BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 03:52 AM

And 'self-protection' against 'the bad guys' or 'mad-dog killers' isn't a a qualifying need or reason either, it indicates paranoia and should mean automatic disqualification of the applicant from gun ownership on the grounds of mental instability.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 03:15 AM

I don't believe anyone here has suggested a total ban on guns, even the UK-ers. What most on this side of the pond would call for is for gun ownership to be restricted to those who can demonstrate a true need to own a gun - farmers, hunters, target-shooting club members etc., and no automatic, semi-automatic or military-type weapons to be owned by anyone at all. The drivel being touted by some about standing up to a government they distrust should absolutely not be a qualifying 'need or reason', it's just big-mouth bluster, and complete, utter shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM

Welll... I still don't quite get all that because a LOT of peeps on these threads have said "ban all guns" but... whatever.

Ebbie... "what do we do"... you get some GOOD gun laws that deal with ownership and registration BUT you have to do it different in the US that it was done in Canada because GUESS WHAT happened in Canada... we had a GREAT system... cost $2B+ and it's now being trashed because it WASN'T DONE RIGHT. Another Canuck MODEL for the world but we had so many idiot antigun nuts that pushed WAY too far that many Canucks said "I am a Canuck and I won't take that shit." Yanks are even more so. Soooo, ya gotta just "do" good guns laws with common sense.

And, yes, providing health care and feeding the poor and education and... all that pie in the sky stuff (pie? WTF? but THAT is another thread).

But, ya gotta get a grip on GOOD gun laws as a start. Canada has a great model IF someone with a brain in their head and a vote in Parliament had had the balls to say... hmmm... that part is REALLY stupid and I think we, the government, might be in the opposition soon if we ignore common sense and decency. So, now, anti-decency, Stephen Harper, is destroying all our $2B worth of good gun laws because SOME of those laws were BAD gun laws. It drives me NUTS!

Maybe that is why the Canucks that post in these threads seem so pissed off... well... at least ONE that I know of. He keeps saying the same things over and over but it seems nobody, on either side, is listening.

Guns do not kill people. People who won't listen to logic and common sense kill people. They kill people like my buddy and his wife that I posted about in a long ago gun thread(sss). One more time... good gun laws are good. Bad gun laws are bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Janie
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 06:59 PM

Glad to see that some folks have stopped talking "past" each other, and actually started having a discussion.

Finding common ground and building consensus around that common ground is a lot of work. Requires respect for the validity of different points of view and careful reflective listening on the part of all parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 06:54 PM

No matter... Like I said before, I was giving gn-ze the benefit of the doubt 'cause he's my buddy... It really doesn't matter... The point is that the folks here in Mudville who are in favor of sane gun laws aren't advocating such a radical position...

Yo, Eb... Yeah, there are a lot of things we could do to restore civility but that would be an entire different thread... Or several...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 06:50 PM

I for one do not want all guns banned because the minute that happens I will wonder what my government is about to do that I won't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 06:45 PM

It was for Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 06:33 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From:GUEST,999 - PM
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 05:07 PM

Name ONE Canadian poster who has said to ban all guns!
**********************************************************

Was that for me, 9? Or who?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 06:10 PM

There goes the neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 05:47 PM

So Beardie, I suppose you want to do away with the laws against murder and rape as well, since its obvious they don't prevent murder.

And you didn't speak to the point that the current laws don't work because they're badly drafted and have too many loopholes and aren't uniform across the country. But then, I didn't expect you WOULD.

Not when you can resort to bloviation, BS, and changing the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 05:30 PM

OK, back to the bottom line here.

If we in the US are such an aggressive people, how do we go about changing that? I should imagine changing a people's nature and expectations is a slow process. I don't think we have that much time.

Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 05:16 PM

I don't know of any... I said "maybe"... I donno of any but since gn-ze said that folks are saying it I reckon I could give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe someone has said it... Like I said, "I donno"??? I have said that the only two people I can remember saying it were pdq and beardedbruce...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 05:07 PM

Name ONE Canadian poster who has said to ban all guns!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 05:03 PM

Yeah, I've signed a bunch of them petitions... I'm even trying to get anew one going that requires an IQ on the plus side of that of an animal cracker in order to post anything on the inter net... I thought you'd like that one, gn-ze...

As for the 24 hour waiting period to purchase a gun??? It's called a cool-down period... You'd be surprised how many people get pissed off, go the gun store, buy a gun and blow someone away all in one afternoon...

Heck, if the right wing thinks it's okay to have laws that require a pregnant woman to have such a period then why not pissed off people who want to kill their next door neighbor...

Actually, there isn't one radical idea in my list... All pretty much common sense...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 04:57 PM

The major American proponents here in the Mudpit for sane gun control laws have not advocated banning all guns...

Maybe a couple UKers of Canadians might have said that but none of my American allies on the subject...

