BS: Muslim men and white girls - again

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:41 AM

""And NO Don, with the exception of this thread you are somewhere off to the right of the conservative party on many issues.""

That Richard is a plain straightforward lie.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:47 AM

his dismissive reaction to the fact that Hindu and Sikh girls are also targetted.

Don, far from dismissing it, it was me who first pointed that fact out, both on this thread and on the 2010 thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 06:00 AM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 03:00 AM

SRS, Akeneaton's statement that you quote above is factually correct, except that the victims are almost excusively white but not totally.
There have been Sikh and Hindu victims.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:43 AM

The victims are not all sluts.
They were not all picked up on the streets late at night.
Those ones tended to be girls within the care system.
Girls from respectable families have given their stories of being enticed away from shopping malls in daylight.
Not all white either.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 06:11 AM

"it ain't women who are having sex with little girls"


An awful lot of opinions being put foreward as fact on this thread.

Leaving aside Myra Hindley and Rosemary West for the moment, you might like to consider this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8022861.stm


As for your thoughts on the death sentence, in my opinion that would put society on the same level as the offenders. Sorry, but you either believe in the sanctity of life or you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM

"I was wrong about child trafficking from abroad."
Which blows your claim of "a predominantly Muslim crime" clean out of the water.
The sheer number of European gangs pimping underage women relegates Muslims to the bottom of the list once you take into consideration the indigenous sex trade, which reaches deep into the British establishment – tip of the iceberg?:.   
http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/articles/Partial_List_of_Convicted_British_Paedo_Politicians.html

"I agree, and deny that anyone here has done that."
What!!!!!!!
This has been your case throughout these squalid threads - that grooming and procuring underage girls for sex has been predominately, if not exclusively a Muslim act - built into their culture even.
Quote:
"So, why have all such cases involved BPs?"
You have even accused the police of ignoring this behaviour because the perpetrators were Muslims - making the police - what exactly - at least accomplices to underage prostitution?

A fair summing up of your attitude to date:

"THIS IS HOW RACISM TAKES ROOT
THE DIFFERENT WAYS THE MEDIA COVERED TWO CASES OF MEN GROOMING CHILDREN FOR SEX SHOW HOW SHOCKINGLY EASY IT IS TO DEMONISE A WHOLE COMMUNITY
Joseph Harker
The Guardian, Sunday 22 July 2012 20.30 BST
Five of the eight men convicted of child sex abuse in Derby: Mark Adaoui, John Shaw, Stefan Godfrey, Anthony Lambert and Ijaz Ahmed. Photograph: Caters News Agency
By now surely everyone knows the case of the eight men convicted of picking vulnerable underage girls off the streets, then plying them with drink and drugs before having sex with them. A shocking story. But maybe you haven't heard. Because these sex assaults did not take place in Rochdale, where a similar story led the news for days in May, but in Derby earlier this month. Fifteen girls aged 13 to 15, many of them in care, were preyed on by the men. And though they were not working as a gang, their methods were similar – often targeting children in care and luring them with, among other things, cuddly toys. But this time, of the eight predators, seven were white, not Asian. And the story made barely a ripple in the national media.
Of the daily papers, only the Guardian and the Times reported it. There was no commentary anywhere on how these crimes shine a light on British culture, or how middle-aged white men have to confront the deep flaws in their religious and ethnic identity. Yet that's exactly what played out following the conviction in May of the "Asian sex gang" in Rochdale, which made the front page of every national newspaper. Though analysis of the case focused on how big a factor was race, religion and culture, the unreported story is of how politicians and the media have created a new racial scapegoat. In fact, if anyone wants to study how racism begins, and creeps into the consciousness of an entire nation, they need look no further
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/22/how-racism-takes-root

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-launch-criminal-investigation-into-mps-child-sex-ring-8456434.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:13 AM

Which blows your claim of "a predominantly Muslim crime" clean out of the water.
Again, it is a lie that I have EVER related the crime to religion.

The crime I have been talking about, where gangs target vulnerable local children, groom them, rape them, pimp and traffic them, as in the string of court cases over the last 3 years, have mainly involved BPs.

