BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 07:20 PM

Bravo Bill D.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:17 PM

au contraire, mon ami Stim

I HAVE made many suggestions in many, many threads on the subject, and I have told personal stories of friends who had guns... and the one gun *I* sort of owned 47 years ago..(a 5 shot .22 revolver which I test fired ONCE). Do you not consider my suggestion of treating guns like cars and requiring regular renewal of licenses as a suggestion? How about my advocacy of databases of ALL guns and their owners in order to trace the routes of guns used in crimes? Those and more IN ADDITION to being all FOR classes, mental health screenings, etc.

I have NOT advocated 'only gun control'. I certainly have specifically not suggested trying to take all or most guns away from almost everyone. I even realize that in a country as large and physically diverse as the US there is more 'reasonable' need for guns in some areas than for a place like, for instance, The UK.

As for "politically easy" I suggest that it is easier for a politician to stalwartly quote the ambiguous 2nd amendment and defend the staus quo than to actually look for reasonable, workable, and FAIR solutions..... and one reason why that is easier is that you get more donations that way.

(I also advocate revision of the 2nd amendment to reflect the world as it is today with slightly 'different' guns available. But I am not stupid enough to expect THAT!)

I have tried for 10 years here to be practical about my suggestions... but to my mind, NOT limiting types of weapons and clips and ammo and sales laws is totally IMpractical if we want to make a dent in the problem. (and.. any comment on my remark about feeling better about reducing deaths from 12,000 to mere 8,000?)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:13 PM

Three injured in a Texas community college, as the Texas legislature is voting to allow students to carry concealed weapons. Cool.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 03:11 PM

CTVNews.ca Staff

A 16-year-old boy was fatally shot at a home in Dorval, Que., on Monday, Jan. 21, 2013.

Teenager shot dead in Dorval, Que.

Police interviewed the boy overnight Monday but released few details about the case.
As of Tuesday morning, the investigation was not being called a homicide, but the case had been transferred to the major crimes unit.
It appears the two boys were home alone when the shooting took place around 5:30 p.m. Monday.
Immediately after the incident, the 12-year-old boy called 911 to report that his brother had been shot. Then he called his mother, who rushed home.
Soon afterward, however, she had to be taken to hospital to be treated for shock.
According to some reports, the boys found the loaded gun in a closet.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:38 PM

The NRA did not have a reason to get into politics until the era of FDR.

Not quite, PeeDee- the NRA (of which I wasonce a member) didn't go brain-dead until the late 1960's, early 1970's.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:32 PM

Hey... Got us another college shooting in Texas. No accurate reports yet but some folks got shot up.

Todays' shooting has been brought to you by the State of Texas.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:27 PM

BillD-I said,"It is politically easier to advocate gun control than it is to advocate actions that will really address the problem of violence." because it is. I didn't make that choice. Politicians have made it. The news media, at least to a fair degree, has made it, and, people like you have made it.

I am going to pick on you a bit here, and please excuse me, because I know you do care. You just happen to be here, and you've given me some examples to wor with...so...

Basically, it comes down to the fact that whenever certain kinds of shooting crimes take place, you offer gun control as the essential cure for the problem.

You, yourself, only have a made a superficial assessment of anything else beyond the availability of guns--I quote you, "I am quite willing to see society do everything it can to deal with mental health and attitudes and hobbies/habits that encourage and glorify violence! That would address problems in general- even those where no guns are involved."

Basically, it's all on the mentally ill and hobbyists! You don't seem to have developed either a comprehensive picture of the problem and you haven't suggested a solution, beyond the gun control. So it is you, not me that has chosen the easier response.

Here is a list ofEvery Gun Death Since Sandy Hook. There have been more than 1100. Most of the shootings aren't much like either the Sandy Hook or the New Mexico shootings. Were their lives less important?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:21 PM

And here is a breaking story about one of the charming folks who write those state gun laws...

                                                                                           note source and date

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:23 AM

PDQ the NRA lost me when they continued to support the gun show lobby. That just made ever sportsmen's life harder. If they only worked to stop nonsense do nothing laws then I would have continued to support them . They went overboard, fighting against BG checks and gun show revisions etc. That is where they went wrong IMHO

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:17 AM

Stim... I know the old joke. I have used it myself- but I don't think it applies here.

" It is politically easier to advocate gun control than it is to advocate actions that will really address the problem of violence."


Reply: Who said it has to be either-or? I am quite willing to see society do everything it can to deal with mental health and attitudes and hobbies/habits that encourage and glorify violence! That would address problems in general- even those where no guns are involved.
But I submit that it would not make a serious dent in GUN violence as longs as so many AR-15 types and handguns with extended magazines are easily available.

