Emma Hartley stirring it up again

Subject: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:16 PM

Emma Hartley, thorn in the flesh of the BBC, and whose head is permanently over the parapet, is all guns blazing again - this time in defence of the Mumfords   Takes some guts.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:58 PM

Good article. Thanks for the link, Stuart.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 01:57 AM

Thorn in the flesh of the BBC?

Oh yeah, I bet it's DefCon One at the BBC every time she posts one of her hard-hitting exposes.

FNNNNNnnnnttt (that's the online symbol for a derisive snorting noise)

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 02:28 AM

" The folk music scene in England and Wales at the beginning of 2013 is this country's most undervalued cultural asset."

Typical Brit.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,English Guest
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 02:48 AM

Well: you know, what do you expect from Ms Hartley.
However, I'm sure Gemma Kidney will be along soon to talk some sense.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Gavin Atkin
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 03:18 AM

Ms Hartley's piece is clearly the work of an idealist with a passion for the artists whose work she enjoys. That's good.

But at the risk of bring called a traddie or 'typical of the problem with the folk scene' I don't see the point of arguing that one act is 'folk' (or another is not) without telling us the reasons - I'd like to have the opportunity to work out whether I agree.

I suspect there's all sorts of considerations at work in the background here, including a right wing magazine'song standing antipathy towards the BBC, and any number of folk and mainstream business issues way beyond my knowledge...


.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 03:54 AM

The Mumfords are bland pap.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 04:00 AM

And with her usual unerring accuracy Hartley heads down the blind alley of secrecy (we've heard it all before, love) and totally misses the vital issue of whether Mumford and Sons are folk - which they are not.

Folk a cultural asset? Surely so. But she then ignores that central point to spin words aimlessly, her main hope being self-promotion. All in the best traditions of the Spectator - oh, and who was that blonde muppet who used to write for it?

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 04:19 AM

She should be on the stage.


The next one leaving town, that is!

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 04:26 AM

When I started reading I thought this was going to be a re-hash of her campaign to expose the Folk Awards judges. It turned out to be a well-argued piece about the neglect of the folk arts by the establishment. I didn't agree with some of it, but overall I found it a good article.

Are the Mumfords "despised" by the folk world? More disregarded, I should have thought, on the grounds that their music doesn't have a great deal to do with the folk scene other than their use of "folky" instruments. And perhaps a bit of jealousy that they're doing so well.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 04:27 AM

Genres of music don't need 'promotion' to be pushed into commercial popularity, they come and go in waves just like any other fashion.

What's needed is the traditional songs and tunes of these isles as well as their history and social context to have some representation in whatever remains of musical education in this country.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:02 AM

I know of at least one leading folk festival who tried to book Mumford & Sons a couple of years back. They ( or their management) refused to do it, at any price!!, because they "didn't want to be branded as folkies".

Says it all really.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:04 AM

"The Mumfords are bland pap"

Here we go! They're a damn sight more exciting than the bland pap produced by around 94.76% (at a very rough estimate)of traditional musicians these days.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:11 AM

I wrote to Emma a while back now, warning her what would face, to be seen in many of the posts here already.

Been there, done that, got the T shirt and the Traddie Armour...

Good luck to her!

She's bringing Flowing Blood BACK to the Cadavers of the Moaning Minnies who have been deprived, for so long, from having someone to aim their vitriol at..


Keep at it, Emma! :0) xx

And..YAY! for The Mumfords!!!

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:28 AM

Exactly Graham, right from their early days Mumford and Sons were claiming that they were not folkies and disassociating themselves from folk music. Only those on the very periphery of the folk scene would continue to argue their folk credentials.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:46 AM

What is the point of the article? Dunno, it reads like a Daily Mail Rant.

How about this:

"So no, the BBC cannot currently be trusted as an arbiter in this situation, not while the suspicion lingers that the folk awards are being used as a financial back-scratching exercise for the corrupt middle men and women of the folk music world who have little interest in celebrating new bands"

Mumford & Sons don't sing folk songs and they are not new. They are good at what they do and are now famous and succesful - and so is Adele.