You have even accused the police of ignoring this behaviour because the perpetrators were Muslims

It is an undisputed fact that police DID ignore this crime.
Why they did is yet to be established.
Some individual officers have stated that it was because of ethnicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:18 AM

"Keith - Jim has the whinging sorry outlook of your typical expat. Live with it."
I resent that - I was whining about goose-steppers like Keith long before I left the UK to live in Ireland.
Where I live has nothing whatever to do with my opinion, which was part of my upbringing. This is especially true as I was born and spent 55 years of my life in the UK.
My present place of residence is a regular ploy by Keith when he has been cornered - 'rat-at-the-throat', so to speak.
It proves nothing other than to underline his (and other's - you seem to have caught a dose of his disease) xenophobic little-Englander outlook on life - "you only have a right to be listened to if you can prove current residence" - grow up - the pair of you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:22 AM

"Again, it is a lie that I have EVER related the crime to religion."
You have persistently claimed this to be a predominately "Muslim" crime - has Islam ceased to be a religion.
Your now admitted claim that "all male Pakistanis have been culturally implanted" underlines that.
Get help Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:39 AM

Jim.
You have persistently claimed this to be a predominately "Muslim" crime
That is the third time today you have made that accusation.
It is still a lie.
I have NEVER related the crime to Islam.
Why must you always attack instead of discuss, and why the need to LIE?

We had a thread about that Harker story you pasted.
The crimes he said other papers had not reported, actually had been reported.
Also the crimes involved lone paedos, not trafficking gangs.
It was discredited.
He had no case.
read the thread

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:52 AM

Throughout these threads you have emphasised that these criminals were Muslims – or maybe you believe it's Pakistanis who are to blame.

"Don I do now " believe that all male PAKISTANI MUSLIMS have a culturally implanted tendency"

If you weren't making your claim that it was their religion was to blame why even bother to mention that the criminals were Muslims, what on earth has their religion got to do with it and who are you now claiming to be the leading perpetrators?

You are now attempting to create a diversion – your argument that these people are all Muslims or Pakistanis, or whatever racial or cultural group you are claiming committed these crimes, you have no case
The facts are that almost certainly the greater number of people committing these crimes are indigenous to Britain, possibly followed by Eastern European sex traffickers – but there are no researched figures and you have never had a basis for your claim.
You have persistently ignored evidence put before you and have dodged answering questions.
You have deliberately manipulated the facts, including your own "evidence" throughout many of the threads you have contributed to – it seems to be your stock-in-trade.
Respond to the articles you have been given or go away.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:22 AM

I used that phrase because it was a direct reply to Don and that was the phrase he used.
All thjese posts were made BEFORE that post, so I had already made my position clear.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know.
There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:07 AM

I agree that there is an issue about parenting and the security of children in care.
I hope that is not being offered as an excuse for the sexual abuse of children.
Anne Cryer gave a very plausible explanation of why these abusers are mostly from that community.
It is nothing to do with Islam.

: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM

I was referring to the British Pakistanis.
Their culture is quite distinct from Turkish Moslems, Tunisian Moslems, etc.

: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:43 AM

Don, on 24th January I said about this issue "It is nothing to do with Islam. "
I do not "see the problem as a Muslim one,"
I have always said specifically that it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:51 AM

""Some individual officers have stated that it was because of ethnicity.""

Another of your unattributed and unsupported statements, drawn out of thin air?

Or can you quote those individuals, with relevant evidence?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:18 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:47 AM

his dismissive reaction to the fact that Hindu and Sikh girls are also targetted.

Don, far from dismissing it, it was me who first pointed that fact out, both on this thread and on the 2010 thread!""

So you were the one who raised the point in the first place on this thread???

LIAR!

""Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS - PM
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 04:22 PM

DtG - "We are also still not addressing why the Moslem gangs target young white girls while the other gangs - Be they East European, British, Yardies or Triads seem quite happy to target any females."

