgun law and control out of the states and into a federal handgun carry law and ownership law. Then we see consistent effective control.   Greg is right, some states you are required nothing, others it is very hard .. But again as long as there are gun shows you can keep making laws with a huge loophole that negates all of them. That is what we have now


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:54 PM

Huckabee is a complete asshole, Bruce. Always was, always will be.

Problem is, there are a several million assholes just like him - ignorant, fundagelical, bain dead demagogic opportunists & their followers.

Howinhell do we neutralize THEM???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:57 PM

I dunno, Dan - how the hell do we organize effectively to promote a rational approach & reasonable legislation ???

Been wondering this since I took my NRA life membership card 35 years ago, sent it back to them, and told 'em to shove it up their arse.

ASny suggestions appreciated!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:58 PM

We can't Greg, the freedom of speech works for good guys and shits also sadly. I try to ignore his crap.

Jack
Kendall was a state law enforcement officer. He has forgotten more about firearms and their safe use then you could ever learn. Knock it off cause you are talking about something you know nothing at all about


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:02 PM

Yeah, Greg... In essence that's what I did with my NRA membership card, too... In reality, I just ignored them...

Today's NRA is not the one I was proud to be part of in the 50s and 60s... Back then the NRA was 100% about safety and responsibility... Today's NRA is 100% about $$$ and political power...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:09 PM

Greg
lawmakers that will do the right thing and not cave in to the NRA pacs
sadly I don't think that will happen. We have few lawmakers that look at the good of the people anymore, just those who care about getting elected and the money it costs to run


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:10 PM

I was a certified NRA handgun instructor till I told them to shove their membership up their kaboose also years ago. It ain't about the sportsman anymore. It is now about power and money


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:34 PM

I couldn't be arsed to research any of it (I am a Canuck) but surely there must be a group of reasonable people who are trying to get the USA feds to make some good gun laws? If not, why don't youse take up the cause? A website don't cost much... the expertise exists among you... oh... wait... I said this before a couple of times... nevermind... just like NObody did before.

Oh... yeah... until you whiners and compaliners get off yer collective asses and DO something, I'll give up my guns when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers on accounta if you lazy, unorganized sods can't get your shit together on something as important as saving 5 year old children from being shot... read my finger.

Go ahead... make my day.

Jeri... how's THAT or dirty talk? Hehehehee.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:43 PM

John, most of the things you listed are in effect and have been for some time.
The problem is bad guys don't give a squat about laws!

It's not just a mantra, gund don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people.

I don't have the answer, but taking my gun aint it.
BY the way, Olddude, I was also a federal lawman.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:46 PM

Jeri, here's a crash course on how to read gnu's fingers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:49 PM

We don't want ***your*** gun, Capt'n...

That's the knee-jerk reaction any time anyone talks about making a few sensible changes to gun ownership...

"Obama is going to take my gun away!"...

No, he's not... He might ask you register it and prove you know how to handle it safely...

Too much to ask???

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:55 PM

It's certainly true that it's no longer about the sportsman--if it ever was.   Why would a sportman need a pistol anyway? I understand that in the UK, for target shooting, the weapon is borrowed and returned.   A much more civilized approach than ours.



The NRA needs its teeth pulled. This can only be done if enough citizens pressure their reps to stand up to that group and its obsession with the 2nd Amendment.

We can start by pointing out that the 2nd Amendment has lost any usefulness it ever had--and its theory of national defense via militia was a disaster from the start.

Instead of a sensible situation, we have the idiocy in which you can order guns--not just rifles--from a catalogue. ( Jan gets one of these.)   What kind of security is that for the general public against nuts with guns?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:03 PM

Please, Kendall - nobody's talking about "taking your gun" - that's NRA propaganda to whip up hysteria among those that don't know any better. I wouldn't have placed you in that category.

And by the way, guns don't kill people - BULLETS kill people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:10 PM

"gund don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people"

Same old shite we get time after time. Listen, moron, just ask yourself two simple questions:

1. What is a gun designed to do?
2. Why do you own a gun if you're not prepared to use it for the purpose for which it was designed?

To my mind every single person in the US who owns a gun is responsible for this atrocity. I hope you can live with that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:15 PM

I am fed up of the pathetic guns don't kill people, people do line.

fOr the brain dead....

The ownership of guns means that those who have the propensity to kill people makes it easier to kill people, and/or kill more people.

So, repeating what I said in another thread.


Dear NRA,

Are you celebrating your latest wonderful acheivement? You must be proud!!!!

WELL????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:16 PM

"1. What is a gun designed to do?"

Shoot projectiles a long distance with sufficient force to penetrate an object.

"2. Why do you own a gun if you're not prepared to use it for the purpose for which it was designed?"

I owned many when I hunted deer, moose, rabbit, etc. I hope that answers your questions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:34 PM

...from the NRA website:

NRA offers America's preeminent shooting, training, education and public service programs that foster the safe, responsible ownership and use of firearms.

Some of you folks don't quite "get it", but private gun ownership is guaranteed by the US Constitution and the NRA demands that we keep the traditional standard of "reasonable restrictions" in place.

The NRA educates more people about the safe and sane use of firearms than all other US organizations combined. Sorry they ain't perfect, you know, like the Post Office, FEMA or Microsoft.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:52 PM

I just read an article that said each of the kids--6 or 7 years old--was shot three to eleven times with a rifle. The first person killed was the principal.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:00 PM

This group covers the bases:

"September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows
Andrea's reminder that guns are only part of the problem:

Yesterday's tragedy strikes at our hearts and leaves us - again - shattered with pain for the shear needlessness of it. There are no words that will assuage the victims' families grief. The wounds will remain. It will take a very long time to know how to hold the sadness and the rage and also, eventually, learn to go on living with the loss. We struggle to understand what happened out of our need for an explanation of what has violated all sense of rightness.

We need to understand that the gunman and his family are victims too. Perhaps victims of the society we have responsibility for.

This tragedy did not come out of nowhere. We need to frame our thoughts as we go forward around the the fact that guns are an expression of the violence we as a culture condone. We do not want to divide over whether we campaign for gun legislation OR focus on the culture that promotes violence which cuts spending for mental health, education, and ending poverty and includes justifications for foreign policy decisions and the support of a war machine that produces and provides weapons to governments as well as homegrown gunmen. It trains young people to kill primarily innocent people in wars that bring no peace and then come home broken in body and mind, changed by what they've seen and done. It promotes as news and entertainment that which normalizes and glorifies violence. It is big business!

There are many many forms of violence. Guns and the culture of violence are of a piece. Eliminating the tools of destruction is only part of the solution."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:02 PM

100% with you on that one, Dorothy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:04 PM

No, pdq, the United States military trains more people on the safe and sane use of firearms, followed by the various police academies...

The NRA runs a distant 3rd and guess what??? It pisses off more people than it could train who want no part of them...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:09 PM

The statement is about private organizations and that should be obvious.

The military and law enforcement play by different rules and you know that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:15 PM

Go to the NRA's site. What they talk about first and foremost is "protecting the second amendment."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:19 PM

""I owned many when I hunted deer, moose, rabbit, etc. I hope that answers your questions.""

Oh come on Bruce. How many deer, moose, or rabbit did you shoot with a Sig Sauer 9mm, or a Glock, or an AR 15?

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM

If the 2nd Amendment is ended, there will be no reason to give civilian gun safety classes. Logical, eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:29 PM

Same worn out argument about the 2nd amendment...

Reality is that the NRA has cherry-picked the 2nd amendment all to hell and back... They refuse to ***allow*** for a full discussion of the entire amendment or the fact that the 2nd amendment is a single sentence...

No, all we hear is the same old worn out blah, blah and more blah from the NRA and it's supporters...

In other words??? The only discussion we are going to have is our talking points, not anyone elses, and we have the money to shut you up or have you voted out...

The NRA way or the highway...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:32 PM

The Kennesaw, Georgia example is interesting. I live in a village of about the same size where householders are prohibited from owning firearms without a stringently-controlled licence (and where handguns are banned outright) and I would guess that our crime rate is probably the same or even less. We haven't had any murders either, so far as I'm aware, and don't seem to think that this is in any way remarkable. There have been a few burglaries, but I'm 100% confident that the burglars won't have carried guns.

I realise we are not comparing like with like, and this is a simplistic comparison. Nevertheless the fact remains that it is possible to live safely without having guns, if a society chooses to do so. America seems reluctant to make that choice, even in the most appalling circumstances.

And yes, we do understand it's about the 2nd Amendment. However you're no longer a frontier society, you're the richest country in the world, with the most powerful military - you don't need a militia any more to keep the redcoats away. Isn't it time that, as a society, you started to grow up?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:41 PM

If the 2nd Amendment is ended,

Stop with the bullshit, PeeDee - no one is talking about "ending the second ammendment".

Try to at least hold on to a modicum of reality.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:45 PM

Thank you for reading that article, Howard Jones.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:06 PM

Most parents aren't fit to raise a gerbil.
I want a gun to protect myself from their children.
=(:-( l)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:06 PM

leveler, I'll match my IQ to yours or anyone else on this forum.
Greg I'm NOT in that category! I've said it may times the NRA is trying to scare people into thinking their right to own a gun is in danger, HELL NO!

Guns dont kill people   god damn it People kill people! Use your frigging head! No gun gives a shit whether you live or die, that whacko behind it might.

I suggest certain people lay off the insults, you know damn well they are not allowed here. If you can't make your point without insulting someone, shut up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:17 PM

I've said this before and I'll repeat it; if I had my way there would be no such thing as a semi auto or full auto firearm.

If I could do it, I would make every gun in the world disappear. I am NOT a gun nut, I AM a realist.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:18 PM

"...,private gun ownership is guaranteed by the US Constitution... "

That is one interpretation of what the 2nd amendment says!

It also says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State"

The entire POINT was that competent citizens were expected be part of a **militia** when the NEED arose... and they were expected to bring arms, because there were no mass-produced standardized weapons at that time! Those who wrote that amendment had NO idea what would happen after 1865 or so when guns began to be made that would take mass produced ammunition!
In 1790, guns were seldom used except to defend home & country or to hunt.
Now, that vaguely worded document is interpreted in such a way as to allow any yahoo who is of age and not a felon or 'proven' crazy to stock up on assault rifles! And conservative presidents appoint judges who uphold that silly old idea! The framers would be appalled!
We HAVE a militia! And they are ISSUED the guns they need at the appropriate times!

Sadly, we also have thousands of wanna-be militias who just 'like' owning big, fancy things that go "BANG". It is a HOBBY! A BELIEF! Not a NEED!
They lie to themselves about the reasoning ...until they believe it, so they can pretend to 'tell the truth' to everyone else!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM

BTW, there is another thread specifically about the Newtown incident.

This thread is more generic and was started so the ususal suspects in "gun grabbing" could vent without being disrespectful to the Newton victims.

I doubt that anyone posting here knows what the Federal gun laws really say.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:23 PM

CIRCULAR REASONING: This fallacy uses a claim as its own grounds. A popular bumper sticker reads:
"Guns don't kill people; people kill people." This argument is circular—nobody ever claimed guns go around all by
themselves shooting people. Of course people kill people. But this "begs the question" as to whether guns make it
easier to do so. In fact, circular reasoning is often called "begging the question." Many times we fail to examine our
most strongly held beliefs, so that when they are challenged, we resort to circular reasoning as a defense.

As Eddie Izzard said: "They say that 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people.' Well I think the gun helps. If you just stood there and yelled BANG, I don't think you'd kill too many ..."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:28 PM

If you take a room full of people without guns there is a 0% chance of anyone shooting anyone...

Can't say that if half of folks in there have guns...

People with guns kill people...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:41 PM

2nd Amendment Annotations

"
Prior to the Supreme Court's 2008 decision in District of Columbia v. Heller,1 the courts had yet to definitively state what right the Second Amendment protected. The opposing theories, perhaps oversimplified, were (1) an 'individual rights' approach, whereby the Amendment protected individuals' rights to firearm ownership, possession, and transportation; and (2) a 'states' rights' approach, under which the Amendment only protected the right to keep and bear arms in connection with organized state militia units. Moreover, it was generally believed that the Amendment was only a bar to federal action, not to state or municipal restraints.

However, the Supreme Court has now definitively held that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that weapon for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Moreover, this right applies not just to the federal government, but to states and municipalities as well.

In Heller, the Court held that (1) the District of Columbia's total ban on handgun possession in the home amounted to a prohibition on an entire class of 'arms' that Americans overwhelmingly chose for the lawful purpose of self-defense, and thus violated the Second Amendment; and (2) the District's requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock also violated the Second Amendment, because the law made it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.

The Court reasoned that the Amendment's prefatory clause, i.e., '[a] well regulated

Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,' announced the Amendment's purpose, but did not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause, i.e., 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'"


{Bill D wants to turn a prefatory clause into a Santa Clause}


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:56 PM

The Supreme Court has cowered from the NRA... Not only does the NRA have lots of $$$ but they have other (wink, wink) ways of scaring people...

One day the sun will come out and we'll all see that the emperor has no clothes and a future Supreme Court will get it correct, rather than "right"...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:02 PM

Kendall... how dare you inject simple logic! Why, that only means another hundred posts to a ANOTHER gun thread that has seemed to become about people who want to vent and have no logic. Oh, they make conjectures and leaps of faith and inferences and state statistics, but when you bring simple logic into the discussion, you confuse them. You must confuse them because they keep trying to prove such logic false based on arguements and statistics which don't prove such logic wrong.

LISTEN to Kendall and so many others, readers. A gun CANNOT kill a person. IT IS A FACT. YOU CANNOT DISPUTE THAT.

So... ya wanna be a part of getting rid of gun crimes? Get your shit together and do something about it and stop telling legal and responsible gun owners you want to take their guns away (go ahead and say you don't... we don't believe you and WE got guns so fuck off with that shit). Wake up... stop whining... and DO something about it that makes SOME SENSE!... for a CHANGE! Join the legal and responsible gun owners and press for good gun laws. Until you all get a grip... gun nuts and anti-gun nuts, wee children will be shot. It's shameful that you all cut off yer noses to spite yer faces.

Stop your bullshit bickering and DO SOMETHING about it. I've said it before. I'll say it once more. If any of you really care, you'll take responsibilty and DO SOMETHING about it. It ain't rocket science. It's just common sense... it's simple logic. You have the wherewithall but have you got a spare minute or the balls to try to do what is right?

Put up or shut up, fer fuck sake!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:04 PM

Although I don't own a firearm, I guess I would say that rifles or shotguns could be considered necessary tools in many rural locations in America - for varmit control or hunting, not for use against human intruders. Still, there were one or two times that I wished I had a rifle in hand when I approached strangers on my property. Having a big, friendly, black dog at my side worked pretty well, though.

My next-door neighbors killed a couple of bears on their property last year, and I keep wondering whether that was necessary. The bears really haven't been much of a problem. They raided our garden a couple of times, but I've only seen a bear once in the ten years I've been here - and that was a thrill. And yes, you hear about mountain lions, but I've never seen one.

There are also reports of rabid raccoons in the area - that does scare me a bit, and might be the one thing that might make me want a rifle. There are rattlesnakes around, but they haven't been a problem - and I have only seen one snake that might have been a rattler. I think I'd call the rattlesnake removal service if one took up residence around the house.

And even though I see some justification in owning firearms in a rural area, I have to say it makes me really nervous. More than once I've encountered people shooting into the area where I'm legally hiking. Now, THAT is disconcerting.

But in urban locations, I just can't really see the need for a firearm. There is a certain amount of risk of violent crime anywhere in America, but I really don't think it's all that bad. I worked for thirty years as an unarmed federal investigator, and I took pride in the fact that I never avoided work in any location because I thought it too dangerous. I used my head and stayed away from certain areas at certain times of the day, but I always did my job and knocked on the doors and did my honest best to find the people I needed to get my work done. Other investigators would write off certain areas, but I never did. I met only one situation where people pointed guns at me, and I admit that was a little disconcerting. They were in a remote location, an area where I admit it might be justifiable to have a gun. I have an appointment, but then these people had second thoughts and were afraid I might be the person who had threatened to kill them. So, I had to talk them down. I think if I had shown a firearm, they would have shot me.

It's a difficult issue. Gun owners are absolutely correct when they say that the vast majority of gun owners are responsible, and would be responsible in a dangerous situation. The trouble is, there is a good percentage of people who have attitudes that would make them irresponsible and dangerous as gun owners. Many of them wanted to be cops, and it was my job to investigate them and weed out the ones who would be irresponsible. One year, I had two Border Patrol Agent applicants who had shot themselves in the buttocks, trying to tuck their guns under their belts. I don't believe those applicants got the job. I had coworkers who carried firearms despite the fact that they were not supposed to - these were people who thought their badges didn't give them enough authority. I had one coworker and a number of applicants who used their firearms to put power behind their road rage.

Admittedly, it's a small number of gun owners that are troublesome - but the troublesome ones can be very dangerous if they have a sidearm. I'm sorry that the troublesome ones make it difficult for all gunowners; but it seems to me that the danger presented by the small minority of irresponsible and dangerous gunowners, outweighs the safety brought about by the many responsible people who carry firearms. So for the general good of society, I think that handguns should be outlawed and rifles and shotguns should be strictly regulated. Semi-automatic and automatic firearms (anything with a magazine) should be outlawed altogether. Taking time to load forces a shooter to take time to think before shooting.

I know gun owners think otherwise, but the rest of us consider them to be a serious danger to our personal safety. The fact that my neighbors have guns makes me feel nervous, not secure. What guarantees that their bullets are staying on their property.

I'm saying this as one who has worked unarmed in law enforcement for a thirty-year career. And by the way, I qualified as an Expert Marksman in the U.S. Army.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:06 PM

The 2nd Amendment has always meant that. Witness the fact that all the Founding Fathers, including the very people who wrote the Constitution, owned guns.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:07 PM

It will still take 2/3rds of congress to amend the constitution.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:17 PM

A gun CAN kill a person, despite the logical error the NRA has been peddling for generations. It is one of several causal elements in every gunshot death. If any one of those elements is missing, the death will not occur. It's impossible to sort out which people are likely to kill and which or not - but it is possible to eliminate or at least strictly control guns. Since it's impossible to control the people, maybe we need to control the guns.

And yes, pdq, it is true that the 1781 Constitution allows Americans to keep and bear arms. Within the context, it appears that this is for the purpose of maintaining a militia - but this is debatable. Nonetheless, in 21st century urban America, does it make sense for members of a closely-packed population to be armed?

Seems like too many people consider the U.S. Constitution to be infallible nowadays, even though they aren't afraid to question the Bible anymore.

As for me, I think questioning both of them, is healthy. And even if a 2/3 majority can't be found to change it, I still believe that slavish adherence to the Constitution can be wrong, wrong, wrong.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:18 PM

Jeri said: "People here go hunting, and they have guns to shoot vermin--in most cases that's some sort of animal they consider dangerous or obnoxious that strays too close to their homes."

I don't see a big problem with that. With regulations, hunting rifles and shotguns could be checked out before and during season; surely they are not needed in the home itself.

Vermin are most often disposed of with small caliber weapons- like a .22. And a 22 also works as a defensive weapon in the home. Contrary to the movies an injured person doesn't shrug it off when he or she is hit even with a small caliber like that. It just plain doesn't feel good. A 22 can even kill- it's just less likely to be lethal.

I don't even see a problem with a gun collector collecting his heart out. As long as he keeps them in the equivalent of a bank safe deposit box.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:24 PM

like I said we can agree to disagree. I am all for arming good and rational people against the mad dog killers out there today to protect others in shopping malls or on the street just minding their own business. However, only if the proper training and background checks are done. Until the 2nd Amendment is changed, I support it as I do all of the Constitution. Keeping a firearm away from a complete law abiding person who has been trained and knows safety and has no BG issues doesn't do anything but help the mad dog killers. Me I am sick of burying our kids by these people. My heart breaks for those families and their loss


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:30 PM

When a person carries a firearm they are acting in a manner of a police officer. The same rules and training need to be applied across all the states. That would make sense instead of a bunch of loopholes that only arm criminals. Police officers weapons are secure at home. Their kids don't get them and do this stuff because they are trained. Likewise most folks that have carry permits in the states where they are hard to get. Sadly it varies so much and with all the loopholes it is far to easy. Get a federal law. The ATF regulates auto weapons they can on handgun carry also. Close the gun shows ... we would all be safer


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:31 PM

The 2nd amendment is obsolete. We have enough gun laws now to paper the Washington monument. They are not working! Bad guys can't read.

So, everyone here has an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. We need answers. Realistic answers. Stiffer penalties? strict controls? The prisons are full now, and every time the subject of building a new jail or prison comes up there is a hoo rah about N.I.M.B.I. and too much money, it will raise taxes.etc.

Now, if the "Know it alls" will address this?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM

...perhaps it needs to be displayed more clearly:

The Court reasoned that the Amendment's prefatory clause, i.e., "[a] well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," announced the Amendment's purpose, but did not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause, i.e., "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:35 PM

For the thousandth time: We don't need to change the constitution... We just need judges with the courage to interpret the 2nd amendment in it's entirety and not just half of it...

Plus, with this polarized country there will be no more amendments to the constitution... As a democracy, you can put a fork in US... We're done...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:45 PM

Kendall... again with the logic? To hell with that. I wanna see anyone step up to the plate and propose a new org... the NRRA? National Rifle Regulations Association? The NFA... National Firearms Association? Come on ALL you anti/gun nuts! DO something. Don't ween... git er dunn! You can start it, here, tonight. Right NOW. Who's willing to step up to the plate and take a swing at the ball?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:49 PM

Come on down here and do it, gn-ze... I'll go to work for ya'... I'll carry your briefcase... Fetch yer coffee...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:12 PM

Bombs don't kill people either. Not on their own - they just lie their on their own doing no harm to anyone. The same goes for canisters of poison gas, or ampoules of anthrax. Totally harmless unless some human being comes into the picture...

And 'arms', I would suggest includes all those things. Isn't it great that Americans have the right to stock up on stuff like that, and any laws to stop them doing so would be unconstitutional.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:17 PM

Only unconstitutional in the eyes of coward justices who, like everyone else, have been bullied by the NRA and their redneck & rabid foot soldiers...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:28 PM

"Witness the fact that all the Founding Fathers, including the very people who wrote the Constitution, owned guns."
Perhaps the fault lies with these founding fathers. Not to throw in a red herring but did not many of them own slaves as well? It is not hard to comprehend how guns could be used to control slaves!

Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 49% owned slaves.

The slave owners were:

Richard Bassett (DE)
Jacob Broom (DE)
John Dickinson (DE)
George Read (DE)
William Houstoun (GA)
William Few (GA)
William Samuel Johnson (CT)
Daniel Carroll (MD)
Luther Martin (MD)
John Francis Mercer (MD)
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer (MD)
William Livingston (NJ)
William Blount (NC)
William Richardson Davie (NC)
Alexander Martin (NC)
Richard Dobbs Spaight (NC)
Pierce Butler (SC)
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney (SC)
Charles Pinckney (SC)
John Rutledge (SC)
John Blair (VA)
James Madison (VA)
George Mason (VA)
Edmund Randolph (VA)
George Washington (VA)
George Wythe (VA)
Robert Morris (PA)

There are borderline cases among the above.

Robert Morris did not personally own slaves but did own a slave ship and invested in plantations using slaves. I've listed him as a slave owner since he was a direct participant in slavery and the slave trade.

Some slave owners emancipated their slaves (Richard Bassett and John Dickinson). Other slave owners opposed slavery and supported abolition (Jacob Broom and William Samuel Johnson). Other slave owners opposed the slave trade if not slavery itself.

