BS: Car insurance confusion

Subject: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:23 PM

I've just been helping my son insure a newish car. I've always used a company that has a tie-up with my union, but his union hasn't any such arrangement, so I decided to see what an online comparison site came up with.

And I was completely astonished by the range of offers. Based on exactly the same information about the car and the driver involved they stretched from under £600 (from a well established company) all the way up to a staggering £3331. And not just one freak result, a whole batch of firms asking that kind of money.

I felt that the name of the comparison site - confused.com - was more than justified. And from now on if a price for anything seems startlingly high I won't go assuming that's the way it is.

But are there really people who pay that kind of money?

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Tangledwood
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:30 PM

Comparisons are not that easy to make. Simply comparing two - does one offer "new for old"?; is towing covered?; is a hire car provided - how long for? There are so many options.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:38 PM

If he is a youngish male, various companies WILL vary a lot on how much they wish to charge that class... considered the greatest risks. After age 30-35, the range is not so great.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Anne Lister
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:41 PM

I've just been amazed for my own renewal just what the differences are. I had been with my broker for over thirty years (initially he was one of the few who could get a reasonable deal for a policy to cover getting to gigs, as long as I was a member of EFDSS or the Scottish Dance society, or something of that sort) and had just assumed he had got me the best deal. When the premium came through this year (on a car in a low insurance group, with no accidents in the past three years or so and me in the prime of driving condition) it was very high, so I started looking. And for precisely the same cover I was astounded by the difference in cost. I didn't go for the cheapest, but went for a company that was recommended by a colleague, and I saved around £450.

Apparently these days it's common for companies to keep increasing the rate to their regular customers and offer cheap deals to newcomers ... but that makes very little sense to me. Oh well. The broker, apparently, didn't have access to these same quotations (but why on earth not?) so I have reluctantly moved away from that company (no longer a single person operation anyway). It feels reckless, but hey, it's saving me money!

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:42 PM

In theory that might be true, Tangledwood, But there appeared to be no significant differences in what was being offered in this case between the companies at both ends of the spread.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:52 PM

Companies which don't want young drivers quote premiums which will deter most, but are the smallest which the insurance company has decided would make them want the business.

Others simply refuse, but that carries the penalty that the driver concerned won't ever consider them in the future.

There is a weird logic to it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:54 PM

It's worth phoning around too - I have to do it every year as I have three Volvos but I can only drive one at any give time so I don't see why the premium should be three times higher than if I only had one. This year I'm doing a one-driver any-car(s) policy from Primo PLC which came in about £600 to £700 which was cheaper than a "multicar policy" from the usual suspects. Last year (or was it the year before?) I had one on a classic policy which was VERY cheap but only because it was very limited mileage and when I had a very minor shunt (eventually split 50/50 but I think that that was a con because the other driver was with Aviva and Aviva were the leaders on my syndicate) the bastards tried to write my 760T off for damage which two people had quoted £50 to fix and the highest quote I had was £380 + VAT. The idiots as their repair centre said it would cost a grand an a half.

Car insurers are thieves.

I have a matter on for a client - his wife stopped to turn right. Two motorcyclists came the other way far too fast and were bad enough riders that rather than go through the gap she had left (large enough to a car to pass but other drivers were giving way to her - and she and the other drivers were stationary) panic braked and fell off without touching any other person or vehicle and then the twats put in a claim against her. And her insurance company (Admiral) in stead of saying "fuck off we are reporting you to the police for fraud" asked her a load of questions that were obviusly intended to enable them to refuse cover - AND doubled the premium on renewal. I've got the premium increase back, and now I'm after the fraudsters for my costs - - - (and I'm STILL trying to get Admiral to flat out say that they reject the claim)

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: gnu
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM

Check such things as deductibles on all of your insurance. I was shocked at the increase in my house insurance this year. Called the agent and simply asked, "How do I get the premium down?" Wellll... you could set your flood deductible to $5000 from $1000 and save $67 dollars. Well, I've been here for 10 years and Mum lived next door for 46 years and we never had a flood. Flood was $15 when I bought the insurance so to find out now it is $67 was a REAL pissoff because that premium price was not detailed in the past three years in the renewal when I reviewed to statements... IN OTHER WORDS... they said "INCLUDED" but didn't actually break it down in the statement. Bastards! SNEAKY, GREEDY bastards!

