BS: Sacristan Duties

Subject: BS: Holy Hanky
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:20 PM

Recently our vicar noticed that a little white cloth which is used in some way on the altar needed a wash. As the elderly lady who does it is a bit frail, I offered to launder it. I took it home and bunged it in the washing machine with all the white things and ironed it. Now it turns out that this bit of cotton cloth is in some way sacred, and should have been soaked in plain water, not in a plastic bowl but a 'good quality china one' for two hours. The soaking water should be reverently poured 'on bare earth' and the cloth then washed separately. It should be ironed in such a way that it ends up folded into nine squares. Now, this is in the Church of England, which doesn't (as far as I know) subscribe to transubstantiation. Am I alone in thinking all this so much mumbo-jumbo and verging on the idolatrous? It made me think of that film 'Life of Brian' where people go about worshipping shoes. To me, a bit of cloth is a bit of cloth. It's no holier than my husband's vests.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: mg
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:25 PM

well at least you know now how to wash your husband's vests.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:26 PM

Tell the vicar you had the devil's own time getting it clean. You won't have time to worry about washing it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:28 PM

Actually some of my husband's vests are holier than this Holy Hanky. I must get round to doing a bit of mending!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:29 PM

Transubstantiation/transmutation is symbolic in the CoE. It is 'real' in the Catholic faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Megan L
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:29 PM

It comes under the category "But we have always done it that way" of course the person who did it originally did not have soap powder or a machine and may have folded it in three before ironing to fit it on whatever they were ironing on .

It reminds me of the lady who was showing a young woman how to boil a ham. She cut of a corner of the joint although the pot was way big enough to take the whole thing. The young woman asked why they had to do that. After much thought the answer was "I dont know it was the way my mother showed me I will ask her." so of she went to her mother who gave the same answer. Thankfully granny was still around and they both went to ask her.

"Well I don't know why you do it I had to do it because my pot was to small."

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:31 PM

Not only have I no intention of doing Holy Laundry ever again, I'm seriously considering finding a more Low Church. I've never heard anything so absurd in my life. I was astounded actually!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:33 PM

I thought the same as you Megan, so I went on line and looked up C of E Sacristan Duties. It's all there, Holy Hankies have to be laundered like that. Crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:36 PM

10 "Hail Marys" and call it a day, Eliza...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:38 PM

When Catholics mess up like that they just lie about it and fess up once a year at Reconciliation (used to be called Confession).

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:38 PM

Eliza:

If it weren't for all the furbelows and howdie-do's, the C of E clerics would look silly prancing around the way they do. You are absolutely correct about the idolatry--the hanky is just a woven image. Nothing substantive to it, and the washing machine will do just fine as long as the colors don't run!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:44 PM

If the vicar doesn't read Mudcat, you'll be ok....otherwise I suppose they'll need to consecrate a new Holy Hankie.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:51 PM

Ah, Eliza, you have run afoul of the Altar Guild rules, you bad thing, you.

What a load of ol' dishwater that vicar is feeding you. He should have said Thank you nicely and folded that dratted purificator himself, or taken it home himself in the first place if holy laundry is that important to him.

And I write this as a life-long Anglican. My mother used to bring home the church linen and silver for cleaning because the church well was contaminated with sulfur, and there was no nonsense about china bowls and tipping the wash water onto the earth -- not in an Ontario winter.

It's clear from the Gospels that Jesus ate his meals where he could get them, and I bet he wiped his chin with his sleeve.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:01 PM

I've heard the story that back a century or two ago, in pre-revolution Russia, the Czar's young daughter saw the first snowflake of winter fall in the garden below her window. At least, the first one she saw fall. She sent a palace guardsman down to the garden to stand by the snowflake and keep anything from happening to it. It was exceeding cold, so the flake was probably not going to melt and disappear any time soon.

Years, actually several decades later, someone asked why there was always a palace guardsman standing watch in the garden. Nobody knew why until some elderly servant recalled the princess sending the guardsman down there to guard the snowflake.

Maybe something like that?

In any case, I really doubt that God will get that ticked off about it. Be of good cheer.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:10 PM

As a practising Roman Catholic, I'd say your vicar has got confused between the ceremonial and the actual purpose of religion. Obsession with that sort of flim-flam about something of no real significance at all at the very least risks a distraction from thinking about more important stuff, like what the church is doing to help the locality.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:12 PM

Now if the hanky belonged to a Morris side... ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:56 PM

I've been an Anglican all my life, except when I lived in Scotland and went to the Episcopalian church for a while. I'd never heard of all this before now though. It is indeed a 'purificator' or else a 'corporal' Charmion, not sure which. We don't have incense or genuflect etc, so it's not all that High Church. If I chucked the Holy Hanky Water on the garden, it's quite likely one of my cats would have a nice poo right there, what's sacred about that? It's all ridiculous, my old father would have had something to say, he was a very Calvinistic Presbyterian! I'll have to tell the Vicar I won't be washing this Sacred Hanky again. I agree that the chap could do it for himself if he wants to worship a cloth. It's very dodgy to get so intense about ordinary objects.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:01 PM

LOL, Martin. I absolutely adore Morris dancing and would gladly launder their hankies (and burnish their baldricks) any time!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:03 PM

Sounds like a lotta hanky panky ta me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:18 PM

I have know several sacristans who were deeply reverent and able to explain their practices' relevance quite beautifully. Our parish has a little Altar Guild handbook that explains all of them. We consider Altar Guild (sacristan) duties to be quite a serious ministry.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM

Ritual has a large place in all religions, ancient and modern.

just been watching a film on South American peoples who dripped blood from animal sacrifices on to ceremonial stones to encourage fertility in the earth.
It seemed to work for thousands of years, but nature finally tired of the game, the atmophere warmed up and the people died or lived on grubs and leaves......you win a few, you lose a few.

But nature rules!!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:12 PM

Frippery is frippery no matter how much arbitrary signifying you attach to it. You could turn an ordinary pair of roller skates into Blessed Vehicles of Spiritual Transformation if you could get a big enough crowd to buy in, and bless them if they wouldn't get all the frissons in the world out of it, too. That makes it useful for crowd control, but it does not add any truth to it. It's purely a postulated relationship, and each participant manufactures his own frissons.
That's how frissons work, for goodness sake. They are all home-made.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: gnomad
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:08 PM

The time for the vicar to raise any question of methods of laundry for this item would be before handing it over, such particular arrangements are certainly not common knowledge.

It sounds to me as though the vicar is laying-off his guilt onto Eliza, who can politely but firmly decline it. Her mistake (if such it was, though that seems debatable at best) was caused by his neglect of his duties as he sees them.

Of course if the criticism is coming from the ousted "elderly lady" (or even worse, from someone who has decided to be offended on her behalf) then a whole new set of politics comes into effect. The only way to win that game is not to play.

Ironing a square into 9 smaller squares isn't rocket science, check if he wants it starched (I am guessing yes, it helps the cloth to 'stand', and will reduce soiling between washings). Of course this presupposes that he lets you touch it again.

The offended party could always replace the cloth, and make suitable arrangements for future ritual purifications, if (s)he feels sufficiently motivated, otherwise it might be time for him/her to wind in his/her neck practice a little humility.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:43 PM

I'm a sacristan with the Romans. Our parish was new in 2005, and nobody knew what a sacristan was. Now, the stereotypical Catholic sacristan is a fussy, mousy eunuch; and I had no desire to fit that model. So...I reinvented the role into a sort of concierge. I make sure everybody feels happy and welcome, anticipate and resolve problems before they happen, and make sure all the volunteers show up and all the jobs are done. My job often involves heavy-duty electronics, plumbing, and custodial work. I maintain the illusion that I know everything because I had eight years of seminary training, and that keeps everybody happy.

