Traditions: Transferable?

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 03:21 PM

For some reason 'wassailing' has been practised in Sheffield recently at tree plantings , one of a Walnut, by Richard hawley, local hit musician (ex Pulp)
I wonde rif it is because it is a nice 'non religious' ceremony with no obvious sectarian significance.

Maybe as our multicultural society leads us into the possibiity of ghettos we may adopt apparently secular traditions which may in ancient ties have had more of a religious significance.

Christmas nativities are becoming a bit like that, we had a pizza delivery boy and a spaceman along with the magi! To give everyone a chance of a part more animals are being introduced at the manger.

I did read that in Japan they had Santa Claus on a cross in one department store at Christmas.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 10:13 AM

My sister in Exeter bought her fruit trees from a nursery which claims to sell 'strains' of the usual varieties which are particularly suited to her locality.

There certainly is a difference beetween strains (or maybe the rootstock influences things) as my Victoria plums all fruit at slightly different (overlapping) times.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:51 AM

Cox's Orange Pippin... many local nurseries buy their sale stock from wholesalers...

but you can order young trees from mail order sources like Stark or Miller nurseries.

support heritage breeds and plants and the organizations that work to preserve them...

just like many mudcatters do with musical forms...

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:12 AM

Thanks for the info, Brian.

I was pretty sure that one of the Wassail songs widely sung outside the folk music world originated in Yorkshire which is what prompted me to go looking. I Wasn't able to confirm it but your link will certainly have more credibility than any of mine.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 05:53 AM

"I don't disapprove of "academic folklorists".

Don't worry, it wasn't you...

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 10:43 PM

Ah yes Rumncoke.


God bless every good man that has an apple tree.

Here in Colorado Springs there are six apple trees recommended by the local university as being suited for this area. One of these is Cox's Orange Pippin. And guess what? Not one nursery in the area has a Cox's in stock and most of them have never heard of it.

So as much as I love your tradition, I think we are going to have to work hard to establish it.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 03:36 PM

Brian,

I don't disapprove of "academic folklorists".

Thanks for further info.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 12:34 PM

Mr Happy: with apologies to readers who disapprove of "academic folklorists", if you go to the Roud Index on the EFDSS pages, and enter 209 under Roud Number you'll find 274 entries for what is essentially the same wassail song, with or without apple trees as the case may be. There seem to be no examples from the Northernmost counties (Northumberland and Cumberland), but twenty-odd from Yorkshire - many collected as recently as the 1970s by Ruaridh Greig and Mudcat contributor Steve Gardham - three from Lancashire, and one from Birkenhead in Cheshire.

So there is evidence of a wassailing tradition in the North West, and bearing in mind the geographical bias of the early collectors, it's fair to assume it was more widespread than those handful of examples might suggest.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 11:48 AM

It was collated from about four sources.

I'll check back and post some links.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 09:43 AM

Tootler,

Thanks for the additional info.

Is there a source?

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 06:49 AM

I mentioned in an earlier post that "apple wassailing" down in my part of Sussex is known as "apple howling". Is this term use anywhere else?

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 07:00 PM

Mr Happy near the top of the thread made this comment:

I queried that Wassailing's not part of tradition in this area & there's no significant apple orchards hereabouts to respond to the coaxing effect of the Wassail

I was somewhat puzzled by this as many of the Wassailing songs mention ale and do not mention apples or cider, so I did a hunt round the internet and this, in summary was some of my findings:

The word "Wassail" comes from Old English "Waes Hael" which means "Be well". The conventional response was "drinc hael" (drink well).

Wassailing originated from the lord of the manor wishing his tenants well at the beginning of the year and the tradition came to be associated with twelth night (The end of the Yuletide celebrations and the start of the new farming year). In the old, Julian, calendar this was 17 January.

Wassailing came to involve people going from house to house carrying a wassail cup of spiced ale and wishing the residents well. In return the residents would give drink, food & money to the wassailers.

