BS: It's global warming, stupid!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:33 PM

Some deeper, and broader science on ocean acidification, for those who like it:)
Ocean acidification

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:16 PM

makes you wonder what's up with the calcium & magnesium in oceanic water that would be binding with the bicarbonate.

the burning of fossil fuels releases carbon that has been out of circulation for 400 million years or so... talk about too much of a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:39 PM

Interesting Qs and As from the European Project on Ocean Acidification:



Science Qs and As on ocean acidification

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:58 PM

gotta love the reference to ocean acdification being counterintuative ... :D

took the words right out of my mouth, since my course work in oceanography was done back in the early '80's... and I deal more with acid rain effects on inland freshwater bodies & terrestrial habitats.

so much data... so little time

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 03:37 PM

Yes, acid rain impacts in freshwater presents quite a diferent scenario from ocean acidification. It is quite a complex equasion, one that seems to have raised its head in the science community in recent years. Fortunately, there are excellent international grade scientists working cooperatively on it, and relatively good data sets to draw information from.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:03 PM

ALEC has made inroads in North Carolina to sabotage bills in the congress to enable
alternative energy sources.

You can go into detail on scientific jargon but the fact remains that world scientists agree that global warming is real. I would trust their opinion over distracting pseudo-scientific statements.

It's not just King Coal, it's fracking, strontium 90 and other chemicals being deposited into the atmosphere that is making our planet a wasteland.

Ice caps are melting. Coral reefs are disappearing. Dead zones in oceans are appearing.
The Canada XL Pipeline will add to the global warming and ecological destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 03:28 AM

You can go into detail on scientific jargon but the fact remains that world scientists agree that global warming is real. I would trust their opinion over distracting pseudo-scientific statements.
Or, to put it more accurately:
You can go into detail on scientific jargon but the fact remains that many/most world scientists agree that global warming is real some, but not all also agree that it is caused by the acts of men. I would trust their opinion over distracting pseudo-scientific statements.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 07:00 AM

sgeek... "you know work WITH nature kinds of things. why keep installing pavement that increases runoff and flooding issues when you can use a combination of geogrids or other methods that are then interplanted with carbon dioxide, water absorbing vegetation?"

Odd (amazing?) how far this technology has come in the last 35 years. That's about how long ago I did a term paper on soil reinforcment. During my presentation, while talking away, I spread a thin layer of sand over a single sheet of newspaper and repated this several times, rolled it all up, twisted the ends such that it looked like a joint (a crowd pleaser), placed it between two chair seats and, while delivering my final words and thank yous, stood on one foot on the middle of the "joint" ending with the words, "It's shearly resistable."

Hey! Engineergeeks laughed at it.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: sciencegeek
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 07:39 AM

my dad was in construction & I would ask him why you'd see perfectly good material burned instead of being saved for other jobs.

The answer... it's cheaper than the effort to do that. It was an early WTF? moment for me. Why not just give it away? We tolerate way too much waste.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:07 PM

"Anybody who starts a discussion with a heading such as:
"It's global warming, stupid!"
is immediately, and unconditionally, refusing to accept that any contra arguments may have any merit. As such, to attempt to put any reasonable arguments (unless they support the original posting) is pointless."

First of all, the statement comes from New York's Mayor Bloomberg. Second, there are no reasonable contra arguments that have any merit whatsoever. This is a crucial issue and supposed "contra arguments' are given mainly by Global Warming deniers who work for energy companies. It's a clear cut issue and is obscured by those who have a corporate agenda, usually paid "science shills" to obstruct information on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:37 PM

34 posts in you attribute the "quotation"? Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 07:55 PM

The Australian Bureau of Meteorology is the Australian Government's department for weather monitoring. The Bureau website states that it has a responsibility to provide the correct information to the public and decision makers. It states that Australia's climate is changing, and that Australia and the globe are experiencing rapid climate change. Since the middle of the 20th century, Australian temperatures have, on average, risen by about 1°C with an increase in the frequency of heatwaves and a decrease in the numbers of frosts and cold days.
more here ...

