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BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Donuel 24 Jun 21 - 11:42 AM
Mrrzy 24 Jun 21 - 09:55 AM
Donuel 24 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM
Donuel 17 Jun 21 - 06:18 PM
robomatic 15 Jun 21 - 03:11 PM
Mrrzy 14 Jun 21 - 03:20 PM
Donuel 14 Jun 21 - 09:59 AM
robomatic 13 Jun 21 - 04:09 PM
Donuel 13 Jun 21 - 04:04 PM
SPB-Cooperator 13 Jun 21 - 01:05 PM
Bill D 13 Jun 21 - 10:14 AM
Jack Campin 13 Jun 21 - 06:59 AM
Mrrzy 11 Jun 21 - 03:57 PM
Bill D 11 Jun 21 - 03:30 PM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Jun 21 - 02:16 PM
Bill D 11 Jun 21 - 11:21 AM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Jun 21 - 06:12 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jun 21 - 06:01 PM
Mrrzy 10 Jun 21 - 05:46 PM
Donuel 10 Jun 21 - 09:25 AM
SPB-Cooperator 09 Jun 21 - 02:56 PM
Bill D 07 Jun 21 - 06:28 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 21 - 04:47 PM
Donuel 07 Jun 21 - 03:16 PM
Helen 07 Jun 21 - 03:16 PM
Raggytash 07 Jun 21 - 03:08 PM
robomatic 07 Jun 21 - 01:40 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 21 - 12:32 PM
Donuel 07 Jun 21 - 12:06 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 21 - 11:01 AM
Donuel 07 Jun 21 - 09:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jun 21 - 02:13 AM
robomatic 06 Jun 21 - 08:37 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 21 - 05:21 PM
robomatic 06 Jun 21 - 03:28 PM
Bill D 06 Jun 21 - 10:15 AM
Jack Campin 05 Jun 21 - 11:43 AM
Rusty Dobro 04 Jun 21 - 03:40 PM
Bill D 04 Jun 21 - 02:47 PM
Donuel 04 Jun 21 - 11:51 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Jun 21 - 09:31 AM
Bill D 04 Jun 21 - 08:48 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Jun 21 - 07:40 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Jun 21 - 07:18 AM
Helen 04 Jun 21 - 06:22 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Jun 21 - 05:02 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Jun 21 - 04:50 AM
Donuel 04 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Jun 21 - 03:03 AM
Bill D 03 Jun 21 - 01:18 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 11:42 AM

I saw the parents who did this for their slain son.

Sasha Baron Cohen has humilliated these NRA officials as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 09:55 AM

I read about this. Ha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/559893-former-nra-president-gun-rights-advocate-speak-at-fake-high


The 3,044 empty chairs represent the high school graduates that were killed by gun violence.

NRA officials did not know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:18 PM

Lobbying isn't just squauking the loudest . It involves donations aka getting paid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 03:11 PM

The NRA currently lobbies in the traditional sense, they have supported with campaign finance money those congressfolk that pass the know-nothing legislation mentioned above, they have maintained or financed spokespersons on radio and video media with an extremist political agenda, and they have continued to keep as Executive Vice President a nutjob because he is a highly effective and highly quoted super spokesperson.

They have joined forces with the 'fear and loathing' elements of the current culture wars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 03:20 PM

To be fair, the NRA merely lobbied. Congress passed laws prohibiting gun death research.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 09:59 AM

We work for the NIH and this is very old news I posted long ago too, still I'm glad you are informed. Points of view are inherently self centered, like yourself for example. To be fair, me too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 04:09 PM

And Don'l catches up to my post of 07 Jun 21 - 01:40 PM


It is somewhat ironic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 04:04 PM

The NRA had laws passed that made it illegal to compile data on gun violence and research into the medical treatment of gunshot wounds by the NIH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 01:05 PM

again

Victim to legal gun ownership.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 10:14 AM

Yes... but simple statistics are not nearly so...umm.. interesting... hmmm?

The overriding point is that easy access to guns, legal or illegal, means that they are more likely to be the simplest method of committing suicide or robbery, settling arguments, seeking revenge, ...or just expressing anger, frustration and general mental instability.

   It may be that the % of the population likely to commit gun violence doesn't change much, but as the population increases, the more instances will occur. Copy-cat killings as violence prone people read about others is probably a factor also... I don't see many interviews with those who do it, as they very often die in the process.

BTW...that "Beltway Sniper" thing in Maryland/DC a number of years ago... 2 of the incidents happened within 5 minutes drive of my house.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 06:59 AM

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/man-kills-wife-gun-montgomery-b1864691.html

More than 4 times as many gunshot deaths are women victims of domestic violence than are the result of mass shootings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 03:57 PM

I disagree that making guns illegal would be a first step toward changing attitudes. Cart before hearse, I might even add.

When has making anything illegal made it less desirable? Prohibition didn't work, eother.

Anyway, if attitudes changed, gun laws would be moot.

