BS: Obama and Torture

Subject: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Songwronger
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:41 PM

From the World Socialist Website:

Obama and torture
4 January 2013

As the Obama administration prepares to begin its second term, with its liberal and "left" apologists speculating on prospects for progressive action, events have once again made clear that the Democratic president is continuing and deepening the crimes of his predecessor.

In his first four years in office, Obama and his attorney general, Eric Holder, worked aggressively to shut down all investigations into CIA torture and other crimes committed in the name of the "war on terrorism." It intervened in case after case to quash lawsuits seeking to hold accountable those who had illegally abducted and tortured thousands of individuals. It sought dismissal of legal actions seeking to uncover information about these crimes by invoking state secrecy.

The result of this sordid policy is that the torturers and those who gave them orders, from the CIA interrogators all the way to the White House, have enjoyed complete immunity....

....Once again, the absence of any significant constituency within America's ruling establishment for constitutional principles and democratic rights is revealed. The US president, Barack Obama, has arrogated to himself the right to subject US citizens to indefinite military detention and order their assassination without charges or trials, on his sole say-so that they are enemies of the state. And neither the judiciary nor any leading figure in either major party, nor the corporate-controlled media, is prepared to challenge this dictatorial policy....

http://wsws.org/en/articles/2013/01/04/pers-j04.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:42 PM

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((yawn)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Songwronger
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:49 PM

Your guy Obama is a psycho-killer, and you want to pretend it's not an issue? He goosesteps alongside G.W. and Cheney, and that's not a concern?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 10:53 PM

Good. Some folks need killin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 11:12 PM

My, my! How did I know that Songwronger started this thread even before I opened it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 04:43 AM

No trick to it, Don. I knew it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 10:09 AM

Where were you when Bush was in power, Songwronger? You could have justifiably started a thread like this every ten minutes!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 10:33 AM

Every 5 minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:22 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 06:31 PM

The World Socialist Website?

I thought all you Joe sixpack, Nascar crackers ran a mile from anything remotely socialist. ShitWringer.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: MarkS
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 06:31 PM

I thought this was about listening to reruns of his old speeches.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:01 PM

You could have started a thread like this every 5 or 10 minutes during either the Bush or the Obama administrations.

But very few here would complain about it if a Republican was now president or back when Bush was either. They'd be right onside, agreeing with Songwronger, and screaming for justice, because they'll go after a Republican administration like pitbulls...yet remain passive or make excuses for the Democrats when the same things are done by a Democratic president.

I don't care much whether it's Hitler, Goering, Mussolini, Himmler, Borrman or Goebbels who is in charge of the great Fascist world-devouring machine at any given time. It's still Fascism regardless. Third World people still die regardless. Your civil rights are still violated regardless. Torture still goes on regardless. Bankers still get the benefits regardless. The leaders change, but the jackboot of oppression tramps on.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:52 PM

Little Hawk, Right fucking on!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:01 PM

I third that!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:04 PM

Of course... The LH/GfinS circle jerk is alive and well...

One sings the "Both Sides Shuffle" and the other chimes right in...

Normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:24 PM

Here, Bobert..some music for ya'

Did it speak to you?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:57 PM

Man, the P-Vine can kill that song accompanying herself on piano...

For me??? Yeah, I liked it okay when it came out... Weren't like Big Head Todd but it was okay...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Songwronger
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 09:12 PM

Three Ways Obama Carried Bush's Tyrannical Torch, in Just One Week
January 6, 2013

1. Warrantless wiretapping of American citizens: On Sunday, Obama signed into law a renewal of the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, which authorizes broad, warrantless surveillance of Americans' international communications, checked only by a secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that doesn't make it's activities and procedures available to the public....

2. Indefinite detention without charge or trial: On Wednesday, Obama signed the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act into law. The 680-page omnibus bill contains more military and national security provisions than any one person can account for, but it notably renews the prohibition against transferring detainees from Guantanamo Bay to the US for any purpose, a measure which again prevents Obama from fulfilling his pledge to close the black hole detention center....

3. Targeted killings of suspects by drone, without any pretense of due process (even if they are US citizens) remains none of the American people's business.

One could argue that Obama doesn't support indefinite detention as much as Bush did, since he supports killing suspects before the issue of detention ever arises.

On Wednesday, a federal judge sided with the Obama administration in a case brought by The New York Times in which the latter was demanding that more information about the legality of the drone war be disclosed.

