BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:18 AM

Megan L asks for decorum and not having a go at Liz and her tilted orbit raves.

Why?

If we are debating security in school and she starts saying society should conform to ensuring her take on life, citing ridiculous and if taken seriously dangerous notions to achieve them, everybody should respect her opinion and therefore encourage the bugger?

I would have thought that was the least charitable thing she needs. Whilstever people humour her, she may never know how tedious she is, not because she says something you may or may not agree with, but because she hijacks threads to spew out illogical waffle and occasionally deeply offensive comments.

If she posts she is accepting that her comments may receive challenge, and yes, ridicule.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:51 AM

The kindest teacher I ever met was AFTER my children had left school and were being Home Educated. Mr. Strawbridge was our Educational Welfare Officer. By law we didn't actually have to let him into our home, nor even let him meet our children, but we welcomed him and he became our friend.

He made my children feel like a million dollars. I've written about him before, but he's worth mentioning again. He lavished praise on them, gave my daughter his entire collection of old National Geographic magazines, because he knew she'd love them (and she did, indeed still has them at the age of 26)

He told us terribly sad stories of other children who'd been kicked out of the education system....and because they'd been expelled, he was legally bound to give them 25 hours a week of free education. He did this job because he cared desperately about those who'd been so damaged by a system he knew was terribly wrong.

He had been a teacher, as had his wife. Their careers were cut short when she was in a terrible car accident, which left her paralysed from the waist down.

We went to tea with them both one day, as he wanted us to meet her. He'd spent over 20 years caring for her by that time..They told us of their grandchildren, who were still only very young, 6 and younger, but already their parents were paranoid about them doing homework, studying, moving home to get them into better schools etc...

They could see the stress being piled on their grandchildren and the stress of their children too, who were so deeply anxious, even then, that if their children didn't do perfectly at school, they'd never succeed in life...

Mr. Sawbridge told us how nearly all the good teachers had left now, like rats leaving a sinking ship, and that the entire system was imploding from within..He was very down about it, very angry too..and very upset over children like mine who'd suffered so deeply because of the Insanity now within the UK education system, where the presssure on teachers is passed down to the children, who are seen merely as stumbling blocks to so many teachers keeping their jobs these days...for if those teachers do NOT get The Results, then their jobs are severely at risk.

Lessons are almost 'controlled' on a daily basis by The National Curriculum...indeed, New Labour's aim, when in power, was for all schools to teach the same lessons on the same days, countrywide...I only knew about this because of the wonderful 'Education Otherwise' informing parents of everything that was happening in the education system. They kept, and still do keep, an incredibly close eye on what's going on.....

It is A System Out Of Control, where children are forced to study things they have no interest in, forced to do homework, on TOP of a whole day of being at school, forced to take examinations, forced to study endlessly for those examinations and then forced to view themselves, and each other, as a Human Success or a Human Failure PURELY on the grades given to them by those who mark examination papers.

The pain and damage done to so many unbelievably creative children is mind-blowing! They are so often those who are sitting on the streets selling The Big Issue, if they are lucky, or injecting heroin, if they are not....

They are often The Poets, The Songwriters, The Musicians, The Dancers, The Acrobats, The Artists, The Healers, The Storytellers...

Academically they may fail in The System, for they are NOT allowed to BE WHO THEY ARE. Some will find their way through and go on to become Academic in their own way, in their own time, later in life, where they are no longer judged, where their talent has already been able to develop....

But the pain of being called Stupid, Slow, Lazy, Troublemakers, stays with many their whole lives long...

And the very people who have made them FEEL this way are those that society deems to be TEACHERS!

The GOOD, NATURAL Teachers teach a child how to live, how to love, how to have faith in themselves, to see the GOOD in them, the TALENT in them, the BEAUTY of them!

The BAD UNNATURAL Teachers still teach, but *they* teach children to have NO confidence in themselves, to see themselves as stupid, thick, ignorant and a total failure. They also teach others to laugh at them, when they publicly humiliate them in class, thus fostering the belief that 'stupid people deserve ridicule'...

My children had WAY TOO MANY Bad Teachers. My daughter is still, to this day, aged 26, affected by her art teacher who told her that her work was 'crap'. The teacher loved Picasso, my daughter loved The Great Masters. She is a Natural Artist, but she rarely paints now...and even the wondrous paintings she HAS done remain hidden away from the eyes of others, even though, when some HAVE seen her work they gasp in disbelief. She will NEVER believe she can paint, even though it is her very Soul....