From various anecdotal sources I have seen in reading around this topic, it would seem that Sikh and Hindu girls were the first victims to be targeted by Pakistani gangs. I have also read that a source of serious racial tensions and resultant violence between Sikhs, Hindus and Pakistanis in this country, particularly during the 90's, were reputed campaigns by groups of young Pakistani Muslim men forcibly converting young Sikh and Hindu girls to Islam by seducing, beating and/or raping them, which - as these men know - makes their victims unmarriageable and often outcast according to the standards of their own communities - thus leaving them with no-where else to turn, but back to their abusers.""

Your response, 42 minutes later, ignoring the statement completely:

""Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:04 PM

I agree Al.
The depravity in these cases is sickening.
There have been so many through the courts now.
Almost all the offenders are linked by ethnicity.
Some of us think it significant.
Some of us think it is a coincidence.
We are not going to agree, so let's drop it.""

If anyone ever posts something really damaging to your argument, your first instinct is to kill the thread.

I'd call that dismissive (and I'm being over generous here), wouldn't you?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:18 AM

I quoted them all in the 2011 thread Don.
Now, are you going to apologise for "his dismissive reaction to the fact that Hindu and Sikh girls are also targeted." ?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:22 AM

So you were the one who raised the point in the first place on this thread???

I actually repeated the post for you today Don.
It is true.
Another apology required!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:23 AM

WHO ARE YOU IDENTIFYING AS THE CRIMINALS HERE IF IT IS NOT MUSLIMS? AND PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE EVIDENCE YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN LEAVES YOUR "Muslim/Pakistani/Asian/foreigner/ex pat/
..... whoever accusation dead in the water

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:26 AM

And here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price,
Ya have to pay to get out of
Going through all this shit twice.

A slightly paraphrased partial stanza from Bob Dylan's "Stuck Inside of Mobile (with the Memphis Blues Again)."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:26 AM

Your earlier post which mentioned "there have been Sikh and Hindu victims" is so dismissive as to beggar belief in its obvious implication that this was almost unworthy of mention.

C.S. was the first to give it something like its true import as the origin of later abuse of white girls, whereas you attempted to imply that a few sikh and Hindu girls had more or less accidentally been abused.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:46 AM

The majority of those involved in this particular crime have been British Pakistani men.
Only a tiny number, but that is the fact.
How does it help to deny it?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:32 PM

I was the first on this thread to STATE that there were Hindu and Sikh victims, as I also was in the 2011 thread.
You owe an apology.
You called me "LIAR" in capitals.

Very few of the victims of this crime have seen their abusers charged.
None of the Hindu or Sikh victims have.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:53 PM

"Only a tiny number, but that is the fact."
No it isn't and the only way you can claim this is by ignoring the facts you have ben givem
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:04 PM

You will never admit it Jim, so let's give it up.
It does make you look a bit silly though.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:43 PM

Sure it does!!!!!
Byee

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:43 PM

Sure it does!!!!!
Byee

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:37 PM

From Al: >>>>"Well Lizzie's plan would solve the unemployment problem. Whole squads of executioners working flat out to kill all yhose people.

They say Henry VIII had about seventy two thousand people executed in his reign. That would be a drop in the ocean if you killed all paedophiles, anyone who had hired a prostitue, presumably all the prostitutes, all the pimps, all the phone sex workers, all the people who phoned them..... I mean its all sex traffic.

Auswitzch would be a new standard in moderation.

Just cos you're different to these people doesn't give you the right to kill them, Lizzie."<<<<<


I said this:

>>>"Automatic death penalty for ALL paedophiles and ALL who are involved in the 'sex-trafficking' business in any way...."

And I meant it. ANYONE who is a part of sex slavery, *forcing* children, young people to have sex against their will, in order that their 'masters' can make money from their utter misery does not deserve The Right To Life in any way.

I am sick to death of excuses being made for Sociopathic Bastards who care not one single iota about what they do.

ANYONE involved in sex-trafficking, sexual slavery is shit, basically....and that includes men who use these poor slaves for a quick sexual thrill, who ogle pornograhic photos of children or who use women for sex who are, quite literally, being violated by them because this is NOT the life they wanted or ever expected....

