BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 09:32 AM

Also provides a 'hit list' for pro-gun extremists. Is there a comparable list of organisations, corporation and prominent individuals who take an anti gun control standpoint?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 09:58 AM

Also provides a 'hit list' for pro-gun extremists.

You gotta problem wid dat???

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:13 AM

It may provide a hit list but half the fuckers can't read. Evens up the odds.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM

That was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM

Dear NRA...

And you brag about list all those prominent, exemplary citizens and organizations as problems and enemies to be watched with concern and fought against?
Where is your list of sane, reasonable people whose advice and counsel we should be following?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:24 PM

I'm writing to the NRA
For the work they've done to keep us free
They'll stand behind us any day
When automatics start to spray
But there's one thing I'd like to see
And that's them standing in front of me

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:34 PM

Catchy, 9... needs a chorus and a big name to put it on Yooooo-Tooob

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 04:08 PM

Hey, I know a big name to put with it...

..Bruce "The Badman" Murdock!!!

As for the NRA and this round... They'll probably win the round but will take some shots and we'll more than likely get tighter background checks and the gun show loophole plugged up but equally important funding restored to the CDC for it study on the effects of gun violence...

I know the NRA loves to brag about _____________ (pick any ridiculously high number) are saved by all these guns and, of course, they have a shit load of highly paid bloggers that do nothing 40 hours a week but clog up every search engine extolling those stats as if they are real but...

... those stats are pure USDA 100% Choice Bullshit...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 04:41 PM

The stats ain't quite that pure, Bobert. I think there might be more than a bit of equine effluence mixed in there.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 05:51 PM

From: GUEST,999 - PM
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:24 PM

I love it! Man... you got a song there... flesh it out. Brings a bunch of images and idea's into my head. No shit... if you don't work on it, I'll be sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 05:53 PM

NRA's "enemy list"

Almost makes ya nostalgic for old tricky Dick Nixon, don't it??

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:22 PM

Thank you Bill and gnu. I'll give it a shot--heh heh. Talkin' blues. Need a day or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 09:42 PM

Yup... talkin' blues would work jes' fine... (as Pogo would say)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:39 AM

Over 1,057,000 people have been killed by guns in the U.S.A. since John Lennon was shot and killed on December8, 1980.

Yoko Ono

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:59 AM

Population of USA in 1980-    227,224,681
Population of USA in Jul 2012-313,914,040         

wow... they're gaining anyway! Maybe we need more guns with large magazines!

(he said with tongue firmly buried in cheek, lest anyone take it seriously)

A more important statistic would be the many more millions whose lives have been affected by the losses embedded in that 1,057,000... and counting.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:09 PM

I was not prepared to see that photo, bobad. A very, very, powerful image.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:12 PM

Yes Stim, the photo of John Lennon's blood stained eyeglasses do make a powerful statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:43 PM

Indeed. But not about gun control for me. I don't care to explin. It'll just get shit upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:24 AM

Gun control fight enters round two after NRA victory on assault weapons

Very strange people. Maybe a very strange people?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:41 AM

Our only real hope is to someday elect a congress with enough members who are more dedicated to principle and reason than to the financial support of the NRA and related groups.

I'm not holding my breath, as I don't look good in blue.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 10:04 AM

There are two major problems with having a saner Congress, Bill...

The worst gerrymandering since maybe forever by the Republicans to hold the House of Representatives no matter how badly they are beaten by the popular vote as they were in the last election...

The Senate rules that give more power to the minority than the majority...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 12:08 PM

I like the picture of Wayne LaPierre in the Guardian a lot, McGrath.

The thing that you probably don't understand, and most people don't, is that the NRA lobbying is purely and simply about money.

Most Americans don't either have or want guns. Most of the ones who have them don't have problems with gun control legislation(though you wouldn't know it). However, the gun manufacturers makes a ton of money marketing assault rifles, and even more on the ammo.
They are the ones behind the NRA efforts, not the NRA membership. They pump millions of dollars into to organization to support it's efforts.

The gun manufacturers look at the large percentage of Americans who don't have guns as an untapped market, and they recognize that fear sells guns. To draw a fairly tasteless parallel, every time there's a killing, they make a killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:33 PM

I've seen pictures since the Sandy Hook of gun shops where the only thing left on the shelves is the dust... Not one gun left... Not one bullet left...

The NRA and gun shop owners love murder... And if it's kids getting murdered, it's even better for them...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM

So the minority who make sure that the NRA is extreme are more powerful than the majority who don't? How does it come about the tail wags the dog? It doesn't seem to happen with other hobby enthusiasts. You don't get CAMRA campaigning for the right to drink and drive, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

Well, I said "gun owners" not NRA members. Most gun owners are not NRA members. Even so, I have read that a lot of NRA members don't like the direction the organization has taken.

And, actually, a lot of membership associations, both professional and amateur, end up being dominated by corporate and business interests. Associations typically try to attract support for their objectives from corporations and other enterprises that provide goods and services for their members. Support being another word for money. They give their "sponsors" access to their leadership (including their lobbyists), they give them seats on their plenaries, the give them space at their conferences and meetings, and they even give memberships to their employees. It isn't long before the "sponsors" start calling the shots. It's the famous Golden Rule--"he who has the gold makes the rules."