She is a deeply intelligent human being, a deeply sensitive one too, as is my gentle son. School is there to DE-SENSITISE children, so it seems to me, not to Nurture them...and that, in my book of life,is very sick and very, very worrying....

But hey, what do I know, eh...for 'Teacher Knows Best'!

Yeah, right...

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,A Regular
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:56 AM

1) An initial purpose of education (at least in Canada) was to instill a certain obedience in the general population. Check out the writings of Egerton Ryerson who became superintendent of schools in Upper Canada (Ontario)--so named because it is geographically higher or more elevated than Lower Canada (Quebec). In time the savage beast doth bear the yoke. However, his innovations were important in terms of present-day schools for a few reasons, not all good by today's standards.

"His study of educational systems elsewhere in the Western world led to three School Acts, which would revolutionize education in Canada. His major innovations included libraries in every school, an educational journal and professional development conventions for teachers, a central textbook press using Canadian authors, and securing land grants for universities.

Ryerson's legacy within Canada's education system also included the hand he played in the implementation of the controversial Canadian residential school system. It was his study of Native education commissioned in 1847 by the Assistant Superintendent General of Indian Affairs that would become the model upon which Residential Schools were built." (from Wikipedia--it's accurate, imo)

2) Education got sucked in to the 'business model' of education. It was a failure in New Zealand, England and the US but by golly Canada had to try it, too. And we did. It is still failing as is the 'no child left behind' policy in many US states. Education is not business in any sense of the terms.

3) Home schooling is a good option for some people but not for all people. It fails often because parents are not able to provide the necessary instruction to the child and things like mastery learning provide only short-term gains for most children. The remark earlier about fundamentalists is accurate. School districts along with some home schoolers often abrogate their legal responsibilities in regard to home-schooled children and failure becomes an easy option for the child. One or two visits a year from school district representatives just doesn't ensure that education is taking place in the home. I hazard that if you actually looked into the state of home schooling in most developed countries you'd see quickly that it is a poor option for too many kids and families.

4) In general, education propagates its methods and teaching techniques. WTF does THAT mean? Teachers tend to learn through chalk/talk techniques, so when they go forth to teach how do they do it? Right, chalk/talk. Despite knowing through the literature (Bloom, Krathwhol, Gardner) that effective teaching/learning takes place via a variety of techniques, the successful stuff is not generally accepted by education institutions because they do not have the ability to fund those techniques and allow them to become standard teaching practice in schools. Good teachers do it but at much cost to themselves and their own lives.

As for Death Trap Schoolrooms--that is an interesting title. Three scenarios come to mind although I'll mention just two that have been addressed already because I see no point giving bad ideas to bad people:

a) Fire
b) Person or persons with weapons

No building is by itself a firetrap until such time as it is actually on fire. (I know that sounds nuts, but it is the way the law in most places reads.) No classroom is a death trap until something begins to cause death, be that fire or people with weapons of some sort. I have been in a number of schools in various places and as a general rule it would take a medium-sized platoon per floor to secure most school buildings, and that doesn't address snipers who could be hundreds of yards away and harm children/staff with little immediate danger to themselves. Face facts: if arms are the problem to begin with, what makes you think they can also be the solution? I think it is both foolish and stupid to engage in talk with the NRA or organizations of that nature. They lie about their membership and rely on the adage "if you can't beat them with brains then baffle them with bullshit" and guess what folks? It's working.

Anyway, that's it from me for the mo. Have a good day.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Bert
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 07:17 AM

...school is what YOU make of it...

Not the schools I went to Don. They were places where you sat down and did as you were told and were bored all day and every day because the teachers were incompetent. I went to many different schools in England and Wales and out of dozens of teachers only two were any good.

When I did well in a subject like math I was made to repeat boring stuff over and over and not once in any school did any teacher say, 'You're good at this, go on to the next book' so throughout my school life I spent math lessons grinding along at the pace of the slowest in class.

When I did poorly in a subject, like sports. Not once did any teacher say 'If you practice you will get better'.

Teachers in further education are much better, because students can vote with their feet. A poor teacher won't get any students. Also they treat their students with respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:18 AM

Sounds like British schools are even worse than ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:33 AM

School is a damn sight safer than home if you want to protect kids from being murdered.

