BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 07:38 AM

The allegedly "conservative" position seems to be, "If you can't stop all mass shootings by lunatics, or even some individual shootings, don't even try - because if you do, Big Brother will break into our homes to confiscate our legal firearms as America sinks into nightmare dictatorship."

Make sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 09:55 PM

" before making such a brilliant statement"    "that is often the case"

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 09:53 PM

"handguns and pistols are different". Sure they are.

Perhaps you'd like to consult a dictionary before such a brilliant statement.

Mine says a pistol is a type of handgun.

Dictionaries can be surprisingly helpful if one actually wants to make sense.   But of course, perhaps that's not the goal of the poster. On Mudcat it seems that often the case.

An amazing number of people are far more interested in heat than light.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:21 PM

In some ways, ammunition IS a major part of the problem. There are enough guns of various types out there that we could search forever and not 'take away' a significant percent..... but unless they can get new ammo to replace what they use, (and some of these guys cannot bear to give up 'practicing'), it could lead to higher prices and reduced supply.
(and no... most of these guys could NOT 'load their own' for most types)

There is no single, simple way to reduce the horrible statistics.... not even with a guard at every school. **IF** every school had gates & guards, crazy fools who just want to kill will find other targets and locations... buses, playgrounds, more malls, theaters, stadiums...etc.
It would be a huge 'live' version of Whack-a-mole!... and there will never be a shortage of crazy fools who can beg, borrow or steal weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:51 PM

Ammunition is not the problem. It's easy enough to remove a projectile (rifle bullet) and reverse it, reset it and it'll keep its course for 200 yards. The damage from it is incredible. So even with standard load cartridges, there's no real way to limit killing by dickin' around with ammunition laws. Other than a total mind readjustment of way too many gun owners, the only other option is gun laws that have teeth AND are enforced, both necessary if one hopes to reduce the death rate caused by people who have guns so readily available to them. imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:34 PM

and Bobster, ya ain't going to bring down a elk or moose or bear with a .22
that's why a ott six or a .308 is so good. Ya can load it up for Alaska brown bear or you can load it down for deer or use standard round for Elk.

Can't limit Ammo, won't work unless it is Teflon cop killer bullets or explosive tips etc but they don't sell them and you really can't make them..

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:51 AM

Bobster no one should own a handgun unless they meet New York standards. Now if they can pass all that shit, go ahead cause it is a good guy packing. I wish the feds would pass that law. Like I said we have to have the same BG tests and the same skills as a state police officer. And they will not give you a conceal carry permit unless you do have just cause. That one is not easy at all to get. I have one .. but they don't issue many. Hunting with a handgun takes a lot of skill. Many sportsman like myself hunted deer with a handgun since in my county up until last year, you could only use a shotgun or handgun if you had a license. Now semi auto handguns, designed only for defense is correct, however it is the weapon of choice for competitive shooters. There is a long history of semi auto sports shooting. The US government started competitions after WWI and would actually give medals for citizen skills .. How things have changed. Although you don't think so, I am on your side and so is most sportsmen. WE don't want bad guys getting these things. Now for the AR, I don't understand why anyone wants one. A semi auto AR or AK is like having a pocket watch with no dial. If a collector wants one get a real one with a Class III FFL.   Then you can go out and get a ma duece.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:03 AM

"Well regulated militia"

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:26 PM

900 Americans have been murdered in the 30 days since Sandy Hook...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:24 PM

The National Rifle Association leadership seems to bullshit about the number of members it has. People keep flinging around the 4 million figure. I doubt it's even as high as 2/3rds of that. I do not know why the US government even allows them into the conversation given their track record. I wish Washington would wake up.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:21 PM

The problem with that is that for every bad guy who gets killed another 99 good guys (or not so bad) get killed, too... If I had it my way there would be no semi-automatic handguns in the world... Their only use is killing other people...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:14 PM

As an aside, many gang deaths are included in Canada's figure. Most of us don't give a shit about that. The more they kill each other the better it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:46 PM

Yup, brucie... That's it... Obama and gun control people understand this fully well... We all know the problems... It's just that we need to get the pump primed... Like I said, "first step, long journey"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:42 PM

