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BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: pdq Date: 27 Dec 12 - 12:24 PM Trying to argue facts with a Liberal? Is that what's got ya down, Bunkie? Well, what the World needs is a good 5-cent nickel! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 27 Dec 12 - 12:31 PM LOL. It can't be harder than trying to agree with one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Backwoodsman Date: 27 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM GUEST999 - sincere apologies, I completely misinterpreted your post and took it to be in support of those who believe that they need guns in order to challenge your government. My bad - pax? And arrogant though you may regard me as being, I'm sufficiently gracious as to admit when I'm mistaken and offer an apology, which I'm happy to do here. However, my argument stands, and I apologise to no-one for making it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Dec 12 - 01:01 PM A policeman's opinion: http://www.policeone.com/school-violence/articles/2058168-Active-shooters-in-schools-The-enemy-is-denial "1. Denial — Denial is the enemy and it has no survival value, said Grossman. 2. Deter — Put police officers in schools, because with just one officer assigned to a school, the probability of a mass murder in that school drops to almost zero 3. Detect — We're talking about plain old fashioned police work here. The ultimate achievement for law enforcement is the crime that didn't happen, so giving teachers and administrators regular access to cops is paramount. 4. Delay — Various simple mechanisms can be used by teachers and cops to put time and distance between the killers and the kids. a. Ensure that the school/classroom have just a single point of entry. Simply locking the back door helps create a hard target. b. Conduct your active shooter drills within (and in partnership with) the schools in your city so teachers know how to respond, and know what it looks like when you do your response. 5. Destroy — Police officers and agencies should consider the following: a. Carry off duty. No one would tell a firefighter who has a fire extinguisher in his trunk that he's crazy or paranoid. b. Equip every cop in America with a patrol rifle. One chief of police, upon getting rifles for all his officers once said, "If an active killer strikes in my town, the response time will be measured in feet per second." c. Put smoke grenades in the trunk of every cop car in America. Any infantryman who needs to attack across open terrain or perform a rescue under fire deploys a smoke grenade. A fire extinguisher will do a decent job in some cases, but a smoke grenade is designed to perform the function. d. Have a "go-to-war bag" filled with lots of loaded magazines and supplies for tactical combat casualty care. e. Use helicopters. Somewhere in your county you probably have one or more of the following: medevac, media, private, national guard, coast guard rotors. f. Employ the crew-served, continuous-feed, weapon you already have available to you (a firehouse) by integrating the fire service into your active shooter training. It is virtually impossible for a killer to put well-placed shots on target while also being blasted with water at 300 pounds per square inch. g. Armed citizens can help. Think United 93. Whatever your personal take on gun control, it is all but certain that a killer set on killing is more likely to attack a target where the citizens are unarmed, rather than one where they are likely to encounter an armed citizen response. " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,achmelvich Date: 27 Dec 12 - 02:51 PM as a 'UKer' i would propose a total ban on gun ownership. here most people are very uncomfortable with the idea of a few of our police being armed. and with good reason -a few years back a guy was killed while carrying a table leg in a plastic bag- the police mistook this for a gun. and more recently jean charles de menezes was murdered by police - a brazilian electrician on his way to work, apparently mistaken for a terrorist suspect. of course, there is a completely different argument in the states - and i feel very sorry for you - but a total ban would surely be an ideal to strive for. incidentally, the landed gentry here are allowed to own shotguns for the pleasure of hunting and shooting our wildlife - disgusting gang of perverts that they are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Greg F. Date: 27 Dec 12 - 03:02 PM Denial is a river in Africa, Bruce. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: gnu Date: 27 Dec 12 - 03:03 PM Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From:GUEST,Backwoodsman - PM Date: 27 Dec 12 - 03:15 AM I don't believe anyone here has suggested a total ban on guns, even the UK-ers.... Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From:Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM Date: 27 Dec 12 - 05:27 AM ... You asked for solutions, we gave you the answer. "GET RID OF THE FUCKING GUNS!"... ********************************************************************* Yeah... right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Greg F. Date: 27 Dec 12 - 03:04 PM 2. Deter — Put police officers in schools, because with just one officer assigned to a school, the probability of a mass murder in that school drops to almost zero One word, Beardie: Columbine. You lose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: kendall Date: 27 Dec 12 - 03:11 PM Since this thread has become so nasty, and the same old opinions just go round and round ad nauseam, I have no more time to waste on childish name calling. I'm outta here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM It's interesting. Even some of those who see the need for gun regulation have bought onto some of the more sloppy stereotypes of US history and guns. Revolutionary War "won by a bunch of regular guys with guns". Wrong. Uncounted times Washington despaired at having to try to win a war with "a bunch of regular guys with guns." 'Baron" von Steuben (he claimed that title, mostly for employment reasons) was in fact essential in creating a regular army. Washington pushed constantly, with marginal success, to make the "army" as regular as possible. And he realized the idea of national defense through militia was a dead loser. And at the beginning of 1781, with mutinies, unpaid troops and defeats, it did not look good for the rebels--even with the "regular army". Militia would not have done the job. And without the British obsession with New York, combined with the French willingness to leave the West Indies undefended for a while, and the quick march by Washington's army to Virginia--and the inconclusive sea battle off the coast--which did however cut off Cornwallis' resupply or retreat--the outcome would have been different, to say the least. The French, going bankrupt partly due to the American war, were about to seek an honorable withdrawal--independence for the colonies not guaranteed. 1781 was to be the last chance. Without the constellation outlined above, there would have been no American victory that year. Even with it, the expectation was there would be more campaigns after 1781. Only the UK change of government stopped that. When the American cause relied on militia, the militia often failed the cause. The drivel about "guys with guns" winning the Revolution is large part just part of the NRA mythology. The rest of us should know better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Dec 12 - 04:30 PM Ah yes, and Benedict Arnold's treason also did not make 1780 rosy for the rebels. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: bobad Date: 27 Dec 12 - 05:10 PM A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths In part by forbidding almost all forms of firearm ownership, Japan has as few as two gun-related homicides a year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 27 Dec 12 - 05:34 PM This idea that putting guns in schools is beyond stupid, shortsighted and and ill-thought-out... I won't work for the following reasons: 1. Unless you have a team of highly trained armed guards to guard every entrance then a wacko who has done a little homework will just enter the school thru an unguarded entrance... 2. There is an assumption that these wackos don't really know how to use these guns against someone who is trained... That is BS... These wackos have grown up playing video games and have developed all the skills needed to out-shoot a cop wantabee who is packin' a 9mm Glock... 3. There are over 400,000 schools in the US, plus even more preschools, nursrey schools, day car centers... Let's say that it costs $60,000 a year per cop wantabee, do the math... Now, lets throw in some other factors... I was a "food court" today in South Charlotte... If a wacko had wanted to he could have opened fired in there and killed a couple hundred people, half of them being kids... Anyone go to see the local high school football team play??? Think on the bleachers... Couple hundred kids dead... How about church or Sunday school??? Ya'll get my drift here??? The NRA's idea isn't even half-baked... It's stupid and moronic, at best... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 27 Dec 12 - 05:43 PM BTW, Eb... Redneck-small-penis-nation decided that the best way to show how manly they were a few years back in Northern Virgina and the entire circle-jerk-crew strapped on guns just like in the old western movies and went around barging into various restaurant just to ***prove*** how tough they were... I had read about them in the paper and how they would empty out the restaurants of other customers... Not until I was in one of these restaurants with my wife and young son did I fully understand I fully understand just how disconcerting it was, told the waiter to box up our stuff and bring a check... I was so pissed that if I had had an AK15 I probably would have shot all of them... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 27 Dec 12 - 06:04 PM BTW, bb... The fact that the recent school shooting wasn't conducted with an AR15 in no way validates your argument... Guess again... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 27 Dec 12 - 08:09 PM 11 gun deaths in Japan last year... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 27 Dec 12 - 08:16 PM Bugger! Hit submit in error, (TWICE!). Mudelves please remove last two semi posts. ""Since you have shown that you cannot read simple English statements, a sane person would not waste time on you: There is no reason that anything you post could have any value."" I read very well mate, and remember that English is the language we taught you, before you fucked it up! 11000 gun deaths in the US of A compared to 41 in the UK. If you are claiming that your population is 268.3 times larger than ours, it is you who have difficulty reading and understanding simple English! Unless of course you are admitting to being insane? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 27 Dec 12 - 08:22 PM Not too sure of the 11,000 number, Don... I think it might be closer to 15,000... No matter... 200,000 Americans will have the distinct dis-pleasure of experiencing what it is like to be shot... Most will survive but that's a lot of people getting shot... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 27 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM Backwoodsman, I owe you an apology also. I hope you accept it. I may have got a bit ruffled that you thought I'm an American. I'm Canadian. I hear you loud and clear and in fact agree that no guns at all would be the ideal. I detest the thought of armed citizens walking around thinking they have the wherewithal in skill, training or knowledge to settle situations involving gun violence. And LaPierre is little short of being a shill for the gun industry. His NRA pay per year is about a million, but I still wonder if he gets gifts from arms manufacturers. I don't know now many horrific incidents it will take to drive home the point that the more guns a society has the more killings will occur involving guns. Citizens with their guns didn't help the kids in the Connecticut school, and they sure didn't help the murderer's mom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 27 Dec 12 - 08:55 PM Hear hear, brucie!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Backwoodsman Date: 28 Dec 12 - 05:23 AM No problem at all, 999, thank you for your gracious reply. And I'm 100% with you there. I did think you're a US-ian, apologies too for that unfortunate misunderstanding! :-) On a much more pleasant subject, I spent three weeks in your beautiful country in June, BC, a bit of AB, Vancouver Island and Burlington, ON. Retirement holiday - wonderful times! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: kendall Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:32 AM WOW! here's a guy who is man enough to apologize! Not surprising that he's a Canadian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Dec 12 - 09:41 AM Dang. I just wrote the best post I ever composed and it went poof! Backwoodsman, there's lots of this place left to see. You get back here and I'll help you as much as I can. Right now we're up to our waists in snow, and if it wasn't for roads we'd all be on skis or snowshoes. You mentioned being here in June which is fortuitous, that being the month that houses our two weeks of summer. I hope you saw The Rockies. I was looking for a good shot of the Nahanni River but got sidetracked in my head by the Fraser River--named for Simon Fraser by a fellow from Westminster, London, England named David Thompson. He was no slouch as an explorer either. Territory that Thompson mapped. I know some of that country fairly well and parts of it can be pretty rough. If you don't mind, where in Alberta did you get to? I lived there for thirty years and have very fond memories if it for the most part. Anyway, I can be a pain when I get going about this country so I'll stop here. Thank you again for, well, you know. Kendall, four years back you suggested Clark's canned beans on a thread that I think alluded to the fall of western civilization. Anyway, since I haven't been able to find Libby's anymore I have switched and while they ain't Libby's, they ain't bad. Been eating the kind with molasses when I have beans. I like them on buttered toast. Don't know what I've done with my trusty bean spoon, but cooking without it is not a hardship save for those around me. Thanks, buddy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: kendall Date: 28 Dec 12 - 10:00 AM Clarks? never heard of them.Are you sure I didn't say Looks? Packed in Whiting Maine? State of Maine used to be my favorite but can't find them anywhere now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Dec 12 - 10:42 AM I'm not 100% sure, but half really sure and half pretty darned sure. Looks are pretty fancy beans for a guy eats 'em out the can half the time. I really miss Libby's. Man, now I'm hungry. Back in a bit. So much for my memory. I have the can of Clark's in my hand and they're made in Canada. So it probably was Looks you mentioned years back. Guess those folks was right when they said I don't know beans :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: number 6 Date: 28 Dec 12 - 10:50 AM Well .... there ya go ... another long winded thread here in the 'ol Madcat turns into nothing but a can of beans.... ;) so on the subject of canned beans ... I recommend you bean fans try Bush's Beans. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:50 PM Well, if not the beans, the aftermath of them, bILL... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: number 6 Date: 28 Dec 12 - 01:04 PM @Bobert .... good one !! *lol* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Backwoodsman Date: 28 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM Hey Kendall, I apologised first! But no matter, we sorted our differences and the Anglo-Canadian entente is cordiale once again, and that's what's important. :-) Heinz' beans no good then? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Backwoodsman Date: 28 Dec 12 - 01:51 PM 999 - we only touched the tourist route in the far west of AB, Banff, Lake Louise, Icefields Parkway, the Athabasca Glacier, Jasper etc. it was part of our fly-drive from Vancouver, through the wine country around Penticton and Kelowna, into the Rockies and on through Prince George and Smithers to Prince Rupert, by ferry down the Inside Passage to Port hardy on the Island, Campbell River, Victoria and back to Vancouver. Magnificent scenery and very nice, friendly people everywhere we went. Best holiday we've ever had. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Dec 12 - 03:45 PM Backwoodsman, you were in some beautiful country. I lived about 80 km NNE of Jasper for 10 years. Worked a few MVCs with their EMS and Fire Department. The problem with Banff and Jasper is that while being scenic they are also quite expensive. The Banff-Jasper Highway has a few of the most beautiful spots I've ever seen. I expect you'll recall that gaping big turn in the highway where if ya look up you can see Dall sheep--solid white--on cliffs where there is next to nothing to hold on to. The Penticton/Kelowna area is something else. Great fruit orchards there. You were in some wild bits of the country a little north of there on The Yellowhead (Hwy 16). We also have a few wild areas here in the east. Anyway, if for some reason you decide to return, there's lots more to see. I've been many places in this country (except Yukon, Prince Edward Island and Labrador) and truthfully there isn't an area I can't say good things about. The people are friendly, but I expect you'd get along well regardless of where you are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: gnu Date: 28 Dec 12 - 04:06 PM Libby's, Clarke's, Grave's... we got em all here... wait... hmmm... I gotta check on Libby's next time I am at the stores. I have been known to make mistakes. But, I ALWAYS apologize... >;-) I have a whack of Clarke's with maple slurpup on accounta Mum likes it and when it's on sale... I have a SHITLOAD of Grave's with pork and molasses... comes on sale here for 50p a tin in late summer (six packs). I got about 150 tins. HGey... they are nearly three times the price I paid when they are regular price and the Bank of Nova Scotion won't give Jesus a dime of interest on his gold. Myrrhcy me, it just makes Friggincense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,achmelvich Date: 29 Dec 12 - 04:39 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZiPCJrd0_4 i love a friendly thread drift. and love this song which starts 'i was walking down the high road and this guy stops me - 'i'm just in from new zealand and i'm looking for mushy peas......' and then develops into the best page on t'internet. beautiful song from the great joe strummer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Midchuck Date: 29 Dec 12 - 09:01 AM We can probably close this thread now. The idea was that no more "assault weapons" (a term that was never defined with any specificity, but appears to mean semi-automatic shoulder weapons designed to look like military assault rifles, but are not really since they have no full-auto capability) should be sold. This has been accomplished. There was such a run on them that every gun store is sold out. Q. E. D. Peter |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Charmion Date: 29 Dec 12 - 09:07 AM I'd much rather discuss beans than gun violence any day. Heinz beans are okay if that's all there is, but I find them bland and too sweet. For best beans, it's hard beat the batch you make yourself. A slow-cooker can make the most ham-fisted son if a seacook into a Master of Beans. Dijon mustard -- that's the secret. With a good dose of garlic, some thyme, and a couple of fresh Roma tomatoes along with the canonical blackstrap molasses and salt pork. And beans, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 29 Dec 12 - 09:21 AM achmelvich, that fiddle player sure gets a workout. Thanks for the link. Charmion, when you do the beans in a slow cooker, do you first soak them over night? (I like that Dijon mustard tip, many thanks.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Charmion Date: 29 Dec 12 - 09:47 AM Slow-cooker beans do not have to be soaked, but they do have to cook a very long time. To a pound of beans, put four and a half cups of water, a chopped onion, 1/3 cup molasses, 1/4 cup brown sugar, a tablespoon of Dijon mustard, and four ounces of diced salt pork, plus the garlic, diced tomato and thyme. Cook on Low for 13 to 14 hours, then taste; you may wish to add half a teaspoon of salt. The secret to good beans is the sweet/sour balance, achieved in this recipe by the vinegar in the Dijon mustard and the acid from the tomatoes against the molasses and sugar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 29 Dec 12 - 09:53 AM Wow, thank you. I will try that out this week. One last question, Charmion: navy beans? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Charmion Date: 29 Dec 12 - 10:09 AM Yes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST Date: 29 Dec 12 - 10:35 AM First time I saw a can of Heinz beans I looked at that tomato sauce and thought, There's something hurt bad in there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 29 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM Thank you :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bill D Date: 29 Dec 12 - 11:01 AM I was afraid to open this thread to see so many late posts... but I see it's 'bean' co-opted for useful purposes. However, I worry.... if all you bean eaters ever get together, we'll have to pay guards equipped with gas masks and armed with Beano & Lysol spray to keep the place safe! I wonder if it would lead to Constitutional Amendment 2.5 and required permits.) ☺ (I used to work at a Stokley-Van Camp's cannery in Kansas, where thousands of cases of various bean products were produced every year. I know how dangerous those |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Backwoodsman Date: 29 Dec 12 - 11:10 AM OK, I'm a tough, brave guy so I'll risk the ridicule and ask, WTF are 'navy beans', and where in hell's name do I find 'molasses' (whatever that is!). And how big should the cup be - quantities by weight are much easier to understand? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Charmion Date: 29 Dec 12 - 12:08 PM Navy beans are the small white oval ones also known as Great Northern beans, pea beans, and in French, haricots blancs. Molasses is treacle. A cup (American) is 8 fluid ounces or a hair less than 250 ml. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Janie Date: 29 Dec 12 - 03:56 PM This one's for Bruce and gnu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 29 Dec 12 - 04:36 PM Many thanks, Janie. Makes a guy lonesome for Mel Brooks and Blazing Saddles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 29 Dec 12 - 04:43 PM Think about it. The National Rifle Association lists everything in society - including violent films and novels and lyrics - that might contribute to gun deaths except for one class of things: guns and their accessories. These protectors of our sacred liberties (which include life, by the way)seem to be more eager to violate the First Amendment than to revise the Second. Think about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Janie Date: 29 Dec 12 - 04:51 PM I'd rather saddles blaze than guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: number 6 Date: 29 Dec 12 - 05:10 PM Think about it. Heinz Beans ... it's not tomato sauce, its ketchup, catsup or whatever you call that syrupy goo. Let's face it, Heinz is part of the corporate oligarchy. gnu ... Graves do make good canned beans and yes the price is very reasonable. Molasses .. if your going to make your own beans you must use Crosby's Molasses.It's a family owned business right here in Saint John, New Brunswick .. where a good quality molasses is much more important than some damned gun. check it out ... Crosbys biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Charmion Date: 29 Dec 12 - 05:19 PM I absolutely agree -- Crosby's molasses is best! |