I agree that Murrica glorifies violence, and that it ought not. Sigh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 03:30 PM

Yeah.. lots of IFs. I really love supposed analysis with NO idea how to begin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 02:16 PM

it is down to governments to legislate. But they mind find that gun control is much less hassle. And if film goers don't have the appetite to watch each gun victim going through a protracted slow death and vote with their feet, then it wouldn't be worth the film industry's interest to portray gun violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 11:21 AM

Sure... would YOU like to take the lead in that effort to alter the entire film and TV industries attitudes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 06:12 AM

And also stop glorifying violence by heroes in action films and tv programmes, or at least fully show the entire impact of someone being killed or wounded in full, from first response, patient transport, hospital response, and the emotional impact of every individual and eye-witness, the impact of crime scene disputation, etc. Then instead of the 10 second suspension of reality, it would add anything between a day and a week of the programme film running time. Then at least violence would no longer be entertaining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 21 - 06:01 PM

A major step towards changing attitudes to violence would be to make it illegal to walk around with a gun in your possession.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jun 21 - 05:46 PM

Lots of places have liberal gun laws and lots of guns, but only in Murrica is it considered a right to shoot people for annoying you, rather than a responsibility to make sure nobody gets shot when there is no life on the line.

Yes, if guns were harder to get, fewer people would be able to shoot other people for no good reason.

But changing the attitude toward violence is way more necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jun 21 - 09:25 AM

Thats why arming little kids is not a good idea, although it has been proposed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 02:56 PM

Another one


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 06:28 PM

When a female member of congress was shot at an outside event a few years ago, in the crowd was a young man who was armed, and was reaching for his gun.... before he could draw it, someone grabbed the shooter's arm and he was captured.
The young man said that he was mistaken about where HE thought the shot came from, and he was glad he hadn't shot the wrong person.
   In that Colorado movie theater a few years ago, can you imagine if 7-8 people had been armed and began shooting...maybe at each other in mistaken idea about their target?

   Good guys with guns can be more dangerous than bad ones.

Too many guns... too many disturbed and/or angry people... far too few solutions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 04:47 PM

What you are calling my "predigested arguments brought to the fray" are nothing of the sort. What is happening here is that you've brought a tired old cod-aphorism to "the fray." We've all heard that one a thousand times. You have extremely liberal gun laws and you have extremely high rates of gun deaths. Do try to make the connection.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 03:16 PM

We used to average 30,000 gun fatalities per year which includes everything from suicide to individual murders and not just mass shootings of 4 or more people at a time. At least thats my take on the low numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Helen
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 03:16 PM

I watched the ABC America News yesterday and there were alarming statistics of the number of children injured or killed in the U.S. in gun related incidents. Two children have been fatally shot just this week.

What does it take to stop this senseless violence?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 03:08 PM

Only 283? (in 5 months ........ I've looked at the figures)

Well to most sane people that's 283 too many, and that is only the reported number.

19,379 people in 2020

15,292 people in 2019

39,740 people in 2018

Perhaps someone needs to give their head a shake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 01:40 PM

You bring your predigested arguments to the fray and overlook the elegant simplicity of the statement which is not an argument.

It is a statement of fact.

People are the killers
Guns are the extremely efficient and effective tools.

The problem is the willingness of the people to be the one.
The problem is also the ready availability of the other.

Many problems can't be solved by addressing only one of the above. They HAVE to be dealt with by addressing both.

This means there must be accurate data collection.
There must be education.
There must be regulation.

Until all of those are faced and dealt with the problem will not go away.

A lot of the other statements only spread heat, not light. The lack of understanding of the aphorism above only underlines the truth:

Guns don't kill people.
People kill people.
Guns just make it very very easy.

An extremely well known and somewhat influential wingnut made an erroneous and dangerous aphorism:

"To stop a bad guy with a gun, it takes a good guy with a gun."

It completely ignores the likelihood that the gun can change a non-killer into a killer by its availability. I'm thinking abourt an old duffer who had his gun in a movie theater and shot someone who was merely being a pest. It's as simple as observiing that if your only tool is a hammer, your problems take on the appearance of nails. Once the duffer had shot the nuisance guy, it was retroactively a case of self-defense. Because, now, it had to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 12:32 PM

Well it's bear country, not people country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 12:06 PM

People who live in bear country deserve a special exemption from some sensible gun laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 11:01 AM

Read what again? Guns are made for killing. If guns were made just for irritating people, then bullets would be made from foam rubber or pieces of potato. If guns were intended to hurt and not kill, then bullets would be made from balsawood or dried peas. You put a gun into someone's hand and they can kill from a distance. Unless you were to resort to bows and arrows or slingshots or Russian nerve agents painted on doorknobs, then guns are just about the only means that you can use to kill from a considerable distance. You make it easier for people to kill with guns and your kill numbers will go up astronomically, and your gun kill numbers will go up astronomically. That's what your warpers of the Second Amendment have delivered for your country. Brainless faux-aphorisms about "it's people, not guns", are an excuse for keeping things as they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 09:45 AM

In the USA this new year alone, guns have injured over 1,000 people
but have Killed only 283.