BTW, when it comes to ammo... Back in the holler in the Va. mountains we had trouble with deer... My rifle is a .410/.022 over under "survival" rifle and the P-Vine would occasionally get real pissed at a deer in her garden... I used the cheapie .022 ammo from Walmart and could usually kill Mr. Deer with a single round... No hollow point... No nutin'... Just a chuck of lead...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:42 PM

So lemme see if I have this right. One failed attempt with a shoe bomb and we all take our shoes off at the airport. Ten thousand handgun deaths and nothing should change. I get it now. Right. Uh huh. Yeah. Yeppers. Clear as a fucking bell.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:37 PM

No, I get it 100% Gn-ze... Semi-automatic handguns are what are killing 99% of Americans... I am terribly disappointed that we aren't talking about them...

I think that we need to get something on the books just as starting point... Seein' as people are locked in on military style rifles then this is possibly the only 1st step in a long journey...

Please understand that you and I are on the same page...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:31 PM

Posted again without comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:17 PM

Bobert..."If this be "greandstanding", then perhaps the poster can tell us just why anybody outside the police and the military needs a pistol."

Yeah... I, as the poster, can tell you EXACTLY what I have said all along... THEY DO NOT NEED A HANDGUN! (Handguns and pistols are different. Technical point but worth understanding for the purpose of dicussion).

Why do NONE of you read my posts? Not even Bobert? Damn, man... yer one of the good guys and even YOU don't read my posts. THAT was my complaint just now and it's my complaint immediately again based on you misinterpretation of what I SAID... in MANY posts in MANY threads. I am on your side but your side just don't seem to wanna DO anything or listen to ANYONE... including me. Haven't seen any evidence otherwise yet.

So, again, when yer bleedin, it's yer own fault. I gotta take a nap. I shant be awakened by gunfire. We still have some good gun laws in Canada... for a while... >;-(

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:16 PM

Ahhhhh, hollow points!!! Yes, good ol' hollow points designed to kill people... Why are they legal ammo, Ol-ster???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:12 PM

No Bob, he used hollow point in the handgun, which most handguns today are designed to use exclusively ... guns like the glock are not safe to use hardball ammo. And yes it expands and kills, that is why it is called deadly force. In the AR in Nam they use exclusively like in the current conflicts full metal jacketed which are metal piercing. Not because it causes less damage but because it shoots through troop transports and cinder blocks and body armor. Hollow points are useless in the military. The reporting of ammo is new people who don't know weapons. It is not the ammo, it is the weapon the ammo goes in. Example. Swat teams use hollow point .308 rounds in their sniper guns. The .308 hollow point is probably the most used deer round there is besides the .3006 ... Now is the .308 a military ammo yup is it a sportman ammo yup ... difference is, the weapon it is used in

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:08 PM

48 year old guy died today in Richomnd from being accidentally shot by his 4 year old nephew...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:03 PM

Posted without comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:57 PM

It's not the caliber, Ol'ster... What has been reported is that the kind of ammo used at Sandy Hook is described as the type of ammunition that is "designed" to inflict the most damage after it makes contact... That tells me that there must be another kind of ammo that doesn't do as much damage...

Now I've heard this several times from several news sources... The point is that if there is an ammunition that is out there that is all but guaranteed to kill no matter where the bullet enters the body then I don't want that ammo on the street... I recall my buddies talking about the M-16's ammo in Nam and that's what they described... Sounds like a special class of ammo to me...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:54 PM

and what is the difference, those weapons have a number of high capacity drum clips, 100 rounds each. also easy to make fully auto since that is what it was designed to do, single shot, three round burst, or fully auto.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:52 PM

Bob the .223 ammo is as common as grass. Many people just use the .222 ammo in the AR ... fires the same .. like a .32 special deer rifle can use 3030 cartridge also. the .223 is typically a hard ball or full metal jacketed round but you can get the .222 in hollow points if you so wish. That is a varmint round for woodchucks etc. Nothing special about the AR round or the AK round .. common rounds for hunting also.. The weapons however are designed for military use via its rate of fire and its setup. Not designed for hunting at all but bolt action hunting rifles can and do use the same rounds in a number of bolt action sports guns, 30 cal is a standard deer round. 222 is a standard varmint round

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:42 PM

George H. W. Bush is credited with inventing "The Elitist" who has served as a reliable boogie man for right wing...

I find it interesting that the NRA's first ad pulled out "The Elitist" for another round of kicking by wacko-nation...

