BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 08:39 PM

What my big sis said!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 08:41 PM

"Are Americans as a culture more aggressive when it comes to dealing with issues? ."

I think that's clear....meaning that there are SO many sub-cultures and variable ways to cope & settle disputes that when you read news reports, you do see violence and gun incidents everyday. But *I* almost never see any such thing... and almost no one I know even own any guns.
The trouble arises when the sub-cultures (defined in many ways) that DO treat violence as 'normal' get carried away and interact with us quiet folks... as in robberies or drug deals or just settling disputes in public places.

Years ago, there was an TV interview with a kid who'd been arrested. When asked "Why guns when you have a dispute? Why not just fight,,,etc.?"

He replied... (paraphrased): "aww, man... that's a hassle, and you get dirty and they might be bigger. With a gun... *blam*,, and it's over."
He really had no clear answer about the idea that someone might seek revenge..... but that same mentality existed with some mountain folks many years ago (Hatfields & McCoys)

That was a real example of how it's treated sometimes. We (America) still are not too far from a Frontier Mentality. Many people know stories of how their grandfathers (or a couple more generations back) fought Indians or defended against bears. Guns are a direct part of their history...even beyond hunting. ... and it is MY contention that having guns and using guns, even if you have never fired one in anger, becomes a habit and a hobby and a **fascination**.

UNdoing this complex culture will likely take as long as getting into it.... but it will never happen as long as 10s of millions of ALL kinds of guns are allowed & used.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 08:46 PM

Leveller, I am not apathetic, I am a realist. i'm also not a moron.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 09:59 PM

Ebbie .... " Have you ever been present when some Europeans quarrel? I have- and in my opinion, most Americans in their disputes are not nearly as insulting or as LOUD"

Yes I have ... and more than a few times. Certain cultures like to argue, and argue out loud. But it's no more than an spirited argument, and no crudges are held. I have also witnessed aggressive Amerikans overseas ... not quite as loud but they are firmly aggressive and demanding. Ask any waiter, or hotel staff on Amerikan behaviour. I recall my wife and I in a garden store in Portugal. We were trying to arrive at a solution with the proprietor on the best way of getting a certain large garden ornament shipped to our apartment in Lisbon. During this discussion an elderly Portuguese man came up to me. He said "I know you are not British and I know you are not American". I replied "It's obvious that you know I'm not British, but why not American". He replied "because you are mannerly and not pushy"

You may not like it ... but the world does view the U.S. as an aggressive violent nation ... and sadly it is not a false view.

I agree with Bill D.'s post above .... his statement "but it will never happen as long as 10s of millions of ALL kinds of guns are allowed & used" ... even if all those guns are outlawed, there are still a kazillion guns out there and you can bet your booty many, many will not let go of those.

From today's news ... A man killed two men and one woman Friday in central Pennsylvania, then died in a gunfight with state troopers, authorities said. Three officers were injured."

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 10:20 PM

Yes, we have a serious gun problem, bILL, that permeates and eats at the fabric of our American spirit... That ain't all our fault but a systemic failure of our government to control guns because out government is corrupted...

But to blame our corrupted government on it's people is unfair... It's about crooks who have used every trick in the book to corral power and manipulate the public with misinformation...

We "Amerikans" are victims of the theft of a representative government... With just about every issue the government is out of step with the public...

"Amerikans" aren't this wild beast aggressive population... Most are well mannered and people of grace... Don't judge us by the Dick Cheneys of America... Come here and see for yourself...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 10:37 PM

Hey Bobert ... as gruff and negative as I sound I can still say I haven't met an American I didn't like ... but I have witnessed overseas 4 incidents of Amerikan aggressive behaviour. My wife and I do go down to Maine quite often ... Mainers are wonderful people. 25 years ago my wife and I drove down to new Orleans via Highway 61 in a Jeep CJ ... one of the most memorable trips we ever took ... the people we met in Mississippi were extraordinary, super friendly people.

But you can't go blaming everything on the government, remember it's you the American people that put this Amerikan government in the place they are ... it's about time you all got together as a nation and admit you f*&ked up, and admit you do have a negative image world wide and it's time you as a nation changed ... work on getting rid of that Amerikan aggressive violent image ... say no to war, say no to guns, say no to violence ... time to take it to the streets.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 10:54 PM

No, it ain't us, bILL... It is very much our corrupted government... There is no reason why the American Taliban is exerting so much intolerance and redneckism on us... They don't represent us but we all suffer from their ideological extreme polices that keep us oppressed under their right winged agenda of turnin' America into their own little Talibanish experiment... I'm talking the Ayn Rand/ Tea Party people and the rednecks like the NRA who don't represent Americans... These people are 15% of us but 80% of our policies...

