BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:48 PM

Both the United Nations and Russia have condemned Israel for the bombing of Syria and Lebanon, hoping that Israel will be forced to appear at the International World Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:58 PM

UN has NOT condemned Israel
Russia has said it condemns it if Syria's version is true, which nobody believes.
This is what Hilary Clinton said,
In her final press interview as US Secretary of State, Mrs Clinton said one of Iran's "highest priorities" was keeping Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in power.

"We believe they have acted on that by sending in more personnel, not only to help Assad, but to support and advise military security forces," she told reporters.

Mrs Clinton added that Iran had increased the quality of its arms sent to Syria because "Assad is using up his weaponry".

She expressed similar concerns with regards to Russia's involvement in the conflict.

"We have reason to believe that the Russians continue to supply financial and military assistance in the form of equipment," she said

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 04:09 PM

Report from BBC a couple of days ago

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 04:15 PM

What is the " International World Court" Stringsinger?
Is Israel so evil that you just have to make things up?
Do you actually know anything about Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 04:17 PM

The Syrian Foreign Ministry, Walid al Muallem, has appealed to the United Nations to condemn the air strike by the Israeli Air Force.

Get your facts right for once, Frank.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: pdq
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 05:12 PM

"We have reason to believe that the Russians continue to supply financial and military assistance in the form of equipment," she said ~ The Hillary

"We have reason to believe?" That is so lame as to be pathetic.

Hillary is at the top of an inteligence pyramid that is the greatset the world has ever known. It includes information from the Isaeli intelligence and all of our allies, not just our people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 05:13 PM

The Israeli government is facing international condemnation for a proposal for 3,000 new settlements in the occupied West Bank and east Jerusalem.
Any criticism of Israel's Anschluss is immediately converted into accusations of antisemitism and nothing is done. Bullies eventually meet their nemesis so God, Allah or whatever help the Middle East because no one else will.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 07:57 PM

Mussolini was once condemned by the League of Nations too...for attacking Ethiopia. The condemnation had no effect whatsoever on Italian policy, any moreso than present condemnations will have any effect on Israeli policy...which is indeed the Israeli Anschluss.

Fascists are simply not intimidated by international disapproval. When God is on your side and you are therefore a *very special and important* people with a very special destiny apart from all others, no form of outside disapproval causes intimidation...rather it causes a heady sense of offended righteousness, and a bold determination to pursue the established course of action, yea, harder than before, in order to achieve the Final Victory!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:03 PM

Do you know anything about Syria, Keith?

Do you have a problem with Iran, or anyone else, trying to keep Bashar al-Asad in power? Do you support Israel's latest flouting of international law which, as you know perfectly well, is what the latest bombing adventure was, whether or not the UN condemns it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 03:02 AM

Do you ever look at the Syria thread?

No sensible person wants to see Syria's arsenal handed out to militant Islamists, as happened in Libya.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 03:20 AM

Nothing to say about Mali, but as soon as Israel is mentioned here they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 04:19 AM

Syria is the greatest humanitarian catastrophe in the world today, and ordinary people and children killed in tens of thousands, but no interest here until the word "Israel" is mentioned.
Then straight in with disgusting Nazi comparisons.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 10:42 AM

Mali isn't mentioned in the thread title; the discussion is about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 11:50 AM

The comment was as true of Mali as it is about Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:01 AM

No further word from the OP to acknowledge that everything stated as fact in the OP is, in fact, made up, or to explain why 60 000 killings in Syria not committed by Israel passed him by unnoticed, but one targeted strike resulting in almost no loss of life provokes a dedicated thread.

Peter.
Israel's latest flouting of international law which, as you know perfectly well, is what the latest bombing adventure was

No, it was not.
A state of war exists between Israel and Syria, and a strike against a military convoy delivering advanced weaponry to terrorists is both legal and justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:14 AM

""The comment was as true of Mali as it is about Syria.""

My, how your attitudes change!

YOU were the one who refused to discuss the illegal West Bank settlements in a thread about Gaza.

Now you bring Mali into a thread about Israel.

MAKE UP YOUR MIND! But do so even handedly, not according to your fanatical pro Israel bias.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 09:50 AM

Yep, here they come.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 01:43 PM

Israel stopped Assad, who has murdered tens of thousands of his own people, from transferring sophisticated weaponry, very possibly chemical and biological weapons, into the hands of terrorists.

I know that rankles the Strngsinger but I say THANK YOU ISRAEL for making the world just a little bit safer.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:57 AM

Don, I did not discuss Mali, and neither did anyone else.
999 just made an observation that people (like you) were rushing to post on this thread but had no interest in the Mali thread (or the Syria thread).

Now that is cleared up, what is your opinion of the OP?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:44 AM

If it is obvious that a man is going to punch me in the mouth, you can bet your ass I'm going to land one first.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 08:04 AM

I agree with that Kendall!

But you wouldn't shoot him and half a dozen of his neighbours, which is the level of "proportional" response normally to be expected from Israel. And you would make certain his intent was to do you violence, not some other person.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 08:26 AM

Don't over analyze my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

The transfer of weapons to Hezboallah is prohibited BY THE UN, in the ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon of some years back. Thus, ISRAEL is enforcing the UN treaty, and SYRIA is in violation of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 09:17 AM

Excellent point BB.
Don, there were very few casualties, so you are supporting Israel's action?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM

One wonders how 'boy wonder' will explain this away!!
Jim Carroll

UN panel concludes Israeli settlement policy illegal under international law, should stop now
Published January 31, 2013
Associated Press
GENEVA – The United Nations' first report on the broad policy of Israeli settlements concluded Thursday that the government's practice of "creeping annexation" clearly violates the human rights of Palestinians, and called for the country to immediately stop the practice.
In its report to the 47-nation Human Rights Council, a panel of investigators said Israel is violating international humanitarian law under the Fourth Geneva Convention, one of the treaties that establish the ground rules for what is considered humane during wartime.
The Israeli government has persisted in settling Palestinian-occupied territorities, including East Jerusalem and the West Bank, "despite all the pertinent United Nations resolutions declaring that the existence of the settlements is illegal and calling for their cessation," the report said.
The settlements are "a mesh of construction and infrastructure leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian State and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination," it concludes.
French judge Christine Chanet, who led the panel, said Israel never cooperated with the probe, which the council ordered last March. At a news conference, she called the report "a kind of weapon for the Palestinians" if they want to take up their grievances before The Hague-based International Criminal Court.
Another panel member, Pakistani lawyer Asma Janangir, said the settlements "seriously impinge on the self-determination of the Palestinian people," an offense under international humanitarian law.
The panel's report to the U.N.'s top human rights body immediately drew the condemnation of Israel, whose foreign ministry accused the council of taking a systematically one-sided and biased approach towards Israel, with the report being merely "another unfortunate reminder" of that bias.
"The only way to resolve all pending issues between Israel and the Palestinians, including the settlements issue, is through direct negotiations without pre-conditions," the ministry said. "Counterproductive measures — such as the report before us — will only hamper efforts to find a sustainable solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/#ixzz2JxSAeUMd

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:13 PM

The anti Israel bias of the UN is well known and long standing, read about it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:21 PM

From the Anti Defamation League:

"This resolution makes a mockery of human rights by focusing its efforts on bullying Israel while completely ignoring serious humanitarian violations across the world. It will only prove destructive by further exacerbating tensions between the Israelis and Palestinians."

"Of the 91 decisions made by the United Nations body since it was created three years ago, so far, 39 have singled out Israel for criticism, while only three votes have involved Syria, and one dealt with Iran."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:23 PM

Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:

The recent HRC report is another clear example of the body's institutionalized extreme anti-Israeli bias, and only serves to further discredit the council. The findings of the report, couched in terms of presumed Israeli guilt, confirm that its purpose was illegitimate in its conception. The so-called fact-finding commission chose its own facts and found precisely what the anti-Israel crowd on the HRC wanted them to find. The report, like a long list of others before it, further validates Israel's decision to distance itself from this biased U.N. body.

A number of accusations brought by the commission are outlandish and without merit, and many echo incendiary comments made by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas during his recent U.N. speeches. These include charges that Israel is actively seeking to erase the non-Jewish connection to religious sites in Jerusalem and Hebron, and that violence by settlers toward Palestinians is being carried out in collusion with the Israeli government.

The report's recommendations are even more problematic. Demanding that Israel immediately withdraw all settlers from the West Bank is unrealistic and outside the framework of the Quartet's Roadmap. Calling on private companies and governments to terminate all their business interests in the settlements – a position reflecting the views of the notoriously anti-Israel figure Richard Falk – is an inherently one-sided and counter-productive measure.

Instead of offering practical solutions to help bring the Israelis and Palestinians back to negotiations, the report's recommendations only further push away the prospects for peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:00 PM

From Wikipdedia:

Linguist and activist Noam Chomsky has characterized ADL as having lost entirely its focus on civil rights issues to become solely an advocate for Israeli policy; he holds that ADL casts all left-wing opposition to Israeli interests as antisemitism.

And:

In 2005, Norman G. Finkelstein published Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History which devotes Part 1 to "The Not-So-New 'New Anti-Semitism'." In a 2006 appearance on Amy Goodman's Democracy Now!, Finkelstein denied there was any evidence for a rise of a new anti-Semitism in either Europe or North America. He continued, "Every time Israel comes under international pressure, as it did recently because of the war crimes committed in Lebanon, it steps up the claim of anti-Semitism, and all of Israel's critics are anti-Semitic." According to Finkelstein, the ADL and Foxman, its president, have advanced this "preposterous" deception.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:10 PM

This video illustrates just how much of a joke is the UN "Human Rights" Council.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:19 PM

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.( T. Jefferson)
I stand behind Israel 100%.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:31 PM

Understanding UN Bias Against Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:54 PM

"The anti Israel bias of the UN is well known and long standing, read about it here"
Sorry - read your link - can find no reference to illegal settlements and their human rights effects on Palestine.
Are you claiming that these settlements are not illegal?
or
That they have no effect on the Palestinian people?
or
That any reference to illegal settlements is an indication of anti-Antisemitism?
The UN (including the US) has condemned these settlements as being an abuse of human rights.
In the past the US has used its power of veto overwhelmingly more than any other member of the UN - mainly in support of Israeli atrocities and crimes against humanity, it is therefore reasonable to assume that in this case, Israel has overstepped the mark in its announcement of a huge increase in these illegal settlements; basically an act of spite in revenge for giving Palestine observer status at the UN (not forgetting, of course an attempt to gain the support of an ultra-right party in the recent elections).
Please stop hiding behind the old get-out of "anti-Semitism" and address the question in hand - illegal settlements as an act of open aggression against a Third-world people.
Israel is a terrorist nation - no less.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 04:58 PM

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.( T. Jefferson)

That'as a common myth, Kendall, but no-one has ever been able to find it in Jefferson's writings or document he ever uttered it.

The person you're quoting is John Birch.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:53 AM

Jim, you have made two posts without even mentioning the subject of the OP!
Your opinion on the air-strike please.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:40 AM

"Your opinion on the air-strike please."
Do not tell me what and what not to write about.
You have lied, twisted and distorted your way through the last four threads, producing no evidence for your disgusting arguments and ignoring all the evidence put by others while claiming there has been none - the end result being that you have filibusted them out of existence.
It ain't gonna happen here.
If you have anything (concrete) to say on what I have written, please feel free, otherwise take your attempts to manipulate threads while at the same time misrepresenting and distorting the opinions of others and shove them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM

It is not me attempting to manipulate the subject.
You try to make every ME thread about settlements.
It is a complex issue requiring a dedicated thread, so start one or reopen one of the many existing threads about it.

Rights abuses in Israel are dwarfed by what goes on in surrounding countries, so why do you people always single out Israel for abuse?

Is it because surrounding countries are all Arabs and you have a low opinion and expectation of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:06 AM

Last word on this (to you)
I can think of no worst cenario for world peace than a dogfight between three terrorist states bewtween which you could not insert a credit card.
Now butt out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM

That should read "two" terrorist states.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:17 AM

The subject of this thread is the recent airstrike.
So, what is your view on it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:38 AM

""Thus, ISRAEL is enforcing the UN treaty, and SYRIA is in violation of it.""

So tell me BB, who officially appointed Israel to the position of UN Enforcers?

And Keith, once again you try to put words in my mouth by lying.

I do not support the concept of any nation's military forces initiating aggressive action (Acts of War) on foreign territory, without either Declaration of Hostilities or formal authority of the UN.

That includes, but is not limited to, you favourite warmongers.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM

without either Declaration of Hostilities

A state of war does exist.
Any member can enforce for UN.
BB showed that formal authority of UN existed.
So Don, what other objection have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM

""Of the 91 decisions made by the United Nations body since it was created three years ago, so far, 39 have singled out Israel for criticism, while only three votes have involved Syria, and one dealt with Iran."""

Could that be because the problems with Iran and Syria concern domestic matters within their own borders, which, however much one might deplore them, are not anybody else's business, while Israel's Imperial aggression is destabilising the whole Middle East region?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:49 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:01 AM

""A state of war does exist.
Any member can enforce for UN.
BB showed that formal authority of UN existed.
So Don, what other objection have you?""

I bow to your superior knowledge O wise one so tell me, your magnificence, exactly when did Israel formally declare war on Syria, whose territory they just violated?

As to your nonsensical claim that any member can invade any country if the UN has stated that something that country is doing is illegal, well it hardly deserves the effort of an answer.

The stupidity of your position on this is remarkable, even taking into account your well established Pro Israel bias.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 07:31 AM

exactly when did Israel formally declare war on Syria,
"Upon independence, Israel was invaded by the armies of six Arab nations: Egypt, Syria, Transjordan (later Jordan), Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. In addition, local Arab Palestinian forces also fought the Jewish Israelis. Israel held off the Arab forces and established itself as an independent nation. From the start of this war, Syria and Israel have been engaged in one continuous legal state of war. While technically at war this whole time, in reality, their conflict has been punctuated by several major (though short), wars and numerous cross-border attacks and air battles."

any member can invade any country if the UN has stated that something that country is doing is illegal
No-one has been invaded, they just stopped a serious violation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 07:49 AM

Gate man sees name, garage man sees name tag.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:00 AM

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance" has been attributed to Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine and Andrew Jackson.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:04 AM

Israel is surrounded by enemies who have vowed to wipe it off the map. Self preservation is job one in any species.

Thats not to say that the Palestinians don't deserve a homeland. Remember how Israel was formed?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM

"Remember how Israel was formed?"
Yup - by throwing hand grenades into Palestinian homes to clear the way for a 'Promised land' - and that slaughter has never really stopped.
Wonder why the Palestinians don't trust the Israeli regime - funny lot!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:33 AM

But what about the airstrike Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:42 AM

Yes it has, Kendall, and a host of others as well - but there's no evidence for ANY of the attributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:03 AM

So what? it's a true quote. It's like that other quote, "Success has a hundred fathers, failure is an orphan". (Maybe not an exact quote)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:47 AM

""Of the 91 decisions made by the United Nations body since it was created three years ago, so far, 39 have singled out Israel for criticism, while only three votes have involved Syria, and one dealt with Iran."""

Could that be because the problems with Iran and Syria concern domestic matters within their own borders, which, however much one might deplore them, are not anybody else's business, while Israel's Imperial aggression is destabilising the whole Middle East region?

If I may expand on my earlier reply, no it could not Don.
The "body" was The Human Rights Council which considers abuses within states.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 12:03 PM

"But what about the airstrike Jim?"
Are your really trying to provoke another one-to-one?
You've had your answer - the fact that, as usual, you can't be arsed to read it is your problem.
Do not tell others what and what not to answer.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:50 PM

So what? it's a true quote.

That makes no sense, Kendall - it can't be a "quote" if it has no author - but I'll let it go.

Also, its a rather foolish & simplistic sentiment, but I'll let that go, too.

Cheers,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:20 PM

""While technically at war this whole time, in reality, their conflict has been punctuated by several major (though short), wars and numerous cross-border attacks and air battles.""

When was the last cross border attack or air battle in Israeli territory or airspace Keith? In other words, is this another "war" in which all the aggression is on the Israli side.

""No-one has been invaded, they just stopped a serious violation.""

Crossing the border and destroying vehicles, equipment and personnel belonging to a separate sovereign nation sounds like a prety fair description of invasion, and your comment about dealing with a violation is simply untrue.

Any nation wishing to do that would be required to be acting under the terms of a UN resolution to that effect, not a mere declaration of illegality.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:23 PM

UNSCR 1701

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:45 PM

What bugs me the most is that I feel that Israel is trying to suck the US into a war of Israel's choice...

I think Israel needs to chill a little here and allow the US and Iran a little breathing room as there is a renewed interest on both sides to move toward direct talks between the two...

There is enough destabilization in the region now without creating even more...

And please, no sermons on how Iran says this or that... That's been going on for decades... Let's break that cycle and try to find peaceful ways to move forward...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:46 PM

What bugs me the most is that I feel that Israel is trying to suck the US into a war of Israel's choice..

Of course Israel is, and they'll likely succeed, because no-one has the balls to stand up to Israel & the atrocities they commit and the international laws they break out of fear that someone will call them "anti-semites".

Its unfortunate BS - and Hagel was spot on - there IS one hellacious Israel Lobby operating in the U. S.

What's the truism that persons who are abused will grow up to abuse others?

Q.E.D. in spades.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:37 PM

Don, was Britain invaded thousands of times in 1940.
Of course an airstrike is not an invasion, silly!
Syria has invaded Israel several times and fired thousands of artillery rounds into Israel.

Providing advanced weaponry to Hezbollah would be explosively and catastrophically destabilising.
I take it that nobody here would want that, but they were on their way.
Israel was the only power in the world in a position to enforce the UN ban and stop te delivery in time, and they achieved it with little loss of life.
How about one cheer for them?

Jim, you use this thread as just another platform for your rabid anti-Israel propaganda.
You refuse to address the subject of the thread, and become offensively abusive when just asked for your view on the thread subject.
Your have made no contribution at all to the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:58 AM

Don, please could you clarify your view on this.
You seem to be OK with the UN ban, and OK about someone enforcing it, as long as it is not Israel.
Right?
Presumably because everything Israel does is automatically wrong.
Right?

In what way could someone else have done it better?
The advanced weapons were on their way to the Hezbollah terrorists.
Last year in Bulgaria Hezbollah blew up a bus, killing a local driver and five young Israeli tourists, one of them pregnant.
http://world.time.com/2013/02/05/u-s-bulgaria-likely-to-link-hizballah-to-bus-bomb/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 03:40 AM

"You refuse to address the subject of the thread, "
I have addressed the subject of this thread - you choose once again to ignore it.
Israel is a terrorist power with imperialist aims, consistently annexing land and building illegal settlements, and having no compunction at slaughtered and terrorising civilians in order to do so.
Syria is run by a vicious regime that has slaughtered its own people, while the UN and the rest of the world has stood by and done nothing, allowing Assad to turn what was originally a pro-democracy protest into a 'civil war', the result being a massive bloodbath, sanctioned by the world's cynical inaction.
There is little to choose between Israel and Syria when it comes to human rights abuses and the slaughter of civilians.
The idea that a terrorist nation with nuclear capability should carry out acts of unsupported military aggression against a bunch of equally murderous nutters like the Syrian regime fills me with horror, especially as the Israeli regime has chosen a party of ultra-right, ultra-religious head-cases as electoral running-mates.
Syria has already committed military attacks on Turkey - not the most democratic of regimes, and Iran, a somewhat volatile bunch, rapidly heading for nuclear capability, is waiting in the wings to become involved.
You are obviously looking for some kind of support for Israel's aggression.
As far as I'm concerned they are all a bunch of fanatical thugs behaving as such in the most unstable part of this planet.
I said as much earlier in this thread in not so many words (05 Feb 13 - 05:06 AM ) - you have chosen to ignore it, which leads me to the conclusion that you are more interested in pursuing personal vendettas and provoking one-to-one arguments than you are in the subject in hand.
This attitude goes through your contributions to virtually all the threads you have become involved in on this forum of late.
Address the subjects in hand and stop behaving like a vicious pratt in order to make these threads your own personal stamping ground.
Leave me alone and do not wreck yet another thread - sort yourself out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

It is nothing to do with any imagined vendetta Jim.
I am just interested in your view of the air strike to prevent the arms shipment.
That is what this thread is about, and I still do not know.
Does anyone else?

You just post more anti-Israel rhetoric with no substance at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM

You have no interest whatever in my opinion, as shown by the fact that you have completely ignored that you have demanded that I give an opinion on something I have already commented on - which you have been once again openly lying about. I do not expect for one moment that you will either acknowledge that fact or apologise for having done so   
If you continue to interfere with my making a contribution, and deliberately attempt to provoke the same type of one-to-one that has ruined thread after thread I shall report you.
Leave me alone, you creepy little stalker.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 05:53 AM

""Don, was Britain invaded thousands of times in 1940.
Of course an airstrike is not an invasion, silly!""

You really are a dope! Britain was in an ongoing formally declared situation of armed hostilities with Germany, hostilities which were currently operating on both sides.

""Syria has invaded Israel several times and fired thousands of artillery rounds into Israel.""

Since you cannot, or will not answer awkward questions, I'll save you the trouble.

The last time open hostilities (Official State of War) existed between Israel and Syria was the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Since then the following have occurred:-

""The Israeli Invasion of Lebanon (1982-1984)--In response to repeated guerrilla attacks by the PLO, which were launched from South Lebanon, Israel invaded with the intent of destroying Arafat's forces. Syria, which maintained a large army in Lebanon, fought Israel and suffered an embarrassing defeat. See The Israeli-Lebanon Conflict (1978-Present).

Israeli Air Strike on Syria (October, 2003)-- Israeli warplanes hit the Syrian village of Ain al-Saheb, near Damascus.

Israeli Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance. See War and Conflict Journal's article on this attack.

As of April, 2010, tensions between Syria and Israel were rising, with Israeli sources indicating that Syria was transferring powerful Scud missiles to the Hezbollah Islamist militia in Lebanon. See an interesting article about the possible ramifications of this development toward a possible new Israel-Syria war at Plotting the Next Mideast War

Nakba Day Border Incidents-on May 15 and June 5, 2011, Palestinian demonstrators demostrated on the Syrian-Israeli border, and attempted to cross the border into Israel. Israeli security forces opened fire, killing several of the protestors. Syria claimed up to 23 were killed and hundreds wounded in the June 5 incident. Israel accused Syria of planning and instigating the incident to draw attention away from Syria's own internal uprising.

Golan Heights Tensions (2012)--With the increasing violence of the Syrian Civil War, The appearance on November 3, 2012, of three Syrian tanks in the demilitarized zone near the UNDOF buffer in violation of the cease-fire agreement raised tensions.

Israeli-Syrian Fighting Along Golan Border (2012)

    November 11, 2012, in the midst of a battle between Syrian government forces and rebels, the Syrian army fired a mortar shell that landed near an Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) outpost at Tel Hazeka in the Golan Heights. The Israeli forces then fired back into Syrian territory. This marks the first time since the conclusion of the 1973 Yom Kippu/Ramadan War that Israel has fire into Syria from their positions in the Golan Heights.

    November 12, 2012-- In response to another artillery round from Syria which landed near an Israeli post, Israeli tanks fired back, making a direct hit on the Syrian artillery units that fired into Israeli--held Golan territory.

    January 30, 2013--Israel launched air strikes into Syrian territory. Among the targets were a convoy believed to be transferring arms from Syria to Hezbollah, and Scientific Studies and Research Center in Jamarya northwest of Damascus, which was believed to be a biological weapons research center. The Israeli planes entered Syrian airspace near Mt. Hermon, flying in low at dawn to avoid radar detection.

Sources and Links:

    http://world.time.com/2013/02/01/the-fallout-from-the-air-raid-on-syria-why-israel-is-concerned/#ixzz2JlofwUYJ""

So Syria is responsible for:-

One demonstration in which only Syrian demonstrators were killed and wounded.

Three Syrian tanks in the de-militarised zone.

One mortar shell and one artillery round landing in the Golan Heights (which, since they took place during the current internal civil war in Syria, may well have been accidental).

April, 2010, Israeli sources indicating that Syria was transferring powerful Scud missiles to the Hezbollah Islamist militia in Lebanon (even if you believe in the honesty of those sources, "indicating" hardly implies certainty).

January 30, 2013 a convoy believed to be transferring arms from Syria to Hezbollah, and Scientific Studies and Research Center in Jamarya northwest of Damascus, which was believed to be a biological weapons research center (again "believed" to be hardly implies certainty. Geedubyah "believed" that Saddam had WMDs.)

Moving on, in the same period Israel is responsible for:-

Invading Lebanon and routing forces from Syria, which were defending that country, with devastating effects on the Lebanese infrastructure.

Air Strike on Syria (October, 2003)-- Israeli warplanes hit the Syrian village of Ain al-Saheb, near Damascus (no reason given for that one).

Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance (presumably somebody leaked that story, maybe Israeli intelligence, d'ye think?).

The above is the historical record of interaction between Israel and Syria since 1973, 40 years ago.

Where are the thousands of artillery shells fired into Israel?

Where is the State of declared war?

Based on what has actually happened, rather than on Keith's flights of Pro Israel fancy, which of the two looks more like the aggressor?

It's a simple question.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:06 AM

Er, I just wondered if you two believe that the airstrike was justified.
That is the subject.
I gave my opinion, here and on the Syrian thread.

I did not realise it was so difficult for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:25 AM

"The state of human rights in Syria has long been the subject of harsh criticism from global organizations.[85] The country was under emergency rule from 1963 until 2011, effectively granting security forces sweeping powers of arrest and detention.[86] The Syrian government has justified this by pointing to the fact that the country has been in a continuous state of war with Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 07:57 AM

"The Syrian government has justified this by pointing to the fact that the country has been in a continuous state of war with Israel."


But Keith, many here think it is wrong for Jews to defend themselves. We are supposed to go quietly to the gas chambers without any fuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:59 AM

What is the justification for the continuous building of settlements and displacement of the original inhabitants?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

"What is the justification for the continuous building of settlements and displacement of the original inhabitants?"

You mean like what the British did in North America?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:23 AM

Are you talking about the removal of the Jewish settlements after 1948, when the West Bank was under Jordanian control?

Check the 1940 vs 1950 figures for Jewish settlements on the West bank, please. There are far more Moslems in Israel NOW than there are Jews left in Arab nations. I guess the removal of the Jews was OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:28 AM

In addition, the Arab Moslems were given over 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory back in about 1923- proportionate to their share of the population, and Jews were NOT allowed to settle or own any part of that ARAB HOMELAND. So how much of the remaining 32% will you allow the Jews to settle in?

I grew up with friends who are of Palestinian descent, from Ramallah. Originally one of the 6 families that founded that town- THEY were driven out in 1948 by the Moslems, as they are Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:51 AM

We are supposed to go quietly to the gas chambers without any fuss.

Do you ALWAYS have to be an ass, Beardie?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:46 AM

Greg, of course it makes sense! and to say it has no author is silly.It didn't think itself up!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM

""But Keith, many here think it is wrong for Jews to defend themselves. We are supposed to go quietly to the gas chambers without any fuss.""

If you take a leaf out of Israel's book, provoke somebody until he punches you on the nose, then take out a gun and shoot him, that cannot be described, by any stretch of the imagination, as self defence.

Given the number of years that Israel has been doing exactly that, it seems strange that its apologists in the US and here still leap blindly to its defence, no matter how low it sinks.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 01:30 PM

Given the number of rockets Hezboallah has sent into Israel in the past, and the UN STATEMENT that all nations should prevent a resupply of those rockets, and the failure of most nations to do so, I think Israel is within it's rights to eliminate those ILLEGAL BY UN RESOLUTION rockets BEFORE they are launched at Israel.

You got a problem with that? Then YOU keep Hezboallah from getting them- which I notice no-one else is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:13 PM

""You seem to be OK with the UN ban, and OK about someone enforcing it, as long as it is not Israel.""
Right?
Presumably because everything Israel does is automatically wrong.
Right?

WRONG,..TWICE! I am OK about any country enforcing a UN resolution, which has been formally tasked by the UN so to do, including Israel, though I do feel the UN would be unwise to task Israel in this instance, given their relationship with their neighbours (think red rags and bulls).

I am against the region's most troublesome and destabilising regime going off and doing its own thing, especially because they are winding up the equally intransigent Iranians.

If Israel continue metaphorically spitting in the eyes of their none too friendly neighbours, a bus load of tourists will pale into insignificance compared to what will eventually happen, not only in the Middle East, but in London and New York as well.

And please don't tell me that you believe Syria is Hezbollah's only source of weaponry.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:29 PM

""You mean like what the British did in North America?""

Dumb choice of analogy Bobad, since the British were out of North America long before the westward expansion and the genocide that followed.

Do some research.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:57 PM

"many here think it is wrong for Jews to defend themselves."
Out of curiosity - does anybody here believe that Israel played no part in the Sabra and Shatila massacres, and if they accept that they did, how does the cold-blooded massacre of 3,000 refugees fit into the grand plan of "defending themselves"?
Just curious.
Jim Carroll

"In working on this case, the prosecution believes that it has discovered shocking new evidence of Israel's involvement.
The evidence centres on the Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium– the "Cite Sportif". Only two miles from Beirut airport, the damaged stadium was a natural holding centre for prisoners. It had been an ammunition dump for Yasser Arafat's PLO and repeatedly bombed by Israeli jets during the 1982 siege of Beirut so that its giant, smashed exterior looked like a nightmare denture. The Palestinians had earlier mined its cavernous interior, but its vast, underground storage space and athletics changing-rooms remained intact. It was a familiar landmark to all of us who lived in Beirut. At mid-morning on 18 September 1982–about the time Sana Sersawi says she was brought to the stadium–I saw hundreds of Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners, probably well over 1,000, sitting in its gloomy, dark interior, squatting in the dust, watched over by Israeli soldiers and plain-clothes Shin Beth (Israeli secret service) agents and men who I suspected were Lebanese collaborators. The men sat in silence, obviously in fear. From time to time, I noted, a few were taken away. They were put into Israeli army trucks or jeeps or Phalangist vehicles–for further "interrogation".
Nor did I doubt this. A few hundred metres away, inside the Sabra and Chatila Palestinian refugee camps, up to 600 massacre victims rotted in the sun, the stench of decomposition drifting over the prisoners and their captors alike. It was suffocatingly hot. Loren Jenkins of The Washington Post, Paul Eedle of Reuters and I had only got into the cells because the Israelis assumed–given our Western appearance–that we must have been members of Shin Beth. Many of the prisoners had their heads bowed. But Israel's Phalangist militiamen–still raging at the murder of their leader and president elect Bashir Gemayel–had been withdrawn from the camps, their slaughter over, and at least the Israeli army was now in charge. So what did these men have to fear?
Looking back–and listening to Sana Sersawi today–I shudder now at our innocence. My notes of the time, subsequently written into a book about Israel's 1982 invasion and its war with the PLO, contain some ominous clues. We found a Lebanese employee of Reuters, Abdullah Mattar, among the prisoners and obtained his release, Paul leading him away with his arm around the man's shoulders. "They take us away, one by one, for interrogation," one of the prisoners muttered to me. "They are Haddad [Christian militia] men. Usually they bring the people back after interrogation, but not always. Sometimes the people do not return them." Then an Israeli officer ordered me to leave. Why couldn't the prisoners talk to me, I asked? "They can talk if they want," he replied. "But they have nothing to say."
All the Israelis knew what had happened inside the camps. The smell of the corpses was now overpowering. Outside, a Phalangist jeep with the words "Military Police" painted on it–if so exotic an institution could be associated with this gang of murderers–drove by. A few television crews had turned up. One filmed the Lebanese Christian militiamen outside the Cite Sportif. He also filmed a woman pleading to an Israeli army colonel called "Yahya" for the release of her husband. (The colonel has now been positively identified by The Independent. Today, he is a general in the Israeli army.)
Along the main road opposite the stadium there was a line of Israeli Merkava tanks, their crews sitting on the turrets, smoking, watching the men being led from the stadium in ones or twos, some being set free, others being led away by Shin Beth men or by Lebanese men in drab khaki overalls. All these soldiers knew what had happened inside the camps. One of the members of the tank crews, Lt Avi Grabovsky–he was later to testify to the Israeli Kahan commission–had even witnessed the murder of several civilians the previous day and had been told not to "interfere".
And in the days that followed, strange reports reached us. A girl had been dragged from a car in Damour by Phalangist militiamen and taken away, despite her appeals to a nearby Israeli soldier. Then the cleaning lady of a Lebanese woman who worked for a US television chain complained bitterly that Israelis had arrested her husband. He was never seen again. There were other vague rumours of "disappeared" people."
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:16 PM

"Dumb choice of analogy Bobad, since the British were out of North America long before the westward expansion and the genocide that followed."

Gee DonT, that's odd because where I live the majority of the local population are descended from United Empire Loyalists and any remnants of the original inhabitants have long been relegated to reservations. Perhaps the history you learned was skewed as is usually the case with the conqueror.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:20 PM

Jim, this is about the recent airstrike!!
First you want to go over yet again the endless arguments about settlements, and now you go back 40 years!
does anybody here believe that Israel played no part in the Sabra and Shatila massacres,
Yes. Me.
It was done by Lebanese militias, unless you mean the massacres there during the civil war.

So Don, you do not mind if the UN ban against weapons for Hezbollah is flouted if only Israel can enforce it.
Why?
Surely the important thing for the poor people of that region is that the weapons are stopped.
(They also get arms from Iran)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:42 PM

The Holocaust took place 60 odd years ago yet your frinds and fellow holocaust (with a small "h") at Shatila and Sabra} deniers still crouch behind 6,000,000 corpses in defence of Israeli atrocities and war/peace crimes against non-combatents.
I was not, and will not address you - LAST TIME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:02 PM

Yes, Keith, the UN has officially condemned Israel for it's obscene actions toward the Palestinians. What you are saying is patently incorrect. The rest of the world other than the U.S. and a few other minor countries have condemned Israel.

Israeli deniers are shouting at the top of their lungs but their protestations are meaningless. In the meantime, Israel is provoking a potential third world war.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:10 PM

The opening post is an outright lie. WTF did y'all think the thread would go?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: pdq
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:17 PM

A wiser man than most Mudcatters said (paraphrase)...

"If the Arabs stop fighting Israel, we will have peace".

"If the Israelis stop fighting the Arabs, we will be anihilated".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:19 PM

"Both the United Nations and Russia have condemned Israel for the bombing of Syria and Lebanon, hoping that Israel will be forced to appear at the International World Court."

That is the opening post, and it's bullshit!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:23 PM

and to say it has no author is silly.

OK then, kendall: a simple question; who is the author of this supposed quotation. Plase supply documentation.

I'll still go with John Birch, unless you can supply facts to prove otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:59 PM

This is the quote I believe you were referencing pdq:

"If Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah were to lay down arms, there would be no more fighting and no more dying.

If Israel were to lay down arms, there would be no more Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 07:13 PM

Andrew Jackson in his Farewell address said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". March 4, 1837.
Way before John Birch.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:14 PM

Bottom line???

The US needs to push as hard as it can to bringing about a settlement...

This one single issue is the poster-boy issue behind radicalization in North Africa, the Middle east and Indonesia...

If we are going to move forward this is 1st base...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:33 PM

It is nothing to do with any imagined vendetta Jim.
I am just interested in your view of the air strike to prevent the arms shipment.

Israel is shit-scared that Hezbollah are getting as many arms out of Syria as they can before the regime falls. So Israel attacks sovereign territory which it has, at present, no military engagement with.

Well Keith. Let's imagine for a minute that the Palestinians are well-armed, and are involved in bombing convoys in international waters carrying arms to Israel, or, worse, are somehow diverting Yankee aid so that Israel can't use it to make weapons. Legitimate? You'd better answer yes, Keith. Don't want double standards, do we?

If you defend the attacks on arms shipments from Syria, you have to defend all manner of other pre-emptive attacks on sovereign territory, not just the ones that favour the side you're on. Agreed? 9-11?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:31 PM

I feel for the people of both Israel and Palestine who want a solution, and for their families overseas. I hope there is movement towards a safe and equitable solution for all. When military leaders are in control on both sides, then military responses will continue. It's a catch 22.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:42 AM

False comparison Steve.
Hezbollah are vicious, murdering, indiscriminating terrorists.
Whatever you think of Israel, it is a recognised state and UN member, like Syria.

There is no UN ban on delivering weapons to Syria.
No arms shipment to Syria has been stopped by military means, (though Britain to its credit stopped a shipload of helicopter gunships by withdrawing its insurance).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:55 AM

If Israel were to lay down arms, there would be no more Israel."

And that is what the Israel haters hope for, in Mid East and Mudcat.
It would bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel, but as Bruce says, they can not be expected to go meekly into the fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 06:40 AM

""So Don, you do not mind if the UN ban against weapons for Hezbollah is flouted if only Israel can enforce it.
Why?
Surely the important thing for the poor people of that region is that the weapons are stopped.
(They also get arms from Iran)""

Once again you are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Are you a halfwit?

I said I had "NO OBJECTION TO ANY COUNTRY WHICH WAS FORMALLY TASKED BY THE UN, INCLUDING ISRAEL!"   Can you hear me now?

I further commented that I think the UN would be unwise to task Israel with that job, given their relationship with their neighbours.

Are you telling me that this is an unreasonable comment, when they are at loggerheads with every other state in the region?

All of which is immaterial, since they, with their usual arrogance, went ahead and did it, knowing that any active response by their neighbours willonly result in the destruction of those neighbours and more territory for the region's only nuclear power.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 06:45 AM


Are you telling me that this is an unreasonable comment, when they are at loggerheads with every other state in the region?

Yes, because the alternative is that Hezbollah gets the weapons and the region is destabilised bringing more and worse conflict, death, destruction and suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:23 AM

"Some of those who would like top "bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel".
It is lying and deeply offensive slander to suggest that anybody on Mudcat wants or has suggested the destruction of Israel - anybody with a modicum of principle would either produce proof or withdraw such a cowardly and unwarranted suggestion - won't happen here of course.
Some others who fall into that category.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/jew2jew.html
"Are you a halfwit?"
Bit of an over-estimation don't you think Don?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:31 AM

Hezbollah are vicious, murdering, indiscriminating terrorists.

Wrong, Keith. They are an integral part of the government in Lebanon. They are involved in infrastructure development and they run hospitals, schools and agricultural training institutions, and they enjoy the support of a large proportion of the Lebanese population. Your ignorant, dismissive, demonising characterisation of Hezbollah is absolutely typical of the attitude that is forever going to prevent peace from taking over the region.

wiki:

An IRIN news report of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs noted:
"Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings – it also boasts an extensive social development program. Hezbollah currently operates at least four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance program. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members."
According to CNN, "Hezbollah did everything that a government should do, from collecting the garbage to running hospitals and repairing schools." In July 2006, during the war with Israel, when there was no running water in Beirut, Hezbollah was arranging supplies around the city. Lebanese Shiites "see Hezbollah as a political movement and a social service provider as much as it is a militia."

I suppose that, if you were to ask the people in southern Lebanon whose kids have had their legs and feet blown off by some of the hundreds of thousands of deadly cluster bomblets (US made) left there in their fields by Israel, it wouldn't be Hezbollah they'd be calling vicious, murdering, undiscriminating terrorists. Though I fully expect that you'll come up with some way of blaming them for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM

Israel and others countries have accused Iran and Hezbollah of carrying out attacks on Israeli and Jewish targets around the world. Hezbollah has denied involvement in some and not commented on others.

Since 1994 attacks alleged to have been by hezbollah:-

""2008: Azerbaijan officials say they foiled a plot to explode car bombs near the Israeli Embassy in retaliation for the killing in Syria of a top commander in Hezbollah. Two Lebanese men are later convicted in Baku for the bombing attempt.""

Two convicted Lebanese suggests that this is a Hezbollah action.

""Nov. 2011 and Jan. 2012: A Swedish-Lebanese man is accused of planning attacks on Israeli citizens in Cyprus in a case that Israel has said bears similarities to the Bulgaria attack. Israel says the accused was a Hezbollah operative who used the same method as the Burgas suicide bomber, but offered no evidence.""

He was "accused of planning". "Israel said he was a Hezbollah operative, but offered no evidence." Extremely shaky claim with little, if any, credibility.

""February 13, 2012: A bomb attached to an Israeli diplomat's car in India blows up, injuring four people, while a similar bomb is found in Georgia and safely defused. The attacks appear to mirror recent killings of Iranian nuclear scientists that Iran blamed on Israel.""

Where is the Hezbollah connection?

""February 14, 2012: In Thailand, an Iranian man carrying grenades blows off his own legs and wounds four civilians after an earlier blast shook his house in Bangkok. Thai police detain three men they say were planning to attack Israeli diplomats.""

Again, where is the Hezbollah connection?

""July 18, 2012: A bomb explodes in a tourist bus in the Bulgarian resort town of Burgas, killing five Israelis, their Bulgarian driver and the bomber. Bulgarian investigators blame Hezbollah and say the plotters included a Canadian and an Australian. They find no links to Iran.""

Hezbollah has flatly denied involvement which, of course, doesn't mean much, but their involvement is by no means certain.

Five incidents in nineteen years which, when they are examined, lead to what conclusion?

Two have no discernible connection with Hezbollah
One has a shaky connection with no evidential back up.
One, the latest, is flatly denied, but may be a Hezbollah act.
One, the earliest, most likely (but not certainly) a Hezbollah act.

They must certainly be terrifying the Israelis.

You know Keith, I would have thought by now that you would do a little research beyond Israel's Department of Propaganda.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:52 AM

They engage in indiscriminate acts of terror.
That makes them terrorists.
They may do some non-terror related activities, and they might be nice to their mums, but they are still terrorists.

Jim, I will do as you ask and ignore you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:53 AM

Well, steve, if being "an integral part of the government" is the requirement for NOT being a terrorist, Israel, BEING the government, cannot be terrorist, either. They provide all that you have listed, and more.- SO STOP SAYING THEY ARE TERRORISTS

Unless you demand different standards for Jews...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:54 AM

That was 100!

Before you ask Keith, the source of that information was ABC News and Associated Press.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:55 AM

"During the Second Lebanon War of summer 2006, Hezbollah achieved for the first time, strategic terror effects with tactical rockets - with thousands of WW2 era Katyusha rockets it rained down on northern Israel. The terrorist army had stockpiled over 14,000 short- and medium-range rockets in calibers between 100mm to 302mm weapons. Originally designed as area-suppression and psychological weapons to support tactical assaults, these rockets gained a new interest as terror weapons with strategic resonance, reaching their climax with hundreds fired daily on targets in northern Israel for nearly five weeks. The larger caliber rockets, mainly Syrian origin 302mm (designated Khaibar-1 by Hezbollah) and Iranian Fajr-3, were used to strike deep into Israel"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

""They engage in indiscriminate acts of terror.
That makes them terrorists.""

Not according to my earlier post which shows maybe (only maybe) one act of terrorism in nineteen years, and that one five years ago.

I don't think they are too good at this.....What d'you reckon?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

"Whether the Islamic Jihad Organization (IJO) was a nom de guerre used by Hezbollah or a separate organization, is disputed.
Hezbollah leaders reportedly admitted their involvement in IJO's attacks and the nominal nature of "Islamic Jihad" – that it was merely a "telephone organization,"[37][38] and[39] whose name was "used by those involved to disguise their true identity."[40][41][42][43][44]
A 2003 decision by an American court found IJO was the name used by Hezbollah for its attacks in Lebanon, and parts of the Middle East, and Europe.[45] Hezbollah also used another name, Islamic Resistance, or al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya, for its attacks against Israel.[46]
The names Islamic Jihad Organization, Organization of the Oppressed on Earth and the Revolutionary Justice Organization are considered to be synonymous with Hezbollah by the United States,[47] Israel,[48] and Canada.[49]"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:01 AM

The United States, the Netherlands, Bahrain, Egypt, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada and Israel classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization,

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:03 AM

""During the Second Lebanon War of summer 2006, Hezbollah achieved for the first time, strategic terror effects with tactical rockets - with thousands of WW2 era Katyusha rockets it rained down on northern Israel.""

I think the clue is in the name, don't you?

Second Lebanon War.

If they are part of the Lebanese government, a war removes the terrorist tag. What were the Israelis doing to Lebanon at the time?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:03 AM

"SO STOP SAYING THEY ARE TERRORISTS"
If they carry out assassinations, kidnappings, guerrilla attacks on other states, attempts to starve, facilitate the massacre of thousands of refugees of refugees - they can reasonably referred to as "a terrorist state".
Israel has done all that and more in spades, so the cap seems to fit perfectly.
Don't suppose you'd like to answer my question on Sabra/Shatila and how it merits "self defence" - or not maybe?
"Jim, I will do as you ask and ignore you."
Wasn't talking to you Keith - just generally commenting on your 'Strangelove like' utterances and your deep insults aimed at members of this forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM

Fine, Jim. Then Steve is incorrect about Hezboallah, as well. You can pick one or the other, not both.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:17 AM

Don, they were not acts of war. They were war crimes.Terrorism.
The rockets were indiscriminate.

I have shown you that it is not just us saying they are terrorists.
It is because they are terrorists that UN imposed the weapons ban, and despite the thread title, they have expressed no reservation at all about Israel's action.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

"Fine, Jim. Then Steve is incorrect about Hezboallah,"
Sorry - don't follow; are you saying the massacre of 3,000 was fine, or were you really avoiding my question on Shatila and Sabra.?
Are you suggesting that Israel hasn't done the things I have described or are you saying tit-for-tat terrorism is acceptable?
Mine was a rhetorical question anyway - I don't expect honesty and rationale from fanatics who crouch behind 300,000,000 murder victims to defend state terrorism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:38 AM

Just in case you've forgotten my question - how can the massacre of 3,000 non-combatant refugees possibly be described as "self-defence"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

None of the above- have you stopped beating your wife, yet?

I stated ONLY that if Steve is right, and Hezboallah is NOT a terrorist organization because of its governmental functions, than Israel cannot be terrorist: YOU CANNOT apply one set of rules to one side, and a different set to the other side.


As for those massacres. I think that there have been threads devoted to them- Why do you feel that this thread should be hijacked for your own purposes?

Will you allow the discussion f the removal of all Jews from the Arab lands in 1948? What about the massacres in the 1920"s? How about the fact the Arab Palestinian state was formed in 1923, and given lag proportional to the Arab population, where Jews were not allowed to settle or own property? HOW MUCH OF MANDATE PALESTINE should Moslims be given?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM

Well, steve, if being "an integral part of the government" is the requirement for NOT being a terrorist, Israel, BEING the government, cannot be terrorist, either.

