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BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?

Songwronger 15 Jan 13 - 10:54 PM
Ron Davies 15 Jan 13 - 11:14 PM
Don Firth 15 Jan 13 - 11:58 PM
Songwronger 16 Jan 13 - 12:10 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jan 13 - 12:31 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 12:31 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 12:35 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 12:37 AM
GUEST,marks (on the road) 16 Jan 13 - 02:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Jan 13 - 06:28 AM
Rapparee 16 Jan 13 - 07:25 AM
bobad 16 Jan 13 - 07:52 AM
artbrooks 16 Jan 13 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,marks (on the road) 16 Jan 13 - 08:40 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 08:50 AM
Wesley S 16 Jan 13 - 08:54 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 09:23 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 09:34 AM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 09:40 AM
Ebbie 16 Jan 13 - 09:44 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Jan 13 - 09:56 AM
wysiwyg 16 Jan 13 - 09:58 AM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 10:03 AM
Midchuck 16 Jan 13 - 10:09 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 10:27 AM
Little Hawk 16 Jan 13 - 11:19 AM
Little Hawk 16 Jan 13 - 11:27 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 16 Jan 13 - 11:33 AM
Amos 16 Jan 13 - 11:37 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 11:43 AM
Bill D 16 Jan 13 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Jan 13 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 12:04 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Jan 13 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 16 Jan 13 - 12:16 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jan 13 - 12:22 PM
beardedbruce 16 Jan 13 - 12:26 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 12:33 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 12:38 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Jan 13 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 12:43 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jan 13 - 12:45 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 12:54 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 12:59 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jan 13 - 01:04 PM
Wesley S 16 Jan 13 - 01:07 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Jan 13 - 01:11 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 01:18 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 01:30 PM
DMcG 16 Jan 13 - 01:58 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jan 13 - 02:41 PM
Don Firth 16 Jan 13 - 04:17 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jan 13 - 04:36 PM
Don Firth 16 Jan 13 - 04:55 PM
kendall 16 Jan 13 - 05:02 PM
Don Firth 16 Jan 13 - 05:26 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 05:40 PM
artbrooks 16 Jan 13 - 06:47 PM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Jan 13 - 06:54 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 06:55 PM
pdq 16 Jan 13 - 07:02 PM
Elmore 16 Jan 13 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,Kendall 16 Jan 13 - 07:11 PM
Wesley S 16 Jan 13 - 07:12 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Jan 13 - 07:57 PM
pdq 16 Jan 13 - 08:49 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 08:52 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 09:07 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 09:27 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 09:29 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 09:32 PM
Ebbie 16 Jan 13 - 09:54 PM
artbrooks 16 Jan 13 - 10:05 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 10:11 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 13 - 10:20 PM
Songwronger 16 Jan 13 - 11:20 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 11:29 PM
Songwronger 16 Jan 13 - 11:38 PM
Songwronger 16 Jan 13 - 11:41 PM
Don Firth 17 Jan 13 - 01:30 AM
Ebbie 17 Jan 13 - 02:22 AM
GUEST 17 Jan 13 - 02:45 AM
Joe Offer 17 Jan 13 - 02:50 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jan 13 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Lighter 17 Jan 13 - 07:29 AM
Wesley S 17 Jan 13 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Lighter 17 Jan 13 - 08:19 AM
artbrooks 17 Jan 13 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,999 17 Jan 13 - 09:13 AM
bobad 17 Jan 13 - 09:42 AM
ollaimh 17 Jan 13 - 11:35 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 17 Jan 13 - 11:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jan 13 - 12:04 PM
frogprince 17 Jan 13 - 12:40 PM
Elmore 17 Jan 13 - 12:49 PM
Stilly River Sage 17 Jan 13 - 02:29 PM
catspaw49 17 Jan 13 - 03:30 PM
Don Firth 17 Jan 13 - 03:42 PM
irishenglish 17 Jan 13 - 05:52 PM
Songwronger 17 Jan 13 - 06:06 PM
irishenglish 17 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM
artbrooks 17 Jan 13 - 06:21 PM
Songwronger 17 Jan 13 - 06:50 PM
Don Firth 17 Jan 13 - 06:56 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 17 Jan 13 - 08:53 PM
Songwronger 17 Jan 13 - 09:18 PM
GUEST,999 17 Jan 13 - 09:23 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 13 - 09:39 PM
Songwronger 17 Jan 13 - 09:52 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jan 13 - 10:02 PM
Songwronger 17 Jan 13 - 10:58 PM
Ebbie 18 Jan 13 - 12:48 AM
Joe Offer 18 Jan 13 - 01:58 AM
kendall 18 Jan 13 - 08:05 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jan 13 - 10:02 AM
artbrooks 18 Jan 13 - 10:31 AM
GUEST 18 Jan 13 - 05:44 PM
gnu 18 Jan 13 - 05:56 PM
kendall 19 Jan 13 - 06:53 AM
frogprince 19 Jan 13 - 09:04 AM
Bobert 19 Jan 13 - 09:18 AM
Ron Davies 19 Jan 13 - 11:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jan 13 - 06:51 AM
Songwronger 14 Apr 13 - 11:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Apr 13 - 11:50 PM
Don Firth 14 Apr 13 - 11:58 PM
Songwronger 15 Apr 13 - 12:14 AM
Don Firth 15 Apr 13 - 12:32 AM
Amos 15 Apr 13 - 01:08 AM
sciencegeek 15 Apr 13 - 03:28 AM
kendall 15 Apr 13 - 07:40 AM
Rapparee 15 Apr 13 - 09:30 AM
Jack the Sailor 15 Apr 13 - 09:53 AM

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Subject: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:54 PM

Tomorrow, Wednesday, January 16, 2013. The Obama white house has said it will have some decisions on executive actions about guns in the U.S.

Obama's gotten away with running guns to Mexican drug cartels, declaring he has the right to disappear and kill Americans without any overview, and force the poor to buy health insurance or go to prison. So he feels pretty full of himself right now. He could order us all to bow down and surrender our weapons to Caesar tomorrow.

Of course, that would be a violation of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but then he never really swore to uphold that constitution. He and judge Roberts did the worst piece of theater in history when they "accidentally flubbed" Obama's swearing in, so technically he never took the oath. He's not required to abide by the constitution.

At any rate, he'll probably yap about "the children" tomorrow while he takes away their parents' ability to defend them, and then the FBI will dress up some agents as KKK and fire off some weapons, and Obama will shed a crocodile tear and say he has to send in the troops while he boards a jet to Hawaii.