Apple tree wassailing was a specific form of wassailing, largely confined to the cider producing counties of South West England and involved going round the orchards pouring cider into the roots of the apple trees to encourage them to fruit in the coming year.

So wassailing was not necessarily about cider or blessing apple trees, though it could be in some parts of the country.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM

Here in Canada Orange Peel Morris have been around since 1996.
11 Years ago, we started the Orange Peel Carollers, although some have been Carolling for a lot longer than that, doing several of the Yorkshire and Sheffield Village Carols.
Five or six years ago we were asked to do a Mummers Play for 12th Night Festivities in Cambridge Ontario, we did the play and all was well.
The third year of the celebration WE wanted to do a different play and were told by several people "You can't do a different one, It's Traditional Now"
We also do an Apple Wassail on or around the 17th of Jan, which for some reason seems to be one of the coldest nights we have, as low as -25 on one occasion. This has developed our own OP tradition of NOT lighting the Brandy on the Christmas Cake with a sword though it.
JohnB any other good traditions around we can borrow?

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM

Here's my old Abbots Bromley Horn Dance thread:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=104600&messages=54

Which was a lot of fun.

Well I was wondering when that one would get dragged in to it to be honest ... :)

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:20 AM

Here's my old Abbots Bromley Horn Dance thread:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=104600&messages=54

Which was a lot of fun.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:14 AM

I witnessed a performance of the Abbott's Bromley Horn Dance at Pinewoods Camp, Massachusetts, a dozen years ago. It was performed in a forest at dead of night, in absolute silence, save for the strains of the Northumbrian pipes playing that weird modal tune that some people associate with the dance, and the occasional soft click as the antlers touched.

It was performed with a degree of reverence and restraint far removed from anything that happens these days (or, I suspect, ever) in Abbott's Bromley itself - but it was nonetheless a very moving experience.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

I vaguely recall some grumbling about how the Abbots Bromly Horn Dance has been altered from its original context and therefore no longer valid... whatever valid means...

I have a musical friend who is Greek Orthodox and he loves all kinds of liturgical music... so whenever I find something, I share it with him... one such CD was of Russian Orthodox music performed by a classically trained singer... and my friend was quick to point out how this was a corruption of the intent of the music... which is only to be sung as a religious rite, never a performance.

Somewhat akin, I think, to how the Koran can't be translated from the arabic and still be valid.

So, I guess it's true that you can't please all of the people all of the time... so why try

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 10:31 AM

If it's acceptable to TRANSFER a TRADITION into a REVIVAL context, then does it matter where that revival takes place - even when the original TRADITION is pottering along quite nicely? Some weirdly perverted 'Time Framed' version THE ABBOTS BROMLEY HORN DANCE is a REN FAIR FAVOURITE in the USA - danced in all seriousness too. I wouldn't be surprised, or indeed in the least bit offended, to find TAR BARRELS being paraded by the earnest folkies through the streets of ALLENDALE NEW JERSEY (or SOUTH CAROLINA).

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 07:19 AM

MtheGM,

Brilliant, LOL!!

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 07:17 AM

I think we have demonstrated that traditions are human inventions that are both transferable and transmutable (they change in both procedure and meaning over time). They are known as customs in sociology.

They also fill human needs, because if they cease to meet those needs they either change or disappear.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 07:13 AM

Re the "how long it takes?" element of the OP. I was once among the founder-members of staff at a new London comprehensive school, Peckham Manor. We ended school for the first half-term holiday at 2.20 instead of the usual 3.50. On the last day of that term, the Deputy Head posted a notice in the staff room:

"In accordance with Peckham Manor School tradition, school will end today at 2.20."

That didn't take long, did it?

~M~

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:45 AM

Round our way (Sheffield) I notice people tie ribbons and leave flowers on trees in memory of people, not always at accident spots ( teddy bears etc !)

Over the years other rpeople add to them even if they don't know what it is for . That seems to satisfy a basic urge to give thanks for a life in general or just being there or here. Like cairns in the hills.
In time such decking a tree or a significant site can become a tradition and even a cult or part of a religion which is passed on as new religions are adopted or imposed so such accretions become strong traditions .