Tiresome comment. Like-with-like would be to compare Hezbollah with an Israeli party, Likud, let's say, which equally don't work too well. Hezbollah started its life as a resistance movement, and, in many respects, that's what it still is. There is not a movement in Israel to compare. Israel doesn't need a clandestinely-armed resistance movement. It has one of the biggest armies on earth, bankrolled openly by Washington. How horrid of Hezbollah to be sneaky enough to have to rely on smuggled weapons! That aside, you appear to be unconsciously condoning any act by a country just because "it's too big to be a terrorist". To you, it appears, being big excuses from all kinds of horrid behaviour. Let's not forget the repeated incursions into neighbouring sovereign territories that have resulted in the indiscriminate (yes, Keith) slaughter of civilians. Thousands killed in those two refugee camps. Refugee camps. Shall I say it again? Hundreds of maimed children thanks to cluster bomblets left all over the Lebanon countryside. Children. Shall I say it again? Families and their homes destroyed by bulldozers and helicopter gunships in Gaza. Families. Shall I say it again? I don't care whether you call those terrorist acts or not. Ask those families, refugees and kids whether they had their lives destroyed by terrorists and they'll tell you they don't give a damn. It's a bloody word, that's all. Let's talk right or wrong instead. OK. Now that's sorted, lets discuss whether those IDF actions were right or wrong (and yes, I do know what happened in Sabra and Shatila).

Unless you demand different standards for Jews...

If that is a puerile attempt to goad me into antisemitic remarks, it won't work. You need to sort yourself out, mate. Sounds to me like you're the racist round here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM

Actually, what Andy Jackson said was:

"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:08 AM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:18 AM

"Why do you feel that this thread should be hijacked for your own purposes? "
Because you and your buddies raised the question of self defence - why else?
Terror tactics have been a part of this conflict since before the state was established, by all sides - it is one of the unfortunate aspects of war; but the deliberate massacre of 3,000 human beings for no other reason than they felt like it (it would appear) takes barbarity to a new level.
Yes, Shatila/Sabra has been discussed before, but never explained by apologists for Israeli terrorism, only denied - just as the Holocaust was and still is denied by anti-Semites - Tweedledum - Tweedledee.
Is is not a hijacking - it is an essential part of understanding the Israeli regime's mindset.
I find your apparent insistence that whatever Israel can be justified in the name of "self defence" somewhat sickening in the light of their behaviour towards civilians - don't suppose for one minute that you agree!
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 10:21 AM

the indiscriminate (yes, Keith) slaughter of civilians.

You need to justify that outrageous accusation.

The massacres you refer to were committed by Lebanese militia, and later ones by Arab factions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 10:36 AM

The destruction of a refugee camp full of innocent civilians is about as indiscriminate as it gets, Keith. And stop trying to rewrite history. Even Israel knows that it was responsible for what happened. The IDF lit up the area with flares to assist the killers and stood back while they got on with it. Ariel Sharon had to accept personal responsibility and had to resign (that's what happens to Israeli war criminals, I guess, and they can always come back later). As for "Arab factions" bulldozing Gaza houses and destroying them with helicopter gunships, well that's news to me, Keith. Gosh, Hamas were better equipped than I thought! And the bomblets left in southern Lebanon were American-made and were dropped there by the IDF. "Arab factions", eh? Are you feeling OK, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:07 AM

""The rockets were indiscriminate.""

They were also seven years ago, since when there are no records of any direct attacks by them on Israel, just five incidents of which only one is reasonably (though by no means certainly) attributable to Hezbollah.

""The conflict began when militants from the group Hezbollah fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence. The ambush left three soldiers dead. Two additional soldiers, believed to have been killed outright or mortally wounded, were taken by Hezbollah to Lebanon. Five more were killed in a failed rescue attempt. Israel responded with airstrikes and artillery fire on targets in Lebanon that damaged Lebanese civilian infrastructure, including Beirut's Rafic Hariri International Airport, an air and naval blockade, and a ground invasion of southern Lebanon. Hezbollah then launched more rockets into northern Israel and engaged the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in guerrilla warfare from hardened positions.

The conflict is believed to have killed at least 1,191–1,300 Lebanese people, and 165 Israelis. It severely damaged Lebanese civil infrastructure, and displaced approximately one million Lebanese and 300,000–500,000 Israelis. After the ceasefire, some parts of southern Lebanon remained uninhabitable due to Israeli unexploded cluster bomblets.

On 11 August 2006, the United Nations Security Council unanimously approved UN Resolution 1701 in an effort to end the hostilities. The resolution, which was approved by both Lebanese and Israeli governments the following days, called for disarmament of Hezbollah, for withdrawal of Israel from Lebanon, and for the deployment of Lebanese soldiers and an enlarged United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) in the south. UNIFIL was given an expanded mandate, including the ability to use force to ensure that their area of operations wasn't used for hostile activities, and to resist attempts by force to prevent them from discharging their duties. The Lebanese army began deploying in southern Lebanon on 17 August 2006. The blockade was lifted on 8 September 2006. On 1 October 2006, most Israeli troops withdrew from Lebanon, though the last of the troops continued to occupy the border-straddling village of Ghajar. In the time since the enactment of UNSCR 1701 both the Lebanese government and UNIFIL have stated that they will not disarm Hezbollah.""

It certainly doesn't sound as one sided as you would have us believe Keith.

The attempt to obtain Israeli prisoners to exchange for Lebanese captured by Israel mirrors exactly what Israel did on more than one occasion, notably in Gaza.

The response was, predictably, off the Richter Scale for violence and the Israelis seem to have been every bit as indiscriminate as Hezbollah, with airstrikes and artillery fire on targets in Lebanon that damaged Lebanese civilian infrastructure, including Beirut's Rafic Hariri International Airport, and after the ceasefire, some parts of southern Lebanon rendered uninhabitable due to Israeli unexploded cluster bomblets.

Call it what you like, it's still out and out warfare involving once again Israel recording 1191 - 1300 Lebanese kills for the loss of 165, between seven and eight to one.

Now, the big question!

If Hezbollah are the threat that you say they are (in the present, rather than seven years ago), why do you suppose that UNIFIL has declined to carry out the UNSCR 1701 instruction to disarm them, and why do the Lebanese government concur?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:22 AM

Another pointless argument.It's all been said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:27 AM

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - A research center that Syria said had been hit by an Israeli air strike last week appears to have remained unscathed in the attack, according to satellite images broadcast by Israeli television on Wednesday.
Diplomats, Syrian rebels and security sources said Israeli jets had bombed a convoy near the Lebanese border last week, apparently hitting weapons destined for the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah, which fought a 34-day war with Israel in 2006.
Syria denied the assertions, saying the target was the Jamraya military research complex on the northwestern fringes of Damascus, 8 miles from the border.
Some of the diplomats and security sources said the apparently contradictory accounts might refer to the same incident, given Jamraya's proximity to the border.
Israel's Channel 2 News broadcast what it said were satellite images of the complex, taken eight months before the attack and a few days after it.
The latter showed an apparently unscathed building, which Channel 2 said was the research center, next to a scorched and blackened road and parking lot, where it said the arms convoy was hit.
Channel 2 said the second image had been taken by DigitalGlobe, a public company based in the United States. A spokesperson for DigitalGlobe contacted by Reuters confirmed the authenticity of the image and said it had been taken on February 4.
Syrian television had broadcast what it said was footage from the Jamraya base showing extensive damage to buildings and several heavy military vehicles that appeared capable of carrying missiles.
At least one vehicle, with light desert khaki markings, was equipped with what looked like a satellite dish.
Several burnt-out cars and lorries, including one with a large hole smashed through the roof of the driver's cabin, could also be seen in the footage, as well as the badly damaged interior of an office.
Israel has maintained official silence last week's raid, but on Sunday Defence Minister Ehud Barak appeared to acknowledge that Israel had carried out the strike.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM

""Another pointless argument.It's all been said.""

Exactly the response to gladden Israeli hearts as they go on about their daily business of bullying their neighbours, secure behind Uncle Sam's coat tails.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:15 PM

To recap, a vicious, evil regime tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.

You can claim Israel had some responsibility as the occupying power, but the 1982 massacres were committed by local militia.
Four years later there were more massacres when the Palestinian refugee camps were besieged by the Shi'ite Amal.
There was not an Israeli within 100 miles.

Jim has raised the issue over and over when he is losing an argument, but the facts are against him and over 30 years later there is nothing new to add.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:30 PM

More Syrians have been killed in the last year BY SYRIA than the total number of Palestinians killed by Israel in the last 65 years.

More IRANIANS were killed by the IRANIAN government in the year after removing the Shah than had been killed by the Shah during his entire reign.




I don't think that the problem in that region is Israel- If we want to REDUCE the death toll, we would have to have Israel control the entire region. They are killing themselves far more than Israel is killing them. Would Jim like to discuss the number of Palestinans killed by Palestinians when Hamas took control of Gaza, in comparison to the number killed by Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:34 PM

To recap, a vicious, evil regime tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.

The fact remains that Israel attacked a target in someone else's sovereign territory, a country which is not currently engaged in active hostilities with Israel. Yes, it goes on, but kindly do not continue to assert some moral superiority for Israel when it carries out the very actions you so loudly condemn when carried out by Hezbollah or Hamas. I bet you just love those yankee drone attacks in Pakistan too, don't you, Keith? Indiscriminate killing again and all that?

You can claim Israel had some responsibility as the occupying power, but the 1982 massacres were committed by local militia.

Oh no you don't! Israel had responsibility because the Israeli army was present at the camps, illuminated the camps so that the killers could see what they were doing and then stood by while the horror was perpetrated. And there are plenty of witness accounts that the killers were virtually goaded by Israelis to do what they did. Control of the situation was firmly in Israel's hands. Bang to rights, as they say.

Four years later there were more massacres when the Palestinian refugee camps were besieged by the Shi'ite Amal.
There was not an Israeli within 100 miles.

And now who's frantically trying to change the subject?

Jim has raised the issue over and over when he is losing an argument, but the facts are against him and over 30 years later there is nothing new to add.

There's always something to add when someone is trying to rewrite history, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 03:16 PM

Fair point Steve.
Correction.
To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 03:23 PM

Israel when it carries out the very actions you so loudly condemn when carried out by Hezbollah or Hamas
Not true Steve.
Israel does not target civilians or attack indiscriminately as both Hamas and Hezbollah do.

Israel had responsibility because the Israeli army was present at the camps, illuminated the camps so that the killers could see what they were doing and then stood by while the horror was perpetrated.

You need light to identify enemy positions.
You do not need light to carry out indiscriminate murder in a crowded camp.
The Israelis stepped in and stopped the massacre.

And there are plenty of witness accounts that the killers were virtually goaded by Israelis to do what they did.
No, there are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 03:36 PM

Don, I'm not such an egotist to think what I think means shit to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:57 PM

Should we hold all countries to the exact/ame standard of direct and indirect accountability, and responsibility, for civilian killings/massacres (whether on a battlefield, or otherwise)?

If so, I suspect there are a big list of countries and citizens (western and otherwise) that have a lot of historic explaining to do and responsibility to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 05:55 PM

Whatever.

Accuracy? Whatever.

Fact? Whatever.

The spirit that made Amerika great.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:15 PM

Congratulations for penning the most ludicrous, revisionist, dishonest post I've seen in years, Keith. You must take us all for idiots. The facts of the refugee camp massacres are out there, have been for almost 30 years and have been acknowledged even by Israel. Jesus, man, you're even in danger of embarrassing Bibi here. As for Israel not targeting civilians, well that's bloody rich that is. Civilians have been by far the biggest casualties of every one of Israel's aggressions over the decades. They don't give a damn about civilians, that much is clear. They get round it every single time by claiming that civilians are deliberately put in harm's way. A routine, demonising claim in all wars by all western powers. Never with evidence in support, of course. You'll be telling me next that demolishing whole villages with helicopter gunships (once the bulldozers have started things off) is not targeting civilians. You'd be a bloody good laugh, Keith, if you weren't so tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:40 PM

Interesting Hardtalk on the Beeb news channel tonight, in which Stephen Sackur interrogated Khaled Meshaal for half an hour (it will be on iPlayer soon). There was much talk of getting Israel to shift its position, an open appeal to Obama, regret at the rift between Hamas and Syria (you could hardly disagree) and the potential rift with Iran, and plenty of hopeful-sounding talk of reconciliation with Fatah. What was absent was any talk of wiping Israel off the map.

Yeah, yeah, I know. But don't spout off about it until you've watched it, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:12 AM

demolishing whole villages with helicopter gunships (once the bulldozers have started things off)

Try not to be so gullible Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:41 AM

I see Brucie is not going to respond to this atrocity and our other resident fanatic is going to continue lying about Israel's facilitating it and standing by while 3,000 civilians were slaughtered.
So here's the situation.
"It would bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel,"
The massacre is evidence, if evidence were needed, that it is the Israelis who would carry out the mass slaughter of civilians - they have already done so - that is why it is relevant to this discussion.
They have shown themselves well capable of the slaughter of thousands of unarmed men women and children.
Even as far back as the departure of the British, they were slaughtering unarmed villagers by hurling grenades into occupied houses.
They have deliberately targeted hospitals and schools, using the excuse that resistance fighters were sheltering there.
They have bombed occupied apartment blocks using the excuse that resistance fighters were living there.
They have used chemical weapons on civilians (RECENTLY ADDING SKUNK TO THEIR CHEMICAL ARMOURY).
They have destroyed whole streets of civilian homes, leaving streetfuls of families homeless.
They have attempted to starve and deprive an entire community into submission by banning or delaying essential goods, including medicines.
They have murdered unarmed aid workers who have attempted to break their blockade.
And the beat goes on, and on, and on......
In all of this, they have been protected by the US and her nodding-dog supporters with UN vetos that pale those of Russia and China in support of Syria, into insignificance.
Whatever we might think of Hezboallah, they would be totally insane to surrender to these monsters.
"You need light to identify enemy positions."
Ah - at last it's been said - unarmed refugees are to be considered "enemies" and worthy of slaughter - that's cleared that up.
This was not a fight - it was the cold-blooded massacre of unarmed men, women and children - no less.
At the very least, the Israelis supplied the transport for the actual killers, provided illumination for the killers to carry out the work, Gave them access to the camps and stood by and watched as the atrocities took place.
Destroyed the bulk of the evidence after the slaughter.
They later put themselves on trial and found themselves not guilty!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 04:00 AM

They have shown themselves well capable of the slaughter of thousands of unarmed men women and children

You are blinded by hatred.
You will believe anything.

You do not need light to carry out indiscriminate murder in a crowded camp.
You do need it to identify military positions among the civilians.
Did you not know there were fighters based in the camps?
You do know that it is a built up urban area, not families huddled in tents?
No tents.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:15 AM

No comment needed
Jim Carroll

US GAVE ISRAEL GREEN LIGHT FOR SABRA, SHATILA GENOCIDE
Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:28PM GMT
Finian Cunningham
Yet not a single person has ever been prosecuted for the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila. As part of Lebanon's civil war settlement in 1990 an amnesty was afforded to all those who had participated in this and other atrocities. Some would later clear their consciences by confessing publicly to media and tribunals to the most barbaric acts of cruelty one can imagine."
This week sees the 30th anniversary of the single-worst atrocity during the more than six decades of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
For three days, between 15 and 18 September, up to 3,500 men, women and children were butchered in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps of West Beirut. Their mutilated, mangled bodies bulldozed into mass graves.
For three days, Lebanese Christian Phalangists under the command of intelligence chief Elie Hobeika returned over and over again to go on an orgy of systematic slaughter in the camps. The massacre would not have been possible only for the collaboration of Israel's Defence Forces, which had months earlier invaded Lebanon and taken control of the camps.
Sabra and Shatila were populated by destitute families of Palestinians that had fled from the pogroms in 1948 carried out by Israel's Haganah death squads. The refugee numbers also burgeoned with Lebanese Shia displaced from the civil war in their country that erupted in 1975.
The United Nations' General Assembly later condemned what happened at Sabra and Shatila as "an act of genocide". A UN commission of inquiry, headed up by Irish statesman Sean MacBride, concluded that the Israeli authorities and their forces were involved and responsible for the deaths. The then head of the IDF was Ariel Sharon who later would hold four ministerial posts before becoming Israeli Prime Minister from 2001 to 2006.
Yet not a single person has ever been prosecuted for the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila. As part of Lebanon's civil war settlement in 1990 an amnesty was afforded to all those who had participated in this and other atrocities. Some would later clear their consciences by confessing publicly to media and tribunals to the most barbaric acts of cruelty one can imagine.
Former Phalangist commander Hobeika was due to give evidence in a Belgian court, which had claimed international jurisdiction for crimes against humanity to prosecute the case. Ahead of the hearings, Hobeika had publicly stated that he was going to testify against Aerial Sharon to implicate him in the operation of the massacre. He never made it to the courtroom. He was assassinated in a car bomb in Beirut in January 2002. At least two other former Lebanese Phalangists who were similarly due to testify were also mysteriously killed. Eventually, the Belgian court was forced to drop the trial under pressure from Washington. Many believe that Israeli agents carried out the assassinations to spare Sharon international ignominy.
Despite the lack of criminal convictions, there is not a shadow of doubt that Israel has blood on its hands over Sabra and Shatila. The Lebanese militia recruited to do the dirty work were assembled by the Israeli Defence Forces at Beirut International Airport days before the mayhem was unleashed. The 1,5000 or so killers were armed by the Israelis and driven in IDF vehicles to the camps. The Israeli army had surrounded the site with armed guards and checkpoints to ensure that no-one escaped when the slaughter began. Indeed, some reports at the time claimed that Israeli soldiers ordered families trying to flee from the carnage back into camps to face their certain deaths.
Overlooking Sabra and Shatila was the seven-storey Kuwaiti embassy, which had been commandeered by the Israelis. From top floors, the Israeli and Phalangist commanders would have had a clear, uninterrupted view of the unfolding sickening spectacle. Not least because the Israeli forces would fire night flares over the camps as the death squads - fuelled with cocaine and alcohol courtesy of Israel - proceeded from hovel to hovel killing the inhabitants.
One Dutch nurse working in the camps for an international aid organization said that the area was as bright as day because of the constant barrage of flares.
From their vantage point, the Israeli commanders would have witnessed the most grotesque bloodletting carried out by their Phalangist fanatics against women and children. Yet the Israeli commanders did nothing to stop the slaughter. Why should they have? It was all evidently executed according to plan. Later, the Israelis claimed that they had instructed the militias to not injure civilians and to behave with discipline. That self-defence is beneath contempt.
The respected American human rights lawyer Franklin Lamb, based in Beirut, recalled what his late wife witnessed in the hours following the aftermath of Sabra and Shatila. Janet Lee Stevens was in Beirut working as a young journalist and was one of the first internationals on the scene. Here is just an excerpt of what she witnessed:
"I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles."
This week, only days before the 30th anniversary of Sabra and Shatila, Israel's current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was afforded the customary privilege of articulating his noxious views to the American people on various nationwide Sunday television channels. To be sure, Sabra and Shatila were not mentioned. No, instead Netanyahu was spilling his bile about Iran's alleged nuclear ambitions. He also called the worldwide Muslim demonstrations outside American embassies over the latest anti-Islam video "mob rule" and he compared the Iranian government to these "fanatics". In a leap of twisted logic, Netanyahu said: "You can't let such people have atomic bombs."
Such is the twisted world we live in. When will the voices of Sabra and Shatila be given such prominence on Western mainstream media to explain to the world the horror and injustice that they suffered? Maybe if such voices were somehow heard and understood, the American people would stop their governments bankrolling the fanatical, criminal state of Israel that has, and continues to, instigate so much conflict in the world. Washington gives Israel a license for genocide. The American people need to stop that.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/19/262446/israels-american-license-for-genocide/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:17 AM

Sorry - missed the opening bit.
Jim Carroll
"This week sees the 30th anniversary of the single-worst atrocity during the more than six decades of the Arab-Israeli conflict."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:21 AM

Press TV is a 24-hour English language news network owned by the state-owned media corporation Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB). Its headquarters are located in Tehran, Iran.

The station has been criticised for its uncritical embrace of provocative stances. For neo-conservative[citation needed] British journalist Nick Cohen the station is "a platform for the full fascist conspiracy theory of supernatural Jewish power"[3] and for commentator Douglas Murray it is the "Iranian government's propaganda channel".[4]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:37 AM

""So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.""

The evidence I posted which shows no confirmed terrorist actions by Hezbollah (just one probable) since 2006, when the were at war with Israel is very much on topic Keith, yet you simply ignore it and keep spouting the same old mantra.

How many years without misbehaviour would it take to show a hard wired Israeli apologist that times and people change?

Seven?.....seventy?.......in your case, forever?

BB,.... ""If we want to REDUCE the death toll, we would have to have Israel control the entire region.""

Be careful what you wish for. Israel is already trying for that and getting too damn close to succeeding. Their arrogance already knows no bounds.

By the time they achieve that aim, the only arabs and muslims left will be in refugee camps, and half of Iran will be radioactive.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:41 AM

""Don, I'm not such an egotist to think what I think means shit to Israel.""

Not aimed at you personally Cap'n, but there are a lot of people trying very hard to stifle that "pointless" discussion, which begs the question....... Why?....If successful, dreadful acts go unremarked.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:54 AM

Not just me Don.
The United States, the Netherlands, Bahrain, Egypt, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada and Israel classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

And, why do you imagine UN banned weapons transfer to them?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:11 AM

If you're such a fan of the UN, Keith (when it suits you, apparently), then let's hear you condemning the US for their routine, let's-hardly-bother-to-even-turn-up-to-listen vetoes, and Israel for routinely ignoring resolutions demanding that it not only desists from bad behaviour but also hands back land seized in 1967.

Have a read. Then decide whether you think the UN is on your side, Keith, or whether it's OK to just cherrypick the bits they come up with that happen to suit you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:18 AM

We have discussed the built in anti_Israel bias of UN.
That makes it all the more convincing when even UN agrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:44 AM

There's a big difference between "we have discussed it" and whether it's true. Has it ever occurred to you that you are miscontruing unrest over Israel's serial terrible behaviour as "anti-Israel bias"?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:00 AM

Of course, but not for long.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:24 AM

Greg, I swear, you would argue with an echo!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM

The United States, the Netherlands, Bahrain, Egypt, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada and Israel classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

So let's have a look at this. Let's set aside the Israel/US axis for just a mo, as they are openly hostile to Hezbollah and are, er, a little biased, shall we say? Then there's Egypt. Well, a little google will tell you (hardly surprisingly) that relations 'twixt the Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbollah are rapidly warming, definitely a growing spirit of cooperation building there, so might as well cross Egypt off the list. Also, you didn't tell us that the UK's position is not clear-cut. Perhaps we've lifted the blinkers slightly and recognised the part Hezbollah play in Lebanon's democracy (and don't the US absolutely hate it when parties they oppose go all democratic on them...) and the effective way they run schools, hospitals, social services, and develop agriculture and the country's infrastructure. Inconvenient or what. Wouldn't life be so much simpler if Hezbollah were all bad...

Which leaves a rather tawdry little list of US camp-followers. So that's authoritative then. I wonder whether most Islamic/Arabic nations in the region would classify Israel as a terrorist organisation if they were asked the right question (which they won't be, of course). But I forgot. You can't be a terrorist if you're big, can you? In the words of the old adage, Keith, the terrorist is the one with the small bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

I am wondering if any of these pro-anti Israel points have been made before, on any other of the "Middle East" Mudcat threads? (just trying to separate the "new" from the "not-so-new").

Not trying to make myself a Mudcat argument target - just wondering what's new?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM

What's new? We have a new Obama term, a weakened Bibi, far more hostility to Israel from neighbouring states, an end-game in sight in Syria...there's always something new. What isn't new is that there is still no peace process and Israel is still stealing Palestinian land.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:56 AM

Greg, I swear, you would argue with an echo!

And enjoy it, like as not. ;>)

Be well,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM

""Has it ever occurred to you that you are miscontruing unrest over Israel's serial terrible behaviour as "anti-Israel bias"?""

Of course he hasn't Steve. He's part of the worldwide "Whitewash Israel" campaign.

You can have a go at North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe, Darfur, Syria and any other bad lads among the nations,...not a PEEP, but just mention Israel and Keith pops out of the woodwork with his pants on fire and attacks you, you "anti semitic bastard".

He can't answer any question with honesty, and when you get an answer at all, it usually comes withe get out clause "It's not my opinion, it's the opinion of others who should know, and therefore I am broadcasting this non opinion to the whole western world, and if it proves to be absolute rubbish, it's their fault not mine".........At this point pausing for an enormous intake of breath.............and off he goes again. "The UN is biased,....Those hezbollah people are indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel, well we believe they bombed a bus,.....anyway they used to fire rockets ...er...seven years ago in an open conflict,.. oh, that's a war isn't it, no, we'll call it something else. Anyway, when they invaded Syrian airspace they were only defending themselves against hezbollah attacks,.....well I know hezbollah aren't doing anything but they might,....d'you think?......eh?"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:36 AM

tawdry little list of US camp-followers

You can not dismiss the views of all those governments, including ours of both colours.

"anti semitic bastard".
Wrong person Don.
I do not do the personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:39 AM

UNSCR 1701-15. Decides further that all States shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft:
(a) The sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories; and
(b) The provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above; except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorized by the Government of Lebanon or by UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11;

All States, not just the ones who look the other way.





"Alleged Hezbollah violations
As of February 2009, many key points in the resolution remained insufficiently addressed. In a special report, United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon mentions that "Hezbollah continues to refuse to provide any information on the release or fate of abducted soldiers, and places conditions and demands for the release that are far outside the scope of resolution 1701," Ban wrote in the report.[47] The report also points out that Hezbollah has replenished its stock of rockets and missiles in South Lebanon, and is now in possession of 10,000 long-range rockets and 20,000 short-range projectiles.[47]
[edit]Alleged Israeli violations
The Lebanese government claims that Israel has violated the resolution over 7000 times "by crossing Lebanese airspace," waters, and border on an almost daily basis since the implementation of the resolution.[48]
[edit]Alleged Lebanese violations
In 2009, Israel filed a complaint with the U.N. that Lebanon was not complying with the resolution after a Katyusha rocket was fired from Lebanon and landed next to a house in northern Israel and injured three people. The complaint affirmed Israel's right to defend itself and its citizens.[49] Later in 2009, when weapons that Hezbollah were hiding in a civilian home in a Lebanese town near the border of Israel exploded, both Israel and UNIFIL complained that Resolution 1701 was being violated by Lebanon and Hezbollah. The IDF estimates that the number of civilian homes in southern Lebanon that are being used to store weapons are in the hundreds.[50] Israel also criticized the Lebanese army, which is responsible for enforcing the resolution, for cooperating with Hezbollah in making sure that the evidence of the violation of the resolution had been cleared up before allowing U.N. peace keepers to do their job.[51] Two days later, fifteen Lebanese civilians from Kfar Shuba a "group of 15 Lebanese civilians carrying Lebanese and Hizbullah flags crossed into the Israeli occupied Shebaa Farms.[52] "[53] The IDF took no action to the provocation, but stressed that it was a violation of Resolution 1701. The United Nations confirmed that Hezbollah violated the resolution and that the group is rearming.[54]
[edit]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1701

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:42 AM

Our governments are all the same colour, deep blue, and they have to toe the yankee line. And I'm not exactly dismissing those nations' views (though they, too, are yankee camp-followers). But I am wondering what the views of the other 200-odd nations are that you didn't include.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:45 AM

Sure, Bruce. One resolution you homed in on. I don't think any country should operate in defiance of UN resolutions. But did you see that list I provided for you earlier, of the ones Israel hasn't complied with? Here in the interests of anti-cherrypicking, it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:45 AM

8. Calls for Israel and Lebanon to support a permanent ceasefire and a longterm solution based on the following principles and elements:
...
full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of 27 July 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese State;


So Israel, in disarming Hezboallah, is acting strictly in accord with UNSCR 1701. The alternative is to declare 1701 invalid, and resume open warfare. That seems to be what many here are saying should happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:56 AM

There are a few issues that get brought to this table and a few more that should.

1) Israel's handling of the settlements is atrocious and for that they deserve condemnation.

2) Israel's handling of the situation with Syria is about self-preservation and tough shit if y'all don't like it. That includes the BS that started this thread--read the first post.

3) The perception that many here are willing to do anything to slam Israel is clear in that none of those same people said a fucking thing about Muslim atrocities in Mali--in fact, they stayed strangely quiet on that.

Pfffttt!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM

""anti semitic bastard".
Wrong person Don.
I do not do the personal attacks.""

You may lack the Hutspah to come out and say it, but it's implicit in you attitude and responses to anyone who presents evidence of Israeli misdeeds, however far in the past, and however well documented.

As far as you are concerned, Israel is a Jewish State which has never committed any criminal act, and the whole world is anti semitic.

I say Israeli is a nationality.
Jewish is a religion.

They are not, never have been and never will be interchangeable. There are millions of Jews inside and outside of Israel who have no interest in fighting with Muslims.

It is the Israeli government and its often out of control IDF forces that persecutes, bullies and openly attacks its neighbours.

One day Israeli moderates will get fed up with the aggression and wipe away the warmongers, and Israel will cease to be a threat to surrounding states including Gaza. Then there'll be peace talks.

Who will you support when that happens Keith?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:07 AM

None of that is relevant to me Don.
Also, you put the made up statement in quotes as if I had said such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:19 AM

It seems to me that western government policies in the Middle East could benefit from some "fuzzing".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:22 AM

""So Israel, in disarming Hezboallah, is acting strictly in accord with UNSCR 1701.""

1). They are not disarming Hezbollah if Hezbollah possesses 10,000 rockets and Israel destroys one convoy which, remember, was "believed" to be headed for Hezbollah. There's far too little certainty in that.

2). They acted within the borders of Syria, which at this point is not actively engaged on either side, having more than enough problems of its own. They did so on the basis of a "belief" or "indications".

3). You say they are following the requirements of UNSCR 1701, yet the UN's own forces, UNIFIL have declined to disarm Hezbollah. The UN cannot be for and against disarmament, so who is doing its actual bidding? I'd say that circumstances have changed and that is born out, at least to some extent, by the fact that Hezbollah are neither firing, nor threatening to fire, any of those 10,000 rockets.

Turning one of your favourite arguments back, are you BB, setting different standards for Israel than for any of its neighbours. You always say that Israel has a right to defend itself.

Does Lebanon not have that right?....Does Iran?....Does Syria?, or Egypt?, or Jordan?

With Israel as a neighbour, do you think that no other Middle East Country than Israel should be capable of self defense?

If so Why?....To make an Israeli takeover easier?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:24 AM

The perception that many here are willing to do anything to slam Israel is clear in that....

This thread is a perfect example.
The OP was entirely bogus, yet all the Israel haters came running in to offer support.
They will believe anything against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 11:22 AM

Israel's handling of the situation with Syria is about self-preservation and tough shit if y'all don't like it.

It isn't a question of not liking it, Bruce, but of seeing it honestly for what it is. It's an attack on a neighbouring state with which it is not currently engaged in armed conflict. I absolutely understand why Israel feel they have to bomb convoys in a foreign country. They're scared of their enemies getting even more weapons. Yep, that's the messiness of making enemies, all right. As long as it's understood that, when Israel's enemies do the same thing to Israel, Israel shouldn't complain too much. When Hezbollah rocketed Israeli military targets in 2006 from Lebanon, we called Hezbollah terrorists. I've yet to hear anyone calling Israel terrorists for doing the same thing last week. Odd, that. Maybe it's that thing about the size of the bomb again. The danger is that, if we readily condone what Israel did, it will give them the heart to be a little bolder. Next thing we know, they'll be bombing alleged "nuclear installations" inside Iran. They won't bother waiting for solid evidence (or permission from the yanks), either. We can work that out from their propensity for bombing civilian areas in Gaza on the slenderest pretext of "Hamas using civilians as human shields" (trotted out as a routine excuse every single time).

I expect Hezbollah, Hamas, the Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon, Egypt and Iran are all scared of Israel getting getting even more weapons too. When they act accordingly, we condemn. When Israel acts similarly, we condone. Some of us call that a double standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:00 PM

Greg, :-) I thought so.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:23 PM

"This thread is a perfect example....." of an inept apologist for atrocities mindlessly denying every documentary act of terrorism carried out by the Israelis - rewriting history in fact.
Brucie, on the other hand (who has stridently demanded answers from others in the past) has taken the wise (if cowardly) way out and maintained his silence on Israel's worst atrocity; one that makes Israel far more likely to be the regime to carry out mass slaughter than any other organisation or nation - it has already done it and is quite likely to treat anyone who gets in the way of their expansionist ambitions - not very good apologists, either of you.
Israel is not the Jewish people and its crimes against humanity shame those who died in the Holocaust as well as feeding Antisemitism, as do the apologists for those crimes.
Both of you have accused others of being Antisemitic or Anti Israel at one time or another - nobody here is either, except your good selves.
You should both be ashamed of yourselves, and the fact that there is little chance of that from either of you sums you both up perfectly.
There comes a time in these threads when the only value in even visiting them is to see what further humiliation people like this pair can possibly bring upon themselves - this point was reached on this thread long ago.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:25 PM

""When Hezbollah rocketed Israeli military targets in 2006 from Lebanon, we called Hezbollah terrorists""

""When they act accordingly, we condemn. When Israel acts similarly, we condone."".

I didn't say or believe so in the first case and I won't say so in the second case.

I expect that all sides have their own reasons for doing what they do in conflict, some historic, some they genuinely believe to be offensive-defensive, but, mostly it's because they don't trust and have grown to dislike and to "demonize" the other side.

While there is normally disagrement on who is right and who is not so right in conflict (humans have a good capacity in believing they are always on the "right" side), the course taken here seems to leading to more conflict, less trust and a less liklihood of resolution and peace. Who benefits from that? Not likely the citizens of either side. Possibly the biggest benefits possibly go to those not directly involved, including the arms dealers?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:50 PM

To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:40 PM

Actually the Zionist theologians have blinders on when it comes to the facts about Israel and the insist on stating falsehoods and their world view that somehow Israel doesn't create collateral damage with little loss of life is patently wrong.

The culpability of Israel is known worldwide and their religious justification for their atrocities is a bulwark of their intransigence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:47 PM

There are within Israel, many who have disagreements with Netanyahu about his policies
and they represent the sane side of Israel. It's impossible to hate them.

This is true with those in America who oppose the AIPAC dictatorship and disagree with the Obama policy of forgiving Israel its atrocities.

The haters are coming from the Israeli government who proceed down the path of violence and authoritarianism.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 02:40 AM

Israel doesn't create collateral damage with little loss of life is patently wrong.

No Stringsinger, if you are still talking about the subject of your thread, it is YOU who are wrong again.

There are within Israel, many who have disagreements with Netanyahu about his policies

Yes. It is a functioning democracy with opposition parties and a free press unlike all the other countries in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 07:22 AM

A functioning democracy with millions of second-class citizens who do not enjoy the same rights and freedoms as the Jewish Israelis, by dint of accident of birth.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 10:15 AM

In Arab countries, Palestinians are denied even citizenship never mind voting or other civil rights.

Ethnic and religious minorities have full voting rights in Israel and are entitled to government benefits under various laws. Israeli Employment (Equal Opportunities) Law, 1988 prohibits discrimination in hiring, working conditions, promotion, professional training or studies, discharge or severance pay and benefits and payments provided for employees in connection with their retirement from employment, because of race, religion, nationality and land of origin, among other reasons.[68] Prohibition of Discrimination in Products, Services and Entry into Places of Entertainment and Public Places Law, forbid those who operate public places or provide services or products to discriminate because of race, religion, nationality, and land of origin, among other reasons.[69] According to the 2010 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and the government effectively enforced these prohibitions.[70]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 10:16 AM

....likewise Bedouin.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:00 PM

"....likewise Bedouin."
Jim Carroll

Bedouin land and culture threatened by Israel's plans for resettlement
BEDOUINS SAY PLANS TO MOVE THEM TO PURPOSE-BUILT COMMUNITIES SWEEP ASIDE THEIR CULTURE AND CENTURIES-OLD TIES WITH THE LAND
Phoebe Greenwood in Tel Aviv
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 9 May 2012 10.23 BST
.The site in As Sawahira, West Bank, where Bedouins from the Negev desert have been relocated by Israeli authorities.
A stench of rubbish wafts over the Palestinian town of As Sawahira from the al-Abdali dump. The vast tip sprawls over an excavated hillside on the outskirts of the town and receives a constant stream of trucks carrying waste from nearby Jerusalem.
Israeli authorities are proposing to relocate 2,300 Bedouins from the surrounding hills to this site as part of their push to resolve "the Bedouin problem". Simultaneously, plans are proceeding through the Israeli parliament this month to move a further 90,000 Bedouin from their ancestral land in the Negev desert in Israel's south to government-planned townships.
The Israeli administration argues that a move to purpose-built communities will lift the indigenous population from unacceptable depths of poverty. Across Israeli-controlled territory, Bedouin communities argue that their culture, along with centuries-old ties to land, is being swept aside to make way for Jewish expansion.
Around 250 Bedouins from the Jahalin group already live on the fringes of the As Sawahira dump, moved here by the Israeli authorities 15 years ago from land now occupied by the Ma'ale Adumim settlement. Their modest homes and huts are overlooked by piles of rubbish on one side and the Kfar Adumim settlement on the other.
"I'm sure the dump is very damaging for our health, but the Israelis moved us here – we had no choice," says Abu Jahalin, 70. He has heard of the plans to move thousands more Bedouins to the dump. He points to the proposed site with his walking stick, explaining that it will run all the way from the top of the hill, where his sheep graze, to the piles of rubbish.
Abu Jahalin says there is not enough land to feed the animals already here: "They [the Israelis] will wall off the whole area so there will be nowhere for us to graze our animals. I'll probably end up feeding them at home. I've had to sell off most of my flock [of sheep] already to pay for animal feed." From a flock of more than 200, he has only 40 sheep left.
Khan al-Ahmar is one of 20 Bedouin communities in the E1 area outside Jerusalem that are scheduled to be evacuated. Bedouin families have lived in this village since 1951, after they fled as refugees from the Negev during the Israeli war of independence.
They live in the West Bank, but their land is controlled by the Israelis as it falls within Area C. The EU is funding Oxfam to run development programmes here. The Palestinian Authority is drafting a strategy to address their needs – but, ultimately, their fate is in Israeli hands.
In 1975, Israel declared the area a closed military zone. Today, almost every structure has been issued with a demolition order. A spokesman for the Israeli civil administration confirmed it is negotiating with the E1 Bedouins to move them and is investigating the dump as a possible relocation point.
"We are waiting for the results of an investigation into the health impacts of living on that site," Major Guy Inbar says. "I know they don't want [to move] but because they are living illegally, we have to find a better option within the law. Why now? Because now we want to enforce the law."
Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.
Thabet Abu Rass, the Negev director for Adalah, an organisation that offers legal advice to the Arab minority in Israel, describes a painstaking fight for the rights of unrecognised villagers. "We have to petition the high court for each basic service, like water. Most of the time we win the cases – but the problem is implementation. Sometimes it takes 10 years. Or they grant us 'minimal access' to water, which means one tap three miles from the village."
According to a pending law for the regulation of Bedouin settlement in the Negev, due to be presented to the parliament this month, these villages will be evacuated in the next five years and ecah of their inhabitants compensated to move to one of seven government-planned townships – the poorest towns in Israel, with some of the highest crime rates.
Abu Rass argues that while the Bedouin are ill-equipped to survive in a town, they are excellent farmers who would thrive with state support to cultivate their land: "The Israelis say they want to modernise them. But modernisation doesn't necessarily mean urbanisation."
Information gathered by Oxfam from Bedouin families in the West Bank last year suggested that selling animals, mostly sheep, can earn a herder as much as £21,000 in a year. The problem is that as their grazing land has diminished, about half of this income is now spent on animal feed. Add to that the costs of trucking in water and paying for fuel for electricity generators, or investing in solar panels, and there is very little cash left over.
Mark Regev, a spokesman for the Israeli prime minister, says there is understanding between the government and the Bedouins that the situation is untenable. He insists, contrary to what is laid out in the proposed legislation, the Negev herders will be offered a choice to move to a town or rural village.
"The pockets of poverty and neglect in Bedouin communities must end. One [Negev] village is right next to a terrible, polluted dump. No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:33 PM

Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:46 PM

What does Egypt have to do with anything? - The Israeli regime is destroying the health of Bedouins, particularly, children by forcibly evicting them to toxic sites in order to build settlements and to suggest otherwise is simply lying - this was pointed out to you at the time the plan was put forward.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:55 PM

Why single out Israel for your anger when they are treated much worse next door?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:57 PM

Best analysis of UN condemnation I've ever read.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:58 PM

Bedouin Leader Busting the Myth of Israeli *Racism*
Bedouin leader, Ismail Khaldi sets the record straight once and for all and exposes Palestinian (Pallywood) lies of Israel being a "Apartheid State" and *racist*.

An IDF officer, he's become one of the most well respected soldiers serving in the Israeli army. Refuting the myth of Israeli bias or racism against minorities, he stipulates that In fact it's no other than the "Palestinians" who are biased and racist against their own brethren who happen to be of other tribes such as the Bedouins, Druze, Baha'i and the Domari people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM

The Bedouin Israeli population has increased tenfold since the establishment of the State (1948), due to a high natural increase – about 5% – which is unparalleled in Israel, or elsewhere in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: pdq
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:08 PM

Israel is a tiny place and there is not enough land for nomadic people(s) to keep up that way of life.

The Bedouin in the Mandate for Palestine region after WWII numbered less than 17,000.

They are now 170,000 and that is just in Israel, about 23% of the Mandate land.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:20 PM

THE BEDOUIN PEOPLE ARE BEEING POISONED BY DELIBERATE GOVERNMENT POLICY - THERE IS NO EXCULE FOR THAT
YOU SPECIFICALLY CHOSE THE BEDOUINS AS AN EXAMPLE OF NON-DESCRIMINATION - PERHAPS YOU MIGHT LIKE TO SUPPLY EXAMPLES OF ISRAELIS BEING MOVED ONTO TOXIC SITES - NO? I THOUGHT NOT.

See below - pagefulls of others if you don't have enough

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:21 PM

Whoops - sorry about the typos, but I'm sure you get the drift
Jim Carroll

"First arriving in Tel Aviv's Levinsky Park during a freezing January, Jacob was shocked at the uniformly hostile attitude of Israelis towards Africans like him. As genocide survivors, he says, Darfuris headed for Israel "thought that we shared a common interest" with Jewish Israelis raised on the memory of the Holocaust. But a common refrain he heard from Israelis was that all Sudanese refugees came from an "enemy state", and were not to be welcomed.
The worst thing about the racist abuse, Jacob says, is seeing the children of refugees exposed to violence and hatred; for example, when a south Tel Aviv kindergarten was burned down in April of this year. Attacks like these ones on children are a traumatic and painful reminder of the atrocities that many refugees have witnessed at home, says Jacob. In both instances, he says, one sees destruction of property and threats for no reason, with the strong message that "because you're black, you're a kushi [a racist Hebrew name for Africans], you're not a human being; you don't deserve to be in this state.""
..... The Israeli government can and should take measures to contain and discourage racist violence, says Jacob. Anything less amounts, in his words, to "really an underestimation of the dignity of the human being.""
http://ardc-israel.org/en/blog/2012/12/watch-sudanese-refugee-jacob-tells-israeli-abuse-hannukah-south-tel-aviv-marred-racism

The Israeli government ignored the UN's call, and the following month, Israelis firebombed a kindergarten for African children in Tel Aviv, igniting a wave of violence against non-Jewish African people in Israel that is still ongoing. Below are links to the UN reports, in text and video form, social media stories about the recent violence, footage from two years of anti-African rallies, and extended one-on-one interviews about opposition to the presence of Africans in Israel.
http://www.davidsheen.com/racism/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_acfNfFkgw

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2012/10/23/survey-of-israeli-racism-58-of-jews-label-their-state-apartheid/

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/briefing-papers/1230-israels-discrimination-against-its-arab-citizens

http://electronicintifada.net/content/un-body-appalled-israels-racial-segregation-policies/11065

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 02:51 PM

Do not be so gullible Jim.
You will believe anything against Israel.
Israel is not poisoning anyone. The Bedouin in Israel are the lucky ones.

No other state in Middle East can match this.

Ethnic and religious minorities have full voting rights in Israel and are entitled to government benefits under various laws. Israeli Employment (Equal Opportunities) Law, 1988 prohibits discrimination in hiring, working conditions, promotion, professional training or studies, discharge or severance pay and benefits and payments provided for employees in connection with their retirement from employment, because of race, religion, nationality and land of origin, among other reasons.[68] Prohibition of Discrimination in Products, Services and Entry into Places of Entertainment and Public Places Law, forbid those who operate public places or provide services or products to discriminate because of race, religion, nationality, and land of origin, among other reasons.[69] According to the 2010 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and the government effectively enforced these prohibitions.[70]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 03:05 PM

More than 60,000 African asylum seekers reside in Israel today, most having arrived in the past five years, according to the African Refugee Development Center in Israel, which advocates on their behalf. The vast majority have come from Eritrea and Sudan, crossing the border on foot from Egypt. None stay in Egypt then!


Other countries, he noted, which are better equipped than Israel to absorb the refugees should be recruited to help solve the crisis. "They have more room, and they have more resources," he said. "Israel has been taking a beating in the international press for how it treats the refugees, but never has there been any suggestion in these reports that maybe other countries should be lending a hand."

How many African refugees are taken in by Israel's neighbours?
Why constantly attack Israel Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM

I wish you two would just get married or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM

A few more "lies" for your bedtime reading
Jim Carroll


http://www.timesofisrael.com/woman-arrested-for-wearing-a-talit-at-the-western-wall/

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/rel-fan-articles.html

"The incentive offered in the new law, by pushing Isaac toward the top of the waiting list, unfairly punishes Jacob for his religious views. While nobly intentioned as a means of increasing the organ supply, practically this new law institutionalizes religious discrimination in medical treatment. Such a notion flies in the face of the Hippocratic tradition that has guided medical practice since its inception. Treating patients differently based on their religious convictions is something that good people should not tolerate."
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/new-israeli-law-puts-religious-discrimination-in-medical-treatment-1.428170

http://urj.org/about/union/pr/2012/?syspage=article&item_id=98020

' "Palestinians face systematic discrimination merely because of their race, ethnicity, and national origin, depriving them of electricity, water, schools, and access to roads, while nearby Jewish settlers enjoy all of these state-provided benefits," said Carroll Bogert, deputy executive director for external relations at Human Rights Watch. "While Israeli settlements flourish, Palestinians under Israeli control live in a time warp – not just separate, not just unequal, but sometimes even pushed off their lands and out of their homes." '
http://www.juancole.com/2010/12/hrw-on-israeli-racial-discrimination-in-west-bank.html

http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=296430

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3480345,00.html

http://www.policymic.com/articles/21819/women-s-rights-in-israel-girls-as-young-as-3-face-gender-discrimination

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israeli-rabbis-ban-home-sale-and-rental-non-jews-2010-12-07

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33429.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM

I give up Jim.
A lot of people live in Israel.
There are bound to be a few racists as in any country.
You can google up stuff from the enemies of any country, but Israel is by far the nicest place in the whole region.