You don't think that Americans are frustrated, bILL??? Guess again but lots of Americans get duped over and over and over and vote against their own interests and then go, "Duhhhhhhh???"

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 03:32 AM

A lot of people hold simplistic views of Americans. They have no idea of how many different cultures with their own experiences and expectations each area has. The man in Louisiana, the man in Montana, the man in urban New York and the recent immigrant from Indonesia, say, might even have difficulty in making small talk, no matter how well-meaning. True, each of them holds their family dear but how to go about rearing their children and what goals they might want to instill in them might evoke vastly different ideas. And that is just the tip of their differences.

Multiply those four individuals by more than 300 million people and you might understand better what is involved in making changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Eddie1 without cookie
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 04:43 AM

From NewsThump.com

Friday 21 December 2012
NRA calls for end to childhood obesity by putting McDonalds in every school
The National Rifle Association has insisted that childhood obesity is only an issue because of the dangerous lack of junk food available to American schoolchildren.
In a press conference opposite the White House, NRA spokesperson Wayne LaPierre told gathered reporters that his organisation cared deeply about the children of his country, and would not rest until every single one of them had easy access to a terrible diet.
Speaking in sombre tones, he said, "We are at crisis point, and the only way to stop our children being negatively affected by junk food, is to make sure they are surrounded by even more junk food."

Eddie1
"If you really think about it, no-one would be able to call a child 'fat' if everyone had a BMI well into the 50s."
"Childhood obesity is only an issue because so few children have good access to junk food."
NRA statements
LaPierre went on, "The liberal left will tell you that removing crappy foods from the equation would solve this crisis, but to that I would say 'nay'."
"It is a constitutional and God-given right of every american to have access to burgers the size of your head. We just need to even up the playing field – by filling it completely with fat kids."
"So I call on congress today to ensure that every school in our great nation has easy access to cheap, poorly prepared fatty food with a low nutrient value."
"Then one day soon we can forget about which of our children is 'fat', as they'll all be exactly the same. Like true, free Americ

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 04:57 AM

There you go Ebbie - that's why we all think so many Americans are insane, thanks to seeing and hearing pricks like LaPierre on our TVs. And the scary bit is that millions of Americans appear to believe him and agree with him (a few of them posting the same sort of bollocks on here).

Thanks for that, Eddie, a perfect demonstration of the gun-nuts' perverted thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stu
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 05:29 AM

" Like I said if you decide to carry one of them things you better get cop training thats all I meant"

I really didn't mean to insult anyone olddude, as I say I have the greatest respect for you guys, but I can't agree that carrying weapons is the answer to anything. Guns = dead folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 06:56 AM

LOL Eddie1.

La Pierre wouldn't really subscribe to that though.

It would make the kids easier targets and the arms companies who pay LP's wages would sell less ammo.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 07:44 AM

This discussion has gone round and round with a lot of commenting on the obvious. Let's try something different. A metaphor if you will;

Compare our system of law making to an old bus.
Many of us want to go on a ride. The problem is, the bus has an old engine that is made of worn out parts (Congress) and it is just not up to a long trip. It needs to be replaced with a new engine, yet too many of us tend to hang onto the old parts which no longer serve our needs. We keep sending the same old people to congress and then wonder why they no longer work.They no longer represent us, they represent special interests such as the National Rifle Assassination.
So, what to do? nothing short of a grass roots campaign to clean out congress and get rid of all those worn out parts. That must be done before we can go on that trip we all want to take.Until we do that, we aint going anywhere.

Americans abroad; I have seen and heard them being assholes in other countries, and I wonder if the people in those other countries know that these assholes are not typical Americans. They have money to travel, and they are used to having their own way.
I've also seen Brits acting the same way in Jamaica and St. Martin. Loud, abusive, calling locals "Spooks" etc.

When I travel I try to be an ambassador at large, and as far as I know, I am welcome to return to any place I have been.
One English woman liked me so much she insisted I marry her. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 09:27 AM

I'm told that I have been a bit grumpy lately, and I'm afraid it's true. An old injury is causing me a lot of pain, and prednisone doesn't help either.
So far, I've been able to contain the "Kraken" but he sure does rattle his cage!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:06 AM

From a european standpoint I get the impression that, whilst the NRA may have reached the 21st. century in terms of technology, mentally they're still stuck fast in 1871.............