Whether you believe in transubstantiation or hold to other interpretations of the Lord's Supper, the consecrated bread and wine used in Eucharist are sacred, and should be so. If you lose the sense of the sacred in ritual (religious or otherwise), then the ritual becomes empty and routine. Everything connected to the ritual should be treated as important, because it conveys an important meaning. This also should apply to graduation ceremonies and even birthday parties. Otherwise, these rituals lose their meaning.

We do the initial washing of chalices, corporals, and purificators in a sink called a sacrarium - it's just a plain sink with a cover, and it drains to the ground instead of into the sewage system. Then the obsessive-compulsive ladies of the Altar Society take the cloths home and launder them in their own washing machines.

It's hard to get red wine stains out of white linens. There are some enzyme soaks that do a pretty good job, though. I tried to talk our priest into switching from red to amber-colored wine to reduce the stains, but he wouldn't buy that. I was raised in Wisconsin with amber wine, he in Ireland with red wine. But the ladies of the Altar Society do a good job and keep him happy, so bless them for that.

Eliza, if you had done what you did in MY church, I would have thanked you profusely and offered to buy you a beer. So, not to worry.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 11:20 PM

I maintain the illusion that I know everything because I had eight years of seminary training

You sure you feel comfortable asserting this naked truth, Joe?? ;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:26 AM

Hey, Amos - illusions have brought me a long, long way in this life. In thirty years as a federal investigator, I maintained the illusion that I had authority. In actuality, all I had was my ballpoint pen and my boyish charm and good looks....
And if that doesn't work, I buy the other person a beer, and it all works out.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 03:51 AM

Joe:
Red wine stains on corporals or purificators:
We have a sufficient supply that we don't wash them after every service (build up a small wash-load). What we do have (in the vicar's vestry) is a small bowl (plastic I'm sorry to say) containing water & table salt. Soaking immesiately after use usually removes any wine stains prior to taking home for laundry.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:24 AM

Wysiwyg, I'm not and never have been a member of an Altar Guild neither am I a sacristan. To me, the stains on any cloth are just wine, not Christ's blood. The rinsing water can be chucked anywhere and I'm sure God doesn't mind a bit. He's much too great to be concerned with where it goes. I imagine (perhaps I'm wrong) that He'd rather one turned one's attention to helping the struggler, than be revering a Holy Hanky. Maybe I've inherited my Presbyterian father's religious views after all. I'm just not sure I want to belong to a Church that has this stance. Obviously, there is such a thing as sacrilege and one should be respectful in church, but this is taking things too far. I need to give it some thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:29 AM

A long soak (3 hours or more) in bio detergent initially at 30 deg C does the job nicely. As a small country parish church, we tend to be pragmatic about this sort of thing.

Mind you, IIRC the Book of Common Prayer does say that leftover consecrated elements should be "consumed reverently" by the celebrant assisted, if necessary, by communicant church members. We understand "reverently" to exclude saying "cheers" on draining the Cup. "The Lord Jesus, his very good health" might be marginally acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:42 AM

Chalk up two points for BobL for that last post....

Touché

---

Eliza, to many Anglicans and most Roman Catholics, the wine stains are the blood of Christ, and should be dealt with respectfully. I happen to think Christ doesn't mind and doesn't get all fussy about these things, but I do think it's important to respect people's sense of what's sacred [without going crazy about it]. That being said, I'm going to try Nigel's saltwater soak - in a practical, plastic bowl. Cold or hot water, Nigel? Do you soak them continuously until you launder them?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:05 AM

Sorry Joe, but I don't believe that Anglicans hold with the idea of transubstantiation. The whole act of communion to a Protestant is to remember Jesus' Last Supper and the subsequent sacrifice on the cross, but the bread and wine don't in any way change. We also have the vicar finish off the wine himself, it would presumably go off otherwise. Do you know, this situation has really got to me. After over sixty years in the Church of England, I never realised all the theology behind the scenes. I hope I can reconcile myself to it. If not, I'll have to decide what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:12 AM

I don't attend regularly. Last time was at a funeral. Many of those who took communion, including me as part of my respect for the deceased, passed by the wine steward (hey, I thought it ws funny and even God likes a joke). Is this common? Is it disrespectful? I think it's "sanitary" as I really don't care to drink from the same cup used by a number of people. I had another reason but nevermind.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:14 AM

Eliza talk to your minister explain to him how this has made you feel, any clergy who cares about his or her congregation will do what they can to ensure the wellbieng of the people they serve.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:35 AM

Notwithstanding any contribution from me on the subject of religion will be seen as flippant or even condescending...

I reckon that ritual is of very high importance to a religion. It is the least metaphysical and the most tangible part of the art. Considering the charity, helping others and being a god citizen part are not exclusive to religions, it just appears logical to me that ritual is taken seriously.

With regard to what Jesus would say, why don't you ask him?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: banjoman
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:35 AM

Strict Obvservance of ritual is, I feel, similar to the stance of the Pharisees who belived that observance of the law was all that was necessary for redemption. In the Catholic church (UK) at the present time, we are being asked to abandon years of music and hymns which we have used at services for over 40 years because they dont adhere strictly to the revised words of the liturgy.
My own feeling is that this is a ploy by the church higherarchy to curtail the power of the laity.
I believe that there are far more important things the Christian churches should be concerned about than adherence to ritual practices and words.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:37 AM

well, there are some stains at least in the Catholic church that no amount of angel soap can ever completely wash away. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Michael
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 06:15 AM

Not even in the Magdalene Laundries?
(See John Mulhern's lyrics, sung by, amongst other,s Grace Notes)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 07:01 AM

I am an Anglican and this is new to me.
It is true that the elements have to be all consumed and not left lying around once consecrated.
I have sometimes had to help finish off the wine.

My partner, a Methodist, gives the bread to the birds and hopes to be forgiven.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 07:05 AM

I'd offer to wash it every week, then throw it in the washing machine with my knickers...and hand it to the vicar with a BIG smile on my face...and catch Jesus winking at me from his stained glass window...

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:02 AM

LOL Lizzie! I doubt whether I'll be asked again. But if so, I'll just explain it will go in with the normal 'whites' wash and if this is unacceptable, I'll suggest someone else takes it on. I feel it's best to 'get over rough ground as lightly as possible' without making a song-and-dance about it. Meanwhile I'll re-think my membership. As it is, I'm on the PCC, Friends of the Church Committee, a Reader, Sidesperson, Fundraising Committee and Church Cycle Ride Co-ordinator. So I'd better make up my mind where I stand on this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:07 AM

Sacrificing a chicken to expiate your sin should make it all good.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:21 AM

I once read a book (aimed at American Jews in the 1970s) about how to keep a properly Jewish household. One little tip was that when re-using your oven for meat after cooking a milk-based dish in it or the other way round, you should work over the entire interior surface with a propane torch.

Maybe the original Hebrew version of Leviticus has propane torches in it. The English translators seem not to have understood that bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:34 AM

Haha Jack! I don't suppose they had washing machines in the sixteenth century either! You know, to complete atheists, all this rigmarole must seem hilarious if not utterly contemptible!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:45 AM

While holy hanky washing rituals are no doubt par for the course in some Christian denominations, all that fuss over a piece of grubby linen, certainly seems like a strangely esoteric business for a Protestant church to indulge in.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:02 AM

To all gentlemen of the cloth, meant in the best psossible taste.

Theres nuthin brands a man in life as plainly as his hanky

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

Davie is the tops.....Scotlands greatest poet and songwriter since Rabbie Burns.
here

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:48 AM

Eliza wrote, "I'm seriously considering finding a more Low Church."

Let me see. Somebody, probably the old and sickly woman, criticized Eliza's laundering. Meanwhile

Do you like the music of the church, Eliza?
Does the minister give intelligent, helpful sermons?
Do you have friends there?
Does the church do good works for those who need help?
Are you turning your back on a lot of people trying to do right because one person was silly?

