BS: A New Idea in Ireland

Subject: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 12:56 PM

Ireland in uproar over call for 'drink-driving permits' to combat depression

By Ian Johnston, Staff Writer, NBC News

Permits allowing people to drink alcohol then drive should be issued to make it easier for those in isolated, rural areas to visit the pub, according to a motion passed by a local government in Ireland.

Kerry County Council, which governs an area with a population of more than 120,000, is to formally ask the Irish government to allow some drivers to have the equivalent of up to three pints of beer.

The motion -- passed by five votes to three with seven abstentions –-- said this would "greatly benefit people living alone looking at four walls and restore some bit of social activity in local pubs and may also help prevent depression and suicide."

...

[more at the link]

The complete article presents a rationale that might make this proposal more reasonable than it appears at first sight. There are some obvious difficulties in the application, of course.

Serious comment from the two or three who might actually check the link would be welcome, of course, and there's probably more info nearer the locale. Comment from affected places would be interesting.

John

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 01:10 PM

John, I'd look for more in the article (I read the whole thing) had the idea NOT been proposed by a pub owner who also is a councilor. I'd hope someone will counter-propose that isolated people be driven to the pub to socialize and discuss the price of cattle, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 01:37 PM

Geez, you'd think he'd at least be a little less blatant.

We had a very bad drunk-driving problem on military bases in Germany back in the day, so base commanders ran a small shuttle bus for mess patrons. We called it the Drunk Bus, of course, and it kept the inebriated out of the clutches of the military police at a fair old rate.

The Kerry publican would be roundly praised as the benefactor of the townland if he only took the trouble. He would have to find an abstaining driver, mind you.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 01:45 PM

Geez, you'd think he'd at least be a little less blatant.

You probably need to read up on the Healy-Raes.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 02:26 PM

It POSSIBLY "workable" with certain caveats until one attempts to consdider how to enforce the limit. The enforcement is clearly not doable. Nice try but it's a non-starter. Even after a few pints, it would sound a silly idea.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 02:30 PM

Nothing like perpetuating your own stereotype............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 04:50 PM

Four out of five of the councillors who voted in favour of this are pub owners.

The ida of a minibus has been floated in Ireland too.

@catspaw49, we've inherited the English stereotype - the English were the drunks of Europe for centuries, with the Germans also having their period of ownership of that particular stereotype.

Talking of stereotypes, why the strange silence about the English prince's boasts of killing a "Taliban commander" - I've been waiting to see the discussion on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: CET
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 05:51 PM

Three pints! Over what period? Even over 3 hours, you shouldn't be driving.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 06:17 PM

I'd say the publican's should provide cheap transport for patrons as a public service and charge a three drink minimum to allay/mimimize costs. Then even the poor wretches that don't drink could sell their pints at the pub at cost to those who do drink and get a night out for cheap and EVERYONE would benefit.

Then again, I am sure someone will find fault with that suggestion. Though, at this point, I don't see how.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: framus
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 06:54 PM

It's enough to drive you to drink!!

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 01:18 AM

The three-pints minimum won't fly; mandating an unhealthy amount of alcohol - way over the recommended daily limit - would lay them open to prosecution.
Diageo could fund minivans, though, and the publicans could have two minivan runs a night, at, say, 10pm and midnight.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:10 AM

People who are, in principle, in favour of allowing drinking and driving because they either sell or imbibe lots of alcohol, would nonetheless be absolutely devastated if one of their family were to be maimed or killed due to a drunk driver's misjudgment. Personally I don't think any alcohol consumption at all should be permitted for a driver. Minibuses are a super idea though.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Fergie
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 05:44 AM

The Healy-Raes are gombeen local politicians of the very lowest denomination. This "campaign" is just a cynical publicity stunt to get those shysters more vote so they can continue to milk the cash-cow known as the Irish taxpayers.