Of the 26 slaveowners, 19 owned multiple slaves and relied on slave labor for their livelihood.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:33 PM

Illegal attempt at cross-topic trolling. Sandy is fined 5 posts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:40 PM

Perfectly valid historical parallel, demonstrating another way in which the Constitution was a pretty flawed document, which badly needed a good few adjustments to be fit for purpose.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:41 PM

Actually, there is relevance to what Sandy has posted and that is...

...historical context...

Let's keep in mind that handguns, the weapon of choice by today's murderers, were used only for dueling... Rifles fired single shots and then had to be reloaded which was a time consuming process...

This was the Founding Father's world... Not AK-47s in the hands of children...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:52 PM

You nailed it Bobert. I can't even picture an automatic flint lock.

Judges live in fear that one of their rulings will be overturned and that would prevent them from climbing that success ladder to a higher court. To hell with justice; they are no better than any other politician.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:55 PM

From: pdq - PM
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:41 PM


Yes, pdq... I know what the courts have decided. You evade my point that **courts** are made up of people, and often people with agendas or prejudices.

"prefatory clause" be damned! It is STILL not a clear statement...except possibly when viewed in the 1790s context! So... several judges voted on a linguistic interpretation... that is binding. That doesn't make the reality any easier to reconcile. Some things just don't make sense when viewed objectively.
(Imagine, with all the tests available, trying to get tobacco approved by the FDA today! MONEY and addicted people make it VERY slowly being removed. And many dead people from lung cancer & emphysema! Maybe enough dead kids will eat at the acceptance of those AR-15s...hmmm?)

The last defense when logic fails is to quote statistics and laws....got any more, pdq?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:05 PM

As pdq says, we don't need to amend the second amendment. Take another look at it:
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The stated purpose for the amendment being obsolete, the amendment itself must therefore be obsolete and therefore moot.

Seems to me that's good reason for the courts to ignore the second amendment altogether.

Thanks, pdq.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:11 PM

Yup, the 2nd amendment is obsolete... I mean, what if the Founding Fathers have put in an amendment endorsing slavery??? It'd be gone by now... Thomas Jefferson warned us that we'd have to mess with their starting point constitution...

Guess the NRA didn't get the memo...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:26 PM

This is the last time I am going to point this out, but "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" is an introduction to the statement that has meaning, that being "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

That was true 230 years ago and was reaffirmed in 2008 by our Supreme Court.

If that bothers people, they should look up ways to ammend the Constitution and get started.

Good luck.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:28 PM

Welll... I ain't goin anywhere except to bed, Bobert. And, I cannot come dow there an get yer job dunn, even if you had any decent tea (coffee? yeccchhh!).

A HUNDRED times again... shit or get off the poSt the lot a yas. Ya wanna get guns off "the street", do it. If youse who wanna ween here spend yer time weenin here don't do it, ya should thank yer lucky stars that yer able ta have guns and yer fellow citizens do have guns on accounta I read in the newspaper every day lately about some government bombin it's own citizens. Ain't gonna happen in the good ol USA... IS IT? There's a tad a good old boy logic ya can't refute.

Read a thousand years a yer history and tell me the rich don't subjugate the poor... with the barrel of a gun. Flower power sucks compared to gun powder.

Good gun laws are good but bad gun laws are bad. Figure it out, grow a pair and FORCE your governments to do the right thing and enact good gun laws. Use that thing you type twaddle on for better use. The keyboard is mightier than the gun, to coin a phrase.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:35 PM

I also have the greatest respect for my friends that disagree with my position. You are not wrong either, as both approaches have not seemed to work as this stuff just continues I can only hope it stops.   Bill is a very good and very smart person, so is bobster and the others that disagree with me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:37 PM

Sorry, it really made no sense to me what the two things had in common. You pretty much had to have guns to keep slaves, though. Well, except American Indians had some slaves (more like indentured servants won in wars, I gather), but they kept them from running away somehow.

Anyway...
The constitution was written after the US War with Britain, which was won by a militia including a bunch of regular guys with guns. That's the frame of reference.

So I'm sorry I jumped on you, Sandy. It just didn't seem logical. Lots of thing don't, these days.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:46 PM

"Oh come on Bruce. How many deer, moose, or rabbit did you shoot with a Sig Sauer 9mm, or a Glock, or an AR 15?"

None, Don, but neither is that what I said. I wrote that in response to another poster. The only rifles (never owned a pistol) I ever used were a 22, 303 (British), 308, 30-30 and 30.06. I have no use for handguns or assault rifles. (And I once used an FN that fired 7.62 ammunition, the then NATO weapon from Fabrique Nationale, but it belonged to the Canadian government. The sole purpose of that was killing people, which I never did.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: mg
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:55 PM

I have no enchantment with guns. I have no desire to own one. It does not make me feel like more of a man as that is the least of my worries. I wish I had been a nurse or secretary in that school, been properly trained, had access to locked guns, and had taken out the shooter, possibly losing my own life. Perhaps only women should own guns..seems most problems are caused by young men. And Old Guy I appreciate your offer to protect us and especially the young. It is too dangerous a world, even the seemingly luckiest, most prosperous parts of it, to give up our maybe not first..but one of our more immediate lines of defense. Create all sorts of obstacles to weed out the nuts..perhaps put an age limit..test, retest, give drug tests, etc...but the day will come..has come when we need someone with a gun, one of the good gals, to take out someone else misusing them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:00 PM

Jeri,
No offense taken.
I think McGrath and Bobert and Kendall caught my intended point. It is of course about context. As well as the militia point, the second ammendment describes flintlocks and even the ammunition that went with the guns. It is the folly of fools to think that it applies to todays assault weapons, anymore than to think that slavery was acceptable either then or now! It is indeed unfortunate that the fools that perpetuated the folly were members of the US Supreme Court! The solution can only be with a demand from the good citizens of the USA to make changes and to tell politicians, judges, founding fathers, and the NRA to "Fuck Off"!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:24 AM

I'd hate to live in fear the way our US friends seem to do. I've lived on this Earth for 65 years mg, but I've never needed 'someone with a gun......to take out someone else misusing them', and the reason is perfectly simple - hardly anyone has a gun here. In 65 years I've never seem a gun in private hands, except of course shotguns owned by farmers and wildfowling aficionados. So the possibility of any of us being faced with one of oldude's 'mad dog killers' waving his Glock in our faces is virtually zero, close enough to zero as to be not worth getting our panties bunched over.

Kendall's oft-repeated mantra - that guns don't kill people, people kill people - is right, up to a point, that point being that people are considerably less likely to kill people if they can't do it from a distance with a gun. The type of killer who shoots a classroomful of kids isn't a hero, he's not brave, he's a coward who kills at distance so that his victims have no chance to fight back. Take his gun away and he's impotent.

There's very little chance that Americans, brainwashed from birth with their 2nd Amendment, are likely to understand or accept the UK view that people are safer when guns are outlawed, so there's no point friends bashing friends over the head with opposing opinions on that score, but I know where I'd rather live, and it's far more comfortable without guns.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:51 AM

Glad I live in AUSTRALIA


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:54 AM

A pity that the Second Amendment didn't state in its entirety: "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

It does seem to me that if that is what they meant that is what they would have said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:13 AM

Harry knew so very much about the Human Mind. Long before others did, Harry knew. He saw inside. He felt the pain. He understood entirely.

"It is an early Monday morning.
The sun is becoming bright on the land.
No one is watching as he comes a-walking.
Two bulky suitcases hang from his hands.

He heads towards the tower that stands in the campus.
He goes through the door, he starts up the stairs.
The sound of his footsteps, the sound of his breathing,
The sound of the silence when no one was there.

I didn't really know him.
He was kind of strange.
Always sort of sat there.
He never seemed to change.

He reached the catwalk. He put down his burden.
The four sided clock began to chime.
Seven AM, the day is beginning.
So much to do and so little time.

He looks at the city where no one had known him.
He looks at the sky where no one looks down.
He looks at his life and what it has shown him.
He looks for his shadow it cannot be found.

He was such a moody child, very hard to touch.
Even as a baby he never smiled too much. No, no. No, no.

You bug me, she said.
You're ugly, she said.
Please hug me, I said.
But she just sat there
With the same flat stare
That she saves for me alone
When I'm home.
When I'm home.
Take me home.

He laid out the rifles, he loaded the shotgun,
He stacked up the cartridges along the wall.
He knew he would need them for his conversation.
If it went as he planned, then he might use them all.

He said Listen you people I've got a question
You won't pay attention but I'll ask anyhow.
I found a way that will get me an answer.
Been waiting to ask you 'til now.
Right now!

Am I?
I am a lover who's never been kissed.
Am I?
I am a fighter who's not made a fist.
Am I?
If I'm alive then there's so much I've missed.
How do I know I exist?
Are you listening to me?
Are you listening to me?
Am I?

The first words he spoke took the town by surprise.
One got Mrs. Gibbons above her right eye.
It blew her through the window wedged her against the door.
Reality poured from her face, staining the floor.

He was kind of creepy,
Sort of a dunce.
I met him at the corner bar.
I only dated the poor boy once,
That's all. Just once, that was all.

Bill Whedon was questioned as he stepped from his car.
Tom Scott ran across the street but he never got that far.
The police were there in minutes, they set up barricades.
He spoke right on over them in a half-mile circle.
In a dumb struck city his pointed questions were sprayed.

He knocked over Danny Tyson as he ran towards the noise.
Just about then the answers started coming. Sweet, sweet joy.
Thudding in the clock face, whining off the walls,
Reaching up to where he sat, their answering calls.

Thirty-seven people got his message so far.
Yes, he was reaching them right were they are.

They set up an assault team. They asked for volunteers.
They had to go and get him, that much was clear.
And the word spread about him on the radios and TV's.
In appropriately sober tone they asked "Who can it be?"

He was a very dull boy, very taciturn.
Not much of a joiner, he did not want to learn.
No, no. No, no.

They're coming to get me, they don't want to let me
Stay in the bright light too long.
It's getting on noon now, it's going to be soon now.
But oh, what a wonderful sound!

Mama, won't you nurse me?
Rain me down the sweet milk of your kindness.
Mama, it's getting worse for me.
Won't you please make me warm and mindless?

Mama, yes you have cursed me.
I never will forgive you for your blindness.
I hate you!

The wires are all humming for me.
And I can hear them coming for me.
Soon they'll be here, but there's nothing to fear.
Not any more though they've blasted the door.

As the copter dropped the gas he shouted "Who cares?".
They could hear him laughing as they started up the stairs.
As they stormed out on the catwalk, blinking at the sun,
With their final fusillade his answer had come.

Am I?
There is no way that you can hide me.
Am I?
Though you have put your fire inside me.
Am I?
You've given me my answer can't you see?
I was!
I am!
and now I will be,
I will be,
I will be,
I will be,
I will be,
I WILL BE!"

Harry Chapin - Sniper - Youtube


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:28 AM

There are some very sharp minds here, all have an opinion of what's wrong with America, none with a realistic solution.

All you foreigners are tyrying to walk a mile in our shoes...they don't fit!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: mg
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:29 AM

they also use kilometers...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:35 AM

I have a friend who brags that he has an AK 47 that will fire 50 rounds in a matter of seconds. I ripped him a new one. He laughed.
Connecticut has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the USA, yet, one paranoid woman and her fucked up son got by them.

My question is: How do we keep guns out of the hands of criminals and whackos?

I'm still waiting for that apology, Jack.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: mg
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:36 AM

Half of us will never understand what it is to be young and male, socially inept or socially rejected, especially by girls...we do not know how to educate these young men, we do not know how to integrate them socially..we do not know how to or when to medicate them if absolutely necessary. We do not know how to monitor their drug use. We do not know why so many are ADD and autistic and just plain odd. We need to humbly admit this and look for answers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:40 AM

I tend to avoid adding to threads like this because, in general, they polarise pretty quickly, with the usual opposing people promoting the usual opposing arguments. However, two assertions in the argument strike me:

1. The Kennesaw, Georgia gun law ordinance - where every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition. Quote: "crime rate dropped by half after this law was passed". I simply wonder how having this ordinance in place in Newtown would have made any difference to what took place. A mentally disturbed person - probably intent on killing himself as well as others - wouldn't have given a damn. And who could possibly have stopped him in a classroom at the time?

2. I've heard it said, over and over again, that people must have the ability to own firearms because, if they don't, there will be no protection against all the criminals with their illegal guns. And you'll never get rid of all the illegal handguns. Interesting attitude, that last one. I was watching a documentary on the Space Shuttle last night, about it docking with a space station, the crew carrying out various tasks in space, and then it's re-entering Earth's air and landing safely and precisely. Amazing isn't it, that one of the most intelligent, technically excellent, clever, constructive and ingenious nations on earth can't even begin to make a start about thinking through the problem of getting rid of illegal guns. It just throws up its hands in horror and says, "Oh we can't possibly do that!"

Think of all the logistics involved in creating and maintaining a huge army, navy and airforce, planning an invasion, countering terrorism, utilising complex intelligence networks, etc., etc. But you'll never get rid of illegal guns? Why not make a start?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:52 AM

Apples and Oranges.

There is one thing you can count on; no country will ever invade the USA as long as most of us are armed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: mg
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:55 AM

A janitor. A nurse. A security person. Perhaps the principal, who died. Sometimes these things go quickly and sometimes there would be enough time if there was access, training etc. I remember doing research at a school that was in a gang infested part of town and finding out that the librarian had been a marine in Vietnam. I think that he would have been more than able and very quick to respond. I think that some school personnel are discretely armed where crime is fairly likely. They probably do not broadcast the fact. There emerge situations where one wishes that they might have been.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:06 AM

There is one thing you can count on; no country will ever invade the USA as long as most of us are armed.

Well... think of 9/11. Modern "invasions" - in the widest sense of the term, the violation of another country's space - happens in more ways than one these days.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:08 AM

I think that some school personnel are discretely armed where crime is fairly likely.

But probably not in Newtown - "one of the safest places in America".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:49 AM

If I remember correctly, the Second Amendment ties gun-ownership to the maintenance of a "well-regulated militia." So, just spit-balling here, what if the firearms acquisition certificate (or whatever) came with compulsory enrollment in the National Guard?

Like the Sedentary Militia of colonial times in Canada, these folks would be required to show up at the armoury on quarter days and go to the range to prove that they are maintaining their weapons-handling skills and safety drills. No physical fitness test or other professional military stuff; just range practice and counting noses.

Anybody too frail and infirm to do that much probably should not be handling weapons at all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:49 AM

""I have no use for handguns or assault rifles.""

That was precisely the point of the question Bruce, since hand guns are what most US city dwellers have, and assault rifles are the weapon of choice for rural gun nuts, of which the USA has far too many.

It is rarely the owner of hunting rifles or shotguns (the kind of weapon you would have used) who runs amuk and slaughters innocents.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 07:13 AM

""There is one thing you can count on; no country will ever invade the USA as long as most of us are armed.""

With respect, Kendall, there isn't the slightest chance of any country invading the USA, whether the US citizenry are armed or not, so that comment is a complete irrelevance (as, I suspect, you are well aware).

Also, the 2md amendment said nothing at all about invasion, rather being aimed at a putative tyrannical US government.

You've had a string of those in recent years, culminating in the well deserved defeat of the Tea Party lunatics, due my friend to ballots, not bullets.

Guns in private hands do not solve problems, they create them.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 07:31 AM

kendall...it is now coming out that Adam had Aspergers. He was *not* 'Whacko' and your comments above are highly insensitive. As I stated in another thread, had Adam been helped more by people who *truly* understand Aspergers, than maybe, just maybe, what happened last week would *never* have happened.

This is not just about Gun Laws and Guns, but it is about the refusal of the Human Species to face up to the fact that Autism is increasing very fast and that it is affecting society in many, many ways.

Despite this happening, NO government is looking into the causes of Autism or pouring money in to those people/families who so desperately NEED help in so many ways.

Here, John Elder Robison, former special effects designer for the rock band, KISS, (remember the smoking guitars?) explains not only his life as someone with Aspergers, but also his research into the TMS research now being done, which enabled him to feel, REALLY FEEL the emotions of another person, for the first time in his life.....

Ingenious Minds - John Elder Robison - Part 1

Ingenious Minds - Part 2

John, on the TMS Research now being done

The 'whackos' are the ones who refuse to acknowledge what is going on, thus helping to ensure that more and more of these tragedies will continue to happen, because of their stubborn refusal to see what is right before their eyes....And of course, the Corporate Medical Bastards who are ensuring that they don't 'find a cure' too fast, because they're making a fecking fortune from drugging MILLIONS of children up to the eyeballs with drugs which affect their brains each and every day.....

ALL are tragic here...those innocent people who died and a young man who imploded bigtime after 20 years of struggling in a way so many may never even *want* to understand because their minds are happy to continue to call very sensitive, intelligent, creative and confused people as 'whackos'.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 07:58 AM

"Flower power sucks compared to gun powder"

I don't agree Gnu. Gandhi freed an entire nation from brutal oppression using non-violent methods, and as Howard Jones pointed out above, after Dunblane and Hungerford here in the UK we tightened gun laws, made the possession of handguns illegal and we are all for the better.


"The keyboard is mightier than the gun, to coin a phrase."

Too right!


"All you foreigners are tyrying to walk a mile in our shoes...they don't fit!"

Would it be too much of an affront to your nation(man)hood to take some counsel from a concerned, caring neighbour? For some of us that visit the US frequently, have good friends there and love the place deeply this whole episode is very painful to watch; more so as the writing is writ so large on the wall but too many heads are in the sand. All this "guns don't kill people" bollocks that's being spouted is not doing your nation any favours. Guns are enablers, and they enable people to kill lots of other people quickly.

If killing seven-year-olds doesn't disgust you enough to get rid of the guns, I can't think of what will and the future is too bleak to consider. Change the laws, dump the outdated, ludicrous second amendment, (or change it - you're a democracy) and sideline it's adherents to the lunatic fringe where they belong.

Please.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:13 AM

Here we go again, commenting on the obvious. We all know that something should be done about guns in the wrong hands, the question is WHAT? Repeating the same old tired opinions is getting to be a pain in the ass.

Lizzie, I have a grandson with Autism. He is not a whacko. I was referring to mentally unstable people.Criminally insane.
"Only a Mothers certain belief that her child is exceptional keeps her from drowning them at birth." (Lazarus Long)
No, I am not suggesting that the shooters Mother should have drowned him at birth, my point is Mothers tend to overlook serious flaws in their kids.

Enough of this crap. Come up with some solutions or shut up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:28 AM

Couple of things...

First, what good does it do if Connecticut has stringent gun laws or not if you can go to a gun show in Virginia, back a U-Haul truck up, load it with AR-15s and AK-47s and a $5 book telling you how to covert them into automatic weapons used in war???

What is needed are some uniform federal laws...

Second, as for the American people having their say in any gun control laws??? Ain't gonna happen... Because of re-redistricting, mostly by Republicans, we do not have a House or Representatives that represent the overall wished of the American people...

Lastly, the NRA and it's mouth-pieces will sandbag with their usual bag of BIG LIEs and half-truths and this shooting, like all of them, will be not bring about meaningful changes... Or any changes, for that matter...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,gilllymor
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:44 AM

Speaking of crap:
"There is one thing you can count on; no country will ever invade the USA as long as most of us are armed."

That wasn't even true in 1812! It just sounds like another feeble homily to justify an antiquated notion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:44 AM

The one big mistake that the Founding Fathers made IMHO, was to assume that future generations would have the plain common sense to react to changing times, by adjust the constitution to allow for those changes.

They simply assumed that those who came later would have as much intelligence as they themselves.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:54 AM

The 2nd Amendment will not be repealed or amended in our lifetimes. It takes a 2/3 majority in both houses of Congress just to propose an amendment. That's difficult, but possible. But that proposed amendment must then be ratified by 3/4 of the states. That means 13 states voting "No" kills the proposal. I can name at leas 15 states in which the chances of a majority of voters voting "Yes" are about the same as your chances of winning the Powerball lottery without buying a ticket.

As I said a number of posts back, the only way to solve the problem is by gradually eradicating the pervasive American myth of guns as agents of empowerment. The fact is that guns rarely empower, they usually dominate. If we don't want to be dominated by whatever fool happens to have a gun in his hand, we need to realize that fact, let go of the old myth, and take steps to free ourselves from that fool's ability to dominate us.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:05 AM

It seems clear that the NRA and other pro gun lobbyists believe that the occasional massacre of innocents (say two or three a year) is an acceptable price to pay for unrestricted gun ownership. The fact that politicians appear terrified to stand up to the pro gun lobby suggests that they believe this view is shared by a majority of voters. We would be foolish to believe that this hideous tragedy will lead to any changes in gun laws. Apart from anything else guns are big business, just listen to that money talking.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:11 AM

Thank you, Don T.

I have been in two situations in my life when guns were pointed at me. In neither would my having a gun have helped in the least. In fact, had I reached for a weapon in either case I'd have been shot. (That's not bullshit; both instances really happened. And they happened in Montreal.) In fact. unless a third party had shot either of those guys just through the earlobe area of the head causing their gun hand to spasm open instead of squeeze shut, I'd have been shot anyway, so intervention wouldn't have helped. (That thing about the earlobe area is likely known to Kendall, Dan, gnu and Rap, but I doubt many others here would be aware of it.)

The UKers here have no way to get their heads around the notion of people having guns. I understand that and wish it were the same here, but it isn't. Jaysus, Joseph and Mary does North America have guns. There have been really stupid laws passed in the US about people's right to bear arms, stand your ground being the stupidest, imo. It gives people an excuse to go look for trouble and get personally involved.

I would suggest that anyone using a gun in the commission of a crime be sentenced to life in jail, no parole, period. I would also suggest that anyone killing someone in the commission of a crime be similarly sentenced.

The people who have gone on rampages -- I notice folks getting into Asperger's stuff needlessly, because anyone who does that kind of shit IS mentally unbalanced to begin with and Asperger's has little to do with it -- certainly has issues. Also, I would like to see a gun law that holds purveyors of assault weapons and handguns to account. Believe me on one thing: if any of my family were involved in a tragedy of this nature, I would spend the rest of my life finding the person(s) ultimately responsible for making the weapons available to a killer, then I would do my best to dispatch him, her or them. I would do so without remorse and without mercy, and I do not much care who thinks what of that.

I would like programs that glorify violence taken off television, and video games that do the same outlawed. We have become a violent society in North America. I think a good beginning would be to put major security checks in the way of anyone wanting to procure a weapon that is semiautomatic or automatic, and that goes for handguns, too. Then, people found to be in possession of said weapons without a license to have same given mandatory 20 years sentences, no parole. IMO, killers lose all their rights save one the moment they kill. They retain only the right to a trial. That's it, that's all. Sounds harsh? Compared to 20 dead 6 and 7 year olds, it sounds just about right to me.

As a BTW, I think that even mentioning Asperger's in this case does a disservice to all people with mental difficulties and disabilities. The guy who dropped the A bomb on Hiroshima wasn't labelled in that manner. Nor are the various 'legal' killers around the world: SAS, JTF 2, SEALS, HRT, Delta, GSG 9, etc. IMO. And if you want to email me or message about this, do so. Most folks here know how to locate me. I've never made a secret of it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM

Amen, Bruce. Well and nicely put.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:50 AM

Well..once again I went to bed after pointing out the awkwardness inherent in the 2nd Amendment. Several have agreed and made the same point in different words. And in his usual clever manner, pdq responded by RE-quoting the amendment and saying this is "the last time he will do so"! As if that clarifies everything.

Sadly, that method of debate IS what what the NRA and many gun fanciers fall back on, and as long as they have frightened legislators and Supreme Court judges in their pocket to nod wisely and say: "Yes, that's the way it is.", we will have more headlines.