Mothers who kill their kids

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:39 AM

More on child-killing mothers

Note that the age at which mothers are most likely to kill their children is when the mother has sole responsibility for them. Home schooling will extend that period by years.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:44 AM

OK I can see this is another hijacked thread. Does anyone want to get back to a discussion of how to make school buildings safer? The quality of the education received there should really be another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

So Liz, you ever consider that the problem was you & not the school?

Abundant evidence, supplied by yourself, seems to point fairly conclusively in that direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 09:13 AM

Ebbie--I didn't say teachers weren't "caring, fun, creative, talented people" at all. Either young or old--I was pointing out that the combination of "No Child Left Behind" and high-stakes testing has changed our educational system so much that many of the older "good" teachers have chosen to leave it.

I very seldom say anything against teachers. As a former teacher who worked outside of the profession for an number of years, I've rarely run across people who work as hard as teachers, and that includes the teachers that people didn't like very much...

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 09:31 AM

"Note that the age at which mothers are most likely to kill their children is when the mother has sole responsibility for them. Home schooling will extend that period by years."


Oh, for fuck's sake, Jack. I've never heard *anything* so ridiculous in my life!

If a woman is deeply depressed, or a man, they will do what they will do regardless of whether their children are at school or not!

MOTHERS are the ones who give birth (!) and only a *miniscule* percentage of women would even *consider* killing them, let alone going through with it!

IF a woman is THAT depressed in the first place, she would be just as likely to do that when they come home from school, so, please, don't give me that anti-home-schooling claptrap!

I've heard all the stories from the Anti-Home-Schoolers and most of it is recycled garbage they've picked up from folks like you.

I KNOW women (and their husbands) who home-school/schooled their children and they were all EXCELLENT at what they did and have lovely kids! My children too would blow your mind away with their knowledge, their LOVE of learning, their kindness to others and their gentleness....

My son is now at college, HIS choice, doing A Levels. The tutors from his previous year used to tell me they wished they could clone him, for he was not only very well behaved, polite and eager to learn, but he was also incredibly kind and generous to the other lads in his group, many of whom were totally off the rails, according to the tutors. They actually described some of the classes they took as 'crowd control' rather than teaching. And they said that if ALL their students had been like Josh their job would be a joy...

So please, do NOT make out that Home-Schooling is crap because it's not! My son is the way he is because he has been ALLOWED to grow up BEING ***WHO HE IS***.

There will be some bad folks amongst home-schooling, there are also some FOUL people who are teachers.

BOTH do much damage to innocent children...

To make out that Mothers who DARE to raise their own children are going to end up killing them is ludicrous and DEEPLY insulting.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 10:57 AM

Lizzie, the thread is about physicl safety of school buildings. I have no wish to prevent you from expounding your interesting philosophy regarding education, but perhaps you would be kind enough to start a separate thread on that subject, so that this thread can get back to its topic?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 11:08 AM

Agreed Backwoodsman.

Now for me - going forward - it's sad to say that schools in the future will need to be built with secure fences surrounding them. Extra doors in each classroom that be opened from the inside only. With some sort of overide key that will be in the possession of fire departments and the police so they can open them from the outside.

A minimum of entry points with metal detectors at each point. Trained personnel at each entry - perhaps the National Guard? Weapons nearby - but not in plain view. Security cameras at a distance so that security guards can see who is approaching the school.

Basically - schools that are hard to get into and easy to get out of.

Drastic? Yes. And expensive. But better than a school full of dead kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 11:13 AM

One more thing - the steps I've outlined might - gasp - mean an increase in property taxes. Too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 11:43 AM

Any building be it a school, factory, doctors surgery or council office, indeed any building at all has safety/security issues.

The trouble for architects, project managers and clients is balancing all the issues involved in the construction and use of the building. I am sure there are folk around here who have a greater technical input than I can, but here are some I can think of.

