BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 08:12 PM

Idle No More Protests Continue Across Canada - (some lovely photos in here)


The Guardian - Canada's Indigenous People Are Demanding a Better Deal

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 12:11 AM

"The point is that numerous people from Hussein to the Taliban have threatened to bring the west to it's knees."

Ed, you seem to be thinking linearly and narrowly, no offence. Neither that real-dead mf nor the Taliban said that. What they did say is that the west would 'be brought to its knees'. Neither said by whose hands. So far, the west is doing a good job bringing ITself to its knees.

"To regard the fundamental as the essence, to regard things as coarse, to regard accumulation as deficiency, and to dwell quietly alone with the spiritual and the intelligent -- herein lie the techniques of Tao of the ancients."

One man in a shit hole of a house tied up American intelligence for ten effin years. Yippee, he's dead, and yea for SEAL Team Six. So, what was the cost? One hundred million in direct costs and another thousand millions in ancilliary costs and another ten times that in real cash? Fuckin' spare me. Could have been taken care of with $50,000 years back--2000-2004.

Ain't my money, so really I don't give a shit, and it wasn't yours either, but the game goes on, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 03:37 AM

It was me Bruce - Not Ed. But the point is, surely, not how they are saying it but the fact that it is a threat? That is the point I am trying to make anyway. No ammount of posturing or sabre-rattling is worth once ounce of round the table peace talks.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 03:40 AM

Yes, 'twas I. Must remember that the downstairs computer gets cleared of cookies on a daily basis!

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 07:51 AM

Sorry, Ed. Thanks, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 07:55 AM

The point IS that they should not even be having to do this in the first place. They have *tried* sitting round tables. Sadly, it has got them nowhere...

It is NOT their fault that they have been lied to for centuries. Take it up with those who have done the lying.


Taken from the Guardian link, above.

"....Many claim that the best route for indigenous people is to assimilate and to be "just like every other Canadian." But since the 15th century nothing has worked, and indigenous peoples are fed up of being told what to do, where to do it and how to do it. The imprint of colonialism has left land claims, treaty negotiations, reserve infrastructure, indigenous poverty, and indigenous education equality in total disarray. Let's not even mention the intergenerational impact of the residential school system, which forcibly removed indigenous children from their homes and stripped them of their language and culture and left many vulnerable to physical and sexual abuse....."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/11/canada-indigenous-people-demand-better-deal

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 09:01 AM

No problem 999, but, it does not resemble a position I would put forward:)

As to Hussein and the Taliban (if they can, or should be lumped together), they surely have gotten the attention of alot of powerful people, (especially the USA) and cost them alot in many ways - and I suspect those costs will extend into tomorrow.

Unfortunately, Canada spent billions in initiatives related to these folks. These billions (IMO) could have been effective in solving some pressing problems at home,like the one at issue today.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 10:15 AM

I agree in part. We have been throwing money at it and it hasn't worked. We know there is a wrong taking place, as you, Liz, Dave, gnu, ollaimh and others have repeatedly pointed out. As we saw, the various problems on this or that reserve change from one reserve to another. I don't know how many reserves there are in Canada; couldn't even guess. The ten or so I've been on at one time or other were as different as each new town one goes to. And the 'problems' in each are just not the same. In short, there is not a single or 'one size fits all' solution. But one thing I do know: Indians ain't stupid. There are some fine minds in the mix but altogether too many young people being tossed on the scrap heap because management is so screwed up. Yes, the 'residential school system' run mostly by Anglicans and Catholics was abhorrent. I think many of us could tell stories we heard from elders about the gut-wrenching breakup of family units, one result of which is the inability of too many children to communicate, except at the most fundamental level, with their grand parents. One speaks their language and the other has a shaky grasp on English or French. I do not pretend to have the answers, but I do know I can be part of the solution by forcing my government to treat in good faith. This heavy-handed and illegal crap forced through by the Conservatives in C-38 and C-45 is disgusting legislation. I may not be my brother's keeper, but goddammit we share the same canoe, and let there be no mistake about that. Many Indian people have pointed out that these Bills are detrimental to ALL of us. This country should NOT be for sale to the fucking oil companies, the Chinese, De Beers. This place does NOT belong to us to sell. We keep it for our kids and their kids. We have found a clear path to screw up the most beautiful country in the world, bar none. We need to slam the door on that kind of thinking, or our children will slam the door on their memories of us. I can't say I'd blame them.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:05 AM

It is not hard to find problems anywhere, 999. But, it's much harder to find the solutions, and even harder to get people to agree to them and how they can be resolved (even on this site).