By robomoron's arguement it is apparent 'people' are notoriously bad shots.
He might even agree that guns need to be 200% more lethal to help 'people' with their murderous intent and btw
stop picking on the poor innocent gun!


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 02:13 AM

Before rushing to judge that hapless mother,
how do we know the neighbours dog wasn't carrying a gun..???

.. it is America...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 08:37 PM

Steve: In all earnestness, maybe you should read it slowly all the way through and think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 05:21 PM

That is absolute bollocks, robomatic, and is a lameduck excuse for maintaining your country's abhorrent gun indulgence exactly as it is. Maybe you should ditch the denial of your annual gun death statistics, as compared with countries that have sensible gun restrictions...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 03:28 PM

I did not originate this, but I take every opportunity to echo:

"Guns don't kill people.

People kill people.

Guns just make it very very easy."


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 10:15 AM

An example of what we are up against here in the attempts to combat guns...
Judge who LOVES 2nd Amendment.

Coupled with "states rights", it reminds me of Sisyphus and his stone....but here there are several 'stones', and if one gets moved up a bit, others roll back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 11:43 AM

It's quite likely that a small child hit in the stomach will face a lifetime of medical repairs. Which means that gun nut just shot herself into bankruptcy and will end up living under a bridge regardless of the criminal repercussions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 03:40 PM

Meanwhile, over in the UK, a fifteen-year-old was walking to school in our quiet village when his former best friend got out of a car which he had borrowed/stolen from his father, took from the boot a shotgun which he had borrowed/stolen from his grandad, and shot him in the face at close range.

The court case goes on, and so, in some shape or form, does the victim’s life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 02:47 PM

"And I will continue to notify this thread as and when these tragedies continue to happen"

You're going to be very busy. Debate will happen either way. It does on the news media I follow almost every day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 11:51 AM

The govenor of California asked he rhetorical question "What is wrong with us"
Its time someone answered his question


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 09:31 AM

Bill,

And I will continue to notify this thread as and when these tragedies continue to happen. It is only be ensuring debate that the world does not become sanitised about the impact that dogged clinging on the so called liberties has on innocent people's lives.

I have debated the subject and provided international comparisons over and over, so now I am just raising and commenting on individual events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 08:48 AM

Helen..I have over the years posted many times about the history of the USA and guns.... and the serious issue of **States Rights** and the problem of amending the Constitution to clarify the 2nd Amendment.
I KNOW the rest of the world can barely comprehend how it all works.. and doesn't work.
Be assured, most of us are NOT obsessed with guns... but enough are that the problem can not easily be addressed when many members of Congress (guess which party) dodge the question.
   Every country has some issue that divides it... we just have one of the most visible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 07:40 AM

Because it happened to her own son, hen there will be one positive coming from this: it is unlikely she will want to own a firearm again - but the problem is that for everyone else it is somebody else's child, which doesn't matter to them.

Some of the press is already referring to this as an accident. Like she accidently bought a firearm, she accidentally loaded it, she accidently carried it, she accidently took it into her hand, she accidently aimed it across the road and she accidently pulled the trigger.

The only accident was that she was a bad shot and instead of killing someone's pet dog she missed and shot her son in the stomach instead.

I hope she gets a life sentence. She is a danger to society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 07:18 AM

Same in the UK, Helen, but I fear that the US is a lost cause - way too much money involved in the firearms industry, way too many brainwashed Americans who believe in a flawed interpretation of a badly-worded 2nd Amendment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Helen
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 06:22 AM

In Australia, it is extremely rare and usually makes headline news if someone shoots someone else, and it is even more rare if it is a mass shooting. One of the biggest mass shooting in Australia in the last century was at Port Douglas in 1996. That's 25 years ago. We have had a couple of terrorist or similar attacks, but apart from rival bikie gangs or drug deals gone wrong, it is very, very rare.

When I look at news about shooting events in the USA, it seems to be perceived as commonplace, almost like an accepted norm in society.

I don't get it. How can that be socially normal in a highly developed country?

Our firearm laws and firearm controls are very strict. It's not easy to buy a firearm. You need a gun licence. The Police control the licences. It is well controlled and socially responsible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 05:02 AM

Because she was carrying a firearm?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 04:50 AM

It isn’t. Where did I say it is?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

why is shooting dogs worse than shooting people or children


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 03:03 AM

OK, why in the name of all that’s holy would anyone shoot a neighbour’s dog that escaped from the owner’s yard? People who live in civilised countries shouldn’t behave like barbarians - here, on the rare occasion a neighbour’s dog escapes their yard, we would use food as a bait to catch it and take it back to the owners. Either that, or call the local authority’s Dog-Warden.

Whatever, it’s more evidence of the lunacy of a country that allows any Tom, Dick, or Harriet to own guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 01:18 PM

Gee...*I* started this thread in 2012. Go read the first page and note how --- ummm... much better worse things have become. And now Texas and other states are making sure it never improves.


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