In terms of carrying on the legacy of the Bush administration, this one is a double-whammy. Not only did Obama expand Bush's covert drone program exponentially, but he's doing so by shutting out any judicial scrutiny by claiming disclosures would harm national security, a tactic called 'state secrets privileges' which was pioneered by the Bush administration....


http://www.blacklistednews.com/Three_Ways_Obama_Carried_Bush%E2%80%99s_Tyrannical_Torch%2C_in_Just_One_Week/23459/0/38/38/Y/M.ht

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 09:16 PM

More right winged blog cut and pastes from the right winged cut and paster hisself....

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((yawn))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Songwronger
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 09:24 PM

And you're defending a torturer. Refute what the article says. You can't. Maybe you wouldn't yawn so much if you'd quit smoking that Mexican pot that Eric Holder runs up from Mexico for you with his guns-to-the-cartels program. How does it feel, defending the torturer Obama and smoking pot bought with the blood of children? You're into death and torture, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Gern
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 09:27 PM

Whatever Songwriter's apparent record for posting, these points are valid. No one can claim that Obama has out-killed bush and co., but America's permanent state-of-war sails proudly on. BO campaigned 4 years back with the promise to close Guantanamo and has a Nobel Peace Prize to go with all his Cruise missiles. Just because he's better than Bush or Romney does not make him beyond reproach, particularly on such important issues. This topic deserves serious discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 09:34 PM

Refuting right winged bloggers who get 6 figures a year to spin the truth into an indescribable ball of poo ain't my bag, wonger... Rather than put this shit up why not you - yes, you - verify the validy of the shit you post???

Huh???

I'm not going to fight with some guy who has a staff and is getting big bucks to push shit for the right wing...

Forget it...

That ain't gonna happen...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Songwronger
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 10:28 PM

The initial post in this thread cited a piece from the World Socialist Website. My last citation came from the other end of the political spectrum.

Regardless of where the information came from, it is valid. Look at the last article. It describes what Obama did, in just FOUR DAYS, regarding our rights as Americans:

1) On Sunday he renewed warrantless secret wiretapping. So, the federal government can continue to invade your privacy in a way that is an ABSOLUTE violation of the 4th Amendment to our constitution.

2) On Weds. he renewed the National Defense Authorization Act. This is the act in which he says he can disappear Americans without trial.

3) On Weds. his lawyers won a ruling to keep drone murders secret. Obama has already killed Americans with drones, and now a court gave him a green light to keep on doing it.

You liberals screamed when Bush began implementing this stuff, but now you're fine with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 11:32 PM

Let's look at the other hand - you were probably fine with all of that policy stuff when Bush put it in place, Songwronger. It's just that the stinky stuff is still around and you fear how a liberal might use it against you and yours?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 12:07 AM

No, actually I was calling Bush's father a mass murderer back when he was in office. Junior was just a chip off the old block.

Banks have seized control of the world's governments. They've done this by playing us off against one another. "You and yours" you just said. That's how the moneyed elite (the 1%) wants us to talk. Both of our major parties serve the interests of the 1%, and both parties are trampling on our rights. Obama just strengthened Bush's torture policies. I hated it when Bush did it, I hate it when Obama does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 12:29 AM

Songwronger has it right.
And I think deep down, you know it.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 02:21 AM

Bobert: "Refuting right winged bloggers who get 6 figures a year to spin the truth into an indescribable ball of poo ain't my bag, wonger..."

Yeah, you'd rather be a 'left' wing blogger, doing it for free!

BS: Obama and Torture
Actually hearing him reading one of his monotonous speeches, is definitely BS: Obama and Torture!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM

I don't read bloggers, period, GfinS... I read the WaPo, the Charlotte Observer and a little of the New York Times and from my opinions based on real news and facts...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:34 AM

Bobert: "....and from my opinions based on real news and facts..."

...that fit into your blind biases..

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 01:26 PM

Krinkle said

Songwronger has it right.
And I think deep down, you know it.

You don't think anything of the sort, Krinkle. You just want to try to annoy as many people as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 02:14 PM

It doesn't really matter whether you like Songwronger or not. He didn't make this up. Obama is really doing this. The question that he asks is not an unreasonable one, though he couches it in partisan rhetoric. And, I love you, Bobert, but you have no cause to complain, because you shovel that rhetoric around too, same as him.