I believe the native groups have done a good job at drawing public and government awareness and attention to their plight. However, IMO, it is time to put equel attention to defining an accomplishable solution. Maybe a "one size fit's all" solution is not an answer. But, if not, it is up to those directly involved to focus and define the solutions, unless they want others to do that for them (which has not seemed to have been very productive in the past).

While I expect public sympathies lies with resolving these issues for those in the native communities, such support can be "fickle", and be just as easily lost. My perspectiv is it is in the best interests of the native community to focus on bridging the internal divides (which exist for some of the reasons you state)and come forward with reasonable solutions and a process to initiate them.

As often stated, many of the problems go back many years. So, it is unlikely that making progress to resolve them all will likely not happen over-night. But, that does not mean there can not be a current focus on the more urgent in the short term and longer term plan to tackle the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:10 AM

Gotcha, and I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:26 AM

""Gotcha, and I agree""
Earlier you referred to a folk song for a message.
I refer to the lyrics of one for a message also:



Turn! Turn! Turn! (to Everything There Is a Season)
by The Byrds

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, turn
And a time for every purpose under heaven...

...A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time to love, a time to hate
A time of peace, I swear it's not too late!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

But, it's much harder to find the solutions, and even harder to get people to agree to them and how they can be resolved

Spot on, Ed. And at the risk of sounding like a stuck record just use history to see which methods pay off and which don't. Threats and terrorism have never done as well as reconcilliation and peace.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

999
In an early post in this thread, I questioned if the current native movement had defined "success", and would recognize the opportunity for success when it was at hand. I still have that question.

Hopefully, the personal gratification of being part of "the group effort" does not overtake the original reasons for it occuring and identifying and seizing the best opportunity for success for themselves, when it raises its head. There are indeed issues that go beyond the native issues, and likely sympathies for the plight of other Canadians. IMO, a first priority shoul be to take care of their own issues, and there will be opportunities to support others with their issues when that is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:44 AM

DTG,
I am not sure I agree with your historic assessment.

Sometimes, the threat (and fear) of agressive actions alone moves "the center" (and those in power) towards a resolution and creates new opportunities for others, those open and well-positioned to a new (and peaceful) avenues towards a solution. However, I agree that it is indeed rare for governments to voluntarily directly "cave in" to terrorists or those threating such actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:57 AM

Good question, Ed. I think when Spence started her hunger strike--define it how you will--her idea was to get Harper and the GG to meet with native leaders. In that she was successful. However, many others folks got involved and brought with them their agendas. I haven't read any news today but I expect the same 'reporters' will be spinning what they saw, heard, think or wish to propound. Too many cooks . . . We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 12:01 PM

999
I have always have had an interest in approaches that obtain social change.

With this interest, a few years back I met a retired government official, one who had a lead government role in dealing with a major social uprising on an issue. I questioned him on how it evolved, his role and how it ended up.

He said that major public protests, that got "big media attention" was actually useful to the government. I was surprised and asked him how that could be. He said that people focusing on publically protesting took the energy out of the movement and once it "petered out" (those involved were comforted that they had, done something that seemed significant on TV) there was little energy and focus left for the actual negotiations. He said, those reduced pressures left us "government folks" with more "wiggle room" to initiate less severe measures with the movement leaders.

That conversation has remained with me, and the message that sometimes, what seems to be happening may not be what is occuring at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 11:40 AM

omnibus bill

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 01:55 PM

The CBC website has an interesting story about Matthew Coon Come's advice to Chief Spence; in effect, be careful to make demands that the government can grant without losing too much face. Insisting on the active participation of the Governor General is not one of those demands, for it would cause constitutional angst that will draw attention away from the First Nations' primary agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 04:26 PM

CBC
Quebec Grand Chief calls on Spence to end hunger strike

CTV
mulcair-calls-on-spence-to-end-hunger-strike

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 05:43 PM

At this point Spence can ask, "In exchange for what?"

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:05 PM

Settlements like Attawapiscat can exist only with government handouts and royalty payments, much of which is mis-spent and is not accounted for.
Nothing they can make, sell or produce can pay for the housing, schools, health care and other infrastructure needed to keep them viable.

The solutions are unpopular, but must be faced by the peoples of these outlying settlements and the government.

I think, however, the muddling along will continue despite the rhetoric and stunts like the so-called hunger strike. Calls on the British crown are nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM

""At this point Spence can ask, "In exchange for what?""

