Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies

alanabit 28 Dec 12 - 06:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Dec 12 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,DDT 28 Dec 12 - 06:50 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Dec 12 - 06:52 PM
Wesley S 28 Dec 12 - 07:01 PM
gnu 28 Dec 12 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,999 28 Dec 12 - 07:11 PM
alanabit 28 Dec 12 - 07:12 PM
alanabit 28 Dec 12 - 07:15 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 28 Dec 12 - 07:25 PM
GUEST,999 28 Dec 12 - 11:46 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 12 - 03:48 AM
Megan L 29 Dec 12 - 04:37 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 12 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Eliza 29 Dec 12 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,Eliza 29 Dec 12 - 06:38 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 12 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,CS 29 Dec 12 - 07:25 AM
Jack Campin 29 Dec 12 - 08:16 AM
alanabit 29 Dec 12 - 09:32 AM
alanabit 29 Dec 12 - 09:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM
Brian May 29 Dec 12 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,CS 29 Dec 12 - 12:12 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 12 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Eliza 29 Dec 12 - 01:27 PM
alanabit 29 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Eliza 29 Dec 12 - 02:04 PM
alanabit 29 Dec 12 - 03:00 PM
michaelr 29 Dec 12 - 03:16 PM
alanabit 29 Dec 12 - 05:20 PM
JHW 29 Dec 12 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,kendall 30 Dec 12 - 12:45 PM
alanabit 31 Dec 12 - 09:09 AM
kendall 31 Dec 12 - 12:53 PM
Raedwulf 31 Dec 12 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,Eliza 31 Dec 12 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,999 31 Dec 12 - 02:15 PM
kendall 31 Dec 12 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,mg 31 Dec 12 - 04:14 PM
Raedwulf 31 Dec 12 - 05:07 PM
kendall 31 Dec 12 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Jan 13 - 04:29 AM
kendall 01 Jan 13 - 05:06 AM
Penny S. 01 Jan 13 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Jan 13 - 01:26 PM
alanabit 01 Jan 13 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Jan 13 - 03:48 PM
Penny S. 01 Jan 13 - 04:48 PM
open mike 01 Jan 13 - 05:30 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Jan 13 - 07:48 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Jan 13 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,CS 07 Jan 13 - 12:58 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Jan 13 - 03:07 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 06:35 PM

I am not aware of how well reported this horrible case has been in the media which other Mudcatters use. A twenty-three year old Indian student, the victim of a vicious gang rape, has just died in hospital several days after the attack. There is a report here: Indian gang rape victim dies.

I just wrote the following on Facebook:

I have just seen the terrible news that the 23 year old woman, who was raped by a gang in India, has died. Could this have happened in my country? Probably - and indeed less well reported cases have probably happened elsewhere. I fear that this mind numbing level of violence can happen anywhere where we use excuses to undervalue the worth of any human being.

I can't get my head around it and I wonder how my fellow Mudcatters will respond. The usual reaction of some hangers and floggers is quite understandable, but I like to think that there are plenty of people here who can see a little further. I am not the only one here with a teenage daughter - and of course, it sets me thinking. How do we produce people who value other people so little?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 06:49 PM

We let them become desensitised to others' feelings by abdicating our parenting role in favour of TV and computer games which teach them that violence solves all problems.

That's all it takes.

In all the time my kids were growing up (the 70s and 80s), the TV was limited and never used as a babysitter.

We played with them, and taught them right from wrong. We took them to museums and art galleries at an early age, along with occasional visits to amusement parks etc.

We were always around, and from my daughter's fourth birtday until my son was sixteen, I never worked on a Saturday or Sunday. They were entirely devoted to family.

You know what? Once you get into the rhythm, it's the easiest job in the world.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 06:50 PM

Not hard to figure out--it's India, where women are valued less than a cowpie in the middle of the street. At least the cow that dumped it is considered sacred.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 06:52 PM

No DDT, it's not just India.