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:28 PM

"If he is a youngish male," Probably no difference now in regard to sex. Dependent on the start date. At least the gender directive comes into force on Friday but I think many insurers have already changed. Likewise with life insurance, health insurance and pension annuities etc. From Friday it is illegal to discriminate according to sex. Though we still underwrite in regard to people's post-code, age, occupation etc. Why someone's sex should be taken out of the equation seems quite bizarre.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:28 PM

I suppose, given that all insurance is really a form of gambling, we shouldn't be too surprised that the business appeals to quite a lot of very dodgy operators and operations.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:37 PM

By the way... there are companies which ARE cheaper, but who have a reputation for denying many claims and making you work to get a settlement.

(The same thing applies... at least in the US... to 'warranty extenders' for vehicles. If they spend millions on TV ads bragging on how easy it is to get coverage for mechanical problems, be wary.)

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:03 PM

Pay cash for the car.

Insure for liability only.

Place the savings into an account...to purchase another car in ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 03:51 AM

You can find some really low prices on comparison sites but while I wouldn't touch the really cheap ones (pay peanuts etc) they made a good bargening counter with my broker.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM

My husband, a newly qualified driver, was quoted astronomical premiums (thousands of pounds) and he's a middle-aged chap not a boy racer. The only solution was to put him on my insurance as a named driver, and my premiums stayed the same (around £14 per month), BUT the excess shot up to £400. Our poor old 02 Fiesta is hardly worth £400, but at least the Insurance is fully comprehensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 03:26 PM

After age 30-35, the range is not so great.

True, Bill, but I am nearly 60 and my range of premiums was from £500 to over £2000! So the range is not quite as great but still staggering.

Funniest thing I cam acrss was when my son was on my insurance premium. He was unemployed and stayed at home all day on the computer. So I employed him for 10 hours a week to check the computer logs of a company I did business for. He also became director of my own PLC. He still stayed at home all day on the computer but they wanted to put my premiums up by £200 becuase he was now a company director which is, apparanly, a high risk occupation. When I told them I would take my business elsewhere they agreed to remove the extra premium as 'a gesture of goodwill'. Modern day highwaymen! Anyone written a song?

Bold Allied Insurance is my name
And robbing motorists is my game
It was my devious slieght of hand
That cost the unwary an extra grand...


:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Anne Lister
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 04:44 PM

The dialogue with my broker's clerk, before I started shopping around, was actually very funny to those of us who know the business we're in. I'd dealt with the day job and said that in addition I played some music gigs.
"What sort of music?" she asked. "Folk", I said. "Have you had any chart hits?" she asked. I laughed. "Do you know any celebrities?" she asked. I laughed again. "Have you ever given any celebrities a ride in your car?" Eventually we moved on to my husband. "He's an actor" I said, just waiting for it. "Has he been in any big movies?" she asked. I laughed. Well, he was, briefly, but ended on the cutting floor (I didn't bother telling her that as I don't think she was asking for artistic satisfaction). "Does he know any celebrities?" ....
It turns out that the reason they inflate the premiums for us performers isn't about drink and drugs or coming home late at night, which is what I'd always assumed. It's because if we have a celebrity in the car with us and he/she gets injured it will cost them more to sort out.
Just as well we're folkies, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: gnu
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 04:59 PM

guest... Insure for liability only.

You missed... drive carefully and slowly. I drive 5kph under the speed limit in town and 10kph under the speed limit on highways. I drive slower on ice, rain and snow.

Trust me.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 05:41 PM

I used to sell insurance. The Man from the Pru.
Most companies would be happy to make a 15% annual return on Motor Insurance.
They work on experience. Statistics.

The absolute minimum motor cover in the UK is (or was in 1980) Public Liability, which covers you for INJURY ONLY claims against you. If you slide your banger up the side of a Roller, you are on your own. (Many reputable companies won't offer this.)
Next level is Third Party, Fire, and Theft, which also covers liability. Covers the other party if it is your fault. Not you.
Top level is Comprehensive. There is also glass cover, which means that if you chip or crack you windscreen, it doesn't come off the excess.
The Excess is an amount that YOU have to pay (first) in any claim.
Your insurance is VOID if the driver is affected by drink or drugs, or the car is not legal, i.e. untaxed or no MOT. This can be a trap!
The insurance is finished if they write the car off. Even if it has only just been paid.
You have to make a decision based on the factors.
My information is well out of date.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:21 AM


Your insurance is VOID if the driver is affected by drink or drugs, or the car is not legal, i.e. untaxed or no MOT. This can be a trap!