Will we all give thanks if we survive today!? People are going on about it like there'll be no tomorrow but still rushing around buying presents.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 05:40 AM

Since, as McGrath of Harlow has already pointed out,
tradition = innovation + passage of time,
I would suggest that a tradition will successfully transplant when there is a reason to keep doing it in its new location and environment, until it reaches the point where *not* doing it becomes more unusual to the participants than doing it.

Whether that reason for keeping to do it is because it reaffirms statutory and legal rights and privileges, or it ensures that the crops grow and the sun rises, or because it's become a cherished and anticipated event in a group's annual calendar, it is I feel in many ways the repetition of the action itself that reinforces the bond between the participants. As a side thought I would include spectators in that, because there are many people who have never been a participant in a rite or revel but would feel a sense of loss and disconnection if they were not there to be present at their chosen event.

There are traditions that go back hundreds of years, there are traditions that go back to their invention by the Victorians, and there are traditions that only started a few years ago. In a game of traditional Top Trumps, the tradition of my side The Powderkegs dancing out on Boxing Day or May morning will never 'beat' the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance or the Padstow Obby Oss: but whilst the academic folklorists are busy playing Tradition Top Trumps, the rest of us are probably having too much fun to notice ...

That's a bit of a witter, sorry. I'm not even sure what it adds to the OP's question - but (if you have) you've read it now, so sorry about that ....

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 05:19 AM

Well I've been reading this thread and muttering 'no, no'
1) I live less than 10 miles from John and we have an orchard, which can do with a good singing to, if that would make it do any better this year than last year
2) We grow fruit that has far more taste than anything you can buy in the shops. Commercial fruit is grown to store well and travel well. A couple of our trees have fruit that taste great if you pick them and eat on the way back to the house - in a few hours they have lost flavour and texture.
3) Nov 5th was the graft of a religious squabble onto an older tradition of pagan bonfires (equinox?? halloween?? Samhein???? I'm not up on pagan traditions), just as all the Christmas customs have been adapted from pagan midwinter ones.
4) I've notice that whereas in London I remember little boys knocking on doors or sitting outside tube stations with a Guy 'penny for the Guy'. In Kelsall (Cheshire) children used to go Souling, I'm not sure if that was a tradition or a revival when mine were at school - one of the teachers taught them the song. Now it's all Trick or Treat, an imported version of the custom. So maybe it's only us oldies that say 'it's not traditional'. Or maybe it's the begging that is traditional, and how you dress it up is optional.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Musket
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:54 AM

Traditions and transferable begin with the same three letters.

Mmmm...

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:39 AM

you can still find the older heritage varieties of fruit here in the US if you hunt for them.

There are collections of old varieties in the UK and Ireland where you can buy seeds, plants and fruit trees. For example:

Irish Seedsavers

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:02 AM

GUEST,Jon Dudley,

Jon, thanks - got your gist now.

That, incidentally, was a good example of 'borrowed tradition' becoming meaningless when taken from context

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:56 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassail

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:33 AM

Sorry Mr Happy, I seem to be making you Mr Glum ;-) I was merely correcting myself when in my penultimate post I had referred to the 'original poster' in my last sentence...quite forgetting it was you. I should have explained it rather than post that rather enigmatic four word comment. That's all.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 03:50 PM

you can still find the older heritage varieties of fruit here in the US if you hunt for them.   Here the states I can get crispins & seek no furthers, along with a number of the old cider varieties. Though the micro climate has a strong effect on fruit size & quality. Try the organic farms and catalogs.

What is next to impossible to find is blight resistant American chestnuts... sigh.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 03:44 PM

I don't really think there's anything unusual in the popular adoption of alien traditions. Nor do I think it important that the original meaning and purpose is retained. All that matters is that peeps have an excuse to go out get together and have some fun; the addition of some obscure and colourful ritual and paraphenalia just makes things more interesting.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 02:47 PM

I grew up with an orchard behind the house, in what is now South Yorkshire, so it can't be that unusual to have apples in the North - though perhaps rainfall has something to do with it.