--------------------------------------------

about the crime: The school was LOCKED.. he broke a window and forced his way in. Even teachers having access to weapons somewhere would not have helped. Only an armed guard at the door could have possibly have stopped him. I'll bet a few schools in rich areas WILL hire armed guards. And some malls... and a few theaters... How many libraries, swimming pools, sports stadiums, folk festivals, public parks..... well, you get the idea... will pretend that some sort of 'guard' will prevent similar stories? A deranged person with the right weapons will find someplace to go out in his blaze of righteous glory.

"Oh Bill... you are just morbidly hypothesizing."

Maybe... I hope so....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:51 AM

We have some shocking statistics above, of comparative figures of various nations regarding death by gunshot. The statistic for the US in comparison with the others is almost unbelievable, and an absolute disgrace to that wonderful nation. But Kendall endeavours to prevent any of the rest of us from drawing attention to this situation, because his Kendallship finds it "A pain in the ass"!

Really, Kendall; I am astounded. I should really have expected better of you.

Best Regards

~Michael~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:59 AM

How many times in real life has an armed intruder, bent on mass murder, been taken out by an armed civilian (or even a police officer) before he could kill anybody?

I'll rephrase that. How many times does it even *appear* that a hero has prevented a mass killing by drawing down faster than the heat-packin' bad guy?

Or even managed to *cut short* a shooting spree by nailing the gunman when he wasn't looking?

Come on, guys. How many?

I want to know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:03 AM

Fuckity hell.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:08 AM

Kendall, it's time for me to call you out. You got pretty hot earlier when you thought someone was calling you a liar. Here's a hint: if you don't want to be called a liar, don't tell lies. Below is a post I made earlier. Your response was to say, "John, most of the things you listed are in effect and have been for some time."

Bullshit.

In order to say that, you have to either be a liar or too ignorant to be part of this discussion. Please tell me which of the proposed laws below are in existence, nationwide, and adhered to our government. I'm tired of your crap. If we can't have a reasoned debate on the issue, then you are a waste of time. Your dismissiveness on this subject is harmful to our national dialog. According to the paper this morning, we have a mass shooting in this country every three months. What are you doing about it?

Another hint: loudly proclaiming over and over again that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" makes you sound like a spoiled child. Can you refute the statement that people with guns kill way more people than people without guns? For reference, read the next to last paragraph in my post below. Please respond to it in some way that actually answers it.

Please note that I still haven't suggested taking any guns away from any responsible gun owners. I'm just asking for a definition of the phrase "responsible gun owner", and for actual action to ensure that all gun owners are responsible.


The earlier post:
I keep hearing that "no responsible gun owner would do this" or "no responsible gun owner would do that". The problem isn't the responsible gun owners. It's that we let irresponsible people have guns. There are a few things we could do that would allow responsible gun owners to keep their guns, but let the rest of us have a little more confidence that the person next to us on the freeway or behind us in the grocery line isn't both mentally unstable and carrying a gun:

A requirement for extensive training for all gun owners.

Extensive background checks and a demonstrated need before we give concealed weapons permits.

The right to sell a gun should be very difficult to obtain. A fascination with guns should probably be a disqualifier.

No automatic firearms of any kind.

Any gun that's confiscated gets destroyed.

All guns should be securely locked up when not in use. Stolen guns get that way because they aren't adequately secured.

Allowing a gun to fall into the hands of your unsupervised child should be a felony.


As for the statement that if guns are illegal only criminals will have guns, I would like to point out that if guns are illegal, someone has to become a criminal before they use a gun. The way things are now, many crazy people who shoot others don't become criminals until they open fire. If the criminality happened earlier in the process, we'd have a better chance of keeping it from getting to the shooting stage. Also, most people are law-abiding and wouldn't buy a gun if it was illegal to do so. The problem is the ones who buy them legally and then go crazy or allow their guns to be stolen by other people who go crazy. Besides, if only criminals have guns, it will be easier to tell who they are.

There are statistics that show that a gun in the home is four times more likely to be used on a friend, neighbor, or family member than on an armed intruder. It makes me want to quiz people about gun ownership before I visit them. It makes me angry that people are allowed indiscriminate gun ownership anyway.

As soon as the gun lobby can convince me that all gun owners are responsible, I'll support the so-called right to bear arms.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:15 AM

It seems that the constitution of the USA is cast in 1776 stone and nobody has the fortitude to make changes. 2/3 of a majority to changes is not democracy; 50%+1 is democracy! If Obama were to pose a referendum to the people of the USA creating changing gun ownership rights and it were to pass, would he be wrong to declair it into law or would the goverment dare to ignore the democratic wishes of its people? That certainly would show leadership!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:39 AM

At least it's a start:

WASHINGTON -- In the wake of Friday's mass killing at an elementary school in Connecticut, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said Sunday that she plans to introduce an assault weapons ban bill on the first day of the new Congress.

"I'm going to introduce in the Senate, and the same bill will be introduced in the House -- a bill to ban assault weapons," Feinstein said on NBC's "Meet the Press," according to a tweet from show producer Betsy Fischer Martin.

The shocking murder of 26 children and adults in Newtown, Conn., on Friday has sparked a national discussion on gun control, with mostly Democratic legislators saying laws need to be tightened.

President Bill Clinton signed an assault weapons ban into law in 1994, but the measure expired a decade later. Democrats have tried several times since then to renew the ban, without success.

Feinstein called for the ban to be renewed after the mass shooting in an Aurora, Colo., movie theater that killed 12 people and injured 58 others.

"Who needs these military-style assault weapons? Who needs an ammunition feeding device capable of holding 100 rounds?" Feinstein wrote on her campaign website. "These weapons are not for hunting deer -- they're for hunting people."

On Sunday Feinstein laid out details of the bill.

"It will ban the sale, the transfer, the importation and the possession, not retroactively, but prospectively," and ban the sale of clips of more than ten bullets, Feinstein said. "The purpose of this bill is to get... weapons of war off the streets."

Feinstein would not comment on whether President Obama had failed to lead on gun control. "He is going to have a bill to lead on," she said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:40 AM

It's a good thing they didn't have cars then, and stick an amendment about them in the constitution. They kill more people than guns do. Thatt isn't what they're intended to do, and they're more regulated.

People would be zooming around with no licenses, at whatever speed they wanted, without even a tenuous assurance of competency. Can't limit our constitutional right to drive.

Bruce, the whole Asperger's thing pissed me off, too. I think the ones who started talking about it were trying to put some distance between the killer and "people like us".
"This guy was different, he was inherently flawed, so you don't have to worry."

Anybody think these murderss wouldn't have occurred if his mother hadn't had (legally owned) guns, and he hadn't had access to them?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:44 AM

I SAY AGAIN GOD DAMN IT LISTEN!!

\Your opinion is no better than mine or anyone else. we don't need rehashing opinions we need solutions!

John P look up Connecticut's gun laws. That's where this horror took place.
And for the last time, I am sometimes mistaken, unlike certain Narcissistic pricks here, but I do not consciously lie, so knock it off.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:46 AM

Bobad, that's a piece of good news. Thanks for posting it.

I hear you, Jeri.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:51 AM

".....my point is Mothers tend to overlook serious flaws in their kids.
Enough of this crap. Come up with some solutions or shut up."


That's crap. Mothers are very often the ones who are left to deal with children who have problems, because the fathers walk away...

There ya go, kendall, I'm throwing your sexist crap back at you....

I also know 2 fathers who've walked away from their children, or refused to accept anything was wrong at all, leaving their wives to deal with all the trauma that came their way. My best friend's husband not only refused to accept his son had Aspergers, but neither did his entire family, so for many many long and difficult months Kimmy was left to deal with all the problems on her own. She went through hell, but she came out the other side, as did her son, eventually, when she'd finally GOT that side of his family to accept the diagnosis.

And as for me mentioning Aspergers here, purely because Adam is now reported to have had it, well, time will tell, I guess. But I'll tell you this, there are a LOT of deeply disturbed kids out there...and the adults have been turning away for way too long, even encouraging it.

When my kids were younger I remember asking, in a GAME store, if they had any 'gentle' computer games for children which combined intelligence and adventure, but with no violence. The young man told me I was the first parent who had ever asked him that question, because most parents just bought the latest game, regardless of what was in it. Some of these games are horrifyingly gruesome, dark and gory. They are often made for single players only. Do the research on who the people are who design these games, as well as why so many are for single players only...and you might be surprised....

Our children's heads, worldwide, are filled with images that we NEVER had, unless we had lived through a war and seen horrendous things. Many parents let their children play on these games endlessly to the point where the child ceases to be 'in the real world'...It desensitizes them all.

Our TVs are FILLED with violent, dark and sinister dramas and films. Hollywood has a GREAT deal to answer for...as do those who make these films, write the scripts, do the special effects etc...

I won't discuss Autism in any way again in this thread, nor link it to what happened here, if people don't want to even see a connection...Previous killers from way back were never linked, because they didn't truly understand how the brain worked back then.

I've seen an autism meltdown..and it scared me shitless, for at the time I wasn't truly aware of what I was witnessing. I hear them now and then in the home for adults with severe Aspergers, next door to me. The amount of emotional pain which comes out as terrible anger is traumatic to hear.

NONE of us will ever know the reasons behind this tragedy, ever. We can all surmize as much as we may want to, and to be honest, I doubt even Adam could have told you the reason he did this.

As to the solution? Well, that lies with the American people, but it also lies with the rest of the world, for whilst people continue to watch violence, buy the DVDs, go to the cinema, buy the computer games and never complain, ever, about any of it, nor how the TV pumps out hatred and violence every single day, all day, it will continue to surround our children, to get into their Souls.

Some of those children will eventually implode......

And then, everyone can start going "Oh Fuck!" all over again, just like they did with Columbine.

There won't BE a solution, because most people don't give a fuck about anything any longer..so long as it doesn't directly affect them, so this will soon have faded into 'yet another school attack' and life will continue on....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:15 PM

The personal attacks on kendall are pointless and gutless.

If someone is incapable of discussing the issue and must resort to personal attacks, don't post anything.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:16 PM

2/3 of a majority to changes is not democracy; 50%+1 is democracy!

Decisions made by 50%+1 are also subject to being overturned or repealed when the political winds turn just a few degrees. The Founders put those 2/3 and 3/4 majority provisions into the Constitution to insulate the amendment process from the vagaries of politics and public opinion. If an amendment has enough support to survive the process, it's probably not going to be repealed. It's only happened once.

If 50%+1 were the standard for amending the Constitution, the rights of those in the minority would be trampled. The only reason an amendment declaring marriage to be legally defined as between a man and a woman, thus making same sex marriage illegal, has not been brought before Congress is that it probably wouldn't survive the 2/3 and 3/4 majority requirements. If 50%+1 were the rule, it would pass in a heartbeat and there'd be no legal gay marriage anywhere in the US.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:27 PM

So it's not going to happen again, is it?
I mean this only happened because the guy had psychological problems did it?
So how many people with mental problems have access to guns?
How many people who have access to guns, have mental problems, and of those, how many KNOW they have problems?
It's now becom e such a regular occurence, we now only wonder where it's going to happen next time.
It WILL continue to happen, and the reason why is pretty obvious.
BTW who would want to invade the US? Do you think they would do it without flattening large parts of the country, and the people first?
Just think Baghdad, or Japan, or many other places that have been invaded. After a form of blitzkrieg.
One or two men with a pistol ain't gonna deter anybody.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:46 PM

What Bee-dub said


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:46 PM

One or two? too bad thats not the reality.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:54 PM

Thou shalt not contradict the omniscient and immutable Saint Liz of Blather.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:05 PM

Lizzie, you know as well as I that Fathers don't have that Mothers instinct.

I'm one of the kids of which you speak. My Father didn't give a shit about anyone but his bottle of booze. We had no male role model and one of my brothers acted up, quit school, raised hell, broke into a store with his no good buddies, but Mother coddled him until he spent a night in jail for decking a cop. If I even mentioned his behavior she got really protective.

Now, before I go, let me clarify something. This saying People kill people is absolutely true. Gun violence doesn't start with a gun, it starts in the twisted mind of a person. A gun is only dangerous in the wrong hands, just like a chain saw, butcher knife or car.

When I stated that many of the regs that John mentioned were already in place, I was referring to Connecticut where this horror happened.
Got that, John P?
Now I believe that all assault weapons should be banned just like sub machine guns have been for many years. No one uses a AK 47 or a AR 15 to hunt anything but people.
As for hand guns, only law enforcement officers and retired law men who qualify for a concealed permit should be allowed to carry

There, that's my opinion, for what it's worth, and that aint much.

We still need a realistic solution, but all I see here is opinions of the problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM

pdq ~~ In what way did questioning the validity as argument of Kendall's statement that he found opposition to his views 'a pain in the ass' constitute a 'personal attack' on him? I should love to 'discuss the issue' with him -- if I could find anything he had said that was worth discussing, rather than just consisting of his acting all wounded because we can't make out where exactly he is coming from.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:10 PM

I thank all you folks who are sending me your support via PMs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:27 PM

"...rather than just consisting of his acting all wounded because we can't make out where exactly he is coming from." ~ MtheGM

Truth be known, it is not always easy to tell where anybody is "coming from" all the time.

I am a minor player on Mudcat and post an average of twice per day.

I have no plans to enlarge my role here, not do I have any authority to become an "enforcer".

I am simply pointing out that personal attacks don't win arguments. Besides, they are supposed to be banned on Mudcat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:28 PM

Wether or not "People kill people" or "guns kill people" or "people with guns kill people" it's obvious that semi auto pistols and rifles are very efficient tools for killing a lot of people quickly, especially defenseless children. While they're not the only part of the problem we need to recognize that their use is a large part of it and procede from there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM

Just an observation. Take it for what it's worth to you:

I live in a very rural area in the southeastern US. Pretty much everyone around here owns guns, and shooting them is a favorite weekend activity for many. It's rare to go more than a few minutes, particularly this time of year, without hearing a gunshot or two from someone hunting or target shooting. I was just outside for over an hour catching up on some chores and did not hear a single gunshot during that period. To say that's unusual is a huge understatement. It's actually pretty much unheard of. The gun crowd seems to have declared a moratorium on shooting. The only time I can remember it being this quiet around here was after 09/11.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM

"Lizzie, you know as well as I that Fathers don't have that Mothers instinct."

Not always the way. My uncle had WAY more maternal instinct than his ex-wife. Had his daughter been brought up by him, she'd have been a very different person I think, far more thoughtful and intelligent..
He's gay, as is his ex-wife...

My Dad was far more protective of me than my mother, who did not have much 'instinct' about me at all, for she was way too busy thinking of herself most of the time, but then, my Mum had many problems for various reasons. Had my Dad not been there, I don't know how I'd have got through it all at times.

And, I would argue that the 'Mother's Instinct' is dead and dying,for I now see so many women who seem to not give a toss about their babies and children these days...We've killed off Femininity and Motherhood, with women being urged, more and more,so it seems to me, to behave like the worst kind of man...

And now, back to guns...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:03 PM

I think that Charmion's idea (6:49 AM)of requiring all gun owners to be members of the National Guard is a good one. That would ensure that anyone 'packing' has had training in the use of weaponry and counseling in the utilities and ethics thereof and that could only be a good thing.
Further, some people might well decide that the requirement is too onerous or restricting and give up their weapons.

Most importantly, it would be a start. A start in meaningful dialogue. And just maybe it would be acceptable to the NRA/gun lobby.

(Far off topic: I wish people would be more aware of the difference between 'discreet' and 'discrete'. The misuse always sounds dumb.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:08 PM

Well, as expected, lots of spurious reasons from the usual suspects for retaining their personal armouries, so all I can say is this: that any country that loves its guns more than it loves its children (and can I just mention Kent State University here) has no right to consider itself civilised.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:10 PM

The NRA and the gun lobby are, unfortunately, not the deciding element in this issue.

The gun manufacturers would start going broke and the NRA would look pretty silly if there weren't a massive demand by Americans for firearms.

Think about it: 310 million guns but only 300 million Americans. And the guns are still rolling off the assembly lines.

But the reasons - never fully explained - must go a lot deeper than the NRA lobbying Congress and threatening the public with tales of Obama coming with thugs to get their guns.

The people want guns, dude! Men and women! Guns 'n guns 'n guns 'n guns. It don't matter for what: they just want 'em! They crave 'em!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

Street gangs in Canada are arming themselves with handguns and assault rifles mostly smuggled from the USA. Halifax, the city I know best and once considered its streets safe to walk at night now has the second highest per capita murder rate in Canada. In the USA gun control seems to be a state government responsibility and some states have good gun control and some have little or none. Problem is that anyone can purchase in a lax state and transport it legally or otherwise over state lines. Canada has a fairly open border with the USA and enterprising smugglers seem able to bypass customs without any great difficulty. Therefore we in Canada share your gun control problem even though we have much stricter laws here.
Part of the answer was given by Bruce when he advocates harsher treatment for crooks using guns. I agree with him but Canadian courts see it otherwise, and lazy prosecuters accept plea bargains allowing the crook to plead guilty to a lesser or a single charge. Con-current sentences, double time credits and early manditory parole mean the crook is back on the street much sooner than he would be in the USA.
Kendall, I have the highest respect for you and your opinion, but we in Canada are also greatly affected by your laws and we share the shoes in which you walk! I know that some of our problem is of our own making and but our countries share a large bed the damn bedbugs don't care on which side they feed!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM

I am not alone around here in having a child go off the deep end and then try to access the mental health system. For us things eventually worked out pretty well but that doesn't mean I'm happy with the "system." I'm not. One great thing that did happen was that the kids at school had been trained enough to feel free in reporting his dangerous behaviors which I'm sorry to say we missed. So as a given we need more, better, and easier in the mental health field.

We need to start seeing ways to tone back the violence which we have built into the American culture as this also comes into play. This too has much to do with mental health. I saw Rudy Giulani the other night say that "74% of these shootings were mental health related and 25% related to guns." He might be right but that doesn't mean we can just forget about the 25% does it.

We are long past the time to address the gun laws but let's get started now. Diane Feinstein is introducing an assault weapons bill on Day One of the new Congress. Already they're lining up with the "slippery slope" argument and assorted other 2nd amendment issues.

I love all of you but on this issue we may have to agree to disagree. Let me put it bluntly. Fuck the slippery slope. I am an actual card carrying member of the ACLU and I would never expect enough to happen to ever do away with the 2nd but I'm also sick and tired and really pissed that we not doing a damned thing!   I think a later model supreme court might be willing to interpret the amendment differently. The founders were scared to death of having a standing army as they just tend to cost lots of money and get into unneeded trouble. They were right of course.............But do we still need an armed militia? No, but hunting and shooting are (or can be) reasonable sports. Just what sport do you use an AK47 in?

Let's make some sensible laws though. Consider joining me in saying "Fuck the Slippery Slope" and let's do away with assault weapons. Then let's close up the gun show loopholes and tighten the federal requirement on background checks and waiting periods. Let's also make gun owners show proof of a locked storage cabinet(s) whenever the make purchases. Other small rules and better enforcement could make a big difference to Giulani's 25%.


Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:40 PM

MtheGM, I used to think you were one of the more intelligent members here, but your recent statement that people who disagree with my opinion is a pain in the ass is simply not true. Go back and read it again.

Look, we need some clarity of thought here. I am NOT defending the gun nuts, and I am not supporting the NRA, or the do nothing government.
What I AM< doing is trying to point out what we are up against in the regulations department, and the quandary of how to get around 200 years of a bad habit. You folks who don't live here are only aware of the lack of control we have here, and apparently, you can't understand why that lack is such a problem. Put your minds on a solution and get off the raving about the obvious!

If this is not clear enough then you are not as bright as I thought. I got As and Bs in English in high school.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:45 PM

Who ever closed that other thread, thanks. What took you so long?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:00 PM

LOL@Kendall.....Hey my friend, I have an idea!!! Let's blame the Brits for this entirely.

See, every ruling culture as far back as you care to look had a standing army and of course they used it as that is what happens when you have a large standing army.   When the British Empire ruled the world they did so with a giant standing army. Then some of us pesky colonists got it in our head to rebel and the home grown militia served us well. So in the effort to stay away from the standing army which we had proven able to beat with just a militia, those dumbass founders wrote up the goofball amendment which seems to have gotten us all in so much trouble.

So you see, if the Brits had not stuck with the standing army tradition AND HAD put down the rebellion as proper army should, all would be okay now.

.............'Ceptin' we'd all be talkin' funny and eatin' toad in the hole.



Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:06 PM

Yeh Spaw and you could look forward to Camilla being your queen! Off with your head! :<)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:19 PM

Wow....that is bad...........I greatly would prefer the Toad.......

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:31 PM

Wrong, Sandy! Camilla won't be the Queen if Charles becomes King, she will be the Consort - exactly the same situation as exists with Prince Philip, the Queen's husband and Consort.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:41 PM

Yeh, I know that Backwoodsman, but that is only a matter of title. The consort of the king is usually called queen but Camilla will perhaps be just addressed as rotweiler.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM

Not by me, Sandy, I'll still call her 'mother'.   :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM

As usual. Lizzie is the sensible voice.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:12 PM

> ...with women being urged, more and more,so it seems to me, to behave like the worst kind of man...

Urged by other women.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:21 PM

Sarah Palin. A woman with balls.
=(:-( °)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:23 PM

Actually in many cases our militia ran like rabbits when they met the red coats. Without the French we never could have beaten them.

Anyway, folks, I have tried in my best American English, and some Anglo Saxon to explain where I'm coming from, and it was like trying to pull a Bobcat off a wool blanket.

We need federal regulations to deal with this problem, and that is going to be very hard to do as long as we don't trust our government.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:04 PM

Ya gets the gubmint ya pays for Cap'n


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:30 PM

Unfortunately, John, some of the government is paid for by big business, including arms manufacturers and the NRA.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:35 PM

Kendall... "There are some very sharp minds here, all have an opinion of what's wrong with America, none with a realistic solution."

Assuming you are talking about the "gun problem"... NONE? Not even me?

Good gun laws. Education. Raising the standard of living. Said it scores of times on many gun threads in this forum.

I give up.

I just thank God we have so many guns and good ol boys in NA. I explained that more than one thread years ago. I brought it up in an interview with a lewy and two colonels when I was being tested for Royal Military College when I was 18. You can search it if you want. I just can't be arsed with any of this shite anymore and it don't matter on accounta, apparently, nobody thinks I have anything of merit to offer. *I* can't do anything about the problem in the US. I don't live there... so I CAN'T care about it anymore. I can only be sad when I watch TV news.

Oh... yeah... shit on the Yanks because they got guns? citizens and military? That is just fuckin laughable! No, I do not agree with what they do around the world militarily in concert with big money. But, I like my standard of living and I like their ideals so I just hope they will do the right things in the long run, on all counnts. If you have a better bet or a better solution(s), put it (them) on the table.

Otherwise, I gotta lock and load on accounta you guys scare me more than one crazy killing kids BECAUSE you won't even take the necessary steps to stop these kids from being killed. You all just want to grandstand and shout the other guy down and never get the job done because your egos are in the way... it's shameful.

Have fun with it. Rant and rave and point fingers and stand yer ground. BOTH sides. That all youse ever do. And children die while you take the moral high ground.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM

It was of course a pretty unclear constitutional provision, reflecting the fact that it was cobbled tgether by a committee of squabbling frontier politicians with agendas of their own. Not exactly Holy Writ.

But even as it stands the clear element in it that shoots holes through the gun lobbies claims is that it doesn't talk about a right of people to bear arms, it talks about the right of "the people" - and that this a whole different thing, "The people" acting collectively have the right to do all kinds of things that individual people can't do - and the other way round. "The people" cant get married, for example.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:54 PM

It's a very simple solution. Have gun owners licensed and tested. Restrict automatic weapons. Make it more difficult for people to own guns.