It's way past time we started to face up to the fact that there are some VERY sick people amongst our Species and the sooner we have the guts to admit this and then do something about it, the better....because, until we do, these vile people will continue their hideous trade of innocent souls who DO have a Right To Life and a bloody DECENT life at that!


AND...we need to start asking WHY some men want to have sex with children, sometimes BABIES, in the first place...

It is NOT normal
It is NOT natural
It IS **************NOT************* ACCEPTABLE!

And as long as people say "Oh well, it's ALWAYS been this way!" then IT WILL CONTINUE!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:21 PM

Musket, you get more moronic by the day. I heaped no praise on Austin Mitchell. I merely pointed out that he was left of most Labour MPs. His part in breaking the conveyancing monopoly was also moronic. I have NEVER yet picked up a file where a "licensed conveyancer" was involved without finding MANY cockups by that half-arsed semi-qualified idiot. And I'm not even a conveyancing expert.   The breaking of the monopoly was stupid, stupid, stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:52 PM

It's difficult to disagree with you on this, Liz.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:44 PM

Well I disagree, Lizzie. I don't believe in hurting or killing anyone.

The child sex thing is frequently associated with impoverished and dreadful upbringings - which have always been on offer in every culture. Generally the poorer, the higher the incidence of this sort of depravity.

If you taught in a poor area - you would know this first hand. Believe you me, its gets weird beyong your worst imagining.

In fact the levels of child abuse are double that of the general population amongst native Americans - that you are always banging on about as the fount of all wisdom. So you'd end up hanging your own mates.

And you can bluster til your bum turns green - you're wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 03:01 AM

Don T.
Your earlier post which mentioned "there have been Sikh and Hindu victims" is so dismissive as to beggar belief in its obvious implication that this was almost unworthy of mention.

C.S. was the first to give it something like its true import as the origin of later abuse of white girls

It was not dismissive, it was me reporting a fact, in correction of something Akeneaton had posted.
In the 2011 thread I posted quotes from Hindu and Sikh authorities condemning the abuse of their girls by BP men, and thereafter included them in my lists of evidence.

It did not precede the abuse of white girls, it was concurrent.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 03:22 AM

My posts
5 march 2011
UK's Hindu and Sikh organizations have also come in open and accused some Pakistani men of specifically targeting Hindu and Sikh girls. "This has been a serious concern for the last decade," said Hardeep Singh of Network of Sikh Organizations (NSO) while talking to TOI on Monday.

Sikhs and Hindus are annoyed that Straw had shown concern for White girls and not the Hindu and the Sikh teenage girls who have been coaxed by some Pakistani men for sex and religious conversion.

"Straw does other communities a disservice by suggesting that only white girls were targets of this predatory behaviour. We raised the issue of our girls with the previous government and the police on several occasions over the last decade. This phenomenon has been there because a minority of Islamic extremists view all 'non believers' as legitimate targets," said director NSO Inderjit Singh.

same day
Hardeep said that in 2007, The Hindu Forum of Britain claimed that hundreds of Hindu and Sikh girls had been first romantically coaxed and later intimidated and converted by Muslim men.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 03:40 AM

I can't believe that anybody could be so evil as to continue attempting to make the abuse of young women a race issue after overwhelming evidence to the contrary and after the warnings by those involved in investigating these cases that it would be wrong and irresponsible to claim racial motives.
There is nothing whatever to distinguish the behaviour of this handful of criminals from that of any other sex peddlers throughout the world and from time immemorial.
This from the US 'Human and Smuggling Trafficking Center in the US
The descriptions of the methodology of acquiring women for sex is not just similar, but identical to that described in the British press.
Sick, sick, sick!!!
Jim Carroll