Fergus

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:01 AM

THE GOMBEEN MAN by Joseph Campbell

Behind a web of bottles, bales,
Tobacco, sugar, coffin nails
The gombeen like a spider sits,
Surfeited; and, for all his wits,
As meagre as the tally-board
On which his usuries are scored.
The mountain people come and go
For wool to weave or seed to sow,
White flour to bake a wedding cake,
Red spirits for a stranger's wake.
No man can call his soul his own
Who has the Devil's spoon on loan.
And so behind his web of bales,
Horse halters, barrels, pucan sails
The gombeen like a spider sits,
Surfeited; and for all his wits,
As poor as one who never knew
The treasure of the early dew.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:07 AM

This is a real issue.
Country pubs are now an endangered species in UK, and Ireland will see the same thing happen.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:58 AM

I agree Keith.

I wish they would be different though. Cleaner, a better choice of non alcoholic drinks, better heated, more stylish - so that you felt you were going somewhere nice and comfortable.

Theres something very samey about interior pub design . Realistically when I pay two pounds plus for a pint of draught coke - they aren't paying alcohol tax on that - they could be offering better drinks and making more profit. And it would be nice if that were reflected in the room in which you find yourself.

Look around your pub - a lot of us probably fifty percent (the drivers) are not drinking alcohol. time to give us some value for money.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 07:16 AM

I know, but they have to do what they can.
Beer is the loss leader and soft drinks are truly a rip off to subsidise it.

I know they are not found outside towns, but Wetherspoons somehow do manage to give good value.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 08:33 AM

I drive to sessions twice a week & drink 1pt shandy, a non-alc ginger beer or a pt of lime & soda.

I still can enjoy a great time out, playing music & enjoying the craic & banter with friends.

It's not absolutely necessary to have alcohol to enjoy time at a pub

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 09:18 AM

I don't know what the pub trade is like in Ireland, but a substantial part of it in my neck of the woods (the UK South-East) is in deep shite because of so-called pub companies like Enterprise Inns and Punch Taverns. These are the rapacious middlemen who came into being when the breweries' pub ownership monopoly was broken many years ago.

They introduced a 3rd profit-making layer into the pub trade so that, instead of a tenant buying his beer direct from the brewery, they now have to buy it from the pub company, who buys it from the brewery. As it happens, I was talking about the trade to my neighbours (who have been in it) just this morning. Two years ago, a barrel of Guinness would have cost a tenant around £85 to buy and make a reasonable profit from. The price through Enterprise? £150.

So the poor devils have to do food to make a living, for they won't make it by clearing around 20p a pint. Guess what? Enterprise are now selling "super leases" - where the tenant has to agree to also buy his foodstuffs through the same pub company. We have Enterprise-owned pubs closing all the time down here. They don't care. They'll get another sucker in to sign a lease and, if the pub closes, they don't care - they're basically a property company when all's said and done.

Typical enterprise lease in this area: £95,000 per annum. As our friends in the US say: do the math.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 11:30 AM

We don't have that conacre form of publican in Ireland, as far as I know, though there was a recent row when a publican was prevented from picketing some particular brewery that wouldn't supply him.

If I had my druthers, we'd have pubs on the model of France, where people go out to eat as well as drink. But Irish farmers of the old school regard dinner as something you eat at home, though God knows there have been changes since the old days.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 12:07 PM

As a youth I always had supper at home. We had dinner at someone else's place.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 11:53 PM

I had a cousin with a similar philosophy. He died rich but he died indeed! His wealth was distributed among his relatives. What goes around comes around!

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 04:28 AM

Great piece by Shane Hegarty in the Irish Times:


Dear Rest of the World,

We hope this finds you well. The weather here has been quite cold this week, and one of our Senators said he wouldn't get into a taxi driven by any single one of you, but otherwise we're keeping well.

Anyway, to the awkward matter at hand. We were hoping you could do Ireland a favour. Don't worry, we're not asking for more cash! We promised to pay you back for the, you know, economic "situation", and we've got the payslips to back that up, so don't you worry.