Sad fact--those who questioned these policies from Bush/Cheney accept them from Obama. In the name of Homeland Security the doors have been closed and the blinds have been drawn on the workings of our government, and the liberal and progressive among us are letting it slide, because "the good guys" are doing it...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 02:30 PM

Ditto, Stim.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 02:45 PM

HOWEVER, I would have a bit more faith in some posters here had they denigrated Bush as much as they do Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Stime
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 03:27 PM

God put some people here to denigrate Bush, and others for Obama. And don't think you can trick me into to putting that word next to "Obama"--I am not going there...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 10:32 PM

...and the REALLY interesting thing about it, Stim, is that the 'Patriot Act' on which hinges the 'Homeland Security', was written by none other than Joe Biden, in the mid-ninety's.
I guess with a 'little co-operation', they(co-jointly) just needed that one ' little' incident to implement it...... currently the next step: Newtown.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 10:46 PM

I may stir the pot here but, at least, I have never (30,000 posts, or so...) once hid behind a blog...

100% of blogs are out to cram your brain with some rich guys schemes to stay rich and get richer... These people clog up searches... Heck, I used to be able to research stuff on the internet... Now??? Anything that is the slightest political I gotta go to Page 10 or Page 1,000,000 to get beyond the propaganda layers that ***paid*** bloggers have crammed into the search engines...

Bottom line??? Hey, some of ya'll may think that I hang too heavy with my beliefs and life's experiences but I come to my biases and opinions honestly... No blogs... Just the old fashioned way... Reading... Listening... And a life of hard knocks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 10:51 PM

........and driving Corvairs!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 11:56 PM

Sorry, Bobert, you're shoveling empty rhetoric again(others have a more colorful name for it).

Blogs are not what you say, very far from it, in fact. Most blogs belong to people who don't have the money needed to publish books, magazines, pamphlets, or send out mailings. Most belong to people who can't buy infomercials or sponsor TALK RADIO.   Anybody can start a blog which means that there are blogs representing every point of view. That's both the best and the worst thing about blogs, because anybody can say what they want, from the Area 51 conspiracy theorists to the human rights activist.

It's free speech (at least for now) and you have to judge each on it's own merits. Contrary to what you might think, the WaPo and NYT are heavily, well, we won't say censored, but "edited", and there is a lot that is not reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 11:39 AM

I like this guy!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 12:56 PM

I participate in the WaPo discussions every night, Stimz... You would be amazed at how little people actually have to say that they thought of themselves from learning stuff... No, it's one lazy person after another who just post stuff with links to long winded people who clearly are paid to forward right winged talking points that if you get into then the entire conversation gets twisted in a manner that all but changes the conversation entirely...

This ain't about free speech... I'm for free speech... I'm for bloggers... Fine, some, I'm sure are great people who do their homework...

What I object to is folks loading up a conversation/discussion with so many of these links that they overpower and high-jack the discussion...
If people want to read millions of blogs and form an argument using their own words, fine... Do it...

Corvairs rock!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 01:37 PM

Bobert, I was traveling over a pass here, and stopped at a rest stop, at the summit to make use of the facilities...and upon emerging from the rest room...there in front of us was two showroom condition, chrome was flawless Corvairs, one a Spyder and the other just a regular one. They told me they were touring together...and proceeded to open the rear engine compartments to show off their engines...JEEZ!!..You would have drooled!
Immaculate!..beefed (one of them)...and the rest of their cars were totally stock, but pristine. If you would have seen them you would have loaded your drawers with presidential candidates!! One was a gold/bronze color, and the other was maroonish red...both perfect, even down to the upholstery.
..just thought I'd tell ya'.....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 05:35 PM

I'm drooling just reading about them "Vairs"... Mine had a 110 hp engine... There were two other engines... One had 135 HP and the other 180 HP... The 180 (Spyder) was a turbo which had lots of problems with the turbo... I mean, lots...

Mine wasn't mint but it was 90%... No rust, good white paint and roll-'n-pleated red and white guts... 4 speed... Nice car...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 09:30 PM

Funny you mentioned that(about the turbos), because he was telling me that the turbo he had on there was different than the original equipment..he said it was a lot better....I was not familiar with the problems of their turbo, so I didn't think to ask him much deeper....but he did say it was a really good, strong unit.
These things were so flawlessly nice, I was surprised to see them out on the road!..even down to the tires!....the chrome wheels, weren't even dusty!

Oh well......

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 09:42 PM

The turbo is like a vacuum cleaner with a housing and an impeller (fin kinda thingie)... The impeller has to either be real hard or have "blades" installed on them which are which ride on the inner casing of the impeller... The Coravir's internal metal components didn't see eye to eye...