The police can confiscate a vehicle on the spot if it isn't properly insured.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:24 AM

And crush it if you don't turn up with the dosh, including the fine and storage charge. Quite right too, no-one should be zooming about uninsured.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 07:18 AM

The biggest problem with Car Insurance is the proliferation of Claims Management Companies , who go out of their way to inflate ANY insurance pay out , thus forcing premiums uo every year .
ESPECIALLY hire car charges , if your old banger is off the road ! No matter WHAT car you drive , they will initially offer something like a Mercedes at OODLES a week .

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 08:12 AM

All kinds of odd things about insurance - one thing I hadn't realised untilit affected me was that when an insurace company says a car isn't worth the cost of repairs and writes it off, that needn't be the end of the story.   

A few years ago I had my car vandalised while it was parked - door panels dented and so forth. It was mechanically unaffected, and I don't much care about looks in a car, so when the insurance company said it was a write-off because of the cost of all teh panel beating, I used the money to patch it up. I then reinsured it with the same company, after an MOT, and drove it happily for some years until it died.

I've just done a check on my current insurers, and found to my satisfaction that what I'm paying, to a company that has always treated me very fairly, is pretty close to the low end of the range - and the high quotes for precisely the same level of cover is literally ten times what I'm paying.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:26 AM

""Pay cash for the car.

Insure for liability only.

Place the savings into an account...to purchase another car in ten years.""

Doesn't work in the UK.

Insurance companies these days consider the owners of old bangers who ask for "Third Party", or "Third Party Fire and Theft" (Liability only) to be more of a risk.

As a result, most UK companies charge almost as much as for Fully Comprehensive, and some charge even more.

Any saving you do make is not worth the risk of losing your car without compensation.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:33 PM

Ooh, my line of work.

Just so y'all know, motor insurance in the UK is unprofitable as an industry and has been for several years and at the rate it's going, probably will be for a while. Insurers pay more in claims than they take in, mostly due to (a) young idiots and (b) liability settlements getting larger and larger.

The reason companies sometimes quote silly premiums is they want to balance the policyholders by age, sex, claims history, etc. If you fall into a group they don't want to take on more exposure to, you get the silly numbers. It's not personal, even if it feels like it.

Not every company can tailor their policies to you. If you're a company director that pootles down to the shops once a week, sorry, but you're an unusual company director and some companies will charge you an unfair premium for it.

Third party only cover is, for some risk classes, as expensive or even more expensive than fire & theft and occasionally even comp, the reason being that the kind of person willing to risk only being partly covered is more likely to crash.

Best tip is to use the comparison sites, but then phone round a few companies - especially Direct Line - and tell them what quotes you've got. And don't lie. Insurers want to pay valid claims but there is so much fraud out there that they have to cover their backs aggressively.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:15 PM

Be warned. Keep recordings of all conversations with Direct Line. My late wife told them on the phone about a minor speeding ticket. Whena truck reversed into her car in a carpark, Direct line pretended that she had not done so and tried to disclaim liability for non-disclosure. Fortunately she had a contemporaneous written record.

Yes there are some young idiots (I always wonder how they manage to get a lowered Nova with a 6 inch exhaust upside down and backwards into a ditch on a sweeping road with a 40 limit that I can comfortably do at hello ossifer in a standard 25 year old Volvo) but surely the biggest problem is the prevalence of whiplash fraud, claims farmers, and a failure to stand up to fraudulent claims (as I previously indicated).

The flaming portal and its protocols is a farce.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 08:25 AM

If it comes down to your word against theirs on an issue like that, Richard, simply put in a written complaint and if they don't sort it, follow it up with the Ombudsman. They take a dim view of declining for minor non-disclosure, especially if the claim is unrelated.