Yesterday we had our hottest day in Sydney since the 1930s - it was 46 degrees celsius, tho near the airport it was 49 degrees.
That's between 115 - 120 degrees for those of you in fahreheit, temperaturtes normally only experienced in the desert.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 11:30 AM

2012 was the hottest day on record.

Australia is burning up.

Ice caps are going fast in Arctic.

The Keystone XL Pipeline will be one of the world's biggest polluters and responsible for more C02 emissions worldwide.

Game Over

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 11:34 AM

It's not that Global Warming makes all the weather hot. It's that it makes extreme weather circumstances involving snowstorms, floods, tornados, hurricanes, droughts and rising sea levels.

It's part of a larger picture of the energy companies destroying our environment through carbon pollution, nuclear waste, fracking (chemicals in the ground causing contamination), strontium 90 in the air, acid rain, mountaintop removal, and don't forget the Great Dust Storm of 1935.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 04:03 PM

Woody Guthrie was probably the first environmental ecco-singer bringing attention to the Dust Bowl. Ken Burns film is a wonderful document and shows pix of how devastating that was. That film should be a wake-up call to what can actually happen to our planet if we ignore it the way the cattlemen and farmers did in those days.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 10:31 AM

global warming is real. What the deniers avoid is discussing the reasons, it is easier to deny.

Now would anyone care to identify the root cause? Global warming is the symptom.

Is is the West's profligacy ? (with others following at a rate of knots)

Or is it the size of human population? Think about it - less people, less waste, less polution.

So the answer is yes and yes. The solution to both is not possible unless you count war and pestilence - and we have that already. Increasing the cost of anything will sure focus minds.

eg How many Mudcatters repair socks? I don't. Repair knickers? I do when the elastic goes. Do you epair brooms, torn clothes, etc etc? Repair & recycle is all very well but here in the West we are wedded to the throwaway society. The items we buy are designed NOT to be repaired. If we recycled and repaired any more we would have a recession which implies more R & R, more recession, more R & R - result depression. Yoof today are not educated in R & R by and large.

Even I have to declare defeat often. I repair headphones here at Stroud FM (we are all volunteers) but most idiots would leave them broken and complain, or buy their own personal pair and guard them closer than their supply of Viagra. IE buy, -
repair ?? they can't even get started on that.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:27 PM

There are many corporate global warming deniers such as the Koch Brothers who have a greedy investment in oil and coal. The nuclear industry is attempting to say that they have a clean alternative which is a bogus claim.

There is tremendous opposition to Arctic drilling and the Keystone XL. This is very heartening.

This is an issue that many don't want to face but it is tied into economic factors like jobs and corporate profits. It's a larger issue than just coal and CO2 emissions because it involves the poisoning of groundwater through fracking and factory farming. All these issues add up to the planet being ruined by mankind's negligence and unwillingness to face the consequences of this behavior.

If this issue is buried by the media and ignored by the public, we as a planet are in for some rough times ahead.

Greenland's ice has practically been depleted. Water has gone into the ground and mixed with decaying underground vegetation which is producing gas that goes back into the atmosphere compounding the C02 problem.

An interesting book I would recommend is Bobby Kennedy Jr.'s "Crimes Against Nature".

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:12 AM

One problem is that the human race is very good at getting used to things. So, here in the UK, for example, our countryside has been severely damaged by agriculture and development - but people have got used to it and don't notice it any more (especially now when many people just drive through it). Similarly, in a few years time, what is now considered abnormal weather will become the norm. People will adapt, in the short term, and still cling to the ludicrous fiction that our planet is a bottomless barrel, containing infinte, endlessly exploitable riches - but the 'big crunch' must come soon or later. I suspect that, for our species, there won't be any long term.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:30 AM

Article about the heat in Oz

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 12:31 PM

"Greenland's ice has practically been depleted."