It's just about everywhere.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:01 PM

From the story:

"the patient passed away peacefully"


Yeah.....right. Gang raped and thrown from a moving bus. Peacefully.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: gnu
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:02 PM

Saw it on the news here. VERY upseeting. What is heartening is seeing the protestsss, seeing the government officials saying justice will be done, seeing these sick bastards arrested and charged.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:11 PM

I have daughters as you know, Alan. I have watched the 'story' for days. No one here would care for what I think because it's also what I would try to do, but I agree with you that it's hard to understand.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:12 PM

Now that she has died, the assailants will probably be charged with murder. India still has the death penalty, but executions are rare. I do hope that the guilty men spend a very long time in prison to reflect on what they have done.
That such a terrible thing can happen in India does not seem unconnected with the fact that women are seen by many there as being worth something less than a man. Many families consider it a catastrophe when a daughter comes to the world and not a son. Those of us who have daughters find this mindset very hard to comprehehend.
The mind boggles to think what kind of parenting these rapists had. I believe, however, that we can safely assume it was very different to the type that Don T is advocating.
And yes Wesley, the irony of the words "the patient passed away peacefully" was not lost on me either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:15 PM

It just means you are human Bruce. I feel the same. I guess that is why justice is taken out of the hands of individuals and administered (albeit often unsatisfactorily) in the way it is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:25 PM

The police turned on protesters with water canon and live ammo killing a journalist. Sad indeed but police corruption stands in the way of justice!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 11:46 PM

Just a song, ya know?

I often skip the first 40 seconds or so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 03:48 AM

No DDT, it's not just India.
It's just about everywhere.
Don T.

.,,.

Not contentiously, Don, but in some curiosity --

A bit more specificity, please. Just about where, precisely? Here, say [except perhaps among certain other sub-continentals who might have been mentioned in connection with some not-a-million-miles-away sorts of phenomena in some of our cities]?

Or?????

Somewhat puzzled...

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 04:37 AM

The Ealing vicarage rape and quite a few others commited by white anglo saxon males.

Anyone working with victim support or Rape Crisis can tell you that there are a lot of men out there who do not seem to understand a simple two letter word NO


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 05:55 AM

Yes, will certainly accept Ealing Vicarage as a great enormity; but it was 26 years ago & has had no even-near-analogues since, caused enormous national horror, and was an offence by two burglars, not a gang, whose primary object in breaking in was theft. A very different matter from these organised gang-rapists operating in public places: not a part of an ongoing and quasi-accepted pattern of offences as are the current goings-on in the Sub-Continent, but was regarded as an altogether exceptional occurrence. Not, surely part of the ubiquitous pattern ("just about everywhere"!)which Don purports to perceive. I take the point about NO meaning no; but this 'everywhere' of Don's just not appear to me to be justified.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 06:35 AM

Gang rapes were an everyday occurrence in Rwanda during the genocide. Rapes (gang and otherwise) still happen in African countries with unstable regimes and general lawlessness. I think the point about women seen as lesser beings is a valid one. Also, (think 'Lord of the Flies') there is only a thin veneer of 'civilisation' over a rampant animal instinct in humans. This case shocked and saddened me. The men should indeed be tried for murder. And women's rights and dignity respected. Maybe this will be achieved, but it takes time to change a culture.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 06:38 AM

By the way, the comment in the article about a rape victim being unable to get married says it all. A woman becomes 'soiled goods'. Not a good way to view a human being is it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 07:25 AM

Quite, Eliza. And that may well be what Don had in mind ~~ he will doubtless confirm if this the case. BUT India is not supposed to be an 'unstable regime', comparable to the troubled parts of sub-Saharan Africa which cause so much concern; but an ancient and revered civilisation; and these present activities are, I am sure, not indicative of the way its government and people would wish to be viewed by the world at large.

Re your second point ~~ indeed so; but it is not many years, talking of the African trouble-spots [though this would claim not to be one such] since a young woman was publicly punished with 100 strokes of the cane on her bare buttocks in Northern Nigeria, for the heinous offence of having given birth outside wedlock ~ as the acknowledged result of rape!