That's how I see him starting the civil war, at least. He and Clinton and the Bushes before him have put in a lot of work to bring us to this point, and now Obama will play the Lincolnesque role. Should be interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 11:14 PM

Wronger, you need to stop imagining you're the next Ludlum.   Or up your medications.

Truth to tell, you do show a lively imagination.    Maybe you should look into writing political fiction--but you'd probably have contact a vanity press outfit.

By the way, watch out for that fluoridated water--you can never tell what the government might put in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 11:58 PM

Songwronger, where in hell do you pick up this stuff?

Wackydoodle!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:10 AM

Obama does run guns to Mexico. He and Eric Holder.

Obama does claim the right to kill and disappear Americans. He says the National Defense Authorization Act gives him the authority.

Obamacare gives the IRS the power to levy "taxes" on people who are non-compliant with the act.

Acts of despotism and disregard for humanity.

Look up the video of Obama's swearing in ceremony for term #1. He never said the words. Roberts "stumbled," then Obama "stumbled," with the end result being that the oath was never taken.

Obama has said he will violate the second amendment by taking "executive action" to restrict gun ownership in America.

Again, an act of despotism, and totally illegal according to our laws.

Also, the the FBI has a long history of infiltrating and provoking groups. And Obama is constantly compared to Lincoln. And his immediate predecessors have incrementally chipped away at our rights and freedoms.

There's nothing at all imaginative about what I wrote. It's merely observational.

In my state, by the way, our legislature is already moving to negate any new "actions" Obama may take against firearms. Mandatory 5 year jail time for anyone who attempts to enforce any new rules from King Obama, as the representative who introduced the bill called him. Also, selected school employees are now undergoing firearms training around the state. We're going to end the "gun free zone" status in our schools. And the bad guys won't know who's armed--could be the principal, a teacher, a janitor...who knows?

But tomorrow Obama will do what he can to disarm America, and start a war to boot, so he can put it down with regret. Just like ol Honest Abe, who's arms in the Lincoln Memorial rest on bundled fasci, the symbol of fascism.

More imaginitive minds than mine have already scripted what's about to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:31 AM

Well, Songwronger..Pretty interesting scenario...and I can see where you're coming from....There are a whole lot of people who hold that view...as for me...I'm just going to have to play music and compose some more pieces. Suppose they threw a Civil War..and nobody was interested??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:31 AM

So when did you say your first novel is coming out?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:35 AM

Or maybe I should say:


Wackos to the right of us
Wackos to the left of us
Into the valley of wackos rode the (few--much fewer than 100) sensible Mudcatters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:37 AM

So as you can probably tell, it's a bit less than 600, certainly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,marks (on the road)
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:38 AM

But to be fair, President Obama does seem to rely on Execuitive Orders more than on Legislation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:28 AM

Given that the Repugnant Party in Congress simply block all attempts at legislation, what other choice does he have, Marks(on the road)?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:25 AM

I'm not worried. There won't be. A bunch of screwballs will yell and scream that their "rights" are being violated (by a black illegal alien Muslim socialist), just as they have been.

Since these whacko-roonies talk to each other -- loudly and frequently -- don't you think that the FBI and the Secret Service know all about them? A call for "civil war" would be treason and the US has the death penalty for that.

The White House responded to 125,000 people who signed a petition for seccession yesterday (I believe). They said that the Supreme Court decided that issue right after the Civil War -- once you're in the US as a State you can't just up and leave.

Notice the numbers: let's say that 125,000 people are will to pick up guns and fight for "their rights." That's a mighty small percentage of 317,000,000 and THEY probably have no idea of dying dead for their "cause."

Naw, I'm not worried.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:52 AM

And They're coming to take me away Ha Ha
They're coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha
to the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time,
and I'll be happy to see those
nice young men in their clean white coats
and they're coming to take me away ha ha


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:58 AM

I love to start my day with humor...SW beats both Dilbert and Baldo, hands down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,marks (on the road)
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:40 AM

Don, I still think there is a requirement to follow the constitutional process. New York has a Republican majority in the State Senate and they passed sweeping firearms law changes in 2 days.
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:50 AM

So now SW can tell us why it's his constitutional right--and essential to life as we know it--that he should be able to get cartridges of more than 7 bullets.

After all, you can never tell when the deer will start to shoot back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:54 AM

"Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?"

Yes - and for your own safety you should leave the country NOW. And don't take your computer or else "they" will use it to track you down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:54 AM

magazines, not cartridges


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:23 AM

Will it come to be called "The War of the NRA Aggression"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:34 AM

"leave the country now".

Or prepare to be called to show up for militia drill--since the NRA requires it, we're going back to a strict constructionist interpretation of the Constitution. First session is this coming Saturday. Hope you're in good shape--you may be asked to jog with your weapon.

Also, the British have been seen in the vicinity of Canada and you may be required to leave your state in order to meet them--and you may be away from home until the threat has been dealt with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:40 AM

Wrong-man is the Lyndon LaRouche of Mudcat... Entertaining but lacks credibility because of his blind hatred of Obama...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:44 AM

President Obama has used executive orders less than any president in US history. Check it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:56 AM

It's a bit like going to Bedlam in the old days to watch the loonies


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:58 AM

This is overtly racist, tho Songwronger may not feel it is so:

the FBI will dress up some agents as KKK and fire off some weapons, and Obama will shed a crocodile tear and say he has to send in the troops while he boards a jet to Hawaii.

That's how I see him starting the civil war, at least...


To argue his "points" on any other basis is to miss the essential wrongness of the perspective actually driving them.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:03 AM

When I was a social worker working primarily with clients who had mental illnesses of one variety or another I learned an important lesson and that is that arguing with crazy people is futile...

Sometimes I have to remind myself of that when I read the kinds of things that Wronger writes here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:09 AM

The White House responded to 125,000 people who signed a petition for seccession yesterday (I believe). They said that the Supreme Court decided that issue right after the Civil War -- once you're in the US as a State you can't just up and leave.

The question that has always bothered me is, if it was legal for the US to leave the British Empire when they wished to, why was it illegal for the South to leave the US when THEY wished to? The only difference that I can see is that the South lost the Civil War, but the US won the Revolution (or maybe the BE had too many other wars going to spend the money and time to win it). But if that's the only difference, then law is simply a matter of superior force. In which case, each of us needs as many guns and as much ammunition as he or she can assemble.

P.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:20 AM

The parallel with the Revolution is Vietnam--in domestic opposition to the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:27 AM

Guns, schmuns.