And, just in case you didn't realize it, when people talk about Washington being dominated by "special interest groups", they mean the associations.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM

I still don't get it, if there really is a majority of citizens, and even of gun owners who don't like the NRA lobby, why do they lie down and let an embarrassing minority walk all over them?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM

Well, gosh. "I still don't get it, if there really is a majority of citizens, and even of gun owners who don't like the NRA lobby, why do they lie down and let an embarrassing minority walk all over them?"

Ya kinda would wonder. I have said on a LOT of gun threads that Mudcat has the people with the brains and the resources to get the job done. Seriously... NO prpb! That was met with, "Ya can't fight em."

Wish I was a Yank for a while and I could muster what is required to get the job done if I could rely on the human resources within Mudcat... except, of course, for those that ween about poor gun laws and then excuse themselves that standing up to be counted is useless and sit back down on their asses.

Odd... I get shit upon for my defense of responsible gun oownership and also for my endorsement of good gun laws. No wonder I seldom open gun threads any more. The gun nuts and the anti gun nuts are fuckin nuts. Seriously... none of you nuts can figure out such a simple problem and get the job done because yer nuts. I have PROOF... people are being shoy in the streets! What's so hard to understand?

Have fun with it. I'll check back someday if I hear a shot ring out near one of you. Hope you don't make the headlines as an innocent bystander while being a guilty bystander in the war on the illegal use of guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:23 AM

Money and power are in the hands of the minority, McGrath. For the time being, there is neither money or politcal power for the other side. There is always a rise in public sentiment when something terrible occurs, but no one has succeeded in mobilizing those sentiments into the kind of action that you think is needed, though people continue to try.

As for you, Gnu--talk is cheap, and Mudcat is mostly talk. Change isn't either easy or certain...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:37 AM

McG,

We don't have a representative form of government any more... We have an oligarchy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM

"any more"? Did we ever. Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 10:55 AM

Presumably the money which is wielded by the gun lobby comes from people who spend a lot on guns. The gun firms then proceed to spend a fraction of the profit they make from gun sales on finncing lobbying against gun laws. Since there are more people who don't spend a lot of guns, that means that in principle there should be a lot more money available to outspend the gun lobby.

Presumably the people who see preventing sensible gun laws as their priority (I mean the kind of things that gnu favours) must be a great deal more dedicated to their cause than the ones who see preventing school massacres as a higher priority.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 10:58 AM

More 'reasons' why " ...a majority of citizens, and even of gun owners who don't like the NRA lobby..." can't get something done.

1)That majority is only about being unhappy with the NRA. Many of those are also majorities in various conservative causes, and can't bring themselves to vote for candidates they dislike on other issues.

2)Many of those who dislike the NRA at the moment are also gun owners who don't want any restrictions on their own guns.... they just favor 'moderate' restrictions, while the NRA is trying to avoid any restrictions.

3)As Stim indicates, money, in the form of advertising and campaign contributions, flows to candidates who support the wider range of conservative causes. Religion, abortion, 'states rights', etc., are often linked with gun laws in much propaganda.... the NRA knows how to piggy-back their agenda on other causes.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:31 PM

So if most gun owners would like moderate restrictions, why don't they make the NRA represent their wishes?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM

""So the minority who make sure that the NRA is extreme are more powerful than the majority who don't? How does it come about the tail wags the dog?""

Because the tail has all the mon-n-n-ney, and the dog isn't in any position to watch how it's spent, facing in the wrong direction.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:32 PM

I've given up posting links, McGrath, but the NRA is run from the top down, and politics are extremely right wing. They use the huge amount of money and power at their disposal to make people represent their wishes, not the other way around. If you google some thing like, "Who funds the NRA?" or a similarly provacative question, you will find many interesting things.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:30 PM

And... the NRA, and Wayne LaPierre, are not the top of the ladder. The gun manufacturers and importers, who wish to remain as invisible as possible, drive the agenda.
The gun manufacturers have a problem: unlike someone who sells soap or beans, their products don't wear out, and don't 'need' replenishing often. They depend on new customers and multiple sales to former customers. The very idea of restrictions like background checks and limits on type and capacity of weapons scares them.... it simply means far fewer sales!

Right now they are making money hand-over-fist as those who desire guns are stocking up....just in case.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:26 PM

It has been suggested, sardonically(I think), that the gun mfgs actually encourage the random shootings in order to boost sales. At least one rampage killer claimed to have done it because he believed Obama wanted to take his guns away, and that is one of the standard NRA lines. And so it goes...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM

Another very tragic shooting

children shooting babies

and it never ends

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM

Trying to see a silver lining, the American example is probably an excellent warning against other countries following it. Rather like the American system of health provision.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM

Curious to know, McGrath, what you think the details of that warning might be. Enquiring minds, and all...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM

?

Gun deaths in USA in 2012, 33,000
Gun deaths in UK in 2012, 51...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:26 PM

I don't see any lessons there.