No, this correspondence arises out of the global news story arising from some Irish councillors' views on drink-driving. If you wouldn't mind, we'd like to address some inaccuracies in recent headlines.

"Irish council paves way for drinking and driving" (the Daily Telegraph). No it doesn't.

"Lawmakers in Ireland Vote to Allow 'Moderate' Drunk-Driving" (Gawker). No they didn't.

"Ireland may allow 'moderately' drunk driving" (Salon). No it won't.

" 'Drunk Driving' Permits Approved By Irish County Might Let Rural Drivers Imbibe, Drive." (Huffington Post). Imbibe? Look who's been logging on to thesaurus.com.

"Irish County Legalizes Drunk Driving" (ABC News). Seriously, it's a nation's reputation you're toying with. You could have just called one of us at random to check it out. We can still afford phones.

You know who you are

And on it went, World. You know who you are. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, probably lots of other non-English-speaking countries whose results my version of Google News didn't bother to give me.

Then, a full 24 hours after the story broke, leaving facts to eat dust, the BBC's Breakfast television programme got in on the act. Its presenter introduced the item by saying: "People who live in isolated rural areas of Ireland could be given the freedom to go to the pub, have a few drinks and then drive home without running the risk of being arrested." (No. They. Couldn't.)

The councillor who proposed the motion, Danny Healy-Rae, was interviewed live. The first thing he did was to say hello to the television show's "listeners". At this point, the Irish public collectively banged their heads off the breakfast table in resignation. You might have noticed. It caused a minor tidal wave in the Irish Sea.

In your defence, World, you will not have been aware of the Healy-Raes before. You will not appreciate that they are like Russian dolls: every time you think you've reached the last one, another, more minor version pops out.

There are four of them in public life, including the paterfamilias, Jackie. Danny's son Johnny was one of the five who voted in favour of the idea. The family specialises in showboating and twists of logic that are quite elegant in their own way.

Only last year, Danny's brother Michael (a member of parliament here) made the ludicrous suggestion that 2013 number plates should avoid using the number 13 for superstitious reasons. Actually, that one was adopted, so bad example. But you get the point.

Even though the drink-driving story received an embarrassing level of coverage in Ireland too, we understand the rules of the game. We know the story is representative of a world view so narrow it can be seen only through the beer taps on a pub counter.

We also know that the councillors' motion has no power whatsoever. Honestly, if five toddlers were to have made the suggestion in finger paint, it would have had almost as much weight.

You could not know any of this, World. Still, the story came in a week in which a viral video of a "funny Irish news report" was also doing the rounds. This hilariously detailed "report" on a fight was actually from a TV comedy show, Irish Pictorial Weekly, and its excellence came from being so close to the real thing that even Irish people were passing it around Facebook as genuine.

But what is worrying is that both relate to particular stereotypes – drinking and fighting – that Ireland is uncomfortable with. We understand. We ourselves are not strangers to the lure of a good stereotype.

But we ask this: the next time you see an Irish stereotype pop up on, say, Google News, ignore it. Move on. Or at least question it, take it with a pinch of salt. After all, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, you may want to consider the possibility that it is not, in fact, a duck.

As some of you will be aware (hello, Denmark), it could be a beautiful swan. Or we'll accept being one of the less-annoying breeds of seagull.

Anyway, apologies for the intrusion. Everyone here says hello and hopes you have a great 2013. Just keep sending those cheques.

Only joking! (A wire transfer will suffice.)

Kind regards, Ireland.

@shanehegarty

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Charmion
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 09:27 AM

What a lovely bit of editorial journalism -- a master at work. Thanks for posting this, JTT.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 09:42 AM

I love Ireland but don't get into an auto accident there.

I was depressed to see a woman begging on the streets of Dublin and guessing
where her husband was.

That said, Ireland is one of the friendliest, and most courteous countries in the world (in my opinion).

On holiday? Go to Erieann.