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 07:25 AM

This case is highly unusual in India, insofar as - unlike many others - it has galvanised public opinion against the rapists. India, alongside places like Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Congo, ranks as one of the most dangerous places in the world for a woman to live. Internal trafficking of children for sex is rife in India, as is domestic violence and the killing of female children. Prevailing cultural attitudes about women certainly do have a significant role to play in the way in which women are commonly treated in all societies, for good or for ill.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 08:16 AM

I guess the biggest cultural difference is that it's quite likely this case will lead to change. Sacrificing one woman's life under full media scrutiny is enough to get something done in India, as recently in Ireland.

Whereas in the US, 20 children getting massacred just as publicly will result in nothing at all changing. Hidebound theocracies are like that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 09:32 AM

Sad to say Jack, I think you are right.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 09:57 AM

I am just thinking aloud here, but I am wondering whether this horrendous attack is connected with the policy (in India) of many families to only accept male children. I have read that in parts of India only 80 girls are born for every 100 boys. This has led to a huge demographic imbalance.
Many young men - especially the poorer - have no chance of ever having a family - let alone being able to form normal sexual relationships in their youth.
In this case, the victim was a student. To some young men, she could have appeared over priveleged. She was a student, had a boyfriend and had just enjoyed a night out at the cinema. I am sure this assault had more to do with anger than any desire for sexual gratification. Of course, this is speculation - and it goes no way towards trying to excuse a heinous crime. Beastly as it was, there was a reason for this attack. What was it that turned her assailants into something full enough of rage to do this?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM

""Not, surely part of the ubiquitous pattern ("just about everywhere"!)which Don purports to perceive. I take the point about NO meaning no; but this 'everywhere' of Don's just not appear to me to be justified.""

Not worthy of you Mike, looking for a fight and making Alan's first comments prophetic.

I will spell it out for you (though I'm pretty sure you know damn well) that I was talking specifically about the desensitisation of youth and lack of proper parenting, not gang rape, which is only one of many crimes with the same cause.

If you've had a bad day and are feeling grumpy, pick a more deserving target.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Brian May
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 11:25 AM

I only hope that some good comes from this tragedy - often a forlorn hope.

The whole area of Asia and the Indian sub-continent display an overt negative attitude towards females. The extreme being the Taliban who openly are draconian with women they view to have 'erred'.

The police have come out of this in not too good a light too - my year in Bangladesh showed me that the impression that men can do what they like with women is pretty much the case, and is hugely disappointing. So often, it seems that the Indians are a gentle people, this shows the error of that perception.

If this makes women in India safer in the long-term, then her tragic death may have some meaning. We can only hope.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 12:12 PM

Unlike the US, who take pride in their rights and freedoms (including the right to own guns at whatever cost) and who don't give a rats ass about whether the rest of the world approves of how they conduct themselves either at home or abroad, the recent international spotlight on the gang rape problem in India, is deeply humiliating for the government of a nation desiring to shed it's old 'third world' image and be seen as a modern developing nation. I genuinely hope that women activists in India will be able to use the publicity surrounding this case to shame the powers that be, into genuine action to tackle the kinds of routine abuses, both physical and sexual, that huge amounts of Indian women experience everyday in silence.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 12:39 PM

I will spell it out for you (though I'm pretty sure you know damn well) that I was talking specifically about the desensitisation of youth and lack of proper parenting, not gang rape, which is only one of many crimes with the same cause.

.,,.
No, Don, I knew nothing of the sort. Your expression was far from clear on the matter; esp as it didn't answer the point you now claim to have replying to, parental deficiencies, but to a point by DDT specifically relating to the undervaluing of women ("Not hard to figure out--it's India, where women are valued less than a cowpie in the middle of the street. At least the cow that dumped it is considered sacred"). If you don't believe me, scroll up & look again!

Nobdoy was looking for a fight. But you had berrer express yourself with a bit more clartiy if you do not wish to be misinterpreted ~~ by, I would add, a professional literary critic and professional teacher for 30 years of English comprehension.