Guns should not be owned by everyone and their purpose should be carefully defined.
No one needs to pack and carry concealed weapons.

Stop trying to be macho with gun ownership. It's not a phallic symbol.

Support the Brady Institute and campaign. They are actually doing something about the problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:32 PM

Yeah, strings is right...

This ain't rocket surgery here...

*Proficiency certification

*Registration

*No gun show loopholes

*Background checks with updated systems

*No assault rifles

*No big clips

Where's the "Obama is going to take away your gun" in that unless you are someone who clearly shouldn't have a gun???

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:41 PM

At least half the posters on Mudcat don't believe the 2nd Amendment allow for private ownership of guns.

Roughly the same group of people rattle of their personal list of mandatory gun laws and restrictions.

If you don't have the right to start with, how can you pass laws to control something you don't have?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:47 PM

That is delusional, pdq...

With that logic you could say that 1/2 the people don't believe that people should own and drive cars if they aren't allowed to drive a 100 mph in a school zone...

I don't give a rat's ass about "private gun ownership"... I own guns...

BTW, there is a reason why we don't put loaded guns in the crib with the baby...

Get real... Lots of stuff can hurt other people and we regulate those things... Back to cars... Cars can kill people... That's why we have laws about how they are used and who owns them...

With your logic everyone should be able to drive anywhere they want in any manner they want...

Get real, man...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 07:01 PM

Once again, about half of all Mudcat posters reject the idea of private gun ownership.

They say the 2nd Amendment applies to a militia, hence you and I cannot own a gun as an individual.

Why do these people rattle off lists of needed gun laws and restriction?

They must first admit that Joe Public has the right to own a gun.

It's just common sense.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 07:06 PM

Henry Krinkle -- All women have balls. They're just higher up.

(And Sarah Palin is an exceptionally poor example of "Woman" -- beauty queen with no brains to speak of. Not a lot of walkin' around smarts, either. Just my opinion.)

Linn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 07:36 PM

BG!.... "All women have balls. They're just higher up."

Fookin PRICELESS LASS! Hahahahahaha! Love it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 07:37 PM

PeeDee....Have you got one loose? "Militia" is used in the 2nd as is "bear arms" and "keep" and a few other words.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I said that for me, I have no desire to repeal the 2nd amendment but I think we can get by with restructuring what it means. I just had some other jackass tell me he needed his assault rifle for wild boar hunting. Now THERE is a real reason to make sure they are readily available!

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 07:52 PM

My point was for those who insist that the 2nd Amendment does not allow for individual ownership of guns.

If someone does recognize the right to own a gun, then we can proceed to work on what constitutes "reasonable restrictions."

Those who think the 2nd Amendment applies only to a militia have no reason to suggest restrictions since they feel the right to private gun ownership does not exist.

I have now said the same thing three times. Is it clear yet?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:10 PM

Spaw - is that assault rifles or jackasses or wild boars that should be readily available?

Or all three?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:13 PM

Summary from Wickipedia:

In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. In dicta, the Court listed many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession as being consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government.

Of course, a Court with more Justices appointed by a liberal administration could very well turn around on the issue.

Peter


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:13 PM

Finally, yeah.....I got it now........I guess I thought it was obvious but I guess you needed to state it......which confused me. Easily done.....


Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,JIS
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:14 PM

The right to free speech is enshrined in the Constitution, yet we place restrictions on speech that are generally uncontroversial. The framers said nothing about restricting child pornography, but it has been held to not be protected speech. The framers made no exceptions for incitement or fighting words but they have held to not be protected speech. The framers made no exceptions for obscenity, but you still can't play George Carlins 7 Dirty Words sketch on the radio or on television without getting fined and risking your broadcasting license.

Yes, the 2nd Amendment gives a right to bear arms, but it does not give a right to bear arms sans any regulations or restrictions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:30 PM

While others blither on and on about gun control, this mother tells about her son who could end up another shooter if he does not get the help she knows he needs.

Do we spend money for the sake of the children or waste it fighting for useless


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:34 PM

The term "bear arms" has been taken out of context:
Bear arms


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Janie
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:38 PM

Very thoughtful and balanced comments from several people on "Weekend All Things Considered" this evening. http://www.npr.org/2012/12/16/167401103/we-have-to-act-on-gun-violence-but-how.

What is clear is that a multifaceted approach is needed.

One thing I will say as a mental health professional; The fact that a person is mentally ill does not make that person dangerous. Mentally Ill is also a nebulous term. There are lots of diagnoses that support the medical necessity for treatment. Legally, anyone with a psychiatric diagnosis identified in the DSM or the ICD could presumably be legally deemed "mentally ill."

I bet 99% of you could come into my office at some point in your lives because you are experiencing some physical signs and symptoms and/or are either having objective difficulty functioning at school, work or with personal relationships and/or are experiencing subjective emotional distress, and there is a psychiatric diagnosis that can be made that will establish the medical necessity for treatment, be it medication, talk therapy or a combination of the two. A diagnosis does not predict the potential for lethality.

There is no medical definition of insanity. There are legal definitions that vary from state to state and that all pertain to criminal justice.

There is also no magic formula or esp by which a clinician (or a family member or a work colleague) can discern that an individual is dangerous, imminently or in the long term.

I won't take the time to hunt it up now, but on Friday evening, again on NPR, a sociologist/criminologist was interviewed who talked about the profile of a mass killer. When asked why that profile could not be used he responded, appropriately, that there are way too many false positives. To paraphrase him, lots of people have the symptoms, but very few have the disease - meaning the vast majority of people who fit the profile would never commit murder, much less mass murder.

I'm all for a better mental health system - would be great if there were the public will in this country to fund it. But a better mental health system and/or background checks ain't gonna do it folks. Gotta get rid of some of the guns available to the general population to truly reduce the risks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:56 PM

The woman in the article Dorothy linked to took the precaution of securing all the knives in the house so her insanely violent son couldn't get at them.

Adam Lanza's mother was so determined to win her Darwin Award she kept three guns and enough ammo for a massacre.

Not much similarity.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:59 PM

No one thing will do it Janie. Now is the time to get serious on all fronts.

And Dorothy......My wife and I lived that exact scenario as older 'Catters will recall.   


Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:00 PM

Why don't the gun wackos ever quote the entire 2nd amendment???

Why do the gun wackos think that folks with guns are all okay until they kill a bunch of folks???

Why do gun wackos think they can just repeat the same old NRA BIG LIES over and over as if the rest of us are f'n morons???

Why don't the gun wackos want one single regulation on guns??? Not one...

Why are gun wackos, ahhhhh, wackos??? I'm serious... What make you folks think so messed up???

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Janie
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:27 PM

I know we are on the same page, Spaw.

Jack, your comment is remarkable for both it's lack of empathy and for the ignorance. None of us know anything about the circumstances of the lives of the Lanza family. It would be nice and safe to believe that people who commit these terrible acts have big signs flashing above their heads that say "I will commit mass murder eventually", and that their family members are always and simply inept, stupid, uncaring, grossly negligent or otherwise deserving of such an insult as you just basely uttered without basis.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:29 PM

Quoting Pete:
"When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:31 PM

Your post is right on Janie - I've been thinking all day about how to say what you just did but you did it much better than I could have. It is near impossible to predict who might do what this guy did - there are numerous people with similar and worse symptoms who would never do what he did.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:15 PM

I think the guns belonged to the shooter.
They were registered to the mother legally. But I think they belonged to the son.
She bought them for him.
Like moms who buy their kids booze.
An enabler.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:07 AM

Whatever the state of mind of a potential killer, in order to commit mass urder on this scale he/she has to have access to a gun.

Everyone who owns a handgun, assault rifle, semi-automatic or automatic weapon is a potential murderer (I take the point about the need for shotguns if properly regulated - but even in the UK there are issues here as my son, a police firearms officer, will testify) - look at the statistics of shootings in different countries again, for fuck's sake. Anyway, I'd hate to meet any of you gun-totting, macho apologists when you were having a bad day. Grow a pair instead!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:15 AM

I'm all for a better mental health system - would be great if there were the public will in this country to fund it. But a better mental health system and/or background checks ain't gonna do it folks. Gotta get rid of some of the guns available to the general population to truly reduce the risks.

I have a story to tell on this topic, Janie.

My nephew was bipolar all his life - diagnosed as such in early teens - and died in his early 30s. He found no help for his condition from conventional medical treatment and spent much of his later life staying in the house with his mother (my sister), working on his computer (he was brilliant with electronics), and finding medications on the internet which he believed helped him through his problems. He tried to commit suicide with pills on at least two occasions, and he and his mother would regularly go through the kitchen and bathroom cupboard contents together, as a kind of therapy - even joking about it - to get rid of this and that substance.

One day my sister came home to find his room trashed - totally wrecked - water pouring in from burst pipes. My nephew was lying on the bed, dead from a rifle bullet through his head. The rifle had been in the closet. This was in Arizona, by the way - Tucson. "Luckily", he used the rifle just on himself and on no-one else. We'll never know if, without the rifle to hand, he'd have still been alive now - or whether it would still have ended in suicide by some other method. How many more years might he have had... We'll also never know whether, in a depressed state, he might have killed others at a later date.

Who knows? All I know is that the ready availability of that gun was a tragic factor at that point.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:50 AM

None of us know anything about the circumstances of the lives of the Lanza family.

We know the mother was the sort of fuckwit who buys three guns and a mountain of ammo. So we know quite a lot.

What kind of empathy does that dumb cunt deserve when her paranoic lifestyle got a couple of dozen innocent people killed?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 07:32 AM

The Supreme Court has held recently that gun ownership need not be required to have connection with a militia.

The Supreme Court also held something--in 1856 I believe--that was later totally rejected by the US in general.

The Supreme Court is, believe it or not, made up of mortal individuals who can make mistakes.    There is also a issue of strict constructionism vs a more evolving approach to the Constitution.

In this case it appears to anybody who studies the situation at the time of the Bill of Rights, that the 2nd Amendment did absolutely intend to tie right to bear arms to the obligation to participate in a militia.    The recent Supreme Court decison saying otherwise is dead wrong.

As I noted earlier in this thread, there were three issues meant to be dealt with by the 2nd Amendment:    fear of a British attack, probably from Canada;   fear of Indian attacks, and fear of a standing army.

Now which of these do you think still applies?





And, as "Mr. Dooley" stated earlier--I think at the turn of the 20th century--"th' Supreme Court follows th' election returns".


But in fact in the Internet Age, the general population can in fact have an influence it has not until now.   We may not have to wait for Obama or successsors to replace members of the Court as they shuffle off this mortal coil.

There is already a petition on Facebook to repeal the Second Amendment.

Even if this is unsuccessful--and let's not be defeatist about it--there can be other petitions about restricting ownership of pistols.


And don't hesitate to write actual letters--their rarity makes each one carry a punch.

We can in fact pressure our Senators and Congressmen to do something about this revolting situation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 07:42 AM

The 2nd Amendment guarantees the right of Americans to own 18th century muzzle-loading muskets and single-shot, flintlock pistols.

Beyond that it says nothing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:04 AM

Living in a country without a written constitution, I find it difficult to understand why the 2nd Amendment should be so sacrosanct. It's just a law - admittedly a very important one - and laws can and should be changed when they no longer serve their original purpose. The US Constitution has already been amended 27 times, so there's no reason why it shouldn't happen again.

The original amendments which make up the Bill of Rights were apparently intended to limit the powers of the federal government. What this suggests is that Americans don't trust their governement - perhaps a reasonable position for a newly emerging country in the late 18th century, but is that still appropriate for a mature modern democracy? A democracy of which Americans are rightly proud, to the extent that they are keen to impose it on others.

I should know better, having experienced a much greater culture-shock than I had expected when I first visited the US many years ago. Because we share a (more or less) common language and heritage, and because American culture is so familiar to us, we expect you to have similar attitudes and expectations to us. To realise that intelligent and sensible people, with whom I think I should have much in common, believe it is not only normal but desirable for firearms to part of the domestic furniture is something I find completely baffling.

I have no great expectations that anything will come of this latest tragedy, apart from a great many crocodile tears among the real ones. The right to slaughter one's fellow citizens seems to be too deeply embedded in the American psyche.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:47 AM

"Let us provide in our constitution for its revision at stated periods. What these periods should be nature herself indicates. By the European tables of mortality, of the adults living at any one moment of time, a majority will be dead in about nineteen years. At the end of that period, then, a new majority is come into place; or, in other words, a new generation. Each generation is as independent as the one preceding, as that was of all which had gone before. It has then, like them, a right to choose for itself the form of government it believes most promotive of its own happiness; consequently, to accommodate to the circumstances in which it finds itself that received from its predecessors; and it is for the peace and good of mankind that a solemn opportunity of doing this every nineteen or twenty years should be provided by the constitution, so that it may be handed on with periodical repairs from generation to generation to the end of time, if anything human can so long endure." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:42

I like the idea of issuing musket, ball and a powder horn to aspiring militia men, Lighter, while confiscating their assualt rifles and large capacity magazines.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:49 AM

>>>"We know the mother was the sort of fuckwit who buys three guns and a mountain of ammo. So we know quite a lot.   What kind of empathy does that dumb cunt deserve when her paranoic lifestyle got a couple of dozen innocent people killed?"<<<


Well, as her son is said to have had Aspergers, perhaps she too had it? It is said she liked shooting for the solitariness of it....She also lived in a country where guns are commonplace and viewed very differently from how we view them over here....She died a terrible death, administered to her by her own son...apparently. Can't you let her rest in peace without anymore hatred surrounding anyone concerned?   It's over now. It's time for those grieving to very slowly start to somehow find their way back to life and for compassion to be shown to all those who died in this shocking tragedy.



By the way, Adam's father, Peter Lanza, it is 'rumoured', was due to testify in the Libor scandal. It is also rumoured that Robert Holmes, the father of the man who shot so many at the Batman film in Aurora, was also due to give evidence.

I would imagine these are just insane, paranoid internet rumours.......but I thought I'd mention them anyway...



Will, I'm very sorry to learn of the sadness of your nephew's death. xx


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:56 AM

In this case it appears to anybody who studies the situation at the time of the Bill of Rights, that the 2nd Amendment did absolutely intend to tie right to bear arms to the obligation to participate in a militia.    The recent Supreme Court decison saying otherwise is dead wrong.

Can't be. By definition, the Supreme Court is never wrong. Even when they reverse a prior holding of the Supreme Court. Because there's no avenue of appeal from their decision.

I think I remember one of the Justices quoted as saying: "We are not final because we are infallible. We are infallible because we are final."

Peter


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:01 AM

""I would like programs that glorify violence taken off television, and video games that do the same outlawed.""

AMEN to that Bruce.

They keep telling us that people know the difference between cartoon violence and reality, and that probably works while it's Tom & Jerry, or Sylvester & Tweetie Pie hammering seven barrels of s**t out of one another.

But when you get to realistic violence toward apparently real people, it's a small step for the latent sociopath to want to try it for real. Then somebody says a wrong word to him and wallop.

Ban the bloody lot say I, and I don't care much if others disagree.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:01 AM

"Can't be."    Why do I think we're playing semantic games?   Can't be. That never happens on Mudcat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:23 AM

I like the idea of tying gun ownership to militia service because it attaches norms of mission-oriented service and civic obligation to the possession and use of firearms.

It also compels participation by gun-owners in a group activity in which they get to know each other, and become known, in the context of weapons-handling.

Of course, I'm a veteran and child of a veteran. That is how I was brought up to understand weapons, and I believe this approach is more appropriate for an increasingly urbanized culture than the notions of self-gratification and self-aggrandizement that I infer from most of the anti-gun-control rhetoric I have heard and read.

I believe those same values of civic virtue underpin the opinions of commentators like Kendall, who uphold an ideal of American strength rooted in each individual's freedom of independent action. (Please correct me if I have this wrong, Kendall.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:24 AM

Will, I'm very sorry to learn of the sadness of your nephew's death. xx

Thanks, Lizzie. It was about 4 years ago now, but it still resonates a little more when sad incidents like this latest hit the news headlines.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:39 AM

Atta girl, Liz - said to have had Aspergers, rumoured, could be, might be, & Etc. The usual run of factual information we expect from you.

I would imagine these are just insane, paranoid internet rumours.......but I thought I'd mention them anyway...

1. WHY did you "think you'd mention them anyway" knowing them to be shite?

2. N omore insane and paranoid than the majority of what you post - totally in keeping.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: johncharles
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:46 AM

the agressive and unpleasant nature of some of the exchanges on this thread is very sad
john


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 10:04 AM

""Those who think the 2nd Amendment applies only to a militia have no reason to suggest restrictions since they feel the right to private gun ownership does not exist.""

That's the trouble when you only take in half of what people say. The point that was made was that the Founding Fathers were talking about "a well regulated militia" and the right of "The People!"

If you believe in the Constitution and establish a well regulated militia, then individual citizens neither need, nor qualify, to keep and bear arms.

If, on the other hand, you know better than the men who wrote the bloody thing, let individuals keep and bear arms with all the following at their expense.:-

1). A clearly demonstrated need for a gun, together with the type required (hand gun, hunting rifle etc.)!
2). A certificate of proficiency from a Law Officer training facility, with a requirement for an annual refresher and re-license.
2). No multiple ownership of active weapons beyond 1 shotgun, 1 pistol and 1 hunting rifle, except in very special circumstances.
3). No (absolutely NO automatic or semiautomatic weapons) and absolutely no magazines designed to increase weapons' ammo load.
4). Automatic re-assessment when a legal weapon is discharged, other than when hunting or target shooting.

But kill the bloody gun shows once and for all, and regulate the activities of all gun sellers, private or commercial.

All of the above to be Federal law, applied nationwide.

The good guys still have their guns, and the others shouldn't have them anyway.

As for collecters, they should have no problem with their weapons being permanently de-activated, beyond those they might legally own on the basis laid out above.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 10:28 AM

I'm still waiting for an answer to yesterday's question:

How many times has an armed bystander taken out a heavily armed intruder bent on mass murder?

Meanwhile, a U.S. Congressman tells CNN that if more people had guns, this problem would disappear.

For school principals, he recommends the M-4 assault rifle carried by Friday's shooter.

For those who say that gun control doesn't work: we'll never know how many mass killings have already been prevented by in-place gun control laws that make it tough for nuts to get guns.

And it makes no difference if no practical measure could have prevented this particular atrocity. (Guns legally owned by mom but stolen, school equipped with security system, "suicide bomber" behind the trigger....)

It makes no difference, because the point is to reduce the per capita number of shootings nationally to as close to zero as possible. Any particular case is irrelevant except as one more in an endless series of so-called "wake-up calls."

If every school principal had an M-4 in her office, would schools be safer or more dangerous? If 250 million Americans were carrying, would there be fewer or more killings?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 10:31 AM

Very well put, Don.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 10:53 AM

Lighter: Rep. Louie Gohmert (Republican, by the way) is a certifiable lunatic - look up more of this Texas jackass' idiotic statements & actions.

But he's not the problem.

Problem is there are literally millions in the U.S. who are just as idiotic, and think the Gunfight at the OK Corral is the norm and that we're still living in 1880.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 11:32 AM

Some young guy in Arizona just shouted at an inquiring TV reporter, "Guns don't kill people! People kill people!" Maybe he was afraid that the TV man was going to take his guns away.

But you know, he has a point. Lock fifty loaded guns inside a warehouse and leave 'em alone for two weeks. Now, lock fifty gun-control advocates in a different warehouse and leave *them* alone for two weeks.

Some of those people will have strangled each other, but the harmless guns will have committed no crimes.

So it's true.

However, it's also true that some people *use* guns to kill more people than they possibly could or would with their bare hands.

And anybody who thinks otherwise is in a dream world.

Now let's talk about laws. If people, not guns, are the problem (as so many people have been programmed to say), we must need more laws against people. Laws, for example, making it harder for some of them to get guns.

Or, if always-innocent guns are more sacrosanct than possibly- dangerous people, maybe we want laws to lock up right away anybody we think might some day use a gun on someone. You know, preventive detention. For anybody who's a little odd. Including some legal gun owners. According to somebody.

Or there's the possibility of letting everybody pack a gun - including those same people who kill people. Or the possibility of cops in every school and mall and on every street corner. Lots of armed cops, paid for by your taxes, waiting for the less-than-once-in-a-lifetime chance of stopping an armed nut.

Those are the choices, gun guys.

Take your pick.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 11:56 AM

"Guns don't kill people! People kill people!"

Well, using that same logic the answer's simple - keep the guns and ban people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:05 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq - PM
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:41 PM

At least half the posters on Mudcat don't believe the 2nd Amendment allow for private ownership of guns.

PeeDee... can you READ? No one here...including me... claims that the 2nd Amendment does not allow private gun ownership. And we ALL know that the courts have **interpreted** it that way. Currently, under the laws, it IS legal of buy & own many types of guns.

Some of us are merely pointing out the linguistic confusion in the wording of the amendment.... and also asserting that no bunch of "Founders" in their right mind would have written it that way if they had any idea what the future of weapons technology held!

It is entirely possible that a different assortment of justices would have held that it meant citizens were allowed to bear arms when acting AS a Militia!, and that appropriate arms would be issued when necessary.
We are living in fear because the gun lobby convinced them to rule for almost unlimited gun ownership! It was a VOTE... a pressured, emotionally driven VOTE. And any attempt to seriously amend that amendment would get an even MORE emotional uproar! Money would be thrown in huge quantities!

Now.... Obama and many other leaders have made noises about "doing something"... Lord knows what they can do... I suspect that THEY don't know yet.... but I'll bet that you will see versions of MY analysis floated in coming weeks! Why? Because it makes SENSE to re-evaluate the Founders wording, given the state of things today! Limiting assault weapons and large magazines will likely be the first step.....we shall se after that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:12 PM

Bill D,

Are you capable of arguing the topic without dragging me into your post?

I said what I said and you are mangling it for your own purposes. Shame on you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:17 PM

Since those are about the same thoughts or at least in the vicinity of mine...........

PEEDEE-----Help me out here with a mystery.......well, it ain't much of a mystery but maybe you can give some answer anyway. In the past couple hundred years we have seen fit to make certain adjustments to the Bill of Rights and the Constitution based onchanging times and attitudes. We seem to never do that to the second and I wonder why.............Of all the "rights" given by the Bill of Rights why have we messed with the rest and not seriously done much at all with what today might be the very least important right of all of them?


Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:31 PM

I stated a few facts in the last day or two.

I resent being dragged back into this since I already said what needed to be said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM

No, PeeDee, you resent your simplistic & dogmatic view being opposed by fact and logic.

And Spaw, there'es this proverb about teaching a pig to sing...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:45 PM

We are all pretty much saying the same thing. Let responsible well trained people have their guns but come up with a way of keeping them out of the hands of criminals and unstable people. some easy steps, have a federal registration program and conceal carry law so the states don't have such wide variety of mish mash laws.   Get rid of gun shows that negate all existing laws. I would help quite a bit.   No need to fight about it


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:47 PM

The fact that there have been 27 amendments to the Constitution does seem to indicate that the original document had flaws and oversights that people didn't think of when they put forth the original.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:51 PM

The fact that there have been 27 amendments to the Constitution does seem to indicate that the original document can be changed if that is what The People want.

They don't want the 2nd Amendment changed.

Live with it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 01:00 PM

"They [the people] don't want the 2nd Amendment changed."

That will be determined by the people soon enough I expect.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM

1. The Second Amendment does, in fact, relate gun ownership and militia. It is completely disingenuous to pretend that it simply states one clause, the non-infringement clause, and it is equally short-sighted to pretend that the introductory clause concerning the militia is exclusive. The Amendment as written neither states solely that "No law infringing the right to bear arms" shall occur, and neither does it state that "Militia members shall always be allowed to bear arms" to the exclusion of other purposes. It clearly ties the two things together in a loosely-coupled relationship. Loosely enough that it cannot be interpreted exclusively toward militia membership, as written, but it also makes it clear that state militias is the antecedent consideration, the notion behind the dependent clause.

