BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:55 PM

From the Huffington Post:

A producer behind a popular gun enthusiast YouTube channel was found dead with a single gunshot wound to the head at his business last week.

Police in Georgia are investigating the apparent homicide of Keith Ratliff, a 32-year-old Franklin County resident.

Authorities found multiple weapons at the scene of the crime, some manufactured by Ratliff himself, WSBTV reports. Investigators have not identified a motive.

Ratliff was known as an outspoken gun advocate. In a message posted to Twitter on Aug 11, 2012, he wrote: "I went to the movies with my pistol in my pocket the whole time I was praying that somebody would try to pull a Batman!"

Huffington Post Article

YouTube Gun Advocate Shot in Head

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:32 PM

Bobert... I say you "are on the same page" because you, one of the people I most respect in this whole debate, are still on the same page as you were all along when you say the NRA cannot be beat and the laws cannot be ammended and new laws cannot be made.

They can and they will be beaten. Good guns CAN happen. And NOW is the time. SDon't say that past efforts that failed precude future efforts.

Get on the NOW page, my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:37 PM

Stim just posted two links. The guy loved guns and had many in his office. Didn't do him a damned bit of good.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:38 PM

Of course, it'll be another fuckin' post people don't read.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 08:29 PM

Ummmm ...

I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 09:36 PM

I don't see any posts by Stim????

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 10:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:55 PM

From the Huffington Post:

A producer behind a popular gun enthusiast YouTube channel was found dead with a single gunshot wound to the head at his business last week.

Police in Georgia are investigating the apparent homicide of Keith Ratliff, a 32-year-old Franklin County resident.

Authorities found multiple weapons at the scene of the crime, some manufactured by Ratliff himself, WSBTV reports. Investigators have not identified a motive.

Ratliff was known as an outspoken gun advocate. In a message posted to Twitter on Aug 11, 2012, he wrote: "I went to the movies with my pistol in my pocket the whole time I was praying that somebody would try to pull a Batman!"

Huffington Post Article

YouTube Gun Advocate Shot in Head

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 10:22 PM

Gn-ze,

I am sorry but I don't believe that the Republicans are goin' to allow any meaningful legislation... It's a good *political move for Obama 'cause it's gonna make the Republicans less electable in 2014 but...

... I hope I am wrong but...

... I have seen the way things work in our whack'd out congress so...

... don't hold yer breath...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 12:11 AM

"I went to the movies with my pistol in my pocket the whole time I was praying that somebody would try to pull a Batman!"

Had he said "...with a pistol in my pocket, for fear that someone would ...", I might have just waivered in my feeling about his best judgement. But the "..praying that someone would..." is another entire step in attitude. If he "got one", would he have mounted the head on his wall as a trophy?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 11:10 AM

what Joe Biden and the NRA is discussing is exactly what I been saying forever.

1) getting rid of gun shows
2) background checks for private transfer
3) Assault weapons

I doubt they will get the assault weapons ban but I hope they get the other two cause if they do, it will make a hell of a lot of difference.

one argument to use on Assault weapons is .. if you want one go get a class III FFL license otherwise no... if a person can pass that test I have no problem with them at all .. then they can get a machine gun if they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 11:24 AM

http://www.wikihow.com/Get-a-Class-3-Firearms-License

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 07:36 PM

" "I went to the movies with my pistol in my pocket the whole time I was praying that somebody would try to pull a Batman!""

Ah well! One less homicidal lunatic to worry about.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 07:51 PM

Yeah, Don... This is what scares me... You have a lot of folks out there lookin' for a vigilante/stand-your-ground situation so they can luck into being "da' guy" who saves the minstrel in distress and shoots the bad guy and gets an award from the Fraternal Order of Something-or another....

It doesn't work that way...

What you have, instead, is a guy who get's pissed off because he thinks that someone cut him off in traffic and rather than be the hero he becomes yet another whacked out murderer...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 08:21 PM

They may.. or they may not... limit AR-15 types....

But by the time they do, there will be 50,000 more sold,,,,

Horses & barn doors come to mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 11:54 PM

I have reached the conclusion that there IS an answer. Give guns to everyone. I mean everyone! Infants, youngsters, teenagers, young adults, adults, middle-aged people and oldsters. Hell, even folks my age and beyond. BUT, make it real difficult to get bullets. Load yer own or that's it for you. Ten years from now the problem will disappear. Bullets will become collectors' items. Then, will it be worth it to shoot Aunt Agnes? Or, what will this do to my stock portfolio?

I am not going to say, "I rest my case" or "No more need be said" or anything that arrogant. Youse bes smart folks. Figure it out. No need to turn that over to the NRA or the librauuls. Jus' DO it.

Billy Bob (aka William Robert).

