BS: President Obama Caves In Again!

Subject: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 07:25 PM

Our spelunking leader has caved in again to the Republican opposition(?).
Guantanamo stays open. They love him. They always get their way.
Start making more excuses for him, Obamalovers.
You claimed he was going to show some gumption in his second term.
Caves In Again!
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 07:37 PM

SCHLOOOOPF!!!!!!

(the giant sucking sound that creeping Fascism makes as it is passed into law)

The NDAA is Fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 07:50 PM

2 very delusional posts...

Next???

B~

Subject: Stop feeding the trolls
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 07:51 PM

. . . and Krinkle is a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 07:51 PM

But... he is not the one that keeps it open. Therefore, your criticism of him is false Fry Boy. Yes, "Fry Boy". That's better than what I was gonna call ya, ya....

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 07:59 PM

SRS... troll... we cross pissed but "troll" came to mind. So did others but those would be personal attacks and they are not necessary under the circumstances. I am sure many readers know of which I speak.

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:03 PM

Could he not use an Executive Order(s) to

1) close Guantanamo?

2) rid the NDAA of habeas corpus suspension?

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:14 PM

1) Yes, he could... Problem is that the Repubs won't authorize any $$$ to house the folks who are there now so all would have to be released...

2) Maybe, but this would end up in the Supreme Court and he would lose there...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:23 PM

Gotcha. Thanks, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 09:35 PM

Additionally, many have nowhere to go. Not exactly a great excuse but it has become a problem.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 09:54 PM

Ah, about that habeas corpus thing...

The US Constitution:

Section. 9.

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Note too that Habeas Corpus is called a "privilege" and not a "right."

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 09:59 PM

Habeas Corpus gose back a thousand years...

But here in the US it don't mean shit!!!

It ain't all about the folks held in Guantanamo...

It's about anonymous ads being run accusing people of this or that without having to step forward as being the accuser...

I mean, we have a lot of shit to fix here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:10 PM

Good point, Rap. Always the sober voice you are. Kinda "centres" the discussion, in a way. Centers fer you Yanks? Next it will be senters... STOP that shit, would yas? Speak ENGLISH! Sentralis/ze things.

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:11 PM

Sue 'em for libel and/or slander. Simple, and it'll put money in your pocket (and a lawyer's). Hit 'em in the pocketbook and it'll slow the bastards down!

Habeas corpus doesn't apply to people accusing others of things. The Constitution also says that Congress has the powers regarding prisoners taken in war, but whether or not that applies only to declared wars is something I don't think the courts have ever ruled on.

Or go back a hundred and seventy years and do what Congress did then: Somebody says something that you think insults you, challenge them to a duel. Both the American and the Irish Codes Duello are on the Web; perhaps facing being shot or stabbed would make people think twice about what they say about someone else. (Check out the Bladensburg, Maryland "Congressional Dueling Ground.")

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:15 PM

The concept of habeas corpus has been around for a long, long time... The concept says that a man has the right to face his accuser...

No reason to complicate it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:16 PM

Read up on Clarence Earl Gideon. Gideon's Trumpet for those of you who remember reading it in high school. Habeas corpus was a big deal in that (though you won't find it mentioned in the Wikipedia entry). Gideon helped it work a whole lot better.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Songwronger
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:24 PM

Obama's not caving; he's working hand in glove with the other fascists in Washington. Some of you think of them as Democrat, some of you think of them as Republican, but at the end of the day they've raised your taxes, cut social services, and directed the media to paint the process as conflict instead of cooperation.

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:28 PM

So, wrongeman... Are you on record that the government should spend more on social services??? If so, please elaborate...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:44 PM

No, Bobert, it isn't. From Cornell's Legal Information Institute:

A writ of habeas corpus is used to bring a prisoner or other detainee (e.g. institutionalized mental patient) before the court to determine if the person's imprisonment or detention is lawful. In the US system, federal courts can use the writ of habeas corpus to determine if a state's detention of a prisoner is valid. A habeas petition proceeds as a civil action against the State agent (usually a warden) who holds the defendant in custody. It can also be used to examine any extradition processes used, amount of bail, and the jurisdiction of the court.

It is not the right to face your accuser. That's the confrontation clause and is in the Sixth Amendment (fair and speedy trial, etc.).

The problem with the Guantanamo prisoners is that the writ would have to be filed against the US government, and that would come under the Federal Courts (Constitution, Article III, Section 2, reading in part: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party....) and the courts have the authority to decide which cases they will hear. So if you can't get it into a federal court, it ain't gonna happen.

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Songwronger
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:46 PM

Obama just carved chunks out of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaide. Clinton killed welfare to needy families, and now Obama's whittling away on entitlements. Do you support these bogus "austerity measures?"

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:58 PM

If you go back the "Magna Charta", Rap, you will see that the entire concept of habeas corpus isn't all about being charged with a crime but upon the evidence that would be brought against you, i.e. the concept of an accused man having the right to face the accuser...

I will admit that in law schools across the country these exact arguments have been been going on for almost forever...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 11:41 PM

I just looked over the Magna Carta, Bobert, and it ain't in there or at least I didn't see it. There ARE some interesting things there, though:

54. No one shall be arrested or imprisoned upon the appeal of a woman, for the death of any other than her husband.

50. We will entirely remove from their bailiwicks, the relations of Gerard of Athee (so that in future they shall have no bailiwick in England); namely, Engelard of Cigogne, Peter, Guy, and Andrew of Chanceaux, Guy of Cigogne, Geoffrey of Martigny with his brothers, Philip Mark with his brothers and his nephew Geoffrey, and the whole brood of the same.

35. Let there be one measure of wine throughout our whole realm; and one measure of ale; and one measure of corn, to wit, "the London quarter"; and one width of cloth (whether dyed, or russet, or "halberget"), to wit, two ells within the selvedges; of weights also let it be as of measures.

10. If one who has borrowed from the Jews any sum, great or small, die before that loan be repaid, the debt shall not bear interest while the heir is under age, of whomsoever he may hold; and if the debt fall into our hands, we will not take anything except the principal sum contained in the bond.

Nothing on habeas corpus. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 01:00 PM

Speedy and fair trial included reasonable representation, no matter the nature of the charge. Some states used to only give capital offenses free defense. Now they have to offer it to anyone who can't afford an attorney. In theory.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 01:32 PM

I have a copy of the Magna Carta, and there are two things that keep me from posting it here. It's nine miles long and in Latin.

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 02:54 PM

Have a look at the Habeas Corpus Act of 1679.

Concisely, it means a procedure to force courts to examine the lawfulness of a prisoner's detention.

One can argue about its limitations and court decisions bearing on them.

A summary in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_Corpus_Act_1679

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:48 PM

I can tell from the thread title that distortion is inherent in the OP, because it reeks of the effort to be less kind than possible, and to exaggerate things for the worse.

I would really like to see habeas corpus reinvigoratede as

A

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:49 PM

...reinvigorated as a fundamental civil protection, though.

Subject: RE: BS: President Obama Caves In Again!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 06:59 AM

Tea Party Chaos