BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:30 PM

Bob R,,, if you read my first post, 5 days but 480+ posts ago, *I* noted the story from China.

"Mold those young minds, and MAYBE..." etc...

Sure... I'm all in favor of remolded minds... as soon as you... or someone... figgers out how to DO that molding of minds away from possible murderous violence when they can't even make a dent in school bullying.

You have 10s of millions of young minds who need molding... and millions of adults to do it, most of whom were not well 'molded' themselves... or at least have no specific training in the relevant psychology. How many generations will it take to remake the culture of an entire country? Nice idea... but how about taking away the worst of their dangerous toys until we get them 'molded'?

Sorry, Bob, but yours is about the 27th suggestion of that type I have seen in the last 5 days... all very general and heartfelt with NO plan of how to begin OR proceed.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:06 PM

Like you, Bob, I have a history with martial arts... Okinawan karate which involves various knives, bo's, etc...

What we have now are a lot of folks who have no skills in much of anything who can kill one shit load of people...

I a fight??? Yeah, I am very concerned with a skilled guy with a knife... Things can go badly very fast...

We don't have time to fix an entire nation of wackos with no real skills in life, arms, martial arts or anything else...

So we have to take some short-cuts for now and work on the larger picture later... We can't afford to allow unskilled whackos to hold us hostage while we rebuild and entire society...

Rethink, Bob...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:52 PM

Bill Bill Biil....That kid might not have been able to...with a knife...http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-school.html

I am a knife collector. And have been a Martial Arts practitioner for over 57 years. Started when I was ten...Ju-Jitsu...then went on from there...Balisong, etc.

My High School English teacher was a Knife Instructor for the U.S. Army. Looked like he belonged in an accounting office, then there was the other side...

God help us if a trained individual goes wacky, or feels now's the time for payback for whatever injustice he thinks might have been done him...trust me...

It's good that you are searching for solutions, finding some consolation, trying to understand.

What is needed is a more DIRECTED relationship between parent and teacher Hey, Why is Johnny ALONE all the time? No Prom, No dates...You may find that Mommy & Daddy really should not have been, being screwed up all by themselves, or there in name only...and let the kid do what he feels like...

What to do? Observe, then act by having the authorities "have a little talk" with him, nothing heavy. Just Hey Johnny...come here for a bit.

You will not stop guns. The "nutball control" is more in the form of prevention. Mold those young minds, and MAYBE those young minds will develop into responsible adults who say to themselves, "I don't need a gun..."

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:07 PM

Yeah, the idea has been around a few years... I think Mark Germino even talks about it in one of his songs...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:58 PM

"Elliot Spitzer, remember him... He has brought up a couple other ideas... First, control the bullets... Think about it..." ~ B-pert


Actually, that was the late Pat Paulsen

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:27 PM

First of all, Greg, I don't want to ruin your holiday season but if you were to sit down with bb and have a discussion with him about anything but his politics you'd find him intelligent and very cordial... I have and I personally like the guy...

Elliot Spitzer, remember him... He has brought up a couple other ideas... First, control the bullets... Think about it...

Secondly, boycott the parent companies that own the smaller ones that build and push WMD on the American public... Think about it, Part B...

Thirdly, yeah, what Bill D says... Each of us have been in the pits on these threads over the years and we agree on just about everything...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM

How can there be any grounds for someone to claim that a requirement to report a theft of anything at all, let alone a gun, can possibly infringe their rights or harm them in any way?

Take a look at the news article TIA linked to at 4:06 PM. It sounds like the NRA simply doesn't want local governments, Philadelphia in this case, making any firearms related laws. Pennsylvania law gives the right to regulate firearms to the state, not to counties or municipalities. Even though the law seems innocuous, even by gun-nut standards, the NRA doesn't want cities poking their noses into gun issues at all. The NRA doesn't own nearly as many politicians on the Philadelphia city council as it does at the state legislature in Harrisburg.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM

These people who are buying automatic weapons in anticipation of new gun laws, how will they act if congress passes a law making the purchase and possession of them illegal? Seems like a poor investment to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Elmore
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:08 PM

No ak-47's for teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:44 PM

Yes Bill, read this article I posted yesterday:http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=148617&messages=474&page=2&desc=yes#3453868

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:30 PM

"...firearms enthusiasts are stocking up on assault rifles in anticipation of tighter gun control measures."

