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BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: number 6 Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:37 PM " The NRA is killing our children! You've got to stop the violence and violence begins with the NRA! " Bobert ..... cool down a bit. The violence cannot be blamed solely on the NRA .... the NRA cannot be the scapegoat for the all the despicable violence in Amerika. The NRA is a result of a very sick society. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:26 PM First of all, this is for SINS: New York has the toughest gun laws of any major city in the country and *lowest* per capita murder rate of any major city in the country... As for the NRA's press conference today??? What would you expect out of them... Their idea is an expensive recipe for disaster... First, who are these people going to be??? Cop wantabees who would otherwise be driving around shopping centers in little SUVs with a decal that reads "Security"??? Uh huh, I see... Second, di it ever occur to anyone that by putting a cop-wantabee in the school it is going to add an extra layers of jollies for the wackos to pull off the incident??? No, didn't think anyone thought of that... As for the hand wringers who say, "Geeze, we can't possibly round up all the assault weapons or big clips, can we?"... Well, no... We can't... But we can round up or give private licenses out for 99% of them... Here's how... Everyone is given 6 months to bring their assault weapons or big clips in for a "buy back" or for spacial permits... After 6 months it's an automatic 5 years in prison for possession of them... It can't be done if we say "It can't be done" but it can be done if was say "We can do this"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: bobad Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM These words from a protester at LaPierre's press conference - listen up America: "NRA stop killing our children!" the protester shouted as a security guard dragged him from the room. "It's the NRA and the assault weapons that are killing our children! Do not arm teachers! We've got to end the violence! We've got to stop the killing! Stop the killing in our schools, stop the killing in our homes, stop the killing in our streets! The NRA is killing our children! You've got to stop the violence and violence begins with the NRA! They are perpetrators of the crimes that are taking place in our schools and on our streets!" 'NRA has blood on its hands!' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Stim Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:22 PM Thanks for mentioning the Bath School Disaster, biLL. I grew up there, and, though it was never spoken of, it left a dark shadow over our world. In just the last few years, it has begun to be remembered again. In a lot of ways, it is eerily current. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: number 6 Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:12 PM Greg F. .... it does ... read Bill D.'s first post to this thread. as to it being related to the current situations, or conditions as they exist today ... just think about it for a bit .... or, you can forget about it and debate on and on about the same old things. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Greg F. Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:33 PM Bill, the Bath School Disaster of 85 years ago has fuck-all to do with the current discussion, the current situation, or conditions as they exist today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Greg F. Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:31 PM Of course we have a choice, PeeDee - stop being the usual purveyor of idiotic nonsensicalities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: theleveller Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM "Tell us if we really have a choice." Of course you do - ban private ownership of guns and start to enforce it. Is there really an alternative? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: number 6 Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:05 PM Why not have armed guards everywhere with German shepherds, metal detectors not only in the schools but in malls, hospitals, sports arenas ... armed checkpoints stratigically situated within urban areas, and even out in the countryside. Have every (legal) citizen of all ages issued flak jackets. Welcome to the armed fortress of Amerika ! Amerika, which I am convinced is now a country with way too many lunatics. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: pdq Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM "Armed guards in schools, bulletproof backpacks, armed teachers - is that really how you want to live?" Some folks here should visit Los Angeles and report back. Tell us if we really have a choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: theleveller Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM Armed guards in schools, bulletproof backpacks, armed teachers - is that really how you want to live? Is that the way you want your children to be brought up - in a constant atmosphere of fear? If so, then as a nation you are insane. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: kendall Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:35 PM Arming everyone? OMG. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: number 6 Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:29 PM I can't believe this tragedy has not been raised here in this thread... Bath School disaster biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: bobad Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM They (you, all Americans, whoever's in charge)should start treating these people, LaPierre, Gohmert etc like the mentally ill persons that they are and prescribe treatment - I would suggest a few ECT sessions to begin with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bill D Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:10 PM And by the way... LaPierre did not mention whether he advocates armed guards in every mall... on every level. Or at every high school football game... or on every school bus taking kids home.. And... who besides me has been watching CNN each evening where Piers Morgan has taken this whole debate to new heights? (Including interviews with various members of the far-right gun advocates!) Last night he had a gun shop owner from Texas on (with a Idea: arm teachers! Yep...that's right. Piers Morgan kept his face mostly straight as he asked how this would be done...where would teachers keep these guns..in a drawer? Why, no... ON THEIR PERSON says this guy. Properly holstered and secured, of course.... and naturally, they would be well-trained! My mind recoils at the idea of my 4th grade teacher, Miss Isgrigg, with a Glock strapped to her hip.... This idea-filled gun shop owner agrees with the thoughtful Texas legislator Louis Gohmert about the idea that EVERYONE should be able to go armed EVERYWHERE! Church...store...political rallies... wait... I seem to remember... ah, well |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:07 PM "Habits are haRD TO BREAK. Ask any heroin freak. Or, a smoker." Or gun nut. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Greg F. Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:56 PM LaPierre's always been a fuckwit, Jack. And he doesn't have the excuse of Charlton Heston's cold, dead brain. But the problem remains the cold, dead brains of the LaPierre acolytes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Stu Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:54 PM "Those of us like Kendall, myself and others just protect other people the best we can." Olddude, I have the greatest of respect for you and some of the other guys on this forum, but I have to say this is a fantasy. You might stop an attack on yourself (a US mate of mine did stop a mugger who came up to him in a car park by sticking a gun in his face), but would you really engage in a shoot-out in a crowded place, and be sure you wouldn't hurt an innocent? Might you not be encouraging the insane personal arms race that's happening in your country? From here, it looks likes lunacy. When I'm in the states, it looks like lunacy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Stu Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:47 PM Wow. Just heard LaPierre's statement on Newtown. One of the most disrespectful, disingenuous and downright nasty statements in the wake of this disaster it could have been possible to make. He's actually advocating having arms in schools for Christ's sake - this is pure insanity. Kids should not be taught in any building with weapons in it, they should be as far removed from violence as is possible. He is teaching your children into people whose only response to violence is more violence, like some fundamentalist Taliban lunatic. Guns in schools? My god, is there really such a lack of will and imagination it's come to that. Do you understand what this sounds like to the rest of the world (I know, you don't care, no foreigner's gonna tell the USA what to do yadda yadda yadda)? These are your children for fucks sake! Wake up! Supporting gun ownership (apart from hunting, sports shooting and serving law enforcement officers) means you are happy to allow this nightmare to continue. You are condemning parents to the grief of loosing a child again in the future, and if your conscience allows for that then you are beyond help. There is no protection against guns apart from giving them up and making them socially unacceptable, end of. Too many guns out there already? Make them the socially unacceptable because they are designed to kill people. Unfuckingbelieveable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bill D Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM here it is.. the NRAs 'solution' Entirely predictable and close to useless. If you were a determined, deranged wannabe killer and you knew an armed guard was waiting, at a school, where would you switch your planned attack to? A school bus? A school yard at recess? A local playground? Maybe even just a church, where the praying could begin immediately.... Why, with the NRA guiding the safeguards, the next guy might only manage to shoot 10-12! Yes, I am cynical...and pissed... can you tell? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,SINSULL Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:21 PM New York City has and has always had some of the toughest control laws in the country. You see how well that is working out. I personally believe that nothing can be done to control guns intelligently until reasonable gun owners cut their ties to the NRA and lead the way. The NRA cannot afford to lose their money or their numbers. SINS, who would prefer that you all stop the childish name calling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: kendall Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:03 PM Habits are haRD TO BREAK. Ask any heroin freak. Or, a smoker. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Megan L Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:59 AM There is no such thing as an old gunslinger. Your eyesight is not what it was, your hand is not as steady, your reaction time is not so fast and your perception is not as accurate. It does not matter what anyone did in their former life things decline as you get older. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: johncharles Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:34 AM The NRA response is entirely predictable; armed guards in schools. God save America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: olddude Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:16 AM You see the problem my friends is this. There are so many weapons out there now that it is impossible to remove them. You would have to go door to door and that isn't possible either as we have search laws. So what is the best we can do. fix the loopholes. That is about it .. sorry to say but they ain't going away .. Law abiding people would turn them in if a law was passed but no law would ever be passed. However countries like Mexico, that doesn't work. The streets run red from gun violence in a country that No one is allowed any weapon. Unless society changes, people go back to caring about others and looking after your neighbors and raising our kids right. Nothing will change. Fixing the loopholes will help, but sadly it will continue. A cililian carrying a firearm legally is a defacto cop. So unless a person is really qualified and knows that, then they should not. Those of us like Kendall, myself and others just protect other people the best we can. It all sucks but it is what it is |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: saulgoldie Date: 21 Dec 12 - 10:22 AM We do not know for sure if certain mental conditions might cause an individual to shoot someone. We do not know that taking care of mental conditions better than we do would "fix" the problem. We do not know whether or not violent movies, games, or physical or mental abuse will directly lead to an individual shooting someone. We can form correlations and speculate. But correlations, even strong correlations do not prove causality. But they bear further investigation, that is for sure. Then, what we do with the results is subject to prejudice, preconceptions, and politics. What we DO know, is that if there is no gun present, then there can be no gun-related death. Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Edthefolkie Date: 21 Dec 12 - 09:54 AM I hesitate, as a mere Brit with no personal armament and no desire to have any, to enter the bear pit, BUT..... The US used to be looked up to by the world. The US sent men to the Moon. The US is still the most powerful nation on Earth. The US has many more church going supposed Christians (remember "Do good to them that despise you"?)than most other countries. And some of the people on this forum are telling me that the US cannot and must not reduce the chances of another disturbed person slaughtering his mother, five other adults, and TWENTY primary school children? I'm sorry guys, but some of you need a reality check. You CAN stop this if you want to. Guns were invented to kill, guns do kill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 21 Dec 12 - 09:28 AM Yes, the sad truth is that because of the number of guns in ordinary folks homes that domestic murder rates are up with a direct correlation between the the numbers... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: John P Date: 21 Dec 12 - 09:24 AM statistically the people most likely to kill you are your nearest and dearest Yes, this is why I find the gunners' oft-repeated statement that "we have plenty of laws, but criminals don't pay attention to them" to be fatuous and dangerous. If it were illegal to obtain a gun, someone would have to choose to become a criminal before they pull the trigger, and we might have a chance of stopping them. The way it is now, most people who shoot others don't become criminals until they open fire. It's too late at that point. Also, I think that most people would not choose to become criminals in order to own a gun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Dec 12 - 08:18 AM Well, obviously anyone who kills you is liable to be committing a crime. But most of the time they are going to be law-abiding in general, or at least conviction-free. As has often been pointed out, statisticlly the people most likely to kill you are your nearest and dearest (and vice versa). Even here in England, though it is less likely to involve guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Dec 12 - 08:16 AM " the law prohibiting "assault weapon" was allowed to lapse by W." Since it used meaningless definitions, it should have lapsed. As stated, ASSALT RIFLES are already illegal for all practical purposes. "And the law was flaweed by a failure to adequately characterize just wat an "assault weapon" was. " TRUE- and NO effort has been made by those seeking to reinstate it to define WHAT they are banning. "A more practicable approach would be to maintain a list of specific weapons which would be prohibited, and have each new weapon introduced by any manufacturer categorized. There aren't that many." See 1934 Gun act, and Relic and Curios list. "As far as gun ontrol vs. Psychological approsches--they'tr not mutually exclusive. Both should be investigated." TRUE, but they will pass meaningless laws to support political agendas, and leave the problem unresolved. That has been the consistent history of the US ( under BOTH parties) in regards to many serious problems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: gnu Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:13 PM Bob... far mor "effective" weapons are made in machine shops, privately, every day by criminals. REAL criminals do not buy "regular" guns with serial numbers made by weapons makers. The loose gun laws in the US make it easy for common street criminals to obtain guns. When we read that 10k+ handgun related deaths occur in USA in one year, we are talking about "legal" guns. That is a problem now... as I understand it (I am also a Canuck). This will only add to that problem. It's sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:11 PM Hey, that guy is my boss... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:55 PM Now you can have your very own...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8 Seems to me a Carpenter had some pretty good ideas, we celebrate His birthday on Dec. 25 But WHO is paying attention around here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM Bang! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:48 PM And this...automatic shotgun...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c "the development stage" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:43 PM Bill & Bobert: Bill, I was responding to your statement that this kind of tragedy could not be done with a knife...not entirely accurate. More similar stories available. Bobert: have done all the rethinking for many years. But then, while all the gun control yak yak is going on, I wonder if they intend to give out awards? Best gun control law, most effective gun control law, most respected gun control law, While "they are doing that", We have this going on...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqzJlBcCsow |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: dick greenhaus Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM BB- the law prohibiting "assault weapon" was allowed to lapse by W. And the law was flaweed by a failure to adequately characterize just wat an "assault weapon" was. A more practicable approach would be to maintain a list of specific weapons which would be prohibited, and have each new weapon introduced by any manufacturer categorized. There aren't that many. As far as gun ontrol vs. Psychological approsches--they'tr not mutually exclusive. Both should be investigated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Greg F. Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:43 PM If NRA members and other gun owners were actually forced to show up for drills... Well, Ron - a meeting of the minds after all these years. Whooda thunkit. Show up for drill? With their pot-bellies, booze, and anti-government virulence? Should be a real hoot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM An interesting aspect of the situation is that for all the smug assurances that the Supreme Court has already spoken on the question of whether there is a strong link between the right to bear arms and the obligation to participate in a "well-regulated" militia, the fact is that the Heller decision was 5-4. Swing vote, as often happens, was Kennedy. I'd think it likely that if a case raising virtually the same issues comes before the Court again, he might well (especially if he reads some history in the interim) influenced by the tragic results of the current gun-rights regime, vote the other way. If NRA members and other gun owners were actually forced to show up for drills, there would be a sea change in the status quo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: John P Date: 20 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM How many generations will it take to remake the culture of an entire country? Overt bigotry against black people finally became socially unacceptable only after we passed strong federal laws making discrimination illegal. I don't know which caused which, but I think it would be interesting to find out what would happen to our culture if most guns were illegal and the "official" word on the subject was that gun ownership without proved need was unacceptable. Thirty years from now, it would be nice if elder politicians with youthful ties to the NRA, in order to keep their seats, had to repeatedly apologize for it and explain how their eyes were finally opened to how they were supporting gun violence. Or that overtly violent movies and games would meet the same response that games about being a slave owner or about cleaning out the ghettos would meet today. The same comparisons can be made about the role of women in our society, and which behaviors and words are acceptable and which are not. Changing the general view of society is possible, and strong federal laws could help with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Greg F. Date: 20 Dec 12 - 10:11 AM yeah, Bruce, but what about a Klan member who WASN'T wearing a hood? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 20 Dec 12 - 10:06 AM Now, now, now... Ya'll take a chill pill... Ya'll would get along fine... I'm sure... (...or not...) B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: beardedbruce Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:59 AM "First of all, Greg, I don't want to ruin your holiday season but if you were to sit down with bb and have a discussion with him about anything but his politics you'd find him intelligent and very cordial" Not likely- I would no more sit down with Greggie than you would with a hooded KKK member. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Greg F. Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:43 AM But Bruce - you haven't posted any valid facts! Oh, and there's 3 "g's" in Greggie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: beardedbruce Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:27 AM DonT, "Because Bruce, some of us have been paying attention and know that different states act in different ways, some of them not having the laws you mention. So, the need is for laws you don't have now. Federal laws overriding states' laws in the interests of public safety nationwide." I was referring to the requirements for a FFL ( Note the first F is FEDERAL) To transfer firearms OVER STATE LINES requires going through at least one. The definition in Mass. law of an assault weapon included flintlock one-shot Kentucky rifles- making them illegal to transport THROUGH the state even in locked cases. Until there is an agreed upon definition of "assault weapon" any law on such is either redundant with present law, ( outlawing automatic weapons for private owners except with stringent and expensive permits,as of 1934) which should be enforced, or is a broad attempt to ban firearms that are suitable for hunting and target shooting. The fact that a firearm has a bayonet lug ( making it a spear!) or a black plastic stock DOES NOT MAKE IT MORE DANGEROUS. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: kendall Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:19 AM Join the club, BB. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: beardedbruce Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:16 AM So, Gregie - you must enjoy posting spurious & irrelevent nonsense for the entertainment value alone? 'Cept it isn't entertaining- ... it's just personal attacks and racist lies. I note you have nothing to say about the validity of what I have posted. If you think that facts are irrelevant, that says more about you and the viewpoint you support than it does about me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:00 AM Menatl health is an entire "other issue"... And it is so complex that neither the NRA nor the Congress has the slightest understanding... To have some understanding of just how we have arrived here one has to go back to the early 80s when we collectively decided to spend less on mental health... That meant that a lot of folks who needed inpatient treatment were being pushed out into society for social workers and out-patient mental health professionals to baby-sit, cajole and manage... We've had this discussion before but it might be one worth re-visiting... Several of us here in the Mudpit have or have had hands on experience working with people with mental illness... The problem isn't just the changed cultural and societal views of folks with mental illness but the logical extension of those prejudices and biases that has led us to collectively spend less and less and less on treating mental illness... "Shake it off, son" is not an option... So, if the NRA wants to become an advocate for mental health then I'm all for that... Won't fix shit in terms of mass murders for decades, however, without the things that BillD, myself and others have advocated going back years in terms of sensible gun controls... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: kendall Date: 20 Dec 12 - 04:22 AM "No plan of how to begin or proceed." that says it all, BillD. |