Oh, now I have reminded myself of the fruit; there were two plum trees - huge ones, I have never again seen any plums so big, nor tasted anything so delicious, conference pears, and the apples - a variety called Crispin. They were all big trees, not on dwarfing rootstocks - I could climb trees like anything when I was young.

Lord what would I give to be by one of those plum trees when the fruit was ripe - with a good tall ladder.

There's one tradition that will never come back, growing fruit with some taste.   



God bless every good man that has an apple tree.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 02:08 PM

.....and?

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM

You were the original poster!

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 12:40 PM

Neither am I... and most people don't remember it as such here either - merely an excuse to have a fire and some pyrotechnics these days. My point is that it was a tradition (be it a 'religious squabble' or however you care to describe it) transplanted by some settlers in a new (to them) country. It surely had relevance and I suppose the events were not not long ago to them - comparatively. Cobbett was in various places in America between 1792 and 1793. My point is that it was a transferred tradition as per the original posters question. Nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 10:29 AM

The Guy Fawkes thing was a religious squabble.

Not sure of its relevance in America

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:24 AM

From memory, in William Cobbett's 'A Year in New England' I believe he reported Guy Fawkes night being celebrated over there in America. As a 'colony' I suppose it's understandable but I don't know if it lasted.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:11 AM

LOL... I love the tunes as well, but with my dyslexic fingers- I "sing" them.

As for mindset... I get into the song as deeply as a 20th century American gal can. Songs are written by people and I think it is possible come to an understanding through that common humanity. And I do limit my songs to those that I care about.

Probably the reason that there is little popular music that I appreciate is because they don't seem to say anything worthwhile. Give me a great ballad any day... :)

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 05:59 AM

I think we're pretty inclusive over here in the UK on the whole. As I said, I'm not a purist, and a player of traditional tunes rather than a singer of traditional songs. But the reason I play the tunes rather than sing the songs - as I've said many times before on this forum - is that I just don't have the mindset to be an artificial ploughboy! :-)

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 05:40 AM

Being a geek, I do understand the sense of loss that comes with change..

and I have to laugh when at a Renaissance Fair were anachronisms run rampant... especially with the music. How Shakespearean!

Some of the best singers of southern gospel music I know are Jewish friends... being American, I tend towards being inclusive rather than exclusive....

I also feel it is important to understand the original context of a custom but not be limited to that context. Though I do not care for great songs that have been mangled by glee clubs and choral groups... grrr

There's no a single Shaker alive now in the US... but at least their music survives... that is not a bad thing in my estimation.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 05:19 AM

I feel that this custom has become meaningless when taken out from it's original setting & concept

I suppose that this could apply to any singing of songs in a folk club - and I have some sympathy with your view. We used to do an annual "apple howling" evening in our local orchard (Sussex) until a few years ago, where, by firelight, we marched around the orchard singing appropriate songs and drinking various apple-based beverages. And wassailing originated mainly in the cider-producing counties. The orchard was sold and now lies desolate and intended - and fenced off - but the custom was old and suited to the occasion.

Early this year there was a wassail evening in a local folk club - a very pleasant occasion, but not a true wassailing occasion, in my view. Though I'm nowhere near calling myself a folk singer, I also feel it's slightly odd when (for example) shanties are sung in a folk club. I'm not a purist by any means - and many of the songs are great songs, which is reason enough to sing them - but in a weird way it doesn't feel "right' because they're out of context!

Whereas songs sung which tell a straightforward story seem, in a way, more "in context".

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 05:07 AM

That is a very inflexible attitude regarding a very flexible phenomenon, bordering on conservative dogma.

Just as many pagan rituals were co-opted by Christianity and altered their meanings, wassailing has become more secular and centered around good cheer and company... not to mention alcoholic consumption.

Just as the meanings of words change over time, so do other learned human behaviors. It keeps cultural anthropologists, among others, busy trying to trace them over time.