1. Cost anyone commissioning a building will have spending restrictions whether commercial, municipal or a private householder.
2. Fire safety where do you call a halt? Every room with access to a safe external area, what about rooms on floors above ground level? Fire alarm systems, co2 alarm system just in case people die of carbon monoxide. Or do you add sprinklers and or smoke corridors (Last system I saw used sprinkler curtain system to create a smoke free corridor to allow quick safe egress from a shopping centre). Perhaps adding fire safe lift shafts with pressurised air systems to stop smoke and flames funnelling up the shaft like a giant chimney increasing the speed of spread throughout the building. Or fire safe rooms where people can wait in a smoke free environment for rescue. And we have not even started on monitoring and direction systems.
3. Security, there are so many variables my mind is whirling like a kite in a tornado. Do you have one entry/exit point that can be manned continuously? Of course no matter how continuously manned it is there will always be a chance that someone needs to go to the toilet or is distracted for a second. Or have many points of entry/exit so people can escape any possible threat of course with more doors to the outside comes greater possibility of one bein breached (Just ask Springburn bairns who used to gather their half pennies to pay for one child to go into the cinema that child then went up the back and opened a fire door and several dozen weans swarmed in.   Again you could go down the electronic systems route with all the fancy machines you see at airports the trouble with most systems are that they are designed for a single threat (metal detector) and in the end the machines are operated by people and even the most dedicated people can be fallible.

Having re read this, my conclusion is if I was commissioning a building I could try and prepare for every possible threat and either bankrupt my self and probably end up in the local psychiatric ward with a nervous breakdown. I can worry myself into an early grave or commit suicide when I become overwhelmed with all the possible things that could happen, heck we would even have to get rid of stairs in case someone fell down and broke their neck. Or I can do the best I can for people within budgetary and statistical probability restraints placed on me by whoever asked me to get the building built.

Sorry that got a bit longer than my normal posts I was the risk assessment officer among other duties at my old workplace.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 11:52 AM

True Meagan - every building and system will have weak points. All we can do is make them as safe as possible and do the best with what we have. But they will never be fool proof. Too many fools out there for that to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 12:16 PM

Fire safety will always be important; that is always factored in. In the USA, there are sprinklers, monitors, firewalls and doors and alarms, posted exit charts and admonitions as well as other things I don't know about. In addition, there are frequent and random fire drills. Fire safety is important.

Terrorist attacks are harder. The human element makes it less predictable and more difficult to guard against; humans, whether they are aged 60 or 16, are endlessly inventive and may probe until they find the one chink in the armor. And as they say, We have to succeed every time, they need only succeed once.

That said, any added safety feature may well help. A second door, to my mind, is an added safety measure. A room with only one exit, I repeat, is a death trap.

Schools in Alaska cities now routinely lock their exit doors at a certain hour, and any latecomer must ring and use the intercom.

Some classrooms now lock automatically when class is in session.

How about an emergency alarm that warns every classroom that there is an intruder in the building? One of the mystifying elements in the Sandy Hook massacre is that the killer reportedly shot out a window or glass door, and that a guard saw it.

It is all well and good to plan to change our society from the violent one we have to a more peaceable one. Good luck with that, any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 12:27 PM

"How about an emergency alarm that warns every classroom that there is an intruder in the building?"

I asked at my sons school. I was assured that they have a separate alarm sound - apart from the fire alarm - that tells teachers that there is a dangerous situation going on and to take all precautions to protect the students. Let's hope that all the other school systems have something similar now. I think concerned parents should ask their school if this system is in place at your child's school.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 12:36 PM

How about an emergency alarm ...

And what do they do when the alarm sounds?

"Duck And Cover" under their desks as we were taught to do in the 1950's to survive a Nuclear strike?

Or whip out their firearms and prepare to re-enact the OK Corral?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM

By the way. I've heard that there is a company that sells backpacks for kids with bullet-proof panels in them. Their sales have gone through the roof in the last few months.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 12:51 PM

I think it must be really sad to live in such fear it would be interesting to know comparable percentages for example the chance of a school age child getting killed at school, at home, in a car, by a vehicle, drowning or in an aircrash or by a rampaging animal.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 01:16 PM

A school I taught in for 21 years was found to have asbestos as a fire protection material in the ceilings! It was a Victorian building with very good outside fire-escapes to the upstairs classrooms. The asbestos has presumably been put in in modern times as a safety regulation. A child there once set his coat alight in the cloakroom by leaving a lit cigarette in his pocket (little monkey). His coat melted and set all the others alight. They were of a nylon-type material and the smoke was horrendous. It filled the corridor and you couldn't see a hand in front of your face. The fire-alarm went off and my class escaped out of the door to the carpark leading from our room. The others all got out safely. But the thickness of that smoke showed me that it's far more dangerous than actual flames. It was jet black and rolled along like a tsunami. The fire crew said it was terribly toxic. All the coats were merely a little coloured puddle under each peg!