Must Do Better!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 01:27 PM

alanabit, your last sentence was very interesting to me. 'What is it that turned her assailants into something full enough of rage to do this?' From various sources, I've learned that in history, conquering armies all over the world in many ages who are looting and pillaging see it as normal to rape as well. It has happened even in Biblical accounts. So I would postulate that it may not be due to bad parenting or modern influences such as violent video games etc. I'm no psychologist, but I wonder if the 'fight' or 'attack' hormones in males (maybe not just humans) also give rise to anger, sexual arousal and dominant mating behaviour.
Many male mammals will mate with all the females in a group after winning a fight against a dominant male. These men (please do NOT think I am excusing them, far from it, just seeking some form of explanation) were aroused by hatred, anger, need to self-assert, bitterness etc and this in turn seems to bring about the 'red mist' and sexual attack. Men can be dangerous. In Rwanda they even chopped off the arms of young children.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM

I hope you are wrong Eliza, but I fear you are right. The frenzy and andrenalin rush which can come over us at certain times does seem to make us capable of the most beastly actions. There is obviously some sort of group dynamic at work in these cases of gang rape - or even gang assault of any other kind. I fear that these men harboured an extreme level of resentment against their victim. However unjustified this was, we have to try to understand it if this appalling tragedy is not to occur again.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 02:04 PM

Sadly, the 'vengeance' reaction (perfectly understandable in the circumstances) will naturally make people want to tear these men to pieces. Death penalties, while to a small extent satisfying one's outrage, do nothing to try and examine and learn from the crime. I fear that is too advanced an approach for our times. I personally feel murderous towards eg paedophiles, but understanding what causes this behaviour is far more constructive in the long run.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 03:00 PM

I agree entirely.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 03:16 PM

Another Indian rape victim, an 18-year old girl, killed herself by drinking poison Thursday, a month after she told police she was gang-raped. Reportedly, she had been advised to marry one of her attackers. Authorities in Punjab suspended one police officer and fired two others for delays in investigating the case. The three men accused were only arrested a month after the crime occurred.

It appears that the (presumably male) Indian police force is complicit in these horrific crimes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 05:20 PM

It does indeed, which is no surprise in an overwhelmingly male dominated society.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: JHW
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 05:56 PM

This is so desperately sad
Huge candlelit vigils, widespread protests, plenty of police to keep order
But no one there to help her when she needed help


I am so sad that she didn't pull through


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 12:45 PM

It's not unheard of right here in NYC. Raped and stabbed to death while neighbors turned up their TV to drown the screaming.
I would have taken pleasure in kicking his damned head into the next zip code.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 09:09 AM

A perfectly human and natural emotion Kendall. However, as you are, I believe, a former law enforcement officer, I presume that is not the solution which you advocate!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 12:53 PM

No. I'd rather blow his brains out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Raedwulf
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 01:14 PM

We let them become desensitised to others' feelings by abdicating our parenting role in favour of TV and computer games which teach them that violence solves all problems.

Don, I thought you spoke well in the first part of that sentence. Then you fall into the same trap that so many others have before you. I play violent computer games. I'm not a violent man. I'm a (lapsed) re-enactor & martial artist. I have some notion of Abrazare (unarmed combat, esp. wrestling), of dagger work; I know how to use a sword, a long bow, several other weapons. I'm still not a violent man.

On the other hand, I'm old enough (and with 3 older siblings) that the "parental role", whoever was filling it (98% my parents), was never abdicated.

Maybe it's the abdication that's the problem, not what fills the void?