Bit of an over-exaggeration there methinks, and that doesn't help when we're trying to convince the deniers we have a problem (I know it's still there because I flew over it last year and it is immense).

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 12:54 PM

"We will respond to the threat of climate change, knowing that the failure to do so would betray our children and future generations. Some may still deny the overwhelming judgment of science, but none can avoid the devastating impact of raging fires, and crippling drought, and more powerful storms. The path towards sustainable energy sources will be long and sometimes difficult. But America cannot resist this transition; we must lead it." — President Barack Obama, from his second inaugural address

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:45 AM

thanks for posting the article, Peter, it's good to see that people in other countries are aware we're frying here.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 03:37 AM

"Greenland's ice has practically been depleted."
Another way of making the situation sound worse than it is. I had to check the online dictionaries, and, sure enough, the word did not mean quite what I thought:
Deplete: To decrease the fullness of; use up or empty out.
So a slight reduction in ice coverage can be described as depleted (a reduction in the fullness) but most people will read it as meaning 'emptied out' i.e. all gone.
The use of 'sloppy' language may be accidental, or may be a deliberate ploy.

In response to my comment:
"Anybody who starts a discussion with a heading such as:
"It's global warming, stupid!" is immediately, and unconditionally, refusing to accept that any contra arguments may have any merit. As such, to attempt to put any reasonable arguments (unless they support the original posting) is pointless."
Stringsinger states:
First of all, the statement comes from New York's Mayor Bloomberg. Second, there are no reasonable contra arguments that have any merit whatsoever.
Firstly, what are mayor Bloomberg's scientific credentials?
Secondly, thank you for confirming my comment about your not accepting that there can be any valid contra arguments. A closed mind is not a scientific mind!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:54 AM

"First of all, the statement comes from New York's Mayor Bloomberg. Second, there are no reasonable contra arguments that have any merit whatsoever.
Firstly, what are mayor Bloomberg's scientific credentials?
Secondly, thank you for confirming my comment about your not accepting that there can be any valid contra arguments. A closed mind is not a scientific mind! "

Once again a half truth is used to support denial....

If the title had read "It's Gravity, Stupid" would you have felt the need to question it??? And there are quite a few questions about just what is gravity and "gravitational forces", even now... though the basic outline was formulated back in the 1600's by Newton.

Anything that requires people to question ( and actually consider changing) their ingrained habits is met with opposition that seems to be as ingrained as the habits themselves.

The so called environmental movement was actually started decades before the first "Earth Day" and environmental protection is still being attacked and undermined by those who feel they can "profit more" from less regulation.

It is true that many regulations are based on poorly crafted laws that were passed by unscientifically trained people who are also influenced by various lobbys. But even the most ardent against environmental protection DO NOT install their toilets in their kitchens... so they do know better on some level.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:55 AM

"unscientifically trained people"... meant to type people not rained in the sciences... but now I realize that I was actually correct the first time...

rote memorization is NOT scientific... nor is spitting out answers from the end of each chapter... even of science textbooks... because the answers are only as good as the current research and may very well change in the course of your career, much less your lifetime.

and the education that many people receive is not designed to encourage thinking too deeply about things, but rather to accept the "norm" and spit back facts without really understanding the context of those "facts".

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:54 PM

gack!!! too many typos & I'll leave it at that.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM

Attached is background information (fact sheet) on another variable/unknown that is related to changes in climate (aka, global warming)- Potential impatt/changes in the Global Conveyor Belt.


Potential changes in Thermohaline Circulation?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Rumncoke
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 09:55 AM

The amount of CO2 in the atmosphere has gone up about 80 parts per million since I started in junior school.