============
I'm reminded of the old song that jokes

Go get the ax; there's a flea in Lizzie's ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:15 PM

Joe, your ineffable charm is irresistible and ineluctable.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:23 PM

Thank you leeneia for your sensible approach to my dilemma. No, I sometimes don't like the music all that much as they have a taste for modern 'happy clappy' songs and even the old hymns have had their words changed to be non-sexist. The sermons are a bit airy fairy at times. The oldest friends I have don't go to this (or any) church. The congregation seem more concerned about raising money for repairing the church's leaky roof and collapsing tower and don't involve themselves awfully much with the 'village people'. As the vicar is rector of six churches he doesn't have much time for individuals. If I left, I doubt whether I'd be much missed as they're rather cliquey and seem a bit hostile to newcomers. (I haven't been living here as long as some of them.) I go to church there to worship God, which I could do in any church frankly. I feel this Holy Hanky thing has brought to a head some concerns I've had for a while now.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:45 PM

Perhaps you tend more toward a Quaker style of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:13 PM

Yes, mg, or something a bit plainer than C of E. Maybe I should follow my sister in Scotland. She's a member of the Kirk!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:49 PM

"I go to church there to worship God, which I could do in any church frankly."

You could do that OUT of any church, too. You talking to those around you or you talking to God?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 03:20 PM

My first thought when I read the title was stand guard at the door and make sure nothing happens. And read up on Mahoney and Curry if you can stomach it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:06 PM

bruce-you are quite right that worship can happen outside the church but many christians see meeting together as prescibed practise to be maintained even if not entirely happy about everything or everyone in the church.hebrews 10 v24,25.
if i were to be labeled,i suppose i would be non-conformist.i believe the bread and wine are symbolic of the blood and body of Christ and should be treated reverently during the eucharist but are ordinary otherwise.i would have no argument with anyone stricter, but for me it is substance of the symbol not the substance itself that matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM

Well, thank you everyone for your comments, advice and support. I haven't discussed this with anyone as I don't feel I wanted to confide in people who know me. But it's so nice to air my concerns on Mudcat and have the kind and interested responses given here. Thank you so much, you've all helped me a great deal. Eliza x

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 09:46 AM

You are welcome ... a breath of fresh air amongst the BS

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 08:07 PM

Eliza, please remember that all of this can be fun - it should be fun. If it isn't, try to figure out a way to fix it. If that doesn't work, find a better situation.
I've had to do some battling to get my church to where I feel comfortable, and I think I've been fairly successful. I have a great time every Sunday - and I have friends to lean on if somebody tries to dump on me (and church people can be especially good at dumping on people).

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 04:22 AM

Although the CoE officially rejects the doctrine of transubstantiation (see the 39 Articles of Religion in BCP), the consecrated elements are nevertheless symbols of Christ's presence. And as with other symbols - national flags, for example, or pictures of loved ones - lack of respect might cause hurt or at least discomfort to others. The degree to which this happens, and whether such feelings are reasonable, will always be one of those things on which debate is endless and profitless.

I think the bottom line is that sometimes you have to avoid treading on people's toes, sometimes it's better to suggest, politely, that they keep their toes out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 11:42 AM

Eliza,
You took a task with a good heart, it doesn't sound to me like you're the one that messed up and it strikes me as unkind (and unnecessarily hurtful) if someone is pointing a rude finger at you.

If this piece of fussy fabric is truly revered as sacredly precious, why was it allowed to get dingy enough to need help from a non-trained good deed doer?
Why was it put in your hands without Proper Instruction if there are unusual rules for taking care of it?



I'm not churchy and don't know much about fancy hankies.
What is the one we're talking about used for? Does it hide the bread, or is it the one for wiping spit off the cup?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Crowhugger
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 03:03 PM

Eliza, he set you up to fail, whether he meant to or not. Then afterwards he made sure to let you know you HAD failed. I can think of many things a decent person might do in the same situation (situation being he perhaps realized too late that he'd failed to ensure adequate laundry instructions were given), and your vicar's actions are not on the list. This man, in a position of trust and whose role is to minister to you, chose to be cruel. Your own comfy chair will make a suitable place of worship until you find a church to your liking.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 03:21 PM

The cloth thing is (I think, because I only go up to the altar to kneel and take communion, you can't really see what's happening on the table throughout the service) goes under the chalice to catch any drops. There's another cloth which wipes the chalice after each person drinks. The first 'hanky' is the one you have to iron into nine equal squares. At the end of the service the vicar folds it up and drapes it over the cup before he carries it away. The second 'hanky' you don't fold into nine squares. But both should be soaked and the water gently poured onto bare earth etc etc.
I've been looking this up on Google and I think they're called 'corporal' and 'purificator' respectively, but I've no idea really, and I don't know which hanky I washed. And I shan't be offering to do it again I can tell you! I am seriously considering other churches not quite so 'high'. And if one believes in God, one feels He's everywhere anyway. And I'm sure He won't be cross about my Holy Hanky desecration!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 05:52 PM

Hi, Pete. Matthew 6,6.

However, I do see where you're coming from :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 06:19 PM

This has me thinking about the last time I watched communion. It seems like the priest held the chalice with a folded napkin-looking cloth..like using a potholder. I'm pretty sure I thought he was doing that to keep from fingerprinting.
His other hand was the rim wiper.

If I'm remembering that accurately, the potholder cloth would be the Corporal (does that mean 'blood catcher only'?) and the wipey would be Purificator?

Joe,
Does the Purificator have a disinfectant on it, or is there a special blessing on it to keep germs from being shared with the wine?


I really wish we could have occasional threads where we oddly curious ones (namely Me) could just have a rambling, considerate, conversation about things like this.
I'm learning unexpected things from your hurt feeling experience, Eliza. I am glad you started this thread!

..of course, now you've got me wondering why it's ok for diluted wine (via rinse water) to be poured on good earth..but not for the rest of the bottle to be reverently disposed of the same way.

Apologies for pulling your thread a bit sideways.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:31 AM

Thank you so much for your kind comments Melissa. Isn't it great to have a thread where everyone is interesting, considerate, polite and non-confrontational? That's not to say that other people can't have a real old ding-dong battle which gets acrimonious. Mudcat is super because all kinds of discussions and tones are available, from the quiet and reflective to the furious and insulting! And you haven't pulled my thread sideways. I love it when a thread develops and twists about, just as in face-to-face conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:40 AM

Hi, Melissa -

I like teaching people about these things. Our religious education director has me teach the kids this stuff because they like my stories. I'm not much for rules and regulations, but I love the richness of traditions and the stories behind them - even the quirky stories. I know the rules and regulations better than just about any priest I know - it's a good defense against the legalists who try to force others to do things their way.

In the Roman church, the corporal (square cloth folded into nine squares) is used on the altar underneath golden vessels holding the consecrated bread and wine. I suppose there are all sorts of interpretations of its purpose - simply put, it signifies that place on the altar as a special, sacred place. Functionally, it also serves to keep the main altar cloth clean. It's used only on the altar.

The purificator (oblong cloth used for wiping the chalice) is just a white cloth - don't know if it's required to be linen, but it's usually called "linen." I suspect it's usually cotton - synthetics supposedly tend to scrape the gold plating off the chalice. Sometimes, a purificator will be used for holding gold vessels that are likely to be damaged by fingerprints. Purificators are portable, multi-purpose cloths, and corporals stay on the altar.

But no, there is no disinfectant other than the alcohol in the wine, and there's no belief that consecration kills germs. Our lay ministers do use hand sanitizer before distributing communion, however. Ever since communion "under both species" (bread and wine) was instituted after Vatican II in the 1970s, there has been discussion about whether communion from a common cup is sanitary. It's optional, and conservative and squeamish people avoid the cup. People with colds also seem to be pretty good about passing the cup by.

Our bishop seems to be on the careful side, so he prohibits the cup and does not allow people to receive communion on the tongue during flu season (such as now). I suppose it's not a bad idea to be safe. Some conservatives get upset about having to receive communion in their hand, but that doesn't seem to be a big issue in our parish (the conservatives go to the other parish in town). Oh, and we're not supposed to shake or hold hands during flu season.