BTW, the down side of turbos back then was that since the turbo uses exhaust to turn stuff that needs to turn to cram a lot of burnable shit by the intake valve where with the internal combustion engine is where the big bang occurs...

'Vairs eat up a turbo every 30K back then but what a 30K!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 09:57 PM

Bobert, there are some blogs that work exactly the way you described. I can't remember what the topic was, but I think I heard an ad on AM radio and decided to debunk it. The owner of the product had literally put up hundreds of fake sites - if you searched on the term by it's name it came up with glowing reviews, or if you searched plus "debunked," it landed on a page that the owner had written saying "I wanted to debunk it, but this product is for real!" and continued on with the usual glowing review and art work, etc. I was dumbfounded at the number of these - I scanned back through probably 40 - 50 pages and found not a one that was a real response to this guy's site.

When we get personalized searches in Google we're getting results that are most like what we usually look for. I suspect some of the folks who get the results they expect are getting personalized results. I find it is best to turn off personal results.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:34 AM

Bobert, I know how turbos work..I just was not familiar with the Corvair's issues with them.

Anyway, you would have LOVED these two cars. I wasn't even a super Corvair fan, and I dug the shit out of them!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM

Yup, Magz... Anything controversial gets slammed with garbage... If you Google up "guns", for instance, the first several pages in your search will be clogged up with pro-gun BS telling you stuff like, "Guns saved 1,000,000 lives last year", blah, blah, blah... Gets harder and harder to get to anything that resembles the truth...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 11:28 PM

Keith Ratliff would just love to tell you about how guns saved his life. Yep!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 02:22 AM

Blaming guns for all this is about as logical as Rosie O'Donnell, or Chris Christie blaming their silverware for being fat!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 10:00 AM

It's kinda difficult to blame it on subway tokens, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 01:45 PM

obama is preferable to romney or bush because the latter are part of the financial elite who are gutting america of jobs. he does a few better thing. but only a few. the fact that obama has kept up the torture and the massive elimination of civil rights shows he's not a liberal, and never was. that was juts delusional right wing fantasy.

however it really doesn't matter that much whether you hva e nazi jack boot or a gucci shoe on your neck. crimes against humanity and the destruction of civil rights mean the end of the america i knew between the fifties and the eighties, and a ltile further.

its the evil empire now wending its way to collapse. the collapse will be horriffying if its run by the delusional fright wing. there are ways to alieviate it. like stop shipping trillions of dollar to wall street financiers and the military corporations and maybe spend it on mortage relief, small business bailouts education and infrastructure.   however the sign are not good for those kind of common sense solutions in the military capilatist empire.

there has never been a time when america has been more fascist nor more destructive to its working people

and there has never been a time when america has been more of an internatoional criminal

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 07:24 PM

Wish Boner and o'donnell would quit torturing o'bama.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 05:58 PM

ollaimh ~~~...You guys should listen to this guy more often!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 06:22 PM

You can always spot the "hater" threads by the titles. They say "Obama as if he were not the duly elected President.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 06:33 PM

Jack: "You can always spot the "hater" threads by the titles. They say "Obama as if he were not the duly elected President."

...and you've been programmed to 'hate' them, too????????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 06:43 PM

In a perfect world where there's wasn't this massive minority well financed attack machine that is every bit as scary as the Southern Democrats in 1860 Obama would have the "luxury" of being able to do a lot more on a lot of fronts...

He tried to shut down Guantanamo only to be thwarted by the Republicans saying that they would not pay for the transfer or keeping of the folks there in any prison in the US... So that was sixed...

He has ordered the end of "enhanced interrogation" so as far as anyone knows water=boarding no longer occurs... Dogs are not longer used... Making people strip naked with wired attached to them no longer occurs...

I mean, yeah, in a perfect world where the opposition party doesn't have all the power this one has...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:32 PM

Couple of things...

The fact that Obama did the 3 things in 4 days that I mentioned are still that, fact, whether the news comes from the World Socialist Website or a right-wing news source. Obama did those things. You can tell when someone has lost an argument on a forum by how fervently he criticizes "sources."

Second thing, it's good that Bobert admits he gets his news from a very limited bandwidth. That's progress, being able to admit your narrowmindedness. And it explains things like his asinine statements about Obama ending torture and not being to close a torture camp because "the other party" won't let him. That's so ridiculous, but at least we can now see how Bobert reaches his ill-informed conclusions--he relies on 2-3 sources he trusts. They're mega-media outlets, too. Bad sources. Tailored "news."