I am going to be 62 this year, if I live long enough.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 10:08 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/02/01/report-show-un-admitting-solar-activity-may-play-significant-role-in-global/


Maybe someone who disagrees with this can tell me why the recent changes in the Martian ice cap and the Great Red Spot on Jupiter? I keep asking, but have only been told it is man-made CO2 ( even though water vapor and methane are far more effective greenhouse gasses.) that is somehow entirely responsible.

One has to wonder who is making money of getting power from the "Global Warming" situation.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 10:22 AM

From: GUEST,sciencegeek - PM
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:54 AM

Anything that requires people to question ( and actually consider changing) their ingrained habits is met with opposition that seems to be as ingrained as the habits themselves.

How about the ingrained habits that some on here have being unwilling to question the facts put forward by the climate change industry?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 12:02 PM

the "climate change industry"????   what climate change industry?

The petrochemical industry has been around for over a century... the coal industry far longer than that. Global warming has only been identified as an issue in the past few decades... you want to tell me who started this industry? A number of start up companies that have formed to make products for sustainable energy is hardly in the same league. They can't afford the lobbyists... yet.

The "facts" that the scientific community relies upon are those that are published in peer reviewed journals.   and if the "facts" presented are found to be unrealistic or the hypotheses are not testable, then they don't hold up and are discarded or debunked.

And the more supporting evidence that is found from unrelated fields is that much more compelling and provides additional avenues of investigation. Good science is based upon well reasoned questions and the methods used to answer those questions... not making wild statements and then seeing who can argue the loudest. That's for the faith based crowd... who never met a fact they couldn't ignore if it upset their belief system.   

"Three great forces rule the world: STUPIDITY, FEAR and GREED."
Albert Einstein

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:41 PM

I am scared. I have two friends, both with "hard" science doctorates, who deny both climate change and warming. They are both Libertarians who also believe that doing nothing is sufficient because "This is just a natural cycle and will self correct itself." Of course, they believe they and/or their descendants will be around after the correction takes place.

Saw this on one of my newsletters today:

http://www.climatecentral.org/gallery/graphics/warming-winters-in-the-us

Of course, one of my friends' points is that anything we do will have minimal or nil effects.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: pdq
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:06 PM

"I am scared. I have two friends, both with "hard" science doctorates, who deny both climate change and warming." ~ EBarnacle


Too bad you dont' simply listen to them. They are correct.

I have a degree in hard science and I know nobody who believes the GW hawkers except for a few who do so for political reasons.

The change in temperature is actually quite little in the last 150 years or so: 0.7 degress C.

Vagaries is the Earths rotation, revolution around the Sun and changes in Sun's energy output explain it all.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: sciencegeek
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 06:19 PM

"The "facts" that the scientific community relies upon are those that are published in peer reviewed journals."

Sorry... but I also have a degree in the "hard sciences"... double major actually... and I have long maintained that we are in an inter- glacial period... based on the cycles that been going on for the past few million years.

That being said... the facts include plenty of data concerning environmental effects caused by human activity, in addition to "natural processes" that go on regardless. Global warming is causing changes to the environment and we need to figure out how to deal with it... other than sticking your head in the sand or up your arse. These are the "interesting times" referred to in that famous oriental curse.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 07:06 PM

I suspect "dueling degrees" won't get anyone any closer to understanding the science - science which few or any here directly participate in. There are planty of people with solid PHD's, plus years of data and experience trying to analyse a mass of current and historic data to come up with some answers that fit.

Fortunately, advances in technology are providing more and better data. Unfortunately, this area of science will likely face cutbacks in many nations, as governments try and deal with their deficits.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: sciencegeek
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 04:43 AM

Too true, Ed. A degree is not proof of continuing involvement in scientific advancement... anymore than having a passport is proof that one is a world traveler.