Why am I
not surprised

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM

""Many here are making demands for new laws that are ALREADY in place. If they have not stopped gun crimes, why do you think making more laws saying the same thing will do any good????""

Because Bruce, some of us have been paying attention and know that different states act in different ways, some of them not having the laws you mention.

So, the need is for laws you don't have now. Federal laws overriding states' laws in the interests of public safety nationwide.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM

strange thing is that bb is an intelligent person

Well, I'll defer to you Bobert and believe what you have to say .... but thousands wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM

How can there be any grounds for someone to claim that a requirement to report a theft of anything at all, let alone a gun, can possibly infringe their rights or harm them in any way?   What kind of nutty legal system is it. In which any such claim isn't laughed out of court, or penalised as an attempt to waste the court's time?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:27 PM

You all know how *I* have argued-- not just on this thread, but for years-- about the various gun laws and the NRA; but now it is important to note how many people with credentials are saying very similar things to what 'ol Bill D is spouting.
Lawyers, legislators, news reporters, ...even some gun owners.. are agreeing that we cannot keep on like this. It is sad that it took such a horrible incident to shake the cobwebs out of some heads. If that boy had 'simply' shot his mother... or had gunned down a couple of policemen on a corner, it would probably just get 2-3 days superficial mention and become just another incident in the list....
   ...but some folks realize that TODAY there may be dozens of other disturbed kids...or even adults.. out there who are seeing this news and tumbling 'odd' thoughts over in their heads about how to make a splash in their own confused lives.

I 'live' my online life 90% in Mudcat, and there are many people here with thoughtful approaches to issues... on all sides of issues. Max says Mudcat will be around for a long time, and my ideas... no matter on serious or frivolous topics... will be here for Google to find... so I WILL reply to what I consider important topics-- especially when I think they need to offset poor reasoning or bad data.....

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:52 PM

The starnge thing is that bb is an intelligent person in person but get him in front of a computer and he questions not one source other than liberal or moderate ones... The further right the source the greater the chances are that he'll accept it as 100% true...

But never mind bb... He ain't a bad guy... Just has some wiring problems...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:38 PM

So, Beardie Brucie - you must enjoy posting spurious & irrelevent nonsense for the entertainment value alone?

'Cept it isn't entertaining- ... it's just BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:34 PM

Yes, brucie... My bad... It was 12,000 to 11...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:06 PM

But when the SWAT team shows up, all you really have to do is say "oops, it was stolen".

http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/local/harrisburg/34126-16kcguns

click

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From:GUEST,TIA - PM
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM

My city is being sued by the NRA because they passed a law saying that if your gun is stolen, you must report that theft to the police.
NRA objects to that?!?!? Wouldn't that do some little bit to hinder trafficking in illegal guns.

Hell, if one of my guns were stolen, reporting it to the police would be the FIRST thing I'd do. "Oops! I forgot to report it was stolen!" doesn't carry much weight when someone uses it in an armed robbery three months down the road and the SWAT team arrives in your front yard.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM

I fully believe that no one law will solve the problem.
Having said that, I'd maintain that Any law or combination of laws
can significantly reduce the seriousness of the problem. Which would be a good thing.

Re: "Guns don't kill people..." I wonder how many home runs Babe Ruth would have hit if he didn't have access to a bat.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

"11 murders in Japan in 2008 compared to 20,000 in the US"

12,000 in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM

" Do they involve checking on whether the purchaser and everyone in their household is completely trustworthy? Do they involve checking that their are adequate storage facilities where the weapons and amo will be kept locked up? "

They should...and if I were in Congress, I'd vote for it... but 1st step is checking the primary purchaser well. If we can even get that, it will be better than what exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:35 PM

You'd be better off asking the NRA, McG... They hate 'um... That's why when they found out that the existing database was not up to the task in performing the backgound check in a timely manner and many in Congress were all for fixin' it in the early 2000s they fought keeping the system just the way it is...

But you are correct... It in itself is not the end-all-be-all but just one of the pieces...

BTW, there were 11 murders in Japan in 2008 compared to 20,000 in the US...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM

What do 'backup checks' amount to anyway? Do they involve checking on whether the purchaser and everyone in their household is completely trustworthy? Do they involve checking that their are adequate storage facilities where the weapons and amo will be kept locked up?   Or are they just does this guy have a criminal record and have they ever been sectioned?