As for the poor lass, may she now be at peace.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 01:23 PM

And yet, people with good and careful parents have turned bad. And those with horrendous childhoods have nonetheless become kind and steady adults. I've thought about this for years and years, and never quite sorted it out in my mind. What IS it that makes people (not just men) act wickedly and violently? Men have raped for millennia. Surely they weren't all badly brought up? Is it genetic? Political? Cultural? Hormonal? Psychological? Or a combination of some or all these? And what do we do about it? What do we do with them? Execute them? Isolate? Lobotomy? No idea.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 02:15 PM

Alan, I hate to disappoint you old friend, but before Kendall blows their brains out I'd castrate the bastards.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 02:34 PM

The line forms behind me. I'll be behind 999


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 04:14 PM

I think the elephant in the room is the caste and below caste system. there is great damage done to the Dalit (formerly untouchable and we are also supposed to call them something other than Dalit now but I don't know what it is). I am searching for someone of that group to sing on our lullaby cd and it has even more urgency now so please contact me if you know someone of that group who could sing a traditional lullaby of their's and we will get it on the cd although perhaps not on the first run which is being compiled right now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Raedwulf
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 05:07 PM

Eliza - point proven. It isn't a male thing, it isn't TV & computer games, or any other specific "thing". I think that violence, of whatever kind, is rooted in lack of empathy with other people. Where does the lack of empathy come from? Methinks 'twould be simpler to unknot the Gordian, assuming Alexander's method is disbarred! ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 07:46 PM

Rape is all about power, nothing to do with sex.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 04:29 AM

I agree, kendall, but of what value is a 'power' exerted over a weak and defenceless woman? If a man attacked and vanquished a strong and threatening foe, that would be power. But raping a woman is no more 'powerful' than squashing an ant. There must be something sexual in it, or he would content himself with 'merely' killing her. As to caste, the woman concerned was not a Dalit. And rape happens to women of all and any type, class or caste. Even elderly ones. Even in their own homes. A Gordian Knot indeed. I wonder if, in the far future, there might be a scientific way of identifying 'flaws' in people's brains which make them potentially dangerous. This would be rectified by some form of genetic engineering. Very Orwellian, but I don't see why this couldn't be done in perhaps a hundred years' time. Ethical? Acceptable? Advisable? Not sure!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 05:06 AM

PUBLIC EXECUTIONS.

Men who do such things are too cowardly to attack a man. Even the best boxers will avoid men who might kick their ass in the ring.Joe Louis was an exception, so was Mohamed Ali.All bullies are cowards at heart.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 08:48 AM

kendall, these unmen first attacked the male friend of the woman. Before I went to college on the East Coast of England, in the 60's, a group attacked the boyfriend of a student, knocked him out, and then raped her. The phrase gang rape did not exist then. I don't think the cowardice comes from avoiding men, but from attacking in groups. Nor was there any element of caste or class involved - I don't suppose that the men would have known the woman was a student.

And I don't think castration would solve anything where the beasts could use metal bars, bottles, rifles or other weapons for penetration. I also remember reading a life of Peter Abelard where it was explained that in his time, where the action was more widely understood than now, he was still regarded as a threat to Heloise celibacy after the punishment her uncle inflicted on him.

What really puzzles me is why some men are able to get into a state to carry out rapes which are so associated with violence and hate. It can't be adrenaline's fight and flight effects, which notably shut down all functions except those needed for battle - and I would have thought that a concentration of blood flow anywhere but in the muscles and the brain would be a major distraction and counter to survival.

It's clear that that idiot politician's belief about women's bodies being able to prevent conception after rape is wrong, because these unmen would have evolved their abilities out of the genome in short order. They do seem to try very hard to enable that to happen by the use of weapons, but have unfortunately failed.

Other mammals do not seem to show this sort of behaviour (unless it has been under reported) - perhaps aggressive unwanted penetration, but it seems to be obviously associated with procreation, not destroying the female. (I believe mallards have been reported gang raping females, sometimes holding the head down so the female drowns, but it does seem to be more of a breeding frenzy than what happens in humans. And mallards are notably stupid and not capable of engaging what brain they have. Saw a femalke lay an egg on the lawn, walk away and not notice the crow which immediately broke it open.)

It's clear that this sort of behaviour does not occur in all men. (Despite the African militia leader who explained his unmen's behaviour as understandable because "they are only human".) Most find it appalling. Men are not all potential rapists. As the Met Police poster claims "Real Men don't rape."