2. The fact that "there is no medical definition of insanity", succinctly stated by Janie, raises the issue of a shamefully large hole in our culture and science--we have a really piss-poor understanding of the human mind, its workings and malfunctions and its genus. We have a mishmash of approaches, some anchored firmly in material biochemistry, some focused on emotion, some dealing with rational management of logic and data, some focused on loss and trauma as remembered incidents, and some tentatively exploring spiritual aspects of thought. We have hundreds of bits and pieces and no working model of the whole, which surely involves all these things. Now there's something we should be ashamed of.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Megan L
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 01:48 PM

I was going to post this on the thread for the children but i see it was destroyed by bickering so I guess it has to go here pity the children deserve better from adults

No more lullabies

No more lullabies my dear
No laughing smile to still my tear
No joy as you come through the door
For you will come again no more

Hush you hush my darling baby
Hush you hush my own sweet child

All oer the world your mother weeps
Your father lonely vigil keeps
And wonders when we will ever learn
To save the child and love again

Hush you hush my darling baby
Hush you hush my own sweet child

My world stopped but theirs goes on
My lovely child forever gone
For them the shock will pass away
But I will love you every day

mhtbl 1845 17/12/2012


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 02:11 PM

Actually, PeeDee, if you want to deal with fact(heaven forfend), the majority of folks in the US in all surveys and polls DO want decent, functional firearms legislation and oppose the NRA/PDQ hysteria - if that's what you mean by "changing the Second Ammendment".

Live with it.

No back to your regularly scheduled BS.

By the way: when do you predict that the jack-booted storm troopers of the opressive U.S. government are going to begin their fiendish oppression?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 02:40 PM

Beautiful sentiments Megan L! Empathy and sympathy for those families is strong despite the bickering and our hearts cry!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 02:50 PM

We all know what the problem is; no one knows how to deal with it. Commenting on the obvious has become an exercise in futility.

Jack, I'm still waiting for that apology.
John P my IQ is 140. whats yours?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:04 PM

don't hold your breath Captain, he hasn't yet for anyone. But at least Law Enforcement officers past and present do understand what you are saying.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:08 PM

"We all know what the problem is; no one knows how to deal with it."
Kendall, In its relatively short history of 230 or so years The USA has done many great things and solved many deep problems. Most of us on the outside looking in have difficulty in comprehending why Americans ignore what seems so obvious.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM

I have a beautiful MP3 of a Welsh Choir singing All through the night in a medley. You can PM me for a copy. However, it is too large to fit into some mail boxes. SOme it works.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:32 PM

Wellll... back briefly... I got three emails and on PM in response to a PM I sent. Here is my response to two of them, FWIW

mmm... just to be clear. Are you saying, for the reasons given, another amendment cannot be made?

I would have to think carefully about the words to describe my intent, but, off the top of my head - Amendment 2a : Listen up. In the interests of all of youse, and in the name of common sense, anyone who wants to bear arms gotta take an arms saftety course and pass it and have a background check before you can bear arms or ammo. None a youse can bear arms a) if yer too stupid to pass the test b) if ya got a crimial record or warrants or restraining order(s) c) yer a nutbar d) if yer civil union partner says, "A gun? Fuck NO! That asshole would probably use it to rob a corner store to feed his crack habit." e) if you bought a Built Ford Tough F-150 four wheel drive and and then you found out it was a pussy machine and the fuckers at Ford give you a hard time when you try to get shit fixed during the warranty period.

I can't think of any others off the top of my head on accounta a lot of ideas slip off since I lost my hair.

MERRY HO HO!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 04:46 PM

From the Columbia Law School website:


New York, July 26, 2010—Most Americans believe the Second Amendment gives people the right to keep a gun at home, but they still favor limits on certain weapons, according to a new survey co-authored by Nathaniel Persily, the Charles Keller Beekman Professor of Law and Political Science.

"At a base level, Americans believe in the right to bear arms and own a gun," said Persily, who collaborated on the poll with Harvard University Professor Stephen Ansolabehere.

Persily, a leading constitutional scholar and political scientist, is also the Director of the Center for Law and Politics at Columbia Law School, and co-edited the book Public Opinion and Constitutional Controversy, which examined the effect court decisions have on public opinion.

Some 76 percent of the 1,027 persons surveyed online by Knowledge Networks oppose attempts to ban handgun ownership. Almost as many—72 percent—believe the Second Amendment gives individuals the right to own a gun, while 25 percent say the "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" found in the amendment is confined to forming a militia.

"The Supreme Court's recent decisions confirming an individual's right to own a gun, while recognizing the constitutionality of some limits, has broad support among the American public," Persily said.

{continued at website}


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:02 PM

Well, in that case, if President Obama really wants to do something about the situation, what's to stop him from issuing an executive order, not to ban or control guns, but to hold a nationwide referendum asking

1). Should privately owned guns be subject to stricter control, YES or NO?
2). Should gun sale be restricted to gunshop premises where background checks can be made, YES or NO?
3). Should auto and semi auto weapons be banned from private ownership, YES or NO?
4). Should enlarged magazines be banned, YES or NO?
5). Should weapons owned by collectors be rendered permanently inactive, YES or NO?

It's hard to see how Congress or the Senate could ignore five resounding Yesses. After all, they want to be re-elected, while Obama doesn't have to worry about votes.

Anybody know whether this would be possible?......Not will he do it?, just could he do it?

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:08 PM

Should people from other countries mind their own business?
Should Amerika mind its own business?
I think so.
=(:-( P)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:10 PM

A friend of mine said tonight that some of the posters on here sounded like a cruel parody of Mel Gibson in Braveheart.

You may kill our children, but you'll never take our guns!

Seems to be what some of you are implying.
It's an awful high price to pay for the right to bear arms.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:26 PM

""Should people from other countries mind their own business?
Should Amerika mind its own business?
""

Should trolls stay under their friggin' bridge and mind their own business?
I think so.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:29 PM

Hmm, dateline on that Columbia Law School article is from almost 2 1/2 years ago. I wonder how people would respond today? No doubt there will be plenty of polling done and it'll be interesting to see where sentiments lie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:29 PM

"Compassion is a far more powerful weapon than violence. Let us all become weapons of mass compassion" — Carlos Santana


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:29 PM

It's a fundamental tenet of US law that a right, once extended, can only be rescinded or limited if its free exercise denies others the free expression of a more fundamental right. Though the practice of chattel slavery was perfectly legal when the Constitution was framed, it was later determined that the right to own slaves was trumped by those slaves' more fundamental right of freedom.

Does the right to bear arms conflict with a more fundamental right? It depends on what arms we're talking about.

People have a right to feed themselves and to feel safe in their homes. For many, whether you or I agree or not, owning a gun for purposes of hunting food and personal protection is part and parcel of securing the fundamental right of life itself.

On the other hand, owning a firearm which is not likely to be used in securing a fundamental right cannot be considered a fundamental right itself. Most semi-automatic rifles in private ownership are used for non-hunting recreational purposes. Last time I checked, recreation is not a right guaranteed by the Constitution or by subsequent legislation. Life is. When the two come into conflict, even though it's a rare occurrence, Bubba's right to shoot an AK-47 at tree stumps gets trumped by his fellow citizens' right to life.

Of course there are plenty of gun owners who will contend that since an AK-47 can be used for hunting, they should have a right to own them. Well, if the government has a right to say you can't hunt moose with a .22 because you're more likely to wound the animal than kill it, it should have the right to say you can't have that AK because you're more likely to use it to shoot your neighbor than a deer.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:32 PM

There you go again, Lizzie.
The voice of sensibility.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:41 PM

The diameter of the slug fired from the Bushmaster was .223 inches, the slug fired from a 22 rifle is .220 (as far as I can tell) so there is very little diference.

Neither should be used in hunting deer, boar, similar large game animals.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:04 PM

Sorry, PeeDee, but the .223 is a standard military round, has a jacketed bullet, and is considerably more powerful than a standard .22 long rifle cartridge. They are nothing alike.

You're just displaying your ignorance, once again.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:15 PM

"Of course there are plenty of gun owners who will contend that since an AK-47 can be used for hunting, they should have a right to own them. Well, if the government has a right to say you can't hunt moose with a .22 because you're more likely to wound the animal than kill it, it should have the right to say you can't have that AK because you're more likely to use it to shoot your neighbor than a deer." ~ Bee-dubya-ell

Quite often, laws, rules and regulations are intended to educate people as to the right thing to do.

They are not always intended to punish the bad guy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:39 PM

They are not always intended to punish the bad guy.

However, thay should also "punish the bad guy" in addition to their educational function, if such there is.

Try again.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:40 PM

The .223 is a very accurate round. At a long distance.
I'd use one to hunt deer. I had a Ruger Mini 14.
A good gun.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 07:50 PM

Mister PDQ... I WILL "drag you into" the ongoing debate...by name.. when it is you who is carrying the banner for just accepting the status quo and letting such crucial issues be decided and influenced by outmoded concepts.
If you wish to just read from the sidelines, now that you have "said all that needed to be said", quit tossing in your 2 cents worth!

-----------------

Olddude said: "Let responsible well trained people have their guns but come up with a way of keeping them out of the hands of criminals and unstable people. "

You miss the point that almost anyone can be trained and **considered** responsible until they prove otherwise. Even those who cannot be, or are deranged, or criminals can steal weapons! This boy WAS refused the purchase of a rifle shortly before the shootings. "Oh, never mind, I know where my survivalist mother keeps hers!"

I of course, like the idea of closing the loopholes of gun shows and internet sales. But, Dan... what will you do about millions of assault weapons and handguns with large magazines already out there... many already IN the hands of criminals and the unstable!

I'm sorry, but what I see in the idea "...Let responsible well trained people have their guns but ..." is.. "Don't take MINE!".. and everyone who HAS those weapons will define themselves as 'responsible' and resist any changes.

If ONLY proven responsible folk who actually NEEDED them had guns, I would shrug... but reality is otherwise.... and even IF 75% of everyone agreed with ME, it would be very hard to implement any changes!

So... what are MY ideas? (since I am so loud about things?)

1) I would immediately reinstate the ban on sales and imports of assault weapons
2) I would require ALL privately owned such weapons to be turned in to National Guard armories, with a certain buy-back % of their value.. costly, but worth it) (I am not sure what I would recommend be done with the weapons... but armories can be breached.)
3) I would ban the sale of many types of ammunition... you can guess which types.
4) EVERY known possessor of ANY gun permit would be required to RE-register and be reevaluated... and like drivers, be re-checked every few years. ANY misstatement about number & types of weapons owned would be grounds for revocation of their permits and/or jail time!
5) ANYONE caught using an unregistered firearm, whether in a crime or not, would receive a LARGE fine and some jail time.
6) ANYONE who qualified to have a permit for certain firearms would be subject to random inspections to prove that they had current possession and proper safeguards.
7) I would promote and lobby ALL members of Congress to revisit the 2nd amendment and TRY to pass a reasonable version that addresses the stuff that the Founders could not have imagined.

......now, that's a set of ideas... which I shall send to my congressman & senators. Anyone feel like piggybacking on my ideas to YOUR representatives? I won't complain a bit!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 07:58 PM

I will add:
8)Any gun store which needs to deny a sale for any reason, must REPORT the attempted buy to authorities.

9)I would create a national database of owners, serial numbers of ALL guns and all those who use weapons in crimes... and perhaps more. This might be the easiest idea to pursue. Perhaps some of it already exists.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 07:59 PM

Henry,

The .223 (or 5.56 mm) is legal in my state but it is not allowed for deer hunting in some states.

If you are a good shot or get close enough, almost any gun will take down a deer.

My grandfather used a 25-20 made in about 1895, but that was a long time ago.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:00 PM

"Should people from other countries mind their own business?"

On an international forum? Dream on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:01 PM

[Kendall]
Jack, I'm still waiting for that apology.

What fucking apology? You knowingly repeated a bunch tired and often-refuted NRA propaganda you had been shown to be bollocks a couple of hours before, making no effort whatever to check any of it.

You aren't just a liar, you have to rehash other people's lies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:12 PM

Something important for your list, Bill:
Limit the amount of ammunition one can buy and legally posess.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:21 PM

And we should use the guillotine on all firearms offenders.
=(:-( o)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:31 PM

Seems the NRA has been unavailable for comment. Likewise with Republican supporters of the NRA. Wonder why that is?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:01 PM

The NRA is not stupid... they know when to lay low & hope things settle down.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:19 PM

Yeah. Real stalwart defenders of America's freedoms.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:22 PM

The last time there was BIG outcry... after the shooting of Gabby Giffords, the NRA did just that... refused to comment and answer questions while everyone bewailed the poor victims.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:55 PM

Well, surprise, surprise. FOX news has said its broadcasters/reporters will NOT discuss gun control in the wake of the Newtown murders. Another heroic news organization at work.

So, the first amendment ain't but the second amendment is? Gotta love them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 10:06 PM

Kendal says, "John P my IQ is 140. whats yours?"

I don't know. I don't think it's pertinent to this discussion. Why do you? Is there any chance you could actually respond to the things I said, rather than trying to say you're smarter than me? When I posted a list of laws I would like to see, none of which exist yet, your response was to say they already exist. What's IQ got to do with it?

Everything I've seen you write previous to this discussion has made me think you're an intelligent and honorable person. Can you understand how frustrating it is to try to have a rational discussion on a topic, only to have you respond with really old and tired bumper-sticker slogans? "There's plenty of laws on the books, but criminals ignore them" and "guns don't kill people, people kill people". I believe you are really smart, but you don't seem to be bringing your brains to this discussion.

How about if you go back and read what I really said, and then really respond to it? Perhaps we could take my points one at a time. Let's start with the fact that a gun in the home is four times more likely to be used on a friend or family member than on an armed intruder. What do you think we should do about that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 10:20 PM

Perhaps Fox is consulting the NRA about what to say... he said cynically.

------------------------------

Now, let me clarify what my draconian suggestions would NOT include.

If you were a farmer in Kansas who kept a .22 rifle to shoot vermin near your barn, you would likely have NO trouble getting your permit okayed.

If you were a rancher in Wyoming who sometimes needed and even more powerful rifle to deal with predators... it would probably be routine for YOU to submit forms and be approved.

If you live in the West Virginia mountains (as a friend on mine does)and often supplement your diet with venison, of course you may have the *necessary* firearms..(DO buy the permits)

If you collect antique firearms and have relevant permits... no problem.

If you are a licensed private investigator who sometimes encounters dangerous situations, and are sometimes threatened in the line of your work, it is 'likely' that you can keep your sidearms... if you have complied with all relevant laws.

A good proportion of hunters... who do not claim the need to 'hunt' with semi-auto AR-15s and such... are likely to be allowed to continue hunting... birds, deer, etc.... just refer to the rules 1-9.

I am NOT....yet... suggesting we deny those uses. I only assert that the definitions of 'need' as to firearms needs to be tightened a lot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 10:21 PM

damn near everything you said Bill is already on the books. If you try to buy a weapon and you are a convicted felon, yup the licensed dealer is required to report it ... other than the assault ban which we did have a few years ago there is little new in your suggestion. Why doesn't it work, well private sales are not required to have a BG check and the gun show loophole makes that a reality. Hence it is all negated. Like I said plug the hole in the dam and then the 27,000 laws will make sense that we already have


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 10:23 PM

ya can't ban bullets, guys like me make our own, melt down tire lead and reload or swag our own jacketed bullets. Guys who shoot a lot and I do, reload their own. even if you ban that, most people have the equipment and primers and power to last the next 20 years .. that won't work.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 10:56 PM

You CAN ban... or severely limit... commercially mass-produced ammo. And for many types, VERY few will be able to melt enuf lead and obtain the powder necessary to amass the huge stock some of these nuts collect.

10) (almost forgot) restrict easy access to casings and black powder


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 11:01 PM

It's me... I'm back because this is just sOOOO inane in many ways but very important (sue me). Sooooo, are youse keen to write Amendment 2a? I posted my proposal. Post yours. What would you write in the next amendment?

WE, the peeps, are pissed and we... ???

Is that an odd request?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 11:18 PM

Leave the guns alone. Combat mental illness.
If you're not from the U.S., worry about things in your own backyard.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 12:02 AM

The ignorance of some Mudcatters, like most Americans, about their own history, about the 2nd Amendment, and even about grammar, is discouraging.

First let's have the exact wording of the 2nd Amendment:


"A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

It shows, among other things, ignorance of grammar, to allege that belonging to a militia was not intended by the 2nd Amendment to be a requirement for bearing arms.


The obvious meaing of the Amendment is that "Since a well-regulated militia is essential to defend the US, there is to be no restriction on bearing arms."   That is; we need freedom to bear arms in order to serve in the militia which is to defend the US.

Yet again, at the time of the Bill of Rights there was a strong fear of a standing army;   the militia was to substitute. If you have only a citizen army a general is unlikely to be able to make himself dictator.

But we do need an armed force, ran the reasoning, in order to defend against British attempts, probably from Canada, to reverse the Revolution, and to defend our homes against Indian attacks--and probably, in the South, against slave uprisings.


So every able-bodied (white) man is to be armed and to be ready to be part of a militia at any time.    In fact, there is to be training for these men ("well-regulated")---which turned out to be a pathetic joke, as I've already noted in the thread.


Relying on a militia for national defense quickly proved to be a disaster--people like Washington already knew this--but it took quite a while for a standing army to be accepted.

However, at this point, unless you are still afraid of British invasion, Indian attacks. slave uprisings or a standing army, therefore, the 2nd Amendment has lost all usefulness.    It is in fact at this point a curse---since gun rights groups can and do always wrap themselves in the Constitution--- a tactic which cannot be used anywhere outside the US to turn back gun control efforts.

But knowing about the history is the first step to dealing with the 2nd Amendment and its defenders.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 12:15 AM

Trouble is Henry, You export your back yard to us.

Our kids pick up on your gangsta rap , wargame jargon, crime stories...

The USA is the dominant culture in the world, and as such it has responsibilities beyond its shores.

Lets be honest. Maybe you DO need to shrug and say, we love our freedoms and the price of it apparently is that now and then something terrible like this happens.

We ain't perfect. Sorry about that.

No more of this bursting into tears and hypocrisy. Its going to happen again in the new year and every year after that. It must be borne.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:16 AM

"If you're not from the U.S., worry about things in your own backyard."

The US is my backyard, Henry. Go fuck yourself.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:58 AM

I agree with everyone who disagrees with how the media presents guns.
I've been in the military. I had a collection I sold off.
A gun should either be locked away or on a person's person.
Not left in a car or in a closet.
Just like in the military.
I enjoyed my AK47 and Ruger Mini 17.
Fun to empty out a clip.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:33 AM

Like clip, like brain, Hen.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:47 AM

SEMANTICS:

Incidentally, the word 'infringed' appears to be used in the 2nd Amendment in an odd, perhaps obsolete, sense. What, precisely, do all you upholders of the amendment take it to mean? The intended implication would appear to be that the right should not be disregarded, or contradicted, or set at nought; but in what sense does 'infringe' reference any such actions?

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 06:14 AM

Bill D, you are right on with your ideas. Now, get them past congress. That is the REAL problem.

Jack, I quoted some old stats. Do you know the difference between lying and just being mistaken?
A liar is one who says something he knows to be false. I am not a liar! I admitted being mistaken.
By the way, I don't really expect an apology,pedants never apologize, they don't have to because they are never wrong.

John P, you called me a moron, that's why I brought up IQs.

Part of being a liberal is the willingness to allow others to have a different opinion. I believe I do that as a matter of course.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 06:56 AM

As BillD said in his original post,What we need is a grass roots campaign to get rid of all automatic weapons, and every congressman and Senator who is in the pocket of the National rifle assassination.

Does anyone not understand what I'm saying? I'm tired of being misunderstood.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:10 AM

Let us suppose for one moment that it may be possible to reduce and finally ban completely gun ownership by the public in the USA. Would it be enforcable, and if so, how would it be undertaken? Could there be, for example, a longish period of armistice, where folk hand in their weapons voluntarily; closure of all retail units which sell guns; then house searches, penalties and fines; ban on sales of bullets (or whatever one loads these things with); severe and swingeing sentences for shootings; Government campaigns on TV and the Press to win the hearts and minds of the people, and so on. But would the American people ever submit to this? Looking at this list, I can't see it being embraced by them much. In fact, it might provoke riots!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:18 AM

""I would create a national database of owners, serial numbers of ALL guns and all those who use weapons in crimes... and perhaps more. This might be the easiest idea to pursue. Perhaps some of it already exists.""

Good idea Bill, and I would add to that compulsory test firing of every weapon sold, with cartridge and slug added to the database.

I imagine the cops would be overjoyed if they had an automatic means to find murderers by forensic checks on a slug.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:35 AM

Would either of the sensible posters like to answer my question re Obama issuing an executive order for a referendum, not on banning, but on genuinely effective tight control, which would be much more likely to elicit a positive reaction from a majority of voters.

Faced with a positive response, politicians would have to be very sure of themselves to ignore it, while Obama no longer needs to care about votes.

Does he have the authority to do any such thing?

Kendall, or Bill D, any thoughts on this?

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:56 AM

Don, as a non-American who pays attention, I think I can help answer your question.

I'm not sure a national referendum, as such, is technically possible in the U.S. The United States is 50 sovereign states, a federal district and some territories, all flying in a formation that is not necessarily close, guided by the Executive Branch of the federal government and the Supreme Court in compliance with the Constitution. That's why they have an Electoral College; the national popular vote for the Presidency is tallied by state and it is the states' weight in the Electoral College that determines which candidate wins.

Canada is a federation of provinces under a Westminster-system parliament. We could do it -- in fact, we have done three national referenda, the most recent in 1992 over the proposed Charlottetown Accord -- because the federal government is the boss of us all. Australia and New Zealand -- ditto, with minor variations.

I believe the United Kingdom would actually have a hard time doing a binding national referendum. Technically, I think the vote would have to be conducted separately in England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:01 AM

Bill asked for some new ideas. I only read the first 100 or so posts, so maybe this has been said before. Personally, I'd like to get rid of all the guns, but that's not going to happen any time soon. So, let's pay attention to something the gun supporters are saying, take on their 'people kill people' slogan and say maybe they are partially right, how you deal with the mental health issue is part of the problem. So I suggest you double the price of every bullet and gun and pass the additional revenue into a hypothecated budget for a national mental health fund. Oddly enough, I suspect the gun supporters are unlikely to think that's something they could support either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:32 AM

They would not. They would see it as a threat, another "Foot in the door" thing.

No president has the power to change the constitution, and he has so many enemies he would be lucky to survive such an attempt.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:40 AM

Perhaps pass a law stating that gun ownership requires approval and training by the NRA. Let them charge each gun owner a substantial fee, about double the purchase price of the gun. Then allow individual or class-action lawsuits of negligence against the NRA for any crime using said approved gun in any illegal manner. Once a court of law determines that the gun was used illegally or a felon is convicted using said gun the burden of proof in defense falls on the NRA! This law would apply to the approved gun notwithstanding who uses it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:05 AM

They would not. They would see it as a threat, another "Foot in the door" thing.


Precisely so, kendall. I'm not intending to tar all gun owner's with this brush, but there seems to be a substantial group whose argument can be summarised thus: It's not a gun issue ... so we won't do anything about that ... it's a mental health issue ... which we won't do anything about either.


Not a very encouraging stance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:28 AM

"John P, you called me a moron, that's why I brought up IQs."