My own metaphor: No amount of traffic signs stating speed limits or cameras clocking speed or patrol cars with radar will seriously stop folks 'in a hurry' or kids who HAVE a car that will run over 100MPH from wanting to drive fast. Many localities simply treat speed limits and enforcement as a revenue producing activity... though it no doubt does somewhat lower traffic accidents.
   "Somewhat" in the case of our level of gun violence is cold comfort. You seldom know exactly who did NOT die from a gunshot... you only read of those who did. Would we be 'pleased' that 12,000 per year slowly dropped to 8,000? Friends & relatives of those 8,000 might see it differently.

Countries which have 90% fewer gun deaths per capita that the US are not 'happy' at their statistics... but they KNOW that the biggest element that keeps that % down is much less ACCESS to guns!

Do remember... those other countries DO have crazy people in similar percentages, and some of those mentally ill..or just plain criminal... DO acquire & use guns. Guns are just too much lure for those who have the desire to cause violence! In many countries, it is quite difficult to get one. In the USA, they can beg, buy or steal one with relative ease.

So... please do encourage and advocate mental health and better laws... but in 300,000,000 people, there will always be those who are missed by 'programs' and who are simply ticking bombs. (The kid in New Mexico has told authorities he "has had had homicidal, suicidal thoughts".... his family had an AR-15 and other guns in the house. He had 'never been in trouble before'.)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:54 AM

The law state 7 rounds in the magazine, does that include the on in the chamber which is 8 ? No one can answer that question, even the sheriff

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:44 AM

I am talking about NY Bobster, Joe Biden at least had people who knew firearms. I agree with his plan, it was well thought out. Our Governor in this state just got his buddies together behind closed doors and made nonsense. The only think it will accomplish is to make a law abiding person a criminal for having a clip that doesn't comply since no one even the sheriff knows what the hell they are talking about in the new law

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:42 AM

"...what happened was a bunch of NYC lawmakers got together in secret and push through some knee jerk laws that help nothing."


Without the National Rifle Association, these people whould go un-challenged.

Is that what you want?

The NRA did not have a reason to get into politics until the era of FDR.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:39 AM

So what??? I guess if you follow the NRA logic nothing can be done because it would be too hard to enforce... That's exactly what the NRA want us all to believe...

I don't buy it, Ol'ster... Not at all... I mean, if we have some meaningful federal legislation then whatever is legal where you live will be legal elsewhere unless that jurisdiction has superseded the federal legislation with even stricter limitations but...

...ain't that kinda their business??? No different than a guy throwing a party for his friends and telling them to leave their guns at home... I believe that if communities don't want ordinary folks owning guns that is their business and if you don't like it just don't go there... Ain't the end of the world...

Kinda like the inauguration yesterday... A million people attended and other than the security people there were no guns...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:37 AM

what happened was a bunch of NYC lawmakers got together in secret and push through some knee jerk laws that help nothing. You would think they would at least have some people who have knowledge of firearms advise them .. NO let claim victory and pat ourselves on the back. You wonder why the NRA has such power, because knee jerk reactions push people to them. I can't stand the NRA but I understand why they have such political clout because of the nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:27 AM

I live next to the PA border, my gun is legal in PA as I have a full conceal carry permit in that state also. Also many of my friends have a NY carry permit and live in PA. So when they go over the border they have to what, throw away their clips?   nuts actually. My sheriff friend said a nightmare to enforce.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:17 AM

It will be illegal to own a clip that hold more than 7 rounds but if we are going to a range we can have a clip with full rounds ... @#$#@! idiots

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:12 AM

Yes, the NRA goes out of it's way to puff itself up as the Meanest MFer on the block... It has served them well... When ever someone meantions gun control they already have the narrative in place that nothin will change because they are so big and bad...

We need to bust up their PR ballgame and show them for what they are... A bunch of loudmouth, boorish wimps who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag in a real fist fight...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:11 AM

NY new law, so I have to carry 7, ok but by April I have to modify my clips to only hold 7 ok, well I am gun smith so ya I can do that myself. But when I go to the range I am allowed 14 rounds in my clip. How the fuck does that work?   Next I paid and was given a life time carry permit. That is, can only be taken away if I commit a crime. Now I have to renew my lifetime carry permit every 5 years ... just to give the gov some more cash.