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 11:58 PM

That guest was me. Fawkin' mem'ry.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 09:01 AM

""What you have, instead, is a guy who get's pissed off because he thinks that someone cut him off in traffic and rather than be the hero he becomes yet another whacked out murderer...""

Or worse still, he wastes a pipe smoker because he thought the guy had pulled a gun.

Somebody did the world a favour! The only tragedy is that he too did it with a gun.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 10:36 AM

"I have reached the conclusion that there IS an answer. Give guns to everyone"

Here's a sensible one - take the fucking stupid guns AWAY from everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 10:48 AM

"They bicker on the rifle range
Blame takes aim
Last chance
Last chance lost"
... exerpt from Joni Mitchell's "Last Chance Lost"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 04:32 PM

Submitted for your consideration--on this past, Thursday, in Taft, California, a teacher at Taft Union High School persuaded an armed student who had already shot one person to surrender his weapon and himself. This as a response to those who feel that armed teachers are the only viable solution.

Teacher talks shooter into giving up

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 04:57 PM

Ironically the school had an armed guard.

But he couldn't make it to work that day because of snow.

And, NRA, did I mention there were two armed guards on duty at Columbine and nineteen at Virginia Tech? (According to CNN.)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 05:41 PM

Here's another aspect that hasn't been discussed...

Noise pollution...

Just today we were serenaded for 4 hours with a bunch of jerks less that 200 yards from where we were trying to do some garden work with their AR-15s... Yup, them boys had a real good time... Shot up hundreds and hundreds of rounds... Ruined what was going to be a real nice quiet day...

Finally around noon, the P-Vine called the cops and they went over and talked with these guys... The cops called us and said that were shooting safely and there was nothing they could do but I guess that these folks either ran out of bullets or the sight of the cops was enough to spook them because that ended the shooting...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 06:25 PM

What school are you talking about, Lighter? Surely not Taft Union High School. It's out in the desert, in S California. It barely even rains there.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 07:52 PM

Maybe there's some meaning of "snowed in" we don't know about:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/10/taft-high-school-armed-guard_n_2450710.html

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 08:15 PM

"And, NRA, did I mention there were two armed guards on duty at Columbine and nineteen at Virginia Tech? (According to CNN.)"

I understood that the guards at Virginia Tech had guns available but they were always locked up.

A supervison had to be called, drive to the school, open the locker, and have each guard sign for a weapon. Obviously, it was over by then.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 08:26 PM

These young people who are carrying out these wacko events are better skilled in shootouts because of a life time of playing video games than the average university cop...

As I have pointed out before, these people know of the others... These events are the like their grand finales and they want to be remembered as "da man" who really pulled off the biggie... That why many are better prepared than the one before them... This, to these wackos, is a game...

Now, enter retired cop or rent-a-cop and guess what??? It's like moving up notch in the video game... This is going to backfire and armed guards are going to be routinely killed to go along with the "event" and "extra credit" awarded in wacko world...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:19 PM

The sheriff has got a sense of humor, Lighter. The last snow fall in that area was in 1949. I looked it up.

As per Virginia Tech, PDQ, the shooter shot two people in a dorm room, two and a half hours before he did the other shootings, and campus police and college administrators were aware of it, but didn't issue any warnings, cancel classes, put the campus in lockdown, or ask for any outside assistance.

Maybe one of the resident know-it-alls can tell me why, because I just don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 09:07 AM

A press briefing is a poor time to exhibit that kind of humor. Was there a guard or wasn't there?

Not that it much matters, because crazed killers don't care about guards. Most of them expect to die anyway, and, as Bobert says, they're at least as likely to get the drop on the guard as the other way round, because the nut is already loaded and locked.

You're unlikely to deter a lunatic with a high-power weapon. Given enough cases, sure, a guard might get the guy before he can kill anybody, or as many as he wants. But in other cases the guard will be killed too (unless he's on duty with an automatic at the ready, just waiting for somebody to look suspicious). And in some cases the guard will kill innocent bystanders because gunfights are chaos. Unlike in the movies.

Frankly, I think that a teacher with a concealed-carry permit would be marginally more effective than an armed guard, because at least he (or she) wouldn't announce his presence with a uniform.

But really: do we want people packing guns in schools and churches on the 1 in 10,000 chance that a crazed killer is going to show up? Guns that could be taken away from them by a crazed student? (Which might be more likely than the arrival of a calculating, outside killer. Who knows?)

We could probably save more lives nationally with 10,000 more traffic cops. Drunk drivers are a lot more easily halted or deterred.

As for guns being locked up, the alternative is not to have them locked up. Like Adam Lanza's mom, allegedly.

It's fascinating that the NRA's only remedy (guards, cops, and armed teachers) is also the only one that would bring in 100,000 more gun sales. Closing the gun-show loophole on background checks wouldn't, and the NRA - official lobby of the firearms industry - is agin it.