Be the first on your block
To get rid of the Glock;
At the end of your life
Think NewCleeUr ® device!


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:19 AM

"If it was legal for the US to leave the British Empire when they wished to, why was it illegal for the South to leave the US when THEY wished to? The only difference that I can see is that the South lost the Civil War, but the US won the Revolution (or maybe the BE had too many other wars going to spend the money and time to win it). But if that's the only difference, then law is simply a matter of superior force. In which case, each of us needs as many guns and as much ammunition as he or she can assemble."

Precisely! ;-D It's always a matter of superior force, and who holds the field of battle at the end of the campaign. The victors make the rules and the victors decide what's "right", "just", and allowable. And thus it always has been throughout history.

This is why despots, hypocrites, scoundrels, and heartless imperialists often get to parade around grandly before their own public and present (and even imagine) themselves as champions of freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:27 AM

However, I'm not making a comment to the effect that we should all have a personal arsenal of heavy weaponry. Nope. I can't see any good reason for the general public to have military-style assault rifles in their homes.

What I was commenting on was merely this: the victors throughout history have made the rules and the judgements of right and wrong, regardless of whether the victors were nice guys...or despots...or something in between. They always think they're in the right. Just ask them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:33 AM

"...Obama will do what he can to disarm America..." Unilateral disarmament? If only....


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:37 AM

THere is another difference, Peter--the difference between "all men are created equal" and "some men are entitled to own other men".


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:43 AM

"law is simply a matter of superior force".    Sounds like the satire sign is still on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:58 AM

Top-notch, A-1, super-trolls THRIVE on ridicule. That way they know they're being heard. I wonder how many sites this one has been banned from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:59 AM

You can say that again.

Those who want to believe there's no law but jungle law, and we're living under it, seem to me to be less than adequately discerning. Try living in a jungle and get back to us.

(If any further explanation is needed, law in a democracy is a matter of force resorted to only in defense of Constitutionally recognized rights and obligations which have been accepted for the common good. Law elsewhere may vary.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:04 PM

I agree in a broad sense, Lighter, but laws are NOT applied evenly or fairly. How many bankers/industrialists.congress people are serving time because of the monster robbery they effected? There is one law for the rich and another for the poor. I mean, exactly who went to jail when people's houses were stolen from them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:09 PM

Wesley, good answer! Susan, you're exactly correct. As was Rapparee:

A bunch of screwballs will yell and scream that their "rights" are being violated

One already has, to start this thread.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:16 PM

The President is no more starting a civil war now than Lincoln started the 1861 Civil War.

It was South Carolina... a state whose main income came for the brokerage of slaves... that first declared for seccession and then started the hostilities by demanding the surrender of Fort Sumpter and later firing upon Union forces that tried to resupply the fort with food.

It was people who cared more for their own wealth than anything else that started the war. And then used the decoy cry of State's Rights to get people who didn't even own slaves to come fight for their "cause". So "state's rights" trumped "human rights" until they lost to "national interest"... and left a trail of blood that still stains our country today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:22 PM

The architects of law are often idealistic men with extremely laudable intentions, and laws are often enacted with the most laudable intentions and for a good purpose too. I was not suggesting anything to the contrary when I said that the victors of military conflicts will inevitably cast themselves as "the good guys", the "defenders of freedom", regardless of whether or not they were actually knaves, robbers, despots, and scoundrels.

They are after victory, not the triumph of law.

It's not that there is only "the law of the jungle" in this world. Hardly. It's that the jungle does what it wants to do, regardless of the law, and it justifies itself afterward when (and if) it has won the battle. If it loses, of course, then it finds itself prosecuted the by law, and that can happen too. That's the spot the Germans found themselves in at the end of WWII, but during WWII they enacted laws that made everything they were doing legal...within the borders of the Reich. In that case the law was made to serve the jungle.

The law can be made to serve either end of the moral scale...depending on which law, who enacted it, and for what purpose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:26 PM

Ebbie,

This is what I found- where did you get your numbers ( asking politely)?


EXECUTIVE ORDERS ISSUED…
Teddy Roosevelt    3
Others to FDR       NONE
FDR                        11 in 16 years
Truman                   5 in 7 years
Ike                            2 in 8 years
Kennedy                  4 in 3 years
LBJ                         4 in 5 years
Nixon                      1 in 6 years
Ford                         3 in 2 years
Carter                        3 in 4 years
Reagan                      5 in 8 years
Bush                         3 in 4 years
Clinton                      15 in 8 years
George W. Bush       62 in 8 years
Obama                   138 in 3 1/2 years!


also,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_executive_orders#George_W._Bush_.282001.E2.80.932009.29


I do not trust the first list, but the second seems to indicate that "
President Obama has used executive orders less than any president in US history. Check it out." is a false statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:27 PM

Even the idea that all wars are won on the basis of superior force is a bit facile, to say the least.

The Revolution is a perfect case in point. The British could have easily won it at several junctures.   But as I have noted, there was always a strong domestic element against the war--particularly in trading centers.   Interestingly enough the opposition also included several leading British generals--the Howes, for instance, at least one of whom said he would not take a command against the Americans.   Under royal pressure he reversed, but especially in the early years was torn between making war and negotiating peace.

If you send generals who are not convinced the war should be fought, you may not have a victorious outcome.

Even after Yorktown it is not at all clear that the British had been beaten by superior force--especially since the French had told the Americans 1781 was the last chance--and France was going bankrupt in large part because of costs helping the Americans. Washington recognized the tenuous nature of the situation, and pressed the French for further campaigns against Charleston and New York--without success.   It was the only the change in UK government which spelled the end of the war.

Self-interest is in fact the reason to determine when to end a war--and whether it is a victory or defeat.

And those who wanted trade with the US--and saw that as the UK's self-interest, rather than a continuing, draining, war, won out--over George III.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:33 PM

Y'all might want to read the following from Snopes.

Everyone stop yer cherry picking. You've been busted!


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:38 PM

And if you think the Vietnam withdrawal was on the basis of the superior force of the Vietnamese who opposed the US, I have a bridge to sell you. Where would you like your name on the bridge?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:43 PM

Don't worry about the executive orders. Look at what Dubya did with "signing orders" that basically said he wasn't going to abide by the laws he was signing. Those where a real travesty.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/signingstatements.php#axzz2IA4LvhhZ

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:43 PM

What kind of bridge?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:45 PM

"It was people who cared more for their own wealth than anything else that started the war."

Such people have started a great many wars throughout history, including, I think, a few very recent ones that we've seen in the last couple of decades.