Back to the subject.

To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So on this issue the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.
FRANTIC!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 08:18 PM

Why single out Israel for your anger when they are treated much worse next door?

We single out Israel in this context because you singled out Israel as some kind of besieged bastion of democracy in the region, that's why. What happens "next door" is entirely beside the point. I beat up my neighbour and give him a black eye, but that's OK because next-door-but-two the bloke gave his wife two black eyes. That is primary school playground talk, Keith. As for unfair treatment of non-Jews within Israel, here, Keith - have a little read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

There are so many examples of the mistreatment of Arabs in Israel that I don't need to sift through to provide quotes. Read it for yourself.

As for the disgraceful, racist treatment of the Bedouin in the Negev, here's another read for you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/05/bedouin-negev-israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:24 AM

So, why do you single out a country for criticism when it is the most progressive country in the whole region, and all its neighbours have a much worse record?

Why do you never criticise those neighbours for their much worse racism and persecution of minorities.
Is it because they are Arabs and you have a lower expectation, or is it because of who the Israelis are?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:06 AM

"There are bound to be a few racists as in any country."
Moving the Bedouins adjacent to a toxic waste dump was the decision of the government - not "a few racists" You were fully aware of this yet you deliberately selected this racist act as an example of Israeli democracy - not a bad one as it happens, but not in the way you intended.
Arresting women for praying was the act of the Israeli police force, not of "a few racists".
As the article on the racism experienced by Jacob, the African, points out:
"The Israeli government can and should take measures to contain and discourage racist violence, says Jacob. Anything less amounts, in his words, to "really an underestimation of the dignity of the human being."
Racism and religious bigotry appears to be rife in Israel - not "a few" - this is by a people who were subjected by racism in the extreme - six million of them died at the hands of what - "a few racists"

"the enemies of any country"
I chose these examples mainly from Israeli papers or from recognised organisations like Amnesty so you could not make this charge, some of them you have used yourself to back up your own arguments, yet you still make it - are you really suggesting that all of these examples are "lies"?

"Why do you never criticise those neighbours for their much worse racism "
Because you have yet to show that their racism or bigotry is any worse than Israel's.
You have been squealing about "thread drift" throughout this discussion - the subject is Israel's behaviour, not Egypt.
You, not us, chose to tell us how democratic Israel was, selecting one of the worst examples of state persecution of an ethnic minority. - now choke on the result of it.

"Is it because they are Arabs"
Don't you dare accuse anybody here (other than yourself) of racist selection - not having devoted the time and effort you have in showing how culturally depraved, Pakistanis, Muslims, Asian - whatever. every time you post.

"I wish you two would just get married or something."
Nah Jeri - it would never work out - he likes to eat his egg from the blunt end, while I prefer the pointy end!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:31 AM

Moving the Bedouins adjacent to a toxic waste dump
It is not a toxic waste dump, it is an ordinary dump that in crowded countries like mine people do have to live next to.

In a crowded country you can not always let nomadic people set up wherever they want.
Israel is doing its best for their Bedouin and their population is thriving.
Let's here some condemnation of the persecution of Bedouin in Egypt.


Racism and religious bigotry appears to be rife in Israel - not "a few"
Not true. Jews are no more racist than anyone else Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:38 AM

Guardian last August.
For the last two decades, the security situation in Sinai has rapidly deteriorated, fuelled by abject poverty, socioeconomic marginalisation and heavy-handed mistreatment of Bedouins, an ancient and proud community, by the Mubarak security apparatus. From the 1990s onwards, billions of US dollars were poured into developing the tourist industry in Sharm el-Sheik in south Sinai and the peninsula at large, with most jobs going to outsiders, not Bedouins. There was no trickle down to the local economy.

Similarly, Mubarak and his associates sold huge tracts of Sinai land to crony capitalists, angering Bedouins who felt excluded from the development of agricultural farms in their heartland.

Equally important, Mubarak unleashed his security thugs against restive Bedouins and humiliated and insulted their leaders, a sin that deepened the community's resentment against the Cairo authorities. Over the years many Bedouins have told me of their grievances against the Mubarak regime, stressing economic exploitation of their land and disrespect for their code of honour and values

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:50 AM

"Israel is an immigrant country, an assemblage of cultural groups from all over the world - a multiethnic state combining Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews, Bedouins, Druze, Arabs and more, who coalesce to make the country great," he explains. "We are compelled to find a common language and common ground, despite our differences."


Back with his family in their tiny house in Khawalid several months later, he determined to bring Americans over for a personal guided tour of his homeland - "the best place on earth, and the small part of it that is my wonderful village." It did not take him long to fulfill this vow: Soon after starting his studies at the University of Haifa, he was arranging visits for foreigners with the help of Prof. Barry Berger, director of the overseas student program. Eventually, he says, thousands of people came to learn about Bedouins in Israel "and the story of one Bedouin in particular who visited America."

Serving his country

Before earning a master's degree from Tel Aviv University in political science with a concentration in international relations, Khaldi did two years of voluntary service as a police officer, first with the border patrol and later in Jerusalem. His hand rested on a Koran at his swearing-in ceremony, and he notes that he was continuing the tradition of Bedouin men who have chosen to do military or national service since before the state was officially founded.



"I had put my life on the line for my country, and now I wanted to serve it as a diplomat. My idea was to explain Israeli society, culture and politics from the perspective of the Bedouin minority in the Jewish state. My ultimate goal was to advocate for Israel and dispel the myriad of erroneous 'facts' that are unfortunately often accepted as truth."

He is quick to add that he wasn't setting out to paint Israel as a perfect place. "Like every other nation in the world, Israel has its problems," he says. Nevertheless, he was blindsided by the ferocity of Israel hatred he encountered - especially among Jews - that often earned him a less-than-warm reception.

He took to reminding Americans that the United States is not perfect either, despite a much longer nationhood than Israel's. He explains that he believes in a positive approach, searching for solutions as a free member of a democracy, rather than less constructive avenues of criticism.

"I know discrimination in Israel continues to exist. But I feel it is our role, the younger generation's, to dedicate ourselves to the elimination of discrimination and to seek true economic and social justice throughout our society," writes Khaldi. "There is an African American [US] president, but that doesn't mean discrimination does not exist in America, and it also doesn't mean that African Americans should wash their hands of their country of birth."


Khaldi is still a proud Bedouin and believes that a Jewish state is in the best interest of Israel's minorities. "It was through their alliance with the emerging Jewish state that the Bedouins began to transcend the isolation that was part of their nomadic history," he relates to anyone who cares to understand this bit of Middle East history. "My family, too, has reaped the benefits of this alliance, receiving health care, education, job training and pensions. ... Israel's right to exist is my right and my people's right."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:04 AM

"It is not a toxic waste dump"
Piss off Keith - you have been given the information which describes it as such - and earlier articles that have been pointed out to you have described the result of the dump's toxicity and how it has affected the childrens' health.
You are now deliberately covering up this, the same as you dismissed the malnutrition in Palestinian children due to the blockade - you really are a low-life shit.
"you can not always let nomadic people set up wherever they want."
The sites that the Bedouins have been evicted from have been occupied by them for generations
THEY HAVE BEEN EVICTED TO MAKE ROOM FOR JEWISH SETTLERS AND THE RESULT IS THAT THEY ARE BEING POISONED - ISRAELS RESPONSE TO THE "BEDOUIN PROBLEM" chillingly familiar?
And now, having whined about thread drift you have drifted to a totally unrelated subject - as Steve Shaw rightly pointed out.
"What happens "next door" is entirely beside the point."
Don't you ever mention "thread-drift again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:44 AM

"This is interesting because 'condemnation' has figured heavily in the UN's lexicon for many, many decades. Archived news articles finds that in '56 the US wanted the UN to condemn the Soviets for doing bad things in Hungary. In '61 the Soviets, in a stroke of originality, wanted the UN to condemn the US for doing bad things in Latin America. In '74 the Brits wanted the UN to condemn the Greek Junta in Greece. In 1990 France asked the UN to condemn Iraq for acting like Iraq in the 80s. The list goes on and on of countries asking the UN to condemn other countries. It seems like the UN has been handing out condemnations like candy at the doctor's office, and I still don't know what it means. Or, more to the point: what difference does it make?"

Paragraph from the link posted on Feb 9 at 12:57 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 06:23 AM

Wha......?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:02 AM

Jim, if you mean the dump we discussed before, it is in Jerusalem, a few minutes walk from some of the holiest sites, and surrounded by apartments and offices.
It was NOT a toxic dump, but an ordinary recycling depot.
I even provided photos.
Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

""The danger is that, if we readily condone what Israel did, it will give them the heart to be a little bolder. Next thing we know, they'll be bombing alleged "nuclear installations" inside Iran.""

Yes Steve, there's precedent already established for that statement, as follows:-

""Israeli Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance. See War and Conflict Journal's article on this attack.

Source ABC News and Associated Press.""

This was just one of the Israeli incursions I posted a few days ago, and which were studiously ignored by our Pro Israel fanatics.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:55 AM

From the Anti Semite BBC
Jim Carroll
"Half the Bedouin population lives in cities.* Bedouin settlements are amongst the most deprived in Israel, and are severely lacking in services such as public transport and banks. The rest of the 76,000 continue to live in tens of "unrecognized villages," some of which predate the existence of Israel.[9] These villages do not appear on any Israeli maps, and are denied basic services like water, electricity and schools. It is forbidden by the Israeli authorities for the residents of these villages to build permanent structures, though many do, risking fines and home demolition.[9] Several, including Wadi el Na'am, are located close to the Ramat Hovav toxic waste dump, and residents have suffered from higher than average incidences of respiratory illnesses and cancer.[13] The Israeli government frequently demolishes homes and sprays toxic pesticides onto crops in the unrecognized villages, including one episode where Bedouin homes were demolished to make way for the establishment of a Jewish town.[14] ..."
http://www.sciforums.com/BBC-on-Israel-s-Negev-Bedouin-policy-shame-t-71060.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:00 AM

""Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.""

The fact that Egypt, or any other country, ill treats a minority, makes that country wrong, evil and racist.

Israel is one of those countries and the fact that it has company in its mistreatment of minorities does not make it better than the others.

It makes them all equally wrong.

When will you grow up and realise that "Jimmy did it too miss, always was and still is an invalid argument.

And who is deperately changing the subject now?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

And again
Jim Carroll
A mass forcible eviction, which seems the most likely outcome of the plans of the Israeli authorities, would be a breach of the Geneva Conventions – which is a war crime, for which there is personal criminal liability.
There are also grave environmental concerns with the proposed relocation site for many of the Jahalin Bedouin communities, which is located next to a potentially highly toxic rubbish dump east of Jerusalem.
Furthermore, B'Tselem and the Bedouin communities of Area C claim that the plan to expand Ma'ale Adumim will sever the connection between the southern and the northern part of theWest Bank for Palestinians – effectively ending the possibility of a two-state solution
http://palsolidarity.org/2011/12/khan-al-ahmar-forced-expulsion-of-bedouins-from-area-c/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:55 AM

There is hope in the
younger generation

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 12:58 PM

Don, I am grateful to Israel that Assad does not now have a nuclear capability, and so is the rest of the world outside of Iran.
You would be happy with it?

Israel does not mistreat its minorities.
Egypt does.

"Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.

Locked in this arid expanse, the Bedouins claim they have have been left to fend for themselves. Mistrust between the government and the Bedouins, some of whom allegedly collaborated with the Israeli military when it occupied Sinai in 1967, continues to fuel negative stereotypes about them."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/jun/17/egypt-bedouin-risk-of-exclusion-citizenship-rights

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM

Thanks for that video Freda. Jewish youth are increasingly becoming aware and active in such ways.

And for those who lob "self-hating Jew" around at any Jewish critique of Israeli policies, this video demonstrates how blatantly false such an accusation is. Instead, it shows just how proud such dissenting Jewish voices are to actively reclaim their longstanding Jewish spiritual and political tradition of, and identity as, activists for social justice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8dCIrO5kbw

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:07 PM

Israel doesn't mistreat its minorities, huh?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/feb/10/beitar-jerusalem-counts-cost-arson

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM

Steve, that is a story about football?

Jim, your quote was not BBC but Wiki, and the other from an extreme anti-Israel site.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM

An interesting article from the Harvard's Institute of Politics.

The Plight of the Syrian Kurds

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:36 PM

Jim, the fake BBC Wiki quote was about "unrecognised" villages.
Some are near a toxic site.
Israel is trying to relocate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM

""In a crowded country you can not always let nomadic people set up wherever they want.
Israel is doing its best for their Bedouin and their population is thriving.
Let's here some condemnation of the persecution of Bedouin in Egypt.""

But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it? Just what you accused us of doing?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:49 PM

""Khaldi is still a proud Bedouin and believes that a Jewish state is in the best interest of Israel's minorities.""

One uncle Tom doth not an inclusive nation make! Especially when he is glossing over the treatment of his fellows. It is also difficult to believe that a genuine Arab would see a "Jewish State" as anything but anathema. An "Israeli State", well maybe, but it still ignores the plight of his kind.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM

""Israel does not mistreat its minorities.""

LIE!

You have been presented with irrefutable evidence that it does.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:03 PM

""Jim, your quote was not BBC but Wiki, and the other from an extreme anti-Israel site.""

My posted facts were not from an extreme anti Israel source Keith, but from ABC News and Associated Press.

Was that the reason for your ignoring the whole lot, because they were from impeccably credible sources?

And we aren't going to allow you to sidetrack this thread. You accused us of trying to change the subject. Now we won't allow you to do the self same thing. So answer the points put to you, or quit.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:44 PM

It is also difficult to believe that a genuine Arab would see a "Jewish State" as anything but anathema
Only if you have a false impression based on hatred Don.
Every year, between 5 and 10% of all Bedouin males reaching the required age VOLUNTEER for the army of Israel.

But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it?
No. The subject was persecution of Bedouin.
They are persecuted in Egypt, but not in Israel.

You have been presented with irrefutable evidence that it does.
Er, no Don.

My posted facts were not from an extreme anti Israel source Keith, but from ABC News and Associated Press.
I remember the one about Israel destroying Assad's nuclear facility, for which the world is grateful, and I posted about it.
What did I miss Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 03:47 PM

Real BBC quote.
In fact, there are thousands of Muslim Bedouin who serve in the Israeli army, or IDF, and even bear arms against their fellow Muslims in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
They do so although it is not compulsory for them to serve in the Israeli military, as it is for most Israeli Jews, and sometimes military service comes with a price tag.
"I will do whatever is required from me to do the job with the full faith in the service of the Israeli state," asserts Maj Fehd Fallah, a Bedouin from the village of Saad in the Israeli occupied Golan.
He is happy to perform his duty, whoever he may have to fight against.

"Yes, I have fought against Muslims in Gaza," he says. That includes Israel's three-week Operation Cast Lead which began in December last year.
"And I would fight again if I had to," he added. "Israeli Muslims who don't serve in the IDF should be ashamed for not serving their country."

Military service is a family tradition in many Bedouin villages, especially those located in the north of Israel.
During my conversation with Maj Fallah, two men were standing listening to us. They were his cousins and both wore the uniform of the IDF.
"It's a legacy - it's something that has been passed on from generation to generation in my family," Maj Fallah explains.
"My father and his father served in the army too."


Bedouin who serve in Israel's army


Many Bedouin Arabs serve in the Israeli army and security forces

By Rachid Sekkai
BBC Arabic Service, northern Israel

The traditional view of the Arab-Israeli conflict is of Jews fighting Muslims. But that image does not always reflect the truth.
In fact, there are thousands of Muslim Bedouin who serve in the Israeli army, or IDF, and even bear arms against their fellow Muslims in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
They do so although it is not compulsory for them to serve in the Israeli military, as it is for most Israeli Jews, and sometimes military service comes with a price tag.
"I will do whatever is required from me to do the job with the full faith in the service of the Israeli state," asserts Maj Fehd Fallah, a Bedouin from the village of Saad in the Israeli occupied Golan.
He is happy to perform his duty, whoever he may have to fight against.

Bedouin have fought and died alongside Jewish Israelis in the army
"Yes, I have fought against Muslims in Gaza," he says. That includes Israel's three-week Operation Cast Lead which began in December last year.
"And I would fight again if I had to," he added. "Israeli Muslims who don't serve in the IDF should be ashamed for not serving their country."
Israel's Bedouin are a Muslim, Arabic-speaking group. Although these formerly nomadic people were once considered part of the Palestinian nation, most of them are now proud to call themselves Israelis.
Co-operation between Jews and Bedouin began before the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948.
In 1946, tribal leader Abu Yusuf al-Heib sent more than 60 of his men to fight alongside Zionist forces against their Arab neighbours in Galilee.
More than 60 years on, Maj Fallah's devotion to the Jewish state was unequivocal. He even refused to be interviewed by me in Arabic, insisting: "I have better command of Hebrew."
Military service is a family tradition in many Bedouin villages, especially those located in the north of Israel.
During my conversation with Maj Fallah, two men were standing listening to us. They were his cousins and both wore the uniform of the IDF.
"It's a legacy - it's something that has been passed on from generation to generation in my family," Maj Fallah explains.
"My father and his father served in the army too."
Potential conflict
The Israeli army does not publish statistics about the exact number of non-Jewish enlisted soldiers, although it says hundreds of non-Jewish Israeli citizens - Muslims, Christians and Druze - join up every year.
Their numbers have grown rather than decreased since the controversial military assault on Gaza.
        
When I was in the army, they said it would be easy for me to get the job. I applied for a lot of things but it wasn't easy
Maher, Bedouin recruit
The Israeli military official responsible for minorities is Col Ahmed Ramiz.
He is Druze, another Arabic-speaking ethnic group with a presence in Israel and other parts of the Middle East.
He told me that the main obligation for any citizen of Israel "is to defend his country and to serve in the IDF".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 03:59 PM

Steve, that is a story about football?

I can't believe you'd discount such a thing so cynically. In microcosm, it's all about Israeli attitudes to Arabs, Keith. Israel apropos of racism is about where we were (and where you are still) in the 1950s. What goes on in a football crowd and what has yet to be addressed is a prime symptom of a nation's cultural/racial issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:03 PM

No Steve.
Football hooligans are a thuggish subset of a community.
To draw a conclusion about all Israelis from that incident is racist bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM

From your story Steve.
"Beitar, the only Israeli club to have never signed a player from the 20% of the country's population that is Arab"

It is racist to judge all Jews in Israel by a subgroup of the supporters of one football team.
Especially now that team has Muslim players too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:30 PM

Please yourself. When I say it's symptomatic of Israeli attitudes to Arabs I'm talking about an attitude endemic in the country that has not been effectively addressed. Outrages at football matches in this country one tenth as bad as that one are roundly condemned here (as Luis Suarez discovered), and their incidence has reduced to almost nil. What I am not saying, just as I would not have said about violence and racism at football matches here in the 50s, 60s and 70s, is that it meant everyone in the country was racist. There are racist bigots everywhere, but we can usefully judge a country by what they do about it. The fact that Israel has 70s-style difficulties of this kind at their matches speaks volumes about where they are along the road to fighting racism. And that is not very far. And you do have to wonder whether they care.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 06:06 PM

Guest CS, what a great video - thanks for posting. It's informative to hear from brave Jewish voices for peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:56 PM

Indeed, Freda. I'm sorry I missed that link when CS put it up. It's wonderful. What a shame that there are so many race-hate comments underneath it. One there that Keith himself might have proudly typed:

What a joke. Israeli Arabs have more rights in israel than they do in any other arab country. This should be plainly obvious to everyone by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 10:27 PM

If you read your own link you will see it was roundly condemned in Israel and people arrested and charged.

You are passing judgement on a whole ethnic group on the basis of one crime by a group of far-Right football hooligans.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:09 AM

Yeah. And when Arabs start saying the same things those Jews are, maybe change will happen and then there'll be an outbreak of peace. One can but hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:26 AM

Steve.
One there that Keith himself might have proudly typed:

What a joke. Israeli Arabs have more rights in israel than they do in any other arab country.

Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jewish Israelis, so yes that is perfectly correct.
Also they are exempted from compulsory military service.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:24 AM

"From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:09 AM
Yeah. And when Arabs start saying the same things those Jews are, maybe change will happen and then there'll be an outbreak of peace. One can but hope."

They already ARE working in solidarity with Arabs 999. They already are spreading the same message.

JVP actively oppose the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, just the same as Arabs do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:28 AM

Do you have a video of the Crow Sister? Of Arabs working with Jews to bring the present Israeli government to its senses regarding the settlements? If so, please post. I'd love to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:49 AM

I see Keith isn't the only Troll on this thread -
Before it gets closed down; Amnesty's take on the Bedouin's treatment in Israel - antisemitc, no doubt
Jim Carroll

ISRAEL: CANCEL PLAN TO FORCIBLY DISPLACE JAHALIN BEDOUIN COMMUNITIES
"Thousands of Bedouin are facing the destruction of their homes and livelihoods under this Israeli military plan"
Ann Harrison, Deputy Director for Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Programme
Israeli defence minister Ehud Barak should cancel military plans to forcibly displace around 2,300 Bedouin residents of the West Bank to an area beside the Jerusalem municipal garbage dump, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing paper.
In Stop the Transfer: Israel about to expel Bedouin from homes to expand settlements, the organization calls on the Israeli military to order an immediate halt to all demolitions in the 20 communities affected by the plan.
Amnesty International said that verbal promises made by Israeli military officials last week not to implement pending demolition orders in Khan al-Ahmar, one of the Bedouin communities targeted for displacement in the Jerusalem district of the occupied West Bank, are insufficient.   
"Thousands of Bedouin living in some of the most vulnerable communities in the West Bank are facing the destruction of their homes and livelihoods under this Israeli military plan. Many are registered refugees and some have been displaced multiple times since 1948," said Ann Harrison, Deputy Director for Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Programme.
"The Israeli authorities must guarantee the right to adequate housing for residents in all 20 communities, along with Palestinians throughout the occupied West Bank. This means protecting them from forced evictions and conducting genuine consultations with all of the communities."
In July 2011, Israel Civil Administration officials first told UN agencies of a plan to evict some 2,300 residents of 20 Bedouin communities in the Jerusalem district to a site approximately 300 metres from the Jerusalem municipal garbage dump.
The communities are all currently located near illegal settlements in the Ma'ale Adumim settlement bloc, many of them in areas targeted for settlement expansion.
The Israeli military considers most structures in these communities – located in Area C of the occupied West Bank, where Israel retains authority over planning and zoning – to be built illegally without the required permits. However, construction permits are almost impossible to obtain for Palestinian communities in Area C. Most of the structures in these communities have demolition orders against them, including homes, kitchens, external toilets, animal shelters, and two primary schools.   
The Israeli military authorities have not consulted representatives of the Bedouin communities about the displacement plan. Community representatives have told Amnesty International that they reject the plan because it would be impossible for them to maintain their traditional way of life if they were moved to a restricted area near the garbage dump.
Israel forcibly moved Bedouin families to the same area in the late 1990s, placing homes as close as 150 metres to the garbage dump. Bedouin who live there have told Amnesty International that the site was unsuitable to their way of life, that they had had to sell off their livestock due to a lack of grazing areas, and that they suffered high rates of unemployment. Some have returned to the areas from which they had been displaced.   
According to the Israeli Ministry of Environmental Protection, the dump receives up to 1100 tons of garbage per day, most of it from Jerusalem. The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage.
Although disposal of waste at the site is due to cease later this year, no rehabilitation plan has been agreed, which means that the environmental hazards will likely remain for years.
Israeli officials have emphasized that the displacement plan envisions connecting relocated Bedouin communities to the electricity and water networks. They have not explained why Israel can provide such services to illegal settlements and unrecognized settler outposts in the West Bank, but not to longstanding Bedouin communities.
The 20 Bedouin communities have created a "protection committee" to coordinate their response to the displacement plan. The committee's stated preference would be to return to their lands in Israel's Negev desert from which they were displaced by the Israeli authorities in the 1950s, in accordance with their internationally recognized right to return.
The Bedouin communities say that their second option would be for Israeli authorities to recognize their rights to remain in their current homes, connect them to water, electricity and road networks, and lift arbitrary restrictions on their movement. Due to these restrictions, many Bedouin must buy animal fodder for sheep and goats that they were formerly able to graze, forcing them to sell their livestock.
As the final option, the Bedouin would be willing to negotiate the possibility of relocating again, if the Civil Administration treated them as equal negotiating partners.
Major-General Eitan Dangot, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, visited the Khan al-Ahmar community last week, and reportedly promised residents that that their homes and community school would not be demolished, and that they would not be transferred to the site next to the garbage dump. He said that the community would be moved to a different site in the occupied West Bank.
But Amnesty International said that was not enough.
"Israeli military officials are putting a gloss on their plans by portraying them as a way of providing Bedouin with basic amenities such as water and electricity, but in fact such forcible relocation of Bedouin would merely perpetuate years of dispossession and discrimination AND COULD CONSTITUTE A WAR CRIME," said Ann Harrison.
"Informal promises are not enough for these communities. The Israeli Minister of Defence must issue a formal cancellation of this policy."
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israel-cancel-plan-forcibly-displace-jahalin-bedouin-communities-2012-02-08

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:54 AM

Out of date info again Jim.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/bedouin-community-wins-reprieve-from-forcible-relocation-to-jerusalem-garbage-dump-1.411248

Israel is not like nearby states.
Everyone has rights and access to law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:11 AM

The Israelis have not abandoned their plans to move the Bedouin next to A TOXIC DUMP - "The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage." but have possibly yielded to pressure due to the threat of being prosecuted for war crimes
The fact that they are still considering the plan makes them potential rather than actual war criminals (in this case alone - they have already committed war crimes).
The fact that they should consider carrying out such a murderous act, even after having been warned they they might be prosecuted for committing a war crime, says all that needs be said on the nature of the Israeli regime.
The Bedouin will have no final say in the decision.
Israel is indeed "not like nearby states" - it is a terrorist state with nuclear weapons.
This thread becomes yet another exercise in feeding the fanatic.
Jim Carroll

"The Bedouin, who are from the Jahalin tribe, will be given the opportunity to review and comment on the new proposal but will not be consulted before it is drawn up, Palestinian sources said."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:31 AM

Not toxic waste Jim.
Just garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:41 AM

Are you really such a heartless bastard as to condone the removal of a whole community from their traditional lands to a TOXIC DUMP
"The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage." - this description of the dump is from that well known Antisemitic group, THE ISRAELI MINISTRY OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
You really have any abandoned any vestige of self respect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:12 AM

Not toxic, just garbage, and it is not going to happen anyway, and the dump is due to close this year.
Another hyped up non-issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:31 AM

You really are going to condone the depositing of a whole community adjacent to a rubbish dump, aren't you?
Methane if it gets into the water supply becomes toxic
If it is mixed with other gasses it becomes toxic
Children playing on or near such rubbish dumps are liable to be hurt and poisoned - the Israeli Ministry for the Environment has stated that the dump "is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires"
The Amnesty report contains the following, which you have carefully forgotten to mention, "Although disposal of waste at the site is due to cease later this year, no rehabilitation plan has been agreed, which means that the environmental hazards will likely remain for years."
The toxicity of a site this size, in fact will remain in the ground for decades.
This is how much of a 'non event' this potential war crime is.
I have wondered in the past whether you could possibly sink any lower in your defence of a terrorist state and your racist crusades - you continue to surprise me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:44 AM

People have to live near garbage dumps here.
All those hazards are easily overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:02 AM

You are passing judgement on a whole ethnic group on the basis of one crime by a group of far-Right football hooligans.

What "ethnic group" was I passing judgement on? And "one crime"?? It's a running sore in Israeli football, not a single incident.

If I put up a post condemning racist chanting at an English footie match, would you immediately jump down my throat and claim that I was demonising a "whole ethnic group"? So what's different here? You think I'm chomping at the bit to demonise Jews, is that it? Paranoia of the highest order, Keith, I'm afraid. Just like all those militant Zionist bedfellows of yours, you want to mark out any criticism of Israel as criticism of Jews and shout it down. First you try to trivialise my link, then you try to accuse me of passing judgement on all Jews. Just for once, why can't you do the honest thing and admit that there is a problem of discrimination against Arabs in Israel and that the link revealed one of its instances.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:06 AM

Also they are exempted from compulsory military service.

And why do you suppose Israel needs compulsory military service?

Yes, they are exempted, but they can join if they like. The numbers who choose to join are extremely low. That say anything to you about how Arabs in Israel feel thoroughly disenfranchised, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

Arabs are not disenfranchised.
They have the same voting rights and every other right as Jews.

It was a single incident, not a running sore.
Every team has Arab players.
Check your headline, "Israelis shocked by..."
The leadership of the country were moved to denounce it.

"Condemnation of the hardcore fans' behaviour has been swift and harsh.
Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Friday's apparent arson attack was "shameful", adding: "The Jewish people, [who have] suffered boycotts and persecution, should be a light unto other nations."

Beitar's manager, Itzhik Kornfein, told Israel Radio on Friday: "This has gone beyond sports and this has ramifications for Israeli society and for how we look to the world."

Earlier, President Shimon Peres said the entire country was shocked, and former prime minister Ehud Olmert, a Beitar fan for more than 40 years, said that he would no longer attend matches because of fans' behaviour. "Ultimately, this is a matter that concerns all of us. Either we remove this group of racists from our field and cut it off from the team, or we are all like them. Until that happens, I will not go to games," he wrote."

Did you not read your own link Steve?
Why SO DESPERATE to demonize Israel that you have to make shit up?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 12:33 PM

""But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it?
No. The subject was persecution of Bedouin.""

No, the subject was an incursion into Syria and the destruction of Syrian Personnel and Equipment, on the flimsiest of excuses that the equipment was arms for Hezbollah, which has not as yet been proved to be the case.

Or rather that's what it was until the volume of evidence showing precedents for such Israeli behaviour became too strong for you to handle, and you ran for cover in your long established fashion by scattering blame everywhere else but where it belongs.

Egypt is evil, Syria is evil, Hezbollah and Lebanon is evil, Iran is too, and on and on and on ad nauseam, but Israel is a heaven for all its citizens and it is whiter than white and squeaky clean in the way it treats its neighbours...........and that's the point where nausea really sets in.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:25 PM

We seem to have established that moving whole communities to toxic garbage dumps is a "hyped up non-issue."
Let's try this one on equality.
Jim Carroll
"While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:
The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority's awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation.[174]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM

Here you are, Keith. From last April, nothing to do with this latest incident.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/it-s-time-to-intervene-against-racism-in-israeli-soccer-1.422040

Only in Israeli soccer can a club block Arabs from joining its ranks, and harsh violence is treated solely as a disciplinary infraction, to be handled by the Israel Football Association's internal court. The anarchy and lack of police enforcement have turned Israeli soccer into a source of violence, racism and hatred, and has even started to attract dubious characters, who at times manage the teams.

The IFA is subordinate to international sports institutions, such as UEFA, the Union of European Football Associations, and FIFA, the international association, and vehemently refuses the involvement of the Culture and Sports Ministry. But after several years in which Culture and Sports Minister Limor Livnat has proven incapable of getting rid of the rot that has penetrated Israeli soccer, it's time for her to get into the thick of things.

She must adopt the model that has been successfully used in Britain, which combines persistent, preventive police action against hooligans and tough sentences against violent fans. The State of Israel cannot allow a situation in which a sport avidly followed by hundreds of thousands of people, among them many youngsters, turns into an untreatable abscess of racism and violence.

Not demonisation, not made-up shit, Keith. Concern expressed by reasonable people who want to face the truth of a long-time endemic culture in Israel. We tackled it here in the UK. Israel are thirty years behind us. You have to wonder if they have the will.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:45 PM

Arabs are not disenfranchised.

I didn't say there were. I said that they might feel disenfranchised. Surely you didn't think I just meant whether they get to vote or not. The fact that you can't tell the difference either means you're having a bloody bad day or that you are being wilfully stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM

INEQUALITY REPORT -THE PALESTINIAN ARAB MINORITY IN ISRAEL

MAIN FINDINGS

THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK OF INEQUALITY
Inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel span all fields of public life and have persisted over Lime. Direct and indirect discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel is ingrained in the legal system and in governmental practice.
The right to equality and freedom from discrimination is not explicitly enshrined in Israeli law as a constitutional right, nor is it protected by statute. While Supreme Court justices have interpreted The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty as comprising the principle of equality, this fundamental right is currentiy protected by judicial interpretation alone.
The definition of the State of Israel as a Jewish state makes inequality and discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel a reality and a political project. The pairing of "Jewish" and "democratic" both codifies discrimination against non-Jewish citizens and impedes the realization of full equality.
Numerous groups of Palestinian citizens of Israel face "compound discrimination" or multiple forms of discrimination on the basis of both their national belonging as Arabs/Palestinians and their membership in one or more other distinct subgroups, such as women, the disabled and the elderly.
More than 30 main laws discriminate, directly or indirectly, against Palestinian citizens of Israel, and the current government coalition has proposed a flood of new racist and discriminatory bills which are at various stages in the legislative process.

CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS
Palestinian citizens of Israel are afforded differential and unequal treatment under Israeli law in the field of citizenship rights. The most important immigration and nationality laws—including the Law of Return (1950) and the Citizenship Law (1952) —privilege Jews and Jewish immigration.
If the spouse of a Palestinian citizen of Israel is a Palestinian resident of the OPT, it has been virtually impossible for him or her to gain residency or citizenship status in Israel since May 2002. This ban on family unification is totally disproportionate to the alleged security reasons cited by Israel to justify it; rather, it is motivated by the state's desire to maintain a Jewish demographic majority.
A new law makes it possible to strip Israeli citizenship for various reasons related to alleged "disloyalty" to the state or "breach of trust", indirectly targeting the citizenship rights of Palestinian citizens. Several attempts to pass additional laws that grant the authority to revoke citizenship and impose further loyalty oaths are currently pending in the Knesset.

INCOME/POVERTY
Arab families are greatly over-represented among Israel's poor: over half of Arab families in Israel are classified as poor, compared to an average poverty rate of one-fifth among all families in Israel. Arab towns and villages are heavily over-represented in the lowest socio-economic rankings, and the unrecognized Arab Bedouin villages in the Naqab are the poorest communities in the state.
Gaps in income and poverty rates are directly related to institutional discrimination against Arab citizens in Israel.
Redistribution of resources and social welfare
Although the right to equality demands that states take positive steps to bridge the gaps between the various population groups, the State of Israel actively seeks to promote and direct resources to Jewish citizens as a privileged majority within the "Jewish State". In many policy areas, including the designation of "National Priority Areas" and the use of the military-service criterion to allocate resources, the state actively preserves and perpetuates inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel.
The state has consistently failed to take adequate and effective action to address the phenomenon of absolute and relative poverty among the Arab minority in Israel. Where it has initiated development programs targeting the Arab minority, such as the "Multi-Year Plan", the state has tended to implement them partially, gradually, or not at all.
Direct state policy measures to reduce poverty disproportionately target Jewish citizens, with the result that poverty rates have fallen far more sharply among Jewish citizens than among their Arab counterparts, and inequalities have consequently persisted.

EMPLOYMENT
Palestinian citizens of Israel often face discrimination in work opportunities, pay and conditions, both because of the inadequate implementation of equal-opportunity legislation and because of entrenched structural barriers, which particularly affect women, and include poor or non-existent public transportation, a lack of industrial zones, and a shortage of state-run daycare centers. Palestinian citizens are also excluded from the labor force by the use of the military-service criterion as a condition for acceptance for employment, often when there is no connection between the nature of the work and military experience.
Unemployment rates remain significantly higher among Arab than among Jewish citizens, and the rate of labor-force participation among Palestinian women citizens of Israel, at just about 20 %, is among the lowest in the world.
Palestinian citizens of Israel in general, and women in particular, continue to be sorely underrepresented in the civil service, the largest employer in Israel (in total, Arabs constitute just around 6% of all civil service employees), despite affirmative-action legislation stipulating fair representation for the Arab minority and for women.
The lack of development and investment in Arab towns and villages inside Israel and the unexploited or under-exploited human resources of the members of the Palestinian minority inhibit the growth of the Israeli economy. The lost potential to Israel's economy has been estimated at around US$ 8 billion per year by the Organisation for Economic Co¬operation and Development (OECD).

http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:26 PM

Don.

No, the subject was an incursion into Syria and the destruction of Syrian Personnel and Equipment,

No Don.
I wanted to keep to that subject because the action was legitimate and justified.
For the same reason all your mates needed to change it, and they won.
So we did end up discussing Bedouin persecution and you and your mates really did not want it mentioned that the ones in Israel are the lucky ones.
Israel is a heaven for all its citizens and it is whiter than white
Never claimed any of that.
Just that it is much better than its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:46 PM

We seem to have established that moving whole communities to toxic garbage dumps is a "hyped up non-issue."

It certainly is!
It is an ordinary garbage dump such as thousands of Brits, including neighbours and friends, live near in perfect safety.
Because all are equal under the law, the Bedouin were able to use the courts to get the move prevented anyway.
And anyway, anyone harmed by a badly maintained dump would be able to sue those responsible for ruinous compensation.

It really is just a hyped up non-issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:48 PM

Steve, there are football hooligans or equivalent in every country.
You would not judge any other country by its football hooligans, (Scotland?! Belgium?) so why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:52 PM

Jim you could make a list like that about any country.
Hispanics and Blacks in US.
Travellers in Ireland.
Jews and Christians in any Arab country.
Why single out Israel?

At least in Israel the law is unequivocal.
All are equal under the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:53 PM

Jeri, must I marry all this mob?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:10 PM

This is not just football hooliganism, Keith. It is football crowd racism and it is directed at Arabs and it is endemic in Israeli football. I've given you enough demonstration of that. Deny it if you want, but you'd be wrong. Yes it happened here (note past tense). We dealt with it and, bar a few isolated relatively minor incidents, which are always squashed and dealt with severely, it is now the exception. So much so that even minor outbursts such as one man in the crowd making monkey noises or a footballer making an unpleasant remark to another are not only stamped on but also make big news. Israel are where we were 30 years ago and, apart from the formulaic expressions of disgust from one or two politicians, nothing is done. I suppose a very large number of Israeli football fans think it's OK to behave like that and I don't suppose they'd worry too much about behaving the same discriminatory way in other areas of life. There's plenty of testimony from Arab residents of Israel to confirm that. A very large number of Israeli citizens may not be racist, but the nation of Israel as a whole is one of the most racist nations on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:52 AM

Israel as a whole is one of the most racist nations on the planet.
This tells us more about you than Israel.
You made up your mind at an early age and see only that which confirms your prejudice.
Israel has equality and anti-discrimination laws which alone make it better than neighbours who deny ctizenship to minorities like Bedouin and Palestinians and legally discriminate against them in employment, housing etc.

Where did those laws come from.
Those racist Israelis demanded them from their leaders and even the most Right wing parties dare not challenge them.
So why single out Israel.

After 80 years of Arabs killing ordinary Jews and their children you would expect Israel to be racist, but mostly they are not.
So why single out Israel.

Racism in football is found globally, so why single out Israel?

Football supporters are a tiny minority of Israelis, and the racists a smaller group still.
It is bigotted prejudice to denounce all Israeli Jews as racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:58 AM

Guardian headline last week.
"Milan friendly abandoned after players protest against racist chants"
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:59 AM

Guardian today.
"Massimo Moratti sorry for Inter fans' racist abuse of Mario Balotelli"
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:03 AM

11 January 2013 19:52. Anzhi Makhachkala defender Christopher Samba believes the issue of racism is 'killing the game'.
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 04:21 AM

This thread sums up your whole attitude to humanity.
You have been presented with a mass of evidence of Israeli atrocities, war crimes, mass murder, the fascism of taking whole community and moving them onto a toxic waste dump, or displacing them in order to expend their own power and influence, built-in inequalities towards non-Jews, the regular slaughter of non-combatants - men, women and children - old and young, destruction of homes, the horrendous use of chemicals on ordinary citizens, destruction of hospitals and schools, the persecution and starvation of a whole nation in pursuit of their land,.....
You have accused groups like the UN and Amnesty of Anti Semitism because they have protested the war crimes being committed which are being defended by US vetos, supported by Britain and all the other gofers.
You have described three thousand murdered refugees as "the enemy", in order to explain away Israel's part in their massacre.
Now you totally ignore an officially and carefully carried out report on the Apartheid-like built-in inequalities of the Israeli state, totally at odds with your own land-flowing-with-milk-and-and honey description of what is really happening there.
YOU OFFER NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER TO YOUR VICIOUSLY DISHONEST CLAIMS, JUST DENIAL.
THERE WAS A TIME WHEN YOU'D HIDE BEHIND CAREFULLY SELECTED CUT-'N-PASTES, (SOMETIMES DOCTORED, BUT AT LEAST YOU'D PUT IN SOME EFFORT INTO SEARCHING THEM OUT). NOW YOU SEEM TO HAVE ABANDONED EVEN THAT, REPLACING THEM WITH EXCUSES OF YOUR OWN INVENTION
You show not a shred of humanity for the victims of Israeli terror - they are, in your own words, "the enemy" and deserving of ill treatment and slaughter.
You show no personal understanding or even interest in the subjects under discussion, which you turn into a war of attrition which you will filibust out of existence until your 'last man standing' approach drives away those genuinely interested and concerned who do bring some knowledge and humanity.
You don't even appear to be interested in the subjects you take over and destroy; if you were, you'd show some fore-knowledge - Travellers, British Muslims, victims of Syrian killers, even Ireland, which you claim to have some connection with - you appear to have neither feeling, understanding nor interest in the mass of humanity that you insult by using as a platform for your attention-seeking ego-tripping.
I said earlier that the only reason for taking part in these threads is to allow you to show us what a vacuously inhuman individual you are, but you seem to manage that without anybody's help nowadays.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:00 AM

I offer objectivity Jim.
Why call it a toxic waste dump when it is not?
It is dishonest.

That massive spew of hate against me, but not one single challenge to anything I have said, because it is all honest, objective and true.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:01 AM

"I offer objectivity Jim."
You offer nothing Keith other than race or culture hatred, your bigoted defence could not in a thousand years be described as "objective"
Anything that (admitted by the state authorities, and by scientist - look up the definition) poisons water is TOXIC - Children playing on or near rubbish dumps of that type and size could easily be poisoned that makes it TOXIC - show how this isn't the case.
The forcible moving of an entire ethnic group to an area where they are likely to be poisoned and where, even if this was not the case, is STATE FASCISM .
"It is dishonest."
No Keith; dishonesty is ignoring researched information, or denying it out of hand without proof - you do that constantly - especially on the last couple of threads - this one in particular where you have not even tried to offer either knowledge nor documented proof.
"hate against me"
I don't hate you Keith - I don't know you, nor do I want to.
I detest the racism and murderous bigotry that you persistently defend.
I also detest what you have done to this forum. Between us we have destroyed thread after thread - I realise my part in this and apologise - I do not apologise for being concerned enough for trying to stop your using Mudcat as a racist soapbox, which is what I have responded to -rabbit-in-headlights.
You, on the other hand, refuse to acknowledge what damage we have done between us - see your gobsmacking postings to the 'Mudcat DISCUSSION@ thread - unbelievable arrogance!!
I defy anybody here to read through the threads that you have dominated and filibusted and claim that your input has not been racist or bigoted - starting with this one and going on tgo your Muslim prejudice, Traveller signs, Syria... et al efforts.
Incidently - you ask why Israel - this forum is about Israel - that is what we are discussing.
But far more importantly, I can think of no greater insult to the dead and Auschwitz and Balsen.... for a mainly Jewish state to behave in the same manner to other races as that which sent six million Jews to the gas chambers - that is what you have persistently defended here.
And you have the nerve to call us Antisemites!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM

There are dumps for toxic waste, and there are ordinary garbage dumps like this one.

Those responsible for the dumps have to make them safe for the neighbours or they get dragged through the courts.

It is not a whole ethnic group being moved.
How big would the dump have to be?
Try to be rational and objective, and stop trying to make it personal again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:14 AM

I defy anybody here to read through the threads that you have dominated and filibusted and claim that your input has not been racist or bigoted

On those threads people did just that Jim.
Remember?
There is no need to make these debates personal.
Just challenge what is posted instead of attacking the poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:21 PM

It is bigotted prejudice [sic] to denounce all Israeli Jews as racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Yes, it would be had I done it. But I didn't, did I.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:37 PM

""There is no need to make these debates personal.
Just challenge what is posted instead of attacking the poster.""

There is a very good idea. How about you putting your money where your mouth is and responding to what is posted instead of dismissing or ignoring it to chant your mindless "Israel is good, Israel does no wrong, and anyway everybody else is worse" mantra?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 01:19 PM

In former posts I maintained that there were some Israelis who didn't go along with the knee-jerk AIPAC propaganda or the Netanyahu administration. There are enlightened people in Israel who see what their government is doing as a dead-end street.
No country has been able to maintain its reputation as an occupier forever. History will reveal their dictatorial status.

The Palestinians are being persecuted by the Netanyahu regime. The evidence is abundant for this and only those who have a bias are in denial about this.

In must be restated that Judaism is a religion and that this tends to obscure a reasoned approach to the resolution of this issue. You have hot-headed proponents of Israel yelling a lot now as their government's actions are being disclosed internationally. There are many of Jewish heritage or background who condemn Israel's aggression.
Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Norman Finkelstein, Uri Avnery, and others both religious and non-religious are becoming more vocal. Boycott, Sanctions and Disinvestment is one way to deal with Israel's intransigence.

This is not an issue of taking sides. The former violence on the Hamas side has to be taken into account but at the moment, Palestinians have opted for non-violent resistance to make their case. Israel responds by tyrannical violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM

Sorry Steve.
It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as most racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Don, If I missed something it was not deliberate.
I have been fielding a mass of stuff from you three.
Post it again please.

Stringsinger, there has always been vigorous dissent and opposition in Israel.
It is called democracy, and it is the only one around there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:01 PM

Keith said:

It is bigotted prejudice [sic] to denounce all Israeli Jews as racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

But now Keith, realising that this antisemitism slur (from a man who claims he never gets personal) bears not a shred of truth, says this:

It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as most racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

I actually said that Israel is one of the most racist countries.