IMO, it is puzzling that Spence seems to be stuck on the notion that the Govenor General (appointed by Harper to representing the Queen) actually has political power and influence in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:36 PM

For argument's sake, let's say, the government in power, through direct negotiations with the Assembly of First Nations (the only group that seems to have any chance of representing all the groups), agreed to deal with all the demands derectly related to Native issues (even giving them special consultation provisions on enviromental issues impacting their lands). I suspect that even this may not satisfy Spence, and some of her supporters. Nor would it satisfy many within the "Idle No More" movement (well, at least as stated in the attached article) - which seem to go far beyond demands related to native issues. The movement, made up of a variety of interests, some from beyond native ones, seems to be challenging the current elected majority government's right to govern. Can that element be sustainable, once if the native isues are on tract to some form of solution?


idle-no-more-co-founder-supports-spence-not-blockades

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 10:51 PM

You might like this one, Charmion.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 06:58 AM

Har, har, Dabit.

Yes indeed, the federal government flings money around like sailors on a Friday night on Barrington Street. Drunk sailors know what they're doing at some level and sober up eventually, however; governments, well, not so much.

Pot and kettle, pot and kettle.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:05 AM

That really is how to get back at them :-) Thanks for the link and the laugh, Dabit.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:35 AM

Two different perspectives from topday's news:


Winnipeg Free press

Michael Harris

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:51 AM

Other perspectives:


Hill Times

National Post


From the Globe and Mail (this paper does not link well)

Harper needs to stay the course in winter of native discontent JOHN IBBITSON

The Globe and Mail
Monday, Jan. 14 2013,

Public support for the Harper government in the weeks ahead will hinge on how well it handles the native protests that threaten to escalate this week.

Thus far, the Conservatives have gotten the big things right, by ignoring peaceful demonstrations and engaging with the responsible leadership in order to marginalize extremists. That is about what Canadians expect from their government at times like this.

The militant tendency within the native movement is vowing a day of action Wednesday that could block roads, bridges and rail lines in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and elsewhere. There are other protests planned for Jan. 28, when Parliament resumes.

The opposition parties have already staked their ground: The native protests, they maintain, are rooted in centuries of injustice compounded by Conservative intransigence.

"It is not a comedy of errors but it's a tragedy of errors that we find ourselves in this situation today," Interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae maintained. Both the NDP and Liberals insist Mr. Harper must deal swiftly and substantively with native claims.

But public expectations are low. Last summer, Nanos Research and the Institute for Research on Public Policy produced a study that rated major issues by two criteria: how important a policy challenge was to the public, and how confident the public was that government could meet the challenge.

First nations issues ranked at the very bottom in both public importance and in public confidence that government could make things better.

While the Idle No More Movement and Chief Theresa Spence's hunger strike may have increased the importance of native issues for most Canadians, it is unlikely they are any more confident that anything can be done. Mr. Nanos described that attitude as a sense of "public-policy futility."

Of course the Harper government is, like all governments, most interested in keeping its own supporters onside. The Conservative coalition consists, in part, of rural voters in Ontario and voters in the West apart from downtown Vancouver. These voters tend to be impatient with native demands for greater control over land and resources.

The other part of the coalition consists of suburban immigrant voters in Ontario. Most of them come from places such as India, the Philippines and China, which also suffered colonial oppression. They are themselves the children of the dispossessed.

While they may empathize with native Canadians, most immigrant Canadians are willing, even eager, to integrate into Canadian society. It would hardly be surprising in that case if they had only limited empathy for native claims to land and sovereignty, and little sense of collective responsibility for the poverty on many reserves.

Remember: There are roughly 370,000 first nations living on reserves. About 250,000 immigrants, almost all from non-European societies, arrive in Canada every year. Time is not on the natives' side.

Mr. Harper also knows that he faces a divided opposition. Native leaders who are unhappy with National Chief Shawn Atleo's willingness to negotiate with the Harper government are challenging his leadership of the Assembly of First Nations.

Again, politically, this works to the Prime Minister's advantage. If Mr. Harper can demonstrate that he takes native demands seriously and that he can and will work with Mr. Atleo and the AFN, then there will be little public sympathy for the militants.

The wild card is anarchy. If the chiefs opposing Mr. Atleo and the Idle No More activists escalate their demonstrations to the point where there is risk of violence or serious economic disruption, then the federal government will have to be firm in enforcing the rule of law.

But that is exactly the moment at which events can spiral out of control: Oka; the Dudley George shooting. Then no one can predict what will happen.