See what happens when idiots make gun laws. The sheriff is swamped with calls about how the hell do I do this.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:03 AM

The NRA bullshits about its membership numbers. Washington has allowed lobby groups to infringe the general rights of citizens--25,000 registered lobbyists in your nation's capital. Money buying influence. WTF do y'all expect?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:48 AM

The gun allows wimpy people to be Rambo and therefore capable of violence... Back when I was growing up it was the fist fight... If you thought you were Mr. Toughie then have at it... After a few of them most kids figured out that "it ain't all about you" and chose to try to get along...

These days there is no reason to get along when if someone pisses you off you can just pull a little trigger thing and you are Mr. Toughie...

I've told this story a couple times but it is well worth re-telling... Back when my son was about 5 years old, he, his mother and I were enjoying a nice meal in a somewhat nice restaurant when about 8 or so Rambo-wantabbes came in with handguns strapped to their legs like in some western movie... I had heard about this happening but until you are sitting in that restaurant and it happens to you you can't understand just how disconcerting it is... I mean, where is my right to peacefully enjoy a meal out with my family... The NRA doesn't get it that the rest of us have rights, also...

I mean, the NRA is hung up on 7 or 8 words out of the thousands in the Constitution... I think that in order to own a gun you sould have to memorize the short paragraph known as the "Preamble to the U.S. Constitution" where the Founding Fathers laid out their vision for America then maybe these boorish bozos would get the "our rights, too" provisions of the document...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:42 AM

"It is obvious that **controlling** sales, manufacture, registration and distribution of guns is a daunting task.... but I submit that it is FAR easier than managing 'human personalities' and monitoring the behavior of several hundred people."

This kind of reminds me of the joke that ends, "Because the light is much better over here." It is politically easier to advocate gun control than it is to advocate actions that will really address the problem of violence.

Given that, I am going to throw the cards on the table and say that there are a other reasons for being concerned about the aggressive dissemination of assault weapons--not the least of which is that there is a vocal, angry fringe element in this country who feel threatened by cultural and economic changes and who believe they are entitled to take what every action is necessary to stop them.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 03:16 PM

OF COURSE we need to pay attention to gangs.. and to mental health... and to criminal background checks! Who has a clear plan to reduce the totals of gangs & crazy people?

If guns were not so easily available to gangs... and to crazy people.. and to 'plain' criminals, innocent bystanders and quiet families would not see so many homicides.

It is obvious that **controlling** sales, manufacture, registration and distribution of guns is a daunting task.... but I submit that it is FAR easier than managing 'human personalities' and monitoring the behavior of several hundred people.

Lordy.. we regulate, license and inspect vehicles in every state! Why not use the same basic rules to keep track of items that most of us do not NEED?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 03:11 PM

I don't hold PDQ responsible for the gun carnage, or in fact, any carnage. I think that he has pretty much the same concerns that I(and most of the rest of us) do.

From what has subsequently been revealed, it seems that the New Mexico shootings did not involve either drugs or illegal immigrants. If this is true, he was simply mistaken, not "wrong". Gangs, drugs, and illegal immigrants are significant factors in all kinds of crime, and we have to confront that.

The ugly truth of the day is that the murder and crime rates among certain minority populations, in certain geographic areas, can be 10 or even 20 times that in the mainstream. Uglier still is the fact that leaders in these communities choose not to confront the problem, and the politicians who rely on them for support find it easier to point their fingers in other directions.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 02:05 PM

No problem from my perspective, pdq. If innocent people didn't get caught in the crossfire, I'd give the bastards guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:52 PM

Another website says that over 60% of gun homocides in cities with a population over 100,000 are gang-related.

Pick a figure you like.

The one I posted was suggested about the current mass homocide problem in Chicago. I misstated in the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:52 PM

"About 90% of all gun murders in the US are gang-related."

I agree. There a gang called the NRA that refuses to listen to any reason whatever and is unwilling to let go of the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:40 PM

However, sooner or later the USA will have to start talking about gangs and their influence on various illegal activities. A good place to start would be the legal gun trade and the points at which it becomes illegal. That would include the machinations of the CIA too. Subsequently, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:25 PM

pdq, your figure may not be accurate.

"The total number of gang homicides reported by respondents in the NYGS sample averaged nearly 2,000 annually from 2006 to 2010. During the same time period, the FBI estimated, on average, more than 16,000 homicides across the United States (www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls). These estimates suggest that gang-related homicides typically accounted for around 12 percent of all homicides annually."

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:12 PM

About 90% of all gun murders in the US are gang-related.

If people really want to reduce the body count they need to start talking about the gangs.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:06 PM

Subtlety: it's never been your long suit, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 10:30 PM

Hope I'm not too subtle.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 10:29 PM

Right, pdq.