And I've repeatedly pointed out that the incident in question was not isolated. I showed that football racism is endemic in Israel. And I'm a football fanatic myself (though I'm keeping quiet about Liverpool after last night). If you attend a match and indulge in racist chanting or attacks, you are a fanatic all right but you are not a football fanatic. This is your third or fourth attempt to try to sidestep this issue by pretending it's only footie/an isolated incident/a tiny minority/it's all worse somewhere else/it's just football fanatics. Keith, this has been going on for decades. It has not been addressed. The racism - and racist violence - is directed against Arabs. I think there's evidence here that it shows the state doesn't take racism against Arabs seriously. And why should anyone be surprised by that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:10 PM

It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as one of the most racist in the world because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:20 PM

""Don, If I missed something it was not deliberate.
I have been fielding a mass of stuff from you three.
Post it again please.""

IF you missed something? If it weren't so bloody consistent I might laugh about that.

And what precisely killed your last servant?

That material doesn't evaporate. It is still exactly where I left it and you skipped past it.

Go look, if you are interested, which I doubt.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Jim Hawkins
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:39 PM

The Middle East has given the world three intolerant and xenophobic religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - that the world would be much better off without.

Modern Judaism, or Zionism, follows the mythical example of Joshua, taking land by force and genocide. Among the first victims of the Christian Crusades were other Christians, Semites who happened to look like Arabs. The Koran can be interpreted to inspire suicidal murderers with the promise of virgins in Paradise.

All three play the religion card when criticized, especially the Jews.

All are inspired by a common God who is nothing more than an invisible friend, albeit a malevolent and hateful figment of the collective imagination of past millennia.

Somehow the concept of do-as-you-would-be-done-by has been lost in translation. A plague on all their houses!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:17 PM

GENEVA | Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:43pm EST

(Reuters) - U.N. human rights investigators called on Israel on Thursday to halt settlement expansion and withdraw all half a million Jewish settlers from the occupied West Bank, saying that its practices could be subject to prosecution as possible war crimes.

A three-member U.N. panel said private companies should stop working in the settlements if their work adversely affected the human rights of Palestinians, and urged member states to ensure companies respected human rights.

"Israel must cease settlement activities and provide adequate, prompt and effective remedy to the victims of violations of human rights," Christine Chanet, a French judge who led the U.N. inquiry, told a news conference.

The settlements contravened the Fourth Geneva Convention forbidding the transfer of civilian populations into occupied territory and could amount to war crimes that fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC), the United Nations report said.

"To transfer its own population into an occupied territory is prohibited because it is an obstacle to the exercise of the right to self-determination," Chanet said.

About 250 settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been established since the 1967 Middle East war and they hold an estimated 520,000 settlers, according to the U.N. report. The settlements impede Palestinian access to water and farmland.

The settlements were "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination," it said.

After the General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians' status at the world body, Israel said it would build 3,000 additional settler homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - areas Palestinians want for a future state, along with the Gaza Strip.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:49 PM

That's right, Freda. But just watch the bleating from Israel and/or the US when somebody else defies the UN. North Korea this very day, for example (who I do not defend, I hasten to add - I make the point simply to show the sheer hypocrisy of the US/Israel axis). Or when Iran "threatens" to have a nuclear weapon or two...


It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as one of the most racist in the world because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Hello, we seem to have a parrot in the house. No, wait a minute... parrots may keep repeating themselves, just like Keith, but at least they don't do it in the hope of making what they're saying more true...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:44 AM

Don, I have gone right through the thread but found nothing.
I think and believe that I have replied to all points put.
I think and believe that your claim is malicious.
If you want my take on something, don't play games, put it up.

Steve, parrots repeat the same thing.
I modified my statement each time to comply with your objection to the wording.
If you have no more objections to the wording, please reply to the substance.

Freda, do you have a comment on the subject of the OP?
To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM

"Don, I have gone right through the thread but found nothing.
I think and believe that I have replied to all points put.
I think and believe that your claim is malicious.
If you want my take on something, don't play games, put it up."
This is arrogance in the extreme - why on earth should Don, or anybody "put up" anything for somebody who displays both an ignorance and a disinterest in this subject.
You have "replied to" nothing - you have simply DENIED the evidence put up by others - ALL THE EVIDENCE.
You seem to have appointed yourself as some sort of arbiter on a subject on which you have no knowledge whatever, indicating that you have also have no interest either.
Your sole input here has been to dismiss out of hand and without evidence, the knowledge other contributors obviously possess, and to either deny again without evidenc), or totally ignore reports, newspaper articles, eye witness accounts, even statements by Israeli government bodies... that others have taken the trouble to offer to this discussion.
YOU HAVE NEITHER PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THIS SUBJECT, NOR THE ENERGY OR INTELLIGENCE TO GO AND ARM YOURSELF WITH ANY         
Yet you have the astounding arrogance to ask.
"Don, If I missed something it was not deliberate.
I have been fielding a mass of stuff from you three.
Post it again please."
You have been "fielding" nothing - if this is not the case, show us one scrap of credible evidence that you have presented other than 'Israel said they didn't do it your honour'.
"I think and believe that I have replied to all points put."
You have ignored or denied every single scrap of evidence of Israel's war crimes and abuses out of hand (without even bothering your arse to provide any contrary evidence of your own).
You are not an 'expert witness', you are both arrogant and lazy enough to demand that people bring their opinions to you for your consideration - don't psychiatrists have a word for that?
One again you have dominated a subject on which you know nothing whatever - your postings to date tot up to approaching 90 - sometimes in blocks of two, three, four, even five on one occasion - a little short of three times more than any other single contributor here.
"Freda, do you have a comment on the subject of the OP?"
And please don't talk down to other members of this forum who obviously have far more knowledge, intelligence and interest in these subjects than you do - just as you show clearly that you have no understanding of the subject, neither are you a chairmen of this discussion, so please don't attempt to pretend you have the authority or cudos to make demands here.
And by the way - please do not claim this to be a personal attack - it is a comment on your behaviour here and on this forum as a whole - others have pointed this out to you, here and elsewhere and it appears to be deteriorating with every thread you participate in.
But please don't despair - as serious as your case seems to be, help may be available, even at this late stage!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

Sorry about all the red - finger slipped
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:12 AM

That happens a lot Jim.
I always thought it was deliberate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM

"That happens a lot Jim.
I always thought it was deliberate"
That is an extremely small minded way of avoiding the points purt to you
Answer the questions - mine and everybody else's
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:34 AM

OP Keith, do you mean Other Party?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:50 AM

Sorry Freda.
I meant the opening post of this thread.

Jim, if you want me to respond to something do not bury it in screenfulls of multicoloured text.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:06 AM

"Jim, if you want me to respond to something do not bury it in screenfulls of multicoloured text."
I do not want you to reply to anything - your opinion is of no interest to me whatever.
I do want you justify the fact that you one again you totally dominate a subject on which you have no knowledge whatever, and will, because of your insistence on having the last word, eventually run it into the ground.
I want you to justify your behavior in lying about other people's input into this tread while claiming that you have answered all the questions put to you, you have brought nothing of any interest or substance to this subject.
And most of all I WANT YOU TO STOP ATTEMPTING TO CONTROL THIS THREAD BY TELLING OTHERS HOW TO MAKE YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS - YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY HERE - DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME HOW TO MAKE MY POSTINGS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:16 AM

Re what I think of Palestinians, I condemn Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which conduct attacks on Israel. But I also am equally concerned about Israeli attacks in Palestine.

I don't condemn individual Jews for the actions of their leaders, just as I don't condemn individual Palestinians for the actions of those who choose violence. But I support and respect those Israelis, Palestinians and international peace workers in the area, who act or speak out for peace in the region.

I appreciate I'm lucky to live in a safe country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:24 AM

Thanks Freda. I feel exactly the same, but I do feel that the Israeli action that instigated this thread was justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:30 AM

Re what I think of Palestinians, I condemn Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad, when they conduct attacks on Israeli civilians. But, equally, I condemn Israeli land-grabs as well as attacks in Palestine and am appalled by the routine disproportionate response of the IDF and the wanton destruction of innocent Palestinian civilians and their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:13 AM

""Don, I have gone right through the thread but found nothing.
I think and believe that I have replied to all points put.
I think and believe that your claim is malicious.
If you want my take on something, don't play games, put it up.""

I have posted numerous accounts, but the most important are the ones I have VERY CLEARLY stated as being from Associated Press via ABC News.

The closest you came to answering ANY of the points therein was your usual mantra "Not true, and anyway Egypt, Syria, Iran (delete inapplicable) is far worse"

You never answer points put to you. You trot out the same tired platitudinous repetition of your standard mantra, "Israel cannot ever be criticised because they are never wrong"

It is useless to deny it when it is obvious throughout every thread you post to.

And to cap it all off, you've just done the self same thing to Freda, ignoring the facts she presented, and telling her off for changing the subject, you arrogant twerp, something that you were busy doing last time I addressed you.

If you really can't find the posts you ignored, try opening your eyes while looking. I'm told that this can be surprisingly effective. I won't suggest opening the mind, as you are clearly incapable of doing so.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:20 AM

""Thanks Freda. I feel exactly the same, but I do feel that the Israeli action that instigated this thread was justified.""

You feel that any and every Israeli action is justified, as your posting record on numerous threads clearly shows.

That's why a hollow laugh is the only possible response to your ludicrous claim to share Freda's properly balanced point of view.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:51 PM

Don I still can not find a point of yours that I have missed.
If there REALLY is one, stop playing games and tell us what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 06:54 AM

Trouble is Keith, I spend time reposting what you didn't bother to read and digest, and didn't answer in any comprehensible way, merely nitpicking a single phrase or sentence to deny, and what happens?

The definition of insanity is constantly repeating an experiment in the hope of getting different results.

I'm not going to do it, because I am not the one who is playing games, and I am well aware that you don't want it repeated so that you might answer, but merely to avoid answering as before.

If you want it, GO LOOK FOR IT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM

So you COULD say what I missed, but you don't want to.
Who will believe that?

If I have missed something say what it is and put me on the spot.
But you can't.
The claim was malicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

"The claim was malicious."
The claim has been made by many people with whom you have debated (sic) that you refuse to read what people place before you, - you have a long reputation of ignoring what people put up because it doesn't suit your case.
You have either denied without proof, or totally ignored anything that doesn't suit your case, then you have gone on to claim that posters haven't provided proof.
This has become an increasingly habitual practice of yours lately.
Should Don bother (I certainly wouldn't) to put up his evidence again, it will be totally ignored, you will continue to filibust this thread and eventually claim that nobody has put up anything to back up their arguments.
This forum is scattered with threads on which you have done this - your efforts on the 'Traveller Signs' thread was breathtaking.
Honesty doesn't appear to be one of your virtues, though, going by your practice of denying things that are in full view for all to see, stupidity certainly is!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:13 AM

GREG AND KENDALL.....READ THIS

You two crack me up.....and btw, is "crack up" a pornographic expression?   LOL.....


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:15 AM

Do you know what I missed then Jim?
Embarrass me.
Post it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:51 AM

Hey, Spaw-

Good old Wendell Phillips, eh? He never gets the credit he deserves.

Be well-

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM

Don't want to "embarrass" you Keith - you're making a far better job of showing yourself as a rabid fanatic than any of us possibly could.
However, as with my offer to Bruce (which he sadly ignored), I'll do a deal with you.
Below is a list of links which you have ignored, or dismissed as "off topic", gullibility on my part, or irrelevant (I particularly liked the description of moving the Bedouins to a toxic site as a "hyped up non-issue")
The list does not include the evidence that came without links; that would easily more than double the total.
You have set yourself up as the proud defender of the Israeli regime and have claimed to have responded to every point.
The deal is - wait for it - I will happily point out Don's input to this thread if you show us how you have addressed this evidence.
I'm feeling in a particularly generous mood today - must have been that tremendous blast of music last night!
Yours in anticipation.
Jim Carroll

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/#ixzz2JxSAeUMd
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/19/262446/israels-american-license-for-genocide/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement
http://www.davidsheen.com/racism/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_acfNfFkgw
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2012/10/23/survey-of-israeli-racism-58-of-jews-label-their-state-apartheid/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/briefing-papers/1230-israels-discrimination-against-its-arab-citizens
http://electronicintifada.net/content/un-body-appalled-israels-racial-segregation-policies/11065
http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=296430
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3480345,00.html
http://www.policymic.com/articles/21819/women-s-rights-in-israel-girls-as-young-as-3-face-gender-discrimination
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israeli-rabbis-ban-home-sale-and-rental-non-jews-2010-12-07
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33429.htm
http://www.sciforums.com/BBC-on-Israel-s-Negev-Bedouin-policy-shame-t-71060.html
http://palsolidarity.org/2011/12/khan-al-ahmar-forced-expulsion-of-bedouins-from-area-c/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/jun/17/egypt-bedouin-risk-of-exclusion-citizenship-rights
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israel-cancel-plan-forcibly-displace-jahalin-bedouin-communities-2012-02-08
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:50 AM

Now he'll refuse until you make 'em into blue clickies Jim.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM

Well, y'all can natter at Keith to your hearts' content, but the fact remains that Israel was not condemned by the UN for the attack on Syria. The OP "stretched" the truth a little, and all you straight-forward folks who have chosen to fall in line as soon as Israel is mentioned in any context--whether it's true or not--make your subsequent arguments shallower than they need be.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:38 AM

Jim and Don, none of that appeared on this thread.
I have never even been in a discussion of them.

Don, are you no longer claiming I have missed stuff on this thread?

You have both been caught being dishonest again.

"I have posted numerous accounts, but the most important are the ones I have VERY CLEARLY stated as being from Associated Press via ABC News."

Yes, and I responded.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:54 AM

"Not true", or "Didn't happen", or "They closed the tunnels", are not answers, they avoid answering.

You routinely post such nonsensical responses to avoid having to justify your attitudes to a multitude of subjects.

A full screen of evidence that there is more than one possible reason gets the response "They closed the tumnnels".

Duhh! We knew that F**Kwit, we were discussing why, and who was responsible.

What do you believe was the constructive contribution to that discussion resulting from your inane comment?

Dishonesty is very much a part of your bag of tricks, not ours. You don't even post opinion any more, just denial, and your input has become a pathetic waste of hot air.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 11:31 AM

Jim and Don, none of that appeared on this thread.
Keith - every single link was cut'n pasted from higher up the thread.
Don't you ever get tired of lying in public?
It's very true that you have never been near them - if you mean you never bothered to read them.
As I said, ignored them; you dismissed them out of hand without proof, - several you responded to as anti-Israeli (implying Antisemitic, one you described as "gullible" and the Bedouin-to-toxic site you described an an "over-hyped non event (after described in glowing terms how well they were treated).
Stupidity = lying with the proof in front of you.
I take it we have no deal then?
999
"who have chosen to fall in line as soon as Israel is mentioned in any context"
Perhaps you'd like to give an opinion on Sabra/Shatila (an example of poor little Israel's take on democracy!
Don
Must learn to do the blue clickies.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM

Jim, Don accused me of missing points he had made.
I had missed none.
I always said that a thirty year old massacre of Arabs by Arabs was nothing to do with this discussion, and I have read everything you have ever posted on that subject over the years.

Don"They closed the tunnels".

Duhh! We knew that F**Kwit, we were discussing why, and who was responsible.

I have no way of knowing, anymore than you or Jim.
The government and security services and military of Egypt have formed a firm impression over the last seven months.
We do not know what it is, but it drove them to close and flood all the tunnels from Gaza.
They obviously do not think it was Mossad!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 05:01 PM

Anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist are two different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:38 PM

""but the fact remains that Israel was not condemned by the UN""

TRUE!!....And we all know why!   

The USA vetoes any UN move to bring Israel to heel, because it is terrified of the PRO Israel Zionist lobby inside its borders.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:56 PM

""I have no way of knowing, anymore than you or Jim.
The government and security services and military of Egypt have formed a firm impression over the last seven months.
We do not know what it is, but it drove them to close and flood all the tunnels from Gaza.
They obviously do not think it was Mossad!""

At last!! A statement from Keith A that has the ring of truth!!....ABOUT BLOODY TIME!

He ""has no way of knowing, anymore than myself or Jim""

Yet he has decided that his lack of knowledge means Israel were not involved and has, without such knowledge, categorically stated, AS A FACT, his opinion, unsupported by any such knowledge, that Hamas were responsible.

Of course, if Mossad had masterminded a scheme to provide such an excuse to lock down Gaza, Egypt would have responded in the same manner exactly, which is precisely what the Muslim Brotherhood have claimed to have happened.

But Keith, of course, knows better. His idols would never do such a thing, would they?

NEWSWFLASH!!.....They've DONE WORSE, which is where the relevance of Sabra/Shatila comes into play,......as proof that they have DONE MUCH WORSE!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:11 PM

TRUE!!....And we all know why!   

The USA vetoes any UN move to bring Israel to heel, because it is terrified of the PRO Israel Zionist lobby inside its borders.
US can only veto Security Council resolutions.
There is nothing to stop Ki Moon making a personal criticism or anyone within UN staring a debate.
No-one has this time.

Yet he has decided that his lack of knowledge means Israel were not involved and has, without such knowledge, categorically stated, AS A FACT, his opinion, unsupported by any such knowledge, that Hamas were responsible.
No.
I just pointed out that Egypt felt it necessary to close and flood all the tunnels from Gaza. A drastic step.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:03 AM

Am I to take it that you still haven't read the links?
I know what your personal outlook on life is and I detest it.
I know how you regard entire cultures and races; I've told you what I think of that, many times.
I know how you regard humanity - the ones you don't like should be moved to toxic rubbish dumps (only don't call them toxic)
If you are not prepared to read the facts (as others see them) and put forward facts (as you see them) of you own (not other people's) and debate them, or even look at them, what's the point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:07 AM

I have read all that stuff.
None of it is new, and it is irrelevant here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 05:51 AM

"None of it is new, and it is irrelevant here."
You didn't even admit its existence - the report on the intended poisoning of the Bedouins relates directly to your claim of good treatment of them by Israel - the The Inequality Report on The Palestinian Arab Minority in Israel, relates directly to you claim that all citizens of Israel have equal right - the report contains such gems as:
"Case Study: The October 2000 protest killings In October 2000, Israeli police officers killed 13 unarmed Palestinian citizens of Israel during demonstrations staged to protest against Israel's brutal policies in the OPT. During the demonstrations, Israeli police used live ammunition, rubber-coated steel bullets and tear gas against the protestors. Many protestors who were killed were shot in the head or chest by snipers. As a result of the lethal force employed by the police to quash the demonstrations, hundreds of Arab citizens were also injured and more than 1,000 were arrested and detained. Contrary to the recommendations of the official Or Commission of Inquiry in 2003, in January 2008, the Attorney General decided to close the files and not to issue a single indictment against anyone responsible for the killings.221 Until today, ten years after the killings, no police officer, commander or political leader has been held accountable for the deaths."
ALL OF THESE LINKS ARE DIRECTLY RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION AND YOUR CONTEMPT FOR BOTH FACTS AND THE FORUM MEMBERS WHO PRODUCE THEM PROVES YOU TO BE A RABID FANATIC WHO IS USING THE DEMOCRACY AFFOREDED TO YOU BY THIS FORUM AS A SOAPBOX FOR YOUR EXTREMIST VIEWS
Your dismissal of information put up for you out of hand shows you to have no interest in the views or the knowledge of other forum members.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 05:56 AM

As I said, nothing new.
All old stuff.
"October 2000"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:15 AM

"October 2000"
Which proves without question that you are lying - you have not read the link provided, not any of the others, or you would have responded to them
The report is dated March 2011 and is a survey of the built in inequalities of Israeli society, which has led to it being descrimed "the Apartheid State".
You and Bruce have been hiding behind the Holocaust, which ended 68 years ago - both of you have suggested that those who criticise Israel are Antisemitic, and if Israel didn't act as they do it would provoke a new holocaust.
The links are "not all old - far from it - they range back over the last decade and they relate directly to your claims.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:55 AM

Shall I remind you what happens to peaceful protesters in the surrounding countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:57 AM

""So we did end up discussing Bedouin persecution and you and your mates really did not want it mentioned that the ones in Israel are the lucky ones.""

Read the following from the Guardian May 2012.

-snip- ""Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.

Thabet Abu Rass, the Negev director for Adalah, an organisation that offers legal advice to the Arab minority in Israel, describes a painstaking fight for the rights of unrecognised villagers. "We have to petition the high court for each basic service, like water. Most of the time we win the cases – but the problem is implementation. Sometimes it takes 10 years. Or they grant us 'minimal access' to water, which means one tap three miles from the village."

According to a pending law for the regulation of Bedouin settlement in the Negev, due to be presented to the parliament this month, these villages will be evacuated in the next five years and ecah of their inhabitants compensated to move to one of seven government-planned townships – the poorest towns in Israel, with some of the highest crime rates.""-snip-

Now tell me that, because others are treated worse, you would consider yourself lucky to live as they describe and have a future in ""one of seven government-planned townships – the poorest towns in Israel, with some of the highest crime rates."".

Go on Keith, convince us.

Me and my mates want to know just how lucky you think they are in the light of that existence.

It's one thing to have laws, quite another to enforce without fear or favour, and it's abundantly clear that Israel is a long way from that standard.

If they treat their own like that, what chance for neighbouring Arab countries?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 07:06 AM

BTW, that came from one of Jim's ""irrelevant"" links and was dated just nine months ago.

Care to reassess their relevance?

Of course not. Being forced to recognise facts would kill you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 07:19 AM

We have been over it endlessly.
A crowded modern country has to restrict the freedom of nomadic people to set up where they want, but they are equal under the law, and have full citizenship rights unlike their unfortunate, excluded, marginalised and persecuted brethren next door in Egypt.

BBC Tuesday.
(Kuwait)Noting Bedouin unhappiness with a lack of services, ongoing corruption and what they see as growing state repression, Mr Davidson said: "The al-Sabahs are breaking the social contract with the tribes... tribal discontent has always been there but nothing close to this as ever happened before."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:51 AM

"Shall I remind you what happens to peaceful protesters in the surrounding countries?"
NO YOU Shall not, IT HAS NO RELEVANCE WHATEVER TO HOW ISRAEL BEHAVES TOWARDS WHAT YOU HAVE DESCRINBED AS "IT'SD ENEMIES" - I AM QUITE AWARE OF THE BEHAVIOUR OF RELIGION BASED OR INFLUENCED STATES
There is no country that has a worse record of massacres than Nazi Germany - does this make all massacres less than that in any way excusable?
Israel's behavior is the question here - not anywhere else.
Can I remind you that you have pointed out Egypt's military government's behaviour towards minorities while at the same time, are happy to support their flooding life-saving tunnels.
The history of Israel is one of massacres - especially of civilians. Israel started its independence by massacring villagers by hurling hand grenades into occupied homes. You've had the information on this.
The Sabra/Shatila massacre is particularly relevant in view of the possibility of Palestinian being made into refugees.
The vast majority of Palestinian casualties in the conflict(far more than that of Israelis - look up the figures if you don's believe this) have been unarmed and unresistant civilians (also well documented).   
There is not a time limit on any massacre - IF THERE IS PLEASE TELL ME WHEN IT CEASES TO BE A RELEVANT ISSUE - PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE TO AVOID THIS QUESTION
Israel would long ago have been tried for war crimes had it not been supported by US vetoes.
"but they are equal under the law,"
The law pays lip service to equality - the reality is gross inequality based on race - I didn't even start to gather the mass of information on the restrictions of sales of property to Arabs (and even Gentiles)
READ THE TOTALLY INDEPENDENT REPORT WHICH YOU HAVE LYINGLY CLAIMED TO HAVE READ AND SHOW US WHERE IT IS FALSE.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:55 AM

"A crowded modern country has to restrict the freedom of nomadic people to set up where they want,"
You are now supporting the forcible displacement of nomadic tribes from their traditional hiomes (in this case, to toxic ground) in order to build settlements for Israelis.
Further and further out of your racist closet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:58 AM

Why is it unreasonable to make a compare Israel with its neighbours?
If you do, it comes out the best by far.
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 09:01 AM

Jim, both our countries restrict the freedom of nomadic people to settle wherever they want, and so does every other country.
Why single out Israel?

The history of Israel is one of massacres - especially of civilians.
I refute that, but there have been plenty in the surrounding countries.
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 10:55 AM

""A crowded modern country has to restrict the freedom of nomadic people to set up where they want, but they are equal under the law, and have full citizenship rights unlike their unfortunate, excluded, marginalised and persecuted brethren next door in Egypt.""

You are a caution mate, a real good laugh! Either you once again decided not to read one of my posts, or you have a three hour memory span, or most likely,having no answer you shoot off at a tangent to talk about Egypt. CONCENTRATE NOW, I know you can get it if you try:-

""Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.

These are not nomads Keith, get it? NOT NOMADS!

What we have here is cultivatable land which Israel wants for Israelis (as soon as the Bedouins are shifted, Israelis move in), you see in spite of your impassioned support of your idols, equality to them means "equality for us and screw the Arabs", because they do not see Bedouins as being Israeli.

Now read the whole thing and see if you can get your head round the rest, which describes the depths to which Israel will sink to displace Arab farmers and put them into townships in the poorest regions in high crime areas. Do you still say the caring Israelis are trying to improve their condition?

Whatever is happening in other countries, APARTHEIDT is alive and well and 58% of Israelis think so too, but most of them don't care, according to one of those links you think irrelevant.

Don T.

Whatever

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:10 AM

"Why single out Israel?"

We know damn well why they single out Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:13 AM

""Jim, both our countries restrict the freedom of nomadic people to settle wherever they want, and so does every other country.
Why single out Israel?""

When is it going to seep through into whatever you call a brain, that those particular ""NOMADS"" have been farming that land for nearly ten times longer than Israel has EXISTED!

Bedouins raising cattle since the 1500s (C16)= 600 years
Birth of Israel 1948                   (C20)= 65 years

Since the birth of Israel thriving farmers have been fenced in off grazing land, such that one farm which used to graze 1500 sheep and 30 camels, can now only support 150 sheep and 1 camel, and most of what they fetch has to be spent on feed.

You really should have read Jim's links and you would have known these things instead of making a complete arse of yourself.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM

"""Why single out Israel?"

We know damn well why they single out Israel.""

YES Bobad. We do it because we're sick of seeing atrocities and crimes against humanity covered up for just one nation by a fawning West which feels bad about the idea of telling off the "Eternal Victims"!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 12:26 PM

"Why single out Israel?"
I doidn't single out Israel - you did, you told us how well the Bedouin people were treated in Israel - a reminder:
"Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
09 Feb 13 - 10:16 AM
"....likewise Bedouin."
You then went on to give your approval for them being moved onto a toxic site - you tried to deny it was toxic, even though youy were given an Israeli Government Department report on it's toxicity if it gets inbto the water supply, told of the likelihood of it exploding (also a Government department report), and the inadequate fencing that would allow children to enter grounds that would remain toxic for year, if not decades.
Your pointing out Britain's deplorable record on Travellers rings a little hollow after your opening a threads in an an (unsuccessful) attempt to disprove one of the most common acts of prejudice in these islands.
"Why Israel"
One more time:
There is no country that has a worse record of massacres than Nazi Germany - does this make all massacres less than that in any way excusable?
Israel's behavior is the question here - not anywhere else.
You do not judge the behaviour of one country - show me why this is not true.
"If you do, it comes out the best by far."
No they don't - show me one country that has taken part in the slaughter of 3,000 refugees.
You have been given the death toll of this present conflict: Israel's continuing slaughter of civilians in this conflict is unequalled by that of any other protagonist in the Middle East
And to repeat my request:
There is not a time limit on any massacre - IF THERE IS PLEASE TELL ME WHEN IT CEASES TO BE A RELEVANT ISSUE - PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE TO AVOID THIS QUESTION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 12:29 PM

Correction
You do not judge the behaviour of one country by comparing it with the acts of the other - show me why this is not true.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 03:41 PM

"Israel condemned by UN"

..Well of course they did!..The only five countries in the security council, U.S., U.K, France, Russia and China just happen to be the world's largest supplier of arms, both legal and illegal, to the rest of the world(U.N.)! Why shouldn't they vote to escalate another region in turmoil...........it would stimulate their economies and make profits for the illegal arms trade, as well....and the same people would profit!
Way to go guys!..Did real great in Syria, as well!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 03:44 PM

"We do it because we're sick of seeing atrocities and crimes against humanity"

There are atrocities and crimes against humanity of a much greater magnitude than what you accuse Israel of happening in many places of the world yet you single out Israel for your obsessive opprobrium - why?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM

"There are atrocities and crimes against humanity of a much greater magnitude than what you accuse Israel"
Perhaps you can explain why this makes Israel's serial crimes against humanity and war crimes acceptable - Keith can't?
This seems to now be the knee-jerk defence for those crimes and massacres.
Why - because Israel is a terrorist state armed with nuclear weapons, protected by a US veto and is risking war in the Middle East in order to expand its territory - hope you've got a fallout shelter in your back yard.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:34 PM

Jim Carroll: "...- because Israel is a terrorist state armed with nuclear weapons, protected by a US veto and is risking war in the Middle East in order to expand its territory - hope you've got a fallout shelter in your back yard."

Don't worry...the only way that would happen is by a 'non-co-operating, rogue client'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:04 PM

Jim, If you could make your posts more reasoned and rational, it would be easier to respond.

Don, the Bedouin were nomadic and issues arise when they build.
At least in Israel they have citizenship rights and the protection of the law.
As a community they flourish, their numbers increasing at an extraordinary rate.

Jim, there was no toxic waste at the dump.
It is not a toxic dump.
Ordinary garbage causes those problems but is easily managed.
These are local issues and very few Bedouin are even involved.


No they don't - show me one country that has taken part in the slaughter of 3,000 refugees.
Not Israel for a start.
If you mean Sabra Shatilla, the killing was done by local militia who were Arabs.
Syrian massacres have gone well beyond those numbers just in the last year.
The later massacres in the Lebanese refugee camps also compare.
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:13 PM

I see where you're coming from.

The Irish anti-Israel sickness isn't limited to Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 03:48 AM

Your excuses for not replying to simple questions are really not worth responding to - if you can't understand what people say to you, or dispute it with rational argument, stop dominating and filibusting threads - these are not complicated subjects - massacring unarmed non combatants is unacceptable whoever does it, and using the behaviour of others to excuse it is utterly dishonest and makes you part of those war crimes and human rights abuses, just as those who knew about the Holocaust and did nothing allowed themselves to become part of it.
If there's anything here you don't understand, please point it out and I'll try to explain it in the 'soundbite size' postings' that you seem to favour, otherwise, stop pretending you don't understand what is being said.
Claiming my arguments are un"reasonable" or ir"rational" without "reasonable" or "rational" arguments of your own really is scraping the bottom of the barrel - PATHETIC AND MEANINGLESS, to say the least.
STOP BEING AN APOLOGIST FOR WAR CRIMINALS.
You claim to have disputed evidence put forward of Israel's appalling human rights record - you certainly have not. You have consistently denied documented facts, which is a different thing altogether.
We have provided proof, of Sabra/Shatila - you denied it, chemical weapons - you denied it - massacres - you denied it - you denied it - illegal settlements- you denied it - systematic humiliation - you denied it - attempts to starve into submission- you denied it - - you denied it - slaughter of civilians, - you denied it - the destruction of homes, hospitals and schools, - you denied it - destroying the health of children and those in need of medicine...... and a whole host of human (or should I say inhuman) abuses - you denied them all, every single one. You have yet to provide evidence to show us wrong, YOU HAVE SIMPLY DENIED THEM - THAT IS NOT DISPUTING THEM, AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT DISPROVING THEM
Just as with the Holocaust deniers, you are attempting to re-write history by simply saying that these documented facts are not true, that they, did not happen.
Typical is your insistence that the proposed sites the Bedouins are being moved onto are not toxic - YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN A LIST OF REASONS WHY IT IS WHICH YOU HAVE TOTALLY IGNORED AND GONE INTO YOUR MANTRA "IT IS NOT TOXIC" MODE - SHOW WHY THE REASONS YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN ARE WRONG OR STOP LYING - THE OPPORTUNITY IS YOURS
You obviously have no intention of explaining why the behaviour of others is an excuse for war crimes; nor do you intend to tell us why and when past massacres become irrelevant - tell us why these true or
STOP HIDING BEHIND SUCH EVASIVE DISHONESTY - IT IS YOUR NON-ARGUMENTS THAT ARE UNREASONABLE, IRRATIONAL OR NON EXISTANT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 04:09 AM

OK Jim, the "toxic" site.
The terms "Toxic waste" and "toxic dumps" have specific meanings.
It distinguishes such things from ordinary domestic garbage, which is what goes in to this landfill site.

Domestic garbage can generate methane and can contaminate water if mismanaged.
Wealthy friends of mine live on a very expensive housing scheme in Broxbourne over such a site.
There are pipes coming out of the ground here and there to disperse the methane.

Sabra and Shatilla.
No-one is denying it happened and was a dreadful crime against humanity.
If you argued that Israel had some indirect responsibility because they controlled the area I would have to agree.
If you argued, with hindsight, that IDF might have foreseen what the militia might do, I would have to agree.
If you argue, again with hindsight, that IDF should have realised what was happening sooner I would have to agree.
You keep saying IDF did it.
That is not true. It was the IDF who stopped it.

IDF responsibility can be argued about because it is equivocal.
If Israel is as evil as you say, why can you not find some unequivocal crimes to blame on them?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:06 AM

"Chemical weapons" also has a specific meaning.
Smoke screen canisters are not chemical weapons.

If you said that their use around civilians was deplorable and reckless, I would agree.
I actually gave that as my opinion.

If you describe it as a chemical attack on civilians, that is just bollocks.
If you surround it in acres of multi-coloured, multi-fonted text, it is still bollocks.
It shows the weakness of your case that you have to use such nonsense.

Where are the unequivocal Israeli crimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:58 AM

"toxic" site."
My dictionary gives "toxic" as harmful, destructive or deadly poisonous, and that is the is the situation on this site.
The materials on the site become toxic if they get into the water supply, that is a fact recognised by the Israeli authorities and stated as such - you have been given that statement.
They become toxic when coming into contact with some gasses, include those with domestic uses - also a documented fact and given to you.
Those toxins remain in the ground years, possibly decades after the site has been used, especially dangerous to any water supply - also commented on by those involved in the health of the country.
The perimeter fence is insecure, making possible - likely that children and enter the site and come into contact with rotting material which could make them ill and even kill them - this is true of any rubbish dump of this size and is recognised to be the case.
In addition to this, the gasses given off could cause fire and explosion - stated by the Health authorities.
Tell us which of these is not true.
Whether the site is being used to dump specifically recognised toxic material it totally irrelevant; I have never claimed that to be the case.
The site is toxic by its very existence – it contains material that can killand it has been stated as being such - that's in several of your unread links.
Your arguments here are similar to your defence of chemical weapons - if materials capable of burning the faces off children are showered down on occupied area they become weapons, no matter what their other uses are.
A baseball bat in the hands of a thug becomes a deadly weapon, no matter what its intended use was.
Your "Broxbourn" equivalent is laughably immaterial unless you can show that this site is and will continue to be similarly managed in the same way as your "wealthy friends" friendly neighbourhood dump - can you?.
Once the site becomes vacant there is no suggestion anywhere that any steps will be taken to guard against the lingering toxicity.
Apart from anything else, the proposal to evict a people from their traditional centuries-old tribal lands to somewhere where they will be unable to follow either their customary way of life or make their livelihoods, in order to make room for Jewish settlers is an act of racist oppression and your support for it reflects perfectly your fascist (wishes of the state before well-being of the people) outlook on life.
You have continued to ignore the evidence put before you and you continue to provide none of your own.
Moving people about like chess pieces if an open act of state fascism.
"Sabra and Shatilla."
You have been given the evidence of Israel's role in this massacre - it was facilitated by them and could not have happened without their active participation - if this is not true provide your evidence to counteract what you have been given.   So far, your sole defence is "Israel said they didn't do it" even though Israeli soldiers who were there and who were traumatised by the events said they did.
At the very least the Israeli forces provided the transport to the camps, opened up the camps for the killers, provided the illumination so they could go about their work OVER THREE DAYS.
Well-armed Israeli soldiers stood by and watched as the slaughter went on – they witnessed the events over a long period of times and did nothing.
"It was the IDF who stopped it."
They "stopped it" when the killing had run its course.
They helped bury the dead after the three days of slaughter and allowed the killers to leave.
They later built a stadium over the mass graves so that they corpses could not be used as evidence (the reason why the actuat death toll is still unknown)
They were guilty before, during and after the fact - making them mass murderers and war criminals - show us one shred of evidence to show they were not.
Were us your evidence - you've had ours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 06:43 AM

""At least in Israel they have citizenship rights and the protection of the law.""

You really are not paying attention:-

""Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.""

Citizenship rights to everything, except basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads.

WOW! Aren't they lucky to be Israeli citizens. We know what rights they are excluded from, so what does that leave in the way of rights?

They have the right to be shifted out of their 600 year home and dumped alongside Jerusalem's steadily increasing rubbish heap. Not a problem says Keith.

They have the right to be dragged away from the area where they can support themselves by farming (which they have done for 600 years), and placed in townships which are among the poorest areas in Israel and have high crime levels, and which offer little if any hope of making a living as a farmer, which is the only trade they know.

All of this to supply brand new settlements where the REAL Israelis can take over the farming and make a good living at it.

You know, with equality like that, I'd hate to see what you, Keith, would describe as discrimination.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 07:02 AM

""I see where you're coming from.

The Irish anti-Israel sickness isn't limited to Ireland""

Bollocks! You persist in deliberately NOT SEEING where we are coming from.

None of as is anti Jew.

We are talking about the excesses of the second most arrogant and intransigent government in the modern world, the Zionist bastards led by Netanyahu.

We are talking about that government's ongoing efforts to annexe the whole of Palestine, and the dishonesty of those who claim that imperialism is synonymous with self defence.

We are talking aout the iniquity of the way that they treat Arabs both within and without Israel.

We are talking about the way in which their soldiers respond to stone throwers with deadly gunfire, and the massively disproportionate responses to resistance, with kill rates far in excess of ten to one at every opportunity.

None of which has anything whatever to do with antisemitism on our part, so you may, at your leisure, roll that Irish document into a cylinder and shove it you know where.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 07:19 AM

This "why single out Israel" trend in this thread adds up to an utterly bogus, desperate and stupendously childish argument. let's look at why:

1. It is a thread about Israel. Duh.

2. The implication is that, even if Israel is doing something nasty, but slightly less nasty than a, b, c or d, it is beyond criticism. I rape your wife, but the chap next door murders your daughter. That lets me off the hook because murder is slightly worse than rape. Do me a favour.

3. In various threads on this and other forums, I've "singled out" for criticism the US for its foreign policy, the Catholic church for its terrible attitude to HIV/Aids in Africa, Hamas for its rocket attacks on civilians, the so-called "pro-life" movement, bitter Republican politicians who do everything in their power to prevent a Democrat president from governing effectively, the global warming denial conspiracy, the US gun lobby, the evil Mother Teresa and a host of other things. If a thread is about Israel then Israel has been singled out for discussion. Bleating that we're "singling out" Israel just because we don't share your apologist view of Israel is laughable. It simply reveals that you have no arguments.

4. The bloody thread is about Israel! (Oops, did I already mention that?)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 09:30 AM

"I see where you're coming from."
Sorry Bobad, replied to this earlier but my posting went walkabout.
I read the Jacobson piece at the time, but was a little nonplussed to understand how opposing massacres, human rights abuses, war crimes... can be construed as 'Antisemitism" - unless he and you are, like Keith, claiming that none of these things happened - is that the case, d'you think.
Have certainly come across racism in Ireland, mainly from people who have lived in the UK and caught the infection there.
I can't recall any Antisemitism here (sorry - don't count bringing relief to a besieged people - that's humanitarianism as far as I'm concerned - maybe you could put me right on that one).
The Irish in general I find friendly, hospitable, generous and gregarious (little curious about you maybe, what you do and who you are), but I've never found that in any way offensive or threatening.
Not so long ago there was a ceremony to welcome "blow ins" who have come to live here permanently.
The one appalling exception is with Travellers - that seems to have almost reached ethnic cleansing proportions.   
There is a some healthy discussion of the implications of this at present - even some politicians seem to have become aware of the situation, but a long way to go yet.
I said elsewhere that I can't imagine anything more Antisemitic than hiding behind the six million dead of Auschwitz and such places, to defend proven war crimes and atrocities.
If the six million had been given the luxury of graves, I have no doubt that they would be spinning in them - shame on you and Jacobson.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 12:01 PM

Don.
Citizenship rights to everything, except basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads.
I would add sanitation.
All these thing ARE provided when they settle.
All these things are not available when they build without permission.

Richard.
This thread is about UN not condemning Israel for its action to prevent Syria's weapons reaching terrorists in Lebanon.
So not just about Israel.
As usual, all your friends rush in to use it as a platform for attacking Israel while ignoring all the far worse offenders that surround Israel.
Israel always is singled out.
It is undeniable.

Jim, IDF deivered the miltia to the camps to root out PLO fighters.
They have an indirect responsibility for not foreseeing the danger.
We can agree on that.
That much is unequivocal.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 12:10 PM

Richard, the thraed about the Gaza/Egypt tunnels had nothing to do with Israel.
Israel was still singled out for attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 02:41 PM

All these things are not available when they build without permission.

Israel not only builds without permission but it also steals the building land first. And the settlers get all the water, electricity, healthcare, education, paved roads and sanitation they could wish for.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 03:38 PM

"We can agree on that."
No we can't Keith - there were no PLO fighters found - simple slaughter in revenge for a killing and facilitated by Israel - where's your evidence, you've had mine - you are once again making it up.
Among your unread links there are eye witness reports of Israeli soldiers watching women being dragged away to be raped and then have their throats cut - perhaps the Israelis thought they were being taken off to be searched - waddya think?
Providing the transport - illuminating the massacre - opening the gates to the killers - helping hide the bodies - allowing the killers to escape - evidence of traumatised Israeli soldiers (late to provide the stunning animated film 'Waltzing With Bashir' ANY THOUGHTS?
"not foreseeing the danger."
They stood by and watched the slaughter for THREE DAYS - how much foresight is needed?
Lest we forget - sorry it's five months old!!
"US gave Israel Green Light for Sabra, Shatila Massacre
By Finian Cunningham
Global Research, September 19, 2012
Press TV
Region: Middle East & North Africa
Theme: Crimes against Humanity
In-depth Report: PALESTINE
0    0 0    63
For three days, between 15 and 18 September, up to 3,500 men, women and children were butchered in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps of West Beirut. Their mutilated, mangled bodies bulldozed into mass graves.
For three days, Lebanese Christian Phalangists under the command of intelligence chief Elie Hobeika returned over and over again to go on an orgy of systematic slaughter in the camps. The massacre would not have been possible only for the collaboration of Israel's Defence Forces, which had months earlier invaded Lebanon and taken control of the camps.
Sabra and Shatila were populated by destitute families of Palestinians that had fled from the pogroms in 1948 carried out by Israel's Haganah death squads. The refugee numbers also burgeoned with Lebanese Shia displaced from the civil war in their country that erupted in 1975.
The United Nations' General Assembly later condemned what happened at Sabra and Shatila as "an act of genocide". A UN commission of inquiry, headed up by Irish statesman Sean MacBride, concluded that the Israeli authorities and their forces were involved and responsible for the deaths. The then head of the IDF was Ariel Sharon who later would hold four ministerial posts before becoming Israeli Prime Minister from 2001 to 2006.
Yet not a single person has ever been prosecuted for the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila. As part of Lebanon's civil war settlement in 1990 an amnesty was afforded to all those who had participated in this and other atrocities. Some would later clear their consciences by confessing publicly to media and tribunals to the most barbaric acts of cruelty one can imagine.
Former Phalangist commander Hobeika was due to give evidence in a Belgian court, which had claimed international jurisdiction for crimes against humanity to prosecute the case. Ahead of the hearings, Hobeika had publicly stated that he was going to testify against Aerial Sharon to implicate him in the operation of the massacre. He never made it to the courtroom. He was assassinated in a car bomb in Beirut in January 2002. At least two other former Lebanese Phalangists who were similarly due to testify were also mysteriously killed. Eventually, the Belgian court was forced to drop the trial under pressure from Washington. Many believe that Israeli agents carried out the assassinations to spare Sharon international ignominy.
Despite the lack of criminal convictions, there is not a shadow of doubt that Israel has blood on its hands over Sabra and Shatila. The Lebanese militia recruited to do the dirty work were assembled by the Israeli Defence Forces at Beirut International Airport days before the mayhem was unleashed. The 1,5000 or so killers were armed by the Israelis and driven in IDF vehicles to the camps. The Israeli army had surrounded the site with armed guards and checkpoints to ensure that no-one escaped when the slaughter began. Indeed, some reports at the time claimed that Israeli soldiers ordered families trying to flee from the carnage back into camps to face their certain deaths.
Overlooking Sabra and Shatila was the seven-storey Kuwaiti embassy, which had been commandeered by the Israelis. From top floors, the Israeli and Phalangist commanders would have had a clear, uninterrupted view of the unfolding sickening spectacle. Not least because the Israeli forces would fire night flares over the camps as the death squads – fuelled with cocaine and alcohol courtesy of Israel – proceeded from hovel to hovel killing the inhabitants.
One Dutch nurse working in the camps for an international aid organization said that the area was as bright as day because of the constant barrage of flares.
From their vantage point, the Israeli commanders would have witnessed the most grotesque bloodletting carried out by their Phalangist fanatics against women and children. Yet the Israeli commanders did nothing to stop the slaughter. Why should they have? It was all evidently executed according to plan. Later, the Israelis claimed that they had instructed the militias to not injure civilians and to behave with discipline. That self-defence is beneath contempt.
The respected American human rights lawyer Franklin Lamb, based in Beirut, recalled what his late wife witnessed in the hours following the aftermath of Sabra and Shatila. Janet Lee Stevens was in Beirut working as a young journalist and was one of the first internationals on the scene. Here is just an excerpt of what she witnessed:
"I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles."
This week, only days before the 30th anniversary of Sabra and Shatila, Israel's current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was afforded the customary privilege of articulating his noxious views to the American people on various nationwide Sunday television channels. To be sure, Sabra and Shatila were not mentioned. No, instead Netanyahu was spilling his bile about Iran's alleged nuclear ambitions. He also called the worldwide Muslim demonstrations outside American embassies over the latest anti-Islam video "mob rule" and he compared the Iranian government to these "fanatics". In a leap of twisted logic, Netanyahu said: "You can't let such people have atomic bombs."
Such is the twisted world we live in. When will the voices of Sabra and Shatila be given such prominence on Western mainstream media to explain to the world the horror and injustice that they suffered? Maybe if such voices were somehow heard and understood, the American people would stop their governments bankrolling the fanatical, criminal state of Israel that has, and continues to, instigate so much conflict in the world. Washington gives Israel a license for genocide. The American people need to stop that."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-gave-israel-green-light-for-sabra-shatila-genocide/5305298

The fact that you continue to lie and to fail to produce one single scrap of evidence really places you where you are.
"All these thing ARE provided when they settle."
I assume you can provide links to this information - or not, as the case may be?
You haven't responded to the toxicity of the site - given up on that one?
Or the fascist behaviour of moving masses of people to make room for Jewish settlers.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 10:15 PM

Don't you just love hate?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 01:47 AM

Jim, when you read reports by "eye witnesses" remember that the enemies of Israel regard lies as a legitimate weapon.
Remember the ones that "saw" IDF soldiers throwing bodies off the Maramara, and executing a young man on deck.
All made up.
Remember the massacre you indignantly posted about that was pure fiction.
The faked pictures in Gaza, etc., etc.

