BS: US : UK gun statistics

Subject: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST,rewind
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM

5:1    - ratio of the population of the USA compared to the UK
8000:1 - ratio of the number of gun deaths USA (31,500) to UK (39) per year

500 USA gun deaths SINCE THE SANDY HOOK SCHOOL KILLINGS (9 days ago) - that's over 10 times the UK yearly average in just over a week....

(Source - Independent on Sunday)

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 01:44 PM

If you believe NRA If we were allowed to carry concealed weapons in UK, the UK level would be substantially reduced, possibly as low as the US level!

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 03:07 PM

Interactive gun ownership and gun murder homicide map of the world. From the Guardian last week.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: kendall
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 03:35 PM

Let's all move to Antarctica.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:58 PM

AUSTRALIA IS PRETTY GOOD

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST,rewind
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 07:04 AM

"AUSTRALIA IS PRETTY GOOD" - apart from Tasmania (according to my cousin who lived there and described it as the New Wild West)

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: Musket
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 07:11 AM

Reading the speech by the bloke from NRA earlier.

It doesn't say much about the quality of politicians over there if this loser has them jumping to his command.

Land of the free?

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: kendall
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 07:13 AM

America used to be the land of the free and the home of the brave. One out of two aint bad.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 08:30 AM

the statistics speak for themselves. if the guns are around, the nutters will get their hands on them somehow. and there too may nutters to take the chance of having guns around. I'm sure England has more bonkers people than America. This is the home of the Jeremy Kyle Show.

I think you just have to face facts ian. They don't like these school shootings, but it doesn't bother them enough to want to have a different sort of society, where gun owning isn't a right. or if it is a right - the people who exercise that right must be viewed with deep suspicion.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST,rewind
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 09:24 AM

Big Al - Jerry Springer started it...........

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 10:08 AM

Gun owning IS a right. The supreme court and the constitution says so.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: alex s
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 10:52 AM

The 2nd Amendment was intended to keep an armed militia ready in case we Brits came back. Don't think you need worry about that now.

So you don't really need millions of guns, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 11:14 AM

I think Springer people are just sort of histrionic.

The jeremy kyle folk (on the english show) genuinely want to kill each other, and its only our gun laws that stand between them and us. I think jk in America draws it pretty mild. Most of the people there would be taken care of by a basic system of social security, and not need Jeremy.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 01:22 PM

Ain't you Brits this time, Alex - its them Radical Islamists trying to impose Sharia Law across the U.S. and them Radical Socialist Communists like Obama trying to destroy capitalism and them Mexicans trying to take all the jobs and them uppity Nigras trying to make like they're the equal of white folks and them Femi-Nazis and them jack-booted minions of our own government trying to enslave us and them secular humanists destroying Christianity.............man, our enemies are around every corner & under every bed..............

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: alex s
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM

Well, Greg F, sounds as if your probs are just like ours, with Scots hoodlums trying to destroy the UK, Geordie subversives ruining our language, Cornish pixies casting spells, plus the unspeakable Welsh with their pagan tongue and appalling food. Oh, and A TORY GOVERNMENT......

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 02:08 PM

Greg F, you nailed it!

Anyway, I've done my part; I called my friend, Congresswoman Pingree and insisted she vote to eliminate ALL automatic and semi auto guns.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 04:25 AM

"Gun owning IS a right. The supreme court and the constitution says so."

So you are saying that gun owning is a greater human right that that of kids being able to go to scholl without fear of being massacred?????

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 04:58 AM

There are different kinds of "rights" (sometimes called "entitlements").

Some are innate - the right to life being one. Some are created or codified in a legal system.

The former depend on our view of the human condition (and are sometimes criticised or lauded as "human rights"). They may or may not be recognised or codified in a legal system. Consider slavery by way of example.

It is therefore clear that legal rights can be and sometimes ought to be changed. The method by which that can be done depends on the constitutional structure of the jurisdiction involved. It is therefore idle and unconstructively contentious to say that gun ownership is a right merely because the US constitution and the US Supreme Court say so , and it is equally an imprecise ellipsis to do so in the terms above. Such "rights" must eventually change when they collide with innate ones - just as the right not to be enslaved became a legal right and the right to own slaves ceased to be part of a right to own property.

The restriction of legal rights to own bear and use "arms" must eventually come about (as must the use of the death penalty be restricted) because both conflict with the right to life, an innate right. And as light dawns it must sooner or later become clear that a restriction on legal rights to own bear and use high-killing-capacity firearms can only be a first step.

I am very worried that even if that comes about, too many will see it as the only step, and the next step may never be taken.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 05:24 AM

It seems that many of those who know, and are prepared to take all possible steps to defend, their Rights seem to have scant regard for their Responsibilities. In any civilised society, the latter must surely trump the former?