A right to bear arms, however interpreted, is not the same as a right to sell arms or buy them without the most stringent requirements seen as appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 01:14 PM

"... why do you think making more laws saying the same thing will do any good?

*I* do not. Laws saying something a bit different are required....such as.."NO sales at gun shows unless that show has a link to a National database of guns, owners and already completed background checks... and this linkin place and working, and monitored by police or other official not connected to the show...and no sales of military type weapons AT ALL! Including AR-15s, no matter what you want to CALL them."

See? There's a law we...at least more of us... can LIVE with.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM

Law enforcement has consistently been supportive of gun control... And why not??? They pull a guy over an have no idea what he's packin' or
if they are badly outmatched...

BTW, more cops were gunned down in the last 10 years than in the 50 years before that...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM

Really good question (from Eric Boehlert); "If there was a toy that killed 20 children in 1 day, there'd be no debate about banning it- why is there any hesitation over assault rifles?"

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM

My city is being sued by the NRA because they passed a law saying that if your gun is stolen, you must report that theft to the police.
NRA objects to that?!?!? Wouldn't that do some little bit to hinder trafficking in illegal guns.

The arguments that we already have laws on the books is thoroughly bogus. If the laws were adequate, we wouldn't have a mass shooting every other month would we?

Oh wait, your going to blame it on law enforcement aren't you...("we just need to enforce the laws blah blah blah).

How does law enforcement feel about the adequcy of current laws? Anyone...?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:18 AM

Maybe we should pass a law making it illegal to steal guns....

Or better yet, make it illegal to shoot PEOPLE.

THAT will solve the problem: Once the law is made, there will be no more shootings.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:57 AM

There's that, Charmion.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:52 AM

All it takes to "launder" a legal, documented gun into an illegal, undocumented gun is one theft or robbery, plus transportation to another jurisdiction.

No soap required.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

John, John, John . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:42 AM

Laundered guns 9? I guess that's what to do, if you want a clean shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM

The real question then is where do illegal guns come from. If they were ever legal to begin with how come the paper trail is so hard to determine? At some point they are laundered in order to become black market weapons, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM

"As for online sales there is no way these can ever ensure an adequate level of proof.
"


The online sales can only be FROM an FFL TO an FFL- the FFL puts his license on the line when he fils out the paperwork on the end customer. The FFL is responsible for the checks, and many states require confirmation by the police as well. Records are kept, and subject to government inspection at any time.


Many here are making demands for new laws that are ALREADY in place. If they have not stopped gun crimes, why do you think making more laws saying the same thing will do any good????

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:01 AM

It's called "background checks"... Problem is that the data base is so out-dated that it is by in large ineffectual...

Then thrown in the gun show loophole and why even have the laws on the books...

BTW, the Republican Party has blocked every effort by Obama to allow the appointment of a head of ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms)... But that's just a sidebar here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:52 AM

How can a bloke selling guns over the counter have any way of knowing that someone buying the gun is 'of sound mental state'.

The presumption ought to be that they are not unless there is solid proof that they are. And that is not an easy thing to prove for any of us. Just the fact they might never have been sectioned is nowhere near good enough. You'd need references from guaranteed sources at the very least.

As for online sales there is no way these can ever ensure an adequate level of proof.

It should be the same level of proof as there would be to allow someone to adopt a child.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:47 AM

Sorry, McG, but I don't have a clue who wrongman, songwronger or whom ever is... Lotta folks who have the most right winged views to spew hide behind stupid names so they don't have to stand behind their posting...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:12 AM

BillD,

"These dealers AT gun shows, and those who sell online.... where do THEY get their stocks of weapons? I assume THEY have to licensed and have valid permits to sell the guns TO people at shows. How are those permits allocated and monitored?"

1. The FFL dealers at gun shows are required to comply with the same laws, checks, and paperwork that they have at their place of business.

2. Selling ONLINE requires delivery t, and handling by a FFL who is required to comply with the same laws, checks, and paperwork that they have at their place of business.


The " gun show exemption is ONLY for PRIVATE sales between individuals, who must comply with the legal requirements of their state- i.e., they are supposed to determine that the person is a resident of the same state, not a felon, of sound mental state, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:11 AM

'Wrongman' isn't the name of the poster in question Bobert. I know we all tend to use altered names when we respond to posts, but in a long and busy thread like this it's not a bad idea to use the actual name they posted under so as to know what is under discussion.