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM

And then there's this.

Those kids want to go to school, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 01:36 PM

Ah, you're not supposed to mention 'those children' Bruce....

So many never give a thought to what America is busy doing in other countries.

It's only American children that count, apparently....


Short of locking your children inside a flameproof, windowless, bulletproof, grenadeproof school building for the majority of their day, for YEARS of their lives, there isn't a great deal you can do to ensure some crazed soul won't try and make his page in history...

Unless, of course, you start dealing with The Crazed Souls in the first place...

And then, there is the anxiety of what might happen to them on the way home, in the bus, or the train, or on their bikes..or in a car...

Life ain't safe...
It's particularly not safe these days because ONE species has fucked it all up to such an extent that we've reached the point we have...

And then, of course, don't EVER even contemplate going to the cinema.

Meanwhile, back at the Drone Launching Pad...................

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 01:44 PM

Meanwhile, back on topic.....

Start your own damn thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 01:50 PM

As far as new schools go I can't help but think that the solutions proposed by the reasonable people among us would be that much more expensive to implement than what we're doing now. Re-tooling old schools would be a nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 02:29 PM

"So many never give a thought to what America is busy doing in other countries."

Damnit. I expect you to be concerned about what can be done in your own country.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 02:48 PM

Ebbie you seem to have a problem where you are our kids wander out at lunch time to get sweets from the garage or sandwiches from the local shop. If they are feeling energetic they walk into town to the cafe or chip shop.

The problem is if you wrap children up in cotton wool and kevlar you cannot expect them not to grow to be neurotic unfunctioning adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 02:58 PM

Funny, the kids here can do that too. At least the high schoolers -- the others are a bit young to be running across busy streets, but many grammar school kids do walk home for lunch (if home is reasonably close and there are low-traffic streets) just as I did many years ago. If they stop at a store for candy on the way back to school, well, they'd best be there by the time school takes up again.

But the school district is not about to let the kids from a school dash across one of the busiest intersections in town so they can buy candy at the convenience store, and rightly so. This does not say that the kids don't sneak out and go there, just as I did those many years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 02:58 PM

Lots will depend on where the money is spent.

Charmion in another thread pointed out something similar regarding Canada and Mali. If we're spending money all over the place we sure won't be spending it at home, whether you live in the US, Canada or the UK. Building fortresses for children to learn in won't defeat drones from other countries, and we can expect that within twenty years.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:03 PM

Ah, but you see, Ebbie, it ISN'T Liz's own country. She's to busy pointing the finger at othercountries. Or other shibboleths off topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:17 PM

There are statistics from the CDC here. Look at the detailed tables, where the 10 leading causes of death are broken out by age group. This is for 2009, the latest data available.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:19 PM

There rests the case for the prosecution M'Lord.

Democracy may be overrated but at least whilst ever 51% of an electorate orbit the real world the la la land of Liz can never prevail.

And for that, thank fuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 04:27 PM

I'm afraid that adding more "escape doors" in my local school system runs counter to the trend of upgrading to "tornado proof" classrooms, since true tornado proofing requires the removal of all exterior openings that the flying junk might crash through.

Some progress is being made on the local project, although they've resisted the suggestion that classrooms should have no doors at all, and arent' too happy with the proposal that there should be one "IN" door in each room with NO EXIT until the stinky little brats have shown enough "larnin'" to be released - with appropriate leash and harness - again in public.

As to the quality of public education, I must say that I'm still working on the last assignments given to me by two of my teachers. The first was in 1955 and the second in 1956. I'm making some progress with both.

To this last, I can add that my own children didn't fare quite as well as I (and my classmates) did, but that's probably because of the growth in "social distractions" and not because the teachers became less capable. There was some degeneration in administration (mostly due to "political correctnesss") but I'm sure we all recognize that factor.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 05:12 PM

Rap, anything that ends in 2009 is hardly relevant today.

Megan C: "The problem is if you wrap children up in cotton wool and kevlar you cannot expect them not to grow to be neurotic unfunctioning adults."

Proposing and installing sensible - and doable - safety features is hardly wrapping youngsters "in cotton wool and kevlar." Or are you contending that children have to just toughen up and take their chances? I don't consider that adults watching out for children is mollycoddling them. We are the ones who created this dangerous world, not they.