By that attitude, no one other than tall ship sailors have any right to sing sea shanties... or any city dweller singing cowboy or bushranger songs. Way too limiting for me... sorry but I need to disagree with you on this point.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 04:07 AM

Y'all may be wondering why I posed this question.

An acquaintance invited me to a Wassail event locally [NW England]

I queried that Wassailing's not part of tradition in this area & there's no significant apple orchards hereabouts to respond to the coaxing effect of the Wassail.

Response; blank look!

I feel that this custom has become meaningless when taken out from it's original setting & concept

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:54 PM

Traditions don't get invented? That just isn't true much of the time. Perhaps all of the time. Of course there is also a process of modifying the way it's done that ver the years can transform the original invention or importation, and sometimes that invention or importation will have taken place a long time ago.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:37 PM

Sorry, I got sidetracked there. Transferable, absolutely. One excellent example already given. No need for the millions of further examples.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:35 PM

There are, as with many similar terms, no rules or time restrictions applied to this word. Some words just can't be defined down to the nth degree and we should be able to accept that. As long as we have a rough idea what the term means that should be sufficient. Taking it to an opposite extreme, though, we can say that something that is completely new can't be traditional. To try to put a time limit on it other than that is pointless. (IMHO)

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 12:10 PM

I have it heard said that 'twice is always'. Ya know, you make a mistake again and someone is gonna say "You're always doing that".

Which is exactly what Misha says ...tradition is doing something in a certain way (in part) because it was done that way before...

So you do something again and it becomes a tradition; like it is traditional now for me to bake loads of shortbread for the holidays.

And it is traditional for me to bake lardy cake when Lois comes to town.

So if you don't want it to become a tradition, don't do it again.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:16 AM

Regarding to folk music, I'd say "traditional" appears to refer to something that existed two generations ago.

Is that two generations ago from a 20-year-old's viewpoint or an 80-year-old's?

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Mysha
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:30 AM

Hi,

I'd say tradition is doing something in a certain way (in part) because it was done that way before.

Regarding to folk music, I'd say "traditional" appears to refer to something that existed two generations ago.

Bye,
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:55 AM

I heard that tradition is when you can't remember when it started or you prefer not to. E P Thompson in Customs in Common discussed how 'tradition' was often used to assert 'ancient rights' by ancient rites.

I am interested in how quickly appropriation or creation can become entrenched enough to be thought of as tradition.   I've talked to quite a few people this year at our local Sheffield Carols who have adopted them around the country using recordings and books as well as directly from singers.

Should people invent their own customs rather than seek instant legitimacy or is imitation how it all spread anyway?

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:21 AM

I don't think a tradition is invented - it starts off as a why don't we and then is done again because it seemed like good fun, and in a generation it might be a tradition - by which time the neighbours have all joined in because it seems like fun.

What the tradition is might become a matter opinion, and the original perpetrators might not recognise it by the time the second generation comes to take it up, but traditions evolve - and they always seem to go along the lines of being good fun, or getting drunk and similar passtimes.

Subject: RE: Traditions: Transferable?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:30 AM

Without going into an anthropological discourse... traditions are learned. You can have "family tradition" that includes whatever activities occur on a regular basis when family members get together.

Americans adopted the "tradition" of having a Christmas tree instead of a Yule log from the traditions of Germanic immigrants.

How long a tradition will persist is only answered by the passage of time.... though you may expect that the more people who practice the activity, the longer it is likely to survive and spread.

The singing of "Happy Birthday" has become an expected routine at birthday celebration, despite the fact that is still under copyright & ASCAP will extract its pound of flesh from any potential commercial use of the song. Though I suspect that they didn't bother Marilyn Monroe when she sang it for JFK.

Subject: Traditions: Age & Transferability?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:11 AM

I'm unsure for what length of time a ritual occurs before it is regarded as traditional.

Also, if a tradition is invented to represent or commemorate a regional or cultural theme, is it transferable to another area & if so, can it still be regarded as traditional?

Anyone know?