I heard years ago there were "studies" made that determined that the common cup was a negligible factor in the spread of disease - not that I can actually find any record of such studies. I also haven't heard of any terrible epidemics in Catholic parishes....

I can't say I think the purificator does a whole lot of good, other than stopping drips. I try to rotate it and the chalice so I'm not always using the same spot on the cloth or chalice - not that I think it helps at all, but I think people feel more comfortable when they see me make an effort. Drinking from the common cup has rich symbolism and I like it, so I've taken the risk for forty years or more. Since I'm the sacristan and more-or-less the chief usher, I'm usually the last to drink from the cup, so I suppose I get everybody's germs. I figure the slightly-drunk germs serve to strengthen my immune system.

I suppose that deep inside me, there's a defiant element that demands that I receive communion from lay ministers in my hand and from the common cup, and never while kneeling. These are privileges we won in Vatican II, and there are conservatives constantly demanding that these practices be abolished because they consider them irreverent. They want people to kneel down at a rail with their tongues out. So, I proudly take the cup, risk of infection be damned.

And hey, I'm still here and I'm still healthy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:58 AM

When I have got a bug I just dip the wafer instead of sipping.
Some choose to do that when flu is about.

My Mary's Methodist church uses individual "shot" type glasses.
Methodists do not have the protection of alcohol in the wine.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,MG
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 09:07 AM

what is wrong with kneelig? i dno admit i do not like sticking my tongue out and never do but i don't mind kneeling in the least. also why don't people kneel after commun ion? makes no sense to me..i always kneel after communion. and don't drink the wine except for a couple times just so on judgement day i could say i did.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM

What's wrong with kneeling to receive communion, MG? Nothing, if that's what you like. But to me, kneeling seems like a symbol of subservience to authority. My relationship with God isn't subservient.

For me, it's a symbol of a rigid, harsh, legalistic form of Catholicism that is distasteful to me. I'd rather enjoy being a Catholic.

And it you have some kneelers and some standers, it make a confusing mess out of distributing communion. Same after communion - if some kneel, some sit, and some stand - the people don't mesh very well together in the pews unless the church is very sparsely filled.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 09:08 PM

Oy, Joe. If only we could clone you and your spirit. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if they put you in charge, or even just listened to you, the Catholic church wouldn't have no problems.

Just sayin'.

On a trivial personal note, the day I was received as an Episcopalian was the same day the beautiful aumbry was dedicated in our pretty little church. Every time I see it, I feel a little bit special : )

There's a place for such frippery. No more, no less.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 07:03 AM

Joe, as an atheist who understands the beneficial effects of "faith" in our society, I can never get my head around where you fit into the picture.
You appear to see the place of ritual in your faith yet seem eager to rock the boat on almost every occasion available.
Even to me, kneeling before your "god" seems emminently sensible, surely a form of worship?...I sometimes say a silent "prayer" for the survival of the forces of nature against the sustained attacks of "civilisation"....and would do so on my knees without a thought.
Even as an atheist, I am only too aware of my place in the great scheme of things!
I also do not understand your embrace of political policies designed in many cases to destroy religion, like the redefinition of Christian marriage.
Do you not realise that the people who promote these policies are the most voluble enemies of religion, which they see as the last bastion of conservatism. "Gay marriage" constitutes a veritable fifth column within the church.
"Turning the other cheek" is a laudable christian principle, but in these changed days, could turn out to be a painful "thorn in the flesh" :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 09:36 AM

Sacristan, is that near Uzbekistan? (Or uzbekibekistan)?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:15 AM

No, Stringsinger, it's near Durham (UK)

;-)

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: ranger1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:23 AM

Ake, Joe illustrates the difference between being a person of faith and a blind follower of dogma. There is a difference between what Christ taught and what church establishment has turned it into. There is comfort in ritual, but ritual doesn't have to be static. I'm not Christian, either, I don't see Christ as the messiah, more of a social reformer and spiritual teacher, one of many from many different faiths. What Joe is doing in the church is using his faith to influence the social change that I think Christ the man was trying to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: ranger1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:23 AM

But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:29 AM

Joe, I do not think anyone stands for communion in UK, Catholic or not, unless they have a physical difficulty.
Anyone else confirm my experience?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:37 AM

In my experience as a UK Catholic, Keith, *everyone* stands to receive communion, unless they are wheelchair bound, or similar. After communion, most sit or kneel.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 11:10 AM

I have never stood to receive communion Keith. Only an elderly lady who cannot kneel stands to receive it. (I often help her up to the altar). We also kneel to pray. (This is in the Church of England) But I have attended many many Catholic masses and there everyone stands to receive and also to pray. I truly have no problem with ritual directly connected to the service (eg Communion, Evensong etc, such as lighting candles) It's a way of doing honour to God, and continues traditions. What I find impossible to accept and to carry out is superstitious nonsense connected to mere objects long after the service is over, such as treating a bit of cloth as if it were a Holy Hanky. It's not as if I cleaned the toilet with it, just popped it in the washing machine as anyone with any sense would do. Actually, I don't even hold with revering objects supposedly directly connected with Jesus ('relics', Turin Shroud etc) They are just physical items and no different to any other items. In my opinion one loses the point by concentrating on these instead of directing one's attentions to carrying out the religion (ie trying to do good, helping others, praying for others, making an effort to do no harm etc etc) Waving Holy Hankies about won't help anyone to do this!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 11:20 AM

The only Catholic Mass I have attended was at my son's wedding, and of course could not participate.
I never noticed they were standing.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 11:54 AM

There were a lot of changes to the Catholic rituals in the sixties under a series of reforms Catholics refer to as Vatican II. One of several physical changes was the removal of communion rails. One effect of this is that there is nothing to rest against if you are kneeling, making the act quite a bit more physically demanding. So standing is both easier and quite a lot quicker than having each person kneel in turn. Before Vatican II and in Church of England (as similar) the use of rails with the minister moving along the entire width makes both ways of receiving almost equally practical.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 12:06 PM

Ake, I think if you go back to the original source materials (the actual teachings of Christ as recorded by his Disciples) you will find that forgiveness and tolerance carry a lot more importance than constraints and moral strictures. The line about who gets to cast the first stone comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 03:59 PM

Ake, I really appreciate your questions. Remember that I have eight years of training in a Catholic seminary, so it's not like I'm inventing my own religion or something (although I know at least a couple former seminarians who did invent their own).

I have studied (and taught) the Scriptures and Catholic teachings and tradition all my life - from a middle-of-the road to progressive standpoint, mind you. None of that literalist, fundamentalist stuff for me. I know and love Catholic tradition and ritual. I respect the "rules," but I see the function of the rules as preserving authenticity, not exerting authority. And I abhor the idea of slavish adherence to the rules.

For me, the primary element of my religious faith is joy. I go to church to celebrate, not out of submission or obligation. And when I go, I have a wonderful time. The word "authority" has no place in my religious faith - and neither do shame or guilt. For me, "sin" is causing harm, not breaking rules. Religious faith is supposed to help us overcome sin, not wallow in guilt over it. I take Jesus at his word when he says, "The kingdom of God is at hand," and I don't wait for it to come after I die. There is so much to do and so much to celebrate in this life. I see my role in life as participating in God's creation, of bringing all things to good. I feel an obligation to serve God's creation, especially the poor and oppressed. I'm expecting something good will come after death, but I'm not waiting around for it because my life is so full that I'm really busy savoring its richness.

I don't deny suffering and sorrow, but I don't look on them as punishment. In fact, I don't think God punishes us - we are punished by the consequences of our own actions. Faith gives us what we need to overcome suffering and sorrow, or at least to make it meaningful.