Next up??? Obama's daughters??? These people a sickos...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:36 PM

If this be "greandstanding", then perhaps the poster can tell us just why anybody outside the police and the military needs a pistol.

The few times a homeowner drives a would-be criminal away with a pistol may make good press-- (we've seen some colorful stories on this thread which seem to fit snugly the macho image fondly cultivated by some guys) --but they are swamped hugely by the times people are shot by relatives or people they know--not to mention the mass shootings which seem to increase yearly.

It's time to make it less easy for people--whether wacko or not--- to reach for a pistol to solve arguments. It actually should be just as macho to solve problems with fists or knives--and the body count will sink dramatically.

And spare us the drivel about "only outlaws will have guns".   Wrong.   You can keep your rifles (not semi-automatic or automatic) and the police and military will still be armed to the teeth--which I'm sure is a great comfort to you. If the police are not up to your standards, the public can make them improve.

Of course you can also forget about hiding in the threadbare 2nd Amendment, which, as I noted earlier, was never intended for an "every man his own militia" approach a la the NRA--and is now hugely outdated for the purpose it was in fact designed---which never did work.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:27 PM

Well, then how did the shooter at Sandy Hook have this ammo if his mother bought everything legally, Ol-ster???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:19 PM

Yup a simple metal file. On heavy machine guns it is the missing outside plate .. that any lathe could make

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:14 PM

Bad guys have unlimited access to.... FILES! Yeah! That`s it! Ban files so they can`t use them to modify repeaters to... oh fer fuck sake!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:02 PM

and ammo has nothing to do with it actually. It is the rate of fire and that is why I support the assault weapon ban ... why cause if I want one I would get a fully auto one with a Class III FFL license but I don't want one for any reason. People can still buy new if they want just get the right license and get checked out first. Ya see bad guys wont do that

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:58 PM

bob the ammo you speak of is already banned. You cannot buy incendiary ammo or explosive tipped or tracer. Full metal jacketed rounds are common place and are used by target shooters Impossible to ban them

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 05:49 PM

Yo, Ol-ster... If I am not mistaken there is both military and non-military style ammunition... It has been reported that the reason there were so many deaths from the shootings at Sandy Hook was because of the more dangerous form of ammo...

No???

I think I'm correct on this...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 05:42 PM

Bobert... "If we have 20,000 gun laws on the books and still have 100,000 Americans shot every year then we have 20,000 wrong laws...
Other countries have right laws and they work... Why don't we copy folks who are successful rather than throw up our hands over and over and say, "Geeze, it won't work"??? How do we know??? We haven't ever tried real "gun control"... The laws always get screwed with loopholes, bad language no teeth and so we end up the murder capital of the developed world..."

Gee golly gosh... I wondered if anyone ever said that in any other gun threads before or in THIS GUN THREAD?!

Reading these threads tires me out. Am I the only one that is tired? = am I the only one that reads all this absolute bullshit and greandstanding by a bunch of people who have their heads stuck up their arse or in the sand?

Once again, YOU are the problem. Get educated. Get on board and DO something about it.

Anyone wants to ask me to explain that can read THOUSANDS of posts an MANT gun threads. If yer too lazy, when you get shot, you fucking deserve it you moron.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 04:30 PM

"capacity applies only to criminals"

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:40 PM

"capacity for a handgun is meaningless".    Not so.   The more felonies someone is charged with, the less likely he can plea bargain the sentence away.

Remember how they got Al Capone.


And if the limit discourages even one person from not buying a handgun, it's worth it.

You still haven't told us why you feel it's necessary for life as we know it that anybody outside law enforcement and the military should have a handgun.

So the more red tape the better.

My sympathy for the poor gun owners is a bit limited. As is, probably, the sympathy of Newtown parents for said owners. D'ya think?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:25 PM

There was a time when major news organizations didn't consider the ravings of lunatics newsworthy - unless they held public office.

However, as news keeps morphing into interactive entertainment ("Tweet us what *you* think, and we'll read it on the air!"), that rule falls by the wayside.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:16 PM

The whole freakin' world that had television was watching the moon landing, Lighter, but there are conspiracy theorists who purport to believe that was staged on some back lot in beautiful, downtown Burbank.