"HUMAN SMUGGLING AND TRAFFICKING CENTER
.......includes a civil remedy allowing trafficking victims to sue their traffickers in federal district courts Thirty states have passed legislation criminalizing human trafficking and directing law enforcement agencies to adopt training programs to enhance identification and interdiction efforts.9 If victims are identified in one of these states, arrest and prosecution of traffickers can occur at the state level. In addition, most states and local authorities have laws relating to prostitution that can be used to prosecute pimps at the state and local level.
VICTIMS - SEX TRAFFICKING
Research indicates that most victims of sexual trafficking into and within the U.S. are women and children, particularly girls under the age of 18. Currently, there are no known cases of adult men being trafficked for commercial sex acts in the U.S.; however, adult males have been victimized in labor trafficking cases. 10 A victim has to be subjected only to a form of force,
fraud. or coercion once to meet the definition of "trafficking victim" so long as that misconduct was aimed at obtaining their labor. services. or a commercial sex act. The force. fraud. Or coercion does not need to be sustained. Being a relative of the victim does not excuse trafficking activities.
While human trafficking is about exploitation and does not require the movement or transportation of the person, USC trafficking victims can often be identified in situations where the victims are moved from one location to another irrespective of distance. The movement of a victim is a common control technique used to isolate the victim; the distance may range from a
couple of miles from the victim's home to several states.
THE GROOMING PROCESS
The perpetrators of trafficking employ a "grooming process" to draw their USC victims away from their homes or to gain the trust and dependency of young victims who may have run away from home. The first step is often the development of a relationship with an older man, who the victim comes to regard as her "boyfriend". The perpetrator assesses the victim's needs (vulnerabilities) and offers flattery, material items such as money, jewelry or clothes, and/or displays other "acts of love". The adolescent female may be enticed to begin a sexual relationship with her "boyfriend". The adolescent will be encouraged to stay away from home for increasingly longer periods of time, eventually leading to her not returning home at all.
Within a short period of time, the victim is often encouraged to take a short trip with the "boyfriend" for what seems like a reasonable cause. It is often at this point that the perpetrator will try to convince the victim to prostitute herself The "boyfriend" may start the process of exploitation by introducing the victim to other groups of men and asking the victim to provide sexual favors to the men because they are his "friends". If the victim doesn't agree to do so, she will then be subjected to violence, abuse, or other coercive measures, with the objective of giving the "boyfriend" dominance and control over the victim.
By this stage, the victim may be in no position to refuse the "boyfriend's" commands and is frightened and compliant. 12 She may find herself in an unknown part of the city, or perhaps a different city all together. The victim realizes that she, her family, nor anyone else knows where she is. The victim may know the city or area they are in, but may be unable to provide family or police with their specific location if able to contact them. This element of control, exercised by the "boyfriend" and other men, reinforces the victim's vulnerability and she becomes psychologically dependent on them.
A number of other control methods will be utilized by the trafficker to control the victim.
"House Rules", which are rules for interacting with the trafticker, authorities, 'johns" and other customers, along with nightly quotas, etc., will be established and the trafficker will enforce rule violations with violence. Some victims have described being subjected to extreme physical and sexual violence, being required to commit other criminal acts, and to recruit other potential
victims. If the victim is underage, the trafficker will often provide the victim with a false name and date of birth to use if encountered by authorities.
PIMPS AND SEX TRAFFICKERS
The terms "pimp" and "trafficker" are not necessarily synonymous. Depending on the jurisdiction, a pimp may not be violating any law. A pimp can be defined as one who finds and manages clients for a prostitute and manages the women in prostitution in order to profit from their earnings. A pimp may not necessarily force a woman to stay with him in order to prostitute her. So, even if prostitution is illegal, a pimp who doesn't use force, fraud, or coercion to compel adult women to prostitute themselves would not be considered a trafficker. On the other hand, any pimp who knowingly manages a minor would be considered a trafficker. Additionally, a trafticker could be someone who knowingly profits from coerced prostitution even if he or she is not directly involved in the management of the prostitutes. For instance, a human smuggler in Guatemala would be considered a trafficker if he was knowingly bringing people to the U.S. to be trafficked, even though he would not be considered a pimp.
INDICATORS OF RISK
At the start of the grooming process, young people often exhibit behavior that can alert family, friends, and professionals that they may be at risk of being sexually exploited.
The victim may also consider themselves to be in a romantic relationship and want to please their partner and do what he says so that he won't end the relationship."
"http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/113612.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 03:53 AM