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:12 AM

I was thinking 1860 myself, the year before the big stupid war...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:28 AM

my dear friend, no offense taken. I wish there were no need for the damn things ever ... I wish for some real laws that work

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:46 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/fact-checking-nra-press-conference-185542748.html

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 12:34 PM

I visited Cabelas tody and there was an NRA rep there signing up new victims of their scare tactics. I was reminded of the story of Jesus cleansing the temple. What fun it would have been to upset the table and tell them what I think of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM

Boycott Cabela's. In fact, while we're at it, let's boycott Academy, Gander Mountain, and any other store that sells military style semi-automatic rifles. Shop only at assult-weapons-free sporting goods outlets.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 12:53 PM

Uh huh!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 01:06 PM

Escuse me for asking, Kendall - buy why didn't you? Would seem to have been the right thing to do, absent upsetting the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 01:20 PM

Because, Greg. Kendall is a law abiding citizen. It's simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: saulgoldie
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 01:34 PM

Well, I know I heard/saw it very recently. But I cannot find it at the moment. However, the speaker had done a careful and thorough research into the history of guns and gun control in the US, and he discovered that the current, um, "discussion" (read: talking points)is not like any that has been before. Even in the "wild wild west" there was considerable gun control. But some cynical people have figured out that the early "reptile brain" is easily manipulated with appeals to fear, whereas the more evolved (evolved!) cortex is much more nuanced.

Anyhoo, try this on for size. Instead of an armed officer in each school, how about a teacher in every gun shoppe?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM

And expressing his opinion and telling them what he thinks of them according to his First Ammendmant rights would make Kendall a non-law abiding citizen how, exactly, Sinsull?

Its even more simple than you think; I seem to remember a quotation incorrectly attributed to Edmund Burke about good men doing nothing.

And Kendall IS, in my estimation, more than a "good man".

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 02:06 PM

""Americans abroad; I have seen and heard them being assholes in other countries, and I wonder if the people in those other countries know that these assholes are not typical Americans.""

We are very aware of that Kendall. For some reason, many of those of a number of countries who travel, are prone to misbehave. Our own included, as you said.

It is because we like and respect the vast majority of USA citizens, that we concern ourselves with what should be none of our business. Nobody enjoys seeing a friend give up the strength of spirit which conquered half a continent.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 02:23 PM

Well not exactly half a continent Don. More like half of a half shared with Mexico. After Canada buys Alaska back from Ebbie our land mass should be enough to dominate the whole garden patch!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 02:28 PM

Amen to everything Don T said.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 02:33 PM

Besides my friends, when a virus comes and turns everyone into zombies. You will thank me , rap and Kendall yup :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 03:34 PM

Meanwhile, from FOX on December 19. Just thought I'd bring a little joy to everyone.

Eleven-Year-Old Utah Boy Brings Gun to School Allegedly to Protect Against Newtown-Style Shooting

Fears of another Newtown-style school shooting allegedly prompted one sixth grader in Utah to bring a gun to school. According to a teacher at West Kearns Elementary School, the boy took a 22-caliber weapon out of his backpack and threatened classmates with it. The 11-year-old told police that his parents gave him the weapon for protection after the tragedy at Sandy Hook.

Other parents at the school say they are furious that they weren't notified as soon as the incident took place. John Klaus, a father, said, "There was no lock down. No one was called. Nothing was done. And then we had to hear it from our kids."

Ben Horsley, the spokesman for the Granite School District, countered, "Once the teacher knew there was a weapon in the classroom, the student was apprehended within 30 to 45 seconds, and immediately brought down to the office. And the police were on site within 5 to 10 minutes."

Police are investigating the boy's parents. In the meantime, he is being held at a juvenile facility.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 03:44 PM

Always bet on stupidity, Bruce. You'll seldom if ever lose your money.

Wayne LaPierre must be proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 04:12 PM

ELEVEN? And he had access to a pistol? His old man must be stunned or on the whatever!

I realize 11 year olds can be very "resourceful" but there is no excuse for the negigence involved. I surely hope charges are laid.

Subject: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 04:15 PM

(clapping hands) I'm rich! I'm rich!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 04:38 PM

BTW... I had access to a 22 semi pistol when I was that age. I used to sneak it out of the house when I was 12 and hunt in the woods 100m away from our house when I was trapping rabbits for food or selling them for 25p each. I preferred to sell them to a guy in his 80s. He got rabbits and partridge to eat and I got $ towards other groceries for our table. I got 30p for each rabbit shot because a shot rabbit tastes better than a snared rabbit. If my old man had caught me with the pistol, I woulda had me arsed kicked BIG TIME and I knew it.

FWIW, I gave up trapping at 15 when I started working 9 hour nightshifts at a gas station. I trapped one rabbit that didn't die as intended and I was so sad and sickened that I pulled every trap and never trapped again. Gave up some good and easy (well, if ya got nothin better to do with yer time, eh?) money. Still took the pistol out... just pretended I was still trapping. Even tho I made a LOT less $, my conscience was better off. When I got my small game license to hunt alone at 16, I never killed another rabbit. I took deer and the old fella got fed in grand style, free of charge.