When people are determined to cast aspersions and whip up suspicion, no amount of common sense or consensus will stop them.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:54 PM

On the "Newtown Hoax":

http://news.yahoo.com/why-sandy-hook-massacre-spawned-conspiracy-theories-184323398.html

I must be pretty stupid, 'cause I think it happened pretty much like CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and Washington say.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:42 PM

*In New York*, olddude. In other states, things are different, and the subject legislation has to fit 50 different state jurisdictions and -- how many territories is it now?

I thought getting things done in Canada was complicated, with 10 provinces and three territories. You guys have us beat all to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:22 PM

There is no private transfer of a handgun in this state. a registered handgun can only be sold to a licensed person that has a handgun permit. So what I am saying in NY magazine capacity for a handgun is meaningless because the only people who are suppose to posses one even in their hone must be licensed and registered or its a felony. So all of that new law in regard to handguns and capacity applies only to criminals who don't care anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:14 PM

Because it is a non issue in NY. Look if you cannot own a handgun in this state unless the FBI approves, a judge, the sheriff, the chief of police, handgun training .. photographed, fingerprinted and full BG check with mental health checked also. If you pass all of that, what the hell difference does it make if you carry 7 or 14 rounds. So you have to go through the same shit as the state police do .. so why care. A person carrying legally has to pass the same thing as every cop in this state

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:49 PM

New owners of handguns in NY state will only be permitted a 7-round magazine, rather than 10. That sounds like it does have a meaning.

Why is this not a good thing, which every reasonable person should advocate?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:19 PM

Ron
I said that in the state of NY because you cannot own a handgun in this state unless you are licensed and to get a license is very complex so it is meaningless for New York state. Obama was talking federal and the ban on clips over 10 rounds was in place before on new firearms. apples and oranges.

Bobster ya can't ban military ammo. A 30 caliber is an 3006 used for deer hunting. The Ak 47 fires a 30 cal round. The AR fires a .223 with is nothing more that .222 standard varmit hunting round .. besides ya can reload these anywhere

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:08 PM

Well, the proposals are out there... It really boils down to some very reasonable ideas that aren't rocket surgery...

1. Ban military style assault rifles...

2. Close the gun show loophole...

3. Restrict magazine capacity...

4. Modernize the data base for background checks...

5. Lift the ban on funding gun violence research...

Horrors, right???

Not really...

Here's what didn't get proposed:

1. Registration of all handguns...

2. Certification that gun owners understand how to use them...

3. Ban on military style ammunition...

I mean, let's get real here... We should be able to accomplish what Obama has proposed... I'll be composing letters tonight to my two senators and my congressman...

Will you???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:31 PM

"no issue with anything..."   But you did earlier say you had a problem with permissable magazines being reduced from 10 to 7 bullets.

Exactly why?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:24 PM

I have no issue with anything I just heard on the press conference. Been saying the same thing myself for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:13 PM

"If over 60% of UK citizens wanted ANYTHING, our politicians would be lining up to keep their jobs, so WHAT are you doing WRONG?"

I lost a very long post last night answering this in detail. I may try to reproduce it today.

Short version- our political system, which has its good sides, makes it very hard to change some things. You in the UK have no idea what we struggle against!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:33 AM

New NY state law reduces permissable size of gun magazines from 10 to 7 rounds.

It seems a reasonable request to ask the Mudcat gun enthusiasts just why this is such a terrible and unfair burden for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:18 AM

So exactly why do you need a modern pistol with a capacity for over 7 bullets?

Nobody outside of police or military could conceivably need such a thing. But, to the NRA and their gun-nut followers, it's not about need. It's about want. They want them in the same manner that a four-year-old wants the latest toy advertised on television, for pretty much the same reasons, and they pitch pretty much the same sorts of tantrums when someone tries to tell them they can't have it.

What I don't get is this: Federal migratory waterfowl laws limit the capacity of repeating shotguns in the field to three rounds. Most pump-action or automatic shotguns have an actual capacity of five shells, but removable plugs are inserted to reduce that capacity to three for duck hunting. Nobody complains about it. It's like someone has decided ducks have more right to a reasonable chance of survival than humans. If you want to hunt mallards, you only get three shots before you have to reload, but if you want to hunt movie-goers, kindergartners, or Democratic politicians you can use as big a magazine as you can get your hands on.