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: kendall
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 07:52 AM

SPB here is where trouble starts. Guest did not say that. read it again.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 11:29 AM

The first line is a ct an paste of Guest's post/

The second line is my take on what rights should have precedence.

To paraphrase - in my view human rights are inalienble, anything else is a liberty which society can be enabled or revoked . their have been many liberties that have been revoked, either because they contravine human rights - eg slave ownership, or because they offend common decency.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: pdq
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 12:01 PM

Here are some numbers on suicide. They come from suicide .org and seem higher than some other sources, but...

          Mexico             7 / 100,000

          Gt. Britain       10 / 100,000
         
          U. S.                18 / 100,000

          Japan               36 / 100,000

Most gun deaths in the U. S. are suicide.

Japan and Mexico have virtually complete bans on private gun ownership.

Worldwide suicide rate is 16 / 100,000...essentially the same as the U. S.

Just some stuff to think about.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: alex s
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 12:12 PM

someone's missing the point here.....

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: pdq
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 12:54 PM

Here we go with "son of fun with numbers"...

Gun deaths per 100,000 per year:

                  United Kingdom               0.25            0.04          0.17

                  Canada                           4.78         0.76             3.72                           

                  United States                10.2             3.7             6.1

Anyway, it is about 40X that of Gt. Britain, not 500X as the initial post claims.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: alex s
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 01:07 PM

pdq, what does this table mean? headings would help.
I note you have no stated source, unlike Guest rewind.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 01:20 PM

The USA has serious litigation issues.

From a product named 'Wonderful Pistachios':

On the package front below Wonderful Pistachios is Roasted Unsalted Pistachios. Au verso one can find nutrition facts and just below that is the heading, Ingredients: Roasted pistachios. And just below that is the Allergy Warning: Contains pistachio nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: pdq
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 02:00 PM

My 12.54 post is total gun deaths, followed by murder and third number is suicide.

Note from my posts that over 55% of U. S. gun deaths are suicide.

Japan seems to manage twice the U. S. suicide rate with virtually no guns at all.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 02:56 PM

So, if I rad that correctly, the US murder rate using guns is (roughly) 100 times that of the UK - and you seem to think that that makes a case against gun control?

Only in AMerica.

Oh, btw - WHERE DID YOUR ALLEGED STATS COME FROM?

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: alex s
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 04:32 PM

"Oh, btw - WHERE DID YOUR ALLEGED STATS COME FROM?"

I noted that too, but it was not answered (see above)

Put your source where your mouth is, pdq.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: pdq
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 04:42 PM

The source fot the 12.01 post numbers are in the first sentence:

"Here are some numbers on suicide. They come from suicide.org and seem higher than some other sources, but..."

The other post is in plain sight on Wikipedia.

You must have the motivation to look if you have any hope of finding the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 05:11 PM

Suicide stats on murder. Fascinating. Herring. Red. If you want to make a case, make it.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: alex s
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 07:09 PM

pdq - you are talking bollocks, my friend.
Get some REAL facts, buddy

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: pdq
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 08:07 PM

What's absurd is the inclusion suicide in the "death by gun" figures, at least as they apply to violent crime.

The suicide.org numbers were chosen because they are "real world" numbers.

Easier to take pills than shoot yerseff.

Japan has twice the suicide rate as the US and they have no guns.

As I understand, Richard Farina had a drunken fight with his wife, stomped out of the house and fired up his motorcycle.

He run the speed up 90 mph and aimed the bike directly at a conctete brigde abuttment.

Death ruled a suicide? Of course not, but it was.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 08:30 PM

The usual PeeDee bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: US : UK gun statistics
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM

I wholeheartedly agree with the banning of rapid-fire,multi-shot , military-style weapons , and cannot understand why any normal , sane person would want to own such a thing.However , I have always been interested in firearms , and their history and developement , and have enjoyed owning & using shotguns all my life.Therefore I can well understand why some people would like to continue to enjoy the "right" to own & use shotguns and rifles for hunting ,clay (and real !) pigeon shooting , pest control,and ,indeed, particularly in the case of beautifully crafted , top-of-the-range models ,for purely aesthetic reasons.I would not , here in the UK, support the ownership of pistols ,other than actually AT a registered gun-club,as they are much more likely to be used (or stolen ) by the insane, the disturbed, and those of a criminal disposition.
               In the case of the United States , I do not think that any really radical changes in the existing legislation would be acceptable , other than a total ban on all machine-guns,sub-machine guns , and "assault" -rifles.A handgun ban would probably be a step too far ,although ownership of "black powder" and muzzle-loading- pistols- only might be acceptable ; I don't really know. We have had the most Draconian gun-control legislation imaginable imposed on the British public since the 1920s , but this hasn't stopped criminals and lunatics from obtaining and using firearms , so what chance is there in the USA ???