Poacher? What? Me? Nah... it ain't poachin if it's fer food fer an old fella. And, as far as me keepin some, well, I considered my old man an old fella too... specially when he would cook up deer steaks and pancakes with maple slurpup and yer baked beans fer us... he was a GRAND old man then. >;-)

Simple days. Now, tragic days. Sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 04:58 PM

No parental "negligence" involved, gnu - just criminal stupidity of the type that supports the NRA. (NB: - I'm arecovering, ex-NRA member)

If the story is to be believed, mom & dad GAVE him the pistol & sent him off to school.

Expect more of the same from these types of "we need more guns in our schools" morons.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 06:50 PM

from Der Speigel ...

Gee Dad ... A Winchester!

I especially like the ad for King Air rifles ... "gives a boy an air of manliness, makes him alert, self confident and resolute ... makes him a leader in the business world"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 06:57 PM

Ebbie ... I'm trying to understand American culture ... I'm trying ... even after seeing those ads up in that Der Spiegel article

biLL ... :)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM

The reason I didn't upset the NRA table is because the last guy who did that ended up nailed to a cross.

I didn't go to Cabelas for me, I went for someone who lives 90 miles from that store, and it was not for a gun or ammo.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 07:49 PM

Forget the table, Kendall - as I said in my first post.

My question was why you didn't tell the jackass what you thought of the NRA and his and their nonsense.

Someone needs to stand up against these idiots - and you had a perfect opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 08:04 PM

Does this sound familar to some statemwnts last week?


Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 08:11 PM

One English woman liked me so much she insisted I marry her.

Skipper, was that because you had gotten her into trouble, or because she was trying to keep you out of it?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 08:58 PM

We had a military wedding...well, there were guns there..

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 09:10 PM

Back in the holler we called 'um "shotgun weddin's"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:01 PM

Number 6, I do know what you mean- Americans' approach to a lot of things is often incomprehensible to others. I too grew up with rifles and enjoyed target shooting. I never fired anything but a 22 rifle but my brothers had a 30.06 and a 30.30, and at one time my oldest brother had a pistol. Gun safety was a big deal in our family but I don't remember anyone ever being chided over it; I don't remember anyone ever abusing them.

This country's attitude toward hunting is a fairly pragmatic one. We are aware that 'harvesting' deer, for instance, is a means of keeping the herds healthy. I have no idea how Canada or the rest of the world keep unrestrained herds from starving.

We are also aware that the average person who is anti-hunting anything is not a vegetarian; he or she just objects to anyone seeing an animal being killed for food.

Maybe UKers have been trained to think of deer as belonging only to the 'blue bloods'? I dunno.

A good many blue bloods in your country -as well as ours- have for generations gone on hunting safaris- and many a castle and manor sports wall-mounted heads as evidence. Not just for food either; there isn't much demand for lion or tiger dinners.

I suppose it is not too big a leap to go from hunting for food and sport to accept that guns are also for protection, not only from wild animals but also from the outlaws amongst us.

There is one further impetus that affects Americans - within our grandparents' and great-grandparents' memory this was a wild country. In 1918 my father's family moved to Wisconsin and broke up ground that had never been put to the plow; they routinely and relentlessly eradicated the 'varmints' that threatened their crops and animals.

Mind you, I reali

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:02 PM

Call it what you will, Bobert, et al. When a match is made in heaven, it's a blessing. Sappy? Yeah. True? Most definitely! Still brings a smile to me eye. Maybe this thread has some redeeming thread drift! Made me smile, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:04 PM

Sorry- it got away from me. I want to complete my thought.

I realize the short-sightedness and ignorance of their actions but it was what it was.

My further thought:

How long has it been since there was untouched wilderness in the UK?

(It just occurred to me that I think you are Canadian. Well, never mind.)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:22 PM

While I'd never defend the practice of pitching BB guns at 13-year-olds, I think it's a bit ironic that Der Spiegel, of all the publications in the world, would get so incensed over the subject. After all, during the same decade those ads ran in US magazines, Der Spiegel's homeland was busy enrolling its own 13-year-olds in Hitler Youth Groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:25 PM

sIx is a Canuck, Ebbie. Damn fine Canuck at that. What does that matter along you train of thought?

Excuse me for not understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:37 PM

Heck, when I was a teenager BB gun wars were cool... Yeah, you'd get a stinger now and then but no one ever had their eye shot out like the adults said would happen... I mean, I recall one particular such BB gun battle/war that lasted well over a week until a big rain storm ended it... It was over a big mound of dirt that had been pushed up by bulldozers clearing for e new housing development... No big deal... Everyone got shot at least once... Me??? I think about three or four times... All good fun...

What ain't fun is when people use real guns on one another... That is messed up...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:38 PM

Oh, and...

...600...

B~