It's quite correct that the Civil War was started in the interests of the rich elites....and fought, tragically, by the ordinary people. The vast majority of White southerners were not slave owners, they were mostly small farmers, labourers, shopkeepers, and such. They had little or no vested interest in maintaining the institution of slavery. They went out to fight primarily just to defend their own familiar home ground against "the Yankees", as people everywhere normally do when the land they live on appears to be threatened with an imminent invasion. They were used as cannon fodder by the rich slave-owning elite in the South to protect the interests of that elite, and they died by the hundreds of thousands in a fight that was not really in their own interests at all....just like most of the Germans who died at Hitler's behest. It was their natural spirit of patriotism that enabled ruling elites to send them off to war. The same thing happens now, in much the same way. Ordinary people are sent off to war by the rich and powerful, who tell them that the homeland is in danger, and they must rush out to DEFEND it. The rich and powerful stay home and issue the orders. The ordinary people kill and get killed by a similar group of ordinary people who are serving on the other side...for very similar reasons. Patriotism. Duty. Honour. And freedom. There's never been a side in war that didn't think it was fighting to protect its freedom. After all, that's what their leaders tell them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:54 PM

"It's always a matter of superior force".   Drivel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:59 PM

The preamble to the constitution lays down a general outline of the kind of United States the Founding Fathers wanted... I think we all too often forget that the rest of the document plus the amendments were and are supposed to move US closer to those ideals...

There are way too many people that are hung up on just a few words and not the spirit its entirety...

"...life, liberty and pursuit of happiness..." That's the smell test on any proposed law or any signing order... Rather than say, for instance, that the Affordable Care Act is bad because it's 900 pages, tell me what you don't like in those 900 pages... Rather than complain that Obama has used this or that number of signing statements tell me which ones you don't like and why...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:04 PM

Ron, the Vietnamese won by outlasting America's will to fight. In effect, they won that war politically and psychologically rather than on the battlefield. And they deserved to, because the USA had no business being there in the first place.

There's more than one way to win a war or skin a cat.

The South could conceivably have won the Civil War in a similar fashion...politically and psychologically...if, for example, they had won decisively at Gettysburg (which they might have). War weariness and furious draft resistance in the North was the greatest threat Lincoln faced during that war. Had the South won handily at Gettysburg, Lincoln would have lost the coming election, McLellan would have been elected in his place, and McLellan had campaigned to end the hostilities. That would have resulted in the South maintaining its existence as a separate nation. The risk of further war between North and South at some point in the future would have been great, but the USA would at least for awhile have been split into 2 separate nations living in an uneasy peace.

That's why Lee went north in 1863. He never dreamed he had the material strength or manpower to conquer the North, but he did hope to break their will to continue the war if he could score a dramatic enough victory over the Army of the Potomac on northern ground. It was a calculated risk, a throw of the dice, and it failed. Lee handled most of his battles extremely well, but he was way off his mark at Gettysburg, mainly because a long string of previous successes had made him overconfident. He had come to believe his Army of Northern Virginia was invincible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:07 PM

999 - Everyone knows that Snopes is a liberal front for the government. It's common knowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:10 PM

Nice wiggling. But "superior force " was the quote. And it's drivel. As noted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:11 PM

The laws we're talking about right now - gun laws - have every likelihood of being enforced equally.

Anyway, unequal enforcement and loophole-riddled laws of the kind 999 is talking about don't result from a direct appeal to force - which is what some say all laws are based on.

Obama's accurate remark about the illegality of Secession was beside the point, however. Many thousands of Southerners opposed Secession on legal grounds, but they were a small minority. Many Northerners were fine with it. If a maddened state legislature (or a city council) voted to secede today, then started operating as an independent nation, there'd be no peaceable way to stop them. The North fought the Civil War initially to keep the nation from breaking apart over time into potentially dozens of small, eternally squabbling rival "republics" vying for British, French, Spanish or other foreign military patronage, and to maintain its existence as the world's *only* fully constitutional republic based on (admittedly imperfect) guarantees of human rights.

If the Supreme Court had ruled Secession illegal in 1860, it would have settled nothing. No Southern state would have rejected Secession just for being unconstitutional: their point was to dump the Constitution! The South was more than ready to risk war to keep their slave-based economy and society going forever, regardless of possible consequences or political implications, and the North called their bluff.

It wasn't an argument about what was legal or illegal. It was about what kind of world Americans wanted to live in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:18 PM

Actually, LH, the South could have won the war at 1st Manassas...

Huh???

That's correct... The Union troops, along with the DC socialites who had come with their picnic baskets & blankets turned and ran... Had the Southern troops pursued them they could have enter Washington, D.C. that evening or early the next morning with little or no resistance...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:30 PM

"999 - Everyone knows that Snopes is a liberal front for the government. It's common knowledge."

Wesley, I needed a good laugh today. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:58 PM

Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?

No. However enthuasiastic gun owners may be, I don't see too many of them shooting anyone who disagrees. And for the anti-gun lobby to shoot gun owners would be even odder.

I think the word 'hyperbole' applies here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:41 PM

Yes, Bobert, you're right about 1st Manassas. We've discussed that before a few times. It was, I think, the South's greatest opportunity in that whole war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 04:17 PM

No, no, everybody, you don't understand! This is something much larger!

You see, for the past 60 to 70 years, since their scouts first discovered that earth was inhabited and had vast supplies of water compared to their home planet orbiting Wolf 359 some 7.8 light years from us, the "Wolves" have been surveying our planet (all those reported UFO sightings were real!) and laying their plans. You see, their star has dwindled to a red dwarf and is dying, so if they are to continue as a civilization, they must find a new home. And earth is the nearest habitable planet to them.

But the problem is, it's already occupied! By US!

So some years ago, a surgically altered alien was landed somewhere in the region of Mt. Shasta in California (many UFO sighting reported in that region) and he managed to blend in with other humans. His assignment was to use the cover story they invented for him, then take over control of the most powerful nation on earth. And then execute the devious plans of the Wolves.

But they did make a number of errors. Their model for an earth man was a black African. And they didn't know American history and the prejudices of the country well enough to realize that getting such a man elected to President might be difficult. Yet, armed with his superior intelligence, he managed it!

An important point: whereas humans evolved from the higher apes, the Wolves evolved from something more akin to reptiles. Think the Geico Gekko. But the surgical altering "humanized" his appearance enough for most people to accept him as human—save for the problem of his dark epidermis.   You will note in Obama's speech, his "S's" are particularly sibilant. For those aware of his true nature, this is a dead giveaway that he is actually reptilian!