Of course we do hear it from the righties (beardedbruce & pdq among others) but they are just saying it because they think it makes the folks on my side look to be unreasonable...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 04:56 PM

24 Hour waiting period? If a person owns guns and ammo legally and a permit to aquire and the transfer of ownership must take place trhu a registry the 24 hour thing need not apply.

GOOD gun laws. LOGICAL gun laws. I am blue in the face from shouting this.

Bobert... yer just givin the anti-gun/gun nuts ammo with some of these ideas.

Yo, Bobert... ya sign any a them there petitions yet?

BTW... ANY of youse sign any a them there petitions yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 04:46 PM

Bobert... "no one wants to ban all guns, gn-ze..."

Huh? I have read same on every gun thread. I ain't gonna look it up and quote it... THEMssss... for you. It would take TOOOO long.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 04:42 PM

For the one millionth time, no one wants to ban all guns, gn-ze... That's never been talking point or goal of the folks who want saner gun laws... That is NRA propaganda that they use to try to paint sane people as lunatics...

Personally, I'm sick of reading "ban all guns"... It's bullshit and we don't need to be repeating NRA propaganda...

I mean, there are a lot of very reasonable and sane adults who want to see the following laws enacted:

1. Ban military style assault rifles even though they are sold a semi-automatic...

2. Ban high capacity magazines (clips) that hold over 10 rounds...

3. Close the gun-show loophole...

4. Require anyone who owns a pistol to register it and provide a "certificate of proficiency" to own it...

5. Invest what is needed for background checks to work in a timely manner, which it currently doesn't do...

6. Ban "open carry" of all handguns except for police... I don't want to go into a restaurant and have a dozen cowboy wnatabees come in with pistols strapped to their legs...

7. Create a 24 hour waiting period for the purchase of any gun...

These are reasonable...

Oh yeah... Before the usual cast of characters step up and say that we just can't enforce those laws let me say this: defeatism is not a debating point...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 04:25 PM

I know I shouldn't but I just can't stop myself. Yo USA!!!

Once again. Guns don't kill. People do. Gun laws must address people problems and gun regulation problems with good gun laws.

sIx and 9 know about illegal guns in Canada. So do I. I know how thousands and thousands of illegal wepaons (machine pistols, technically) get into the hands of assholes in the USA. They come from Atlantic Canada. I ain't gonna post about how it is done except to say that NObody can stop it. You canNOT ban these guns unless you change your laws and address YOUR people problems.

Ban all guns? Yer barkin up the wrong tree and yer pissin on my tree. You ain't gettin anywhere with that shit, thank goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 04:16 PM

Bb is confused... He claims that assault rifles are already banned... Then what the heck is this AR15??? A friggin' bb gun??? No, maybe is a slingshot...

This is where we end up... An AR15 with a 100 round clip that can be legally purchased at any gun shop in the country, according to bb, is not an "assault rifle" because it is semi-automatic...

Let's put a bowl of reality on the table... A perfectly legal AR15 can kill 30 people in 20 seconds... If anyone doesn't consider that an assault rifle then they are delusional and just playing games here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 04:02 PM

I agree with you 999 ... and I think that is a good example of 2 different cultures .... back to what I said about the the aggressive culture in the U.S. and the rather non-aggressive culture of Canada.

Here the drug dealers pack a piece (very low keyed about it) for defensive purposes, as opposed to offensive reasons.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 03:46 PM

Some fucking day I'll say something right. I do too, biLL. However, that's got jack shit to do with crap in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 03:37 PM

" I doubt anyone here knows drug dealers who carry guns."

I do ... right here in Saint John

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 03:35 PM

I think it was Be_dubya who mentioned somewhere in this thread about Davie Crocket guns back in the 50's ... interesting, I had one, most of my friends had one ... we gloried in our play time as kids being Davey Crocket killing all the Mexicans, or as John Wayne killing all the Japs ... we watched Bugs Bunny cartoons, the 3 stooges ... many people today consider this a rather violent pass times for kids.

I'm Canadian ... but my contemporaries south of the border were indulging in the same activities as kids ... I'm far from violent, I abhor violence ... many of those American kids grew up to protest the Vietnam war, many dodged the draft.

What I'm trying to get across is ... I question the idea that today's movies, T.V. programs, heavy metal music, games or whatever influences the current gun rampage in the U.S. ... I may be wrong though ... but I do think (and I'll bring back this issue) that the American culture is one of aggressiveness ... it's a win at all cost type of nation, on the playing field, in the corporation, in it's military, in it's global affairs etc. ... that has some crazy effect on people ... as I said previously you have an aggressive culture and you throw weaponry into the mix .. well you can get the picture

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 03:31 PM

"I can go along with this- but are you sure that most here would? what happens when one of their friends is caught with illegal drugs, and a firearm, and gets that mandatory sentence?"