I have been reading that violent crime is increasing on your islands, and have also read about a person called Gary George who murdered and tortured one Andrew Nall, as another of your citizens, Christine Holleran, stood by. One is inclined to think that you are on the same path, though perhaps you don't realize it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM

I'm sure that, as demographics and society change over time, the UK and other countries will have increasing issues with violence. There are always those who will disregard gun laws and acquire illegal weapons, whether for planned criminal activities, internal disputes among immigrants or just to make money selling them.
Even if there IS some increase, the strict laws and fewer guns will keep the UK relatively much safer & saner than what we must deal with in the US.

Sadly, I can't see any easy way for us to get out of this situation-- there are simply too many guns already in private hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:44 PM

New York Mayor Michael Bloomburg is going to spend $12M of his personal money to run ads in districts where representatives live to try to get some pressure on these folks...

Wayne LaPierre, the head of the NRA, is blasting Bloomburg saying he's trying to buy gun control???

Buy it with $12M???

Hahahahaha...

The NRA has $400M in the bank...

$400M > $12M...

LaPierre needs a math refresher...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:45 PM

You could be right, and violence might rise in time, Stim. But the murder rate for London was the lowest for 42 years in 2012, six of them involving guns, so you also could be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:26 PM

Our murder rate and shooting rate are at all time lows as well, and they seem to be that way in much of the world. This has been mentioned numerous times in this thread. In case it is not clear, I am not in favor of any murders or killings of any sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:09 AM

The general public in the UK are not permitted to own firearms.
Therefore, virtually no-one has a gun.
People who don't have guns can't shoot people.
Therefore, the UK shootings rate is tiny in comparison with the US.
QED.

it's so fucking simple, a child of five can understand it.
So why can't adult Americans (who were smart enough to get men to the moon) understand it?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:51 AM

*sigh* Backwoodsman.... they DO understand it. Some simply don't care. But the largest group is those who rationalize keeping their guns by asserting that "we have all the laws we need to find & punish abusers of the right to have guns, but those laws are just not being enforced!" They assert then that: "Because there ARE so many bad guys with guns now, us good guys need guns to protect our families!"

Those patently stupid arguments are made at the highest levels of the NRA and by their tame members of congress! Many of us KNOW they are stupid, but the path to reverse the situation is almost non-existant.... as if one takes a rocky path along a mountain ledge and sees it crumbling away behind them.

*I* don't know why, after all the explanations I and others have posted about the history of the US and the political, cultural & sociological development in the last 300 years, that many in the UK continue to ask us why we don't just 'write new laws' or 'vote for sane politicans'. Many of us TRY to do just that. We are getting close to one little step to ease one area of the problem....universal background checks for anyone seeking to acquire a gun.
**Maybe** one day we'll get a Congress and courts who will pass even stronger laws....and then you know what? We'll have millions of VERY angry gun nuts who have been stockpiling weapons to contend with.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:04 PM

Yes Bill, I know YOU understand it, I wasn't thinking of you when I posted, but I get sick and tired of seeing Americans on TV, weeping and wailing every time a bunch of kids are shot, emoting at vigils, etc., then, when some UK-er gives them the answer, they can't or won't face it and they come out with dumbfuck drivel like "I don't see any lessons there. I have been reading that violent crime is increasing on your islands, and have also read about a person called Gary George who murdered and tortured one Andrew Nall, as another of your citizens, Christine Holleran, stood by. One is inclined to think that you are on the same path, though perhaps you don't realize it." Complete hogwash. And quoting one single incident in order to justify the argument is.....ludicrous.

The UK's shooting rate has been steady at between 50 (fifty!) and 100 (one hundred!) for the past twenty-odd years, and a large percentage of those are gang-on-gang shootings related to drug turf-wars (and those arseholes are welcome to blow each other to hell AFAIC). Criminals such as burglars (home-invaders, to use your quaint expression) don't carry guns here because, if they did and get caught, the jail-time they would get is very much heavier - even though they haven't actually shot anyone, just being armed is regarded as extremely serious, and only slightly less serious than actual murder.

And I get sick to the back teeth of hearing about "the bad guys", and the "mad-dog killers" that people keep drivelling on about needing to protect themselves from. It's testosterone-fuelled crap. Bad guys and mad-dog killers are only those things because they have easy access to guns! Take the fucking guns away and they're just Wimpy Joes with no more power to do harm than anyone else who doesn't have a gun. I've travelled all over England and Scotland, to cities, rural areas and wild country - I've never seen a gun (except in the hands of farmers, the Armed Forces or Police Officers) and I've never, ever had any reason to fear that I've been in danger from someone with a gun. I wish I could say that's the case when I've travelled in the USA, but it's far from it.

I wish the lead-heads would wake up over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:09 PM

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm so BLOODY frustrated that, every time we Brits demonstrate, from our ACTUAL EXPERIENCE, to Americans that guns are not necessary for a peaceful, fear-free life, we face the same old bullshit excuses and denials from the lead-heads, small-dicks and over-the-hill ex-servicemen.

It's appalling that those idiots care more about their dick-enhancers than they do about your nation's kids.