Apart from the journalists, all your "eye witnesses" only remembered what they "saw" years later.
The only outcry at the time came from Israel.
The Arab world was silent.
I am not so gullible as to believe without question the stories from either side, but you have endlessly posted the anti-israel version so here is Israel's version of events.


On Thursday, 16 September, the I.D.F. surrounded the Palestinian refugee camps in west Beirut to flush out terrorists, confiscate weapons and strengthen the Maronite regime in the wake of Bashir Gemayel's assassination. In the following ten days, vast amounts of arms were removed, including 12 pieces of artillery, 8 heavy mortars, and 520 tons of ammunition. A decision concerning the use of Phalangist elements in the camps was reached a day earlier. They entered the camps in the late evening of 16 September and the massacres began. They lasted all day Friday and ended by late night Saturday. Reports began to filter out on Friday morning, when the Chief of Staff and the Foreign Minister were alerted. The Prime Minister first heard of the massacre from a foreign news broadcast. He and the rest of Israel were celebrating the Jewish New Year on Saturday and Sunday, 18 and 19 September. On the 19th, reporters entered the camps and confirmed that hundreds of Palestinians had been massacred. In Israel there was consternation and the Cabinet met in an extraordinary session and issued the following communique:

On the New Year, a blood libel was levelled at the Jewish State and its Government, against the Israel Defense Forces.

In a place where there was no position of the Israeli army, a Lebanese unit entered a refugee center where terrorists were hiding, in order to apprehend them. This unit caused many casualties to innocent civilians. We state this fact with deep grief and regret. The I.D.F., as soon as it learned of the tragic events in the Shatila camp, put an end to the slaughter of the innocent civilian population and forced the Lebanese unit to evacuate the camp. The civilian population itself gave clear expression to its gratitude for the act of salvation by the I.D.F. All the direct or implicit accusations that the I.D.F. bear any blame whatsoever for this human tragedy in the Shatila Camp are entirely baseless and without any foundation. The Government of Israel rejects them with the contempt which they deserve.

The fact remains that without the intervention of the I.D.F., there would have been much greater loss of life. It is also necessary to note that for two days and nights the Israel Defense Forces carried out actions against terrorists in West Beirut and no complaints whatsoever were voiced concerning civilian casualties.

It has become evident that the terrorists grossly violated the evaluation agreement, not only by leaving two thousand of them in West Beirut, but also by hiding away immense quantities of weapons, including heavy arms, such as tanks, artillery, mortars, and huge amounts of ammunition. All this was done in order to continue with the bloody terror against Israel and other nations from west Beirut.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 03:53 AM

This now becomes grotesque, though you have confirmed that you regard the targets of this massacre as "the enemy", which you denied before.
The eye-witnesses were survivors of the massacre - so presumably it would have been handier for your case if they had not survived.
No resistance to the massacre has ever been reported, no casualties other than the refugees.
Israelis stood by and witnessed the slaughter for three days without inetervention, other than to provide illumination so that the killers, that they had transported to the killing ground and give access to their victims, could continue their work through the night.
After the slaughter they helped hide the evidence by burying the bodies - the mass graves were later made inaccessible by building a stadium over them.
The killers were then allowed to escape.
"Apart from the journalists, all your "eye witnesses" only remembered what they "saw" years later"
Now you are openly lying again - it has been pointed out to you, in the past and as recently as yesterday, that witnesses included Israeli soldiers who also submitted testimonies describing the events - some of them deeply traumatised by what had happened - one of these accounts provided the basis for the film 'Waltzing With Bashir'.   
Your one single defence of this remains the account of the Israelis - the fully participant perpetrators.
Not one single scrap of evidence backs up their case, just "we didn't do it.
Your suggestion that the Israelis "stopped the massacre" is an obscene insult to those who died - and to our intelligence.
You appear to have gone totally around the twist on this one - a massacre supporter too far.
You have yet to respond to my description of the toxic nature of the proposed Bedouin site.
Similarly, you have not offered an opinion on the racist/Fascist nature of evicting Bedouins from their traditional homeland in order to make way for Jewish settlers.
You have not even acknowledges the 'Inequality Report' that paints a picture of Israel's Apartheid state.
You have not responded to one single question asked of you other than describe those of us who find these events horrifically inhuman as "enemies of Israel" and to suggest that we are 'Antisemite' by feeling such revulsion.
AND YOU HAVE YET TO PROVIDE A LINK TO ONE SINGLE SHRED OF DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR DISGUSTING CLAIMS - YOU APPEAR TO NOW BE TOTALLY MAKING IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG
You appear to have shot your bolt on this one.
CONGRATULATIONS - YOU HAVE NOW BECOME A FULLY-FLEDGED SUPPORTER OF MASS MURDER AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY - I NEVER DOUBTED FOR A MOMENT THAT YOU'D GET THERE EVENTUALLY.
YOUR POSITION ON THIS CHILLINGLY REMINDS ME OF ACCOUNTS I HAVE READ OF THE DEFENCE OF THE HOLOCAUST, BOTH AT THE TRIALS OF ITS PERPETRATORS AND BY ITS SUPPORTERS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 04:31 AM

Jim, I have not put up evidence about Lebanon 1982 this time.
On previous threads we had proper debates with much exchange of evidence.
I am just not going to do it again.
There is no new evidence and your mind is completely closed.
The only contemporary accounts were from Western journalists and they were consistent with Israel's version.
There were exchanges of fire.

You have yet to respond to my description of the toxic nature of the proposed Bedouin site.
Yes I have.
I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.
Yes garbage can become toxic.
The courts are there to make sure those responsible do not allow it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:04 AM

You are now lying again
YOU HAVE NEVER PROVIDED A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR THE ISRAELI CASE
NOR HAVE YOU REPLIED TO MY DESCRIPTION OF TOXICITY
THERE ARE NO DOCUMENTED ACCOUNTS OF ARMED RESISTANCE TO THE MASSACRE
THE IS NO RECORD OF A PLO PRESENCE
Don't know how many of these you want, there are dozens more - don't suppose you'll read them but I hope others will
Jim Carroll

"ISRAELIS MISLED AMERICAN DIPLOMATS ABOUT EVENTS IN BEIRUT AND BULLIED THEM INTO ACCEPTING THE SPURIOUS CLAIM THAT THOUSANDS OF "TERRORISTS" WERE IN THE CAMPS. Most troubling, when the United States was in a position to exert strong diplomatic pressure on Israel that could have ended the atrocities, it failed to do so. As a result, Phalange militiamen were able to murder Palestinian civilians, whom America had pledged to protect just weeks earlier."
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/nyt-responds-to-netanyahu-israelis-misled-and-bullied-us-before-sabra-and-shatila-too.html

http://www.mideastweb.org/kahan_report.htm
0http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20120924053353687
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/09/22/30-years-after-the-massacre-at-sabra-shatila-new-challenges-grip-lebanons-palestinian-camps/
http://www.niu.edu/phil/~kapitan/pdf/SabraandShatillaMassacre.pdf
http://palestinechronicle.com/old/view_article_details.php?id=19574
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/21/262829/sabra-shatila-and-challenges-ahead/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/4381-survivor-niadal-hamad-qit-is-not-permissible-to-forgetsabra-and-shatilaq

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:57 AM

""Citizenship rights to everything, except basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads.
I would add sanitation.
All these thing ARE provided when they settle.
All these things are not available when they build without permission.""

You are still not paying attention, are you?

THEY SETTLED 600 YEARS AGO, and have farmed that land ever since.

Israel is treating them exactly as 19th Century Americans treated the Indians who, like these Bedouins, were considered sub human, a hindrance to White settlement and expendable.

It now proposes to herd them into hovels in high crime areas and establish plush settlements with all mod cons for the chosen ones.

Of course, they do have another alternative which I'm sure Israel would prefer. They can leave and become refugees, turning Apartheid Israel into racially pure Israel.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:15 AM

""Jim, IDF deivered the miltia to the camps to root out PLO fighters.
They have an indirect responsibility for not foreseeing the danger.
We can agree on that.
That much is unequivocal.""

They delivered them and nominally were in charge of, and responsible for, their actions.

This would not have mattered had they stopped the massacre, or even tried their best to do so.

They didn't take any preventive action for three days, and subequently allowed the murderers to walk away.

That is "Accessory, before, during, and after the fact!"

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""All the direct or implicit accusations that the I.D.F. bear any blame whatsoever for this human tragedy in the Shatila Camp are entirely baseless and without any foundation. The Government of Israel rejects them with the contempt which they deserve.""

Well they would say that wouldn't they? That's the simple response.

Expanding a little,....They would also present hard evidence for that statement, assuming such existed, but they didn't. Far from it! Accounts from their own soldiers, horrified by the excesses of the Phalangists directly contradict Israel's statement.

It may well be that Israel (the government) ordered the IDF to put the phalangists in, so that they could be in precisely this position of at least semi plausible deniability. The soldiers' accounts blew deniability out of the water.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:25 AM

""Jim, when you read reports by "eye witnesses" remember that the enemies of Israel regard lies as a legitimate weapon.""

While, of course, every utterance by the Israeli government is the plain unvarnished truth, and they are in fact an altruistic organisation devoted to the well being of Arabs and Muslims.

It's just that they truly believe in sending them to a martyr's welcome from Allah! They just want to make them happy.

Grow up Keith!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:35 AM

""I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.""

You are being disingenuous Keith.

You must be aware that landfill sites are only used for housing years after they are covered in, allowed to settle, and regularly checked for toxic gas emissions.

The site under discussion is open, in regular use for diposal of Jerusalem's rubbish, and spread all over the hillside right down to the current Bedouin settlement.

You cannot possibly believe that is acceptable, and you must know that the UN wouldn't think so either.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM

""Yes garbage can become toxic.
The courts are there to make sure those responsible do not allow it.""

Another hollow laugh! We've already pointed out what Bedouins get from Israeli courts.

NADA!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:05 AM

Why Islam Will Never Accept the State of Israel
By Steven Simpson
It is a common belief that the "Arab-Israeli conflict" is a conflict of two peoples fighting over the same piece of land and is therefore one of nationalism. Rarely, if ever, do we hear or read of the religious component to this conflict.

However, if anything, the conflict is more of a "Muslim-Jewish" one than an "Arab-Israeli" one. In other words, the conflict is based on religion -- Islam vs. Judaism -- cloaked in Arab nationalism vs. Zionism. The fact of the matter is that in every Arab-Israeli war, from 1948 to the present, cries of "jihad," "Allahu Akbar," and the bloodcurdling scream of "Idbah al- Yahud" (slaughter the Jews) have resonated amongst even the most secular of Arab leaders, be it Nasser in the 1950s and 1960s or the supposedly "secular" PLO of the 1960s to the present. Indeed, the question must be asked: If this is really a conflict of different nationalisms and not Islamic supremacism, then why is it that virtually no non-Arab Muslim states have full (if any) relations with Israel?

There is a common Arabic slogan that is chanted in the Middle East: "Khaybar, Khaybar! Oh Jews, remember. The armies of Muhammad are returning!" It would be most interesting to know how many people have ever heard what -- or more precisely, where -- Khaybar is, and what the Arabs mean by such a slogan. A short history of the Jews of Arabia is needed in order to explain this, and why Islam remains so inflexible in its hostile attitude towards Jews and Israel.

Until the founder of Islam, Muhammad ibn Abdallah, proclaimed himself "Messenger of Allah" in the 7th century, Jews and Arabs lived together peacefully in the Arabian Peninsula. Indeed, the Jews -- and Judaism -- were respected to such an extent that an Arab king converted to Judaism in the 5th century. His name was Dhu Nuwas, and he ruled over the Himyar (present day Yemen) area of the Arabian Peninsula. In fact, it is most likely that the city of Medina (the second-holiest city in Islam) -- then called Yathrib -- was originally founded by Jews. In any event, at the time of Muhammad's "calling," three important Jewish tribes existed in Arabia: Banu Qurayza, Banu Nadir, and Banu Qaynuqa.

Muhammad was very keen on having the Jews accept him as a prophet to the extent that he charged his followers not to eat pig and to pray in the direction of Jerusalem. However, the Jews apparently were not very keen on Muhammad, his proclamation of himself as a prophet, or his poor knowledge of the Torah (Hebrew Bible). Numerous verbal altercations are recorded in the Qur'an and various Hadiths about these conflicts between the Jewish tribes and Muhammad.

Eventually, the verbal conflicts turned into physical conflicts, and when the Jews outwardly rejected Muhammad as the "final seal of the prophets," he turned on them with a vengeance. The atrocities that were committed against these tribes are too numerous to cite in a single article, but two tribes, the Qaynuqa and Nadir, were expelled from their villages by Muhammad. It appears that the Qaynuqa left Arabia around 624 A.D. The refugees of the Nadir settled in the village of Khaybar.

In 628 A.D., Muhammad turned on the last Jewish tribe, the Qurayza, claiming that they were in league with Muhammad's Arab pagan enemies and had "betrayed" him. Muhammad and his army besieged the Qurayza, and after a siege of over three weeks, the Qurayza surrendered. While many Arabs pleaded with Muhammad to let the Qurayza leave unmolested, Muhammad had other plans. Unlike expelling the Qaynuqa and Nadir, Muhammad exterminated the Qurayza, with an estimated 600 to 900 Jewish men being beheaded in one day. The women and children were sold into slavery, and Muhammad took one of the widows, Rayhana, as a "concubine."

In 629 A.D., Muhammad led a campaign against the surviving Jews of Nadir, now living in Khaybar. The battle was again bloody and barbaric, and the survivors of the massacre were either expelled or allowed to remain as "second-class citizens." Eventually, upon the ascension of Omar as caliph, most Jews were expelled from Arabia around the year 640 A.D.

This brings us, then, to the question of why modern-day Muslims still boast of the slaughter of the Jewish tribes and the Battle of Khaybar. The answer lies in what the Qur'an -- and later on, the various Hadiths -- says about the Jews. The Qur'an is replete with verses that can be described only as virulently anti-Semitic. The amount of Surahs is too numerous to cite, but a few will suffice: Surah 2:75 (Jews distorted the Torah); 2:91 (Jews are prophet-killers), 4:47 (Jews have distorted the Bible and have incurred condemnation from Allah for breaking the Sabbath), 5:60 (Jews are cursed, and turned into monkeys and pigs), and 5:82 (Jews and pagans are the strongest in enmity to the Muslims and Allah). And of course, there is the genocidal Hadith from Sahih Bukhari, 4:52:177, which would make Adolph Hitler proud. "The Day of Judgment will not have come until you fight with the Jews, and the stones and the trees behind which a Jew will be hiding will say: 'O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!"' Thus, the Arab Muslims had their own "final solution" in store for the Jews already in the 7th century.

The fact that Muslims still point to these (and many other) hateful verses in the Qur'an and Hadith should give Jews -- not just Israelis -- pause to consider if there can ever be true peace between Muslims and Jews, let alone between Muslims and Israel. When the armies of Islam occupied the area of Byzantine "Palestine" in the 7th century, the land became part of "Dar al-Islam" (House of Islam). Until that area is returned to Islam, (i.e., Israel's extermination), she remains part of "Dar al harb" (House of War). It now becomes clear that this is a conflict of religious ideology and not a conflict over a piece of "real estate."

Finally, one must ask the question: Aside from non-Arab Turkey, whose relations with Israel are presently teetering on the verge of collapse, why is it that no other non-Arab Muslim country in the Middle East has ever had full relations (if any at all) with Israel, such as faraway countries like Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan? Indeed, why would Persian Iran -- conquered by the Arabs -- have such a deep hatred for Jews and Israel, whereas a non-Muslim country such as India does not feel such enmity? The answer is painfully clear: The contempt in which the Qur'an and other Islamic writings hold Jews does not exist in the scriptures of the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and other Eastern religions. Therefore, people that come from non-Muslim states do not have this inherent hatred towards Jews, and by extension, towards Israel. But when a people -- or peoples -- is raised with a scripture that regards another people and religion as immoral and less than human, then it is axiomatic why such hatred and disdain exists on the part of Muslims for Jews and Israel.

Islam -- as currently interpreted and practiced -- cannot accept a Jewish state of any size in its midst. Unless Muslims come to terms with their holy writings vis-à-vis Jews, Judaism, and Israel and go through some sort of "reformation," it will be unlikely that true peace will ever come to the Middle East. In the meantime, unless Islam reforms, Israel should accept the fact that the Muslims will never accept Israel as a permanent fact in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM

i think this was my first post on the 82 massacre back in 2010.
"The massacres were truly deplorable. Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them. They were disgraced by it."

That has been my position ever since.

The events are disputed.
You lot just accept what one side says without question.
I have no way of knowing which side is lying most, and which is most truthful because i am not a prejudiced bigot.
The evidence is equivocal.
If Israel is so evil, where are the unequivocal crimes?

THERE ARE NO DOCUMENTED ACCOUNTS OF ARMED RESISTANCE TO THE MASSACRE
THE IS NO RECORD OF A PLO PRESENCE

There are but they obviously are Israeli accounts and documents which you dismiss.

NOR HAVE YOU REPLIED TO MY DESCRIPTION OF TOXICITY
Yes I have.
I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.
Yes garbage can become toxic.


You must be aware that landfill sites are only used for housing years after they are covered in, allowed to settle, and regularly checked for toxic gas emissions.
Yes. Meanwhile people can live nearby.
The site under discussion is open, in regular use for diposal of Jerusalem's rubbish, and spread all over the hillside right down to the current Bedouin settlement.
Yes. It is in its last few weeks of operation.

The courts are there to make sure those responsible do not allow it.""

Another hollow laugh! We've already pointed out what Bedouins get from Israeli courts.
The judiciary and courts are independent.
All citizens have the same rights.
The Bedouin have already used the courts to change the settlement proposals.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:18 PM

""However, if anything, the conflict is more of a "Muslim-Jewish" one than an "Arab-Israeli" one.""

If you change that premise to Muslim-Zionist, it might be more descriptive of what is, rather than what you would have us believe.

""why would Persian Iran -- conquered by the Arabs -- have such a deep hatred for Jews and Israel, whereas a non-Muslim country such as India does not feel such enmity? The answer is painfully clear: The contempt in which the Qur'an and other Islamic writings hold Jews does not exist in the scriptures of the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and other Eastern religions.""

The answer to that is very simple. Israel's Zionist government is not a direct threat to the existence of India, since it is not conducting the same planned campaign to gradually annexe India, that it is conducting in Palestine and the Middle East.

Zion's ingrained certainty of entitlement to the so-called promised land, occupied for so many centuries by Palestinians, and their high handed and disdainful treatment of the inhabitants, not only of that, but of all the other countries in the region, was always going to cause hatred.

Israel is the biggest single mistake that the West ever made. A Palestine with Jewish people living in mutual respect as they did 2000 years before might well have eventually settled into peace. Once the Zionists were given a part of Palestine, they were bound to want more, in fact they want it aall, and they don't much care who they kill to get it.

That whole garbled article is a straightforward apologia for Israeli expansionism, and it is a misrepresentation of what the Muslims of the region object to.

I'd like to know more about the credentials (if any) of the author.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM

""You lot just accept what one side says without question""

No, we accept the evidence produced by one side as more credible than the flat denial without evidence produced by the other.

Even you ought to ask why, if they have any, they don't produce it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:34 PM

""Yes. Meanwhile people can live nearby.""

I suspect your take on this would change radically, if that tip were open and up against your own property boundary.

But HEY! What the hell, they're only a bunch of Arabs, EH?

""Yes. It is in its last few weeks of operation.""

Followed by years of decomposition, surface settlement and gas emission.

And has it struck your sharp, incisive mind that a dump on a hillside is going to take a hell of a lot of covering.

That's why all of ours are in deep holes in the ground.

Again, you're not about to stress over the health of a bunch of Arabs, as long as the (Israelis who replace them have their luxuries.

""All citizens have the same rights.
The Bedouin have already used the courts to change the settlement proposals.""

Yes, they have. Ten year court battles to get a water supply, or minimal success, one tap three miles from where it's needed.

You Keith are a master of the half truth and the outright lie.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:46 PM

" I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.
Yes garbage can become toxic."
Not a reply to:
My dictionary gives "toxic" as harmful, destructive or deadly poisonous, and that is the is the situation on this site.
The materials on the site become toxic if they get into the water supply, that is a fact recognised by the Israeli authorities and stated as such - you have been given that statement.
They become toxic when coming into contact with some gasses, include those with domestic uses - also a documented fact and given to you.
Those toxins remain in the ground years, possibly decades after the site has been used, especially dangerous to any water supply - also commented on by those involved in the health of the country.
The perimeter fence is insecure, making possible - likely that children and enter the site and come into contact with rotting material which could make them ill and even kill them - this is true of any rubbish dump of this size and is recognised to be the case.
In addition to this, the gasses given off could cause fire and explosion - stated by the Health authorities.
Tell us which of these is not true.
Whether the site is being used to dump specifically recognised toxic material it totally irrelevant; I have never claimed that to be the case.
The site is toxic by its very existence – it contains material that can kill and it has been stated as being such - that's in several of your unread links.
"There were exchanges of fire."
Links please (not from the Israelis - they have been accused, even by the US journals, of lying.
"I am just not going to do it again."
Of course yoe are not - you are lying and the only "evidence" you have put forward are denials of guilt by of mass murderers -as is the case here.   
"Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them."
The Israelis took part in those massacres, you have had the evidence for this fact AND YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ONE SINGLE SCRAP OF YOUR OWN TO SHOW OTHERWISE - PUT A LINK UP IF YOU HAVE
"The events are disputed."
THE EVENTS ARE DISPUTED BY ISRAEL ALONE - PUT A LINK UP IF THIS IS NOT THE CASE
Throughout this thread and those similar, your sole defence has been only that which Israel has claimed.
THERE WERE NO TERRORIST PRESENT AT THIS MASSACRE, THERE WAS NO ARMED RESISTANCE, THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE ACCOUNT OF THERE BEING TERRORISTS PRESENT AND THERE WERE NO INJURIES AND DEATHS OTHER THAN THOSE OF UNARMED, UNRESISTANT REFUGEES - IT WAS A MASSACRE OF UNARMED NON-COMBATANTS, FACILITATED AND PARTICIPATED IN BY ISRAELI TROOPS IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE (NOT CLAIMS BY THE GUILTY, PLEASE PROVIDE IT - IF YOU DO NOT HAVE SUCH EVIDENCE THEN YOU HAVE NO CASE

Bobad
"Why Islam Will Never Accept the State of Israel"
Rhetoric is one thing - I suggest that you view the reality.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html
Would you like to live next door to a heavily armed mass-murderer determined to drive you and your family out of your home and prepared to resort to the slaughter of you all in order to do so?
You declined to answer my last point to you - I will be interested to see if you answer this one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:52 PM

BTW
You have just confirmed that the only 'evidence' to your claims are the denials of the accused
"There are but they obviously are Israeli accounts and documents which you dismiss.'
This is not "evidence" but a denial by the long-found-guilty culprit.
Perhaps you might like to point out a court of law which would accept such uncorroborated evidence as "proof" - I can't think of one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 05:50 PM

I suspect your take on this would change radically, if that tip were open and up against your own property boundary.
There are landfill sites near me, and people live close by them.
Jim, we ARE talking about an ordinary landfill site.
Those responsible for such sites are accountable under the law to make them safe.
As Don says, after a time it is even safe to live on top of one, as my wealthy friends do in Broxbourne.

THE EVENTS ARE DISPUTED BY ISRAEL ALONE - PUT A LINK UP IF THIS IS NOT THE CASE
Who else was there?
The case was immediately taken up in Israel.
IDF was required to explain what happened.
No-one else showed any interest.
I am suspicious of all those "witnesses" including Israeli soldiers who kept quiet at the time and then remembered things long after.

It may be true, but the Israeli case is every bit as credible.
I have an open mind, but the evidence is equivocal.
If Israel is as evil as you claim, why are there no unequivocal crimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:48 PM

The idea that landfills in general are safe because of some bureaucracy is risible at
best. They are not safe, they are toxic and anyone who believes otherwise is naive.

Again, Zionism is the culprit, not Judaism. Zionism is predicated on biblical injunctions and therefore can't be accepted as an expansionist country by Muslims.

Zionism when it was first conceived by Ben Gurion took into account the differences
between the Palestinian population and Israel. He was loathe to evict the Palestinians
from their homeland. Times have changed radically and Zionism became expansionist.

Israel has no intention of making life better for Palestinians and the world knows it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: pdq
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:58 PM

"In a 1946 appearance before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, also acting as an investigative body, the Arab-American historian Philip Hitti stated:

"There is no such thing as Palestine in [Arab] history, absolutely not." According to investigative journalist Joan Peters, who spent seven years researching the origins of the Arab-Jewish conflict over Palestine (From Time Immemorial, 2001), the one identity that was never considered by local inhabitants prior to the 1967 war was "Arab Palestinian.""

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 02:00 AM

Stringsinger,
A landfill site (also known as tip, dump, rubbish dump or dumping ground and historically as a midden) is a site for the disposal of waste materials by burial and is the oldest form of waste treatment. Historically, landfills have been the most common methods of organized waste disposal and remain so in many places around the world.

Yet we survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 02:35 AM

Jordan.
This increasing in the amounts of MSW is not yet accompanied with the proper management practice in Landfilling resources. It poses negative effects on the human health and environment.
Throughout the country there are 24 landfills handling Municipal solid waste; one of the landfills is designed for sanitary landfilling but the others don't have even the simplest needed requirements at present.

Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 03:50 AM

Relax Jim.
All your worries about landfill sites were based on more anti_Israel propaganda.
Try not to be so gullible

Haaretz, 2012

"Israel today buries about 80 percent of its waste in proper landfills, while the rest is transferred to recycling facilities. ‏(There are some European countries that recycle 90 percent of all trash, but in most cases the rate of recycling there ranges from 50 to 60 percent.‏) The dumps are huge pits lined with woven plastic sheeting, and contain pipelines for syphoning off gases and leachate − or "garbage juice," as it is popularly called. Every day the trash unloaded at local dumps is covered; the landfill is closed down after the waste reaches a certain height. The authority in charge of each site is obligated thereafter to rehabilitate the landscape and to continue draining off leachate and gas."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:12 AM

"Who else was there?"
Isn't that exactly the point - the only evidence you have produced is that of Israel, who tried itself and found itself "not guilty" and that is all you have put forward as "evidence".
"No-one else showed any interest."
A BLATENT LIE.
THERE IS A MASS OF EVIDENCE FROM INVESTIGATIONS OF THE MASSACRE, YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN THEM AND HAVE REFUSED TO RESPOND, YOU HAVE EVEN LIED ABOUT HAVING READ THEM - WANT ME TO SHOW YOU THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT?
The massacre was investigated by groups like 'Amnesty' the UN, and and other human rights organisations from all over the world, all of which you have ignored or rejected WITHOUT PROOF in favour of Israel's denial - HOW LOGICAL IS THAT?
I haven't even bothered to produce eye-witness evidence because you have made it clear that you would have rejected Muslim eye witnesses as having been "biased" - yet you admit that the only "evidence" you have is that of the facilitators of the massacre.
YOU HAVE EVEN REJECTED THE EVIDENCE OF ISRAELI SOLDIERS WHO WERE THERE AND WERE TRAUMATISED BY THE EVENTS - WHICH, AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, IS BENEATH CONTEMPT DO YOU BELIEVE THEM TO BE ANTISEMITES TOO? WERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE FOR YOUR DISGUSTING CLAIMS
"Those responsible for such sites are accountable under the law to make them safe."
Utter ******* nonsense, any state whose law allows the government to forcibly uproot 2,300 Bedouin families to next to a rubbish dump (toxic or not) where they will not be able to make a living or follow their traditional life-styles in order to make way for Jewish settlers is hardly likely to adhere to any law, especially when the victims of this atrocity are Muslims
In the late 1990s, they moved families from 20 communities to the same area placing homes as close as 150 metres to the garbage dump. (this information from the "anti-Semite" Amnesty organisation).
ANY STATE WHO BEHAVES LIKE THIS CAN SAFELY BE DESCRIBED AS FASCIST – PUTTING THE WISHES OF THE GOVERNMENT ABOVE THE WELL-BEING OF THE PEOPLE IS CLASSIC FASCISM – AND TO SUPPORT SUCH BEHAVIOUR IS TO SUPPORT FASCISM
This is what you are supporting.
"Why single out Israel?"
Because this is what Israel is proposing to do - why else?
Bringing another nation's behaviour is total (very appropriately here) garbage, as is comparing this with what happens with your WEALTHY FRIENDS IN BROXBOURNE - you have been given the Israeli health department's own statement on the state of this site. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A THIRD WORLD PART OF THE PLANET, NOT MIDDLE-CLASS BRITAIN, , WE ARE ALSO TALKING ABOUT AN IMPOVERISHED PEOPLE, NOT (BY YOUR OWN DESCRIPTION) WEALTHY BRITONS. UTTER AND COMPLETE IDIOCY.
YOU HAVE YET TO EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THE CORRECT DEFINITION OF "TOXIC" WHICH I HAVE APPLIED TO THE STATE OF THIS SITE.
The continuing repetition of the same arguments without offering a word of explanation or proof is a sure sign of creeping dementia.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:20 AM

pdq
Are you claiming that Palestinians have no right to be in Palestine - or anywhere for that matter?
Isn't that what you people are claiming the Arabs are saying about the Israelis?
What's your solution - concentration camps and gas ovens maybe, or simply dispersment all over the globe just like the ancient Egyptians did with the Jews?
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:24 AM

YOU have applied the term "toxic" but it is just an ordinary landfill site like the ones most of Ireland's garbage goes into.
Don't believe all the anti-Israel lies and propaganda.
Did you miss this?
"Israel today buries about 80 percent of its waste in proper landfills, while the rest is transferred to recycling facilities. ‏(There are some European countries that recycle 90 percent of all trash, but in most cases the rate of recycling there ranges from 50 to 60 percent.‏) The dumps are huge pits lined with woven plastic sheeting, and contain pipelines for syphoning off gases and leachate − or "garbage juice," as it is popularly called. Every day the trash unloaded at local dumps is covered; the landfill is closed down after the waste reaches a certain height. The authority in charge of each site is obligated thereafter to rehabilitate the landscape and to continue draining off leachate and gas."
Haaretz 2012

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM

""As Don says, after a time it is even safe to live on top of one, as my wealthy friends do in Broxbourne.""

Another half truth.

I also pointed out that our landfills are all in disused quarries or surface mine workings, in other words below ground level, allowing for a substantial depth of hardcore rubble and a heavy layer of soil.

How would you propose that anyone effectively cover a waste dump on the surface of an open hillside?

More likely it will be left to rot down and become truly toxic along with the disregarded humans forced to live right beside it.

The Bedouins are being used like a human buffer between the dump and the important citizens.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:48 AM

""It may be true, but the Israeli case is every bit as credible.
I have an open mind, but the evidence is equivocal.""

There are sufficient witnesses on one side of the argument to make it unlikely that they would be able to get away with lying, simply because, to be credible their separate stories have to tally very strongly. Given that most of them are individual soldiers, who would have had to wait until after leaving the army to come forward and give evidence, the time factor is arguably irrelevant (just another Keith red herring).

Stack up against that, a flat denial by the Israeli government, without any eye witness evidence from the rank and file who were there.

Doesn't sound good, does it? A jury would almost certainly bring in a guilty verdict.

A refusal to dignify an accusation with a defence, and/or treating said accusation with contempt (which was Israel's response), usually is a strong indicator of guilt.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:03 AM

""Around 250 Bedouins from the Jahalin group already live on the fringes of the As Sawahira dump, moved here by the Israeli authorities 15 years ago from land now occupied by the Ma'ale Adumim settlement. Their modest homes and huts are overlooked by piles of rubbish on one side and the Kfar Adumim settlement on the other.
"I'm sure the dump is very damaging for our health, but the Israelis moved us here – we had no choice," says Abu Jahalin, 70. He has heard of the plans to move thousands more Bedouins to the dump. He points to the proposed site with his walking stick, explaining that it will run all the way from the top of the hill, where his sheep graze, to the piles of rubbish.""

That doesn't equate, Keith, with the cozy sanitised account you have just posted with your usual sycophantic trust in whatever comes from the Israeli side of the argument.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM

"YOU have applied the term "toxic"
No I haven't - the term toxic has been applied to the site in several (obviously once again unread by you, despite your having claimed to have "read them all") links.
I have given you the dictionary definition of "toxic"; I have given you the Israeli health authority's assessment of the site and I have itemized the calculated effect on the water supply, coming into contact with other gasses, including domestic and I have described the possible effects on children entering a poorly fenced rubbish dump
,font color=red>PLEASE STOP AVOIDING ALL THESE POINTS - IF WHAT I HAVE DESCRIBED IS WRONG, PLEASE SHOW WHY OR WITHDRAW YOUR NONSENSICALLY DISHONEST CLAIMS - ONE OR T'OTHER.
And please explain why the forcible mass movement of communities to where their health will be put at risk and where they will be unable to follow their way of life or make a living is not STATE FASCISM>
And please respond to all the other points regarding your mind-numbing claim that the Israeli denial is the only evidence available and is in any way to be regarded as evidence and that it is the only account of the massacre to be taken seriously.
WHERE ELSE ON THIS PLANET IS THE STATEMENT OF SOMEBODY ACCUSED OF A SERIOUS CRIME TO BE REGARDED AS THE ONLY EVIDENCE TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY - SINCE WHEN DO ACCUSED CRIMINALS GET TO TRY THEMSELVES AND FIND THEMSELVES NOT GUILTY?   
PLEASE STOP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF IN PUBLIC - IT'S EMBARRASSING, FOR US, IF NOT FOR YOU.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 06:36 AM

Thought you might like to read this very moving letter (last year- so I'm afraid you might think it out-of date, and you might think the nurse Antisemitic because she doesn't support the Israeli version of events!!!)
Jim Carroll
A letter to the IDF soldiers at Sabra and Shatila
On the 30th anniversary of the Sabra and Shatila massacre, a Jewish American nurse who provided humanitarian aid in a Beirut hospital recalls her first encounter with IDF soldiers. Today, she asks them to take a few moments during the Jewish New Year to remember.

To the IDF soldiers who were at Sabra and Shatila,

September 2012 will mark the 30th anniversary of the massacre at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut. In 1982, the first day of Rosh Hashanah coincided with the final hours of that horrific event. This year, the first day of the Jewish New Year, September 16, corresponds with the opening hours of the killings.
I met you in 1982. I was working as a nurse at a hospital in Sabra. I arrived after Israel's invasion of Lebanon, soon after Israel refused to allow food, water, and vital medications into the besieged city. I was there as a humanitarian. Morally, I could not stand by and be silent while the destruction of a city and the killing and maiming of its people occurred.
Following the assassination of the newly-elected president of Lebanon in mid-September all hell broke loose. I listened as Israeli planes broke the sound barrier over the camps, heard continuous heavy artillery fire, and stayed away from shattering windows. For almost 48 hours, from September 16th to the 18th, I attempted to save the lives of those who were brought to the hospital. Many had severe wounds from being shot at close range. I cared for hundreds of terrified refugees seeking the safety of the hospital. I tried to comprehend the throat-slitting gesture the women made. I watched from a top floor of the hospital as flares were shot in the air. The flares illuminated areas of the camp; the sound of automatic weapons fire followed each illumination.
The first day of year 5743 was marked by the arrival of the Phalangists – you who were there remember that extremist militia – at the front of the hospital. They ordered the international health workers to assemble. They marched us down the main street of the camps: past dead bodies, past a bulldozer marked with a Hebrew letter which was shifting soil to cover over a large area where homes once stood. Many of the militia were using walkie-talkies. At one point, the soldiers lined us up against a bullet- ridden wall and pointed their rifles at us. After several minutes, they put their rifles down and marched us out of the camp.
They led us up a street to an abandoned UN building. In the courtyard we saw parts of IDF uniforms, discarded army rations and recent editions of the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth. After interrogating us, they took us across the street to the Israeli Defense Forces forward command post. It was located in a five story building that overlooked the surrounded camps; we saw soldiers looking down on the camps with binoculars. It was there that you and I first met.
A number of you had on kippot (skullcaps) and tallitot (prayer shawls) and were reading from prayer books. It was mid-morning; perhaps you were reciting the Amidah (the Prayer) which consists of many prayers including one for peace, goodness, blessings, kindness and compassion. One of you offered a nurse a piece of carefully wrapped honey cake – maybe your mother had given it to you to take along on your army duty. Traditionally, we begin the New Year by eating something sweet – usually honey cake – to symbolize our hopes for a sweet year. I have never forgotten this gesture. But as I think back, I am pained by the act of celebrating the Jewish New Year as thousands of innocents were buried in mass graves below. One of you said "Today is my Christmas." I knew what you meant. For us, this day begins ten days of introspection and repentance when the Book of Life is opened and our fate for the next year is sealed.

In September, I will return to Beirut, as I have every year – to remember, commemorate, visit the mass grave, reunite with survivors, stand next to those who lost loved ones and bear witness.
I wonder what has happened to you over the past three decades. I know that Emil Grunzweig, a Peace Now activist, was murdered in February of 1983, during a demonstration – one of the largest in Israel's history – demanding that Prime Minister Begin adopt the recommendations of the Kahan Commission that investigated the massacre. Lt. Avi Grabovsky testified before the Commission. Ari Folman made a movie: Waltz with Bashir.
What about the rest of you? Many of you have children, maybe grandchildren. Do you live in comfortable housing; do you feel a sense of safety and security in your homes and neighborhoods? Are you well fed? Did you obtain a proper education, earn a decent living, and have access to health care, travel? Do you enjoy life? What are you passing on to your next generation?
Let me tell you about what life is like for the Palestinians I know still living in Sabra and Shatila. More than 9,000 refugees live within one square kilometer. Most of the dwellings are overcrowded, damp, and poorly ventilated; some have tin roofs. Open sewage systems run through the camps. The population is vulnerable to hostilities between various political factions. Refugees are denied the right to work in most jobs. Impoverished, they depend on an already overworked and underfunded UNRWA for basic health services and education. Inadequate nutrition, chronic illnesses and poor health are common. Children are deprived of a good education. Many refugees have never been out of their camp! Third and fourth generations are being born, growing up, and dying in these camps. It is bleak and appalling. The future holds little hope for any improvement in their lives.
I know that you are not to blame for the way the Palestinian refugees live today. I just ask that you take a few moments during one of our holiest days to remember. I am thinking of both you and of the Palestinian refugees during this time and I wish for a better future for all of us.

To the soldier with the honey cake, to the one who told me it was his Christmas, and to the others, L'Shana Tovah 5773 – To a good year.
Ellen Siegel

Ellen Siegel is a Jewish American. She first visited Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon in 1972. Since that time she has been an active member and supporter of the Jewish and Israeli peace movements, and has supported the Palestinian solidarity cause. She volunteered her nursing services in 1982 during Israeli's war on Lebanon. She worked in Gaza Hospital, Sabra refugee camp in Beirut and was present during the massacre. She testified before the Kahan Commission of Inquiry. She continues to work part-time as a nurse in WDC, and serves on the Medical Committee of the American Near East Refugee Aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

A lucid support of Palestinian rights

This is an intelligent and well-thought-out response to the knee jerk Zionists who
equate Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions of the State of Israel to "Holocaust",
anti-semitism and other misleading so-called "anti Jewish" responses. These labels constitute a name-calling ad hominem attack and don't reflect the views of Jews worldwide. There are many Jews who call into question the Israeli occupation.

BDS movement is non-violent, not Hamas, and an appeal for justice for everyone,
Jew or non-Jew. The blinders that some have about Israeli occupation is a political
ploy used to discredit an honest discussion about the issue. This issue is not going
away because it is about civil rights for an oppressed minority that is analogous to the plight of the Native American, the African-American, and the indentured servitude of the Irish in the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 09:13 AM

Keith, maybe you will survive your toxic landfill but at what cost to you or the residents around you? This is thread creep and deserves its own thread. To rationalize any environmental toxic hazard as if it didn't matter reflects on the views of that rationale in application to other world events. The blinders don't stop at Israel, apparently.

It only shows that you can't disconnect one issue from others you have to connect the dots. The acceptance of the denial of the eco-problems we face is proportional to
the denial of the abuses of the State of Israel.

Thanks for at least making that clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 01:35 PM

Ordinary garbage sites are everwhere.
Properly managed there are no environmental issues.
Israel's sites ARE properly managed as described in the Haaretez piece.
All the "toxic" stuff is propaganda.
Don, Jim made the same quote on the 9th.
It is by Pheobe Greenwood



Greenwood is a clear example of what we at CiF Watch have termed in the past a 'journavist': someone promoting a political agenda by means of what the public assumes to be objective reporting.

Her increasingly frequent articles on the pages of the Guardian's Middle East section (cost-cutting in progress?) may initially appear to be little different from the often ideologically-motivated reports filed by Harriet Sherwood until one remembers that Greenwood's lightning apprenticeship for her new trade as 'Middle East Specialist' was learned not at a foreign editor's news desk, but at the knees of several of the more offensive anti-Israel charities at work in the region. That she claims to still work as a consultant with some of them indicates a continuing conflict of interests.

The fact that the Guardian is publishing supposedly serious reporting on the Middle East from a recently re-vamped former writer of celebrity gossip (with apparently no formal training in Middle East history, and whose 'expertise' on the subject was gained in a total of 22 months spent working on two far apart continents for a fairly notoriously biased charity) is hardly likely to cause regular CiF Watch readers to set aside their Christmas pudding or Hannuka donut in shock.

The 'miracle' of Phoebe Greenwood's meteoric transformation into a regular Guardian contributor with a self-described 'specialty' in the Middle East clearly has more to do with the fact that her 'progressive' one-sided approach dovetails very conveniently with the Guardian World View of the region rather than any boring, earthly factor such as knowledge, expertise or understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 02:43 PM

Thought you might like to read this very moving letter (last year- so I'm afraid you might think it out-of date, and you might think the nurse Antisemitic because she doesn't support the Israeli version of events!!!)

It is not out of date, but nothing she writes contradicts the Israeli version.

Robert Fisk. "Nor, let it be said – in 30 years – has a single Arab leader bothered to visit the last resting place of at least 600 of the 1,700 victims. Arab potentates bleed in their hearts for the Palestinians but an airfare to Beirut might be a bit much these days – and which of them would want to offend the Israelis or the Americans?

It is an irony – but an important one, nonetheless – that the only nation to hold a serious official enquiry into the massacre, albeit flawed, was Israel. "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 03:07 PM

This has now become a dialogue with a Dalek
You have not answered one single question or given one clarification.
ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

Phoebe Greenwood;
It is difficult not to notice that you didn't provide a link to this one, so I took a peep.
The item is no more than a snide attack on a legitimate journalist, attempting to put her and the Guardian over as antisemitic, which is not particularly surprising as it comes from a a site dedicated to
CIFWATCH
"MONITORING AND COMBATING ANTISEMITISM, AND THE ASSAULT ON ISRAEL'S LEGITIMACY, AT THE GUARDIAN AND ITS BLOG, 'COMMENT IS FREE."'
An Israeli propaganda site, no less.

These links all refer to Bedouins moved to toxic waste-containing sites.
It includes reports of Bedouin crops being deliberately sprayed by Toxins
Jim Carroll

www.economist.com/node/21536645
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/iopt0308/3.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/01/8024
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/2010/08/uprooting-weeds-by-devorah-brous-march.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_al-Na'am
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/313-washington-report-archives-2006-2010/september-october-2007/9446-jewish-american-activist-champions-cause-of-israels-disenfranchised-bedouin.html
http://lordsoftheblog.net/2012/07/10/the-bedouin-of-israel-the-west-bank-and-east-jerusalem/
https://theshalomcenter.org/content/israeli-jewish-renewal-report-bedouin-inside-israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:02 PM

Israel is the USA's proxy foothold in the Middle East and so is allowed to do what they like, be it annexing land, killing anyone who gets in its way and all of their actions being justified by people like Keith A of Hertford who are blinded by faith which Thomas Moore said should be subservient to reason (incorrectly in my opinion).
I fear for the future as either Israel will nuke or be nuked and whatever who does it first, both will be losers as will the rest of us. One cannot convince Keith that there are two sides to this storey, in his eyes Israel can do no wrong. This thread has flung up lots of valid evidence that Israel is rapidly becoming an isolated state in the Middle East and as such, very dangerouse to world peace. I sadly await the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:09 PM

What I like about Devorah Brous is her sense of balance. She freely admits that civil rights abuses happen throughout countries of the Middle East but also that they happen in Israel, too. Maybe folks could take a lesson from that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:13 PM

"Maybe folks could take a lesson from that."

And what I mean by that refers to partisans of either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:34 PM

Jim M
One cannot convince Keith that there are two sides to this storey,
I acknowledge both sides of the story Jim.
I am one of the very few people here who put Israel's side of the story.
That makes the one sided bigots so angry.

The dumps we are discussing are ordinary landfill sites just like those near me or the one my friends live on top of.
Israel manages them just as well as UK or Ireland or anywhere else.
" The dumps are huge pits lined with woven plastic sheeting, and contain pipelines for syphoning off gases and leachate − or "garbage juice," as it is popularly called. Every day the trash unloaded at local dumps is covered; the landfill is closed down after the waste reaches a certain height. The authority in charge of each site is obligated thereafter to rehabilitate the landscape and to continue draining off leachate and gas."

The source of the piece about Pheobe Greenwood was given in the text.
Which factual statement do you challenge?