Right now we're just seeing if the turkey will fit in the oven. I doubt anyone here knows drug dealers who carry guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM

And all that with no mention of the Second Amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:52 PM

"BB, part of the problem is TV, video game and movie stuff that has glorified people with semi and automatic weapons."

AGREED. ANY parent allowing their children to play DOOM in any variant should be arrested and the kids taken away from them. I am not sure it should be legal for adults.

" I agree that there are mental health issues that need to be addressed, "

Yet the focus has been ONLY on making it harder to LEGALLY own guns.



"along with laws that are enforced whereby the use of any gun in the commission of a crime is a mandatory 20 year/no parole sentence. If such crime results in death, the sentence is life, no parole, period!"

I can go along with this- but are you sure that most here would? what happens when one of their friends is caught with illegal drugs, and a firearm, and gets that mandatory sentence?



ANd OBVIOUSLY anyone who ignores current laws, such as those against drugs, should AND IS NOT be allowed to own firearms. (see 1968 law prohibiting firearm possession by felons ( more than one year sentence)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:44 PM

Just noticed... Looking at the cities with the highest rate of gun violence I see that ALL have been controlled by Democrats for the last 30-40 years. Seems like and obvious point that if we just get rid of the Democrats, the rates of gun violence will drop. (SARCASM)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:41 PM

BB, part of the problem is TV, video game and movie stuff that has glorified people with semi and automatic weapons. I agree that there are mental health issues that need to be addressed, along with laws that are enforced whereby the use of any gun in the commission of a crime is a mandatory 20 year/no parole sentence. If such crime results in death, the sentence is life, no parole, period!

People who think banning semi autos or assault rifles is a quick fix best think again. It took about 50 years to get gun crazy; it'll take that long to undo it. Saying that laws don't work means you have some bad judges and maybe more than a few bad cops.

I am aware that people would be crazy to relinquish guns they own. But maybe it's time to stop making more.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM

sorry





It is simple to make a one- shot pistol or shotgun, or a pipe bomb, or explosive, or instrument string garrote to kill people. The problem is to TEACH PEOPLE NOT TO KILL EACH OTHER. Yet No one here will even address that, stating that the removal of guns ( even though not possible, as seen by the murder rates in Washington DC ( whens guns were forbidden), NYC ( strictest gun laws, and the place to go to get ANY weapon you want) Chicago ( note the number of gun crimes IN SPITE of some of the harshest gun laws)
) IS THE SOLUTION THAT WILL WORK.

Please note that 9-11 did not involve ANY guns at all. How many died then? Can we outlaw all knives? Broken glass? Flat pieces of metal sharpened on cement? Mixing household chemicals to produce WW 1 chemical weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

23,000 US schools have armed security personel now.

Columbine had them.

Columbine also took place while the "assault weapons" ban was still in place.

Nobody is proposing anything that has proven to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

Ebbie,

Does that address your questions?

I DO NOT CLAIM to have an answer- but I can look at the obvious and know that the means that the Left has tried for many years has made the situation worse ( more gun violence and crimes, with more laws restricting gun ownership and less punishment and personnel responsibility.
Maybe we need to look at the causes, rather than pass "feel-good" laws that do not work and do NOT deal with mental health issues, alienation, ignorance , and lack of "buy-in" to society and civilization.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:08 PM

"What are your ideas on this? If you truly think that taking semi-automatic and assault off the legal market will not make a difference, what do you suggest? "

1. ASSAULT RIFLES HAVER BEEN ILLEGAL SINCE 1934. Has THAT made a difference?

However, take a look at the crime rate in Switzerland. Not bad for a country with FULLY AUTOMATIC military weapons in nearly every home.



2. I can fire all the rounds from my 11 shot (target) revolver on target faster than I can fire a 1911 Colt semi-automatic (7 rounds) downrange ( and only the first shot would hit the target!)

As for taking them off the market, do you know how many are out there? If EVERY legal gun was confiscated, and ONLY police had them, the criminals would be able to get all the guns they would want- by killing police if no other way.

It is simple to make a one- shot pistol or shotgun, or a pipe bomb, or explosive, or instrument string garrote to kill people. The problem is to TEACH PEOPLE NOT TO KILL EACH OTHER. Yet No one here will even address that, stating that the removal of guns ( even though not possible, as seen by the murder rates in Washington DC ( whens guns were forbidden), NYC ( strictest gun laws, and the place to go to get ANY weapon you want) Chicago ( note the number of gun crimes IN SPITE of some of the harshest gun laws)

The places with the strictest gun laws have the MOST gun violence crimes, and the LEAST harsh punishments. Any thoughts about ENFORCING the laws WE HAVE NOW, and making people responsible for their own actions?