I can't believe that anybody could be so evil as to continue attempting to make the abuse of young women a race issue

No-one is Jim.
I though we had finished.
Your "byees" are so funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 04:07 AM

@ Lizzie

I definitely think sentencing for serious sexual assault of children is ridiculously low. An abuser can often be out to abuse again after a couple of years (the courts place more importance on money than on children's safety). If there's no internally established sense of wrong for someone who is sexually *attracted* to children (remember that many peadophiles do not molest children, but instead use non-abusive paedophilic erotic materials like fiction and cartoons - these non-abusive peadophiles who restrain themselves, just don't make headlines) then prison is no deterrent. People who get caught abusing and are imprisoned and then released, just simply go back to do it again. I'm not in favour of death sentences (people can be wrongfully killed for one thing) but I would be in favour of actual life for serious child sex offenders, and especially repeat offenders.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 04:24 AM

To clarify, I don't consider consenting sexual contact between *teenage peers* to represent sexual assault and it should be de-criminalised.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 04:30 AM

Agree, CS. They need containing for life, to protect children. Somewhere such as Broadmoor. Paedophiles using erotic material is still abhorrent to me. It can be pics or photos, which of course involve abuse in front of a camera. Even the idea of cartoons or literature for paedophiles makes me feel sick. I can identify with Lizzie's anger and suggestion of the death penalty. However, (and I often find this hard to adhere to) I don't personally think one can take a life for an offence, no matter how grievous or evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: selby
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 04:31 AM

On the subject of prison sentences or not and I am not into the rights or wrong of the case merely the result that has happened in the context of this dare I say discussion.
The lady convicted in Bali of drug smuggling who has been given the death penalty her mind and I suspect a few others has been really focused. The ultimate deterrent to all reasonable human beings is unfortunately death. Will it answer the problems discussed in this thread I very much doubt it, we are dealing with bullies and thugs who prey on the weak and the term reasonable human being does not apply to them. Is there an answer I don't think so thugs and bullies have always prayed on the weak since the beginning of time, it is part of a humans make up, if you look objectively at people you can see these traits surface in various forms, I once worked for a boss in a big organisation who was a complete B*****D, he got to me so much that I turned on him, pointed out whilst i had him by the throat that his behaviour was unacceptable to me, we became good friends after that as he realised he had overstepped the mark with me, but he still bullied other people as he saw it as part of his job as being a boss, he was a lovely man when you got to know him, but the bully thug part of his make up in a certain condition surfaced
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 04:47 AM

Surely the point is not whether these gangs target white girls, Sikhs or Hindus, abuse and prostitution of young teenagers is wrong regardless of ethnicity.

The point seems to be that they do not target girls from their own ethnic background, which is in almost all cases British Pakistani
That would seem to point to a cultural aspect? Unless you think that white children....the vast majority of victims, are morally inferior?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 04:59 AM

"Even the idea of cartoons or literature for paedophiles makes me feel sick."

It's still true to say that these types of erotic materials (unlike videos and photographs of real children) do not exploit and cause no harm to children. I also think that they represent a useful avenue for paedophiles to - for want of a better term - find some kind of outlet for their sexuality. As a pragmatist, I'd rather these kinds of materials were readily available, fully legal (not all harmless paedophilic materials are legal) and non-stigmatised. What happen's in other people's heads is their business, I'd just rather it stay there.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 05:01 AM

If the Death Penalty is re-introduced - for any offence - we will have regressed as a nation. Murder is murder, no matter who carries out the act of killing, and murder by the State is just as depraved as any other killing of a human being.

Also, children who are abused are themselves already at risk of being murdered by their abuser(s), and the likelihood of them being killed in order for the abusers' identity to be protected would increase....IMHO, dramatically.

Overall, it's a crap idea. Banging the bastards up for the rest of their shitty lives is the best way to protect our children.