Sorry, Kendall, I didn't. You must have me confused with someone else. I have accused you of making knee-jerk responses to a complicated issue. I'm glad to see that you want to get rid of automatic weapons and the influence of the NRA. I couldn't agree more. How do you feel about "shall issue" laws for concealed-carry permits?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:36 AM

Shall we all agree that we should have laws prohibiting private ownership ( except in very controlled cases ) of AUTOMATIC weapons? And the ASSAULT Rifles should be included? And that those under 21 years of age, with a felony conviction, or with a mental condition should be restricted from having guns?











Will that have stopped this massacre?


Since these HAVE BEEN THE LAWS SINCE 1968, I fail to see what anyone here wants BESIDES banning all guns.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM

Olddude, it's your turn. You have several times advocated having more armed people in every crowd. I think your idea is that if someone opens fire, they'd get taken down quicker. I have a very different expectation for that scenario. I'd like you to refute it if you can.

Crazy person with gun pulls it out and starts shooting in a crowded shopping mall. Armed Bystander #1 (AB1) sees it and pulls out his gun to take down the shooter. AB2 sees AB1 with a gun in his hand and tries to take him down. AB3 sees AB2 with a gun in his hand and tries to take him down. AB4 sees a whole bunch of people with guns and tries to take them all down. Pretty soon there's eight or ten people with guns blazing away at each other with hundreds of normal people in the cross fire. I could easily see the body count from "friendly" fire reaching 50 or more. Since they're not members of a militia, our armed "defenders" have no way of knowing which are the good guys and which are the bad. What's your proposal for ensuring that the Armed Bystanders are shooting in the right direction and that they don't hit anyone but the bad guy?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:42 AM

I listed my 'personal' batch of suggestions as a starting point for discussion, knowing full well that enabling many of them thru acts of Congress or in any individual state would be difficult.
Of course there is no individual or office in the US that could wave a magic wand and demand compliance.

I am not sure exactly how much a president could do on his own, and I suspect Obama is now consulting with legal... and political... experts to work out just what he CAN do legally and with political help. I do know that presidents DO have certain powers to issue emergency orders in some circumstances, but I doubt this would help with any long-term solutions in gun controls.

Now... I am glad to see folks weighing in with positive, concrete suggestions... such as test firing all weapons prior to sale and adding their ballistics to a database.
I'd be willing to see a price increase on ammo...etc... also(it hasn't stopped tobacco sales, but it has made some TRY to reduce their habit)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:48 AM

U.S Constitution: Article. V. (Bold added)

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

So the Constitution does provide a "bottom up" means of amendment. It's just a matter of getting the legislatures of at least 34 states to say they want to meet somewhere and talk about it. This means of amending the Constitution has never been used.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:57 AM

I would add some restriction on gun advertising to the list of suggestions. Perhaps a total ban or some form of limitation as we have in Canada on tobacco and alcohol. This kind of ad for the Bushmaster, the weapon used in the recent tragedy, is illustrative of the need for some type of controls.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:08 AM

Yowza, bobad. That thing you linked to: it's, um, amazing.

I imagine the thinking process that led to that advertisement -- both the copywriter's and the client's -- and my brain goes Tilt.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:30 AM

There is only one avenue to getting rid of guns. Congress. Those clowns can't even agree on what to fight about.

As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us." We send them to Washington to do our bidding, and we keep sending thje same type of person, so, we are at fault. We get the kind of government we deserve.

John P, sorry, I'm wrong again.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:35 AM

Well that ad might well be the last for Bushmaster. Here are a few unexpected developments! Read on.


In an incredible response to American anger over the Sandy Hook massacre, the owner of the nation's largest gun and ammunition manufacturer — which includes notable brands like Remington and Bushmaster — is putting the company up for sale because of the Sandy Hook shooting that took the lives of 20 children and six adults. Bushmaster has quickly become known as the infamous brand of rifle used in the Sandy Hook shooting in Newtown, Connecticut.

Cerberus Capital Management, which created Freedom Group, now the parent company of Bushmaster, Remington, and Marlin, says it's just not worth the attention and hassle after Sandy Hook.

"It is apparent that the Sandy Hook tragedy was a watershed event that has raised the national debate on gun control to an unprecedented level," Cerberus states via a press release:



The debate essentially focuses on the balance between public safety and the scope of the Constitutional rights under the Second Amendment. As a Firm, we are investors, not statesmen or policy makers. Our role is to make investments on behalf of our clients who are comprised of the pension plans of firemen, teachers, policemen and other municipal workers and unions, endowments, and other institutions and individuals. It is not our role to take positions, or attempt to shape or influence the gun control policy debate. That is the job of our federal and state legislators.

There are, however, actions that we as a firm can take. Accordingly, we have determined to immediately engage in a formal process to sell our investment in Freedom Group.



"According to Fortune's Dan Primack, Cerberus' sale of Freedom Group is 'not a financial decision,' as the holding company's value is 'artificially low,' and a buyer will be hard to find," Neetzan Zimmerman at Gawker notes:


However, it is worth noting that the California State Teachers' Retirement System, one of Cerberus' largest investors, said yesterday that it would review its indirect investment in Freedom Group in light of the Newtown tragedy.

Also yesterday, Walmart unexpectedly ceased online sales of the Bushmaster assault rifle used by shooter Adam Lanza, though its unclear how long the moratorium will last.

Dick's Sporting Goods, another major retailer of sporting rifles, said in a statement this morning that it would be suspending the sale of semiautomatic rifles in all stores nationwide for an indefinite period of time.




Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:36 AM

What we need, Bearded Bruce, is the will and funding to actually enforce and update the federal gun laws with a non-political agency whose mission remains constant through administration changes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:38 AM

that was me


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:38 AM

John P, it was not you who called me a moron, it was some one called the leveller.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

"Shall we all agree that we should have laws prohibiting private ownership ( except in very controlled cases ) of AUTOMATIC weapons? "


Automatic weapons are banned and have been since 1934, not 1968.



For MtheGM and others who want to understand the odd phrasing in the 2nd Amendment:

                                                                                     an introductory phrase was common at that time


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

Every weapon sold by every gun manufactured is test fired and the weapons case is stored in a database for law enforcement. That is already done. Now the full tracking of a firearm to the last owner is flawed because of private sales do not require paperwork


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:53 AM

Bottom line here is that it looks as if we are going to get some sane gun control policies, like it or not...

Bottom line, part 2... There is no reason for the general public to have more assault rifles in their hands today than are in the hands of our current military...

Bottom line, part 3... For all you who are sticking with yer "Gun's don't kill people, people kill people" mantra, what are you going to say after sane gun controls take effect and murders and go down???

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stu
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 11:41 AM

"Now the full tracking of a firearm to the last owner is flawed because of private sales do not require paperwork"

Aren't the sellers required to phone the FBI and other agencies to ensure the buyer doesn't have a criminal record and is fit to buy the gun? This is how they know how many guns are sold (legally) in the US. This was reported in a UK broadsheet but I can't find the reference for love nor money; apparently there have been millions of guns sold in 2012 already.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 11:52 AM

Bobert,

since "the general public to have more assault rifles in their hands " and they are PROHIBITED NOW, what would additional laws do?


An assault rifle is a select-fire (either fully automatic or burst capable) rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. It is not to be confused with assault weapons.[1] Assault rifles are the standard service rifles in most modern armies. Assault rifles are categorized in between light machine guns, which are intended more for sustained automatic fire in a light support role, and submachine guns, which fire a pistol cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge.
Examples of assault rifles include the StG 44, AK-47,[2] M16 rifle, QBZ-95, INSAS, Heckler & Koch G36, and Enfield SA80.



Section 922 Section D Bowleg 1-9
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person - (1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year (2) is a fugitive from justice; (3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)); (4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution; (5) who, being an alien - (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or (B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26))); (6) who (!2) has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; (7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship; (8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that - (A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and (B)(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or (ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or (9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 12:34 PM

Bobert, I'll let you know when that happens.As long as the intent is there, a weaPON WILL BE FOUND.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM

A gun was drawn on the murderer in the Clackamas shopping mall shooting recently. He did not fire for fear of shooting an innocent bystander. But when the gun was noticed, the murderer shot himself. I hzve read, perhaps here, that that is what happens..when they see the law enforcement, they shoot themselves. So perhaps even unloaded guns would have some effect.

Count on it...innocent people will be shot by people shooting the killer. It will happen. But it might save 10 lives and cost 1. And I don't think all those other scenarios are likely..50 people being shot because everyone is shooting everyone else. It usually would be clear who the murderer was.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:10 PM

You are in la-la land, bb... What, just because the AR-15 is semi-automatic makes them some kinda single shot 22??? Plus, how many folks have bought that little $5 booklet at the gun shows that tell you exactly how to make your AR-15 fully automatic???

Yes, Captn... A weapon will be found... How many folks are going into a crowded school of movie theater with a single shot or even 9 mm with an 8 round clip thinking they are going to take out the entire joint???

And no, Sugarfoot Jack... If I want to I can back a U-Haul rental truck into the parking lot at the Richmond State Fair where they conduct these gun shows, fill it up with AR-15s and AK-47s, thousands of rounds of ammunition, a case of "How to make your A%-15 or AK-47 Fully Automatic" drive off with everything and guess what??? Nothing gets reported to anyone...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:12 PM

For those who think that gun ownership can be eliminated:


"Improvised firearms are not solely the province of the criminal element, however; they are also used by insurgents. During the Japanese occupation of the Philippines during World War II, the paliuntod, a type of improvised shotgun, was commonly used by guerrillas and the joint American and Filipino soldiers who remained behind after Douglas MacArthur's withdrawal. Made of two pieces of pipe that fit snugly together, the paliuntod was a simple, single shot open bolt design. The shell was placed in the breech of the barrel, which was then fitted into the larger diameter receiver. The receiver was capped at the breach end, and had a fixed firing pin placed to strike the primer of the shell. When the barrel was pulled sharply to the rear, the firing pin would strike the primer and fire the gun.[5][6] These improvised firearms are still in use by both criminals and rebels in the Philippines.[18][19]"

The US manufactured this type of shotgun and dropped them in Europe during WW II. Two pipes, one nail, one piece of wood.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:17 PM

Bobert,

"What, just because the AR-15 is semi-automatic makes them some kinda single shot 22??? Plus, how many folks have bought that little $5 booklet at the gun shows that tell you exactly how to make your AR-15 fully automatic???"

No, I think that people who want to ban ALL guns should be honest and NOT say ASSAULT RIFLE when they mean "Anything that looks like it might be dangerous"

And the USE of that $5 book is a felony, and ALREADY OUTLAWED- HOW MUCH GOOD HAS THAT DONE??? (yelling because this is not the first time I have stated this.) IF IT IS ILLEGAL, why would passing MORE laws make it work any better? How about we enforce the laws we have now, which make felons ( including pot smokers) NOT OWN GUNS!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM

". How many folks are going into a crowded school of movie theater with a single shot or even 9 mm with an 8 round clip thinking they are going to take out the entire joint???"


NONE- They will find someone who LEGALLY has guns and use the single shot zip gun on them, and take their weapon, even if it is a police officer.

THEN they will go to the theatre and shoot into the crowd- Police carry weapons that hold more than enough ammunition.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM

In 1996, in response to a massacre in Tasmania that killed 35 people, Australia banned automatic and semiautomatic guns including .22 rimfires, semi-automatic shotguns and pump-action shotguns. They also instituted a buyback program for the newly illegal weapons which saw over 600,000 turned in. In the decade after the law was introduced the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM

In other countries more civilized than ours, gun ownership is not a right but a privilege or entitlement if you like that is met by the gun owner declaring a legitimate reason to own a gun. Only in the U.S. does the government declare that gun ownership is a right. This is a gross distortion of the Second Amendment and don't tell me that you gun owners who have access or own an automatic weapon are a "well-regulated militia", or that you need that gun for any reason at all.

You gun owners should have to prove that you deserve to own a gun, are mentally fit, have the ability to know how it works, be licensed, and not to be able to conceal it for any reason, otherwise you have no RIGHT to that gun or weapon. How does anyone know that you wouldn't go nuts and use it to kill children? Just your word for it?

And those who use the words "lock and load" should be investigated for their attitude.

It's time we kicked the NRA in the butt, put Wayne LaPierre on trial and stop defending Charlton Heston as if he were a benign old man.

What we do have a right to, in this country is a decent education, health care,
and welfare when it's needed.


Gun owners should not have rights to own them


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:39 PM

No one here wants to ban all guns, bb... That is just ya'll's default position whenever anyone brings up one single idea to make gun ownership safer and more responsible...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:39 PM

'For MtheGM and others who want to understand the odd phrasing in the 2nd Amendment:

                an introductory phrase was common at that time'
,..,.,
Thank you for this link, pdq. But, reading the document, I found that the words in general use, to define what the right under consideration must not be, would be 'abused' or 'disregarded' or 'restrained'. This 2nd amendment seems to be the only one to use 'infringed' in this way. Which leaves me still wondering about its precise semantic connotation here, where its employment appears to be unique.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM

Yep. Improvised weapons.
Raise your children to be human beings.
Combat mental illness.
Timothy McVeigh didn't use a gun.
The 9-11 terrorists could have been stopped with a gun.
We need more responsible folks like olddude carrying guns.
=(:-( o)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:45 PM

Sandy Hook Shooting Prompts 'Unprecedented' Run on Guns, Assault Rifles Across the Country
Neetzan Zimmerman        

Gun store owners across the country are reporting record sales in the aftermath of last week's massacre at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.

One local proprietor told Huffington Post customers were particularly interested in combat-style assault rifles like the one used by shooter Adam Lanza to commit mass murder.

Though it's not unusual to see a spike in the sale of weapons after such incidents, at least one shop owner said the volume of prospective customers this time around was "unprecedented."

"We already have tons of customers because of Christmas, hunting season is peaking right now, and not to mention, the election," said Larry Hyatt, owner of the largest independently owned gun store in America. "But this tragedy is pushing sales through the roof. It's like putting gasoline on a fire."

Hyatt Gun Shop is notable for being would-be Obama assassin Jerry Blanchard's gun shop of choice.

Meanwhile, at least one gun store owner is extending a special discount to teachers who are interested in applying for a conceal-carry permit in Texas.

"As we do with veterans, I would offer them a discount," said Crocket Keller, owner of Keller's Riverside Gun Store near Austin. "Our normal rate is $110.00, so I would give them a rate of $90.00. If they are teachers, we would be more than happy to do that."

Keller previously made headlines after refusing to allow non-Christian Arabs, Muslims, liberals, and anyone who voted for Obama into his conceal-carry class.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:47 PM

Having read this entire thread, I would make a suggestion. As far as the reference to hunting rifles go, most people do well with bolt action guns. I cannot see a situation in which any hunter would require more than a few rounds, and certainly a five-round clip would suffice for anything in North America. However, restricting hunters to a single gun isn't realistic. What are loosely called varmints can be killed with small caliber bullets like .22s. Fox and coyote require a .222 or .223. Big animals like bear need something on the order of a .308 while thick bush is easier to work in with a shorter rifle like a 30-30 (also good for most deer) which while not good for large bear can certainly scare them away. Canada has many people who hunt. Some do for pleasure, something I have never understood because taking any life shouldn't be fun. I also have never understood why civilians require semi-automatics or automatics. If you're too lazy to keep your five-round clip topped up you're probably too lazy to go get your own meat. In the times I have killed animals for food, either for my own family or the families of others, I have never felt 'good' about doing so. It was a necessity at the time. These days I have no rifles. I don't hunt anymore, although if I needed to I'd still be adept using snare wire or traps. Meat is meat.

I have no love of guns or rifles. Rifles are simply tools to me. That's it, that's all. As for the argument that big brother is going to confiscate your weapons, maybe yes, maybe no, but most people would be too chickenshit to fight, anyway. I fail to see what good an automatic would be against drones, body armour or armoured vehicles. So that is, imo, a bullshit argument.

I wish the USA good luck ridding the country of assault rifles and as Dan has said, getting control over who can have handguns.

Again, I'd suggest law wherein the use of a gun in the commission of a crime is a mandatory 20 year jail term, no parole, and death resulting to innocent people in the commission of a crime be a mandatory life sentence, no parole.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:04 PM

I also think teaching your kids to love others, respect others and to work hard would go a long way also


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:05 PM

MtheGM...

If I substitute 'abused' or 'disregarded' or 'restrained' for 'enfringed' in the sentence, I see no change in meaning.

The right to own a gun was never questioned.

The first Dutch, English, French and Spanish who came to the New World walked off the boats carrying guns.

The Bill of Rights simply enshrined the right. Restricting it would be an enfringement. That's my take.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:10 PM

The government needs to come down hard on gun sales owners and weapons manufacturers. They don't have the right to supply arms to anyone without the test of those having mental ability to handle one.

What asshole needs a privately owned semi-automatic weapon in the U.S.?

In fact most people don't need hand guns and are so ignorant because they think they know how to use one in a crisis where they are being threatened by hardened criminals who much more adept at the use of them.

Suicide rates are commensurate with the availability of guns. Taking them away would decrease the suicide rate by making that option less easy.

All this macho gun talk about "rights" is bullshit. As they are made available by a bloodthirsty Congress, there will be more mass killings.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:32 PM

This asshole enjoys shooting semi automatic weapons. Even more fun was shooting an M 60 machine gun.
Who made you the big decider for everybody?
=(:-( I)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:46 PM

Yes, raising more responsible and less whacked-out adults-to-be is a noble objective... Until we do, let's just keep them from WMDs, thank you...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:51 PM

When the average gun-grabber says

                   "the 2nd Amendment doesn't say you have the right to own guns",

they really saying

                   "you have no right to own guns".

If they start talking about how many rounds a clip should be allowed to hold or how long a waiting period should be, they are talking crap.

They have already said you have no right to that gun at all.

Nothing left to talk about.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:58 PM

Anyone that can qualify to own a class III Federal firearms license to shoot a fully auto weapon I have no issue with. They are very well checked out and stable collectors. Not a threat. I own many semi auto handguns and rifles. Other than my semi auto shotgun, they are not very good for hunting. Target shooting yes.   The AR and AK biggest problem is that in gun shows, unstable folks and criminals can get them with no check. Add a 100 round drum magazine and it gets sketchy for sure. So fix the loophole.

I have had lots of fun firing fully auto weapons ... and they belonged to the sheriff's office. I know lots of people who like to shoot and don't hurt anyone


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:59 PM

"Nothing left to talk about."

There is much left to talk about. This is not about the second amendment. It is about auto and semi-auto weapons, both pistol and rifle. The requirement of the second amendment can be met by restricting everyone to a single-shot .22, short rifle.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

Or to live up to the plural "bear arms" part, a single-shot .22 short rifle and a rock. There ya go.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:07 PM

As per usual, pdq jimps all over the NRA BS talking point that those of us favoring common sense gun controls want to take everyone's guns away...

That is beyond being a silly statement... Its also an outright lie...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:08 PM

Or a jug of bleach and a jug of ammonia to make nerve gas.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:12 PM

When the average gun-grabber says
"the 2nd Amendment doesn't say you have the right to own guns",
   they really saying "you have no right to own guns".


Both wrong...you persist in arguing points no one has claimed (at least no one here)

A speculation about the 'real' mind-set of someone who never even said what you claim is the wildest form of "straw man" fallacy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:50 PM

"Bill of Rights simply enshrined..." right to own guns.

Wrong. It did a lot more than that.

For the reasons I recently stated, it made it plain the right to bear arms was put there for a reason---to defend the US through a "well-regulated" citizen army and thereby avoid the necessity of a standing army, since at the time many feared a standing army.

Now just why are gun owners still afraid of our own army, navy or air force?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:54 PM

They won't talk about that, Ron... It doesn't fit their narrative...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:57 PM

When you give people like George Bush the keys to the car, we have plenty to fear.
=(:-( D)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Megan L
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM

Given the average age on mudcat I put this thread down to senile dementia


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM

When I was on the job I got to fire a Thompson sub machine gun. I was not impressed.
Back when I was a hunter, I used to hunt with a .45 caliber flintlock. Your first shot is your best. After that you are just throwing lead at a moving target.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM

Why is everyone picking on Bearded Bruce, Henry, Kendall , PDQ .. they have strong opposite opinions like everyone else here has strong opinions. We all agree the gun loopholes need plugged. Enforce the 27,000 laws we have. Do what is right to keep the unstable and criminal from getting a hold of them.

I know guys that have custom sports cars, go over 200 miles an hour on the race track. Don't mean they are going go 200 miles an hour on the highway. It is all about stability and rational people vs unstable people. If someone owns a weapon and likes to shoot, ok but secure the weapon so you kid can't take it and do this terrible stuff. If you own something that is dangerous, a firearm, a car that can rocket 200 miles an hour .. secure the keys .. likewise the weapon. Plug the loopholes. Make sure the people purchasing are background checked even with private purchases, get a federal carry law, get rid of the gun show law. We all be a hell of a lot safer


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM

Thanks, Dan.

I am simply asking people to acknowledge the right to own a guns as a prerequisite to their discussing the "reasonable restrictions."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:14 PM

Who is picking on them, Ol'ster... We are disagreeing with their assertion that gun control = banning all guns...

And 400...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:41 PM

Back briefly on techical points. Re don : "forensic checks on a slug" (or csasing). Easy to modify the footprint(s) before and after a crime. Casing are a little harder and require more than simple hand tools. Don't ask - I ain't tellin.

Second point. Yes, semi-autos are easily modified to fire on full auto, as stated many times herein. But, if there is no law restricting mags ("clips" do not include all mags) to five rounds, outlawing gas powered repeaters is useless. I can (could when I did) fire a repeater lever action and pump action AND a bolt action if it's sloppy like a Mauser (got one and it's FAST!)accurately at 3 second intervals, at distance and on fast moving four legged animals. This discussion is not about distance and not about fast moving four legged animals which run MUCH differently than two legged animals. I can (could) knock down what I was shooting at every three seconds without a semi which STILL takes three seconds on accounta that is what takes to aim! Mabey some can do it in less time but that ain't yer average shotter.

Sorry if that is kinda graphic under the "circumstances" but I find compelled to explain the details to ensure people who advocate gun laws understand these technical points because, as I HOPE I have explained, these technical points make a BIG difference when enacting GOOD gun laws. Common sense, informed decisions HAVE to be part of it.

BTW, 9, one of the largest bears ever taken was taken with a 22. But it's easy to be accurate if you can touch it with the barrel.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:42 PM

Because, Dan, many feel certain arguments and claims are either not factually correct or are logically flawed. PDQ, for example, continues to ignore the fact that I and others HAVE agreed that some ownership of guns is BOTH allowed AND defensible. And your own reasoning about sports cars is 'correct', but irrelevant. Sports cars have other purposes than going very fast.... and their uses on highways is much more watched and regulated than guns are. One can have their license to drive revoked for a few speeding tickets.... and 'usually', speeding does not kill anyone, whereas firing a weapon outside a legal range is often/usually done with the purpose of injuring others!

OF COURSE weapons at home can and should be 'secured', but you KNOW how often they aren't! Those who insist they should be allowed firearms for 'self-defense in the home usually feel that a gun is of little use if they have to unlock a case or closet and load it before 'defending' their home.
There is not enough space on the newspaper's front page for the weekly stories of kids who knew where Dad...(or, sadly, Mom) keeps their guns! A few years ago, my ex-neighbor across the street bragged to me that he had a gun 'available' in every room of the house. He had two girls living at home at that time...under 12.

I will repeat this as long as others keep claiming that 'safety and enforcement' are all that are required.
"As long as a wide range of firearms are allowed to be kept in the home by average citizens, there will continue to be tragedies following burglaries and kids getting a hold of them!"
You simply cannot base the rules and logic on what YOUR abilities and practices tells you are reasonable. YOU will take care....too many others will not!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:00 PM

Most people over estimate their own abilities. while at the same time under estimating the abilities of others.
I wonder how many people's last words were, "I can take him anytime"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:02 PM

"Or a jug of bleach and a jug of ammonia to make nerve gas."