Coincidence, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 02:23 PM

I've seen everything now. A friend posted on facebook a story about the battle at Wounded Knee. And that it illustrates that we should never give up our second amendment rights. That "Wounded Knee was among the first federally backed gun confiscation attempts in United States history. It ended in the senseless murder of 297 people."

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 10:01 PM

More on the background behind the 2nd Amendment.

As I noted earlier, the 2nd Amendment did not spring out of a vacuum. Not only was the militia ("well-regulated militia") supposed to substitute for a standing army, but this was obvious to all interested parties at the time.

Not only was there a fear that a standing army might produce a general who wanted to make himself dictator, but there had in fact already been an instance in which the standing army at the end of the Revolution did threaten to bend Congress to its will.   At Newburgh officers of the Continental Army threatened to mutiny--many had not been paid for years and the army was to be disbanded, without, they thought, any reliable provision for them--or the enlisted ranks, who if anything were even worse off.   "The soldiers were so famished that when local vendors peddled produce at their huts, they often plundered" them.   (Washington, by Ron Chernow, p 431.)    "Many doubted they would receive years of back pay owed to them or that Congress would redeem its 1780 pledge to provide veterans with half pay for life". Congress did in the end grant the officers payment equivalent to 5 years of full pay.    (My question here would be if this pay was in hard currency or Continentals.)

At any rate, as usual in such cases, the 2nd Amendment was based on earlier provisions by the states. In Massachusetts, not only could every man be armed but in fact they "had to be to protect the colony from invasion; local communities paid for guns for men too poor to purchase them.    Virginia also mandated ownership of firearms."    Triumvirate, by Bruce Chadwick p. 58 (book on the passage of the Constitution).

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 10:30 PM

Continued.

Hamilton, Madison and Jay, the 3 main figures behind the passage of the Constitution, felt a Bill of Rights was not necessary.    Their stubbornness on this almost defeated passage.   Madison, for instance stated that in Federalist #46 he had written that any oppressive federal army would be opposed by a "militia amounting to near half a million citizens with arms in their hands."    His assertion did not mollify opponents--they, led by Jefferson, held that the "strong state military units would serve as a forceful deterrent against any desire of a president or Congress to subjugate the people with a large national army." (Chadwick p. 59.)

Here the obvious origin of the 2nd Amendment becomes clear:   Virginia, for instance, in its bill of rights, stated that "the people have the right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural defense of a free state."

It is thus blazingly clear to anyone who does even a modicum of research that the militia was both to substitute for a standing army and provide defense against an overreaching federal government. That is the reason for the 2nd Amendment. It is not just the right to "keep and bear arms" but the obligation to be part of the "well-regulated" militia which was to provide defense against enemies from without and within. It was emphatically not the" every man his own militia" attitude which the NRA and other pro-gun-rights groups now endorse.

It is also clear that history was not kind to the idea that a militia could substitute for a standing army--the idea was a disaster from the start.

And it seems we really have done OK with a standing army for quite a while--without any general seeking to make himself dictator.

So the 2nd Amendment has long since lost any value it might have had.

It's not really surprising that the intellectual giants who grace Mudcat and defend the 2nd Amendment are clueless--or too lazy to read-- about the reasons for the 2nd Amendment.    Though it is somewhat baffling that 5 of 9 Supreme Court justices were recently so pig-ignorant about its background.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 09:09 AM

Heard the end of piece this morning on NPR about Congress stepping in and ending a study that the CDC was conducting on the number of folks shot by guns where there was a gun in the house verses homes where there wasn't a gun in the house... Apparently the NRA got that pushed thru Congress???

Hmmmmmm???

What are we trying ti hide here???

And why???

Never mind... I already know the answers...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 09:41 AM

Maybe the CDC has been shut up, but these folks haven't.

Be patient: it takes two seconds to load (the link that is).

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 06:32 PM

There is a solution. Retrain the mindset for violence in the U.S. by not glorifying gun violence in movies, video games, T.V., and removing some of those military statues that are emblematic of America's "values".

Educate children to non-violent settling of disputes, bring home the soldiers and the
contractors from the Mid East, stop the drones, show alternative ways of dealing with disagreements on a political, national, and international level and do what Dennis Kucinich has suggested for years, let there be a Department of Peace in the White House cabinet.

Of course there are things that can be done. We must defeat the LaPierre's of the world through encouraging compassion, education and alternative methods to warfare.

Call out the gun lobbyists that bombard either Party.

The media must show more of the horror of these shootings.

Accept that gun violence is an American disease as was demonstrated by the Center For Disease Control in Atlanta.

Stop associating the gun with an extension of the penis. Gun ownership is not sexy.

Stop rationalizing on behalf of gun ownership. Accept the fact that gun owners are part of the problem by not supporting background checks, licensing, training, and and buying semi-automatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 06:40 PM

Thanks for the link, brucie...