His assignment is to accelerate existing wars, start new wars, and provoke civil wars in order that humans, naturally warlike, will annihilate each other and themselves.

Which will save the Wolves the bother. Then, when we are gone, they can safely move in and take over our world.

Don't you realize, Songwronger, this is much bigger and MUCH more ominous than you think it is!??

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 04:36 PM

Hey, Don, this sounds like subtle ( or no so) anti-wolf propaganda--and I didn't even need Jan to tell me so. But Defenders of Wildlife have a hard enough time as it is.

Maybe it's the Fleas who are plotting to take us over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 04:55 PM

Regarding Executive Orders:

In late summer of 1948, President Harry S. Truman was determined to integrate the American military forces. The leaders of the military were adamantly—or shall I say, militantly—opposed to desegregation and were determined to fight him on the issue.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff were gathered in the Oval Office, prepared to argue every inch of the way, stomp all over this little pipsqueak who called himself "President," and defy his efforts at integration.

Then, the door opened up, Harry S. Truman, duly elected President of the United States, walked briskly in, and as President and Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, issued Executive Order 9981—ordering that the Armed Forces be integrated.

Then turned on his heel and walked out, leaving the generals and admirals standing there with their mouths open.

I've always liked "ol' Give 'em Hell Harry." He knew where his towel was!

Sometimes, when you're dealing with a bunch of mean-spirited and spiteful obstructionists, to get done what needs to be done, that's what you have to do.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 05:02 PM

Good old Harry. I wish he could run again.

I just had an exchange with a friend who is a gun nut, and I told him I agree with every thing Obama said, I was expecting a broadside. More like a handful of corn flakes. He also agrees except the large capacity clips. I told him they have no legitimate purpose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 05:26 PM

"Hey, Don, this sounds like subtle (or not so) anti-wolf propaganda—"

Well, actually, Ron, as I said, the "Wolves" are actually reptilian and they derive their appellation from their home star, Wolf 159.

But there IS a different plot afoot against the earthly wolf (Canis lupus), but it comes from a whole different quarter. A cabal of Yorkshire terriers have been plotting for generations . . .

I'm surprised that Songwronger, as fond as he is of conspiracy theories, seemingly hasn't encountered this.

Don Firth

P. S. Ah, yes! FDR and Harry. Now, THERE were a couple of Presidents!

P. P. S. It strikes me that a deer hunter who needs a high-capacity magazine in order to get his deer is hardly what I would call a "sportsman."


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 05:40 PM

Hey, Don...

That was some fine writing up there about the lizards and wolves and stuff...

Hey, if the Wrongman hangs up his keyboard you have the stuff to jump right in there and keep the tin foil a'flowin'...

I mean, it ain't easy thinkin' like that...

Good work...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:47 PM

I had an assault rifle once. It was a .303 Enfield, with a box magazine and a long bayonet. Wish I still had it - for self defense, of course. Boy, talk about deterring burglars!


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:54 PM

I bet you didn't even have to tell 'em you had it.

Now that's deterrence!


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:55 PM

The .303 Enfield wasn't an assault rifle, art... It was bolt action which meant that you had to perform a manual task to chamber the next round...

BTW, that was what I had when I was a youngin' and I hunted with it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: pdq
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:02 PM

All this talk about assault rifles diverts people's attention from the real problem(s).

There were only 323 homocides by rifle in 2011. Total of about 9200 homocides by gun.

That includes everything from 22s to Sharpes 50 cal buffalo gun.

Besides, there is no such thing as an "assault weapon".

That term is political, not real world.

It seems to mean "something that sorta looks like an M16A1 or AK-47 but isn't".


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Elmore
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:08 PM

Another civil war. Cool.Let those states secede again. That'll save us all a lot of money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:11 PM

"Street sweeper" is more accurate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:12 PM

"Besides, there is no such thing as an "assault weapon".

Maybe as far as you're concerned. But there is now - it's now a generally accepted term by a large portion of the public. Sorry you don't like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:47 PM

I agree with pdq... The semi-automatic pistol is the main killing machine and they need to be registered and controlled...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:57 PM

> There were only 323 homocides by rifle in 2011. Total of about 9200 homocides by gun.

I like "only." Like we're supposed to feel good about the 323 and the nearly 10,000 pistol homicides your source refers to.

And never mind cases of manslaughter (some of which were plea bargains for actual murder), which presumably shouldn't count because there are even more of them.

Get real: to do nothing - or to argue that only "good guys with guns" offer protection against "bad guys with guns" - is to guarantee the maximum number of gun deaths year after year after year.

Of course, if you're fine with that....


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: pdq
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:49 PM

Thanks, Bobert,

And so I will make a concession about magazines.

I shot an M16A1 in basic training. Just on the "three-round burst" mode, never full Rock'n'Roll.

They had 20-round magazines, but either 29 or 30 (I think) were optional.

I see no reason to sell magazines for the AR-15 or similar rifles with more than 20-round capacity.

The Army can give you a 30-rounder if they want, but the military has different duties than civilians.

Either 9 or 10 rounds is fine for a handgun.

Both should be Constitutional as by the normal standard of "with reasonable restrictions".


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:52 PM

Only diff, pdq, is that I'd like to see the 10 round limit on everything...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:07 PM

How many of you have read Obama's EOs regarding "gun law changes"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:23 PM

What's a "EO", bruicie??? I've read everything the WaPo has written, which is a lot...

Where can this document be found???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:27 PM

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/01/white-house-guns-action-executive-orders-legislation

EO refers to Executive Order in this context, Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:29 PM

Oh, shit... These are going to be real long... And legalese...

Tell ya' what, brucie... I'll check 'um out tomorrow when my legalese head is workin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:32 PM

Okay, I peeked at 'um... These are probably condensed versions... I'll go thru them tomorrow...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 09:54 PM

I'm surprised at you, bb. According to www.snopes.com, as of September 12, 2012, these are the documented facts:

Presidential Executive Orders
President        Number Claimed        Actual Number

Theo Roosevelt        3        1,081
FDR        11        3,522
Harry Truman        5        907
Eisenhower        2        484
JFK        4        214
LBJ        4        325
Nixon        1        346
Ford        3        169
Carter        3        320
Reagan        5        381
G. H.W. Bush        3        166
Clinton        15        364
Dubya        62        291
Obama        923        138


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:05 PM

My point earlier was that definitions are changeable. The WW-1 Enfield was certainly an assault rifle, as defined at the time...and I recall reading in period literature what a furor there was about having a box magazine rather than having to single-load each round (think of all the ammunition those squaddies are going to waste!)...and the machine gun and tank were the weapons that were going to end all wars.