Nurse Ellen Siegel says nothing against Israel.
She gave her testimony to the (Israeli)enquiry.
She acknowledges in that letter that the appalling living conditions of the Palestinian refugees can not be blamed on Israel, but on their Arab brethren.
The Palestinian Israelis are the lucky ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:45 PM

Nurse Ellen Siegel is misinformed. Giving testimony to an Israeli enquiry is asking the foxes to guard the henhouse. Complete B.S.

Israel is an occupier. That's their side of the story. Palestinians are suffering at the hands of Israeli government. That's their side of the story.

There are no two sides to this issue unless you are willing to defend occupation and abuse by one country to another. So would you look at the Nazi's side of the story? Makes no sense. How can atrocities by justified by a "side of the story"?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:49 PM

Nurse Ellen Siegel is not "misinformed."
She was there, and her story was not created long after the events.
It was Jim Carroll who placed her testimony on the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM

Your selecting an Israeli propaganda page, a sort of Israeli Lord Haw-Haw (or Tokyo Rose, for our American cousins), has, for me at least, brought this topic to a satisfactory conclusion, probably for the time being as you clearly intend to break your own nauseatingly racist 'Muslim Prejudice' record by dragging this thread out for as long as you can by not answering questions put to you.
What parts of the Phoebe Greenwood article do I dispute? - I'll do you a deal I WILL BE HAPPY TO DEBATE HER AND THE GUARDIAN'S COVERAGE OF ISRAELI ATROCITIES, AND ANY SUGGESTION THAT EITHER SHE OR ONE OF BRITAIN'S FINEST NEWSPAPER'S IS IN ANY WAY "ANTISEMITIC" IF YOU WILL DIRECTLY ANSWER THE MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS AND UNACKNOWLEDGED EVIDENCE PUT BEFORE YOU REGARDING ISRAELI WAR CRIMES Can't say fairer than that.
Anyway, Phoebe Greenwood's coverage has been swamped by a tsunami of articles on Israel, toxic materials and the Bedouin, to which you have yet to respond or even acknowledge.   
I am grateful that your choosing it has opened up a whole new can of worms; that of the Israeli practice of using toxins in solving the "Bedouin problem", not only in the form of forcing them next to toxic sites, but also as aerial crop-destroying chemical sprays used on Bedouin food supplies - you have the links - you won't follow them through, or probably not even read them, but I have no doubt others will.
These links where hastily gathered; (didn't want to miss University Challenge) there appears to be page after page of such links.
And we hadn't even got round to discussing SKUNK, the chemical spray designed, among other things, to make homes uninhabitable.
""Skunk" is a malodorant, non-lethal weapon used for crowd control by the Israeli Defense Forces. Deriving its name from the animal of the same name, "Skunk" is dispersed as a form of mist, fired from a water cannon, which leaves a terrible odor of rot or sewage on whatever it touches. It does not wash off easily and is said to linger on clothes for up to five years.[1] First attempts at developing a scent-based form of crowd control began in Israel in 2004; Skunk was first used for crowd control in September 2008."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_(weapon)
There was a recent article in the Irish Times (no doubt anther Antisemitic rag!!!) giving a description of its use.
Stone-throwers were sighted (aka invented), the truck turned up and sprayed the house (in this case a farmhouse), making it uninhabitable for possibly up to five years - a crude but effective land clearance technique - not sure where the UN stands on this form of chemical warfare against non-combatants.
This particular incident was filmed and photographed; no stone throwers were in evidence.
Anyway as you seem to have entered your 'Dalek' mode by refusing to qualify your arguments, answer questions directed to you, refute or even acknowledge direct proof put before you in form of (unread) links and cut-'n-pasted commentary; as far as I'm concerned there is little more to add at the present time.
BTW Nurse Ellen Siegal said it as she saw it - the Israeli soldiers witnessed the massacre over three days without attempting to stop it, and buried the bodies using Israeli bulldozers - it's in her letter - further participation in the massacre by Israeli troops is adequately covered elsewhere.
I certainly have no objection to her giving any evidence to any tribunal.
I'll leave you to it - off to Galway to hear about the songs arising from '1798' - have a good day y'all, d'ye hear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 04:37 AM

So not denying the factual statements about Greenwood.
It explains the false decription of an ordinary landfill site.
Just more propaganda.
I am not aware of "MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS."
Put them up and I promise to answer, but can't promise you will like it.

The nurse saw no direct involvement by IDF, and I acknowledge their shameful, indirect responsibility.

swamped by a tsunami of articles on Israel, toxic materials and the Bedouin,
I have to agree.
There are so many sites devoted to pumping out anti-israel propaganda.
That is all it is Jim.
Try not to be so gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 06:22 AM

"So not denying the factual statements about Greenwood."
Not even bothered to follow through this non-event you are trying to hype up - I have made no claims of the veracity of her articles - I put it up because it dealt with the subject we are discussing.
You have before you a load of information not only on toxic sites, but also of toxic sprays being used on Bedouin crops
You are lying (not even you are that stupid) when you say you are unaware...... - one more try though.
Don and I have repeatedly pointed out evidence on toxicity of the site - you not answered which I take as a refusal.
"I have given you the dictionary definition of "toxic"; I have given you the Israeli health authority's assessment of the site and I have itemized the calculated effect on the water supply, coming into contact with other gasses, including domestic and I have described the possible effects on children entering a poorly fenced rubbish dump "
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 06:30 AM

Or in more detail.
Jim Carroll
"My dictionary gives "toxic" as harmful, destructive or deadly poisonous, and that is the is the situation on this site.
The materials on the site become toxic if they get into the water supply, that is a fact recognised by the Israeli authorities and stated as such - you have been given that statement.
They become toxic when coming into contact with some gasses, include those with domestic uses - also a documented fact and given to you.
Those toxins remain in the ground years, possibly decades after the site has been used, especially dangerous to any water supply - also commented on by those involved in the health of the country.
The perimeter fence is insecure, making possible - likely that children and enter the site and come into contact with rotting material which could make them ill and even kill them - this is true of any rubbish dump of this size and is recognised to be the case.
In addition to this, the gasses given off could cause fire and explosion - stated by the Health authorities.
Tell us which of these is not true.
Whether the site is being used to dump specifically recognised toxic material it totally irrelevant; I have never claimed that to be the case.
The site is toxic by its very existence – it contains material that can kill and it has been stated as being such - that's in several of your unread links.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 06:36 AM

""All the "toxic" stuff is propaganda.
Don, Jim made the same quote on the 9th.
It is by Pheobe Greenwood""

YEAH, YEAH!....WHATEVVAH!

We get it Keith. The whole world is antisemitic and only Israel is ever right.

You have made your allegiance abundantly clear, to the point of sanctioning the covering up of two massacres of men, women and children, whose crime was to be refugees from the actions of your heroes.

You say Phoebe Greenwood writes from bias. Even if true (which I doubt), you more than balance her.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 07:07 AM

Don and I have repeatedly pointed out evidence on toxicity of the site - you not answered which I take as a refusal.

Not evidence just hyped up propaganda.
We have established that they are ordinary refuse land-fill sites.
Such sites have the potential to become toxic.
That is all your "evidence" is about.

We have also established that the landfill sites are properly run, so there is no issue of toxicity.

Now I have responded fully, to that same point, one more time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 07:30 AM

Re Greenwood's piece.
"Their modest homes and huts are overlooked by piles of rubbish on one side and the Kfar Adumim settlement on the other."

Modest homes that replaced their tents, and which have electricity, running water and sanitation.
Piles of rubbish?
Each day's rubbish is buried that day.
"I'm sure the dump is very damaging for our health, "
How could it make them ill?
It could not but if there was evidence it did they could sue.

So we KNOW she wrote false propaganda, the Cif Watch FACTS just explain why she does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 08:54 AM

Antisemitism as defined by the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)

    Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for 'why things go wrong'.

The EUMC then goes on to cite specific examples of antisemitism including:

    Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

    Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

    Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

    Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

    Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

    Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Specifically with respect to Israel, taking into account the overall context, the EUMC gave the following examples:

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

    Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

    Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

    Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 12:05 PM

Israel deserves to be castigated for what it has done in terms of the settlements. But the people here who choose to target that have never to my knowledge targeted Muslim activities that rational people would see as inhuman/e. Few have said a thing about human rights violations elsewhere in the Middle East because there are no Jews involved. I see them as Jew haters regardless their protestations of innocence, because it is always Israelis being singled out for their attacks. In the parlance, fuck 'em. The only violations they care to talk about are Israeli violations. Yes, there are many of them. There are also innumerable Muslim violations they never mention. Their silence about that speaks loudly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM

To return to Jim M's post.
in his eyes Israel can do no wrong.

Not true Jim.
All countries sometimes behave badly in self interest.
Israel is no different, but these extreme crimes are denied, and the hard evidence is just not there.
Can no-one produce an unequivocal accusation?

This thread has flung up lots of valid evidence that Israel is rapidly becoming an isolated state in the Middle East
Israel has ALWAYS been isolated.
The surrounding Arab armies tried to over-run and destroy it on day one, and it has been under threat or actual attack ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 02:59 PM

""The EUMC then goes on to cite specific examples of antisemitism including:""

Not once have I expressed hatred or even dislike toward Jews or even Israel as a nation. I have been very careful indeed to make it clear that I am talking about the Zionists of the current Israeli government, of whom every devout follower of Judaism should be thoroughly ashamed, and I believe most of them are.

So point out exactly where any of those examples apply to me if you can.

I think I would find it easier to show up your hatred of Muslims and Arabs.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 04:29 AM

    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Jim C does that.

    Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Don, you have endlessly criticised Israel for their perceived ill treatment of Bedouin, but you have never once criticised Egypt for their actual persecution and marginalisation of them, denying them even basic citizenship and employment rights.
Nothing to do with Zionism there.

You have frequently denounced Israel for other perceived crimes but never their Arab neighbours Syria, Gaza, Egypt or Jordan.
Again, not Zionism but favouring any state over the Jewish one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:28 AM

""Don, you have endlessly criticised Israel for their perceived ill treatment of Bedouin, but you have never once criticised Egypt for their actual persecution and marginalisation of them, denying them even basic citizenship and employment rights.
Nothing to do with Zionism there.""

We all have plenty of evidence of your highly selective notions of what is, or is not pertinent to any topic.

Taking a leaf out of your book, I stick to the topic of Israel in a thread about Israel.

If you feel inclined to start a thread about how badly the Egyptians treat the Bedouins, I will be right there with you in deploring and castigating them and their actions.

If however, you want me to subscribe to your ridiculous claim that the evil actions of Egypt, or Syria, or any other nation not under discussion, somehow excuse any excesses of the Israeli government, dream on. I'm not that stupid.

And if, in a thread about Egypt's excesses you were to align yourself with Egypt and try to excuse them, the response from me would be exactly the same as you have received here.

War crimes, crimes against humanity and infringements of human and civil rights are not a competition in which there are minor miscreants who get a free pass because someone else is worse, and only a biased and bigotted individual would try to claim otherwise.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:31 AM

""Not true Jim.
All countries sometimes behave badly in self interest.""

Lip service Keith?

Put up one comment of yours on this thread which even implies that Israel bears the slightest responsibility for the current hostility in Palestine, particularly the West Bank and Gaza.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:39 AM

Israel deserves to be castigated for what it has done in terms of the settlements. But the people here who choose to target that have never to my knowledge targeted Muslim activities that rational people would see as inhuman/e. Few have said a thing about human rights violations elsewhere in the Middle East because there are no Jews involved. I see them as Jew haters regardless their protestations of innocence, because it is always Israelis being singled out for their attacks. In the parlance, fuck 'em. The only violations they care to talk about are Israeli violations. Yes, there are many of them. There are also innumerable Muslim violations they never mention. Their silence about that speaks loudly.

That is simply unfair, Bruce. I don't see anyone around here singing the praises of undemocratic Arab or Islamic regimes. The fact is that we know about the outrages perpetrated in some of those countries, particularly with regard to treatment of women, gay people and other minorities. So why aren't there more threads about them? Why aren't there more threads about North Korea? Why aren't there more threads about the repression of Catholics by the Church in Africa? There simply isn't the passion to get stuff going, that's all. The reason there are lots of Israel threads is that there is a massive pro-Israel groundswell in the west, fed by pro-Israel lobby groups which also happen to have a firm hand on the tiller of the media. I contend that people in the US in particular, but in other western countries too, do not get anything like both sides of the story (and in my opinion it shows all too clearly). The people here who you're calling Jew-haters are trying to redress the balance. To put the other side. If you still think that Israel is a shining light of civilisation surrounded by a bunch of cut-throat tribal savages, then I'm afraid you're simply not looking past what Fox News or those of similar sentiment tell you. The human rights abuses that go on within the boundaries of Israel are no different to the ones we all condemned when they occurred in South Africa and those to which we look back in shame when they occurred in the deep south. The best land is stolen, families are divided, people are prevented from moving freely around, you are far more likely to be unemployed, etc. etc. Go on, why don't you tell me that the Israeli Arabs are inferior and have brought it all on themselves - and tar yourself with your own brush? We heard all that before in apartheid South Africa, in white Rhodesia and in the southern states before the civil rights movement. And the only people around here who keep mentioning Jews are the suckers who have fallen into the Zionist trap of calling all anti-Israel sentiment anti-Jew sentiment. It is no such thing, Bruce. As an ardent member of the camp you are so quick to denigrate, I can tell you that I would lock up anyone who threatened the existence of Israel, I would lock up anyone who publicly denied the Holocaust and I would lock up anyone preaching true antisemitism (which says that Jews are inferior or have undesirable traits en masse). I also condemn Hamas's rockets targeted at civilians. I have said these things many times, as have many of the other so-called "Jew-haters" you refer to, but I get the distinct impression that the pro-everything-Israel camp are so hoodwinked by their grooming by the media to hear only one side that they occasionally bring the trait over here as well. It's called denial, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:12 AM

If however, you want me to subscribe to your ridiculous claim that the evil actions of Egypt, or Syria, or any other nation not under discussion, somehow excuse any excesses of the Israeli government, dream on. I'm not that stupid.

And if, in a thread about Egypt's excesses you were to align yourself with Egypt and try to excuse them, the response from me would be exactly the same as you have received here.

There never is such a thread.
You lot ONLY AND ALWAYS SINGLE OUT ISRAEL, ignoring the far greater excesses and crimes of all the other countries in the region.

Put up one comment of yours on this thread which even implies that Israel bears the slightest responsibility for the current hostility in Palestine
I am almost a lone voice putting Israel's side of the story.
There are enough of you putting the case against!

The OP was all lies against Israel, but here you all are still supporting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:47 AM

Resorting to hysteria now, Keith, are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

Don,


"
Taking a leaf out of your book, I stick to the topic of Israel in a thread about Israel.
"

Yet in a thread about EGYPT and GAZA, YOU make it about Israel and its supporters...






Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:33 AM

Egypt has its own malcontents, dissidents and nutjobs, all of whom were, and still are, very active following the change of regime.

The Egyptians' claim that Palestinians were responsible is both unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, but of course all the anti Gaza brigade will take Satan's word over that of Hamas

Just another escalation of pressure on the Gaza strip. Israel will be pleased!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 09:22 AM

You mean to say Israel WON'T be pleased, Bruce?

Please elaborate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM

"Not evidence just hyped up propaganda."
Can I remind you that you have recently admitted that the only evidence you have offered for the Guardian and her staff being antisemitic has been taken from a site that proclaims itself as "MONITORING AND COMBATING ANTISEMITISM, AND THE ASSAULT ON ISRAEL'S LEGITIMACY, AT THE GUARDIAN AND ITS BLOG, 'COMMENT IS FREE."' IE a self declared propaganda site for hiding Israeli atrocities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM

Keith,
I wonder if you can clear up something that's been bothering me for some time?
I recently stumbled across an old argument of ours discussing British fascists who supported Hitler and the Nazis prior to and during WW2.
I had pointed out that were quite a number of them who came from the upper echelons of British society – Sir Oswald Mosely, the Mitford 'gel', Lord Rothermere (owner of The Daily Mail), Hon. Mrs Ismay Ramsay, 5th Duke of Wellington, William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw) even King, Edward VIII and his lovely wife.
You dismissed them all as a handful of harmless nutters of no significance – i.e, you defended anti-Semitism by dismissing the fact that a significant number of people in powerful positions had banded together to form an organisation to promote it (this was in the run-up to and during WW2, when, had Hitler come to power, the word's Jews would have suffered the fate of the six million).
One particular name cropped up; Member of Parliament, Archibald Maule Ramsay, who set up 'The Right Club', which discussed, among other things, how they should handle "The Jewish Threat" after Hitler won the war.
He compiled a book entitled 'The Red Book' (the Independent Newspaper had just re-discovered it at the time of our argument) which listed British people who needed to be dealt with when Germany won.
It also published several poems, including (to be sung to the tune of 'Land of Hope and Glory'):

Land of dope and Jewry
Land that once was free
All the Jew boys praise thee
Whilst they plunder thee

Poorer still and poorer
Grow thy true-born sons
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance
Fooled by Jewish lies
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But—by the God of battles
'Twill serve to hang them yet.

You dismissed this as harmless, comparing it to (I kid you not) 'Who Do You Think You're Kidding Mr Hitler", (which you believed to be a World-War-Two song) i.e. as harmless as a sit-com theme song.
Sorry to have gone on for so long (hope there aren't too many words for you to follow) , but I was wondering; WHEN THE **** DID YOU METAMORPHOSE FROM SOMEONE WHO IS PREPARED TO DEFEND BRITISH FACISM BY DOWNGRADING ITS IMPORTANCE, TO A RABID APOLOGIST WHO ACCUSES EVERBODY WHO EXPRESSES DISGUST AT ISRAEL'S NAZI-LIKE BEHAVIOUR AS BEING "ANTI-SEMITIC"
Would appreciate an answer to this one.
Jim Carroll
PS. Am happy to provide a link to this argument, should you care to deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 12:44 PM

"You lot ONLY AND ALWAYS SINGLE OUT ISRAEL, ignoring the far greater excesses and crimes of all the other countries in the region."

This is untrue and an excuse by the Zionist fanatics used to discredit their critics.
Quite a lot has been said about abuses by Hamas, and other Mid-East countries and organizations but this doesn't take Israel off the hook. These fanatics hide behind accusations of anti-Semitism and invoke the Holocaust as another weapon used against Zionist critics. Alan Dershowitz is well known for this attack mode, an esteemed lawyer who has a blind spot when it comes to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:03 PM

Jim.
Archibald Henry Maule Ramsay .... went into politics as a Scottish Unionist Member of Parliament (MP). From the late 1930s he developed increasingly strident antisemitic views. In 1940, after his involvement with a suspected spy at the United States embassy, he became the only British MP to be interned under Defence Regulation 18B.

His mad poem was not published , never recorded and no record of anyone outside his mad club ever singing it.

Never miss an opportunity to attack Britain or Israel Jim, whatever the subject of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:19 PM

No answer to why you defended British fascism Keith, and are continuing to do so here, but beside the point.
Please answer the question;
WHEN THE **** DID YOU METAMORPHOSE FROM SOMEONE WHO IS PREPARED TO DEFEND BRITISH FACISM BY DOWNGRADING ITS IMPORTANCE, TO A RABID APOLOGIST WHO ACCUSES EVERYBODY WHO EXPRESSES DISGUST AT ISRAEL'S NAZI-LIKE BEHAVIOUR AS BEING "ANTI-SEMITIC
Will have plenty more demands for answers to the questions you have so far avoided and for all the links you have lied about and not even read.
I listed 22 to these that you have so far ignored and there have been many more since.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:33 PM

Slightly OT.............

The Isreali documentary film "The Gatekeepers" is Oscar nominated. In it, 6 former heads of Shin Bet talk bluntly about, amongst other things, illegal settlements and government policies. Israel apologists will not like the film.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:47 PM

The post where I mentioned the song.
It begins with a quote by you which turned out to be a lie.
No British minister or any politician ever said any such disgusting thing.

16 Dec 10

"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

Who was it?
What is your source?
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 05:39 PM

Necessary to point out to Jim, yet again, that to use the word "Nazi" in conncection with anything Israeli-connected, whatever the apparent or pleaded motivation or justification, is a purposeful piece of provocative antisemitism any way you slice it.

In the useful formulation, Jim, of that barrister character in Shaw's 'You Never Can Tell': you think it isn't but it is.

This shall be my sole contribution on this occasion to the ever-ongoing, this·one·will·run·&·run, Carroll·&·Keith Show, whose continuance shows no sign of ever coming to an end, to the egregious delectation of the entire Cat-Community [NOT!].

שלום

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:49 PM

Necessary to point out to Jim, yet again, that to use the word "Nazi" in conncection with anything Israeli-connected, whatever the apparent or pleaded motivation or justification, is a purposeful piece of provocative antisemitism any way you slice it.

Simplistic rubbish, Michael. Now I don't employ that word in this context myself because I do have at least some regard for the outcomes of my remarks, but (and I shouldn't really have to point this out to you) any comment that is Israel-related, whether the word Nazi is incorporated or not, is only antisemitic if it refers to all Jews being inferior in some way or all Jews having undesirable traits. Alternatively, it could be a comment in which "Jew" is gratuitously employed in a derogatory way ("I noticed that that bloody Jew didn't pay his bus fare!" instead of "I noticed that that bloody chap didn't pay his bus fare!") Let's stick with this and assume as default that comments referring to Israel normally refer to the Zionist tendencies of its leaders and, perhaps, to some of the hoodwinked people. I would be antisemitic if I said that the Jewish lobby in the US tries to manipulate the government in Israel's favour (AIPAC contains many Christians as well as various pillocks of other persuasions). If I said that the Israel lobby/pro-Israel lobby was doing it, that would not be antisemitic, even if I called them Nazis. That would be unwise and inaccurate, but it would not be antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:35 PM

As an addendum to MtheGM's post I should point out to those who direct their their venom at Zionism or the "state of Israel" that many both within and without the Jewish community consider that tantamount to antisemitism. From Wiki:

New antisemitism is the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, emanating simultaneously from the far-left, radical Islam, and the far-right, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel. The concept generally posits that much of what purports to be criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:54 PM

""Taking a leaf out of your book, I stick to the topic of Israel in a thread about Israel.
"

Yet in a thread about EGYPT and GAZA, YOU make it about Israel and its supporters...""

The problem with you and the other Zionist supporters is that you never read anything thoroughly unless it comes out of the Isareli propaganda machine BB.

I merely pointed out that Egypt's claim was unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, while (and this is the bit you chose not to see) the Muslim brotherhood asserted quite strongly that Israel WAS responsible.

Presenting half the story is a serious fault of yourself and Keith.

Do you really believe that we will just let you get away with it?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 08:04 PM

""As an addendum to MtheGM's post I should point out to those who direct their their venom at Zionism or the "state of Israel" that many both within and without the Jewish community consider that tantamount to antisemitism. From Wiki:""

And many within the ranks of worldwide Jewry, both witin and without Israel, are by that reckoning antsemitic.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 08:14 PM

As a matter of fact, considering MtheGM's expressed disppointment and disapproval of the actions of the current Israeli government, you would, I think, be placing him in the antisemitic camp.

His objection to the points raised by Jim centres around the provocative use of "Holocaust" and "Nazi" in relation to Israel, on which point (sorry Jim), I am in agreement with him. It crosses a line which I believe should never be crossed.

Having said that, I think that the government of Israel cynically crosses the same line by invoking their status as victims of the Nazis to justify doing whatever they see fit to their neighbours.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 02:41 AM

I merely pointed out that Egypt's claim was unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, while (and this is the bit you chose not to see) the Muslim brotherhood asserted quite strongly that Israel WAS responsible.
Don, you refer to a different thread.

Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood hate Israel (Jews?) and blame them for all evil.
When the incursion happened, blaming Israel was a knee jerk reaction.

However, power brings responsibility.
They clearly knew who was really responsible, and had to take action to stop it happening again.
They closed and flooded all the tunnels from Gaza, and took no action nor made any more statements against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:13 AM

"Necessary to point out to Jim, yet again, that to use the word "Nazi" in connection with anything Israeli-connected,"
And it is necessary to point out to Mike that ring-fencing discussing levels of behaviour which are comparable to techniques, used by the Nazis against the Jews, in style, if not in scope, as "not being able to go there" is evading the issue. I have never, nor would I suggest that Israeli behaviour is anything like comparable in scope to the Holocaust (capital H), but I fail to see how facilitating the systematic and cold blooded slaughter of 3,000 refugees is not comparable with Nazi behaviour.
Describing revulsion of such behaviour as "antisemitic" is as antisemitic as it gets.
Accusing your opponents of Antisemitism when they suggest that Israel's behaviour towards Gazan non-combatants, Bedouins, refugees - anybody who stands in the way of their expansionist policy really.... is to directly identify the Jewish people with massacres, chemical warfare, indiscriminate slaughter, forcible seizure of land, destruction of homes.... you name it, the Israelis are doing it.
The criticisms here are directed at the Israelis - I suggest you go and look up the word Antisemitism in your dictionary if you believe otherwise – mine gives "Hostility or prejudice towards Jews".
The Israelis are not The Jewish People, nor do they represent them by their behaviour - THE ONLY ANTISEMITES HERE ARE THOSE WHO SUGGEST THAT CRITICISM OF THAT BEHAVIOUR IS "ANTISEMITIC", THEREBY IDENTIFYING WAR CRIMES AND HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AS JEWISH   
"Carroll and Keith show"
Keith consistently takes over these threads, feels it necessary to answer everybody's points, polices the discussions by ordering people how and what to discuss, manipulates them by attempting to swerve the discussion in the direction he wishes it to take, numerically dominates them with his postings and invariably insists on having the last word - go and check if you doubt any of this.
To allow him to do this is to concede this forum to somebody who, in my opinion, wishes to use it as a platform for peddling bigotry and race/cultural hatred.
He often has a fairy godmother/father to assist him in his endeavours, on this occasion she/he appears to be otherwise occupied.
"Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood hate Israel (Jews?) and blame them for all evil."
Would this be the same Muslim brotherhood whose actions you were using to prove that Hamas was responsible for the killing of Egyptian policemen?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM

Keith consistently takes over these threads, feels it necessary to answer everybody's points,

You usually criticise me for NOT answering ANYONE's points!
Which is it?

I do not think my little posts dominate a thread.
Not like your massive, multi-coloured, multi-fonted extravaganzas.

All my little posts put together do not come close to matching your output Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:47 AM

"I fail to see how facilitating the systematic and cold blooded slaughter of 3,000 refugees is not comparable with Nazi behaviour."
.,.,.,
Slightly breaking my promise not to join this thread [not 'otherwise occupied', Jim; just bored!], I would rejoin to this point by ref to the implications of the fine Law propounded by Mr Godwin as to the desperation of achieving adequate arguments which such comparisons on these threads imply; and point out moreover Don's agreement that such usage has an associative element that exceeds the decent boundaries of acceptability. You think it doesn't but it does. Are you really so insensitive as not to perceive how & why such is the case? I should be grieved to think so, and would sincerely like to think better of you than such an intransigent attitude would suggest.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:35 AM

A truce.
I find the behaviour of the Israelis as I have described, but I am happy to take Don's and Mike's points on board and will no longer make the comparison. It is not my intention to hurt or insult anybody and I if I have, I apologise unreservedly for having done so.   
"You usually criticise me for NOT answering ANYONE's points!"
You dominate these threads by saying precisely nothing at length and putting a great deal of time, space and effort into avoiding answering anyone's points - interminably.
"All my little posts put together do not come close to matching your output Jim."
I totally agree, nor anybody else's, if you are referring to substance, but numerically you're streets ahead of anybody on this forum.
Want me to reassess this thread for you - and when it comes to your Herculean efforts on the Muslim Prejudice thread....
I do hope you're prepared to put a bet on this Keith - I could do with a long holiday in the sun.
"Not like your massive, multi-coloured, multi-fonted extravaganzas."
And once again you appear to be instruct others how to make their contributions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:41 AM

Several people put points specifically to me, so I am expected to respond.
Even so, I doubt my words exceed yours Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:06 AM

M
Didn't quite finish.
I find being accused of being "intransigent" a little odd from somebody who has put the time and effort into defending the most stupidly intransigent individual I have ever encountered.
And BTW, there is nobody more sorry than me that things have turned out between us the way they have; maybe there's something to be said for the "no religion, no politics" signs you see in pubs!
If you really are "bored", why not try a good book? If you haven't already, I would highly recommend Markus Zusak's 'The Book Thief'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:13 AM

""Don, you refer to a different thread.""

I wasn't talking to you Keith, but responding to Bobad, who referred to my comments (or at least the part of them he wanted to emphasise) in that other thread. I responded to point out the bit he had somewhat sneakily left out.

Has he been taking lessons fom you?

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""They closed and flooded all the tunnels from Gaza, and took no action nor made any more statements against Israel.""

So one allegation can be ignored, if not repeated? How facile and devious!

The allegation was made, and the Muslim Brotherhood hates Israel just about as much as Israel hates the Muslim Brotherhood, so when it's a case of one's word against the other, I don't profess to know who, in this specific instance, is telling the truth.

You, on the other hand, automatically and without serious consideration decide that Israel is the truth teller, based on an almost religious belief in their veracity, which has been proven unjustified on many occasions.

The Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas and Israel are equally likely to lie when it is to their advantage, but you only ever believe what comes out of the Israeli propaganda machine.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:29 AM

Only 'bored' with this partic topic, Jim. Have just got a previously unread Ben Elton from Amazon which I propose to read this afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 08:39 AM

So one allegation can be ignored, if not repeated? How facile and devious!

If they REALLY believed Israel responsible, they would not have flooded the tunnels, and certainly not in the middle of sensitive talks with Hamas to improve relations.
They have to spout the required propaganda, but their actions reveal their true belief.

Why do YOU think they flooded the tunnels Don?
Aquarobics?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 10:39 AM

"If they REALLY believed Israel responsible, they would not have flooded the tunnels,"
You seem to be thread drifting from one thread to the other now, while complaining about others doing it within the same thread.
And you are still referring to (and ignoring the fact that this has been pointed out to you on several occasions) a regime that you have described as repressive and have used constantly as an excuse for Israeli human rights abuses.
Are you really holding up a government that is under pressure from it's own people for its repressive and undemocratic nature.
The motive behind Egypt flooding the tunnels has been adequately explained elsewhere - don't suppose you bothered to read that one either.
"Why do YOU think they flooded the tunnels Don?"
Hamas and the Palestinians played no part in the killing of the Egyptian policeman and have not been accused of such by anybody other than those with a similar agenda as your own - the defending of a terrorist state's war crimes.
I suppose it's a waste of time asking you to present actual evidence that they have!
Jim Carroll

To repeat, in the vain hope.......
"Christian Science Monitor again
"Israel and Egypt have closed their official border crossings with Gaza until further notice, and Egyptian and Hamas officials have shut down the hundreds of tunnels that are used to smuggle food, fuel, and construction materials to the Israel-blockaded seaside territory because Egypt believes that the gunmen tried to escape into Gaza through them."
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2012/0806/Sinai-attack-seals-up-Gaza-to-outside-world-video
"The funeral ceremonies were disrupted by PRO-MILITARY HECKLERS" (Your "angry mourners" I believe J.C."who chanted slogans against President Mohammed Morsi of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood and Gaza's Hamas rulers."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57488629/16-egyptian-soldiers-killed-in-sinai-buried/"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:34 AM

Thread drift.
Don T raised this issue this morning. I pointed out it was the wrong thread. You must have missed that Jim.

,i>The motive behind Egypt flooding the tunnels has been adequately explained elsewhere
Yes it has.
To prevent another incursion from Gaza.

Your Christian Science piece was in the immediate aftermath.
The flooding of the tunnels, making the closure permanent, was seven months later.
The Brotherhood are clearly now certain where the incursion came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:57 AM

Once again you prove that you never read responses in full. BOBAD raised the point and I responded to him. You then stuck your nose in for your twopence worth of anti Muslim crap.

You really should make up your mind. In one sentence yo are calling the Egyptians bloody liars, and in the next your applauding them for shutting Gaza down.

Who gains most from the shutdown?.......Israel!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:12 PM

""The Brotherhood are clearly now certain where the incursion came from.""

They certainly haven't said so. Do you have a mole in the Brotherhood feeding you inside info Keith?

Taking into consideration the previous record of Mossad and Israel's special forces units, it is entirely credible that they might carry out such an action from Gaza. More credible perhaps than Hamas upsetting the applecart during delicate negotiations with Egypt.

Israel certainly would go to considerable lengths to prevent any such detente.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:38 PM

"I pointed out it was the wrong thread."
That's what I just said.
I trust we have now seen the back of your continually trying to manipulate threads by accusing others of "thread drift" - now we need to tackle "out of date" and pointing at other nations crimes to excuse artrocities, then who knows, you might even try reading what others put up - whoops, was that a pig flying past the window?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:53 PM

"The Brotherhood are clearly now certain where the incursion came from."
Would very much appreciate a link to this information, especially as it has been stated that Egyptians were almost certainly implicated in the killings
Jim Carroll

The Morsi era
By: Abid Mustafa | February 21, 2013 . 0
Ever since assuming the office of the presidency, Mohammed Morsi has worked resolutely to portray himself as a moderate Islamist working independent of American influence for the betterment of Egypt and the region. But beneath the veneer of Islamic rhetoric surrounding his domestic and foreign policy actions, Morsi is no better than his predecessor Mubarak - the former custodian of US interests in the region.
On the domestic front, Morsi can claim that the opposition has not permitted his government enough time to push through reforms that will address Egypt's battered economy, restore law and order, and improve the lives of ordinary Egyptian people. This is despite the fact that such reforms are formulated under the auspices of IMF stipulations for Egypt's government to revise its economic agenda in order to qualify for the $4.8 billion loan.
The IMF spokesman, Gerry Rice, said: "We understand the Egyptian authorities have been working on revising their economic programme. And once this step is completed, we will discuss the timing of a possible mission to Cairo to assess the revised programme." The delay has prompted America's rating agency, Moody, to downgrade Egypt's credit worthiness. Thus, USA's economic enslavement of Egypt continues via the IMF and Moody, regardless of the claims made by Morsi's government of following a sovereign economic policy.
On the foreign policy front, Morsi cannot conceal his pro-American credentials behind the wall of protestors. His foreign policy is distinctively American and in many ways is more than Mubarak's era.
Consider his treatment of Palestinians living in Gaza. On February 13, 2013, Egypt without warning flooded Gaza tunnels that are a lifeblood of the Palestinian people living in concentration camp like conditions in Gaza, which for all intents and purposes is controlled by the cowardly Jewish state.
The tunnels bring in everything from food and medicine to cement and iron, providing up to 75 percent of the goods to a population of 1.6 million people. An Egyptian security official in the Sinai told Reuters: "We are using water to close the tunnels by raising water from one of the wells."
Meanwhile, Hamas has been reluctant to criticise Morsi in public, but the Gazan's are more outspoken about Hamas' naivety and Morsi's brutality. "Egyptian measures against tunnels have worsened since the election of Morsi. Our Hamas brothers thought he would open up Gaza. I guess they were wrong," said a tunnel owner, who identified himself only as Ayed, fearing reprisal. "Perhaps, 150 or 200 tunnels have been shut since the Sinai attack. This is the Morsi era," he added.
So, Morsi's government has exploited the attacks on the Egyptian forces in Sinai in August 2012 to drive a ruthless campaign to close as many tunnels as possible and bolster the security of the Jewish state ahead of the much anticipated resumption of the dormant peace process. With Palestinian unity talks planned in the days ahead, Netanyahu weakened by the recent elections and Obama scheduled to visit the Jewish state in March 2013, Washington is keen to create the right atmosphere to give a vital push for peace between the Arabs and the Jewish state.
Central to the commencement of peace talks is the security of the Jewish state, and Morsi like his predecessor is doing his utmost to meet American and Jewish expectations. Nonetheless, the timing of the recent operation is intended to mollify Jewish criticism of America's delivery of four F-16 aircraft to the Egyptian air force.
Likewise, Morsi's close ties with Iran to find a political solution to the crisis in Syria that preserves remnants of Assad's regime bears the hallmark of America's intended solution.
America has been working tirelessly with Iran, Turkey, Egypt, Gulf countries as well as with the EU and Russia to protect Assad's regime in some form through a variety of initiatives - the latest being the Brahimi Plan. This will ensure the continuation of its hegemony over the Levant.
Within this context, Morsi visited Tehran in September 2012 and spoke of Iran as a pivotal stakeholder in finding a solution to the Syrian crisis. He said: "(Iran) a main player in the region that could have an active and supportive role in solving the Syrian problem.......I don't see the presence of Iran in this quartet (Turkey, Egypt, Iran and Saudi Arabia) as a problem, but is a part of solving the problem." This also explains why Morsi, a few days ago, warmly greeted Ahmadinejad.
His treatment of the Iranian President attracted the ire of some of Morsi's close supporters such as Daawa Salafiyya, which issued a statement: "Egypt is committed to the protection of all Sunni nations." Hence within a space of a few months, Morsi has managed to surpass Mubarak and do what his predecessor failed to do, i.e. forge a working relationship with Iran to safeguard US interests in the Levant.
America is mightily pleased with the domestic and foreign policy actions undertaken by Morsi's government. On February 3, 2013, US Ambassador to Egypt Anne Patterson said: "We look to Egypt to continue to serve as a force for peace, security and leadership as the Middle East proceeds with its challenging yet essential journey towards democracy."
There are important lessons for Egyptians to learn from Morsi's rule:
First, by simply calling for the ouster of a brutal dictator only to be replaced by someone who overtly expresses his faith in Islam is a folly of enormous proportions and will not change the plight of the people.
Second, the real cause of misery for Egyptians is the current system through which America continues to colonise the country. Unless the system is eradicated from its roots, the people will continue to suffer under Washington's colonial policies implemented by its loyalists in the present regime - be they Islamists or liberals.
Third, the only alternative to the present decadent system is the Islamic Sharia and not Western liberal democracy, as advocated by the short-sighted liberals. Western liberal democracy along with capitalism is dying and even people in the West are eagerly looking for an alternative system. But for Islamic Sharia to succeed, it has to be implemented holistically not in a piecemeal fashion, as championed by Muslim brotherhood and its supporters.
Fourthly, the only practical way to realise the implementation of the Sharia in domestic and foreign policy areas is through the re-establishment of the Caliphate. Only the Caliphate can guarantee an independent economic and foreign policy free from Western interference.
The writer is a political commentator, who specialises in Muslim affairs and global politics.
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/columns/21-Feb-2013/the-morsi-era

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:57 PM

yo are calling the Egyptians bloody liars, and in the next your applauding them for shutting Gaza down
I have done neither Don.
I have taken Egypt's decision to close the tunnels in response to the incursion as sound evidence that they think the tunnels were used in the incursion.
If that is correct, then they were not being honest when they implicated Israel.

They certainly haven't said so. Do you have a mole in the Brotherhood feeding you inside info Keith?
No, I am persuaded by the dramatic flooding of the tunnels during talks with Hamas, and against the wishes of Hamas.
Why else would they flood those tunnels?
Linear synchronised swimming?

I am hugely entertained by your theory that Israel made an armed incursion into Gaza, then out again through the tunnels without Hamas ever finding out.
They then crashed through the Israeli border and had themselves all killed by their own comrades.

Just a tiny bit far fetched Don.
Were you being serious?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 01:01 PM

Or - from the horse's mouth - a commercial reason
http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/destroying-gaza-tunnels-seen-punitive-not-security-measure
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM

A very balanced piece from Pakistan finds the Muslim Brotherhood not Islamic enough, and pro USA.
Thanks Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM

Bertrand Russell Tribunal on War Crimes

Bertrand Russell created a body to investigate war crimes and Israel is being cited.
They are meeting periodically over the world.

Judge Richard Goldstone of the Goldstone Report makes it clear that Israel and Hamas
are in violation of the ostensible peace treaties between Israel and Palestine. He doesn't favor one side over another. They are both culpable.

The murder of Rachel Corrie

Rachel Corrie was murdered by an Israeli bulldozer and the case has been ignored by Israel and the United States, never investigated. It only amplifies what happens to peace activists who are non-violent but go against prevailing policies of the U.S. and Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM

Judge Richard Goldstone, writing in The New York Times in October 2011, said of the Russell Tribunal on Palestine that "It is not a 'tribunal.' The 'evidence' is going to be one-sided and the members of the 'jury' are critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known. In Israel, there is no apartheid. Nothing there comes close to the definition of apartheid under the 1998 Rome Statute."[22]
South African journalist and human rights activist Benjamin Pogrund, now living in Israel, described the Cape Town Session of the Russell Tribunal on Palestine as "It's theatre: the actors know their parts and the result is known before they start. Israel is to be dragged into the mud."[23]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 02:30 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 02:31 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 03:02 PM

"A very balanced piece from Pakistan finds the Muslim Brotherhood not Islamic enough"
An not in the business of defending extremist groups - that seems to be your bag - but Pakistan's statement on the tunnels appears to have been spot on, again, unlike you.
I notice that once again you have avoided the real (your own) issue.
Neither Hamas, nor the Palestinian people were ever implicated in these killings.
As nobody appears to have accused them of being involved, that roumour seems to have been started on this forum by a couple of human rights abuse apologists.
There is not even any solid evidence that the tunnels were ever used by the killers and Egypt is not using that as an excuse for closing them down.
A number of alternative culprits, including Mossad agents have been much further in the frame as suspects for the killings (as Don has suggested right at the beginning, and his latest statement is far more feasible than any put forward by yourself as Israel is by far the greatest beneficiary of the tunnels being closed.
According to information from Egypt itself, it transpires that security isn't even an issue in respect to the closures (that was put on the table ages ago and ignored by our dynamic duo.   
So the whole subject appears to have been an attempted fit-up by the O.P. and his not-very-bright mate to implicate a besieged and impoverished people in a crime in order to justify their continued persecution by a wealthy, powerful and heavily (nuclear) armed regime with an outstanding track-record of human rights abuses and terrorism.
I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THIS INFORMATION FROM - DON'T SUPPOSE WE EVER SHALL THOUGH, SO I SHALL JUST HAVE TO ASSUME THAT, LIKE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE PUT UP HERE, YOU INVENTED IT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:51 PM

I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THIS INFORMATION FROM - DON'T SUPPOSE WE EVER SHALL THOUGH, SO I SHALL JUST HAVE TO ASSUME THAT, LIKE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE PUT UP HERE, YOU INVENTED IT

I told you.
I have no information.
Egypt has declined to identify who attacked them.
All we know is that they closed the Gaza tunnels immediately, and seven months later flooded them.
Now why would they do such an unfriendly thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 01:34 AM

Reuters Feb18.
Citing security concerns for the crackdown, Cairo said some of the gunmen who killed 16 Egyptian soldiers near the Gaza border fence in August had crossed into Egypt via the tunnels, an allegation denied by Palestinians.

The move surprised and angered Hamas, had hoped for much better ties with Cairo following the election last year of Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi, a fellow Islamist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 03:25 AM

"Egypt has declined to identify who attacked them."
Then why have you and your shrinking violet friend claimed throughout this discussion that the killers were the least likely to be involved - Hamas and the Palestinian people, who have nothing whatever to gain from the closure of the tunnels - as has been pointed out already - YOU HAVE INVENTED YOUR ACCUSATIONS OUT OF THIN AIR - AS YOU HAVE THROUGHOUT ALL THESE DISCUSSIONS
"The move surprised and angered Hamas, had hoped for much better ties with Cairo following the election last year of Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi, a fellow Islamist."
Even your own unlinked cut-'n-pastes are giving the same message - Hamas and the Palestinians are the least likely to have attacked the Egyptian soldiers; the greatest beneficiaries of the closures of the tunnels are the Israelis, and attempting to ridicule the idea that Mossad carried out the attack is sheer idiocy - why should such a suggestion be far-fetched - it's not as if Israeli agents are strangers to political assassination, is it?
This is the bit you missed from the article you lifted your c & p from - and the link you omitted.
"(Reuters) - Egypt's campaign to shut down smuggling tunnels running under its border into the Gaza Strip threatens to throw thousands of Palestinians out of work in the Hamas-run enclave. The network of tunnels has been a vital lifeline for Gaza, bringing in an estimated 30 percent of all goods that reach the enclave and circumventing a blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt for more than seven years."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/18/us-palestinians-tunnels-idUSBRE91H04X20130218
You appear now to be reduced to utter gibberish - you are putting up information that totally destroys your own claims.
You have claimed throughout that Hamas was responsible for the killing YOU AND BB MADE IT ALL UP
You have not produced one single scrap of credible evidence throughout this discussion - Sabra/Shatila; toxic dumps; the treatment of ethnic minorities in Israel, the description of Israel as an Apartheid state - YOUR ENTIRE CASE HAS BEEN BASED ON THE DENIALS OF A STATE THAT HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF THESE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, AND MUCH, MUCH MORE - A WAR CRIMINAL
"I have no information."
Probably the only accurate statement you have made throughout this discussion.
It only remains to be seen how long you can drag out this farce and whether you will try to salvage something from the ashes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 04:22 AM

You have claimed throughout that Hamas was responsible for the killing
No.
I have claimed that Egypt believes that the tunnels were used.
That is why they closed them straight away, and after months of investigation flooded them.
I did not have to Google up obscure publications.
Reuters 18th Feb.
Citing security concerns for the crackdown, Cairo said some of the gunmen who killed 16 Egyptian soldiers near the Gaza border fence in August had crossed into Egypt via the tunnels.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM

Speaking to Egypt's Bawabat Al-Ahram newspaper, Ahmed Ali, a spokesman for the Egyptian army, confirmed that Egypt's armed forces aimed to damage all tunnels on the Sinai-Gaza border for security reasons.

Ali said that maintaining security in Egypt does not contradict supporting the Palestinian cause, and the flooding of the tunnels should not upset supporters of Palestine.

"Gaza has its legitimate crosspoints such as Rafah and Kerem Shalom, where it can import and export goods. Therefore, remarks about Egypt supporting the siege over Gaza need to be reconsidered," Ali said.

Despite the immediate repercussions for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza, closing the tunnels might push forward the slow Palestinian national reconciliation process between Fatah and Hamas, as they will have to form a united authority on its borders.

While Egypt's decision is understandable, the timing of it is surprising, says Gaza-based political analyst Talal Okal.


Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/02/egypt-floods-gaza-tunnels.html#ixzz2LcPukDP7

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 06:53 AM

New York Times yesterday.


The Egyptian military is resorting to a pungent new tactic to shut down the smuggling tunnels connecting Sinai and Gaza: flooding them with sewage. Along with the stink, the approach is raising new questions about relations between Egypt's new Islamist leaders and their ideological allies in Hamas who control the Gaza Strip.

"Awful," said Abu Mutair Shalouf, 35, a Palestinian smuggler on the Gaza side, watching workers haul buckets of sewage-soaked soil from the shaft of a tunnel flooded by the Egyptian military 15 days ago. "I don't know why they did this."