Although fraud in all its many forms is a massive expense, it's the kids that really drive it. Even with the massive premiums the kids get charged, they are still getting cross-subsidised by older drivers. A carful of dead or seriously disabled kids is be an expensive settlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Anne Lister
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 07:22 PM

None of which explains why a company I had been with for years decided to raise my premiums year after year until this year it was so ridiculously high the cost led to me hunting out a better deal for myself. I cannot for the life of me understand why any company would behave this way to a loyal customer - and one who is in a "safe" age group, part of a "safe" gender group (although I understand this distinction has now gone - but it hadn't then), living in a "safe" area, driving a car in a low insurance group with no modifications with a pretty damn good driving record. They want to lose their good, safe customers? Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Gurney
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 08:33 PM

Anne, possibly because they want to get out of motor insurance.
As Guest Rev and I both said, they don't get very much profit out of it, and in some cases regard it as a service to their life insurance customers. Do you also have other insurance with them, such as life/household/mortgage protection/business liability?

I have all my insurance with a reliable Co., who have treated my fairly for about 30 years, and I have a respectable claims record. Their premiums are going up seriously, though. They took a proper towelling with the Christchurch earthquake, as did some international re-insurers.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 01:54 PM

The insurance company is a big concern in the world of insurance, so I'd be surprised if it was an attempt to get out of motor insurance. Perhaps the broker wants out and so doesn't bother too much - which would make sense of the fact that their alternative offer to me with another company was still considerably more than I've finally paid (and that wasn't the bottom offer available).
No, I don't have other policies with that company, but they didn't ask that question at any point so I don't think it was relevant.
Still puzzled. Normally a solid customer base is important to any company.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 05:40 PM

I've stuck with my 'union' deal for some years now. It's crept up but not alarmingly. I get, they say, protected full no claims for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 08:42 AM

If a company wants to get out of motor insurance why not just do that directly instead of by playing silly games?

Comparison sites seem a good idea anyway. But I wonder if there a comparison site of comparison sites? And then you could have a comparison site of those... That way lies an infinite regression.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 11:17 AM

I think Which did a review of just that not long ago! (UK readers)
http://www.which.co.uk/money/bills-and-budgeting/guides/price-comparison-sites/

And on most sites you can do a comparison of cover for up to 4 different quotes or set your fields by specifying which forms of cover are important to you - e.g. free car while yours is being repaired (tho' even that nmay come with the rider that it's somethig much smaller than what you normally drive!)

Anne has already mentioned the occupation snag: some companies would not insure my son as a postgraduate student, tho' as a probationer teacher he was OK. And previously he was quoted more as a sports instructor than as a leisure centre attendant (same job!)

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 04:11 PM

Anne and McGrath, perhaps I should have said 'Want to get YOU out of THEIR motor insurance.'

Some companies, as I said, regard 'motor' as a service to their 'life' customers, which is why I asked if Anne had further business with them.
That's what I was told when I started as an insurance agent, long ago.

If you read into Tattie's last paragraph, they have delved into their claims experience to cost their pricing. I had a small book of graphs covering age, occupation, and claims records, to work out the 'quote,' and even then, they would sometimes adjust their price for reasons I wasn't privy to. Always upwards. Always Not Negotiable.

You also carry your claims record from insurer to insurer, and you certainly get what you pay for, in the event. Some insurers are tight-fisted with repairers, to the extent that some repairers won't work on vehicles that those companies insure!

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 04:15 PM

I don't know.   Tell me-- Car insurance confusion;   does it begin after solstice?   

I would have thought it might begin beforehand.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 04:31 PM

Long before, Ron. About 2mins after 16th birthday, in my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 04:32 PM

Sorry. That was motorcycle insurance. 17th birthday for car insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 05:18 PM

Late as usual, sorry.

Anne, the reason your premiums kept going going up is you paid them. People who stay with an insurer for several years are likely to stay even if you jack up prices. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, they are desperate for revenue whatever the source, including loyal customers. The rule with insurers is, treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen.

Subject: RE: BS: Car insurance confusion
From: Rog Peek
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 08:51 AM

Last year I telephoned my car insurance company (very well known internet co.)to say my wife and I would be out of the country for the period from when the renewal notice arrived and payment would be due and was told my best bet would be to arrange a new policy to start from the date the old one expired. I received a quote for this but did not arrange it imediately as it was suggested that it was likely that this would be more expensive than if I just renewed my existing policy.

It transpired that my wfe would after all be returning to England before the renewal date and so we left it that she would renew on returning. When she arrived home and opened the renewal, it was more expensve than if we had arranged the new policy. She contacted them and explained what had transpired and was given a new renewal premium which was cheaper than either of the other two.

Does make you wonder!

Rog