That doesn't produce a nerve agent I don't think, Henry. Lung irritant, and it can cause a person to die from asphyxiation. Of course, my memory ain't what it used to be--and likely never was.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:02 PM

"keys to the car"    We are to imply from this that Mr. Krinkle thinks gun owners, by keeping all their guns, could have deterred George W. Bush from idiocy, it seems.

And just how do you envision doing this, Mr. Krinkle?

Were you and the rest of the "well-regulated militia" going to kidnap Mr. Bush?

It seems you've been reading too much Robert Ludlum.

Why don't you try reading some history, so you might just possibly have somewhat of a chance of making sense, for a change? And start with some books about the US, 1783 to 1800.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: voyager
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:17 PM

A few comments/observations on this latest episode of senseless violence, innocent murder, gun control opinions, etc....

"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members"
   Mahatman Gandhi

Violence is as American as Cherry Pie
   H. Rap Brown/Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin

A Guide to Mass Shootings in America - Mother Jones

First we will cry and then we will act.

voyager


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:22 PM

Why do Americans want to go out shooting bears?? Unless attacked by one and in great danger, it's a wicked and senseless thing to do. Such huge and beautiful wild animals should be observed, photographed and left in peace to live their lives. Killing, killing, so strange and incomprehensible to me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:23 PM

I don't have time for silly Amerikan history.
I'd rather research the history of capital punishment.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:28 PM

I was misunderstood.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:41 PM

I don't want to shoot bears, Eliza. I don't want to shoot any living thing.
Unless I have no other choice.
I'd shoot the coyotes if I could get paid for it, though.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:58 PM

Eliza, bears that hang around human settlements -- knwn here as "garbage bears" because they ransack garbage bins as they hunt for food -- are sufficiently dangerous that they are usually shot when it is establshed that they cannot be successfully relocated.

I agree that hunting bears for sport seems wrong, but even here in Ottawa I have met a fair few people who have had scary experiences with bears.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:04 PM

I live in Rural Maine. Have all my life (up to this point)I've never seen a Bear in the wild, and I've never had any desire to kill one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: CET
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:07 PM

": RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter - PM
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:59 AM

How many times in real life has an armed intruder, bent on mass murder, been taken out by an armed civilian (or even a police officer) before he could kill anybody?

I'll rephrase that. How many times does it even *appear* that a hero has prevented a mass killing by drawing down faster than the heat-packin' bad guy?

Or even managed to *cut short* a shooting spree by nailing the gunman when he wasn't looking?

Come on, guys. How many?"

Well, here's a few that come to mind:

The Fort Hood shooting. Maj Nidal was shot and put out of action by a Military Police woman.

The Dawson College shooting in Montreal. The first cops on the scene went in immediately instead of waiting. My recollection is that the shooter killed himself when the police arrived. I don't think he was in the act of killing people when the police burst in but the point is that the police were on the scene, armed and prepared to shoot him.

Newtown, Connecticut. The police response seems to have been very rapid and according to accounts I have read, Lanza killed himself whe he heard the police nearby, and he had enough ammunition to kill every student in the school. Once again, armed intervention by the police saved lives.

Now if the Guest's point is that there is no recorded instance of a pistol-packing civilian preventing a mass murder by killing the bad guy, he might have a point. I would certainly like to hear about any cases where it did happen. However, he didn't limit his comment to civilians. He specifically mentioned "even a police officer", as if armed intervention by trained and determined people can do no good, which is patent nonsense.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:22 PM

Charles Whitman of the "Texas Tower" shootings, was 'eventually' shot by police & citizens after a long, extended effort to get to him... they 'may' have saved a few, though most people were well-hidden by the time they got to him.

Th 19 year old kid in the Wichita Holiday Inn shooting that I mentioned earlier (very similar to the Texas Tower thing) was also eventually shot & captured after police managed to get to the room beside the room where he was.,,,he 'only' killed 3 and injured 8.

That one, BTW, is missing from this list... which may list only 4 or more deaths)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:31 PM

More on the use of guns to prevent crime...

                                                                                                                      here


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:50 PM

If you listen to birther/NRA/tin foil nation that private ownership of guns saves then trillion people every day...

They cannot substantiate any of their numbers de joir other than use each other as, ahhhhh, their sources/references...

These people, some here, must think that people are absolutely syupid to believe the utter their bullshit...

In New York City, for instance, where there is strict gun control the per capital murder ate is way the heck under any large Southern city with nothing in the way of gun control...

I mean, it is beyond futile trying to have a conversation when people won't use truth but lies put out by the NRA which makes lot$ of money on gun$ and gun $ale$...

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:57 PM

"I don't have time for silly.."   

That is, no time to actually learn something about one of your favorite topics to drivel on about.    Or, more succinctly:   "Don't bother me with facts--or even ask me to get the facts."

Why are we not surprised?

It's only a shame that your attitude is widespread--and that you and your fellow intellectual giants vote.    (But of course maybe we're lucky enough that you don't vote).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:05 PM

Here in southeast Alaska I have seen many bears and had close encounters with several. This is bear country; given spawning salmon, ripened berries, forest all around and many freshwater streams running through it, it is up to humans to stay alert. Garbage bears, as Charmion implied, are the worst because humans have habituated bears to easy sustenance.

Juneau passed new ordinances a few years ago to address the problem; it is against the law now to not use bear-resistant containers and dumpsters. Offenders pay stiff fines. We do pretty well now, much better than in previous years. I remember one year when 14 bears were shot by Fish and Wildlife management. These days officials dart them, collar them and haul them out-the-road away from civilisation. If or when they come back, they are shot.

I realize this is way off-subject. Suffice to say that there are many hunters locally- I don't know what their instruments of choice are.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:09 PM

Everyone knows I voted Green.
=(:-( P)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:17 PM

"Garbage bears...are the worst because humans have habituated bears to easy sustenance."

My, my. The ursine welfare state.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:26 PM

If an armed civilian (and I'm talking genuine civilian, not off-duty cop or out-of-uniform military) tries to take out a well armed shooter, there are four possible outcomes:

1) He's successful.

2) The shooter specifically targets him because he has a gun and, thus, poses a greater threat to the shooter than anyone else in the room.

3) When police arrive, they see he's armed and shoot him, thinking he's one of the bad guys.

4) He misses the shooter and harms or kills an innocent person.

If I were a betting man and had a choice of putting $1,000 on Mr. Armed Civilian being a hero against a mass murderer and the Chicago Cubs winning the World Series, I'd go with the Cubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM

Two more thoughts...

Last year, before the elections, Wayne LaPierre of the NRA was quoted (and recorded) as asserting that Obama & his administration were "corrupt" and "Liars" who were 'seeking to take away all guns'... why? He didn't offer specific details, but seemed to simply want to hang that label on Obama because he was a Democrat and hadn't bought the full NRA line of BS.

also.... gun shows. Lots of people, including gun defenders agree the loopholes are too wide, but I was just thinking: These dealers AT gun shows, and those who sell online.... where do THEY get their stocks of weapons? I assume THEY have to licensed and have valid permits to sell the guns TO people at shows. How are those permits allocated and monitored? Even further... how are importers and stateside manufacturers monitored and regulated? There is a complex system going on to allow multi-millions of weapons of many kinds to flow into dangerous paths.... what are the details?

I can do some research, but if anyone has **clear** knowlege, tell me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:38 PM

Back in the holler in Virgina there was this ol' boy who was about 6'10" and rough as a night in jail and he came up and told me that the former owner allowed him to hunt back in the forest so, hey, me being a purdy tough 6 ft. lightweight said, "Okay"...

The guy always gave me the creeps until one day he came outta the woods with a 150 pound bear which really pissed me off so I told him that I didn't appreciate him shootin' bears and that he couldn't come back...

For a several seconds I'll admit that I thought that he was either going to shoot me punch on me... He did neither and never came back to the farm to hunt...

I mean, there are times when ypou might have to shoot a bear but don't go hunting them...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:40 PM

Probably buy them from the federal government. The Mexican drug cartels do.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:52 PM

"Why do Americans want to go out shooting bears??"

Sometimes it's so they can 'bag a trophy'. Other times it's mostly to render the fat. The hide is a bonus, and the meat will feed sled dogs and people if there's not much whitefish or deer-type creatures. Just in case that was a serious question.

In some places, whole communities depend on either rivers--which aren't worth much in day-to-day terms when they're frozen--or barges (need rivers) or planes. Slice it whichever way, and food that isn't hunted and killed is expensive. I lived 'there' for two years, and when tomatoes were selling about four for a dollar down south, they cost a buck a piece up north. Same goes for apples, oranges, bananas, etc. Meat at the Northern Store cost $30-$50 for a small roast, and 2-3 pound chickens were $15-$20 bucks. The inexpensive time which lasted for about three months was when there were winter roads. (That's another story.)

Yes, it's easy to go to the supermarket--and much more pleasant because someone else killed supper for us--but I'll tell you, that costs big time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:05 PM

More and more people are going to become hunters.
By necessity.
=(:-( ))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:16 PM

Fine... Kill deer and boars... Lot's of them... They are pests and edible... Plus, they are over-populated...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:20 PM

Bill
responsible gun owners that are concerned about home invasion still have their weapons secure. First thing, have a nervous little dog. Second if you are going to own a weapon for such purpose, get a gun safe. They have a combo key, you type in the numbers and wham there is your firearm. No kid is going to open it if it is a good one


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:30 PM

and a really good gun safe is not just a combo, there is a trick to the numbers they are made kid proof but you can have a weapon ready about as fast as getting it out of a drawer if one needs that level of security.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:54 PM

Give up, Ol'ster... Everyone is convinced that you are a responsible capable gun owner...

You ain't the problem... I doubt seriously if you need an AR15 or 30 round clips to defend yourself...

But alot of folks out there think they do... They are the problem... And guess what else they believe??? They believe that the government is coming to kill them and that Obama wasn't born in the US... These are the people buying the shit... And these people aren't, exactly, responsible adults...

These are the folks we are talkin' about here...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Songwronger
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:56 PM

Since someone quoted Gandhi earlier, here are some more Gandhi quotes:

"He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully." – M.K. Gandhi, Between Cowardice and Violence

"I do believe that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence I would advise violence." – M.K. Gandhi, The Doctrine of the Sword.

"When my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." – M.K. Gandhi, The Doctrine of the Sword.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:17 PM

Gandhi was talking about personal self defense... Every person who has ever spent any time in a dojo understands that concept... BTW, I disagree with Gandhi's thought that in defending yourself that you are practicing violence... Violence is force "above" that needed for self defense... I was taught to use only the minimum force to defend yourself...

Either way, Gandhi wasn't into packin' heat...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Songwronger
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:26 PM

Far out. Enlighten us some more with your unique insights into the mind of Gandhi. You are just so freakin awsome. Must be the dope you smoke. You know, the stuff that your boy Eric Holder runs guns into Mexico so the cartels can ship it to you. So what if a few thousand have to die along the border in violent...I mean "forceful" incidents.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:37 PM

"...but you can have a weapon ready about as fast as getting it out of a drawer if one needs that level of security."

Needs? If one actually needs that level of security, where do you keep the safe? One in every room like my ex-neighbor?...beside the TV... by the refrigerator? Tapping in numbers takes time...not to mention the time to evaluate whether you need to open it, Rep. Gohmert of Texas wishes that teacher had a gun... I wonder how long it would take a teacher to go to a safe, tap a few 'easy' numbers and get a hand gun to confront a kid with an AR-15... who has already fired 20-30 rounds.

How many stories can you find of ANYONE who has, with a quickly accessed weapon, successfully protected their home against actual (not 'imagined') danger? I will bet that there are MORE stories of sad mistakes by nervous homeowners.

I'm sorry, Dan... I do understand the IDEA of securing & protecting one's home, but 99% of the time it is just a slogan ABOUT fear & danger, rather than a genuine ongoing need that moves people. And **IF** they can justify having a gun IN the house, ready in the safe, what do they do when they open the door and/or leave the house? Now we are into carry permits and training and similar questions about response time when a possible threat is identified... etc..etc...

Since VERY few people actually have occasion to make defenses at home... or even walking down the street.. they have little to guide them except their imagination about what to do in a real situation. Practical, daily, reality in gun use is for police and SERIOUSLY trained people...YOU might be one, and I might approve YOU if I were in charge, but the issue is the thousands to millions who 'just sorta wish' they felt safer.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:55 PM

Just saw an interview with Jeffrey Toobin...senior analyst with CNN about the history of interpreting 2nd amendment.

short version: "The courts had found that the first part, the "militia clause," trumped the second part, the "bear arms" clause. In other words, according to the Supreme Court, and the lower courts as well, the amendment conferred on state militias a right to bear arms—but did not give individuals a right to own or carry a weapon."

Then, in just 2008, the 5-4 divided Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Hellerruled for the 1st time specifically about individuals rights as to guns.

Guess which justices were the 5?

So, as I posted earlier... and in case you paid it no attention... it was a VOTE by a politically biased few conservatives, pressured by many more of the same, which puts us in this awkward place today.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:58 PM

their ability to tackle problems with cheerfulness and determination'

But not it has seemed when it comes to this subject. Perhaps things might change now. It is always a good idea to be hopeful, whatever the odds.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:24 AM

The thing that's getting shot with monotonous regularity on this thread, is the breeze.
Nobody's really listening to anybody else, most are spouting second hand facts, and others have got the use of a non sequitur down to a fine art.
FFS, would someone say something constructive, for a change!
Sorry to the few who are talking sense, but you're outnumbered by eejits, by about 99 to 1


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:07 AM

How many stories can you find of ANYONE who has, with a quickly accessed weapon, successfully protected their home against actual (not 'imagined') danger? I will bet that there are MORE stories of sad mistakes by nervous homeowners

I remember having a debate in the letters section of the London Evening Standard back in about 1994. It was about the routine arming of UK police. I pointed out that in that year, of 48,000 New York police officers, 43 had been killed or injured with firearms....but 26 of those were by negligent discharges of their own or colleagues' weapons.

Others argued that in the UK, since only a small proportion of police officers were firearms-trained, to a high standard, it was unlikely to be a problem. I believe that was the same week that 3 City of London police officers were wounded when their highly-trained colleague dropped his H&K MP5 onto the canteen table and it went off. I think that in that year, 5 UK police officers were injured by firearms...4 by their own or colleagues' negligent discharges.

This year has been unusual in that 3 UK police officers have been shot dead (half of all those shot dead in the last 15 years) by criminals. But it's also seen 3 officers wounded and 1 killed by their own or colleagues' negligent discharges.

If such a high proportion of firearms injuries to police officers, who are supposed to be trained to a much higher standard than members of the public would be, are the result of negligent discharges, I'd be absolutely astonished if ready access to weapons at home or in public saved even a fraction of the extra lives it *cost* in accidental shootings.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:37 AM

Moncton, NB Times&Transcipt today...

Positions shifting on gun control


Some U.S. Republicans say gun control should be debated, along with mental health issues

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON - Some Republicans now say they're willing to discuss the politically treacherous issue of gun control, along with mental health issues and violent video games, while President Barack Obama said he supports efforts in Congress to reinstate an assault weapons ban in the wake of last week's Connecticut school shooting.

Republicans in the House of Representatives discussed the gun issue at their regular closed-door meeting yesterday, and at least some were willing to consider gun control as part of a solution to the kind of violence that killed 26 people, including 20 children six and seven years old.

The massacre, one of the worst mass shootings in U.S. history, has rattled the usual national dialogue on guns in America, where public opinion had shifted against tougher gun control in recent years and the gun lobby is a powerful political force.

Obama has called for 'meaningful action' and met with Cabinet members Monday on how to respond. He has long supported reinstating the assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004, but was quiet on the issue during his first term. Obama has said he believes the Constitution's Second Amendment guarantees an individual the right to bear arms.

White House spokesman Jay Carney said yesterday that Obama is 'actively supportive' of reinstating an assault weapons ban and would also support legislation to close the gun show 'loophole,' which allows people to buy guns from private dealers without background checks.

The president was not expected to take any formal action on guns before the end of the year, given the all-consuming efforts to resolve tax and deficit-reduction talks and nominate new Cabinet secretaries.

The most powerful supporter of gun owners, the National Rifle Association, broke its silence yesterday, four days after the school shoot­ing. After a self-imposed media blackout that left many wondering how it would respond to the killings, it said in a statement that its members were 'shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders.' The group also said it wanted to give families time to mourn before making its first public statements. The organization pledged 'to help to make sure this never happens again' and has scheduled a news conference for Friday.

As shares in publicly traded gun manufacturers were dropping for a third straight day yesterday, the largest firear ms maker in the United States said it is being put up for sale by its owner, which called last week's school shooting a 'watershed event' in the American debate over gun control.

Freedom Group International makes Bushmaster rifles, the weapons thought to have been used in Friday's killings.

The New York-based private equity group Cerberus Capital Management - which invests money on behalf of public employees like teachers, among other clients said it will sell its controlling stake in the company, while investors fled other firear ms makers.

After yesterday's meeting of Republicans, Congressman Jack Kingston said that nothing should be done immediately.

'Put guns on the table, also put video games on the table, put mental health on the table,' he said. 'There is a time for mourning and a time to sort it out.' Formerly pro-gun Democratic Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said 'a thoughtful debate about how to change laws' is coming soon. Republican Sen. Charles Grassley said Monday that the debate must include guns and mental health. And NRA member Sen. Joe Manchin, another Democrat, agreed it's time to begin an honest discussion about gun control and said he wasn't afraid of the political consequences.

It's too early to say what could emerge next year in Congress, but the comments are significant. Grassley is senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, which probably would take the first action on any gun control legislation. Reid sets the Senate schedule. And Manchin defied the NRA while the politically powerful pro-gun group has remained silent since Friday's massacre.

At the state level, Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder vetoed legislation that would have allowed concealed weapons in churches, schools and daycare centres. The Republican governor told The Associated Press Monday he was scrutinizing the bill after the massacre in Connecticut. He also drew on his own memories of a fatal shooting in his college dormitory more than three decades ago.

Snyder said in a release yesterday that public venues need clear legal authority to ban firear ms 'if they see fit to do so.' In California, proposed legislation would increase the restrictions on purchasing ammunition by requiring buyers to get a permit, undergo a background check and pay a fee.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Conference of Mayors wrote Obama and Congress calling for 'stronger gun laws, a reversal of the culture of violence in this country, a commission to examine violence in the nation, and more adequate funding for the mental health system.' Specifically, the mayors asked for: A ban on assault weapons and other high-capacity magazines, like those reportedly used in the school shooting.

Strengthening the national background check system for gun purchasers.

Strengthening the penalties for straw purchases of guns, in which legal buyers acquire weapons for other people.

Reid told the Senate, 'In the coming days and weeks, we will engage in a meaningful conversation and thoughtful debate about how to change laws and culture that allow violence to grow.' His comments mark a shift in his approach to the issue.

After a mass shooting in July at a Colorado theatre left 12 people dead, Reid said the Senate's schedule was too busy to have a debate on gun control.

And after 32 people were killed in 2007 at Virginia Tech, Reid cautioned against a 'rush to judgment' about new gun laws.

In 2010, top NRA official Wayne LaPierre called Reid 'a true champion' of gun rights.

Other Republicans said mental health, not guns, was the problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:41 AM

'When I was on the job I got to fire a Thompson sub machine gun. I was not impressed.'

and the lady in question Kendall...? I bet it made an impression!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:41 AM

Yeah, Bill... Let's keep in perspective that, as much as we don't like to admit it, is that the Supreme Court are politicians... Look at Scalia... He thinks he's a rock star... Goes around speaking to right winged groups sounding just like he's running for some office...

But never mind that...

The NRA narrative is shaping up to be blaming the ineffective mental health workers that are paid by your taxes!!! Horrors!!! Yup, whenever boxed in blame a government worker... Watch the way they fold this out...

I'm glad we are having that discussion as well but it's only a small part of the story but the NRA hopes it can create enough subterfuge to survive this latest push to slow down the proliferation of very dangerous weapons...

As for my knowledge of Gandhi and non-violence, Wrongman... I'd put my life's experiences up against yours in an over-all understanding of the non-violent movement and can guarantee you that Gandhi would have rephrased his thoughts if he knew that right winged whackos would one day use them against the spirit of his true beliefs...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:53 AM

Bill D..whwere do you keep it? In my pocket or on my night stand.

I raised three girls and not one of them ever touched my shot gun or rifle. I no longer have either weapon since I gave up hunting.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:08 AM

PeeDee- citing Andrew K. Dart's blog as a source? He's even more of a right-wing lunatic, liar and fanatic than you usually resort to.

Give us all a rest from the bullshit, eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:11 AM

'Wrongman' isn't the name of the poster in question Bobert. I know we all tend to use altered names when we respond to posts, but in a long and busy thread like this it's not a bad idea to use the actual name they posted under so as to know what is under discussion.

As for Gandhi a much more appropriate comment for the present situation might be when, in response to a question as to what he thought of Modern Civilisation he replied that 'It would be a very good idea'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:12 AM

BillD,

"These dealers AT gun shows, and those who sell online.... where do THEY get their stocks of weapons? I assume THEY have to licensed and have valid permits to sell the guns TO people at shows. How are those permits allocated and monitored?"

1. The FFL dealers at gun shows are required to comply with the same laws, checks, and paperwork that they have at their place of business.

2. Selling ONLINE requires delivery t, and handling by a FFL who is required to comply with the same laws, checks, and paperwork that they have at their place of business.


The " gun show exemption is ONLY for PRIVATE sales between individuals, who must comply with the legal requirements of their state- i.e., they are supposed to determine that the person is a resident of the same state, not a felon, of sound mental state, etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:47 AM

Sorry, McG, but I don't have a clue who wrongman, songwronger or whom ever is... Lotta folks who have the most right winged views to spew hide behind stupid names so they don't have to stand behind their posting...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:52 AM

How can a bloke selling guns over the counter have any way of knowing that someone buying the gun is 'of sound mental state'.

The presumption ought to be that they are not unless there is solid proof that they are. And that is not an easy thing to prove for any of us. Just the fact they might never have been sectioned is nowhere near good enough. You'd need references from guaranteed sources at the very least.

As for online sales there is no way these can ever ensure an adequate level of proof.

It should be the same level of proof as there would be to allow someone to adopt a child.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:01 AM

It's called "background checks"... Problem is that the data base is so out-dated that it is by in large ineffectual...

Then thrown in the gun show loophole and why even have the laws on the books...

BTW, the Republican Party has blocked every effort by Obama to allow the appointment of a head of ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms)... But that's just a sidebar here...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM

"As for online sales there is no way these can ever ensure an adequate level of proof.
"


The online sales can only be FROM an FFL TO an FFL- the FFL puts his license on the line when he fils out the paperwork on the end customer. The FFL is responsible for the checks, and many states require confirmation by the police as well. Records are kept, and subject to government inspection at any time.


Many here are making demands for new laws that are ALREADY in place. If they have not stopped gun crimes, why do you think making more laws saying the same thing will do any good????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM

The real question then is where do illegal guns come from. If they were ever legal to begin with how come the paper trail is so hard to determine? At some point they are laundered in order to become black market weapons, no?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:42 AM

Laundered guns 9? I guess that's what to do, if you want a clean shot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

John, John, John . . .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:52 AM

All it takes to "launder" a legal, documented gun into an illegal, undocumented gun is one theft or robbery, plus transportation to another jurisdiction.

No soap required.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:57 AM

There's that, Charmion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:18 AM

Maybe we should pass a law making it illegal to steal guns....