As for Gandhi a much more appropriate comment for the present situation might be when, in response to a question as to what he thought of Modern Civilisation he replied that 'It would be a very good idea'

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:08 AM

PeeDee- citing Andrew K. Dart's blog as a source? He's even more of a right-wing lunatic, liar and fanatic than you usually resort to.

Give us all a rest from the bullshit, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:53 AM

Bill D..whwere do you keep it? In my pocket or on my night stand.

I raised three girls and not one of them ever touched my shot gun or rifle. I no longer have either weapon since I gave up hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:41 AM

Yeah, Bill... Let's keep in perspective that, as much as we don't like to admit it, is that the Supreme Court are politicians... Look at Scalia... He thinks he's a rock star... Goes around speaking to right winged groups sounding just like he's running for some office...

But never mind that...

The NRA narrative is shaping up to be blaming the ineffective mental health workers that are paid by your taxes!!! Horrors!!! Yup, whenever boxed in blame a government worker... Watch the way they fold this out...

I'm glad we are having that discussion as well but it's only a small part of the story but the NRA hopes it can create enough subterfuge to survive this latest push to slow down the proliferation of very dangerous weapons...

As for my knowledge of Gandhi and non-violence, Wrongman... I'd put my life's experiences up against yours in an over-all understanding of the non-violent movement and can guarantee you that Gandhi would have rephrased his thoughts if he knew that right winged whackos would one day use them against the spirit of his true beliefs...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:41 AM

'When I was on the job I got to fire a Thompson sub machine gun. I was not impressed.'

and the lady in question Kendall...? I bet it made an impression!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:37 AM

Moncton, NB Times&Transcipt today...

Positions shifting on gun control


Some U.S. Republicans say gun control should be debated, along with mental health issues

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON - Some Republicans now say they're willing to discuss the politically treacherous issue of gun control, along with mental health issues and violent video games, while President Barack Obama said he supports efforts in Congress to reinstate an assault weapons ban in the wake of last week's Connecticut school shooting.

Republicans in the House of Representatives discussed the gun issue at their regular closed-door meeting yesterday, and at least some were willing to consider gun control as part of a solution to the kind of violence that killed 26 people, including 20 children six and seven years old.

The massacre, one of the worst mass shootings in U.S. history, has rattled the usual national dialogue on guns in America, where public opinion had shifted against tougher gun control in recent years and the gun lobby is a powerful political force.

Obama has called for 'meaningful action' and met with Cabinet members Monday on how to respond. He has long supported reinstating the assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004, but was quiet on the issue during his first term. Obama has said he believes the Constitution's Second Amendment guarantees an individual the right to bear arms.

White House spokesman Jay Carney said yesterday that Obama is 'actively supportive' of reinstating an assault weapons ban and would also support legislation to close the gun show 'loophole,' which allows people to buy guns from private dealers without background checks.

The president was not expected to take any formal action on guns before the end of the year, given the all-consuming efforts to resolve tax and deficit-reduction talks and nominate new Cabinet secretaries.

The most powerful supporter of gun owners, the National Rifle Association, broke its silence yesterday, four days after the school shoot­ing. After a self-imposed media blackout that left many wondering how it would respond to the killings, it said in a statement that its members were 'shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders.' The group also said it wanted to give families time to mourn before making its first public statements. The organization pledged 'to help to make sure this never happens again' and has scheduled a news conference for Friday.

As shares in publicly traded gun manufacturers were dropping for a third straight day yesterday, the largest firear ms maker in the United States said it is being put up for sale by its owner, which called last week's school shooting a 'watershed event' in the American debate over gun control.

Freedom Group International makes Bushmaster rifles, the weapons thought to have been used in Friday's killings.

The New York-based private equity group Cerberus Capital Management - which invests money on behalf of public employees like teachers, among other clients said it will sell its controlling stake in the company, while investors fled other firear ms makers.

After yesterday's meeting of Republicans, Congressman Jack Kingston said that nothing should be done immediately.

'Put guns on the table, also put video games on the table, put mental health on the table,' he said. 'There is a time for mourning and a time to sort it out.' Formerly pro-gun Democratic Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said 'a thoughtful debate about how to change laws' is coming soon. Republican Sen. Charles Grassley said Monday that the debate must include guns and mental health. And NRA member Sen. Joe Manchin, another Democrat, agreed it's time to begin an honest discussion about gun control and said he wasn't afraid of the political consequences.