We already have many traumatized youngsters who have viewed death up close and personal. Anything we can do to prevent that in future is worth it.

I think that having only one door to a classroom was a shortsighted policy from the first, fit only for sweatshops and crowded nightclubs. I have no doubt but that it came about because of costs, that it had nothing to do with the safety of children.

Furthermore, since the chance is slim of any individual school being targeted for attack, schools have the time to cut and frame doors little by little. It need not be done overnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 06:03 PM

"I think that having only one door to a classroom was a shortsighted policy from the first . . .".

Especially in pre-sprinkler days. I've seen too many schools that have kitchens for use in what used to be home ec classes which now are called food arts (or something like that) and the way out passes in front of the stove--the most likely place for a fire to occur in kitchens. Many of the designs are poorly thought out with an eye to cost-cutting as opposed to safety. Schools have evacuation plans but usually those plans involve escaping fires and not attacks by armed people. The world has changed, but not that much. The following link to Wikipedia contains 'events' involving deaths of students and staff going back to the 1700s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school-related_attacks

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 06:07 PM

anything that ends in 2009 is hardly relevant today.

Why? Please elaborate.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 06:20 PM

Please let us know when your link goes to a PDF, Rapparee. Also, when connecting us to such a delicious compilation of catastrophes, please be specific as to what you want us to peruse. Otherwise, some of us will be pondering it for the rest of the day;-)

Some of us, for instance, will observe that while homicide is not one of the leading causes of death over all, it is in the top ten among young people, particularly white and black men.

Some of us will also puzzle over the fact that for whites of both sexes, at least from 15 or so on, there are always a lot more suicides than homicides (often two to three times as many), where as for blacks, of both sexes, it is reversed, and the homicides tend to greatly out number the suicides.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 06:48 PM

In Rap's list for 2009-2010, there were 11 school homicides. For the last year you can maybe quadruple that, including the Newtown shootings.

Still a long way short of 200 a year, the average number of American children killed by their mothers.

Which would be the more all-American solution, (1) put an armed guard in every home or (2) issue every child with a gun to defend itself against mummy as soon as it was old enough to aim and fire it?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 06:52 PM

Why scarcely any figures post-2009 are relevant? Because since then there have been so many heinous incidents.

Bruce, thank you. I had heard of very few of those primary school incidents, although I remember reading of the Bath School massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 06:46 AM

"So many never give a thought to what America is busy doing in other countries."

"Damnit. I expect you to be concerned about what can be done in your own country."

Well yes, but never close your eyes to what those IN your own country are doing to children and adults in other countries. We here in the UK, for instance, should NOT be in Afghanistan, nor should we have been in Iraq, nor should we be sending soldiers into Mali, and as for Libya...well, don't even get me started! And then, of course, America has been in Africa for a long time...

You cannot start talking about the safety of children in your own country whilst turning a blind eye to what the leaders of your own countries are doing to the children of other countries, without any thought for *those* children at all...


Oh..and over here theh Fire Service no longer is allowed to check on new buildings from a Fire Safety point of view during the Planning Process, for this is now in the hands of those who build the buildings...Thus, mercenary bastards are busy building many firetraps in my country, such as the latest huge Vue Cinema complex in Exeter, which is a Death-Trap-In-Waiting...The Fire Service KNOW about this, as I, and others, have told them of the dangers, but all they can do is give a little advice here and there....

The Fire Officer I spoke to was outraged about this new way of thinking and he agreed it would, undoubtedly, lead to disasters...

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 07:10 AM

Glasgow earned the unfortunate soubriquet of "Tinderbox City" there is a good book on the work of the fire services called tinderbox heros covering the cities post war years covering events like the Graftons clothing store fire in 1948 if i remember rightly it was 13 young women shop assistants lost their life through Cheepside whisky bond in which 19 members of the fire service lost their lives and the one I remember the James Watt Street factory again in an old bond building with iron bars on the windows in which 22 people died.

The point is bad things happen we can do our best to make places safer but when people are strugling to pay rent food and services how much extra will they be willing to pay for precautionary expenditure that may never occur?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 07:36 AM

The single best thing that could be done when new buildings are constructed is to add sprinkler systems, period. You than will get a few hundred gallons from the system or 20,000 gallons from the fire service, your call.