This information was trying to make it in to the national conversation back in the 90s but has been squashed by the NRA...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:22 PM

...from GUEST,999 link:

"... gun accidents are most likely to occur in homes with guns"

Profound, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:26 PM

Too profound for for the NRA apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:39 PM

Interesting that a private organization can tell congress what to do. Dontcha all think you should be just a bit concerned?

For your viewing entertainment.

THAT is why homes shouldn't have guns. There was an adult in the room with the kid.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:13 PM

9.... homes shouldn't have guns? I never thought I would read a post like that from you. I am gobsmacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:21 PM

Well, between homes not having guns and every house having one I'd go with no guns... But that really isn't the issue here...

What is at issue is what kinds of guns, are they locked, does the owner have any skills with his gun, the number of bullets it can fire without having to reload and who the heck are you??? You a nutball who has beat up yer wife??? A convicted murderer??? A wacko???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 12:07 AM

The kid in that link was in a room with an adult. Someone in that house owned the pistol that was supposed to be stored safely. As we can see, Plan A didn't work. Personally, I do not give a shit who keeps what in their house. You want to keep guns around, go ahead. But remember that while you have that 'right' so does your neighbour, and maybe the dumb fuck living next door is going to teach his kid all he knows about firearms, just as we saw in the video. Let's hope your child isn't over playing with the Lone Ranger's child. Pistol like that could sure mess up the orthodontist's work.

Gnu, I know how to use firearms safely. I still don't want them around the house. That's it, that's all.

And Bobert, what we all are writing is what this thread is about. You think the thread should focus on assault rifles, fine by me. But most people are shit with pistols, and those people concern me just as much. In fact, if some idiot shoots me by accident he'd best shoot me real good because the minute I get better he'll require a proctologist to retrieve his firearm: pistol, assault rifle or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 05:27 AM

""For your viewing entertainment.

THAT is why homes shouldn't have guns. There was an adult in the room with the kid.""

The mindset of Joe public is beautifully illustrated by the first post in the comment section under that clip.

""Obviously fake""

That epitomises the level of intelligence applied to assessing evidence about the dangers of guns in the US.

Bottom line:- They kill many times more innocent citizens than criminals. One reason that Americans still love them is that most of those who wouldn't are dead.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 06:15 AM

CNN reports that the firearms industry is...get ready...the only industry in America *explicitly protected by law from being sued for negligence.*

According to the chief of the NRA, the law was passed (I wish I knew just when) "merely to protect against frivolous lawsuits."

If you sue your doctor, or your municipality, a judge decides whether the suit has enough substance to go to trial; if he decides it's frivolous (i.e., baseless), he throws the suit out.

In the case of an arms manufacturer, no suit will even go to a judge.

In the words of Mr. Spock, "Fascinating."

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 08:47 AM

Nah, brucie... I'm not talking about just assault rifles... If you re-read my last post I didn't mention them... The murder weapon of choice is the pistol and 9 mm Glocks can kill a lot of folks real fast...

"Mama said the pistol was the devil's right hand..."... Steve Earle

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 09:51 AM

Sorry, Bobert. I misread/misunderstood you.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:46 AM

No problem...

What I would like would be for all handguns to have to not only be registered but the owners have to produce a certificate that shows that that owner is proficient in using the handgun they own... This is where the NRA can be helpful if they want to...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:49 AM

If you liked the "boy with a gun" YouTube, above, you will really enjoy this.Gun Accident Compilation

This is especially important to watch if you are from the UK, because it will help you to stop thinking about the gun, and start thinking about the person behind it. It will also help you to understand the American sense of humor. Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:57 AM

Keriste: the blind leading the blind. Check the video at about 2:27.

I don't understand: what happened to 'tightly snug the rifle into your shoulder'?

Yeah, I want people like these living next door with guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 11:25 AM

If you want a clear, eloquent view on what it means to lose a child and opinions on what should be done, watch Rachael Maddow's interview (3 segments on right hand column) with the parents of one of the kids who died at Sandy Hook. They are sane, careful and honest.... and they plead with everyone not to stop talking about the issue.

Making reasonable decisions will not be easy in a polarized country, but with all the recent events, we MUST NOT let the debate trail off into nothingness---like the NRA would prefer.

Also... the Current TV channel, which is living on borrowed time after being sold to Al-Jazera, has had several interviews(on The Young Turks show) with Alex Jones, a radio host who is about twice as vehement as Wayne LaPierre. Jones specifically asserts that guns are necessary to defend against tyrannical government, and expounds on several conspiracy theories... (expounds is the gentle word... Jones raves and threatens)

Google Alex Jones and be astounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 11:28 AM

Well.. it seems you can still watch the interview with Jones scroll down


900