Concern in Cairo about the tunnels spiked last August, when 16 Egyptian soldiers died in a militant attack on a military outpost in Sinai. The Egyptian government believes the attackers came through the tunnels.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 06:56 AM

Would you describe that as "TOXIC" Jim?
This time I would too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 07:08 AM

A "toxic dump" no less.
On Hamas!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 07:39 AM

""I have taken Egypt's decision to close the tunnels in response to the incursion as sound evidence that they think the tunnels were used in the incursion.
If that is correct, then they were not being honest when they implicated Israel.""

Oh really Keith!

Are you naive enough to believe that Israeli agents, most likely Mossad, would be unable to make their way through Gaza and enter Egypt by the tunnels?

You have no more idea who was responsible for that attack than I, or anyone else, and only your blind faith in the word of the Israeli government makes you think you have.

Do us all a favour and stop making claims that neither you, nor anyone else, can prove or disprove.

Try sticking to FACTS! And try to remember that a statement doesn't necessarily become a fact simply because it came from an Israeli source.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 07:43 AM

""Just a tiny bit far fetched Don.
Were you being serious?""

Entebbe was far fetched until they did it.

You are seriously telling me that you don't believe Mossad has agents operating in the Gaza strip.

Wake up and look around mate!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:08 AM

""All we know is that they closed the Gaza tunnels immediately, and seven months later flooded them.
Now why would they do such an unfriendly thing?""

OK genius, First question! Why would Hamas attack Egyptians, just at the time when they are conducting delicate negotiations with the Egyptians? They may well be nasty, but they ain't STUPID!

Second question! Would Israel view a detente between Egypt and Palestine with equanmity, or dismay? It would destroy the Israeli blockade, and put their expansionist plans in jeopardy.

Third question! Would Israel use a covert military attack to derail such negotiations? You can bet your life savings THEY WOULD!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:20 AM

""Judge Richard Goldstone, writing in The New York Times in October 2011, said of the Russell Tribunal on Palestine that "It is not a 'tribunal.' The 'evidence' is going to be one-sided and the members of the 'jury' are critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known.

Very smart Keith, quoting the same man who made the following statement:-

""Judge Richard Goldstone of the Goldstone Report makes it clear that Israel and Hamas are in violation of the ostensible peace treaties between Israel and Palestine. He doesn't favor one side over another. They are both culpable.""

Which is what I have been saying, and you and your cronies have been denying for months past.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:30 AM

""Citing security concerns for the crackdown, Cairo said some of the gunmen who killed 16 Egyptian soldiers near the Gaza border fence in August had crossed into Egypt via the tunnels.""

SOME of the gunmen?

This just gets better! So, how did the gunmen who didn't come through the tunnel get there, if they were Hamas, or Palestinian?
The tunnels are the ONLY way out of Gaza!

That surely points more toward Hamas not being involved.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 09:32 AM

I am sure you are much better informed than the Egyptian Security Forces Don, but I still am more inclined to believe them than two blinkered and prejudiced old bigots who blame Israel for everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 09:49 AM

""I am sure you are much better informed than the Egyptian Security Forces Don, but I still am more inclined to believe them than two blinkered and prejudiced old bigots who blame Israel for everything.""

SAME OLD LIE KEITH! Just 50 minutes after I posted the following, which you ignored because it is inconvenient to have to acknowledge that I have been blaming both throughout the discussion for months.

Much easier to LIE, than to admit that you are the donkey with blinkers and a stubborn bias, eh Keith?

""Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:20 AM

""Judge Richard Goldstone of the Goldstone Report makes it clear that Israel and Hamas are in violation of the ostensible peace treaties between Israel and Palestine. He doesn't favor one side over another. They are both culpable.""

Which is what I have been saying, and you and your cronies have been denying for months past.""

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM

""prejudiced old bigots who blame Israel for everything""

Well Keith, we are old (depending on what your definition of the word is), but definitely not bigots.

You are a bigot and will soon enough be an old one as well.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 10:01 AM

"
This just gets better! So, how did the gunmen who didn't come through the tunnel get there, if they were Hamas, or Palestinian?
The tunnels are the ONLY way out of Gaza!
"


Jerusalem (CNN) -- In a highly symbolic break with previous policy, Egypt reopened its border crossing into Gaza on Saturday, opening the door for Palestinians to the outside world and raising fears among some Israelis that militant attacks will increase.
"Procedures were excellent," said Younes Ahmed, who described his travel into Egypt as the first such visit in his life. "I hope there will be peace between our people and I want to thank the Egyptian people and the Egyptian government ... we always hope for easier ways for Palestinians because our people suffered enough."
Crossing officials said more than 600 Palestinians passed Saturday through the Rafah border, which had been subject to frequent closures by Egypt after Hamas, an Islamic militant group, took control of Gaza in June 2007.
The closure of the border had been part of an embargo policy by Egypt and Israel aimed at cutting off Hamas, though it simultaneously created an economic hardship in Gaza by limiting shipments of goods in and out of the country.
Egypt opted to reopen the border to offer relief to the people of Gaza, said Ambassador Menha Bakhoum of the country's foreign ministry.
"Today, we are facing a new stage, a new stage were this blockade is defeated," said a Hamas representative at the crossing. "This step is to support the resistance of the Palestinian people to face the Zionist blockade."
"This is a Palestinian-Egyptian frontier and it's not the business of the invaders," said Salam Baraka, general director of border police. "This border does not submit but to the Egyptian-Palestinian rule."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 03:40 PM

Would you describe that as "TOXIC" Jim?
Yes I most certainly would - what's your point.
Surely you're not still suggesting that the behaviour of a fundamentalist military government is an excuse for human rights abuses comparable to ethnic cleansing by the Israelis
Jim Carroll

Comparable examples - I don't think so.
From the Economist
THE Bedouin of Israel are not a happy lot. Once nomadic lords, Binyamin Netanyahu's government plans to pen tens of thousands of them into cities. This may be Israel's biggest removal of Arabs from the land since the 1948 war.
In the Israeli-occupied West Bank, soldiers knock down their shacks with abandon. Plans are afoot to transfer some 2,000 to the edge of a rubbish dump to make way for more Jewish settlers east of Jerusalem. To cap it all, religious Jews recently torched a mosque in Tuba, a Bedouin town in the north-east of Israel.
Traditionally split into often feuding clans, the nomads have been easy for Israel to divide, conquer, shift and, at least in the Israeli state's early days, expel. Whole tribes of Bedouin once roamed from Libya to Iraq. But concrete walls and a regime of permits have splintered them, reducing contact, commerce and marriage between Israel's 200,000 Bedouin, the West Bank's 40,000 and millions beyond, in Gaza, Jordan, Sinai and the Arabian peninsular.
Forced first into narrow enclaves and then into towns, they have generally downsized from camels to goats. Many have abandoned their herds entirely. The West Bank's last surviving herders are hemmed in by Israeli military bases, by-pass roads and Jewish settlements. Israeli soldiers confiscate flocks that stray. The settlers see them as trespassers and bar access to springs.
Life in Israel proper is little better. Nearly half the Negev's Bedouin live in villages often predating the state but officially unrecognised and so denied state support. There are no paved roads, public transport, electricity or water. ALONGSIDE WADI NAAM, A DUSTY BEDOUIN CAMP OF 4,000 PEOPLE, A TOXIC WASTE PLANT PUFFS AWAY.
www.economist.com/node/21536645

And this
Israel's poisonous aerial spraying of Negev crops illegal, endangers health of Bedouin villagers
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385

And this
From Jews for Justice
Jewish settlers spray toxic substance, kill herd of sheep
By Palestinian Information Center
August 13, 2012
AL-KHALIL– Jewish settlers sprayed toxic substance in Palestinian grazing fields near the town of Yatta, southern al-Khalil, causing the death of a herd of sheep.
The coordinator of the popular committees against the wall and settlement in Yatta, Ratib Al-Jabour, asserted that the herd of sheep, which belonged to Jihad Noajah, had died after grazing in wild herbs, which were sprayed with toxic substances by settlers from Susiya settlement to the southeast of Yatta.
Meanwhile, the head of Wadi al-Maleh village council, Aref Daraghmeh, stated that the Israeli occupation authorities (IOA) have ordered Palestinian Bedouins in Wadi al-Maleh in the Jordan Valley to pay excessive fines of up to 15 thousand shekels to retrieve their cattle confiscated a few days ago.
He added that the residents lost numbers of their cows which died during the confiscation raid while others were still held by the IOA even after paying the fines.

And this

The Negev comprises 60 percent of Israel's land, explained the University of Vermont graduate, but only 2.5 percent of it has been relegated to the Bedouins, who once grazed their animals throughout the Negev and Sinai Deserts, as well as Jordan. The Negev's estimated 190,000 Bedouins (27 percent of the region's population) are forced to live within a small area called the siyag ("fence"쳌)—a confined space which also contains Israel's infamous Dimona nuclear plant and reactors, 19 agro- and petrochemical factories, a toxic waste incinerator, an electric power plant, a prison, quarries, industrial and military zones and a military airport.
http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/313-washington-report-archives-2006-2010/september-october-2007/9446-jewish-american-activist-champions-cause-of-israels-disenfranchised-bedouin.html

And remembering this is about the excellent treatment meted out to the Bedouins by Israel
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 2012
Extreme Israeli violence in recognized Bedouin village of Bir Hadaj - Report from Negev Coexistence Forum
In the early morning hours of November 12, hundreds of Israeli police stormed the recognized Bedouin village of Bir Hadaj. The police officers were accompanied by representatives of the Israeli Ministry of Interior, who attempted to distribute home demolition orders to village residents.http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 04:07 PM

In a highly symbolic break with previous policy, Egypt reopened its border crossing into Gaza on Saturday,

And about time, too, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:12 PM

Another selective piece of out of context argument from BB.

Last August, when the alleged Palestinian attack happened, the only way out of Gaza was through one of the tunnels.

The Egyptians have reported that SOME of the militants came through the tunnels, so it follows that the rest must have come from somewhere other than Gaza.

At least some of them cannot have been Hamas or Palestinian since Israel has the rest of the border blockaded.

Mossad agents from Gaza (and don't try to say there aren't any) meeting up with Mossad agents from outside Gaza?

Israel, and more specifically Mossad has agents in many countries, as has the USA and more specifically the CIA.

Again I say, who has the most to gain from preventing a link up between Muslim Palestine and Muslim Egypt, and the most to lose if such a link opens the Egyptian border to free movement from and to Gaza?

I don't know how anybody would doubt the possibility, given the fact that they bombed a convoy on Syrian territory without so much as a by-your-leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:18 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 03:06 AM

Don, we are all old but not all bigots.
Only extreme prejudice could lead anyone to blame Israel for the incursion.
Israel was the intended target and its only role was to kill them all when the suicide attack was launched through its border.

Jim, Electronic Intifada and Palestine Information Centre are just propaganda sites, for the gullible and the bigot.
It is all lies Jim.

That Egyptian publication you linked to suggested that Egypt closed the tunnels to screw the poor persecuted Sinai Bedouins even harder.
They make money from the tunnels.http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/destroying-gaza-tunnels-seen-punitive-not-security-measure
The Bedouin hate Egypt for its treatment of them and were probably involved in the killings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 04:06 AM

"It is all lies Jim"
Throughout this thread you have dismissed solid evidence of Israeli atrocities, you have defended or ignored human rights abuses and war crimes, denied documented and fully accredited massacres, have described the moving of whole communities onto poisoned land, the deliberate use of toxins on crops and livestock....
Disgustingly, you have dismissed the Israeli soldiers who were part of and witnessed the massacres at Sabra and Shatila, as liars.
Amnesty, the UN, Jews for Peace and other liberal groups and individuals, Rabbis, journalists..... all "anti-Semites"
All this is (apparently) in support of the systematic slaughter and persecution of ordinary civilians, men, women and children, young and old – all non combatants.
You have consistently lied about your own statements, claiming not to have made them, while they are still in full view without having to leave this thread.
You have also lied about following links that you have been given - you were caught red-handed with this one.
All this you have done while at the same time defending your earlier stance that Anti Semites in the upper echelons of the British establishment pouring out their rabid Anti Jewish filth at the time when Nazi Germany was at the peak of its power and set to invade Britain, were "as harmless as the theme song from Dad's Army".
Your declared support for Israel and the Jewish people is as false as your crocodile tears for the Syrian people.
YOU STILL HAVE NOT PRODUCED ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO BACK UP ANY OF YOUR ARGUMENTS - NOT ONE.
YOU APPEAR TO TREATING ALL THIS AS AN EXTREMELY SICK GAME DESIGNED SOLELY TO DRAW ATTENTION TO YOURSELF
You really have surpassed your 'all male Pakistanis are cultural degenerates' on this one.
The great advantage of these two particular threads, like your 'Pakistani perverts' arguments, is that you have presented a picture of yourself as one sick individual who is prepared to use this forum to spread his sickness - nobody in their right mind could possibly take your psychopathic rantings seriously again.
The picture you have painted of yourself will be available to us for future use for as long as this forum exists - thanks for that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 05:01 AM

Jim.
'all male Pakistanis are cultural degenerates' 'Pakistani perverts'

I never have and never woulod say such ridiculous things.
Putting them in quotes is lying.
It is what you always do when you are losing an argument.

Electronic Intifada is about as far from "solid evidence" as it is possible to get.
Only a complete fool or a bigot blinded by prejudice would treat it as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 05:40 AM

Yeah, yeah - we know all about that Keith - you've lied about that interminably.
Losing what argument - you haven't put one up - just denial.
Though I must admit that the mountain of support you are getting for your obscene views might throw some doubt on this.
And relying on one of many dozens of pieces of evidence you have had put before you (after your sole piece of "evidence" comesd from a self declared Israeli apologist site) only serves to underline your attempts to debunk all that has been given to you
Game, set and match I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 06:02 AM

Oh - and my apologies - your description of "all male British Pakistanis" as having "cultural implants" whic incline them to having sex with underage girls - unarguably presents them as being 'perverted cultural degenerates' - slip of the finger - often happens, as you have pointed out.
Thanks for the opportunity to present you with your extreme racist statement again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM

No-one is interested in your attempts to slander me.
You always do it when you are losing an argument.
Personal attack.
It is what you do.

Egypt acted against the tunnels because the attack came from Gaza.
The Israeli airstrike was justified and no significant nation or UN has "condemned" them.
The weapons were destined for Hezbollah who are now murdering Syrian people for Assad.
To demonize Israel you have to rake up an event from over thirty years ago that was committed against Arabs by Arabs, and falsely claim the Bedouin in Israel are persecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 08:35 AM

Proof?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 08:43 AM

Proof.
Egypt says so.
They should know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM

""Only extreme prejudice could lead anyone to blame Israel for the incursion.
Israel was the intended target and its only role was to kill them all when the suicide attack was launched through its border.""

Israel was the intended target?

I take it that the blockade has meant that there are no compasses in Gaza? they kind of lost their sense of direction if they attacked Egypt instead of Israel.

""That Egyptian publication you linked to suggested that Egypt closed the tunnels to screw the poor persecuted Sinai Bedouins even harder.
They make money from the tunnels.http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/destroying-gaza-tunnels-seen-punitive-not-security-measure
The Bedouin hate Egypt for its treatment of them and were probably involved in the killings.""

Or maybe the Bedouins were entirely responsible. That's the whole point Keith. There are several possibilities, and I don't pretend to know who actually did the deed and you certainly cannot claim to know either.

You, however, not knowing are bound and determined to exclude Israel alone from any involvement.

You have ignored my entirely credible analysis of the situation with respect to WHO has most to gain, because responding would mean that you would have to refute it logically, which you cannot do.

If all other suspects were eliminated and Israelis were caught red handed, you would blame pixies rather than admit it.

The most intransigent bigot here remains your good self.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 03:14 PM

""The weapons were destined for Hezbollah who are now murdering Syrian people for Assad.""

A claim for which we have no other evidence than the word of the government which ordered the incursion.

Really handy being your own judge and jury. Nobody can ever find you guilty.

A pity that so much of what they say is proven lies by their own citizens and soldiers.

""To demonize Israel you have to rake up an event from over thirty years ago that was committed against Arabs by Arabs, and falsely claim the Bedouin in Israel are persecuted.""

1.) A grossly over simplified statement which attempts to cover up the FACT that the Israelis brought those Arabs in and watched them slaughter unarmed civilians including children, aand to cover up the fact that those particular Arabs were deadly enemies of the Muslims, a fact which was well known to Israel, and which destroys your Arabs killing Arabs justification.

2.) We have produced massive amounts of documentary evidence of what is being done to the Israeli Bedouin, which you have ignored, responding only with "I don't believe it", which absolutely fails to qualify as either evidence or argument.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 04:23 PM

I take it that the blockade has meant that there are no compasses in Gaza? they kind of lost their sense of direction if they attacked Egypt instead of Israel.
No Don.
The plan was to use captured Egyptian armoured vehicles to launch an attack into Israel.
They probably did not expect the Egyptian soldiers to resist.
By the end of that fight the IDF were ready for them.

A claim for which we have no other evidence than the word of the government which ordered the incursion.

Your prejudice and bigotry makes you just "know" it is a lie.
I believe it.
So does the whole world except you Don.
Or, can you find one other source or person in the all creation who shares your ridiculous blindness to reality?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:21 AM

Abdulla, you do your daughter a disservice if you tell her that lovers of a music will always share the same views and philosophies.

We have produced massive amounts of documentary evidence of what is being done to the Israeli Bedouin, which you have ignored, responding only with "I don't believe it",
Not true Don.
I produced testimony from a patriotic and successful Bedouin Israeli and showed that he was not unusual in that.
Anyone who builds insanitary shacks without permission will have them removed.
Not just Bedouin, and not only in Israel.
The same would happen in the most progressive countries, and in ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:22 AM

And here's an end to the toxic question - see source of quota
Jim Carroll

Information gathered by Oxfam from Bedouin families in the West Bank last year suggested that selling animals, mostly sheep, can earn a herder as much as £21,000 in a year. The problem is that as their grazing land has diminished, about half of this income is now spent on animal feed. Add to that the costs of trucking in water and paying for fuel for electricity generators, or investing in solar panels, and there is very little cash left over.
Mark Regev, a spokesman for the Israeli prime minister, says there is understanding between the government and the Bedouins that the situation is untenable. He insists, contrary to what is laid out in the proposed legislation, the Negev herders will be offered a choice to move to a town or rural village.
"The pockets of poverty and neglect in Bedouin communities must end. One [Negev] village is right next to a terrible, polluted dump. No one should be living next to a toxic dump, " Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

Yes Jim.
That village IS near a toxic dump.
It is one of the unrecognised settlements that Israel wants to remove.

"There is no basis in reality to the recently made claim that we supposedly want to move 70,000 Bedouin to existing towns," said Begin this week. "Our inclination is to work toward a range of Bedouin settlements. The Bedouin will be left where they are to the extent possible.

"At the same time," he added, "we cannot allow one house per hilltop, because this is economically unsustainable. This means construction is going to have to be more dense." According to Begin, a small part of the Bedouin population will have to move from locations where it is claimed villages cannot exist, partly because of environmental concerns. "There is no justification for Bedouin children growing up next to the airstrips of the Nevatim airbase. A settlement such as Wadi al-Na'am, located in an environmentally hazardous area near military industries and the Ramat Hovav industrial zone, cannot be sustained."

Begin agreed there is justification in recognizing some of the settlements as farming villages, but said there is potential for more urban forms of development. He mentioned the great demand for apartments in the Bedouin city of Rahat.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

The reality
Jim Casrroll
Wadi al-Na'am is an unrecognized village in the Negev Desert in Southern Israel. The nearest official settlement is Beersheba. The village is home to about 5,000 Bedouin who live mainly in tents and tin shacks less than 500 metres away from a toxic waste dump, largely surrounded by the Ramat Hovav industrial zone and military areas including anIsrael Defense Forces live-fire range. Because the village is unrecognized, it is ineligible for basic services and subject to periodic house demolitions, even though the inhabitants hold Israeli citizenship.[1][2]

State treatment of unrecognized villages
Israeli government uses different means in order to attract the Bedouin into the planned settlements. It offers land lots at very attractive prices on the one hand,[55] and as an extreme measure - following the court order and all the legal procedure - demolishes houses built illegally on state lands and in rare cases even sprays toxic pesticides onto crops[56]planted in unappropriate places. This is done in order to implement law and order in the Negev, as well as to build new settlements there, both for Jews and for the Bedouin, and improve life conditions of the Bedouin by moving them to townships with a developed infrastructure.

Uprooting Weeds, by Devorah Brous
On Thursday, March 11th, 2004, Bedouin fields were sprayed with Monsanto's toxic Roundup for the seventh time in 2 years as the Israel Lands Authority sent a fleet of planes to 'redeem' land near Mitzpe Ramon, in Abde and in Qatamat, unrecognized villages in the Southern Negev. In such cases, the State has rendered Bedouin cultivation of unused desert expanse, illegal. Twice in February, fruit trees (olives and dates) were uprooted from Bedouin villages, each time some 50 trees. Below please find an article analyzing this policy of uprooting, and destroying food crops. Bustan is collecting any information on crop-spraying operations around the world as a tactic to gain state control over lands.

Jewish settlers spray toxic substance, kill herd of sheep
By Palestinian Information Center
August 13, 2012
AL-KHALIL– Jewish settlers sprayed toxic substance in Palestinian grazing fields near the town of Yatta, southern al-Khalil, causing the death of a herd of sheep.
The coordinator of the popular committees against the wall and settlement in Yatta, Ratib Al-Jabour, asserted that the herd of sheep, which belonged to Jihad Noajah, had died after grazing in wild herbs, which were sprayed with toxic substances by settlers from Susiya settlement to the southeast of Yatta.
Meanwhile, the head of Wadi al-Maleh village council, Aref Daraghmeh, stated that the Israeli occupation authorities (IOA) have ordered Palestinian Bedouins in Wadi al-Maleh in the Jordan Valley to pay excessive fines of up to 15 thousand shekels to retrieve their cattle confiscated a few days ago.
He added that the residents lost numbers of their cows which died during the confiscation raid while others were still held by the IOA even after paying the fines.

The story of the Bedouin tribesmen in the unrecognized village of wadi al-Na'am southern Israel desert.
Wadi al-Na'am is an unrecognized Bedouin village located in the Negev Desert in Southern Israel. The village is home to about 8,000 Bedouins. Since the Bedouins never registered their holdings on paper, their villages were considered illegal and termed "unrecognized". The villagers are deprived of basic services such as electricity, running water, sewage system and medical services. As the villagers cannot build homes legally, the Israeli government uses demolition orders against their homes.
Israel's hazardous industrial park and waste disposal facility, Ramat Hovav, is only 1 km away from Wadi al-Na'am. Ramat Hovav currently encompasses 14 hazardous agro and petro-chemical factories and a toxic waste incinerator. The village is also encircled by a large facility of the national electric company as well as military areas including live-fire range.
An epidemiological survey, which was released by the Israeli Ministry of Health in 2004, found higher rates of prenatal deaths, respiratory problems and birth defects among the Bedouins in the Negev. Wadi el Na'am inhabitants have been suffering from high rates of cancer, asthma and miscarriages.

Respiratory morbidity in hospitalized Bedouins residing near an industrial park.
Kordysh E, Karakis I, Belmaker I, Vardi H, Bolotin A, Sarov B.
Source
Department of Epidemiology and Health Systems Evaluation, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Beer-Sheva, Israel.
Abstract
The residents' concern about exposure to a chemical industrial park (IP), which includes the national toxic industrial waste site, prompted the authors to initiate this ecological study on the association between residing near the IP and being hospitalized for respiratory ailments in the local Bedouin population. The population was stratified by sex, age, and locality type (permanent settlements and traditional tribal settlements). The distance and wind direction from the IP were used as exposure indicators. Hospitalization data were obtained from the regional medical center. Increased hospitalization rates for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and all respiratory diseases were found to be associated with residential proximity to the IP. Attributable risk for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease was 34.2% in male members of the traditional tribal settlements and 49.3% in female members of the permanent settlements.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:54 AM

The logic
Jim Carroll

ISRAELI EFFORT TO REMOVE BEDOUINS FROM EAST JERUSALEM IS PART OF THE PLAN TO MAKE TWO STATES IMPOSSIBLE
by Zach Resnick on October 25, 2011 22
The Israeli Civil Administration (ICA), which is in charge of all civil operations in the West Bank (though in practice routinely blurs the line between civil and military), "…is committed to removing all Bedouins from the West Bank", and plan to start with the Jerusalem periphery. Forced deportation, the practice of forcibly removing civilians from their homes, is an example of a war crime (4th Geneva Convention, Article 49).
The roughly 2,300 people of the Bedouin community that the ICA is targeting reside in 20 communities in the hills to the east of Jerusalem, in the E1 settlement bloc. More than 80% of them are 1948 refugees. Over two-thirds are children. The communities have all lost access to land due to settlement expansion, most have demolition orders pending against their homes, none have access to the electricity network, and only half are connected to the water network. Despite receiving humanitarian assistance, 55% of Bedouin/herding communities in Area C of the West Bank are "food insecure"; the U.N. defines food security as, "when all people, at all times, have physical and economic access to sufficient, safe and nutritious food to meet their dietary needs and food preferences for an active and healthy life." Over 200 families were re-located from the area in the 1990s, some by force. Of these, more than 85% report they had to abandon their traditional livelihoods. More than 500,000 Israeli civilians live in Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including in East Jerusalem, built in contravention of international law (4th Geneva Convention, Article 49). In this year alone, at least 755 Palestinians had been forcibly displaced due to demolitions, and 127 due to settler violence – some 40% of these were Bedouin.
The relocation deal proposed to the roughly 20 Bedouin small communities that live in the Jerusalem periphery, is to move inside a major municipal garbage dump (also see thisPDF). This is a 'settlement', not of two parties negotiating (relocation agreement), but of the ICA giving a compensation package. This is akin to saying, "sorry we are removing you again (first time was in 1948) from your homes and traditional lifestyle, but take this money and we'll call it even?" The ICA has argued that this is a step up from their current lifestyle, mainly because the ICA is essentially bribing them by building up their new infrastructure and giving them money; they also maintain that urbanization is superior to their traditional herding lifestyle. The current Bedouin way of life is only in a humanitarian and cultural crisis due to Israeli colonization and restrictions over their lives. The new 'deal' the ICA is proposing may not even meet basic standards of living and a minimum standard of cultural perseverance, as enshrined in international law and previous bilateral agreements on the part of the Israeli government.
There is an ethical dilemma for NGOs and those generally in the human rights world here. When a case of deportation or something similar gets high media visibility, it makes it more likely that the Israeli government will punish the occupied population. Increased humanitarian support always results in more demolition orders and a furthering of the elaborate matrix of control. Sometimes the soundest advice for Palestinian communities is to 'settle' with the Israeli government, and in turn get maybe slightly more land and cash in their new package. The ICA and the Israeli government have long understood the colonial principle of 'divide and conquer' by cutting deals with small individual communities and coaxing them not to resist colonization.
The ICA strategy is to make life as terrible as possible for the Palestinians where they are now, while making the land where they want the population to be moved to as desirable as possible so they 'choose' to move. The ICA is planning to make this forced relocation happen in 2-3 months, so it's very important that the story of the Bedouin community gets heard in the international community soon. It's only a matter of time before the ICA tries to forcibly remove the Bedouins elsewhere in the West Bank. The Israeli government wants to urbanize a traditionally rural population to make it easier to judaize the West Bank, and to more easily control the Palestinians. It makes strategic sense that they are trying to remove those in the E1 settlement bloc first, because full colonization of that area as planned, would effectively divide the West Bank into two parts, eliminating any illusion of territorial contiguity that was once there. It unarguably destroys the possibility of any two state solution that isn't legitimized apartheid.

Zach Resnick is living for a year in Israel/Palestine and blogging at Thoughts from Jerusalem. He recently graduated high school and is spending a year before Oberlin College interning for the Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions, studying jazz music at Shtriker Conservatory, and taking in life in Israel/Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:54 AM

Oh Jim!
You ACCIDENTLY" omitted the end of Regev's sentence.
Here it is.
"No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:59 AM

Jim, notice the word "unrecognised" again.
The reality
Jim Casrroll
Wadi al-Na'am is an unrecognized village in the Negev Desert in Southern Israel. The nearest official settlement is Beersheba. The village is home to about 5,000 Bedouin who live mainly in tents and tin shacks less than 500 metres away from a toxic waste dump,

This is what Israel is trying to change!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM

Zac Resnick?!

You can not expect us to believe that propagandist.
Do not be so gullible Jim.

He wrote all that shite two years ago.
The Bedouin are all still there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 09:40 AM

"You ACCIDENTLY" omitted the end of Regev's sentence."
I put the whole quote up earlier and you rejected it as Antisemitic - which was the point of my putting it up again.
You have the entire quote and a dozen more above and you have rejected them ALL AS ANTISEMITIC
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 10:58 AM

YOU CANNOT DISMISS OVER 2 DOZEN ARTICLES ON THE DELIBERATE POLICY OF THE ISRAELI REGIME ATTEMPTING TO DRIVE OT THE BEDOUINS BY USING TOXIC MATERIALS ON THE BASIS OF ONE ARTICLE - THE CASE FOR THEIR HAVING DONE IT HAS BEEN PROVED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
If you ever again accuse me of sinking to your level by doctoring texts I shall search out every dishonest stunt you have pulled, every doctored text you have put forward, every racist statement you have ever made, every deliberate lie you have told, - starting with your faking your identity to post support for your own arguments.Nobody on this forum behaves like you; you manage to fuck it up for every genuine member here, The fact that this doesn't bother you makes you the slimeball that you are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM

The only case of a toxic waste dump is of Israel wanting to move the Bedouin AWAY from it, the exact opposite of what you have been falsely claiming.

Of course no-one can be allowed to build and farm just anywhere without permission, not just Bedouin and not just in Israel.

Israeli government uses different means in order to attract the Bedouin into the planned settlements. It offers land lots at very attractive prices on the one hand,[55] and as an extreme measure - following the court order and all the legal procedure - demolishes houses built illegally on state lands and in rare cases even sprays toxic pesticides onto crops[56] planted in unappropriate places. This is done in order to implement law and order in the Negev, as well as to build new settlements there, both for Jews and for the Bedouin, and improve life conditions of the Bedouin by moving them to townships with a developed infrastructure.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 12:38 PM

Of course no-one can be allowed to build and farm just anywhere without permission

That doesn't seem to apply in the case of "settlements" in the occupied territories.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 01:09 PM

That doesn't seem to apply in the case of "settlements" in the occupied territories.

Yes it does.
JERUSALEM, Feb. 13 — Dozens of soldiers and members of the Israeli civil administration demolished on Wednesday six homes in an outpost located in the West Bank, military sources confirmed to Xinhua.

In addition, four families residing in Ma'ale Rechavam, an outpost located at the Gush Etzion settlement bloc not far from Jerusalem, were evacuated from their houses.

All roads leading to the outpost were blocked to prevent settlers and right-wing activists from returning to the spot.

There are about 30 settler families living in the outpost, and the structures that were demolished on Wednesday were built in the past year, the Walla news website reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM

Sporadically that happens. By no means consistently. And of course none of the "settlements" had the "permission" of the local people, and all were in breach of international law and of Israel's legal obligations.
........
There were those who tried to justify and excuse the actions of the South African government under Apartheid, and did so quite sincerely.

It's a sad world we live in where whole populations of innocent people get trapped in a situation not of their making which forces them to consent to terrible things being done in their name. .Outasiders should tread carefully and be careful of doing the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 07:53 PM

""The plan was to use captured Egyptian armoured vehicles to launch an attack into Israel.
They probably did not expect the Egyptian soldiers to resist.
By the end of that fight the IDF were ready for them.""

You must have a mole in Hamas Keith.

They deny any part in the event, yet you "know" not only that they are guilty, but the reason for their actions and the details of the plan.

You are really beyond reason, in tinfoil hat territory, and nothing, absolutely NOTHING that you say can be believed anymore.

You certainly work on the basis that if you are going to tell a lie you should tell a big one.

The only problem is that it has to be just a little short of totally incredible.

You are becoming counter productive, as your nonsense is making the Israelis look not only nasty, but silly as well.

Don T..

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:02 PM

""I produced testimony from a patriotic and successful Bedouin Israeli and showed that he was not unusual in that.""

That is a really low trick. You produce one Bedouin "Uncle Tom", who is living the good life under the wing of the Israeli propaganda machine, and call it evidence, while we produce accounts from numbers of Bedouins living next to Jerusalem's detritus, or in hovels without sanitation, power, roads and medical treatment and three miles from a single water tap, and you deny them.

You are a bigot!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:16 PM

""Of course no-one can be allowed to build and farm just anywhere without permission, not just Bedouin and not just in Israel.""

I agree with that Keith! Israel certainly should NOT have been allowed to build and develop the land which the Negev Bedouins had been farming for five and a half centuries before Israel existed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 02:59 AM

You must have a mole in Hamas Keith.
They deny any part in the event, yet you "know" not only that they are guilty, but the reason for their actions and the details of the plan.

It is Egypt who "knows".
The heavily armed attackers appeared, as if by magic, on the Egyptian side of the Gazan border.
The soldiers who fought them accused Hamas.
That was made clear at the funerals.
Egypt immediately closed the tunnels.
After lengthy investigation, instead of reopening the tunnels, they destroyed them by flooding.
To emphasise their contempt and disgust, they used raw sewage, literally shitting on them.

We all except you know the plan because it was followed through.
You did not even know that they launched an attack into Israel and ridiculed me for reporting the fact!
"No compasses"

You produce one Bedouin "Uncle Tom", who is living the good life under the wing of the Israeli propaganda machine

Hardly an Uncle Tom figure Don.
He rose to high rank in the army and became a diplomat.
And not just one.
Large numbers of Bedouin join the army, swearing their oath of allegiance to Israel on the Koran.
The most decorated Israeli soldier is a Bedouin.
There are elite fighting units composed entirely of Bedouin.

Despite all the propaganda, have you ever heard of a Bedouin demonstration against Israel.
Palestinian ones are a commonplace.

No lies from me Don, and no bigotry.
Your prejudice prevents you from accepting obvious truths.
The attackers used the tunnels.
The convoy was carrying weapons to Hezbollah.
You are indeed a deeply prejudiced bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 04:03 AM

"It is Egypt who "knows"."
Yes they certainly do.
From the Egyptian Independent - an article headed ,"DESTROYING GAZA TUNNELS SEEN AS A PUNITIVE, NOT SECURITY MEASURE"
http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/destroying-gaza-tunnels-seen-punitive-not-security-measure
You have yet to provide a single link to your claims or a single piece of evidence to back up your statements.
You continue to deny, totally without evidence, the facts that others have put up. You have certainly proved and all but admitted that you don't read what you are given - all in the defence of war crimes, past, present and potential.
You continue to defend the state fascism of putting the wishes of the government above the interests of the people by moving thousands of men, women and children onto poisoned land to make way for settlers.
You continue to claim that proven to be (by Israel itself) poisoned land is not "toxic".
You have totally ignored the fact that moving Bedouins onto this poisoned land would be a "war crime" - that is how toxic the land is.
You continue to defend past and continuing slaughter of civilians, ignoring or denying documented and accredited evidence by eye witnesses, Jews and non-Jews, soldiers, Rabbis, nurses attending the victims..... calling them liars and anti Semites.
Even the Israelis deserve a better defence than your fumbling bigoted rantings.
No lies from me Don, and no bigotry. Your prejudice prevents you from accepting obvious truths.
You have turned these threads into a personal display of your own lying and your own bigotry - once again.
All this, and you have proven your own antisemitism by shrugging off real, rabid and extremely dangerous (at the time), antisemitism as the harmless rantings of eccentrics.
You even managed to insult the British people in all this by describing the attacks on British fascists as "anti-British", implying that antisemitism was acceptable as long as it came from the upper echelons of British society.
If you have any evidence of any of this, please produce it - you have refused to do so up to now.
Your arguments are an insult the victims of decades of mass murder and persecution, to Israelis with a conscience who have had the courage st speak out against their government, to common sense, and to the members of this forum who have enough compassion to take the time and effort to hand you evidence which you either don't bother to read or to disprove with evidence of your own.
You are totally alone in all this - nobody has attempted to justify what you have, even Bruce has agreed that these are acts of terrorism, claiming that they are justified as "self defence" and it is noticeable that your 'good fairy' has wisely steered clear of your display of extreme inhumanity, bigotry and dishonesty.
Your 'arguments' here have now become the ravings of a madman - they were little more than that at the beginning.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 04:11 AM

Jim, whatever your obscure Egyptian magazine says, the Egyptian government and security forces state that the attackers used the tunnels and state that as the reason for the closure and flooding.

Why would they lie?
In what way are you and Don better informed?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 04:42 AM

'Your 'arguments' here have now become the ravings of a madman'

I dunno. I don't see Keith using red print and large capitals. We can both hear and read, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 04:55 AM

You continue to claim that proven to be (by Israel itself) poisoned land is not "toxic".
You have totally ignored the fact that moving Bedouins onto this poisoned land would be a "war crime" - that is how toxic the land is.

You cling to a discredited lie.
The only poisoned, toxic land is the industrial site that Israel wants to move the Bedouin AWAY from.
It is an unauthorised settlement.
That was shown in your own link.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 06:53 AM

"Jim, whatever your obscure Egyptian magazine says....."
"Egypt Independent is the sister English-language publication of Al-Masry Al-Youm daily, the country's flagship independent paper"
You have been given the thinking of the Egyptian MILITARY government's thinking on this matter – economics and appeasement.
"You cling to a discredited lie."
Discredited by whom – you have produced nothing on the matter other than your own denial
Facts – both generally scientifically recognised and directly pertaining to this site:
It has been described as subject to war crimes charges to forcibly move thousands of people there – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
The land will remain poisoned for years, even decades after it ceases its present use (official report) – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
The gasses on the site will become toxic when brought into contact with water (official analysis) – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
Anybody occupying this land will almost certainly have to dig wells to provide water, this will be water from polluted land which will immediately become toxic - – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
The Bedouins are herders who feed themselves and make a living from animals – these animals will be grazed and watered from polluted land – the water will be toxic as it will have to be drawn from polluted land - – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
Even in the unlikely case of the Israelis supplying water, it will be flowing over polluted lands, therefore it will be toxic – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
The Israelis have put forward no plans for preparing tha land for occupation – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
Children playing in the area will be in the proximity of polluted land and be likely to be poisoned from rotting rubbish, even if it is buried – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
Occupants of the area will be using forms of heating and cooking which, when coming into contact with methane, are likely to have a toxic effect and are also (according to the Israeli health department) are subject to explosion and fire – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
THEREFORE THIS SITE BY ITS VERY NATURE, IS TOXIC – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
"The only poisoned, toxic land is the industrial site that Israel wants to move the Bedouin AWAY from."
This site is one of many in the vicinity of toxic materials. The Israelis have known about them for years, in some cases decades, and still have done nothing to change that situation – on the contrary, they have deliberately sprayed Bedoin sites with toxic chemicals in order to clear them for settlements - if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
You still fail to provide one single scrap of documented evidence – LINKS PLEASE

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 07:07 AM

PS If you are going to continue to claim that the Israelis intend to carry out any (MAJOR) work to make this site habitable to a people they have deliberately used toxic chemicals on in the past, please provide that information - you have not done so so far
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 07:49 AM

Sorry, Don, You are incorrect.

"Last August, when the alleged Palestinian attack happened, the only way out of Gaza was through one of the tunnels.

The Egyptians have reported that SOME of the militants came through the tunnels, so it follows that the rest must have come from somewhere other than Gaza.

At least some of them cannot have been Hamas or Palestinian since Israel has the rest of the border blockaded."





And my earlier post was also from 2011....





"Egypt Gaza Border Reopened Permanently

IBRAHIM BARZAK   05/28/11 05:14 PM ET   
Egypt , Gaza , Israeli-Palestinian Conflict , Rafah Border Crossing , Egypt Gaza Border , Rafah , World News

RAFAH, Gaza Strip — Egypt lifted a 4-year-old blockade of the Gaza Strip on Saturday, greatly easing travel restrictions on the 1.5 million residents of the Palestinian territory in a move that bolstered the Hamas government while dealing a setback to Israel's attempts to isolate the militant group.

The sense of relief was palpable as buses piled high with luggage crossed the Rafah border terminal and hundreds of people traveled abroad for overdue medical appointments, business dealings and family affairs. In Israel, fears were heightened that militants and weapons will soon pour into the territory."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/28/egypt-gaza-border-reopened_n_868390.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

So, Don,

I have shown that as of MAY 2011 the border to Egypt was open- If you wish to continue in your claims of "Not everybody there was Hamas because they could not have gotten over the border" YOU need to show when it was re-closed and why.

Otherwise, your argument has no validity, except to a bigot who does not accept factual evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM

A bit more
Jim Carroll
"POWERLESS" BEDOUIN VILLAGE STILL SEEKING HEALTH CARE
BY AM JOHAL
"Israel's Negev desert is facing a public health crisis. After much public pressure, in June
2004, the Ministry of Health revealed the findings of its epidemiological study - there are
65% higher rates of cancer and mortality for those living within a 20km radius of the
Ramat Hovav Industrial Zone. Some 350,000 people live within this danger zone,
including the residents of Beer Sheva. The Bedouin village of Wadi el Na'am is located
500m from Ramat Hovav - which encompasses 19 hazardous agro and petro-chemical
factories, and a toxic waste incinerator. The site has ironically won state awards for
environmental stewardship for four years in a row. In all the paradoxes of Israel, this one
defies expectations. A few years ago, even the IDF vacated the Manos military camp, 2
km to the north of the factories after soldiers became ill, and complained about a fierce
stench from the site."
http://www.caiaweb.org/old-site/files/johal-negev.pdf

"TUESDAY, AUGUST 10, 2010
Uprooting Weeds, by Devorah Brous
On Thursday, March 11th, 2004, Bedouin fields were sprayed with Monsanto's toxic Roundup for the seventh time in 2 years as the Israel Lands Authority sent a fleet of planes to 'redeem' land near Mitzpe Ramon, in Abde and in Qatamat, unrecognized villages in the Southern Negev. In such cases, the State has rendered Bedouin cultivation of unused desert expanse, illegal. Twice in February, fruit trees (olives and dates) were uprooted from Bedouin villages, each time some 50 trees. Below please find an article analyzing this policy of uprooting, and destroying food crops. Bustan is collecting any information on crop-spraying operations around the world as a tactic to gain state control over lands."
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/2010/08/uprooting-weeds-by-devorah-brous-march.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 08:26 AM

Jim, the settlements around that toxic dump are illegal and Israel is trying to move them away.
As the responsible Israeli government official said, in one of your own links, "No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 01:29 AM

You have now appointed yourself the spokesman for Israeli atrocities and you are still not providing any links to your statements - you are m aking all this up as you go along - LINKS TO YOUR CLAIMS PLEASE
These sites (there are several of them) effected by toxic waste have been in existence for years, the government has been aware of them, the effects of those forced to live there are suffering bad health, even dying from their effects - this is little short of the ethnic cleansing of those standing in the way of Israeli expansion.

"As a result, the Bedouin community is plagued with extremely high rates of acute and chronic conditions such as asthma, cancer, lung diseases, sleep apnea, miscarriages, and an infant mortality rate three times higher than the national average. Additionally, Bedouins are routinely denied access to basic resources such as water access, municipal garbage removal, or health care. Despite approximately 72,000 Bedouins living alongside high voltage power lines, few have access to electricity."
http://www.ace-ej.org/bedouins_fight_serious_environmental_injustices

Far from your own invention of their improving this situation, the Israelis have been using toxic chemical sprays to kill Bedouin livestock and destroy their crops - and killing off and destroying their health the people living in the vicinity in the process, you have had this information over and over again and you still ignore it - what kind of low-life defends behaviour like that?.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 02:42 AM

I am putting this up separately to give you the opportunity to settle your claims of "non toxicity" once and for all.
The toxicity (or non toxicity) of the site proposed for the forcible move of several thousand Bedouins is an act of State fascism in its own right before you take into consideration the nature of the site.
FACTS ABOUT TOXICITY BOTH FROM SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION AND REFERING TO THIS SITE IN PARTICULAR (including some facts from the Israelis themselves)
The gasses given off from this site will remain in the ground for years. possibly decades after its closure - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Their coming into contact with water produces a toxic mixture - any water in the area will already have been poisoned If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
The usual method of obtaining water in areas like this is to dig wells, any water for human consumption in this area will have long been polluted and toxic. - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Any water in this area for grazing livestock will will be polluted by toxins - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
There have been no statements as to how the Israeli regime intends to irrigate this site - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
If it flows overland it will become toxic - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
The Israelis do not intend to embark on expensive projects to make this land habitable other than by bulldozing the existing rubbish into the ground otherwise they would have announced it when their intentions were made known, as a public relations exercise, if nothing else - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Children playing in this area will be exposed to the risk of coming into contact with rotting rubbish which could effect their health and even kill themIf this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Methane given off by this site, when coming into contact with certain other gasses, including those used for cooking or heating, become toxic and also run the risk of becoming explosive or highly inflammable - this has been stated by the Israeli health officials If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Any one of these facts would make the site liable to the description "toxic" - there is no such thing as an "ordinary" non-toxic rubbish dump in the close proximity of human habitationIf this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Overall fact; had it not been for the public outcry and the threat of a war crimes charge, the Bedouins would have long ago been forcibly settled onto this site, or one similarly valueless and dangerous If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Forcibly removing Bedouins in order to make homes for Jewish settlers is an act of extreme racism If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Any act of forcibly removing a people from land they have occupied for centuries is one of state fascism If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
It was you who first introduced the Bedouins into this discussion to show the egalitarian nature of the State of Israel - bet you're sorry now that you did If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
If you are going to continue defending this act of ethnic cleansing, racism and state fascism, please provide links to genuine information and not just your own inventions.
You are not a spokesman for the State of Israel, merely an apologist for their war crimes and atrocities If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 02:54 AM

Jim.
http://www.ace-ej.org/bedouins_fight_serious_environmental_injustices

This is some bloke's blog.
Is that all that 24 hours of googling could produce?

there is no such thing as an "ordinary" non-toxic rubbish dump in the close proximity of human habitation

Yes there is.
There are many huge ones around Hertford with housing all around them and actually on top of the older ones.

I gave you the information that the rubbish is sealed from the ground and leachate and methane extracted.
That is how it is done here too.
There are no envirenmental issues.

The Israeli government is doing its best to close down the illegal settlements around the actual toxic waste dump.
See your own link!