Also, in North America prefabricated stairs are now being used in new construction. The stairs burn through easily thus making it extremely unsafe to go into burning basements or second floor areas. Unless a human life is at risk I think firefighters will have to reassess the benefits of house entry into shoddily-built structures. I hope they do. Certain structures are rightfully called widow-makers. No building is worth a firefighters life, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 06:29 PM

The high school I attended (link to picture above) was essentially a fireproof building (brick and concrete construction) and was, nevertheless, equipped with fire alarms and a sprinkler system—and had periodic fire drills. Most of the standard size classrooms (35 to 40 desks) had only one door, but when the bell rang, you'd be surprised how fast they could empty out. Barring a general building collapse brought on by something like a major earthquake (and this building has survived intact through a few real doozies!), I can't feature anything much rendering the door unusable.

There were three restaurant/lunch counters within a half-block of the school, two fairly good sized and one hole-in-the-wall, that got most of their trade from lunchtime customers from the school, and some kids tended to hang out there and socialize a bit after school. Two of them were across a well-traveled street, but there was a stop light at the main intersection. The food was generally pretty good in terms of taste, variety, and nutrition (the proprietors were conscientious people) and a welcome alternative to the touted "highly nutritional" food in the school cafeteria—which actually wasn't that bad, really.

No problem that I can recall.

Incidentally, anti-smoking rules (tobacco—pot was practically unheard of then, suddenly coming into vogue in the Sixties) were strictly enforced within five blocks of the school for an hour before and after school. Penalty for being caught smoking was having to come in forty-five minutes early a specified number of mornings for detention. Kids who cut classes without a valid reason (written excuse from parent) also wound up in detention. And the school informed the parents of the transgression.

There were some regulars who showed up in detention (bring your textbooks and study or stare silently at the wall, your choice. And no talking!), and I'm pretty sure they didn't like school much. I remember a couple of kids who got picked up in a stolen car. They were joyriding.

But they were a tiny minority.

I can't think of much of anything to make school buildings more secure, other than a vast horde of armed guards, such as stationing a National Guard unit in every school building.

Home schooling, from what I've heard and seen of it, is not really a viable alternative. Most parents simply aren't qualified. Many who are hell-bent on home schooling have an agenda. "I ain't havin' nobody teach my kids no stuff about evolution, no sirree! I'm teachin' 'em good Christian values, by God!!"

And when, in a large number of families, both parents have to work to make ends meet, who's going to be doing the teaching?

No, there's got to be a better way. The schools are not the problem.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 06:57 PM

Well said, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 07:14 PM

Meanwhile, look at what parents aren't doing to not kill their children.

The CDC keeps records of accidental deaths in children. The three largest categories (all vastly outnumbering homicide) are automobile accidents, poisoning (usually by prescription drugs) and drowning (which for young children is most often in a home swimming pool).

Most parents can't be arsed minimizing or eliminating their car usage, or keeping less pills around and taking proper care of them. And the small minority with a swimming pool are so attached to their status symbol that they refuse to see how likely it is to get them a Darwin Award.

Schools that act as irresponsibly as lethal parents do will get disciplinary action and get pilloried in the papers. How often do you see a parent get their mugshot in the crime section of the paper for taking their kid on a lethal, pointless car trip, leaving a bottle of painkillers on the kitchen table or operating a deathtrap pool?

In ancient Rome (until some point during the Republic) it was an absolute right for a father to kill his children while they were under 21. De facto, the US operates by the same code.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 10:07 PM

Just wanted to let you know Jack, how much I enjoy it when you post links to music. You have a discerning in in that area.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:13 AM

Uk schools have to conform to fire regulations with regard to design and build. Fire departments then check them periodically once occupied. This has always been the caee. It has also been the case that planning officers can consult with their local fire service if they feel the design may be borderline. My experience not my view. Only last month I inspected a care home on care quality and the fire service turned up for theirs at the same time. I sit on advisory and safeguarding boards with fire service officers and Liz's waffle doesn't exist in the real world some of us work in.

Just in case anybody believed Liz and her fantasy..

Subject: RE: BS: Death Trap Schoolrooms
From: Megan L
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 09:00 AM

Jacks posts encouraged me to do some rooting around for information this site gives intresting figures based on three countries study of child homicide UK canada and USA sorry for the small c

The great writer of Scottish Historical fiction Nigel Tranter always encouraged people to search for sources written by various people and decide for themselves where the path lay some folk in here often make the quote about opinions a similar thing could be said about sources everyone has an angle.