The earlier assault weapon ban defined assault weapons in a certain way; whatever is done now has to reflect 2013, not 1994.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:11 PM

Yeah, art, the times they are a'changin'... What used to be an assault rifle is today's pea-shooter...

Sad commentary...

Yo, Eb, bb specializes in posting right winged blogger who have a tendency to take facts and try to twist them into a pretzel...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:14 PM

Bobert, this is the third time I have tried to post this.

I screwed up. They are not EOs. My mistake.

The point I was trying to make is that they don't seem all that big a deal to me if that's the extent of O's gun legislation.

########################################

Ebbie, I posted a link to that about ten hours ago:

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:33 PM

But given the propensity of people not to read threads, it's as well you posted the figures. They may be a bit harder to ignore, although I certainly wouldn't count on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:20 PM

I agree, brucie... They are tinkering around the edges... So is the legislation that Obama has proposed...

But I get it...

We have to start somewhere... I mean, if we can't get anything passed then we will never get to the meat 'n taters...

Yeah, we are in a big ol' fucked up mess with these guns and the wackos who love them and hate the government, and hate black people, and hate anyone with a college degree and hate, hate, hate, hate....

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:20 PM

Well, Obama punted. Disgusting how he surrounded himself with kids for his pronouncement, while he's killing kids with drones overseas. He killed a 16-year old American boy with a drone, but then today he's out there protecting our children by grandstanding. Disgusting.

Interesting, too, how the most substantive thing he did was just brush the dust off some background checks that are already in place. Checks he couldn't pass himself, by the way, with his checkered past of Indonesian citizenship, radical family ties and a birth certificate that someone says they saw once.

I heard a clip today of Andrew Cuomo, at his State of the State address this year. He's the governor of New York. A mafia man. Honest-to-god mafioso. Ranting about a seven point plan to disarm the people of New York and leave them at the mercy of armed criminals (like his mafia buddies). Spooky speech because the crowd sounded just like the enraptured crowds in those Risenthal Triumph films, where Hitler is bellowing from his podium and being answered with sonic booms of cheering. It looks like Cuomo will be the Hitler candidate in 2016, and gun ownership will be the Jewish problem, so to speak.

At any rate, Obama just got to play little dictator today, not big dictator. Bet he's sulking right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:29 PM

Songwronger, you seem to let your dislike of a man's skin colour over-ride your sense of reason. It's not very becoming or very intelligent. I have agreed with a few of your posts in the past, but now you are sounding like a real sick man. I know that even paranoids have enemies even if they have to manufacture them, but most don't go seeking them out. Keriste, give it a rest!


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:38 PM

You folks can't defend Obama's policies, so you have to focus on his skin color. I focus on his policies, his actions, and his character. All of which suck. How does that make me a racist? That's just a rhetorical question, by the way. Couldn't care less what you think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:41 PM

Gun laws were first enacted in America, by the way, to keep blacks from owning firearms. Lots of historical documentation of this on the web.

Guns are the great equalizers. Women should carry guns to protect themselves against big hairy badmen. And if blacks are so put upon and harrassed, then they should be armed. So why do you liberals want to disarm women and blacks? Sexist. Racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 01:30 AM

Songwronger, do you have the integrity to tell the truth about who this 16-year-old American boy (American born boy) was, who his father was, and where he was and what he was doing at the time he was killed by the drone?

Which was NOT being controlled at the time by Obama, as you seem to be implying.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:22 AM

Sorry, Bruce- when I read the assertion about Obama's supposed executive orders I went looking at Snopes. Got interrupted by a phone call- had five minutes to wrap up and get downstairs. So I posted what I had found, while knowing full well that someone may well have refuted his statement.

In any case, thank you! As far as I'm concerned, passing on bad info when it could be easily checked on is almost as bad as making up the lie in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:45 AM

Im glad I live in Australia you are a sick lot over there


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:50 AM

In general, legislation sets relatively broad guidelines, and then executive orders are issued to deal the fine points of the action set forth by the law. Executive orders are like "instruction manuals," specifying how to accomplish things. I spent thirty years doing security clearance investigations under Executive Order 10450, issued in 1953 by President Eisenhower and revised and renewed many times thereafter. I suppose that many of the executive orders attributed to President Obama, are just reissuances of previous orders that have served us for years.

The executive order President Obama issued on gun control, seems to be in accord with precedents set for executive order - it simply gives specifics for enforcing existing legislation, and makes no new law itself.

The wackos will scream, but today's executive order, while welcome, isn't really anything new.

The American Presidency Project at the University of California at Santa Barbara says that Obama issued 144 executive orders in his first term. George W. Bush issued 291 in two terms.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 03:50 AM

beardedbruce: "Ebbie,
This is what I found- where did you get your numbers ( asking politely)?"

From Bobert..where else????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:29 AM

Thank you, Joe.

Those figures are entirely in accord with media reports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:37 AM

"Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?"

Started on the 15th. Today is the 17th. So - No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 08:19 AM

Conservative Republican Congressman Peter King of New York tells CNN that Obama's 23 "Executive Actions" are...

"inconsequential."

The entire supposedly blood-curdling Commie list is here. Scroll down:

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/16/obama-to-announce-gun-control-proposals-shortly/comment-page-36/

More convincing to some, however, is the fact that "Executive Action" was the title of a 1973 Hollywood thriller about covert assassins and a CIA conspiracy to take over the government by any means necessary.

Draw your own conclusions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 08:34 AM

Anybody wanna buy a tin-foil hat?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 09:13 AM

Ebbie, my remark wasn't directed at you. The people who started the BS about President Obama's EOs numbering near a thousand seem to read publications that support only what I would call very right-wing views, and to do that the publications lie, cheat and obfuscate at every opportunity. The key is to make the lie big enough and tell it often enough. The directionless will fall in line.

Songwronger, if you don't care what people think, why post your thoughts on Mudcat?

GfS: your remark was a great disappointment. Ebbie checks her information, and if you had read the Snopes article you'd be asking your political allies where THEY got their information--which Snopes proves to be highly inaccurate. The Snopes article makes more than a few people look like reactionaries at best and dupes at worst, and because I know some of those people who have misquoted 'facts' about the various EOs, it makes me wonder what drives people to win at any cost, even when it requires lots of misinformation to do so.