It's too early to say what could emerge next year in Congress, but the comments are significant. Grassley is senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, which probably would take the first action on any gun control legislation. Reid sets the Senate schedule. And Manchin defied the NRA while the politically powerful pro-gun group has remained silent since Friday's massacre.

At the state level, Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder vetoed legislation that would have allowed concealed weapons in churches, schools and daycare centres. The Republican governor told The Associated Press Monday he was scrutinizing the bill after the massacre in Connecticut. He also drew on his own memories of a fatal shooting in his college dormitory more than three decades ago.

Snyder said in a release yesterday that public venues need clear legal authority to ban firear ms 'if they see fit to do so.' In California, proposed legislation would increase the restrictions on purchasing ammunition by requiring buyers to get a permit, undergo a background check and pay a fee.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Conference of Mayors wrote Obama and Congress calling for 'stronger gun laws, a reversal of the culture of violence in this country, a commission to examine violence in the nation, and more adequate funding for the mental health system.' Specifically, the mayors asked for: A ban on assault weapons and other high-capacity magazines, like those reportedly used in the school shooting.

Strengthening the national background check system for gun purchasers.

Strengthening the penalties for straw purchases of guns, in which legal buyers acquire weapons for other people.

Reid told the Senate, 'In the coming days and weeks, we will engage in a meaningful conversation and thoughtful debate about how to change laws and culture that allow violence to grow.' His comments mark a shift in his approach to the issue.

After a mass shooting in July at a Colorado theatre left 12 people dead, Reid said the Senate's schedule was too busy to have a debate on gun control.

And after 32 people were killed in 2007 at Virginia Tech, Reid cautioned against a 'rush to judgment' about new gun laws.

In 2010, top NRA official Wayne LaPierre called Reid 'a true champion' of gun rights.

Other Republicans said mental health, not guns, was the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:07 AM

How many stories can you find of ANYONE who has, with a quickly accessed weapon, successfully protected their home against actual (not 'imagined') danger? I will bet that there are MORE stories of sad mistakes by nervous homeowners

I remember having a debate in the letters section of the London Evening Standard back in about 1994. It was about the routine arming of UK police. I pointed out that in that year, of 48,000 New York police officers, 43 had been killed or injured with firearms....but 26 of those were by negligent discharges of their own or colleagues' weapons.

Others argued that in the UK, since only a small proportion of police officers were firearms-trained, to a high standard, it was unlikely to be a problem. I believe that was the same week that 3 City of London police officers were wounded when their highly-trained colleague dropped his H&K MP5 onto the canteen table and it went off. I think that in that year, 5 UK police officers were injured by firearms...4 by their own or colleagues' negligent discharges.

This year has been unusual in that 3 UK police officers have been shot dead (half of all those shot dead in the last 15 years) by criminals. But it's also seen 3 officers wounded and 1 killed by their own or colleagues' negligent discharges.

If such a high proportion of firearms injuries to police officers, who are supposed to be trained to a much higher standard than members of the public would be, are the result of negligent discharges, I'd be absolutely astonished if ready access to weapons at home or in public saved even a fraction of the extra lives it *cost* in accidental shootings.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:24 AM

The thing that's getting shot with monotonous regularity on this thread, is the breeze.
Nobody's really listening to anybody else, most are spouting second hand facts, and others have got the use of a non sequitur down to a fine art.
FFS, would someone say something constructive, for a change!
Sorry to the few who are talking sense, but you're outnumbered by eejits, by about 99 to 1

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:58 PM

their ability to tackle problems with cheerfulness and determination'

But not it has seemed when it comes to this subject. Perhaps things might change now. It is always a good idea to be hopeful, whatever the odds.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:55 PM

Just saw an interview with Jeffrey Toobin...senior analyst with CNN about the history of interpreting 2nd amendment.

short version: "The courts had found that the first part, the "militia clause," trumped the second part, the "bear arms" clause. In other words, according to the Supreme Court, and the lower courts as well, the amendment conferred on state militias a right to bear arms—but did not give individuals a right to own or carry a weapon."

Then, in just 2008, the 5-4 divided Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Hellerruled for the 1st time specifically about individuals rights as to guns.

Guess which justices were the 5?

So, as I posted earlier... and in case you paid it no attention... it was a VOTE by a politically biased few conservatives, pressured by many more of the same, which puts us in this awkward place today.