I understand the 7 year old shot his 5 year old brother since the brother belonged to a different gang. too.

Your desperate defense of the US being awash in handguns is totally despicable.

You ought to go down on your knees and ask the Lord to forgive you. You really need it.

Your kind is directly responsible for the handgun carnage in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 10:20 PM

The math and simple logic tell you that no matter who did it, the easy availability of 'serious'guns like assault rifles make it more likely that they will fall into the wrong hands.
If there are 100 'legally' owned the odds are less of them getting stolen or ILLEGALLY sold, than if there are 50,000 legally owned. If there were detailed records of who purchased each one and who sold it to whom, and jail time for misuse and/or illegal sales, there might not be a story like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:43 PM

It is likely that the Albuquerque shooting that left 5 dead was both gang-related and done by an illegal alien.

There were several guns but the news media focus on the 'military style' rifle.

Anyone want to guess whether these guns are legally owned?

The news media, as usual, will tell the real story days later after their 'first impression news' has been fixed in people's minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:31 PM

Let's see if I can pull this off???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:29 PM

Sorry, Bill, but I did... Seems these event happen every day somewhere...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:26 PM

Did everyone miss MY posting of the same story at 5:26? I'm never sure when the subsequent posts just go off in other directions.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:23 PM

Yup, those killing wouldn't have happened with sane gun laws...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:11 PM

Go to the top of the page for the story.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/teenage-gunman-fatally-shoots-5-in-us-home-suspect-in-custody-1.1121909#commentsForm-362335

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 07:56 PM

Yes... A big 5 straight up... No "good time" early release... I will guarantee that such legislation would cut the shootings in the country by half in the first year while not depriving one single good guy his right to own his Glock...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 07:51 PM

No parole. Might help.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 07:08 PM

I don't think it's inane to require handguns be registered, tracked and folks who own them have to prove they have some proficiency in handling them... This wouldn't impact the good guys all that much...

People say, "Well, the bad guys won't cooperate"... Great, as part of the law let it be known that by such-a-such date you either comply or face 5 years in prison if you are caught with a handgun and hadn't complied...

Don't think this would work??? I do...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:50 PM

Yesterday was "Gun Appreciation Day" in the US. Here's a List of People Injured or Killed by Guns on 'Gun Appreciation Day' casualties of gun appreciation day

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:23 PM

All part of the plan, Dan. Inane gun laws meant to antagonize honest people so they won't support ANY gun laws. More fuel for the gun nuts that donate $$$ to the NRA... more $ for the NRA... more $ for the bank accounts of politicians.

All while people die.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM

Well my cop friends just told me I have to carry only seven rounds in the glock and leave the other seven empty. Well if I had to shoot seven times I wouldn't need the thing anyway cause I would be dead .. The gun laws are nuts ... now I agree with the law for the long guns. The only reason I can see that people want the assault rifle is because of its large large magazine capacity ... But like I said the NY law on handguns makes no sense since you are only singling out people who are licensed and the state said you are a good guy go ahead and carry. Since no one in the state is allowed a handgun without the license it makes little sense .

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:26 PM

It never ends

With the inauguration this weekend, and 'only' 5 deaths, this one may not get much notice.... like most of the 700+ that have died since Sandy Hook.


" A teenage boy faces murder and other charges in the shooting deaths of a man, a woman and three children in a home on the outskirts of Albuquerque, New Mexico, authorities said Sunday.
...

Williamson said each victim had been shot multiple times. Several guns were found inside the home, including a "military-style" rifle he said had been used in the crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:45 AM

As to the pistol and a handgun being different??? Nah, they are both handguns... I think that folks think of the pistol as having a cylinder like the guns in the cowboy movies but it is still a handgun... These days most folks have no interest in that kind of weapon because it's old technology... Everything is relative:

"My very first pistol was a cap and ball Colt
Shoot fast as lightnin' but load a might slow
Loads a might slow, I soon found out
It'll get you into trouble but won't get you out

So then I went and bought me a Colt 45
Called a Peacemaker but I never knew why
Never knew why, didn't understand
Mama says "The pistol is the devil's right hand"

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:09 AM

None whatsoever. It's designed to reinforce the paranoia and illogical pants-shitting fear of shadows that has been bred and ingrained into many (most?) Americans over the years. It must be a bloody awful way to live your life, I thank God I live in a country where guns are rare and we don't live in fear of your 'Mad Dog Killers' or 'The Bad Guys'.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:03 AM

I agree with Lighter