I have said twice so far--third time lucky--that the Republican Party will all but disappear in 2014. (Any political party that would consider running either Sarah Palin or Michele Bachmann has serious issues.) AFAICS, it won't be soon enough for your country to have the Republicans collapse, but unless folks get off their collective fundaments now and create a viable 'other' party to challenge the Democrats in 2016, y'all go be stuck with SSDD. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 09:42 AM

Hey you. With the guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: ollaimh
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:35 AM

personally i won't be happy untill i have my own strategic nuclear weapon. i'll strap to to the roof of my car, then those smokies will think twice about giving me a ticket!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:37 AM

Suggesting that an attempt to impose or enhance a few regulations regarding gun ownership, all of which have been under discussion for ages and none of which should come as a surprise to anyone, would cause a "civil war" is extremely demeaning to gun owners. It suggests that they are unreasonable people who would rather take to the streets, guns in hand, than to engage in the process of debate. It suggests they're too stupid to know the difference between rhetoric and reality, a distinction which I'm not certain OP understands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:04 PM

""It suggests that they are unreasonable people who would rather take to the streets, guns in hand, than to engage in the process of debate. It suggests they're too stupid to know the difference between rhetoric and reality, a distinction which I'm not certain OP understands.""

The ones that ShitWrangler gets his disinformation from are precisely that stupid Bee Dub.

How else explain the triple distilled crap which forms the bulk of his verbal excreta?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:40 PM

Actually, I envy Songwronger for one thing; there is little or no chance that he will ever suffer brain damag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Elmore
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:49 PM

If I ever need a brain transplant, I want Songwronger's because it's never been used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:29 PM

Elmore, I wouldn't do it. It has been in a toxic environment for too long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 03:30 PM

I was trying to think of one word to encompass bigoted, racist, half assed, brokedick, dumbfuckin' asshole.....and now I GOT IT!!!!

SONGWRONGER!!!!




Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 03:42 PM

Once again, Spaw cuts straight to the heart of the issue!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:52 PM

I haven't posted in donkey's years but this gem from the first post can't go unmentioned in my book-

Of course, that would be a violation of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but then he never really swore to uphold that constitution. He and judge Roberts did the worst piece of theater in history when they "accidentally flubbed" Obama's swearing in, so technically he never took the oath. He's not required to abide by the constitution.

Which is false because after the public inaugauration-Roberts and President Barack Obama did it over again (there are pictures to prove it, unless you think Roberts is a Martian in the picture). Did you accidentally flub that fact yourself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:06 PM

yeah yeah yeah. The truth hurts.

So, were you at the alleged second swearing in, irishenglish? Please refer me to the video clip of that second, successful attempt.

If you didn't say the words, you didn't take the oath. Obama never said the words. Then later, Judge Roberts "surprised" everyone by breaking with his "conservative views" and casting the deciding vote for the unconstitutional Obamacare crapola.

You folks have been making excuses for Obama for far too long now. He's working against your interests. Doesn't matter if he's Dem/Rep, black/white, whatever. He's bad for you, personally, and for the nation.

Enjoy his 2% tax hike, by the way. Should be on this week's paycheck. More on the way, too. King Obama says we need to fight austerity. I think that's what one of his vacation press releases said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM

Wrong-he did say the official words, or perhaps the complexity of my argument made you miss the fact. Oh but wait, it really wasn't that complex. Your thoughts are clear....spew your hate somewhere else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:21 PM

Retake video


Twid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:50 PM

That's no video, that's audio. Easily faked. There are news stories about audio faking capabilities being demonstrated on Colin Powell, and...

You wouldn't believe me, so here it is:

When Seeing and Hearing Isn't Believing

Monday, Feb. 1, 1999

"Gentlemen! We have called you together to inform you that we are going to overthrow the United States government." So begins a statement being delivered by Gen. Carl W. Steiner, former Commander-in-chief, U.S. Special Operations Command.

At least the voice sounds amazingly like him.

But it is not Steiner. It is the result of voice "morphing" technology developed at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.

By taking just a 10-minute digital recording of Steiner's voice, scientist George Papcun is able, in near real time, to clone speech patterns and develop an accurate facsimile. Steiner was so impressed, he asked for a copy of the tape.

Steiner was hardly the first or last victim to be spoofed by Papcun's team members. To refine their method, they took various high quality recordings of generals and experimented with creating fake statements. One of the most memorable is Colin Powell stating "I am being treated well by my captors."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/dotmil/arkin020199.htm

Obama didn't take any oath of office. It'll be interesting to see how they handle the situation this time around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:56 PM

Silly!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 08:53 PM

Sure, the second oath of office is faked. After all, it would be SO much easier to hire some audio engineer to spend hours splicing sound-bites together to create a fake tape than it would be for Roberts and Obama to spend a few seconds saying the words again.

And then, of course, they had to have the audio engineer murdered so he'd never tell the truth. Took him out in the desert in Nevada and let Obama practice his drone strike skills on the poor guy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 09:18 PM

Ducking the legal liability of that oath would be worth a few hours work, don't you think? Look at how many trillions Obama has been able to channel to his banking buddies by ignoring the constitution.

Obama's supposed to have been a law perfessor, and Roberts is the head of the Supreme Court. A few simple words, spoken by Roberts and then repeated by Obama, and they couldn't achieve that?

The swearing in was "flubbed" for a reason, and then we were presented with a bogus audio tape. Why wasn't the second swearing in filmed? Everything else that King Obama did on that day was. Why go behind closed door to do the "real" swearing in? It never occurred. Obama violates the constitution openly now because he never took an oath to serve it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 09:23 PM

Calling a sheep a dog will not make the sheep bark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 09:39 PM

Yes, of course Obama started the Civil War... It was just a few year after he ordered up the Mexican War and many years before he kidnapped the Limbergh baby...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 09:52 PM

So offer me real, undoctored proof that Obama took his oath of office for the presidency.

Why present an audio of the "second swearing in" alongside a photo of him with his hand raised?

He never took the oath of office. Someone prove otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 10:02 PM

"real undoctored proof"--i.e. something you will accept as proof.   Why does that appear to be the ultimate black hole of time?

Sorry, any reasonable person has a few better things to do: like make music, read---or anything else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 10:58 PM

Any reasonable person would be worried about that fact that Obama has said he can kill anyone, anytime, and not have to answer for it. And he's already killing Americans in accordance with this policy. That's what a reasonable person would be concerned about.

At any rate, you know there's no proof that Obama took that oath.

Thus endeth the Fable of the Two Oaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 12:48 AM

Thou art a silly man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 01:58 AM

So, Songwronger wants "undoctored" proof that Obama took the oath for his first term of office. Proof was offered, but Songwronger didn't accept it. Maybe this video will suffice as the desired proof. Then again, probably not.