(Yes, thank you, I am all right. I'm in Ireland.)

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 11:17 AM

I agree with Mr Happy. I live in a rural environment, with no bus route. People would get lonely and depressed. But where does alcohol come into it? We have a Village Hall in nearly every village here in Norfolk, and many of them are in use every day and night of the week. There are bingo, tea-dances, quizzes, mother-and-toddler groups, Keep Fit, film nights, talks (loads of these in our village, very interesting too) WI, Women's Friendly Hour, Computer Lessons, and so on and so on.
And in not one of these is any alcohol available. We make the tea and coffee and small cakes, there are crisps and choccy bars. Folk come from other villages in their cars and go home safely and alcohol-free. Boozing just isn't necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 08:23 AM

OK, 2 thoughts from the Southern US:

It's nice that one woman begging in Dublin is worthy of note. Where I live, they are regulated: permitted and safety-vested. Don't get me started.

Of course, a minibus. Bars here, the kind that expect and encourage big groups of rowdy drinkers, have their own, painted all fancy and ready for action. Brilliant!

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 12:51 PM

I am always amazed that people have enough money to get drunk in a bar but seldom enough money to take a taxi home.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 02:41 AM

GUEST,999, taxi fares may be lower in your jurisdiction.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 03:37 AM

Could be. But if taxi fares are too steep it would be best then to get a designated driver. I helped clean too many drunks off the road and often innocent people were involved. I have no sympathy for drunks who get behind the wheel.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 07:29 AM

I live in rural ireland, i think HEALY RAES point of view is worth considering,there isa degree of truth in what he says, but what i think is a better suggestion is to re introduce the old limit for rural areas in ireland, and keep it as it is in cities.
it is not just excess alcohol that kills it is also excess driving speed.
i have witnessed this a fair bit, one example was a woman who was absolutely sober, who hit my house, because of her driving speed.
there is also degrees of difference between someone who is drunk and completely incapable, and someone who has had two pints over two hours, or three pints over three hours,or one pint over the whole evening, depending of course how strong the beer is.
an average pint of beer 4 per cent on an average person generally takes an hour to work out of the system,
i would suggest if anyone has been drinking alcoholic beer, for example, two pints over 2 hours, that they then have a drink of water and leave it half an hour before they get in to their car.
    erdinger now produce a non alcoholic beer, which tastes pleasant, and this is what i have been doing just lately.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 01:08 PM

It all boils down to what the breathaliser test shows. If one is over the limit, even by a bit, then one's reactions are slower and one's judgment impaired. This could cause death or maiming. Even in rural areas there are other motorists out on the roads. I'm sure you wouldn't want to be badly hurt or killed by someone whose driving was affected? That's why the law exists. Either one decides to obey The Law in its entirety (perhaps not agreeing with it all) or one doesn't and gets nicked! It isn't moral to pick and choose, that's anarchy.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 01:39 PM

Some would call it an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 06:03 PM

yes eliza, correct, but the faster a person drives the greater distance needed for braking without a collision.
I feel my life is endangered more by some of the extremely bad sober drivers who drive ridiculously fast on narrow country roads, and often tailgate, than by an elderly farmer who maybe marginally over the limit driving at a relatively slow speed.
I have lived in rural ireland for 23 years, and have some considerable experience of maniac sober drivers and elderly marginally inebriated farmers driving relatively slowly.
Eliza,Ireland is not England. anarchy is the complete breakdown of law and order, the reality is that most people in ireland, deal with the law in their own way, but society still goes on, I think it is a great country, it is certainly not anarchy, try sicily for that

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 10:01 AM

I didn't intend for you to interpret my post as inferring Ireland is anarchic. My mother was Irish, from Cork, so I know the country (albeit from many many years ago!) I meant that to begin picking and choosing which laws to obey one is thinking anarchically. And bad yet sober drivers can be apprehended using the law too. Their offences are open to Police action as well.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 02:44 AM