We will never define folk music because it is too big to make definite, but at one end we have Bellowhead and at the other we have small groups of people gathering in acoustic spaces to sing old songs and play old tunes. This base is what makes folk different from most other genres.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:11 AM

There's plenty of exciting music out there. This last month I have seen Spyder Byte twice (average age about 20, power rock-cock-pop, starting to get radio play) Lola Colt (average age about 30 - immensely sophisticated psycho-twang) The Chosen Few (average age in the 40s maybe - many nearly were recording stars - the best driving pub-rock and commercial blues you will find) and Martin Carthy who continues to hypnotise and cause shock and awe.

There are some riveting local folk acts down here in Kent (I'm not going to name names, they'll only get big-headed). Some do proper folk, some Americana, some blues. I could name you three women unaccompanied singers (two very traddie) who can stop the row in a crowded lagerswilling pub with a short opening phrase.

And there is some dogshit in open mics and at gigs - one of the gigs I went to had, as well as one good band, a total smartarse with a crap sounding acoustic guitar pissing about with a loop pedal - but he fell off the loop about 5 times - a pair of white acoustic rappers with no boogie and dreadful mic technique (what rap surely lives and dies by) and possibly the least together heavy band I've ever heard - I was out listening to the jukebox in 15 seconds.

There is SO much skill out there in the largely ignored metal music scene - blazing riffs at 300 bpm - and it has sustained itself with no interest from media or record companies for about a decade.

Mumford and Sons are just bland pretenders. Stop dissing folk.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Stu
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:42 PM

"Only those on the very periphery of the folk scene . . ."

Heathens! Heretics! Splitters! Those not in the club, eh? Thems wot's in the middle of the folk scene are the ones with the knowledge, hey?

I have no clue whether I'm on the periphery of the folk scene (whatever that is) or not, but I like the Mumfords. I couldn't give a stuff whether people call them or anyone else folk or whatever, it's all subjective.


"Some do proper folk"

Pray tell, O wise one, what is this "proper folk" you speak of? Define it for all us poor, misguided fools.

"Stop dissing folk."

Yawn.

Haters gonna hate I suppose.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: selby
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:53 PM

Mumford and sons wether they like it or we like it. to my certain knowledge are responsible for bringing young people into folk music.
There are also in my opinion a good number of performers that do fantastic work, release good CD.s and in Radio 2 award land do not get recognised. There is one performer/s who seem to sit up in the upper echelons who for the life of me I can't fathom why. Must be back to. You can please.................all of the time
Keith

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:55 PM

Some hack writing for a hard-right Tory rag tells us we should all be listening to David Cameron's favourite band. This is news?

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 01:36 PM

I suppose it's better than his wife's favourite Azalea's 212. The words to that are fairly odd in places.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 02:23 PM

"Yawn"

I'm with Jack. Having recently discovered Philip Glass' Einstein of the Beach I've begun to realise how exciting music can be once you break away from moaning traddie-style folk.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 02:32 PM

Mumford and sons is music for bed-wetters. About the only thing that it has to do with folk is that they twang some instruments and that it's bland. If "twanging instruments and being bland" is the definition of folk, then that's very sad.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 02:48 PM

+1 for Jack

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 02:54 PM

"Mumford and sons is music for bed-wetters"

What a stupid fucking comment - it's you who needs to grow up, saddo. Unless, of course, you're a complete moron - or both.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 03:00 PM

I'm a moron because I like my music to have a bit of edge, not just be bland commercial pap? Charming.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:38 PM

Come on, chaps, grow up!

M&S have a massive following and if the commercial world want to label it 'folk' then we don't have a lot of say in that. They didn't label themselves 'folk'. I gave up long ago trying to fight against the tide. I've got better things to do and have found more precise labels for what I like.
From what I've heard of them they don't sound like folk to me, more like 'country' but they're pretty good at what they do.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Gavin Atkin
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:41 PM

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM

It doesn't matter whether people thing the Mumsies are folk or not. They are hugely successful for taking the Coldplay formula and repeating it on acoustic instruments. Not my cup of tea, but good luck to 'em. Personally, if I'm not listening to the sort of folk music I enjoy, I'd far rather be listening to Gnod, Wooden Shjips, White Manna, The Sufis, Mmoss, The Belbury Poly or the mighty Goat. Just spare me coffee table music in any genre...

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,SPLCR
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:31 PM

think not thing...

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 07:22 PM

If Mumford and Sons dont think they are Folk , why sould anyone else try to say are ??