I don't see my perspective as the only valid perspective - I see mine as a work in progress, and I think that everyone has at least an amount of validity in his or her own perspective. The whole picture is somewhere in the mix of all those perspectives, the perspectives of the whole spectrum of believers and nonbelievers. I don't think my perspective is on the 'liberal fringe." It's well within the mainstream of Catholic and Christian tradition - although a more somber perspective is also part of the mainstream.

That being said, I feel obligated to accept and explore the aspects of validity in the perspectives of those who take a more somber and authoritarian view of religious faith. But that's not for me. For me, kneeling is a medievalism, a sign of submission to authority. Standing is a sign of celebration, so standing for communion is far more meaningful for me. And sitting at ease is, the best posture for reflection, study, and prayer.

I'm not alone in my perspective. It's widespread in the Catholic Church, especially in the older, more authentically traditional religious orders - most Franciscans and Jesuits are good examples. A couple of years ago, I became an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy, because I have much in common with those wise, wonderful nuns. This perspective has been alive in the Christian church throughout its history. Much of it got lost amidst the politics of intrigue of medieval times, but it survived among the mystics and was quite healthy in religious orders and some local churches. The Second Vatican Council brought a rebirth of this perspective in the Catholic Church, and then the contemptible but popular John Paul II did his best to suppress it during his 25-year reign.

I've been quite successful in fostering this perspective in the parishes I have belonged to in my lifetime, although it has often been a struggle to get the overly pietistic ones to at least tolerate us who have a more joyful and positive point of view. When the struggle gets to me and I feel myself getting angry, I spend some time with the nuns and they bring me back to a more gentle perspective.

So, Ake, there you have it. That's as honest a presentation as I can make. I practive my faith from a position of freedom, not obligation. I see the Catholic Church as MY church - it's mine every bit as much as it's the Pope's church. I pay attention to what he has to say and I have at least some level of respect for his authority, but I feel no obligation to obey him.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 04:35 PM

Eliza, I'm putting this below as I don't think you have a Facebook page, so a link to this won't be any good for you...It's from a FB friend of mine, James, over in America, who is a Quaker. I thought you might like to see it. And I'm with Bruce, no need for 'churches' to bring you close to The Spirit In The Sky... :0) xxx




>>>"All my Relations" vs. "Our Father"
        
        
My Friend Lizzie Cornish recently posted the Lakota prayer "Mitakuye Oyasin" ("All My Relations") on her Facebook page, with the comment that it beats the hell out of the Lord's Prayer. I have to confess that the Native American prayer is more universal in its message than the one Jesus is said to have recommended to his followers I think they serve different purposes.


Aho Mitakuye Oyasin

All my relations. I honor you in this circle of life with me today. I am grateful for this opportunity to acknowledge you in this prayer.

To the Creator, for the ultimate gift of life, I thank you.

To the mineral nation that has built and maintained my bones and all foundations of life experience, I thank you.

To the plant nation that sustains my organs and body and gives me healing herbs for sickness, I thank you.

To the animal nation that feeds me from your own flesh and offers your loyal companionship in this walk of life, I thank you.

To the human nation that shares my path as a soul upon the sacred wheel of Earthly life, I thank you.

To the Spirit nation that guides me invisibly through the ups and downs of life and for carrying the torch of light through the Ages, I thank you.

To the Four Winds of Change and Growth, I thank you.

You are all my relations, my relatives, without whom I would not live. We are in the circle of life together, co-existing, co-dependent, co-creating our destiny. One, not more important than the other. One nation evolving from the other and yet each dependent upon the one above and the one below. All of us a part of the Great Mystery.

Thank you for this Life.


The prayer is said by one person to a multiplicity of beings. It acknowledges that the Spirit infuses all living things, and all parts of planet Earth, not just human beings, and expresses gratitude for the cooperation and coexistence of all these beings, which sustains the person speaking the prayer as well as all the rest.

In contrast, the Lord's Prayer is said by a group of humans ("us") to a unitary male deity, begging him to remain sacred and in charge, to keep on feeding us so we stay alive, and to make it easy for us to continue behaving morally. It calls for a bargain in which we forgive the bad things others do to us and God in turn forgives us for all the bad things we have been doing (and continue to do) to others. It implies that perfection ("heaven") exists and that God can and should make our earthly life more like that perfection.

    Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name.
    Your kingdom come,
    your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
    Give us this day our daily bread,
    and forgive us our debts (trespasses, sins),
    as we also have forgiven our debtors (those who trespass against us).
    And lead us not into temptation (trials),
    but deliver us from evil (the evil one)
    for the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory are yours for ever


About that bargain, with the background of Jesus' other teachings in mind, we must assume that we are supposed to stop doing evil right now, so that the bargain can be final, but what if we keep doing bad things to other people? It doesn't ask that victims of our bad acts be made whole, but just that God forgive us on behalf of them; what happens to "them" is of no concern. The prayer is human-centered, in-group-centered and selfish. It also implies that the whim of God could kill us all off in an instant.

Both prayers express a passive attitude toward life and the workings of the Spirit. In the Lord's prayer, God is to remain sacred, all-powerful, and in charge, insuring that the world continues toward perfection. In the Lakota prayer, the relationship of all beings and all "nations" is eternal and dynamic, with no single part being in charge.

Thankfulness and cooperation are at the heart of the Lakota prayer. Fear and shame seem to underlie the Christian prayer.

The reality is that those who repeatedly say the Lord's Prayer have been among those who perpetrate many large-scale wrongs on each other and upon the other peoples and "nations" of the Earth. Those who recite the Lakota prayer have, to be fair, never been numerous enough to demonstrate the positive or negative outward effects of saying their prayer on a world scale.

I know that the mental and physical effects of reading or saying the Lakota prayer feel positive and helpful. Having grown up with the Lord's prayer, I feel anxious when I listen to the words, but peaceful if I just let it wash over me as an ancient formula, like singing or hearing an old ballad. We used to say in unison, along with the 23rd Psalm and the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school; I wonder whether my life would have been different if we had recited "All My Relations" each morning instead."<<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 04:47 PM

Hi, Lizzie -
I would submit that one can take a more positive, nurturing view of the Lord's Prayer. If your perspective of the Christian God is of a loving, nurturing, supporting, forgiving Being of nonspecific gender, then the Lord's Prayer can be quite positive.

If you see God as the One who forgives when no one else will forgive, that's a pretty big thing. If you see God as the Source of all Goodness, that's pretty big, too. Remember that St. John said God is Love. That puts a different spin on it, too.

The authoritarian view of God is not the only valid Christian perspective - and I don't think it's the view of God that Jesus had.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 05:14 PM

Hello, Joe! Big hug! xx

I'll keep quiet on this one, for a change..other than to say 'All My Relations' does it for me....

:0) xx

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 05:29 PM

Joe - you are obviously in a very fortunate position where you are. Don't ever let anyone in your parish let on to the powers that be in Rome at the moment how you see things - cos they'll be down on you like a ton of bricks.

I think you would be very surprised if you ever spent time in European / UK parishes: to the point of wondering if you were in the same church.

Does the name Hubert Richards mean anything to you - he was a prof in theology in Rome in the early 60s? I knew him in the early 70s when he was living in the parish I was in at the time. He was a lay person and married by then. He warned us liberals about the attitudes and ambitions of a certain Ratzinger then - and he was right.

I and mine collapsed (like lapsed, only more so) as the UK church slowly slid away from VAT 2, and started lurching into old ways of thinking.

Eliza - perhaps you will look back on this episode, and see how working through aspects of it clarify your own thinking and belief for the future. I wish you luck in your search.

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Janie
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 06:41 PM

I'm atheist, but really value the focus the rituals of the communal service of the Episcopal church to which I belong provide.

I'm sure if I attended a congregation where dogma reigned I might be very uncomfortable and the rituals might seem dogmatic to me. As it is, I find the shared rituals of the service provide a focal point and a shared experience that are reminders that while we are individuals, we also are dependent on community and exist within the context of community. Also, that the function of institutions, ultimately, is to sustain social community which is essential for the survival of our species. (I know, lots of tensions involved, some of which are very tricky to resolve or balance.) Maybe because I was not "raised in a church" I do not generally have strong emotional reactions against "religion" or particular spiritual beliefs.