IMHO, YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 05:14 AM

"No-one is Jim."
It having been established beyond doubt that the race/religion of the criminals in these cases is of no significance whatever, you now seem to have moved on to that of their victims - how bizarre can you get?
The desire to continue to make a race issue of these cases is to use the plight of the victims as a platform for racism.
The victims were chosen because they were there, not because they fell into any particular racial or cultural category.
A rare occasion when I find myself (almost) in agreement with Akeneton.
"abuse and prostitution of young teenagers is wrong regardless of ethnicity."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 05:35 AM

Good.
That is something we ALL agree on Jim.
I was only responding to Don who accused me of being dismissive about victims who were not white.

I do challenge your statement "It having been established beyond doubt that the race/religion of the criminals in these cases is of no significance whatever"

It has not.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 05:59 AM

""I can't believe that anybody could be so evil as to continue attempting to make the abuse of young women a race issue

No-one is Jim.
I though we had finished.
Your "byees" are so funny.""

So says the King of the back trackers. Whenever his stance is blown out of the water he comes back with "Nobody is (saying), (doing), (thinking) that".

He then goes on to say "I knew that all along, and I was the first to say it".

It won't wash! You've made more swerves and U turns than a sidewinder on a hot day.

Truly Keith you make a corkscrew look like the shortest distance between two points.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 06:06 AM

None of that is true Don.
I admitted to being wrong about E European trafficking of kids, but I have not backtracked on anything else.

It is you not remembering what I actually said.
It is you assuming I say things that I do not because you have got me wrong.

No swerves.
No U turns.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 07:41 AM

Death sentance, life imprisonment, chemical castration, whatever. They are all after the event things and will not prevent crimes from happening. No-one commits a crime in the belief that they will be caught so deterants are, by and large, irrelevent. Knowledge is the key. If we can determine who is likely to commit the crime and prevent it from happening, hopefully by education, then we will be on a real winner.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 07:53 AM

"Death sentance, life imprisonment, chemical castration, whatever. They are all after the event things and will not prevent crimes from happening."

I agree. However, it will prevent THAT individual from committing that crime again. In Canada we have the stories of Donald Marshall, David Milgaard and Willie Nepoose that speak loudly against the death penalty. Their cases involved mismanagement of evidence, shoddy work from the investigating police and lies from various witnesses. However, when the proof is irrefutable, I see no need to spend fifty thousand dollars a year keeping murderers or child molesters alive. Better to spend that money on the victims or their families.

I used to believe strongly that the death penalty shouldn't be used. I don't feel that way anymore. But it's a moot point because Canada abolished the death penalty in 1963--and by law in 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 08:29 AM

Unfortunately, 999, our laws in the UK do not require 'irrefutable proof' for an accused person to be found guilty, they require that the proof be 'beyond reasonable doubt', and that has resulted in a number of cases where people have been found guilty, only for a miscarriage of justice to have been proved later. Many of the wrongly-convicted have been released and have returned to normal life.......sadly that isn't an option for the surprisingly large number who were wrongly executed.

Lock 'em up, that's what a civilised society does. Throwing the key away is an option for the most serious crimes..

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 08:50 AM

Indeed, Backwoodsman. That is precisely why I mentioned the three men I did. Each was convicted of a capital crime and had we had a death penalty each would have been killed. Later evidence (and hard work from people who thought them not guilty of the crimes) resulted in their release because none of them had committed the crimes of which they'd been accused then convicted. I'm reminded of Paxton's song, "What Did You Learn in School Today?"


What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
I learned that policemen are my friends,
I learned that justice never ends,
I learned that murderers die for their crimes
Even if we make a mistake sometimes,
That's what I learned in school today,
That's what I learned in school.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 08:55 AM

Damn me, I always thought that that was Pete Seeger.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 09:05 AM

>>>>In fact the levels of child abuse are double that of the general population amongst native Americans - that you are always banging on about as the fount of all wisdom. So you'd end up hanging your own mates.<<<<<

Yup, you're right. The level of child abuse, sex trafficking, rapes, murders and physical abuse is RAMPANT in 'Native America'.....and if you look at all these links, you'll start to understand why.