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:02 AM

Meanwhile the search for the square root of -1 continues

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:42 AM

Journalists write articles for money. Look at the threads she starts and then see how often she comes back to defend her position.

Emma has a sincerely held opinion about Mumford and Sons. For money.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:49 AM

No, that kind of thing could be seen as karuptun couldn't?

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: doc.tom
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 06:32 AM

Gavin says it all above, really!

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Stu
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 07:06 AM

"If "twanging instruments and being bland" is the definition of folk, then that's very sad."

C'mon then. Still waiting for the navel-gazing pure receivers of the tradition to elucidate what 'folk' is and enlighten us poor, bedwetting, devoid-of-taste plebs.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 07:10 AM

My definition of folk is, "If I like it, it's folk". And I was born in 1954, so there :)

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:06 AM

Once again, some people prefer to insult someone who holds different musical tastes than theirs. Rather than make a constructive reply.
It is ill mannered, boorish, childish, etc etc.
It is possible to disagree, without name calling
It is possible to criticise,without labelling.

Try it!

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Stu
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 09:03 AM

"My definition of folk is, "If I like it, it's folk". And I was born in 1954, so there :)"

As good a definition as any Howard (and you don't look a day over 21).

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 09:17 AM

Fin de siecle stuff - reminds me of the letters page of NME, .ong after everybody had stopped reading with any sense of expectation

The Dogshitters have sold out....! Gimme a break. The kind of reactionary bollocks you might expect from spotty teenagers listening to Fartbenders!!!l

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Guest Folkiedave
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM

Mumford and Sons?

Coldplay with a banjo.

Definition of folk? Music that accompanies a raffle.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 11:25 AM

Well is billy bragg folk?

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 11:50 AM

Richard from Liverpool seems to have discovered several of the problems of the ageing folkie, incontinence, short-sightedness, forgetfulness I am sure there are others but we wont embarrass the poor soul.

Senility sucks

especially when you forget where you left your false teeth.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 12:26 PM

I know the feeling, Megan. I hope you don't have to look far.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM

Howard:

My definition of folk is, "If I like it, it's folk".

If I used that definition I'd be on here all day explaining why Radiohead and the Shins and the Magnetic Fields are folk, and I don't think you'd want that.

Or did I misunderstand the comment - are you saying that we should all define folk as whatever you like? I'd be fine with that. As long as you don't get a liking for Radiohead.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 01:16 PM

Steve Gardham wrote:-
"M&S have a massive following..."

... and not just for their underwear.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 02:25 PM

Billy Bragg is what used to be called a 'Protest Singer', and as such he comes within the folk ambit.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 05:22 PM

I don't know, John. I mean, when you get right down to it, what *is* the folk ambit?

I'll get my jerkin.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 06:05 PM

I don't know that Ms Hartley stirs it up, but she certainly gets attention.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 07:51 PM

I reckon if you like music and some of it might be folk, the whole thing is a lot easier. Still don't like the Mumsies, though.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:05 PM

Since my last post many of you will have heard of the sad death of Sean McShugganadh of The Fartbenders.

He will always be remembered for the Pibroch lamenting the Retreat of Glasgow Ranger Fans down Tottenham Court Road. His championing of the midi crumhorn and his subsequent struggles and selfless dedication to keeping folk music a complete minority artform makes him an automatic choice for next years BBC Folk Awards.

His complete invisibility on the English folkscene as usual nakes him probably the strongest contender, and the critic's natural choice.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Heard it all before
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 10:19 AM

The funniest bit, and the aspect that shows what illl-informed nonsense Emma Hartley is spouting (as usual) is the reverse snobbery argument. If she's right (and I mean that in the most Torygraph sense of the word) the folk world dismisses Mumford & Sons because of their poshness and public school background - all folkies being chippy lefties, you see. Which explains why Bellowhead, with their Oxbridge degrees (wasn't Jon Boden's dad the bursar of Balliol College?) have been so roundly despised and snubbed by the folk world and the Folk Awards. Oh. Wait...

The usual contentious, groundless opinion presented as journalism. Best ignored.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST,Puzzled of Barnsley.
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 11:29 AM

And of course Eliza Carthy was privately educated and so was Horizon Award Winner 2013 Blair Dunlop.

Subject: RE: Emma Hartley stirring it up again
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 11:40 AM

…and Young Folk Award winner Ciaran Algar, who even thanked his prefect in their speech.