I do find ritual useful in my life, and once I became familar with the communal rituals of the service at my particular church, I found them comforting and inspiring, although perhaps not in the same way Christian believers experience them.

Some rituals have shifted over the years in my particular congregation. More people stand than kneel during particular parts of the service, although most people still kneel at the communion rail and those who don't are generally people who find it difficult to do so.

I genuflect when I enter the pew and kneel with head bowed for a moment or two before settling myself in the pew. I kneel during the parts of the service that indicate one should stand or kneel, and, when my knees allow, which is most of the time, I kneel at the alter rail for communion. Yes, I take communion. The rules of the church say all those baptized may do so, I was baptized earlier in my life, so it is "legal" and it is a rite of great meaning to me, only not quite the meaning perhaps it has to others.

To me, the kneeling and the genuflecting, and the bowing when the cross proceeds up the aisle are not bowing before a god I don't happen to think exists, it is an honoring of and a recognition that there is a power greater than myself on which ultimately my sustenance depends. Community. Other human beings in organized association and mindful living. Nature. The universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 08:12 PM

Thanks for taking the time Joe.
But why do you feel that you should address your god on equal terms....the Pope is not "god"

When I get into a "spiritual" mood I know that to my "god" (the life force), i am nothing, less than a grain of sand, a "god" that does not care whether I am liberal or conservative, rich or poor, stupid or intelligent, proud or humble.
My god demands respect, obedience and care from humanity.
If it is not forthcoming my "god" will wipe us from the face of the earth, like straws in the wind.

The cult of self has no place in spiritual matters.

I liked your post Janie......and Joe I dont mean to belittle what you have written I'm sure you are a genuinely good person, I just dont understand why you provide ammunition to those who would destroy all the good things in a belief system.
You must see them on these pages.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 02:39 AM

I just dont understand why you provide ammunition to those who would destroy all the good things in a belief system.

I guess he simply says what he believes to be the case. If others regard that as ammunition, it can't be helped.

For my part, I am ambivalent about ritual. It has lots of positive aspects as Janie said: they can be comforting and inspiring. Perhaps more importantly, they can provide a framework to assist with a deeper understanding of what your particular religion is about. On the other hand, they can be completely empty spaces, with no real significance, which are either an attempt to manipulate god ("you need to sacrifice a black chicken to appease the River-god") or - very commonly in Catholicism - an attempt by the hierarchy to exercise a worldly control over the organisation, exactly as any big business CEO and board might do.

Go back to to the original opening post. The ritual says the cloth should be folded into nine squares. Really? Do we believe God will regard us differently if we fold it into four rather than nine? Now, if the folding into thirds is connected with some meditative thoughts about the nature of the Trinity, that's a good thing. If its a rule from on high, its just a rule.

And it is this reason why some people like me regard Vatican II as so important. Like the sort of audits and reviews that might take place in any business these days, it started out by asking very fundamental questions - what is the relationships between the people, priest and God, for example - and seriously questioned all the rituals that had grown up over the centuries, jettisoning a lot of them as pointless superstition with no theological basis. Since then, as Joe pointed out, we have tended to behave in the typical human fashion and introduce a whole new bunch of rules and regulations, and currently have a centre, in the form of the Pope and his cardinals, that seem very keen on reasserting the centralised control that existed before Vatican II.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 03:53 AM

Well, DMcG, the square corporal is folded into nine squares for a very good reason: it looks good that way, with a crease pattern of nine squares when it's unfolded - and it's a nice, portable size.

The oblong purificator is folded into six oblong rectangles for the same reason - it looks good that way.

To add some mystical meaning to it, probably isn't necessary. From an aesthetic point of view, it looks nice.

Ake, why would I, as a free person, want to submit to an authoritarian church, or to an authoritarian God? I go to church because it makes my life richer and more meaningful. I'm an intelligent, well-behaved person - why do I need somebody else to impose a set of rules on me?

To my mind, Benedict XVI isn't all that bad, but I think he gets bad press because reporters don't understand him. Benedict tends toward conservatism, but at least he seems to be open to the discussion and to enjoy the discussion. John Paul II was nowhere near that open-minded.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 04:07 AM

I don't have a problem with things being done for aesthetic reasons either, Joe. Not so much because they 'look nice' as because they can make it very difficult for some people to concentrate if what they see appears haphazard and untidy. But that falls into a different category than saying do-this-because-I-say-so, in my mind. The example I gave on the folding the cloth was not to imbue it with a specific meaning, but as an attempt to illustrate how some people can use a ritual to feed their understanding, and there is no requirement for that idea to come from the authorities. On other occasions, though, the authorities may say 'we do it this way to help understand such and such', which may work for you, or it may not.

Maybe examining the cloth handling discussed above was not a good example, but I hope the gist is clear enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 04:33 AM

My suggestion:
    Wash it how you like, providing you don't damage it;
    Smile sweetly as you lie about what you did with the water.

What the eye doesn't see, the heart won't grieve over. If you don't get struck by lightning then you know you've got away with it.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 04:49 AM

Eliza - pop along one day and give your vicar a packet of paper hankies. That should do for a bit...

You know, to complete atheists, all this rigmarole must seem hilarious if not utterly contemptible!

Actually, not "contemptible", just irrelevant - to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 04:54 AM

I understand your point Doug, but I'm rather a direct and straight-to-the-point old lady. I wouldn't bother to lie to someone, I'd just say what I did with the wretched thing and, after they'd recoiled in horror, add that I wouldn't be doing it any more.
The Lakota Prayer was fascinating and moving. It actually expresses much of what I in my heart feel and believe. Not for nothing am I a Celt on both sides, Scots and Irish. I always have felt a great affinity with the natural world and recognise my place within it and how much I owe to the Creator who ordered it all. In fact, the greatest peace I ever feel is being alone deep in the countryside near to huge oaks, observing the wildlife around me and being 'at one' with it. Thank you so much Lizzie for taking the trouble to type it out for me, as I do not, as you say, have a Facebook page. But my early experiences of Christianity in the C of E were very good. I had gentle and exemplary vicars and Sunday school teachers, and never felt it to be repressive or condemnatory. However I had a foot in both camps so to speak as I also went to mass with my Catholic cousin. This was long before Vat 2, and I adored the elaborate ritual, Latin and incense etc. I even had a little mantilla to wear. My father used to have a fit, as he was raised a Presbyterian, but my mother wisely let me go with Anne. She believed in letting me find my own way. So I'm a bit ecumenical to say the least.
Have to say though, that Lakota Prayer touches me the most and puts into words things I've felt all my life. Hmmmm... what now I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 09:15 PM

I have to admit that I'm a little taken aback by the Altar Society ladies and their fierce devotion to their task of keeping those white cloths clean. There was an altar society lady in the sacristy today, collecting the dirty laundry. Because of this discussion, I took a chance and introduced myself to her. She was delightful. She takes great pride in her work, but she's very practical. She gave me all sorts of great laundry tips. She advises Oxiclean, without detergent.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 04:29 AM

Thank you Joe. I actually love doing laundry and truly believe the church and the various vestments and linen should be nice and clean. I'd gladly 'do the laundry' for the whole shebang, but I would not be soaking hankies in bowls and treating the rinsing water as anything special. Do you know, I'm very surprised (and gratified) at the amount of interest this thread has provoked. I expected two or three responses at most. I'm so grateful for all the feedback and the interesting comments and advice. I still feel close to God, so I'll trust Him to show me where I stand in the choice of church and how my faith should develop. As Tiny Tim said, "God bless us, every one!"