The idea of Irish people as charming rogues who make their way around laws dates from a time when this was the only sane way of dealing with laws designed to suppress Irish people in their own country; the attitude may have continued for some years into the new nation, but it's non-existent now - at least to the same extent as in other countries.
In every country you'll find civil resistance to certain hated laws and taxes, and a quiet refusal to obey them. That's all there is in Ireland too. Look at the way the Troika have been trampling over our rights, and the passivity in response. They're even trying to sell off the right to lay low our few woodlands for the profit of the banks who robbed us.
As for driving drunk, in rural areas or urban areas, it should not be tolerated. Other countries - Norway, France, England - have vast open areas filled with people living on their own, and nobody's asking for them to have the right to drive home drunk from the pub.
Pubs should have minibuses, and pubs should serve food at night.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 06:38 AM

Norway has zero tolerance and a zero blood level for drunk driving. They also have an 80-kph speed limit on most highways, enforced in a very no-kidding fashion with the aid of radar cameras. One has the sense that the grown-ups are very much in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 08:56 AM

Written a few days back by my dear friend, Gloria, over in New Jersey. Her only child, Peter, was killed by a drunk driver when he was just 22 years old. He was smashed through a brick wall. Several other young people with him suffered brain damage. The young man who killed her son lives just a few streets away. He served only a few years in prison and is now back with his family. He has never apologized nor made any contact with Gloria and Charlie.



'10 years ago today'

"10 years ago today the sun fell from the sky. The stars dripped down into tears and the moon turned blue. The light of our lives, our darling Peter was taken from us and we have been waiting ever since for it to come back.

Throughout the last 10 years we have heard his sneakers crunch in the snow, watched him walk in the spring rain, seen his smile in the warmth of the summer and heard his breath as the days grew shorter in the fall but nothing, absolutely nothing, helped.

We wait, and we wait, for the pain to end, the smile to return, the life to come back to our lives all the while knowing we are waiting for things that will never happen, but we do it anyway. It's all we can do, have to do.

For everyone else the world has moved on, as it should, their lives have changed, which they should, and the memories became beautiful thoughts for them, as it should be, but for us, the world stopped, the memories became stained with heartache, and we died along with our son.

We are now are the "new" people we have become, sometimes almost unrecognizable. Along with losing Peter we lost our futures. Never seeing Peter become the amazing man he would have been, never seeing him meet that special someone, a wedding, grandchildren and one day either Charlie or I will have to face this world completely alone.

We are the collateral damage of what happened to our son.

We know out there somewhere is someone who was supposed to say they were sorry a long time ago. It may have held some importance to us then, but never now.

So, we go back to waiting, it's what we do best.

We will continue to look for Peter everywhere every chance we get. We will pray and cry in private and we will continue to live for and love our Peter more than ever. Peter was, is and always will be our lives. Peter was, is and always will be our hope. Peter was, is and always will be our son. Peter was, is and always will be our love. Peter was, is and always will be.

Petey, we will love you as long as there is time. We wish that God would have asked for one of us to take your place which we would have done in a heartbeat so you could stay here and bless the earth with your smile, your love and your grace.

We will hold you the only way we can until our arms can no longer move. As long as we have one breath left, we will speak your name, and we will always be mommy, daddy and Petey.

We will love you forever.

REMEMBER LOVE

REMEMBER PETE"

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 10:58 AM

an average pint of beer 4 per cent on an average person generally takes an hour to work out of the system,

Are you sure that is right, GSS? I've read that it takes an hour to get rid of one unit of alcohol. One unit is equivalent to ½ pint of average strength beer.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: A New Idea in Ireland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 12:35 PM

Lizzie, your poor poor friend Gloria, how very terrible for her and her family. And it's a life sentence, the grief goes on and on. The one who caused this lives with his family once more and for him, life continues regardless. This only underlines what I and others said in posts above. Drunk driving kills and/or maims. There's no excuse for it, no mitigation and no exception.