Oh...by the way, I should just point out that around 88% (did you hear that?) EIGHTY EIGHT PERCENT of abuse against Native American Women is carried out by...wait for it....by NON-Native Men.

Why? Well, The Bastards know they can get away with on the Reservations, you see, for these crimes do not come under the investigation of your friendly local police department, because non-natives cannot be prosecuted for what happens on the Reservations...

Cool, huh?

Child abuse? Yup...did you know that in some States the Child Protection Schemes get paid almost DOUBLE for Native American Children taken into custody? And that all Native American children are deemed to be 'at risk', thus making it far easier to take them away of course...And when they're taken, they don't go to extended and willing families, nor even to Native Foster Homes, or Official Native Foster specially built buildings...they go to White Families or official Foster Homes run by the White Folks, whilst the brand new Native American ones remain empty or barely filled....Read the NPR reports...

Alcohol? Yup...Did you know that the many Lakota were arrested yet again a few months back for DARING to try to STOP The Corporate Alcohol Bastards from selling MILLIONS of can of beer to the Lakota, just off Pine Ridge, in a town called White Clay, a town of barely ANY people, but one where EVERY shop sells alcohol?

Did you know alcohol is banned in Pine Ridge, for the People are DESPERATELY trying to help themselves out of the mess the White Man got them into, through Boarding Schools, Sexual Abuse, Rape, Murder, Verbal Abuse, Bullying, Genocide and...of course, not forgetting the 'Good Ol' Silent, Secret Holocaust!

And did you know that when they were arrested they loaded them in a cattle/horse truck, because they'd locked their arms together, so they drove them off like animals, breaking EVERY health and safety rule going, had them standing up in a long line in a long truck....and of course, they, the police that is, also pepper-sprayed a 10 year old boy who was standing with his Mum...

Murder? YUP! Did you know that around 600 First Nations women in Canada have been murdered or are missing? And did you know that the police and the government are doing BUGGER ALL about it??? Did you know that the People are marching to demand Justice? Did you know that the Native American MEN are marching themselves to demand Justice????

And just in case you missed it, I'll repeat this.
'Did you know that around 88% of sexual abuse against Native American women is done by NON-Native Men?"

Did you know that Native Americans themselves are starting to stand up and say "ENOUGH!" to ALL the abuse, the drinking, the depression, the suicides, the government shit, the racism, the GENOCIDE?

Did you know all of this?

Well, you do now....

And if you don't believe me, take a look...................


NPR - Native American Foster Care Scandal (several pages and videos)
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/25/141672992/native-foster-care-lost-children-shattered-families

How abusers get away with targetting Native American Women
http://www.salon.com/2012/12/13/how_abusers_get_away_with_targeting_indian_women/

Call to Action on Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women in Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWj0AHuJyEs

To The Indigenous Women - The 1491s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IInchmLs2wg

Men March for missing Aboriginal and Indigenous Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LuvUUY4e8M

Sexual Assault Epidemic Against Native American Women
http://www.care2.com/causes/sexual-assault-epidemic-against-native-americans-will-vawa-help.html

Stream - Al Jazeera - Justince Denied for Native American Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwt3KJqiCSY

Sex Trafficking Rampant in Indian Country; Pimps on Prowl for Native Girls
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/article/sex-trafficking-rampant-in-indian-country%3B-pimps-on-prowl-for-native-girls-72621

The Thick Dark Fog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uxtVtBhceY

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 09:09 AM

Point taken, 999. I used to be one of the 'Hang 'em' brigade, and I'm still sometimes sufficiently outraged by an especially heinous crime to **almost** wish we still had the death penalty. But I regard executions of convicted people who are later found to be innocent far, far worse than the original offence for which they were wrongly found guilty. So I believe that the risk of an irreversible miscarriage of justice makes the death penalty a barbaric practice which no decent, civilised nation should embrace - to do so makes us no better than those we would put to death.

But that's a personal view, and I accept that others have a different opinion......that's fair enough.