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 04:37 AM

Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen.
Timothy Winters says, "Amen."

http://web.cs.dal.ca/~johnston/poetry/timothy.html

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 06:56 PM

I found a Victorian book called "The Truth about the Oxford Movement" by a very Protestant CofE cleric which went into this sort of thing with some horror as introducing something inappropriate to the Anglican church, so I expect your church has been influenced since the time of Newman et al into those practices. (There was some complex procedure to be followed if any of the consecrated host fell on the floor whoch reduced the author to apoplexy. He did not hold with transubstantiation, which is what lies behind the care with which the sine is treated.)

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 07:02 PM

Hair raisingly funny Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 09:30 PM

I see that this thread started out as Holy Hanky. I am beginning to think it should be renamed again, this time as Cranky Hanky.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 04:52 AM

In answer to an earlier query, the church linen is soaked in cold salt water to remove winestains.

Cheers
Nigel


100

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:21 AM

Yes, Nigel, and a very good way to remove stains. But it's the rigmarole afterwards with the soaking water poured reverently onto bare earth that makes me cross.
Ah, the Oxford Movement! Very High Church Anglicans, and good luck to them, but I don't subscribe to it. 'Cranky Hanky' is a good way of putting it, ChanteyLass.
Our church collects non-perishable food for the Food Bank at a nearby town. Some of us put tins etc in a big box which is taken there every week. Now instead of getting one's knickers in a twist about a holy hanky, it might be a better idea to concentrate on what are obviously poor folk with no food at all, who need emergency boxes ( a three-days' supply) I do my best, but there is obviously a great need out there for a more practical Christian effort in helping and relieving need. I imagine Jesus would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: BrendanB
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 07:57 AM

Like Joe I spent some years in a seminary. Unlike Joe I have contributed far too little to the church since then. He not only expresses what is good and valuable in Catholicism he also lives it, I am going to have to look very critically at my own practice.
The business of how to wash altar cloths highlights the problem of people placing too much emphasis on the letter of the law and not enough on its spirit. It has been said that any fool can write a law but it takes a wise person to interpret it. I suspect that there are those who shrink from any real intellectual engagement with their faith and focussing on structures makes them feel that they are doing what they should without having to think or question their involvement with the really important aspects of their faith.
I don't mean to sound judgemental, I am often quick to take the easy way out. Let's be grateful for those who really do examine and live their beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 09:51 AM

I think it all boils down to sincerity Brendan. One can be a hypocrite and just pay lipservice and go through the motions. Or one can do things with conviction because one truly subscribes to the practice. I just feel that Jesus and His world are billions of miles away from today's 'Christian' churches. That's why at one point many many years ago I felt I should become a nun and give up absolutely everything to follow Christ. That way I would have embraced true poverty, and followed Him much more closely. Chastity wouldn't have been a problem for me, but I think I'd have stumbled over Obedience, being a 'liberated' woman. I got to know many nuns well, both Anglican and Catholic. To me, Charity is the most necessary thing especially for Western Christians. How we can 'look real poverty in the eye' without feeling horribly guilty and mean, I don't know. I'm doing my best in the field God seems to have plonked me - helping an African family and giving my husband a chance to get on a bit in life. I despise the Holy Hanky Obsession. Far more important to offer a helping hand to those who struggle, both at home and abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: BrendanB
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 10:51 AM

Eliza, I agree entirely with what you say about charity. 'There are faith, hope and charity and the greatest of these is charity'. That should be the focus of what churches do and, to be fair, is the focus of many.
I am not sure however that we can question the sincerity of all those whose focus is structures and processes rather than spirit. While we can readily see what is wrong with their approach, and indeed the harm they can do, we cannot be certain that they are not as sincere in their practice as we are in ours. I don't know if I'm right but when we look back into history we see people whose behaviour appals us but who seemed to act out of belief rather than malice. The iconoclasts during the English reformation and civil war spring to mind. Joe's comments about John Paul II in an earlier post also illustrated this.
Thank you for starting such a thought-provoking (and civilised) thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 04:24 PM

You'd be surprised by the majority of nuns in the United States, Eliza. "Obedience" has an entirely different meaning for them. The have taken Vatican II seriously, and they govern their communities through the principles of collegiality. Decisions are made by consensus - and for modern nuns, obedience means obedience to the consensus and common good of the community. My boss the nun submits an annual budget to the finance director of the province (who is a dear friend or hers), and then they work things out according to what the order can afford. Some nuns work in good-paying jobs, and some in jobs that pay nothing - and they pool their resources for the common good.
Obedience for nuns is no longer the burden that it once was, although there must be some give-and-take in community living. So, my boss has a budget, but it's a very loose one. To my mind, modern nuns are some of the happiest people on the face of the earth. They live with people they love and do the work they choose to do. And they do marvelous things.
Which is why the Vatican is investigating them....

Outside the U.S., the only nuns I've had close contact with, are Sisters of Mercy in Ireland and England. They're very similar in philosophy to the Americans. Strong, independent, wonderful women.

-Joe-

P.S. Oh, and speaking of "holy hankies" - when a priest blows his nose on a purificator, I throw it out. It doesn't happen often, but I HAVE seen it happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 05:37 PM

Very interesting Joe, and food for thought. What a shame that HQ feels the need to 'investigate' modern communities of nuns, when it's obvious they work so well. I got to know nuns from Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary(IBVM, a Catholic order) a Franciscan nun I met in Liverpool with whom I corresponded for many years until her death, and the Community of All Hallows (Anglican) with whom I made many retreats. The IBVMs did a lot of prison work. I always found the sisters practical sensible and not obsessed with ritual or unnecessary details where real Christian work was needed. I would've liked to have been a nursing nun in West Africa, but you can't decide these things, God does that!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:25 PM

What I am trying to figure out is why the upper clergy are dressed in such expensive and frivolous clothing and nuns are usually modest and frankly drab. Oh..sort of like me. Why do we see such male frippery? Are they not uncomfortable dressing up like peacocks? I also can see you want to keep younger nuns as modest as possible, but wouldn't the same frippery also apply at least to older women a bit? On various discussion groups etc. it always comes up the men dressing up in brocade..they always comment on the Prada shoes..why does a man need Prada shoes? Someone has calculated the cost of one of Cardinal Burke's go to outfits.

Something concerns me..I have not heard it mentioned other than in when I was searching for the only sensible pope in my lifetime had to say..John Paul I...he was apparently concerned that many priests were transvestites and were somewhat fetish-like about the vestments..boy, that could explain a lot. I want to find the exact place he said it.
Could this be so? I think you would have to drag most men kicking and screaming into those outfits, but if they were attracted to them..it also could explain why sermons go on so long etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:26 AM

I have a few completely atheist friends, and they all say that in their opinion 'church' people (meaning priests, nuns, clergy, congregation, anyone who goes to church) are all strange/weird in some way. I imagine they include me in in this condemnation. We have many things in common and enjoy our friendship, so their comments don't disturb me. But it seems this view is quite prevalent, that you find many weird, odd, abnormal, bizarre etc folk connected to the church. One friend, Ronda, reckons that weird people are lonely and they find a welcome of sorts in the church. It's one of the few organisations that is (supposedly) accepting and non-judgmental. Looking back over decades, I can't say I've noticed any wonky or weird clergy particularly. But I've always been a bit naive, so maybe my views aren't worth much!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:52 AM

The National Catholic Reporter has an entertaining article on the ecclesiastical finery worn by cardinals and such.