As for public executions - in ancient Rome, it was known that those who had observed the bloodshed of the circus were very ready to engage in sexual behaviour as they emerged from the theatre. Given this extraordinarily peculiar link between violence and erections, do we want to encourage it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 01:26 PM

Penny, most interested in all you say. Male violence and sexual aggression has always puzzled me. I just don't know enough about the brain and its functions to be able to explain male behaviour. As you say, comparison with animals doesn't shed much light on it. There seems to be a link between violence and sexual arousal, but where is the natural advantage in that? To maim or kill a sexual mate doesn't make sense biologically. And even in countries where women are mostly treated as equals with men, 'gang rape' happens. I feel public executions (in fact, any executions) are execrable and unacceptable in a civilised society. But that's another, old thread!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 03:33 PM

The death penalty - in theory - already exists for this sort of case in India. Given the amount of publicity surrounding this case, I fear there is a chance of it being carried out on one or more of the offenders. However, executing these men would be wrong.
I think that if one of these men had crossed my path in the aftermath of the attack, my reaction would have been the same as 999 or Kendall's. I would not like to claim that I am strong enough not to inflict serious injury on one of the perpetrators. I am every bit as angry at these men as my friends here. That would not be justice though - and it would lay down no marker for society.
This terrible case has brought public attention to the fact that women in India are frequently raped, assaulted, murdered and humiliated. Of course the priority is that the culture changes and that women are afforded a measure of decency and respect by everyone. The deterrent effect of any punishment is the certainty of getting it. That will not change until there is a huge shift in attitudes throughout society and women can expect the prosecution and conviction of offenders. We should really know that from our own society. Just hanging a few bastards who happened to make the front pages will only make them look unlucky to get caught. The society will only change when convictions for rape, assault and murder become the rule rather than the exception.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 03:48 PM

All so true alanabit. This needs to go right down to the cultural roots of subjugation of women. Forced marriages, domestic violence, 'honour' killings etc must all be addressed at the same time. Education can play a part in changing attitudes. But Tradition is a hard rock to crack. I too have felt I'd like to kill a rapist or paedophile (and I've seen many of these sitting in the Visits Room in a segregated area while Prison Visiting. They were always called The Beasts. Even their visitors were spat on in the car park afterwards) But as you say, that won't achieve radical change. I still find the psychology of group rape very interesting and impossible to understand.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 04:48 PM

There was a woman on Women's Hour yesterday speaking of her campaign to have "newspapers" with demeaning (she cited "upskirt" shots) photos of women on the cover to be displayed inside shops and not at a low, pushchair level outside. And another (or it might have been the same person) who, when she had started a website about the harassment women in this country have to deal with, had the site flooded with aggressive, personal, and foul posts from, presumably, males of some sort. It isn't just India that needs the education.

Penny


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: open mike
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 05:30 PM

here is news about an anti rape protest in India
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/live-antirape-protesters-throng-jantar-mantar-demand-access-to-india-gate/313043-3-244.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:48 PM

One *amazing* lady....

The stories in here are hard to listen to, for the things that have been done to little children, to young women, will probably bring tears. Sunitha herself was gang-raped by 8 men, but she has dedicated her life to caring for others who have been through what she experienced, and worse..

She is compassionate, angry and deeply courageous.

I wish there was a Global Campaign run by Men to stop this. I wish the Men of the World would come together to say "ENOUGH! This abuse of women and children stops, and it stops NOW!"

Sunitha Krishnan - The Fight Against Sex Slavery


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:41 AM

There should also be a male version of this gang who also go in and beats Seven Daylights out of these bastards....

The Gulabi Gang - Bringing Justice for the Abused Women of India


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 12:58 PM

Thanks Lizzie, always inspiring and heartening to see grass roots activism of this kind.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Rape Victim Dies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 03:07 PM

"We want the world to know her real name," the devastated dad told The Sunday People newspaper. "My daughter didn't do anything wrong; she died while protecting herself."

He added: "I am proud of her. Revealing her name will give courage to other women who have survived these attacks. They will find strength from my daughter."

Her name was...Jyoti Singh Pandey, and her Father wants the world to know


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 19 September 8:37 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.