A common joke in college was of professors who spent four years writing their thesis and the next forty defending it. Good science involves asking more questions and dealing with new evidence. Figuring out the mechanisms involved because that is where the answers will be found.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:15 AM

What might help to even out the discussion to the status of reasoned discourse, would be persuading BB and company to broaden their sources of information beyond the online pages of that well respected fount of scientific knowledge...(NOT!).......FOX NEWS?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 10:13 AM

The peer-reviewed literature indicates that for at least the last 400 years (when we have direct observations), solar irradiance has closely tracked with average global climate indicators. Duh. Earth gets nearly all of its energy from the sun.

BUT! This close tracking for hundreds of years fails starting in about 1975. For the last 35 or so years, irradiance has been declining while global average temperature has increased. This is powerful evidence for non-natural climate change.

You can read the journal article for yourself here:
http://www.mps.mpg.de/dokumente/publikationen/solanki/c153.pdf





PS
Can somebody please explain to me how I can get rich on this GW scam?
So far, I have not made a dime off of it, but if Fox is to be believed, I am missing the boat - there's a lot of money in this gig.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 10:28 AM

DonT,

I don't suppose you would want to come to Goddard (Space Flight Center) and tell us what we are supposed to believe on your say-so.

Some of us have questions that narrow minded individuals such as yourself ignore- such as why the Red Spot is significantly changing after 400 years of observation, and the Martian ice caps are shrinking. If you ignore that, then you can certainly postulate man-made causes for GW- BUT YOU DO NOT PROVE IT AS FACT.

Tell me, what have you published recently in climatology, since you do not allow any opinions that differ with yours to be considered?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 11:33 AM

"Can somebody please explain to me how I can get rich on this GW scam?
So far, I have not made a dime off of it, but if Fox is to be believed, I am missing the boat - there's a lot of money in this gig."

I think Al Gore's done very well out of it!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 11:34 AM

The idea that Mars is also suffering global warming (and therefore Earth's global warming must be a solar sytem wide phenomenon) is based primarily on the work of Lori Fenton in 2007. Read it here:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7136/abs/nature05718.html

Fenton and co-authors looked at composite photos of Mars from 1977 and 1999 and calculated the global average albedo - finding a decrease that could be interpreted as a warming trend of 0.65 degrees over 22 years.

BUT! These photos are snapshots - showing two instants 22 years apart. Impossible to separate weather from climate with just two photos. Imagine looking at a Northern hemisphere winter picture of Earth in 1977, and northern hemisphere summer picture in 1999. Will they be different? Of course! Will the differences say anything meaningful about climate? Of course not! Seasonal fluctuations are large than global trends (on Mars and Earth).

Trying to disprove anthropogenic global warming on Earth by claiming that there is non-anthropogenic warming on Mars fails on two levels: 1) there is no empirical evidence for warming on Mars, and 2) The climate drivers and sensitivity on Mars are not well understood, but we know they are very different from Earth's (e.g. Mars has little atmosphere, and no macrofauna or macroflora).

It is just silly to think you can argue against anthropogenic global climate change on Earth (where we have abundant data and continuous measurments of many proxies over long periods of time) by citing global warming on Mars (which is based on two snapshots). If one claims that the science regarding Earth's climate is not settled, you can't support this by citing the far less constrained science regarding Mars' climate.

And on to Jupiter...we know even less about climate change, climate drivers, and climate sensitivity on Jupiter than we do for Mars! See above. It's an even sillier argument.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 12:13 PM

Al Gore is no scientist.
How can a scientist get rich on this?
Help me out here - two kids in college!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 01:22 PM

"Mars has little atmosphere, and no macrofauna or macroflora"

More crucially, Mars lacks oceans!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:02 PM

Excellent point

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:05 PM

in 9th grade Earth Science back in 1965, Continental Drift was mentioned and scoffed almost in the same breath. Then the Glomar Challenger was launched and new information was obtained from the sea floor. They didn't even have textbooks out in 1969 when I took Geology 101 that covered the discoveries that eventually became Plate Tectonics.