Has anybody EVER been able to furnish "proof" that a conspiracy theorist would consider acceptable?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:05 AM

a 2% tax hike? Wow, now let's take a look at the record.
Taxes under other presidents:
FDR 74%
LBJ 77%
Clinton 39%
Bush jr. 33%
Nixon 70%


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 10:02 AM

""Any reasonable person would be worried about that fact that Obama has said he can kill anyone, anytime, and not have to answer for it.""

Any reasonable person would be more gainfully employed watching grass grow.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""From: kendall - PM
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:05 AM

a 2% tax hike? Wow, now let's take a look at the record.
Taxes under other presidents:
FDR 74%
LBJ 77%
Clinton 39%
Bush jr. 33%
Nixon 70%
""

Ah, but it's 2% taken off SW by a black President, and he can't live with that.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 10:31 AM

Isn't this the same 2% that he gave as a strictly time-limited tax break two years ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:44 PM

Does the USA still need a "well regulated militia"? If it doesn't what the hell is the point of the murderous free for all that currently exists in it's name? Every year America manages to kill, by gunfire, more than 9/11 managed, not just by a little but many times over and it just gets accepted as a price worth paying, why?

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:56 PM

"Any reasonable person would be worried about that fact that Obama has said he can kill anyone, anytime, and not have to answer for it. And he's already killing Americans in accordance with this policy. That's what a reasonable person would be concerned about."

I doubt this is at all true given that the quote above made the internut. If it was actually the case, SOMEbody needs a reprimand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:53 AM

We do have a well regulated militia. It's called the National Guard.

I'm still trying to imagine an automatic flint lock.I'll bet none of the founding fathers could.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 09:04 AM

We have at least a couple of threads going here with people responding to Songtwisters sewage as if to debate against a genuine opinion; I submit that we have no reason whatever to assume that he actually believes the stuff that he defecates here so he can watch people complain about the stench.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 09:18 AM

Actually, when the Founding Fathers penned the Constitution, men with guns were required to do militia training and have their weapons inspected...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 11:29 AM

"I submit..."    Fine. It's interesting that some people want a thread to die--a worthy goal-- but their solution is to contribute to it.

Duh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:51 AM

I submit that we have no reason whatever to assume that he actually believes the stuff that he defecates here so he can watch people complain about the stench.

If his IQ were slightly larger than his collar size that might be true, but it isn't.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:23 PM

I knew I started a thread about Obama and a new civil war. Here it is.

I find the following article disturbing:

Disney will give "Lincoln" DVD to every middle, high school in U.S.

The Denver Post

An arm of Disney will provide a free copy of Steven Spielberg's Academy Award-nominated "Lincoln" to every middle and high school in the country when the film comes out on DVD, the entertainment giant announced Tuesday.

Disney Educational Productions said the gift to the nation's schools is in conjunction with the launching of a "social action campaign" they are calling "Stand Tall: Live Like Lincoln."

Along with the movie itself, Disney Educational will provide a teaching guide.

In a statement, Spielberg said he received letters from teachers asking if they could use the film in classrooms. The movie, starring Daniel Day-Lewis, chronicles Lincoln's difficult final months in office and the final days of the Civil War.

The announcement came on the 16th president's birthday — all but forgotten since the merge with the anniversary of George Washington's birth into Presidents Day.

The massive donation is being funded by Participant Media, DreamWorks Pictures and Fox/Newscorp. A spokesman for Disney said he was unsure how much it would cost. The U.S. Department of Education estimates there are 26,407 public and 10,693 private high schools in the country. The number of middle schools is less clear.


http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22575072/disney-will-give-lincoln-dvd-every-middle-high

I haven't seen the movie, but I know that Disney has a long history or propagandizing. And here they're working in conjunction with Fox News to distribute a Hollywood film that will come with a "teaching guide." And what are Spielberg's politics? If he leftist, a rightie or what?

This stinks, and I put the story on the "civil war" thread because we're constantly bombarded with images of Obama as Lincoln. Lincoln the war president. Lincoln the dictator. Lincoln the emancipator.   We're being pushed in the direction of civil war, and now it looks like school kids are going to be propagandized by "Dreamworks" and Fox News. Disturbing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:50 PM

What does this reopen have to do with Obama?

Mudelfs, since 16 January came to pass with no civil war, the title is misleading. Maybe just call it Songwronger civil war thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:58 PM

Pathological.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:14 AM

Obama has been symbolically linked to Lincoln by the media. If Obama is in office when a civil war starts, then we will be reminded that he is a "Lincoln figure," and Lincoln won the civil war.

And now this film is being distributed on Obama's watch. A piece of fiction will be distributed by a private entity to public schools. Obama, as president, should stop it, but he won't because the distribution will enhance his Lincoln linkage. And then there's the public/private partnership angle, which all good fascists approve of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:32 AM

I repeat. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 01:08 AM

WHat an unmitigated oure-dee nutball,


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:28 AM

"If it was legal for the US to leave the British Empire when they wished to, why was it illegal for the South to leave the US when THEY wished to? The only difference that I can see is that the South lost the Civil War, but the US won the Revolution (or maybe the BE had too many other wars going to spend the money and time to win it). But if that's the only difference, then law is simply a matter of superior force. In which case, each of us needs as many guns and as much ammunition as he or she can assemble."

There was no United States of America that was ever a part of the British Empire. It was 13 colonies that rebelled and formed the union of states/commonwealths that was then called the USA. And gradually added new territories that later gained statehood.

Texas was part of Mexico that rebelled and with help from fellow anglos in the US became an independent state that later sought admittance into the USA.

Considering that Scotland and Ireland have had more than a few rebellions against "foreign rule", I'm thinking that the BE was not that wonderful for those other than the landed gentry.

Since the USA is an assemblage of states with rights and responsibilities, not to mention legally binding agreements that incorporated them into the union, there is no foreign rule to rebel against. Just a bunch of sore losers who don't seem to be able to play nicely with others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:40 AM

I get a kick out of those knuckle draggers and mouth breathers who think they can stand a chance against the military if they can just have an assault rifle with a couple of banana clips.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:30 AM

It's possible to defeat even a light tank with materials which might be available, but you can lose a lot of people doing it. Besides, the coordination, training, and discipline necessary for such is definitely missing among those of BOTH extremes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Start a Civil War Tomorrow?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:53 AM

Or a helicopter if you have enough very highly motivated people.


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