Short of that, if the Harper government stays the current course, then the Conservative coalition of support should hold and the government should emerge from this winter of native discontent in reasonable shape – politically, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 11:19 AM

Looking at the Globe article…

Disregarding treaties with First Nations, telling them that we've destroyed you to the point that you are not important and that we will continue to overwhelm the remnants of your civilizations with immigrants now that we, aging Euro-descendants, have rusting gonads, appears to be closer to the problem than to an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 12:09 PM

"rusting gonads"

Defective easy-bake ovens is just as likely as factor for consideration, as Xy's shooting blanks. Regardless, what may seem to be rust from afar, may be a potent and reddish Viking or Irishman, on closer examination.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 02:24 PM

""I worked with Freud in Vienna. We broke over the concept of penis envy. Freud felt that it should be limited to women"". Movie quote, Leonard Zelig: Movie, Zelig

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 02:48 PM

> what may seem to be rust from afar, may be a potent and reddish Viking or Irishman, on closer examination.

Don't ask me to examine that red thing close up. I was thinking about our disfunctional relationships and apparatus - not blanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 03:08 PM

Just remember, rust never sleeps.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 03:44 PM

As to rust, red haired peoples, freckles and relationships (disfunctional or otherwise):

"In 999, the Viking king of Dublin, Sitric Silkenbeard, surrendered to Brian Boru. In 1014, High King Brian Boru of Munster defeated the allied army of the Vikings and the King of Leinster at Clontarf. Thus ends Ireland's Viking Era".

The Viking era ended in Ireland - (or did it?) No treaties were signed. But, the Viking "red" pumps in Irish veins. Viking "rust" never sleeps, in Ireland, or where the Irish roam.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 09:06 PM

Ed... red... Irish... Viking... Celt... now, there is a story about indigenous peoples trod upon. A thousand years old and as worth discussing as the story in this thread* but just saying that will get me in shit once again. Of course, I am used to it.

Scottei!

Slainte Mhath.

*Difference is, this thread is all about something that can be changed for the better TODAY. Too bad it gets bogged down in bullshit and granstanding by people who ain't got a fucking clue what they are yelling about and can't hear anyone else while they are yelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 09:25 PM

I thought that may awaken your Irish genie, gnu:)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 01:03 PM

"A new documentary by renowned filmmaker Alanis Obomsawin, The People of the Kattawapiskak River, exposes the housing crisis faced by 1,700 Cree in Northern Ontario. The dire situation led Attawapiskat's band chief, Theresa Spence, to ask the Canadian Red Cross for help. With the Idle No More movement making front page headlines, this film provides background and context for one aspect of the growing crisis. This film will stream free of charge until Friday, January 18, 2013."

The People of the Kattawapiskak River

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:04 PM

From CBC:Michaëlle Jean says Theresa Spence should end hunger strike
'We have a Third World in Canada, and it's with our aboriginal peoples,' Jean says ""Jean agreed there have been some encouraging initiatives, but said she's hoping that a "real dialogue" will come to fruition. She said Canadians must to be more aware of the situation. Instead of waiting for people to start protesting in the streets, the public must be more proactive. "It's not an aboriginal issue, it's a Canadian issue," she said.

As for the Idle No More movement, Jean said she was discouraged to see the situation become so chaotic.""

Canada's Former GG weighs in


Commentary from National Post (""Sen. Patrick Brazeau was born in Maniwaki, Quebec, and is a member of the community of Kitigan Zibi. A champion of the rights of aboriginal peoples, he worked with the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples (CAP) from 2001. He was was elected National Chief in February 2006, and re-elected to a four-year term in November 2008"").


From National Post

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:48 PM

Native people should have to account for money given them.

When Miss Spence was allowed to distribute $101,000,000 since 2007 and cannot account for 86% of it, why is she allowed to touch a single dollar more?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 06:00 PM

Mind you, the auditor-general has seldom had a good word to say for the way the Feds handle our exchequer. The chief of Ottawapiskat may be less trustworthy than the chief of Attawapiskat.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 07:43 PM

BTP, Most governments (provincial, federal and even municipalities) have an arms-length auditor-general (or similar) and a process to openly expose such spending flaws to those paying the bills - so they can be objectively considered and (hopefully) rectified at some point in time - or, in one manner or another.

My recollection is that the federal government in power responds to the AG report on such problems identified, with a plan to rectify them. Can you identify such a process in the Attawapiskat situation you refer to?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:24 PM

Excellent Al Jazeera video on Idle No More and Stephen Harper

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:42 PM

Anyone in the know got an update on what is actuialy going on? Been at it since before Chritmas now and the varous links being posted don't all agree :-( I would have thought with all the support for the Indians and the facebook pressure the Canadian government would have done something by now! A day is a long time in politics. This has been three weeks!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:50 PM

Shawn Atleo, the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, has announced that his doctor has ordered him to take 10 days off to recover from exhaustion -- he's worn out from the round-the-clock talk and brinksmanship.
Harper and Atleo need each other by L. Ian MacDonald (Ottawa Citizen)