It DOES work to disarm law abiding citizens, though. IF that is the intent, so be it- but think back to the South in the 1930s to 1960s- DO YOU WANT TO DISARM everyone NOT IN AUTHORITY?

Are you willing to give up other Constitutional rights as well, when SOMEONE decides you would be safer without them? How about when a conservative is in power, and uses these SAME arguments ( "Even one life saved is worth giving up rights") to outlaw abortion ( where EVERY fetus dies)? What right has the woman to kill that life???




"Do you think LaPierre's suggestion of arming teachers and other authority figures is a good one? Is that the picture you have of education?"

It is a better idea than passing a law that does not work. NOT what I want to see in education: I would rather see responsible gun training in later grades, to promote gun safety, and can see a reason for SOME armed presence in schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 01:47 PM

This is a serious questions for BeardedBruce and pdq and all others who seem at a loss for where to start:

What are your ideas on this? If you truly think that taking semi-automatic and assault off the legal market will not make a difference, what do you suggest?

Do you think LaPierre's suggestion of arming teachers and other authority figures is a good one? Is that the picture you have of education?

Please address this.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 12:26 PM

If people want to discuss the facts, they should read the 1968 gun control act first:

                                                                                          National Firearms Act (1968)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 12:09 PM

What, Greggie, like the federal law making it a crime for felons to possess firearms (1968, I think), or the extreme Federal limitations on automatic weapons since 1934 ?

Since these have been asked for here, it is obvious that the laws do NOT produce the effects that people want.

Perhaps we need to arrest anyone who calls black Democats "dumb ni**ers" since they have demonstrated, by their hate speech, a tendency toward hate crimes that are already on the books.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 12:04 PM

"So, how much of Obama's trillion dollar "stimulus bill" was spent in helping support existing gun laws? Immigration laws? Gang violence abatement laws?"

It was $173.48, but that ain't the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 12:00 PM

No, the point is, Beardie, that they're crap laws currently and they're not uniform across the country.

What we need is realistic, uniform legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 11:53 AM

"The NRA is the enabler of death — paranoid, delusional and as venomous as a scorpion. With the weak-kneed acquiescence of our politicians, the National Rifle Association has turned the Second Amendment of the Constitution into a cruel and deadly hoax."

Bill Moyers

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 11:13 AM

If you are saying we should enforce the laws we already have, then this may be a breakthrough.

So, how much of Obama's trillion dollar "stimulus bill" was spent in helping support existing gun laws? Immigration laws? Gang violence abatement laws?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 11:07 AM

Bruce,

The point is that such a ban would have no real effect.

Fully automatic weapons are already effectively banned.

I can fire 11 rounds from my (target) revolver faster than I can fire 7 rounds from a 1911 Colt semi.

The crimes that everyone is commenting on WERE IN VIOLATION OF THE EXISTING LAWS.

Why does anyone think more laws will make a difference?

ANYONE can make a single-shot gun, and use it to obtain a weapon ( from a leaga source, such as a policeman, or a retired policeman) With more than 320 million known guns in the US, how effective would a ban be? Who would turn in the guns - the criminals who are already in violation of the law for possessing them?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 11:03 AM

Yeah, of course we should pass a law that says "Ex-cons should not own guns" but, ahhhhh, we already have that law... Problem is that it is a joke when the ex-con can walk into a gun show and buy whatever he wants...

This is lunacy on meth...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM

So why do people continue to ignore the elephant in the room? Ban all semi and fully automatic weapons. It doesn't stop the problem, but it sure does slow it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 10:34 AM

And the shooter at Virginia Tech was certified insane and was therefore not allowed to own a gun.

Laws didn't help in that case either.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM

Ebbie,

As an ex-con, the shooter has been prohibited from ever possessing a firearm, as of the 1968 Gun Act.

Sure did a lot of good, right? Let's pass some more laws that do not deal with the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 04:19 PM

Christmas Eve....Time for a song....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwNg4lHFj7I

Peace on Earth....

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 03:52 PM

Ebbie... beyond reality. SO sad.

So... once again... we have all the resources required here at Mudcat to get it going or to find out where to "join up" if it's already going.

Who's in charge?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM

Newtown will bring many more kooks out of the woodwork.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 03:28 PM

I swear, given today's shooting of firefighters, that the nuts out there are vying for the title of 'most shocking and senseless'. And this was no kid but a guy in his 60s.My heart bleeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 01:16 PM

It's not my opinion we're talking about, Kendall - its reality vs. the delusions of the sorry folks you call the "gun nuts".

Their baseless delusions need to be identified as such, and not given the same weight as opinions based on facts.

Time to stop coddling the loonies.

Their fantasies and lies should be identified for what they are - not just "another opinion". Paranoid scizophrenics have their "opinions" too - doesn't mean those opinions are valid or reflect reality.

By the way, Devil can advocate for himself quite nicely without any outside help.

Best, and Merry Christmas,

Greg