When I took Marine Geology almost ten years later, I had to raise my hand early on & 'fess up that what I had been taught as an undergrad was completely different from what he was casually discussing and ask for a quick update. He was a good sport and gave athumbnail sketch of where the field had gone in the past decade.

No one blinks an eye now when discussing "Continental Drift"...

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:44 PM

""Tell me, what have you published recently in climatology, since you do not allow any opinions that differ with yours to be considered?""

Nothing at all, since I am not a climatologist. I am, however, an avid reader of publications much more credible than Fox News, and there is too much evidence for, and too little against, a man made element in climate change.

As to your questions re Jupiter and Mars, I believe that the only realistic conclusion to be drawn from those changes is that they are not man made. There is no evidence as to what they are either, so you would need to demonstrate the relevance of your question, before expecting your thoughts on it to be considered.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: gnu
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 07:49 PM

I am gonna suggest something that all of you global swarmers can do. Even tho I know my post will be completely ignored. Talked about it before but, hey, gnu's... whatever???

Ya wanna help reduce the foot human footprint... here's a start... demand legislation that requires longer warranty periods on goods of all types.

Let's take a... fridge. One year parts and labour UNLESS ya buy an extended warranty. WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT? Yer sellin me a FRIDGE that might not last more than a year? SERIOUSLY? Fuck me? Fuck you! I want a 50 year warranty because I care about global warming. Fridges and freezers and furnaces and.... used to be built to a 50 year design life... now it's ABOUT 7 years and might fail sooner?

And before anyone posts that I am dreaming... I am an engineer who designs shit and my clients get to choose how much they wanna spend on the life cycle costs... a 50 year fridge is NO different than the shit I design. I got a great story about that. I might come back to this thread and tell it after I crack an ale.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: sciencegeek
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:58 AM

you are quite correct, gnu    the Madison Avenue scheme of planned obsolescence has backfired badly.... at least as a sustainable practice. Like any ponzi scheme it made a number of people crazy rich... and left the rest holding the bag.

But I think it needs to go further than that... design home item that can last AND run off the grid. Generate power to run industry & business that are more regular & predictable with a smaller output for residential use.

And while we're at it... get rid of the excessive packaging that is a waste of resources & landfill space. Make it mandatory that manufacturers have to "take back" their products at "end of life" and see how fast things change. Fat chance on Congress passing that.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:24 PM

""And while we're at it... get rid of the excessive packaging that is a waste of resources & landfill space. Make it mandatory that manufacturers have to "take back" their products at "end of life" and see how fast things change. Fat chance on Congress passing that.""

YES, YES and YES!

All that Gnu said and all of yours SG.

We have rules in the UK that companies selling electrical goods must offer disposal of what they are replacing (e.g. sell you a fridge and take away your old one for proper disposal or recyling).

It hasn't yet persuaded them to make longer lasting goods, but as the price of disposal goes sky high, it might.

We just have to wait and see, and hope that they aren't doing as one UK waste disposal company did, sending what should have been recycled to landfill in France.

That was really dirty, akin to throwing your trash into your neighbour's garden.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 03:34 PM

the curse of typing not wordprocessing... hit the enter key to go to the next line.... NOT!!!!!

anyhow, as I would have said so elequently before... as long as industry & business can pass on the costs to the consumer... and ultimately society as a whole... they will do so. Create some enormous package for a tiny SD card... so it can put out on display & harder to steal... instead of having them behind a counter & pay a minimum wage sales clerk to handle. If you have to do that to sell cigarettes, then do for other high price small items.

or how about using solar batteries to keep power to your electronic gear... you know, that little red light that sips power so you can use all those stupid remotes that come with everything.

or my real peeve... you have a stove that has a piezoelectric ignitor, but needs to be pluged in to work... WTF??? the bloody things were first designed to be used on portable camp stoves that were off the grid!!! OMG ... is it so hard to turn on the gas & push in the ignitor button??!

we could have a whole thread dedicated to simple sustainable ways to do things...