Or better yet, make it illegal to shoot PEOPLE.

THAT will solve the problem: Once the law is made, there will be no more shootings.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM

My city is being sued by the NRA because they passed a law saying that if your gun is stolen, you must report that theft to the police.
NRA objects to that?!?!? Wouldn't that do some little bit to hinder trafficking in illegal guns.

The arguments that we already have laws on the books is thoroughly bogus. If the laws were adequate, we wouldn't have a mass shooting every other month would we?

Oh wait, your going to blame it on law enforcement aren't you...("we just need to enforce the laws blah blah blah).

How does law enforcement feel about the adequcy of current laws? Anyone...?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM

Really good question (from Eric Boehlert); "If there was a toy that killed 20 children in 1 day, there'd be no debate about banning it- why is there any hesitation over assault rifles?"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM

Law enforcement has consistently been supportive of gun control... And why not??? They pull a guy over an have no idea what he's packin' or
if they are badly outmatched...

BTW, more cops were gunned down in the last 10 years than in the 50 years before that...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 01:14 PM

"... why do you think making more laws saying the same thing will do any good?

*I* do not. Laws saying something a bit different are required....such as.."NO sales at gun shows unless that show has a link to a National database of guns, owners and already completed background checks... and this linkin place and working, and monitored by police or other official not connected to the show...and no sales of military type weapons AT ALL! Including AR-15s, no matter what you want to CALL them."

See? There's a law we...at least more of us... can LIVE with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM

What do 'backup checks' amount to anyway? Do they involve checking on whether the purchaser and everyone in their household is completely trustworthy? Do they involve checking that their are adequate storage facilities where the weapons and amo will be kept locked up?   Or are they just does this guy have a criminal record and have they ever been sectioned?

A right to bear arms, however interpreted, is not the same as a right to sell arms or buy them without the most stringent requirements seen as appropriate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:35 PM

You'd be better off asking the NRA, McG... They hate 'um... That's why when they found out that the existing database was not up to the task in performing the backgound check in a timely manner and many in Congress were all for fixin' it in the early 2000s they fought keeping the system just the way it is...

But you are correct... It in itself is not the end-all-be-all but just one of the pieces...

BTW, there were 11 murders in Japan in 2008 compared to 20,000 in the US...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM

" Do they involve checking on whether the purchaser and everyone in their household is completely trustworthy? Do they involve checking that their are adequate storage facilities where the weapons and amo will be kept locked up? "

They should...and if I were in Congress, I'd vote for it... but 1st step is checking the primary purchaser well. If we can even get that, it will be better than what exists.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

"11 murders in Japan in 2008 compared to 20,000 in the US"

12,000 in the US.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM

I fully believe that no one law will solve the problem.
Having said that, I'd maintain that Any law or combination of laws
can significantly reduce the seriousness of the problem. Which would be a good thing.

Re: "Guns don't kill people..." I wonder how many home runs Babe Ruth would have hit if he didn't have access to a bat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From:GUEST,TIA - PM
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM

My city is being sued by the NRA because they passed a law saying that if your gun is stolen, you must report that theft to the police.
NRA objects to that?!?!? Wouldn't that do some little bit to hinder trafficking in illegal guns.


Hell, if one of my guns were stolen, reporting it to the police would be the FIRST thing I'd do. "Oops! I forgot to report it was stolen!" doesn't carry much weight when someone uses it in an armed robbery three months down the road and the SWAT team arrives in your front yard.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:06 PM

But when the SWAT team shows up, all you really have to do is say "oops, it was stolen".

http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/local/harrisburg/34126-16kcguns

click


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:34 PM

Yes, brucie... My bad... It was 12,000 to 11...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:38 PM

So, Beardie Brucie - you must enjoy posting spurious & irrelevent nonsense for the entertainment value alone?

'Cept it isn't entertaining- ... it's just BS.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:52 PM

The starnge thing is that bb is an intelligent person in person but get him in front of a computer and he questions not one source other than liberal or moderate ones... The further right the source the greater the chances are that he'll accept it as 100% true...

But never mind bb... He ain't a bad guy... Just has some wiring problems...

B;~)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:27 PM

You all know how *I* have argued-- not just on this thread, but for years-- about the various gun laws and the NRA; but now it is important to note how many people with credentials are saying very similar things to what 'ol Bill D is spouting.
Lawyers, legislators, news reporters, ...even some gun owners.. are agreeing that we cannot keep on like this. It is sad that it took such a horrible incident to shake the cobwebs out of some heads. If that boy had 'simply' shot his mother... or had gunned down a couple of policemen on a corner, it would probably just get 2-3 days superficial mention and become just another incident in the list....
   ...but some folks realize that TODAY there may be dozens of other disturbed kids...or even adults.. out there who are seeing this news and tumbling 'odd' thoughts over in their heads about how to make a splash in their own confused lives.

I 'live' my online life 90% in Mudcat, and there are many people here with thoughtful approaches to issues... on all sides of issues. Max says Mudcat will be around for a long time, and my ideas... no matter on serious or frivolous topics... will be here for Google to find... so I WILL reply to what I consider important topics-- especially when I think they need to offset poor reasoning or bad data.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM

How can there be any grounds for someone to claim that a requirement to report a theft of anything at all, let alone a gun, can possibly infringe their rights or harm them in any way?   What kind of nutty legal system is it. In which any such claim isn't laughed out of court, or penalised as an attempt to waste the court's time?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM

strange thing is that bb is an intelligent person

Well, I'll defer to you Bobert and believe what you have to say .... but thousands wouldn't.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM

""Many here are making demands for new laws that are ALREADY in place. If they have not stopped gun crimes, why do you think making more laws saying the same thing will do any good????""

Because Bruce, some of us have been paying attention and know that different states act in different ways, some of them not having the laws you mention.

So, the need is for laws you don't have now. Federal laws overriding states' laws in the interests of public safety nationwide.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:30 PM

"...firearms enthusiasts are stocking up on assault rifles in anticipation of tighter gun control measures."

Why am I
not surprised


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:44 PM

Yes Bill, read this article I posted yesterday:http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=148617&messages=474&page=2&desc=yes#3453868


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Elmore
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:08 PM

No ak-47's for teachers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM

These people who are buying automatic weapons in anticipation of new gun laws, how will they act if congress passes a law making the purchase and possession of them illegal? Seems like a poor investment to me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM

How can there be any grounds for someone to claim that a requirement to report a theft of anything at all, let alone a gun, can possibly infringe their rights or harm them in any way?

Take a look at the news article TIA linked to at 4:06 PM. It sounds like the NRA simply doesn't want local governments, Philadelphia in this case, making any firearms related laws. Pennsylvania law gives the right to regulate firearms to the state, not to counties or municipalities. Even though the law seems innocuous, even by gun-nut standards, the NRA doesn't want cities poking their noses into gun issues at all. The NRA doesn't own nearly as many politicians on the Philadelphia city council as it does at the state legislature in Harrisburg.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:27 PM

First of all, Greg, I don't want to ruin your holiday season but if you were to sit down with bb and have a discussion with him about anything but his politics you'd find him intelligent and very cordial... I have and I personally like the guy...

Elliot Spitzer, remember him... He has brought up a couple other ideas... First, control the bullets... Think about it...

Secondly, boycott the parent companies that own the smaller ones that build and push WMD on the American public... Think about it, Part B...

Thirdly, yeah, what Bill D says... Each of us have been in the pits on these threads over the years and we agree on just about everything...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:58 PM

"Elliot Spitzer, remember him... He has brought up a couple other ideas... First, control the bullets... Think about it..." ~ B-pert


Actually, that was the late Pat Paulsen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:07 PM

Yeah, the idea has been around a few years... I think Mark Germino even talks about it in one of his songs...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:52 PM

Bill Bill Biil....That kid might not have been able to...with a knife...http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-school.html

I am a knife collector. And have been a Martial Arts practitioner for over 57 years. Started when I was ten...Ju-Jitsu...then went on from there...Balisong, etc.

My High School English teacher was a Knife Instructor for the U.S. Army. Looked like he belonged in an accounting office, then there was the other side...

God help us if a trained individual goes wacky, or feels now's the time for payback for whatever injustice he thinks might have been done him...trust me...

It's good that you are searching for solutions, finding some consolation, trying to understand.

What is needed is a more DIRECTED relationship between parent and teacher Hey, Why is Johnny ALONE all the time? No Prom, No dates...You may find that Mommy & Daddy really should not have been, being screwed up all by themselves, or there in name only...and let the kid do what he feels like...

What to do? Observe, then act by having the authorities "have a little talk" with him, nothing heavy. Just Hey Johnny...come here for a bit.

You will not stop guns. The "nutball control" is more in the form of prevention. Mold those young minds, and MAYBE those young minds will develop into responsible adults who say to themselves, "I don't need a gun..."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:06 PM

Like you, Bob, I have a history with martial arts... Okinawan karate which involves various knives, bo's, etc...

What we have now are a lot of folks who have no skills in much of anything who can kill one shit load of people...

I a fight??? Yeah, I am very concerned with a skilled guy with a knife... Things can go badly very fast...

We don't have time to fix an entire nation of wackos with no real skills in life, arms, martial arts or anything else...

So we have to take some short-cuts for now and work on the larger picture later... We can't afford to allow unskilled whackos to hold us hostage while we rebuild and entire society...

Rethink, Bob...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:30 PM

Bob R,,, if you read my first post, 5 days but 480+ posts ago, *I* noted the story from China.

"Mold those young minds, and MAYBE..." etc...

Sure... I'm all in favor of remolded minds... as soon as you... or someone... figgers out how to DO that molding of minds away from possible murderous violence when they can't even make a dent in school bullying.

You have 10s of millions of young minds who need molding... and millions of adults to do it, most of whom were not well 'molded' themselves... or at least have no specific training in the relevant psychology. How many generations will it take to remake the culture of an entire country? Nice idea... but how about taking away the worst of their dangerous toys until we get them 'molded'?

Sorry, Bob, but yours is about the 27th suggestion of that type I have seen in the last 5 days... all very general and heartfelt with NO plan of how to begin OR proceed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 04:22 AM

"No plan of how to begin or proceed." that says it all, BillD.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:00 AM

Menatl health is an entire "other issue"... And it is so complex that neither the NRA nor the Congress has the slightest understanding...

To have some understanding of just how we have arrived here one has to go back to the early 80s when we collectively decided to spend less on mental health... That meant that a lot of folks who needed inpatient treatment were being pushed out into society for social workers and out-patient mental health professionals to baby-sit, cajole and manage... We've had this discussion before but it might be one worth re-visiting... Several of us here in the Mudpit have or have had hands on experience working with people with mental illness...

The problem isn't just the changed cultural and societal views of folks with mental illness but the logical extension of those prejudices and biases that has led us to collectively spend less and less and less on treating mental illness... "Shake it off, son" is not an option...

So, if the NRA wants to become an advocate for mental health then I'm all for that... Won't fix shit in terms of mass murders for decades, however, without the things that BillD, myself and others have advocated going back years in terms of sensible gun controls...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:16 AM

So, Gregie - you must enjoy posting spurious & irrelevent nonsense for the entertainment value alone?

'Cept it isn't entertaining- ... it's just personal attacks and racist lies.


I note you have nothing to say about the validity of what I have posted. If you think that facts are irrelevant, that says more about you and the viewpoint you support than it does about me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:19 AM

Join the club, BB.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:27 AM

DonT,

"Because Bruce, some of us have been paying attention and know that different states act in different ways, some of them not having the laws you mention.

So, the need is for laws you don't have now. Federal laws overriding states' laws in the interests of public safety nationwide."



I was referring to the requirements for a FFL ( Note the first F is FEDERAL) To transfer firearms OVER STATE LINES requires going through at least one.

The definition in Mass. law of an assault weapon included flintlock one-shot Kentucky rifles- making them illegal to transport THROUGH the state even in locked cases.


Until there is an agreed upon definition of "assault weapon" any law on such is either redundant with present law, ( outlawing automatic weapons for private owners except with stringent and expensive permits,as of 1934) which should be enforced, or is a broad attempt to ban firearms that are suitable for hunting and target shooting. The fact that a firearm has a bayonet lug ( making it a spear!) or a black plastic stock DOES NOT MAKE IT MORE DANGEROUS.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:43 AM

But Bruce - you haven't posted any valid facts!

Oh, and there's 3 "g's" in Greggie


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:59 AM

"First of all, Greg, I don't want to ruin your holiday season but if you were to sit down with bb and have a discussion with him about anything but his politics you'd find him intelligent and very cordial"

Not likely- I would no more sit down with Greggie than you would with a hooded KKK member.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 10:06 AM

Now, now, now...

Ya'll take a chill pill... Ya'll would get along fine... I'm sure...

(...or not...)

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 10:11 AM

yeah, Bruce, but what about a Klan member who WASN'T wearing a hood?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM

How many generations will it take to remake the culture of an entire country?

Overt bigotry against black people finally became socially unacceptable only after we passed strong federal laws making discrimination illegal. I don't know which caused which, but I think it would be interesting to find out what would happen to our culture if most guns were illegal and the "official" word on the subject was that gun ownership without proved need was unacceptable. Thirty years from now, it would be nice if elder politicians with youthful ties to the NRA, in order to keep their seats, had to repeatedly apologize for it and explain how their eyes were finally opened to how they were supporting gun violence. Or that overtly violent movies and games would meet the same response that games about being a slave owner or about cleaning out the ghettos would meet today. The same comparisons can be made about the role of women in our society, and which behaviors and words are acceptable and which are not.

Changing the general view of society is possible, and strong federal laws could help with that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM

An interesting aspect of the situation is that for all the smug assurances that the Supreme Court has already spoken on the question of whether there is a strong link between the right to bear arms and the obligation to participate in a "well-regulated" militia, the fact is that the Heller decision was 5-4.   Swing vote, as often happens, was Kennedy.   I'd think it likely that if a case raising virtually the same issues comes before the Court again, he might well (especially if he reads some history in the interim) influenced by the tragic results of the current gun-rights regime, vote the other way.

If NRA members and other gun owners were actually forced to show up for drills, there would be a sea change in the status quo.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:43 PM

If NRA members and other gun owners were actually forced to show up for drills...

Well, Ron - a meeting of the minds after all these years. Whooda thunkit.

Show up for drill? With their pot-bellies, booze, and anti-government virulence?

Should be a real hoot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM

BB- the law prohibiting "assault weapon" was allowed to lapse by W.
And the law was flaweed by a failure to adequately characterize just wat an "assault weapon" was. A more practicable approach would be to maintain a list of specific weapons which would be prohibited, and have each new weapon introduced by any manufacturer categorized. There aren't that many. As far as gun ontrol vs. Psychological approsches--they'tr not mutually exclusive. Both should be investigated.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:43 PM

Bill & Bobert: Bill, I was responding to your statement that this kind of tragedy could not be done with a knife...not entirely accurate. More similar stories available.

Bobert: have done all the rethinking for many years.

But then, while all the gun control yak yak is going on, I wonder if they intend to give out awards? Best gun control law, most effective gun control law, most respected gun control law,

While "they are doing that", We have this going on...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqzJlBcCsow


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:48 PM

And this...automatic shotgun...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

"the development stage"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM

Bang!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:55 PM

Now you can have your very own...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8


Seems to me a Carpenter had some pretty good ideas, we celebrate His birthday on Dec. 25

But WHO is paying attention around here?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:11 PM

Hey, that guy is my boss...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:13 PM

Bob... far mor "effective" weapons are made in machine shops, privately, every day by criminals. REAL criminals do not buy "regular" guns with serial numbers made by weapons makers.

The loose gun laws in the US make it easy for common street criminals to obtain guns. When we read that 10k+ handgun related deaths occur in USA in one year, we are talking about "legal" guns. That is a problem now... as I understand it (I am also a Canuck).

This will only add to that problem.

It's sad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 08:16 AM

" the law prohibiting "assault weapon" was allowed to lapse by W."

Since it used meaningless definitions, it should have lapsed. As stated, ASSALT RIFLES are already illegal for all practical purposes.


"And the law was flaweed by a failure to adequately characterize just wat an "assault weapon" was. "

TRUE- and NO effort has been made by those seeking to reinstate it to define WHAT they are banning.



"A more practicable approach would be to maintain a list of specific weapons which would be prohibited, and have each new weapon introduced by any manufacturer categorized. There aren't that many."

See 1934 Gun act, and Relic and Curios list.



"As far as gun ontrol vs. Psychological approsches--they'tr not mutually exclusive. Both should be investigated."

TRUE, but they will pass meaningless laws to support political agendas, and leave the problem unresolved. That has been the consistent history of the US ( under BOTH parties) in regards to many serious problems.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 08:18 AM

Well, obviously anyone who kills you is liable to be committing a crime. But most of the time they are going to be law-abiding in general, or at least conviction-free.

As has often been pointed out, statisticlly the people most likely to kill you are your nearest and dearest (and vice versa). Even here in England, though it is less likely to involve guns.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 09:24 AM

statistically the people most likely to kill you are your nearest and dearest

Yes, this is why I find the gunners' oft-repeated statement that "we have plenty of laws, but criminals don't pay attention to them" to be fatuous and dangerous. If it were illegal to obtain a gun, someone would have to choose to become a criminal before they pull the trigger, and we might have a chance of stopping them. The way it is now, most people who shoot others don't become criminals until they open fire. It's too late at that point. Also, I think that most people would not choose to become criminals in order to own a gun.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 09:28 AM

Yes, the sad truth is that because of the number of guns in ordinary folks homes that domestic murder rates are up with a direct correlation between the the numbers...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 09:54 AM

I hesitate, as a mere Brit with no personal armament and no desire to have any, to enter the bear pit, BUT.....

The US used to be looked up to by the world.

The US sent men to the Moon.

The US is still the most powerful nation on Earth.

The US has many more church going supposed Christians (remember "Do good to them that despise you"?)than most other countries.

And some of the people on this forum are telling me that the US cannot and must not reduce the chances of another disturbed person slaughtering his mother, five other adults, and TWENTY primary school children?

I'm sorry guys, but some of you need a reality check. You CAN stop this if you want to. Guns were invented to kill, guns do kill.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: saulgoldie
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 10:22 AM

We do not know for sure if certain mental conditions might cause an individual to shoot someone. We do not know that taking care of mental conditions better than we do would "fix" the problem. We do not know whether or not violent movies, games, or physical or mental abuse will directly lead to an individual shooting someone. We can form correlations and speculate. But correlations, even strong correlations do not prove causality. But they bear further investigation, that is for sure. Then, what we do with the results is subject to prejudice, preconceptions, and politics.

What we DO know, is that if there is no gun present, then there can be no gun-related death.

Saul


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:16 AM

You see the problem my friends is this. There are so many weapons out there now that it is impossible to remove them. You would have to go door to door and that isn't possible either as we have search laws. So what is the best we can do. fix the loopholes. That is about it .. sorry to say but they ain't going away .. Law abiding people would turn them in if a law was passed but no law would ever be passed. However countries like Mexico, that doesn't work. The streets run red from gun violence in a country that No one is allowed any weapon. Unless society changes, people go back to caring about others and looking after your neighbors and raising our kids right. Nothing will change. Fixing the loopholes will help, but sadly it will continue. A cililian carrying a firearm legally is a defacto cop. So unless a person is really qualified and knows that, then they should not. Those of us like Kendall, myself and others just protect other people the best we can. It all sucks but it is what it is


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: johncharles
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:34 AM

The NRA response is entirely predictable; armed guards in schools. God save America.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Megan L
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:59 AM

There is no such thing as an old gunslinger. Your eyesight is not what it was, your hand is not as steady, your reaction time is not so fast and your perception is not as accurate. It does not matter what anyone did in their former life things decline as you get older.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:03 PM

Habits are haRD TO BREAK. Ask any heroin freak. Or, a smoker.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,SINSULL
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:21 PM

New York City has and has always had some of the toughest control laws in the country. You see how well that is working out.

I personally believe that nothing can be done to control guns intelligently until reasonable gun owners cut their ties to the NRA and lead the way. The NRA cannot afford to lose their money or their numbers.
SINS, who would prefer that you all stop the childish name calling.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM

here it is.. the NRAs 'solution'

Entirely predictable and close to useless. If you were a determined, deranged wannabe killer and you knew an armed guard was waiting, at a school, where would you switch your planned attack to? A school bus? A school yard at recess? A local playground? Maybe even just a church, where the praying could begin immediately....

Why, with the NRA guiding the safeguards, the next guy might only manage to shoot 10-12!

Yes, I am cynical...and pissed... can you tell?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stu
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:47 PM

Wow.

Just heard LaPierre's statement on Newtown. One of the most disrespectful, disingenuous and downright nasty statements in the wake of this disaster it could have been possible to make. He's actually advocating having arms in schools for Christ's sake - this is pure insanity. Kids should not be taught in any building with weapons in it, they should be as far removed from violence as is possible. He is teaching your children into people whose only response to violence is more violence, like some fundamentalist Taliban lunatic. Guns in schools? My god, is there really such a lack of will and imagination it's come to that. Do you understand what this sounds like to the rest of the world (I know, you don't care, no foreigner's gonna tell the USA what to do yadda yadda yadda)?

These are your children for fucks sake! Wake up!

Supporting gun ownership (apart from hunting, sports shooting and serving law enforcement officers) means you are happy to allow this nightmare to continue. You are condemning parents to the grief of loosing a child again in the future, and if your conscience allows for that then you are beyond help. There is no protection against guns apart from giving them up and making them socially unacceptable, end of. Too many guns out there already? Make them the socially unacceptable because they are designed to kill people.

Unfuckingbelieveable.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stu
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:54 PM

"Those of us like Kendall, myself and others just protect other people the best we can."

Olddude, I have the greatest of respect for you and some of the other guys on this forum, but I have to say this is a fantasy. You might stop an attack on yourself (a US mate of mine did stop a mugger who came up to him in a car park by sticking a gun in his face), but would you really engage in a shoot-out in a crowded place, and be sure you wouldn't hurt an innocent? Might you not be encouraging the insane personal arms race that's happening in your country?

From here, it looks likes lunacy. When I'm in the states, it looks like lunacy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:56 PM

LaPierre's always been a fuckwit, Jack. And he doesn't have the excuse of Charlton Heston's cold, dead brain.

But the problem remains the cold, dead brains of the LaPierre acolytes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:07 PM

"Habits are haRD TO BREAK. Ask any heroin freak. Or, a smoker."

Or gun nut.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:10 PM

And by the way... LaPierre did not mention whether he advocates armed guards in every mall... on every level. Or at every high school football game... or on every school bus taking kids home..

And... who besides me has been watching CNN each evening where Piers Morgan has taken this whole debate to new heights? (Including interviews with various members of the far-right gun advocates!)

Last night he had a gun shop owner from Texas on (with a 10 27 gallon hat and some ideas that go WAY beyond LaPierre!
   Idea: arm teachers! Yep...that's right. Piers Morgan kept his face mostly straight as he asked how this would be done...where would teachers keep these guns..in a drawer? Why, no... ON THEIR PERSON says this guy. Properly holstered and secured, of course.... and naturally, they would be well-trained!

My mind recoils at the idea of my 4th grade teacher, Miss Isgrigg, with a Glock strapped to her hip....

This idea-filled gun shop owner agrees with the thoughtful Texas legislator Louis Gohmert about the idea that EVERYONE should be able to go armed EVERYWHERE! Church...store...political rallies...
wait... I seem to remember...

ah, well


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM

They (you, all Americans, whoever's in charge)should start treating these people, LaPierre, Gohmert etc like the mentally ill persons that they are and prescribe treatment - I would suggest a few ECT sessions to begin with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:29 PM

I can't believe this tragedy has not been raised here in this thread...

    Bath School disaster

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Print