The Idle No More people are doing a "national day of action" with a blockade on the Canadian National Railway main line in Manitoba, demonstrations in Ottawa and other disturbances.
Idle No More protesters gather at busiest border crossing (CBC website)

Theresa Spence is still refusing solid food and, while some Aboriginal leaders -- notably Matthew Coon Come -- are asking her to stop, others are pleading with the Prime Minister to do what she wants.
Native women's leader pleads with Harper to meet Spence, end her protest by Heather Scoffield, Canadian Press (Ottawa Citizen)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:03 PM

DTG, In a nutshell, my read on it:

Spence is still on a hunger strike. No end in sight, though some notable personalities have asked her to end it.

PM Harper met with the elected national chief of the Assembly of First Nations and some chiefs (all were invited to also attend). Spence did not attend, mainly (IMO) because the Governor General indicated he would not be attending. Some chiefs supported Spence and did not attend the meeting (others indicated thay were not attending because they did not like the location, format etc). What seems to have came out of the meeting is an agreement to meet again to work on some of the issues. No one knows where this will go?

Some see the non-attendance by some chiefs at the meeting as a division in the First Nations unity. Others see it differently, including an indication of reduced support for the elected leader of the Assemblay of First Nations.

Govenor general did get together with Spence and some First nations leaders. But, it was not a meeting to resolve issues, as requested by Spence.

There was a day of peaceful protest (and initiative to increase the public awareness of issies) today in various locations accross Canada.

Some First nations people threatened initiatives to impact economic interests, if progress is not achieved.

There have been threats of more agressive protests, if progress is not made. Others seem to be trying to keep it peaceful and legal to retain public support..

Considering the number of First nations groups and interests, huge geography, and that many others are involved for a variety of reaseons (some direct and some indirect) there are big differences on issues and approaches to resolve them.

A key demand of the protesters and chiefs is for the Canadian government to back down on changes to environmental oversight in two recent omnibus bills. A government spokesman recently said that there are no plans to reconsider this legislation.

It is difficult to gauge the Canadian public mood (especially since the various elements, positions, broad demands and interests are confusing and hard for many to get a handle on. IMO, most support better living and economic conditions for First nations peoples, yet are frustrated in little action from spending to date (by the federal government and some native governments).

But, as you note - many different, and often opposing perspectives in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:23 PM

A fractured aboriginal leadership hurts its own grassroots:


Tim Harper-Star

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 05:55 PM

Thanks Ed - Much appreciated and always good to get the news first hand as it were. Pretty much what I thought. Aggresive action will always lead to aggresive reaction. Looks like it may be the same here but the division amongst the aboriginal peoples is not doing them any good. I hope you were right when you said that the threats may at least move the centre and give a better negotiating base but I sadly doubt it.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM

dtg, the threats could move the centre and give a better negotiating base. That is if there is a vialbe centre remaining to negotiate with - I hope it will be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:44 PM

It is difficult to gauge the Canadian public mood...

Not mine. I am fuckin pissed. I have written everyone in my governments and told them that the bill must be immediately repealed as it is an affront to OUR environment.

I live here too. Generations have. And I ain`t goin ``home``. I am home. Natives don`t own the land... WE do. The Natives and their brothers that built this country. Not the government... not the Crown. They have shown they do not represent WE.

ONCE more... will the pipeline be builtÉ Yes. Can we make sure it get`s built properlyÉ Yes. How do we do thatÉ Repeal the bullshit law.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:05 PM

gnu,My observation is many are confused about what the Navigational Water Protection Act does, and never did.

Canada's Navigational Waters Protection act was never designed to protect the environment and had (has) zero provisions to do so to this very day - it was put in place "only" to protect navigation.

The only reason it had some impact on federal Environmental Assessments is because it often triggered a higher level assessment (with public input) for projects, when other focused environmental legislation (some also with archaic purpose) failed to trigger such a one. But, that does not mean the specific legislation that was designed to protect the environment was any stronger by this act.

Rather than "working against the existing grain" to repeal a piece of legislation that had no (or a marginal) impact on protecting the enviroment - would it not make more sense to strengthen the legislation that is directly designed to protect the environment? Or, an alternative approach may be to put new legislation that does a more focused (better) job?

I am puzzled as to why folks would take a non-direct and zig-zagged road to an end, versus a direct route that may have a more effective result.
This one beats me?

Some of the federal legislation directly designed to protect the enviroment include (but, this does not include them all) Fisheries Act (sections 33, 32 and 35), Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, Environmental Protection Act, Health Act, Species at risk Act.