Eliza, my boss, Sister Judy, is a member if the Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary (IBVM) sisters, and I've worked with several other IBVMs. They're good folks. My boss started as a math teacher in a girls' high school. Then she worked for 14 years at a homeless shelter, taking two years off to work with refugees in Rwanda. She has been director of the women's center where I work for six or seven years. She's a wonderful person to work with - she serves as my go-fer when I'm doing maintenance work.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:06 AM

I had a lot of contact with the IBVMs when Prison Visiting. A group of sisters used to go into the prison each week to do cooking with the (male) inmates. They thoroughly enjoyed it and so did the lads. I got to know their 'boss' Sister Patricia and was invited several times to visit them at home. They lived in a semi-detached house (not a convent) called Mary Ward House. They attracted me for their practical Christianity and lack of fussiness. They ran a Catholic Boarding School, St Mary's in Ascot, and several of the sisters had taught there. I was, though, very attracted also to the Franciscans for their poverty and simplicity. Sister Margaret was a pattern of humility and charity, and of course St Francis was very close to the natural world, which I love. The Anglican nuns (there are dozens of Anglican Orders) were actually more ritual-minded. I made several retreats with the All Hallows bunch. I so wanted to be a nurse and a nun, but God seemed to have Africa in mind for me!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 01:49 PM

I agree with Eliza's comment in her first post - it's a bit of cloth, and we don't worship bits of cloth!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 01:56 PM

In the days when I was a server (in an Anglican Church) the most annoying part of the duties was cleaning lipstick stains off the Chalice.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 02:30 PM

My mother complained bitterly about removing lipstick stains from purificators. Back then, laundry detergent was not what it is today, and the only effective bleach was Javel water (Javex).

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 03:45 PM

Could any researchers try to find the place where Pope John Paul I talks about what he called paraphelia I believe. I bookmarked it and can't find it..I don't think it was a direct quote..I think it was in one of the main biographies of him.

He was about to start selling some church finery to fund poor people. He also was made pope wearing fewer doodads than his predecessors. I have held off talking about the vestment fetish, because it is so creepy, but if a pope who was Cardinal of Venice, I believe, talked about it, it must be a possibility. Google Cardinal Burke..somewhere it gives a list of how much some of the vestments he is wearing are...look at some of the pictures. It is creepy.

I have no problem with them getting polyester at $4/yard and making some simple, colorful robes or whatever. It does not have to be silk, gold embroidered, etc. And I think there is some link between the over the top dressing and thinking you are close enough to God therefore to break some of the most universal taboos if not commandments. And just recently there was the cross-dressing priest, which is fine with me if they all do..but he also sold meth...which is not fine..another in bondage..there is something going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 03:56 PM

Google cardinal burke vestments

or here are some nice ones to see

http://thewoundedbird.blogspot.com/search/label/Cardinal%20Raymond%20Burke

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:18 PM

I think it's kind of fitting that Cardinal Burke wears such finery. To my mind, he's one of the most contemptible clerics the American Catholic Church has produced, worse even than Bernie Law. The adage says that clothes make the man, so it seems fitting that ridiculous people should wear ridiculous clothes.

These guys far out-dress the pope, I think.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 06:47 PM

that is not bad..dignified, looks normal to me.

And the one we have to watch is in New York and apparently thought he had a good chance for pope..I think he could not swing it now because there would be such an outcry about not only his financial dishonesty but his being on Donahue's coattails in terms of further abusing victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: JennieG
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:28 AM

Speaking as one who has an interest in textiles and who is not of the Roman Catholic persuasion, where does all that beautiful lace come from? Is it hand-spun by nuns working their fingers to the bone somewhere in a dark convent, or there a factory somewhere churning it out by the yard?

The Presbyterian church in which I was raised (and from which I have since collapsed) was quite austere by comparison, although there was a lace edging - not a wide one - on the otherwise plain white altar cloth.

Eliza, thank you for starting this thread - it's been very thought-provoking, and interesting.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:31 AM

Yeah, I thought the Pope looked pretty normal, just a white cassock with little ornamentation - traditional without being garish. I kinda like Benedict XVI. He's conservative, but appears to be open to discussion.

John Paul I was Pope for just a month in 1978. He was found dead sitting up in his bed shortly before dawn on 29 September 1978. He reportedly had a heart attack, but there are many conspiracy theories that suspect that he was murdered. He had been expected to be a liberal Pope, perhaps even more progressive than John XXIII. Instead, we went back into the Middle Ages with John Paul II.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: mg
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 01:08 AM

I don't know if he was murdered..odd that his best friend died of a hit and run the next day...all sorts of other cardinals died around the same time. I think there were a couple of deaths from gargoyles or something falloing on people in separate places. How coincidentanl. One thing is very wierd..he apparently was found by a nun who was bringing saym coffee. THey could not say a female had found. Magee..the same Magee I believe mentionede in the Coyne Report of Ireland.
.was said to have found him. This connection is very odd. Read and read all you can a bout the pope, what he had to say..it is hard to separate fact from fiction..I can't..just everyone sort it out for themselves...he was an awesome man...they say in poor health..doctors did not agree. he was a champion moun tain climber. Worked to get orp0hans adopted, including by homosexuals. In his poor alpine hometown, apparentlyh a cart went around every morning to pick up orpnha s who had frozen to death..and they locked church doors to keep orphans out..as a child, according to what I read, he didn't go to mass one day, went home and cooked chicken soup for the orphans...lots of interesting tidb its. He was taking on the vatican mafia...said to have had a brilliant mind for finances and could spot irregularities..gee..think there could be some?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:44 AM

I must say, I rather like the idea of the old Celtic Christianity prevalent in Wales and other far regions of our Isles. A single 'saint' would live the life of a hermit in total simplicity and humility, and have several adherents who came to worship at his tiny 'church'. This was a very early form of Christianity, and to my mind, closer to the teachings of Jesus. There were absolutely no robes, finery, golden bits and bobs, simply because nobody had anything like that, nor wanted them. It seems to me a sincere, gentle and pure form of faith, but was swept away by the Roman forms of Christianity. I must say, if all the 'priceless' artefacts in RC and C of E possession were to be sold, imagine the good that could be done with the dosh! Norwich Anglican Cathedral, for example, has many golden chalices and other 'precious' things displayed in a secure stronghold behind reinforced glass. I cannot bear to look at them. Often, outside their massive West Door, an old derelict woman with carrier bags used to sit. We bought her a coffee and something to eat, but I was very, very bitter. What sort of church has cases of golden chalices while a poor old thing sits outside in the cold, friendless and destitute? Answers on a postcard please...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:52 AM

As a lapsed Methodist, non-attending Quaker,married to a CofE Licenced Lay Minister, I find all High Church rituals a nonsense, but if it floats your boat...
However, the original problem could have been solved it there were clear operating procedures. I know in my wife's church when there was a gap between fulltime sacristans, those helping out had a clear checklist of things to do and how to do them. If Eliza's church hasn't, or if Eliza wasn't given them, it wasn't her fault and the vicar should have had more Christian charity- it was no way to encourage helpers from the congregation.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:39 AM

There are Anglican nuns, too, and they are pretty cool as a rule. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 04:31 PM

All this (very eminent) discussion prompts the question -



WWJD?


or

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?


He might just wink at us from His stained glass window!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:19 PM

I reckon He'd not be best pleased that what He aimed to teach us has gone so badly wrong. He certainly wouldn't be in favour of Holy Hankies. And great wealth, rich robes and golden objects would not meet with His approval either. Far from winking, I think he'd be waving His fist at us all!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:18 AM

I dunno about golden objects and beautiful buildings and vestments. Part of me says it's a waste of money. Another part of me likes the pageantry and the ecclesiastical bling. Yeah, I suppose all that stuff could be sold to rich people so they could lock it away, but the pageantry is open for everyone to see. Even poor church members can see that stuff and say, "That's MINE!" That was certainly the case with immigrant churches in the U.S., especially the Polish Cathedrals - people built them as a form of community pride and self-expression.
I dare you to tell poor Catholics that they have to sell St. Peter's Basilica and the Vatican Museum.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:48 AM

He certainly wouldn't be in favour of Holy Hankies.
Maybe not.
But remember his reaction at finding those buying & selling blood-sacrifices, and charging for changing money into a form 'acceptable' in the Temple. (Matt 21, Mark 11 & Luke 19).

"What would Jesus do?" seems a pointless question. I don't think I could answer it. Even 'Papal Infallability' only covers certain matters.
Anyone who believes they know what Jesus would do in any given situation should either be a World leader, - or they're fooling themselves!