New recognised settlements have piped water, electricity and sanitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 03:02 AM

You are not a spokesman for the State of Israel, merely an apologist for their war crimes and atrocities If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case


It is true I am not a spokesman.
Happy to clear that one up Jim.

Some people accuse Israel of "war crimes and atrocities."
Israel refutes this.
All the cases you have raised are highly contentious.
You have not produced a single, unequivocal crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 03:30 AM

the Israelis have been using toxic chemical sprays to kill Bedouin livestock

Really?
Any report from Reuters, Al Jazeera, CNN, BBC, or just from sad nutters' blogs?

(500!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

You have had reports from Reuters, from Amnesty International, From Jews for Justice, From Rabbis For Justice, from Journals and newspapers all over the world, from the UN and from accredited surveys set up by the UN and Amnesty.
You have had scientific evidence of the nature and dangers of this site and other sites occupied by Bedouins.
You have had evidence arising from surveys carried out on the "Apartheid" nature of Israeli society, both from inside and outside Israel.
You have totally ignored every point of evidence of toxicity on this site.
You have deliberately refused to provivide any evidence whatever to back up your invented claims and you obviously intend continue to do so.
Just as the Israelis continue to carry out an ethnic cleansing policy in order to expand their state, you continue to lie and distort in order to support human rights abuses, mass murder and other war crimes
I would say by your openly racist behaviour and totally transparent dishonesty you have managed to shit all over your own arguments.
Checkmate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 05:54 AM

Egypt acted against the tunnels because the attack came from Gaza.

The Israeli airstrike was justified and no significant nation or UN has "condemned" them.

The weapons were destined for Hezbollah who are now murdering Syrian people for Assad.

To demonize Israel you have to rake up an event from over thirty years ago that was committed by Lebanese Arabs on Palestinian Arabs, and falsely claim the Bedouin in Israel are persecuted.

Israel seeks to move Bedouin away from illegal settlements near a toxic dump.
Ordinary dumps are harmless when properly run, as Israel's are.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 06:58 AM

"to rake up an event from over thirty years ago"
Thank you once again for bringing to our attention a massacre of 3,000 unarmed and unresisting refugees, facilitated and participated in by the Israeli regime and supported by you.
You have yet to explain why the fact that it happened thirty years ago is relevant – if nothing else, it serves as a reminder (if a reminder were needed) that the slaughter and persecution of civilians is not a new phenomenon, but has been going on for decades, and continues.
"Egypt acted against the tunnels because the attack came from Gaza."
The Egyptian regime, described by you as an oppressive human rights abuser, appears to have got its act together and at last claimed that the closure of the tunnels was a defensive move; others, more democratic and more representative of the Egyptian people, have claimed otherwise – you've had the statement.
The "obscure journal" you refer to is in fact is claimed to be "a publication demanding democratic change in Egypt and the Middle East and The English Language sister paper to Egypt's leading Independent daily newspaper opposing the present regime" – in fact, trying to put right everything you have described Egypt and the Arab nations of being guily of. On this occasion you will support the version of events that suits your particular line – as I said, "strange bedfellows".
"The Israeli airstrike was justified and no significant nation or UN has "condemned" them."
As you said, the UN said that if they are guilty of what they have been accused of, they should be condemned.
"The weapons were destined for Hezbollah who are now murdering Syrian people for Assad."
Nobody has provided proof on this, but you aren't big on proof, having none of your own.
"falsely claim"
You have had your proof, have been given ample opportunity to contradict it and have have refused –game, set and match.
"Israel seeks to move Bedouin away from illegal settlements near a toxic dump.
Ordinary dumps are harmless when properly run, as Israel's are."
You have also have been given ample opportunity to prove this and have again refused.
Toxic dumps have been a reality of Bedouin life for over a decade and no attempts have been made to change that.
'Warm words' don't count.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:24 AM

I cited the Egyptian government.
They should know why they closed the tunnels.

I provided a Haaretz piece about Israel's well run refuse dumps.

Your own link was about Israel wanting to move Bedouin AWAY from toxic sites.

The weapons were for Hezbollah.
There is just no-one in the world denying it except you and Don.
It is an accepted fact.
THAT IS WHY UN HAS NOT CONDEMNED.

You have been wrong about everything Jim, because of your prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM

""He rose to high rank in the army and became a diplomat.""

As I said, living better than any of the Negev Bedouins. What would he know, or care, about their day to day existence?

""Large numbers of Bedouin join the army, swearing their oath of allegiance to Israel on the Koran.""

And many deprived people in other countries join the armies of those countries.

It's one way of getting three square meals a day, but it doesn't mean that all their brethren are treated well. Rather the reverse, in fact!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:55 AM

""No lies from me Don, and no bigotry.
Your prejudice prevents you from accepting obvious truths.
The attackers used the tunnels.
The convoy was carrying weapons to Hezbollah.
You are indeed a deeply prejudiced bigot.""

When did you last hear a bigot say: ""Or maybe the Bedouins were entirely responsible. That's the whole point Keith. There are several possibilities, and I don't pretend to know who actually did the deed and you certainly cannot claim to know either.

You, however, not knowing are bound and determined to exclude Israel alone from any involvement.

You have ignored my entirely credible analysis of the situation with respect to WHO has most to gain, because responding would mean that you would have to refute it logically, which you cannot do.""

So I'm supposed to be a bigot because I point out that there are several possibilities, and refuse to take a doctrinaire position in support of the one you insist upon?

So, here's a challenge for you.

Tell me who you believe has most to gain from the border closure and the complete subjugation of Gaza to the tender mercies of the IDF?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:06 AM

""Jim, whatever your obscure Egyptian magazine says, the Egyptian government and security forces state that the attackers used the tunnels and state that as the reason for the closure and flooding.""

Another of your feeble sidesteps Keith.

By whose standards is the Egyptian Independent an ""obscure Egyptian magazine""? It's a classic false argument to attempt to lower the credibility of a source with which you disagree, and fundamentally dishonest.

Entirely worthy of you!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:13 AM

""If you wish to continue in your claims of "Not everybody there was Hamas because they could not have gotten over the border" YOU need to show when it was re-closed and why.""

OK I'll trade you question for question BB.

If, as you claim, the border was open and free to cross, why were there any tunnels in use?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:19 AM

""Jim, the settlements around that toxic dump are illegal and Israel is trying to move them away.
As the responsible Israeli government official said, in one of your own links, "No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve.""

Are we supposed to believe that the Israeli government has proved incapable of moving them in the nine years since that article was published?

Or is it much more likely that they have not been particularly bothered?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:27 AM

Some people accuse Israel of "war crimes and atrocities."
""Israel refutes this"".

And Keith A. of Hertford thinks that this constitutes evidence.

Not only blinkered, biased and bigotted, but terminally dumb!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:12 AM

Are we supposed to believe that the Israeli government has proved incapable of moving them in the nine years since that article was published?
It was last May Don.

By whose standards is the Egyptian Independent an ""obscure Egyptian magazine""?
I cited the Egyptian government.
They should know why they closed the tunnels.

Ismail Khaldi was born in Khawaled, a village near Haifa.[3] He is the third of eleven children.[1] He lived in a Bedouin tent until the age of eight. He walked four miles round trip to attend school[2] and tended flocks of sheep. He said his family's ties with its Jewish neighbors go back to the days of the early Zionist pioneers from Eastern Europe who settled in the Galilee region in the 1920s.

And many deprived people in other countries join the armies of those countries.
Why don't Palestinian Israelis join then?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM

Some people accuse Israel of "war crimes and atrocities."
""Israel refutes this"".

And Keith A. of Hertford thinks that this constitutes evidence.

No he does not.
Keith A thinks that if the accusation is disputed you must look at both sides of the argument.
That is because Keith A is not a prejudiced bigot.

The evidence to convict is just not there in any of the cases you have raised.
Find an unequivocal crime and put it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:42 AM

Don,

OK- waiting on YOUR answer...



"OK I'll trade you question for question BB.

If, as you claim, the border was open and free to cross, why were there any tunnels in use?"


The tunnels are in use BECAUSE the Gazans are bringing in material ( that you seem to approve of) that is being used to attack both Israel AND Egypt. PROHIBITED weapons, and materials to produce them, are stopped BY THE EGYPTIANS as well as the Israelis.- Something about a UN declaration that Gaza is supposed to be civilian, if it wants to NOT be destroyed by the ONGOING ( i.e., since 1948, and NEVER stopped) war the Arabs have been pursuing against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM

Also,
" Hamas taxes everything that comes through them, shutting down operators who don't pay up. Tunnel revenue is estimated to provide Hamas with as much as $750 million a year. Hamas has also smuggled in cash from exiled leaders and patrons in Syria, Iran, and Qatar that helps keep it afloat.

Samir told me that Hamas leaders and local officials are in business with tunnel operators, protecting them from prosecution when workers like his brother die needlessly. He's convinced that corruption and bribery are rampant. His friends agreed. "Damn the municipality!" Suhail blurted out as Samir spoke.
National Geographic

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM

"They should know why they closed the tunnels."
They are a military regime at war with their own people - though, as I pointed out, they are saying what you need them to say so that's the line you took - gland you put this up though, another hole in your already tattered credibility.
"I provided a Haaretz piece about Israel's well run refuse dumps."
And I provided the definition of "toxic" to give you an opportunity to prove the proposed site is not poisonous - you didn't, which proved fairly conclusively that it is - still open for contradiction though
"Which they haven't done in over a dozen years, and have no plans to do so in the foreseeably future - how long does it take to prevent people, from respiratory failure, cancer.... brought about by the conditions they are forced to exist in?
"The weapons were for Hezbollah."
No evidence of that, but there you go, you aren't big on evidence, are you?
"denying it except you and Don."
Don't suppose you'd care to point out where I said I deny it - won't hold my breath though.
"because of your prejudice."
Wasn't it you who said the only argument against Israeli atrocities, was that provided by the Israelis themselves, yet still you support their carrying out mass murder by denying it, based only on their evidence - dig it out if you want
Thanks for the opportunity again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 02:12 PM

They are a military regime at war with their own people
I thought the Muslim Brotherhood were elected.
Anyway, whatever you think of them, they should know why they closed the tunnels.

And I provided the definition of "toxic"
Yes you did even though we all already knew.
Ordinary refuse sites are not toxic, so what is your point?

"The weapons were for Hezbollah."
No evidence of that, but there you go, you aren't big on evidence, are you?
OK, but that is the only explanation that makes sense.
The only people in the whole world not accepting it are you, Don, and President Assad of Syria.
Everyone else accepts the obvious truth.

you support their carrying out mass murder by denying it,
Not true Jim.
I just related Israel's version and pointed out the lack of evidence to refute it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:20 AM

""It was last May Don.""

Was it Keith! I could have sworn the article showed the findings of the Ministry of Health epidemiological study were published in June 2004.

Now, let's see,......does that sound like last May? NO! Not even to a child in primary school.

Maybe last May was when they finally decided the Bedouins were weakened enough to be more easily shifted, after eight years of inaction?

The relevant article is posted again since you seem to have skipped past it. What else is new?

""A bit more
Jim Carroll
"POWERLESS" BEDOUIN VILLAGE STILL SEEKING HEALTH CARE
BY AM JOHAL
"Israel's Negev desert is facing a public health crisis. After much public pressure, in June
2004, the Ministry of Health revealed the findings of its epidemiological study - there are
65% higher rates of cancer and mortality for those living within a 20km radius of the
Ramat Hovav Industrial Zone. Some 350,000 people live within this danger zone,
including the residents of Beer Sheva. The Bedouin village of Wadi el Na'am is located
500m from Ramat Hovav - which encompasses 19 hazardous agro and petro-chemical
factories, and a toxic waste incinerator. The site has ironically won state awards for
environmental stewardship for four years in a row. In all the paradoxes of Israel, this one
defies expectations. A few years ago, even the IDF vacated the Manos military camp, 2
km to the north of the factories after soldiers became ill, and complained about a fierce
stench from the site."
http://www.caiaweb.org/old-site/files/johal-negev.pdf

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:23 AM

""Why don't Palestinian Israelis join then?""

Are you trying to imply that Palestinian recruits would be trusted, or welcomed, by the IDF?

That is simply laughable.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:38 AM

""Keith A thinks that if the accusation is disputed you must look at both sides of the argument.
That is because Keith A is not a prejudiced bigot.""

Keith A has been asked numerous times to look at both sides of the argument.

To which Keith A has repeatedly responded that Israel is innocent, Israel is right, Israel treats its minorities well and Israel always acts in self defence.

Keith A has never acknowledged that there ARE two sides to the argument.

Keith A has reacted in a one sided, bigotted manner, ignored evidence presented, belittled and denigrated every evidential source other than the Israeli government, even when the source was Israeli soldiers, Israeli human rights organisations and Israeli political opposition.

Keith A has not produced one single piece of hard evidence for his stance, and consistently relied on "Israel refute this"....WELL, THEY WOULD WOULDN'T THEY!.

Is this catalogue of deeply entrenched bias a picture of the balanced and fair minded individual that Keith A loudly proclaims himself to be?

In my opinion NO! IT IS NOT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:46 AM

No Don, that was a different article.
The one with the Regev quote was this one, May 2012.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement


Are you trying to imply that Palestinian recruits would be trusted, or welcomed, by the IDF?

That is simply laughable.

A few do choose to join.
Also many Druze Arabs join.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM

""The evidence to convict is just not there in any of the cases you have raised.
Find an unequivocal crime and put it up.""

Well there you have it folks, our self appointed judge and jury, the "fair minded" (hollow laugh) Keith A has found Israel innocent.

In the real world, however, there is more than enough evidence to try the case in the International Court, and that is exactly what should happen.

The only reason it hasn't happened is the US and UK support for Israel, which repeatedly vetoes any such move.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:58 AM

Last Guest was me.
Please give details of the "repeated" vetoes against prosecution Don.

And Don, this was your post about the article.

Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:19 AM

""Jim, the settlements around that toxic dump are illegal and Israel is trying to move them away.
As the responsible Israeli government official said, in one of your own links, "No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve.""

Are we supposed to believe that the Israeli government has proved incapable of moving them in the nine years since that article was published?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM

""The one with the Regev quote was this one, May 2012.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement""

Thank you guest, I was aware of that.

Jim's post however was in two parts, and I was referring to what came before the above.

Typical of Keith to use his trademark cherry pick to answer the point that enables him to dodge the issue, rather than the one which was actually made.

Ir still remains the case that there was an eight year gap between the publication of the report on that TOXIC (it really is toxic Keith) site and Regev's sudden desire to move the Bedouins, in spite of which, the Bedouins are still there.

I suspect that they will be the last to be evacuated and that most of them will be placed in the poorest townships, with high crime levels, as has been reported.

The fact is that they are farmers with the capacity to supply food to the nation, while sustaining themselves without government aid

They have been reduced to penury by government refusal to acknowledge their long established tenure of that land, as evidenced by the "non recognition" of their villages and the fencing off of their grazing to reduce their livestock and wreck their financial independence.

Lastly, of course, the Bedouin were already in residence in that area when the decision to locate a toxic site there was made.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:21 AM

""Everyone else accepts the obvious truth.""

Maybe that's the problem. It is obvious to YOU and the Israelis.

Any other country on earth may move its weaponry within, or close to, its own borders and it will pass unremarked by the rest of the world.

Any country, that is, except Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Egypt.

And what major feature do these countries share? They all have the misfortune to be near neighbours of Israel, the only state on the planet (apart from the US) which respects no national borders whatsoever.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:26 AM

""Everyone else accepts the obvious truth.""

Maybe that's the problem. It is obvious to YOU and the Israelis.

Even Jim says he does not deny this fact Don.
You are on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

"I thought the Muslim Brotherhood were elected"
Are you claiming that the regime you have persistently described as "oppressive" and that you used to describe as persecuting Bedouins are no longer this and are to be believed rather than the Egyptians demanding democracy
Are these protesters what – terrorists?
"OK, but that is the only explanation that makes sense."
You have ignored the reasons given by the democratic opposition for the flooding – if that doesn't make sense – show why.
"Ordinary refuse sites are not toxic, so what is your point?"
All "Ordinary" refuse sites are toxic when there are people in the area depending on their livelihood and water from polluted soil.
You have been invited to show how the specified conditions do not coincide to the reported conditions on this site – are these reports "anti-Semite lies" even though they have been drawn from scientific journals and reports from the Israeli authorities – you have been given all the links.
An added factor to the site's toxicity is the vermin which scavenge from these sites long after the rubbish has been bulldozed.
The Israelis have put no plans forward to make this site habitable; you have declined the invitation to show that they have. The likelihood of them carrying out the necessary work is contradicted by the fact that they have known about other toxic sites for over a decade and have done nothing whatever.
Had it not been for worldwide outrage and threats of war crimes proceedings the Israelis would have moved the Bedouins onto the site long before now.
"in the whole world not accepting it are you, Don, and President Assad of Syria."
Don't be fucking ridiculous.
"and pointed out the lack of evidence to refute it."
A total lie – you have denied it and have admitted that the only claims for Israel not being part of the massacre comes from the Israelis and have been given a mountain of evidence to show they were – you even went as far as to accuse Israeli soldiers who were there as being "untrustworthy" (anti-Semitic, no doubt), and have totally ignored the evidence of the Jewish nurse who said she saw Israeli troops observing the massacre and doing nothing, then hiding the evidence by bulldozing the bodies into the ground.
They then erected a sports stadium over the mass graves to make sure they couldn't be found.
How long are you going to continue this disgusting nonsense?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 10:25 AM

"Even Jim says he does not deny this fact Don."
Don't you dare use me for your lying arguments - I asked you to produce evidence that I have said anything on the matter - you haven't and I didn't.
"the whole world not accepting it are you, Don, and President Assad of Syria"
Utter crap - all we have had so far is a reported statement from Reuter, quoting an (in your own words) oppressive regime making unqualified claims - no more.
Personally I would rather give credence to the statements of the democratic forces in Egypt rather than an (in your own words) oppressive regime - that you would prefer to believe an (in your own words) oppressive regime, says what needs to be said about you and your lying case.
"The world" has yet to make a pronouncement on the matter - perhaps we can ask Captain Janeway to ask its opinion as she zooms past on her way to fight the Borgs.
Your arguments get more moronic as you put them forward and your persistent practice of lying to make your case is evidence (the only piece you have produced so far) that you have no case to make.
STOP LYING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 10:29 AM

You put such a lot of bollocks into one post, it is impossible to deal with it all at once!
It is all old stuff too.

All "Ordinary" refuse sites are toxic when there are people in the area depending on their livelihood and water from polluted soil.

No they are not.
I live near some very large ones.
Properly run as the Israeli ones are, they do not pollute the land or the water.
The rubbish is buried at the end of each day's tipping so there is no problem with vermin.
I have told you this enough times, why do you you keep demonstrating your stupid ignorance?
Ordinary refuse sites are not toxic.

I will rubbish the rest of you ludicrous post when I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:38 AM

"it is impossible to deal with it all at once!"
Not to a normal literate human being it ain't, just an excuse to avoid answering - which you have done none of.
"It is all old stuff too."
Been there, done that
When do massacres and human rights abuses become out-of-date?
As far as the toxicity of the site is concerened -proof that it is has been long provided and you have refused to provide one single reason why it isn't.
Your crass "I've lived near..." is total shit as has been pointed out and ignored by you
Done and dusted!
"I will rubbish the rest of you ludicrous post when I can."
Can't wait.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:43 AM

believed rather than the Egyptians demanding democracy

The democracy demonstrators won.
The Muslim Brotherhood were freely elected.
They might have been expected to sympathise with Hamas as brother Islamists.
The attack through the tunnels pushed them too far.
They not only closed Hamas' tunnels, they pumped in a million gallons of shit.
I see no reason not to believe them about why.
What is your reason Jim?

Personally I would rather give credence to the statements of the democratic forces in Egypt rather than an (in your own words) oppressive regime
Yes, I too would rather give credence to the Muslim brothers rather than Hamas.
We agree Jim.


"Even Jim says he does not deny this fact Don."
You challenged me for suggesting that you denied it Jim!
Do you deny it or not?

It will be a few hours before I can finish this demolition job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:49 AM

As far as the toxicity of the site is concerened -proof that it is has been long provided and you have refused to provide one single reason why it isn't.
Yes I have.
Ordinary properly run refuse sites are not toxic and do not pollute.

Your crass "I've lived near..." is total shit as has been pointed out and ignored by you
It is true.
You can not point out that I do not live near them, they are all around Hertford.
My daughter in Ware has one across the road from her.
Your are being ridiculous about this.
It is a non-issue.

Now wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 12:27 PM

According to the thread title, Israel has been unUNfriended. Gotta love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 01:29 PM

"Your are being ridiculous about this."
'Fraid it's you being ridiculous Keithie.
Comparing the situation in Israel with that of middle England is utter ******* nonsense and you know it.
"What is your reason Jim?"
You've given the reason yourself; they are an "oppressive regime" who are presently at war with their own people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM

Comparing the situation in Israel with that of middle England is utter ******* nonsense and you know it.
You are wrong.
Israel is fanatical about preserving its aquifers, and the regime described by Haaretz is exactly the same as that used here.
There are no issues around ordinary waste sites.
It is a non-issue.

The Muslim Brotherhood are the freely elected government of Israel, and unlike Hamas will have to seek re-election.
They are not at war with their electorate.
You made that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 03:52 PM

Correction, "freely elected government of Egypt"

totally ignored the evidence of the Jewish nurse who said she saw Israeli troops observing the massacre and doing nothing,.

Her testimony was given at the enquiry.
She only saw soldiers outside the camp.
They would not have been able to see into the warren of streets.

then hiding the evidence by bulldozing the bodies into the ground
You made that up Jim.
She reported no such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:05 PM

""The Muslim Brotherhood are the freely elected government of Israel,""

REALLY???

You're even confusing yourself!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:23 PM

No.
You are demonstrating your profound ignorance AGAIN Don.
You make a fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:29 PM

BBC.
As it happened: Egypt election result
Key Points
Mohammed Mursi of the Muslim Brotherhood has won Egypt's presidential election

He took 51.73% of the votes cast, some 13.23 million votes in total

Former PM Ahmed Shafiq polled 12.35 million votes, the electoral commission announced
Huge cheers went up from thousands gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square after the result was known

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:33 PM

""Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:38 AM

""Keith A thinks that if the accusation is disputed you must look at both sides of the argument.
That is because Keith A is not a prejudiced bigot.""

Keith A has been asked numerous times to look at both sides of the argument.

To which Keith A has repeatedly responded that Israel is innocent, Israel is right, Israel treats its minorities well and Israel always acts in self defence.

Keith A has never acknowledged that there ARE two sides to the argument.

Keith A has reacted in a one sided, bigotted manner, ignored evidence presented, belittled and denigrated every evidential source other than the Israeli government, even when the source was Israeli soldiers, Israeli human rights organisations and Israeli political opposition.

Keith A has not produced one single piece of hard evidence for his stance, and consistently relied on "Israel refute this"....WELL, THEY WOULD WOULDN'T THEY!.

Is this catalogue of deeply entrenched bias a picture of the balanced and fair minded individual that Keith A loudly proclaims himself to be?

In my opinion NO! IT IS NOT!

Don T.""

Post completely ignored by Keith A, who HAS no answer, because his bias is revealed in almost everything he says.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

""Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM

""The one with the Regev quote was this one, May 2012.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement"" (the guest in question was Keith)

Thank you guest, I was aware of that.

Jim's post however was in two parts, and I was referring to what came before the above.

Typical of Keith to use his trademark cherry pick to answer the point that enables him to dodge the issue, rather than the one which was actually made.

Ir still remains the case that there was an eight year gap between the publication of the report on that TOXIC (it really is toxic Keith) site and Regev's sudden desire to move the Bedouins, in spite of which, the Bedouins are still there.

I suspect that they will be the last to be evacuated and that most of them will be placed in the poorest townships, with high crime levels, as has been reported.

The fact is that they are farmers with the capacity to supply food to the nation, while sustaining themselves without government aid

They have been reduced to penury by government refusal to acknowledge their long established tenure of that land, as evidenced by the "non recognition" of their villages and the fencing off of their grazing to reduce their livestock and wreck their financial independence.

Lastly, of course, the Bedouin were already in residence in that area when the decision to locate a toxic site there was made.

Don T.""

Yet another awkward post ignored completely by "fair minded Keith", who vigorously insisted that he always answers posts honestly (another hollow laugh) and never ignores them.

Almost twelve hours after the posting of the second one, he has yet to acknowledge the existence of either, or to answer either honestly, or dishonestly.

Perhaps because he is only able to do the latter?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:53 PM

Or perhaps because he hoped they would pass unnoticed?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:56 PM

""He took 51.73% of the votes cast, some 13.23 million votes in total

Former PM Ahmed Shafiq polled 12.35 million votes, the electoral commission announced
Huge cheers went up from thousands gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square after the result was known""

In case you haven't been paying attention (AGAIN), they aren't cheering now!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 01:19 AM

Keith A has been asked numerous times to look at both sides of the argument.
To which Keith A has repeatedly responded that Israel is innocent, Israel is right, Israel treats its minorities well and Israel always acts in self defence.

Not true.
I have never claimed that.
In response, and only in response, to you and your phalanx of Israel haters posting screeds of anti-Israel propaganda, I have related Israel's version of events.
I have only ever claimed that the events are disputed and the evidence equivocal.

An open minded person could not object, but you can not bear it.
You only want to consider one side, because you are a prejudiced bigot

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 01:44 AM


In case you haven't been paying attention (AGAIN), they aren't cheering now!

In what democracy anywhere do crowds cheer their elected government Don?
In what democracy anywhere are there no demos. against the elected government Don?

They are still accountable and freely elected Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:04 AM

"Israel is fanatical about preserving its aquifers,"
Israel is equally fanatical about acquiring territory for Jewish settlements, to the extent of driving thousands of people onto a poisoned (the description of their own health department) land to get it.
Bedouins have lived on similar land, and worse for over a decade without Israel lifting a finger to change that situation.
Far from treating the toxic nature of Bedouin living conditions the Israeli regime has used toxic sprays on Bedouin crops and livestock in order to drive off a people from land that they have occupied for centuries.
The very act of forcibly moving an ethnic group off their land to make room for another people is racist driven fascism in its purest (probably an inappropriate word to describe some of this planet's worst atrocities) form; the methods being employed to carry this out, chemical warfare is ethnic cleansing, no less.
You are fully aware of all this, just as you are fully aware of the toxic nature of the proposed forcible re-settlement, which is why you refuse to offer an alternative explanation by answering the list of definitions which make the site toxic, even though some of those descriptions are based on the Israeli's description of the site.
Those conditions, in their own words, will continue to exist for years, even decades - the site you are defending will remain toxic for the foreseeable future.
Had it not been for world-wide condemnation and the threat of prosecution for war crimes, the Bedouins would have been forcibly moved onto this site long ago, almost certainly without any preparatory work being carried out, or even a promise to close it, leaving the Bedouins to live, fall ill, suffer and die because of their toxic surroundings.
THAT IS YOUR NON-ISSUE
I have no doubt you will continue to ignore all this and refuse to refute these facts with evidence of your own, but once again, thanks for the opportunity to show what a nasty, fanatical wee jobbie you are.
I see you are continuing to defend the "democratic" nature of a regime that you have described as an oppressive human rights abuser - is this your definition of "democracy" or have you taken another trip down that good ol' road to Damascus?
"Do you deny it or not?"
Where did I ever state it Keith - a quick cut 'n paste should do the trick? You appear to have ben caught out lying about this one too.
You have my position on Egypt's motives, which, once again, you have refused to respond to with evidence, or even opinion of your own concerning the democratic forces statement of why the tunnels were flooded.
You seem to have re-entered into your Dalek-like repetition mode on this one.
Jim Carroll   
"I will rubbish the rest of you ludicrous post when I can."
Was really looking forward to this - still too busy?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:09 AM

""Not true.
I have never claimed that.
In response, and only in response, to you and your phalanx of Israel haters posting screeds of anti-Israel propaganda, I have related Israel's version of events.
I have only ever claimed that the events are disputed and the evidence equivocal.

An open minded person could not object, but you can not bear it.
You only want to consider one side, because you are a prejudiced bigot""

Ah yes! The tried and trusted Keith A "get out clause".

"I am only relaying the words of others, so the fact that I ignore or deny everything else is their fault, not mine"

Never once have you produced anything other than rehashed Israeli propaganda, and I would point out that a significant proportion of my ""phalanx of Israel haters posting screeds of anti-Israel propaganda"" are Israelis!

And those who repeatedly try to get you to acknowledge that there are two sides to the argument are the ""prejudiced bigots""

Classic, but getting very, very boring!

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:22 AM

you are fully aware of the toxic nature of the proposed forcible re-settlement, which is why you refuse to offer an alternative explanation by answering the list of definitions which make the site toxic, even though some of those descriptions are based on the Israeli's description of the site
No.
They are all harmless refuse sites except the one where there are unrecognised and illegal habitations.

"Do you deny it or not?"
Where did I ever state it Keith
Nowhere Jim.
That is why I ask "Do you deny it or not?"

Don, I absolutely accept that there are two sides.
You lot put up the anti-Israel view, and I raise no objections.
I reply with Israel's version, and you all throw your teddies out of your prams!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:40 AM

"Nowhere Jim."
Then why did you lie and say I had?
"denying it except you and Don."
"They are all harmless refuse sites"
Which makes the Israeli health department, scientific journals and the UN, who pointed out that it was a war crime to move people onto such a site liars (antisemitic, no doubt)
How long can you keep up this fanatical farce without responding to one single fact that has been put before you with evidence of your own rather than unqualified denial?
"I reply with Israel's version,"
No you don't, you reply only with your own bigoted defence of war crimes and atrocities - show us where you have even linked to Israel's or anybody's versions THESE ARE YOUR INHUMAN VIEWS AND YOURS ALONE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:53 AM

"They are all harmless refuse sites"
Which makes the Israeli health department, scientific journals and the UN, who pointed out that it was a war crime to move people onto such a site liars
You must have misunderstood them Jim.
Ordinary refuse sites are harmless.

Then why did you lie and say I had (denied it)?
Sorry if I got it wrong, but you challenged me strongly for suggesting the weapons were bound for Hezbollah.
So, do you deny it or not?

show us where you have even linked to Israel's or anybody's versions
I have linked to pages on Israel's MFA site, to pages about Ismail Khaldi, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM

This is as far as it can go
You have been given the toxic elements of this site point by point which you haven't even bothered to respond to.
You have been invited to show how each of these elements does not relate to conditions on this site which you have not even bothered to respond to.
You have passed of one of the largest single massacres in the latter half of the twentieth century, facilited by and participated in by the Israeli regime as "having nothing to do with the other than the misdemeanor of not stopping it" - despite the evidence of Israelis who were there and took part in it, and you have described as "untrustworthy".
You have openly supported ethnic cleansing, racist eviction and chemical warfare.
You have consistently lied about facts, about other people's contributions to this thread, and you have lied about lying.
You have called those who have opposed your obscenities, liars, Antisemites, gullible, supporters of terrorism, prejudiced bigots..... which accurately sums up your own position.
You have contradicted yourself over and over again.
You are now stating openly that your position is totally bigoted in favour of Israeli war crimes and abuses of human rights.
"I reply with Israel's version"
You have given no evidence whatever to back up your case and you have refused or ignored all requests to do so.
You are, by your own words and your actions a lying, racist, supporter of war crimes and abuses - we knew that from your statments here and on other threads, notably your extremely vicious attacks on British citizens from other cultures on the disgusting 'Muslim Prejudice' thead.
I never expected an honest, informative debate from you, but was happy to let you present yourself in your full fascist, racist, lying glory.
You have done that admirably, far better than any of us could.
"You'll never get a free lunch in this town again" - to borrow a phrase.
I can't speak for Don and the others who find you a disgusting little toe-rag, but - to borrow one of your own phrases "my work, (or rather, your work), "is done here".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 06:04 AM

I have not called anyone or anything antisemitic on either of these threads.

You resort to personal attack again Jim, as you always do when losing an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 02:07 PM

Speaking objectively and with regard to nothing the posts themselves, that would indeed appear to be the case. Why, even constant waves of my magic wand appear to have little effect in the obviation of this phenomenon!

☤MtheFGM!☤

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 05:56 PM

So if Israel's actions are considered illegal by the UN, how is this not a condemnation? Who needs to get their facts straight for once?

Israel may have an election process but it is still a theocracy. Some would like
to make the US a Christian theocracy but so far haven't succeeded as they have in Israel making it a Jewish theocracy. Zionism comes from biblical references.
Many conservative Jewish rabbis in Israel are calling the shots.

The issue is religious difference between Zionist Judaism (hard core) and Islam (equally fundamentalist). Still, the Palestinians are an oppressed people.

The ridiculous argument over The Temple of the Mount exacerbates the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 02:56 AM

Jim, if MtheGM can see that your reversion to personal abuse is actually an admission of defeat, you may be sure that other objective observers will have noticed the same.

Stringsinger, you originally claimed that UN condemned Israel for this.
Now you say "Israel's actions are considered illegal by the UN"
They are not.
There has been no such international or UN criticism which is an acknowledgement that the weapons were destined for Hezbollah.

Jim's position on that is confusing.
He got cross when I said he denied it, and even crosser when I said he didn't!
What are you like Jim?

Much talk about rubbish.
There is a toxic waste dump in the Negev.
It has been there for 38 years.
There are some illegally built habitations nearby, but no-one was forced to move there and no-one is forced to stay there.
When they are removed no doubt Jim will bleat that it is a "war crime."

The 1982 war in Lebanon.
As you would expect for events over thirty years ago, no new facts have emerged, except for the ones that Jim made up.

The tunnels.
We know why Egypt poured shit into them, because the government has told us.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 02:59 AM

"Speaking objectively...."
One goose-stepping foot-soldier is sufficient for the time being Mike. Taking on the officers who only emerge out of the dug-out when the fighting's all over would be a tad ambitious now, wouldn't it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 03:09 AM

LoL, Jim...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 03:10 AM

... & thanx 4 the commission!

MGM ~ Brigadier Commanding

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM

Keith;
"MtheGM can see that your reversion.....
Mike is one of these still-in-the-closeters who only come out when somebody else has done the work and when it's safe for him to do so.
His opinion has just about the same weight as yours, only, unlike you, he knows when to keep his head down.
Keep up the good work, I'm sure you're appreciated somewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:27 AM

I make no secret of my opinions or tendencies of any sort, Jim, even if I am not always repetitively proclaiming them. So I am somewhat exercised as what sort of 'closet' you consider me to be in, or in relation to what. Could you perhaps clarify?

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:34 AM

""You lot put up the anti-Israel view, and I raise no objections.
I reply with Israel's version, and you all throw your teddies out of your prams!""

You have raised nothing but objections!

No evidence!
No argument!

Just objections to the mountain of evidence presented, when you bothered to read, or to comment on it.

Just objections to the sources of that evidence, questioning their veracity and their motives and branding them antisemitic, even when they were Israelis themselves.

Just objections to our pointing out that Israel, as well as Hamas, bears some measure of responsibility for the enmity which is destroying Palestine.

Objections in fact to anthing that suggests that there are indeed two sides to the argument.

Then you call us bigots, and claim that you believe there are two sides to the argument, when twelve pages of your comments give the lie to that claim.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:50 AM

""There is a toxic waste dump in the Negev.
It has been there for 38 years.
There are some illegally built habitations nearby, but no-one was forced to move there and no-one is forced to stay there.
When they are removed no doubt Jim will bleat that it is a "war crime."""

I posted, ages ago, evidence that the Negev Bedouins had inhabited that land for 600 years.

You ignored it, as is your normal reaction when you have no response.

Thank you for confirming what I said earlier, that the Bedouin were already there 38 years ago, when the Israelis established a toxic site right alongside their dwellings.

All of which means that Israel has been aware of the dangers for 38 years, and has done nothing to alleviate it, and you praise them for wanting to move the inhabitants away from a hazard which should never have been there. Not to the up market accommodation for "real" Israelis, which replaces the Bedouins, but to low quality townships with high crime rates.

Yes Keith, Israel sure does look after its Arab minority.....NOT!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:55 AM

Don, I have NEVER raised any objection to anyone making a case against Israel.
That is just untrue.

I just say, OK now here is Israel's side of the story.

People who only want to hear one side, ie prejudiced bigots, get cross with me for that.

That seems to be your position Don.
You do not want anyone to put the opposite case.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:59 AM

Not fair to accuse Mike, Jim.

He has made plain his disappointment with the way that the Israeli government is operating, and he's under no obligation to keep repeating it.

He is not in Keith's camp, by any means, though he does have a point re personal comment, which, looking at recent comment could very well also be applied to Keith.

The only person who believes Keith is winning the argument is Keith, poor soul, who doesn't realise he has yet to produce a reasoned argument. Denial is not debate!!

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:04 AM

""Don, I have NEVER raised any objection to anyone making a case against Israel.
That is just untrue.""

No, of course you haven't. You just ignore their evidence, present none in rebuttal, and call them ""prejudiced bigots.""

All of which sounds quite suspiciously like objecting.

Seriously, is English your first language?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM

I really don't want to come back into this at the moment - I have already been reprimanded by Keith in a PM for having done so (happy to put it up with my reply - waddya say Keith?)
"Not fair to accuse Mike, Jim"
Sorry Don - not convinced.
I have a vivid memory of Mike having supported Keith's vile outpourings on Muslims as not being racist on the 'Muslim prejudice' thread while at the same time being (rightly) offended at the idea of all Jews being categorised as usurers.
Don't particularly want to wade through that particular cess-pit again, but I might be persuaded if it was thought necessary - and it goes without saying, I apologise in advance if I have mis-remembered.
I still firmly believe his opposition to the Israeli regime is 'praising them with faint damns', but I might be persuaded otherwise if he was to offer an opinion on Shatila/Sabra, or toxic sites, or the forcible removal of Bedouins from their lands to make room for settlements, or the use of chemicals on lands, livestock and people..... but I'm sure Mike has as little concern for my opinion of him as I have for his of mine.
Now - a bit of weeding before it starts to piss with rain again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM

You just ignore their evidence, present none in rebuttal

Not true.
For instance I rebutted Jim's assertions about refuse sites with a discussion of Irael's sites from Haaretz, quotes from Egypt's government from Reuters etc., I have linked to pages on Israel's MFA site, to pages about Ismail Khaldi etc., etc.

I do regard it as prejudiced bigotry to only want to hear one side of a dispute.
I never object to anyone putting the case against Israel.
Why do you object to Israel' case being put?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:19 AM

I posted, ages ago, evidence that the Negev Bedouins had inhabited that land for 600 years.
You ignored it, as is your normal reaction when you have no response.

No, I just considered it unworthy of a response.
We all knew that Bedouin have been roaming the lands from the Arabian Sea to the Mediterranean for centuries.
So what.
They can build houses wherever they want?

Our gypsies have roamed our land for centuries, but no-one is allowed to build wherever they want in a modern crowded land.
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 10:57 AM

Still don't see where being in any sort of 'closet' comes into it, Jim. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:57 AM

..."Mike having supported Keith's vile outpourings on Muslims as not being racist on the 'Muslim prejudice' thread" .....
.,,.,
and without going back over all that again, it seems necessary to remind you yet again that 'racism' is not an appropriate term to use in this context, as Islam is NOT a 'race'; the same accusations of abuse can be adduced, as is happening on the currently ongoing "Let's hope this isn't true" thread which I know you have been following, in the practices of Islamist Sharia governments in the Arab world, SE Asia, Africa [particularly N Nigeria], all of whose populations are racially distinct and it is the ideology, not anything to do with the 'race', which is being obloquised.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 12:10 PM

... and Mali, and some Indian Ocean islands; all Sharia Islamist, and all discrete racially.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 12:17 PM

As to my 'damns' against Israel being perceived by you as being 'faint', perhaps they will thus provide some counterbalance to your immoderate and hysterical denunciations. They seem anyhow to have convinced DonT of my sincerity in this particular. He actually reproached you for you constant abuse of me over the matter a few posts back.

(Thank you Don!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 03:27 PM

Still don't see why 'closet'
Sorry, maybe 'out of the closet' is nearer the mark'
Didn't really expect your opinions on Sabra/Shatila, the treatment of Bedouins, et al – good job I didn't hold my breath!
"'racism' is not an appropriate term to use in this context,"
Describing male Pakistanis as being culturally implanted to make them prone to underage sex is a horrific racist statement which implicates an entire racial group (or the male half of one), which you describes as not being racist, Unless you would like to claim that it was all Jack Straw's fault, as Keith does.
Forcibly moving Bedouins from their traditional lands to make room for Jewish settlers is a racist act.
KEITH IS A RACIST.
Since my name has been taken in vain since I left this thread;
You have endless rejected linked information from sources you have claimed to be biased (or even "only blogs") yet you admit you are only presenting one side of the picture – you have even gone so far as to say that the only information on the Sabra/Shatila massacre in favour of the Israeli part in that massacre comes from the Israelis themselves – the facilitators and participants. That admission alone makes you prejudiced by definition of the word; the fact that the only claim of innocence of the Israelis comes from Israelis, the perpetrators themselves, underlines Israel's guilt in this massacre.
We have bent over backwards not to present information from Arab sources because we knew you would use that as an excuse to dismiss it – how does that make us bigoted and not you?
"Why Israel"
Because you chose to present the Bedouins in Israel as an example of egalitarian and tolerant treatment of all peoples by Israel. Why else – your choice alone?
Please stop complaining because your dishonesty and stupidity comes back and bites your bum.
You consistently refuse to explain why the maltreatment of people elsewhere in any way excuses the proven persecution of Bedouins by the Israeli regime, though your choosing Britain as a comparison is not a bad one – Britain is also persecuting and maltreating Travellers to the point of extinction as an ethnic group.
"They can build houses wherever they want?"
The Bedouins are a nomadic people and their enforced eviction to make room for Jewish settlers is not only a racist act, but the conditions pertaining on that site make it a war crime.
Also, your refusal to acknowledge the fascist/racist nature of forcibly removing one ethnic/cultural group to make room for another is an act of classical state fascism is an opportunity to reiterate this fact, over and over again until you stop ignoring it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM

I still don't know what 'closet', in or out, you are on about. But let it pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:31 PM

Arab Bedouin, Ismail Khaldi comes to a pro-Israel rally at a Seattle Synagogue to support the State of Israel's war against Terrorism, for real peace and to expose Palestinian (Pallywood) lies of Israel being a "Apartheid State". As an Arab, he is treated as well as a Jew. He is one of the most well respected soldiers in the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) and is into Israeli Politics. He explains how Arabs are well treated by Israel and live better than when they did under Arab rule. He is not the only well known Arab Bedouin in the IDF, Israeli captain and war hero, Amos Yarkoni (born Abd el-Majid Hidr) was one of the best Israeli war hero of the 1940's during the Arab-Israeli War. Even "Palestinians" are racist against Bedouins, Druze, Baha'i and Gypsies (Domari people).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:14 PM

...& as for your pathetic

"Didn't really expect your opinions on Sabra/Shatila, the treatment of Bedouins, et al – good job I didn't hold my breath!"

as Don so correctly pointed out, I have expressed my opinions on such goings-on by the Israeli govt to ∞. Do you really think I am going to go on to further ∞, to ∞+++, again&again&again&again, simply to satisfy your vile kinky notions of exploiting my feelings of lifelong frustration & grief & disappointment, you nasty little sadist you!

Be off with you, Carroll, you disgusting little tormentor. Bury your head & feel shame.

But I won't hold my breath either...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 12:52 AM

And just in case that might sound a bit paranoid, remember the wise words of Joseph Heller in Catch-22, notoriously quoted by the brilliant but disturbed Kurt Cobain before his suicide: "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:56 AM

"I have expressed my opinions on such goings-on by the Israeli govt"
No you haven't Mike, you've given a rather gentle and very general and difficult-to-pin-down slap on the wrist to the perpetrators of these crimes - no more, at least, not as far as I can see, and I have hopefully searched for it not to be the case.
If I am wrong, indulge me and give me links to your opinions on Sabra/Shatila and the toxic nature of Israel's proposed resettlement of the Bedouins, and the fascist and inhuman nature of even contemplating such an act.
"Bury your head & feel shame."
No shame here, I haven't given my continued support to a racist who has defended and continues to defend war crimes and massacres and has consistently lied, distorted and evaded proven facts in order to do so.
I suggest you read through these two threads, and maybe revisit Muslim Prejudice and tell us that you find them honest, accurate, in any way backed up by evidence - and that you are happy to continue supporting such an individual.
I have no desire to arm-wrestle with you over a deplorably squalid little racist shit who has used this forum as a soapbox to promote race and culture hatred and defend deplorable war crimes and human rights abuses.
I think Don is probably right, but I have no idea why you have consistently given your support to somebody who continues to spout his filth, and who, as I'm sure you have noticed, is more than happy to hide behind your support to give some sort of respectability to his rantings – you have always struck me as better than that.
Nobody here has "exploited your feelings.... and it is sinking to Keith's level to suggest they have - shame on YOU. I haven't sought you out; you have chosen put yourself in the firing line with your support for this gobshite; what do you expect us to do - go home and let Keith get on with his racist vomit in order not to hurt your feelings?
These subjects are far too important to some of us to let them go unchallenged.
In sorrow,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM

defended and continues to defend war crimes and massacres and has consistently lied, distorted and evaded proven facts in order to do so.
deplorably squalid little racist shit who has used this forum as a soapbox to promote race and culture hatred and defend deplorable war crimes and human rights abuses.
continues to spout his filth,
Keith get on with his racist vomit

More lying personal abuse.
You do it when you lose an argument.
It is an admission of defeat.

If I had really done those things, everyone would know and remember it and I would be notorious.

If you believe it Jim, indulge me and provide links to me defending crimes or being racist.

In the "Prejudice" thread my case was just that there was an over-representation.
It was true then and has been proved true again and again in case after case since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 05:20 AM

Sorry.
defended and continues to defend war crimes and massacres and has consistently lied, distorted and evaded proven facts in order to do so.
deplorably squalid little racist shit who has used this forum as a soapbox to promote race and culture hatred and defend deplorable war crimes and human rights abuses.
continues to spout his filth,
Keith get on with his racist vomit

More lying personal abuse.
You do it when you lose an argument.
It is an admission of defeat.

If I had really done those things, everyone would know and remember it and I would be notorious.

If you believe it Jim, indulge me and provide links to me defending crimes or being racist.

In the "Prejudice" thread my case was just that there was an over-representation.
It was true then and has been proved true again and again in case after case since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:06 AM

"give me links to your opinions on Sabra/Shatila and the toxic nature of Israel's proposed resettlement of the Bedouins"...

.,,.,..,

I have no specific links to these specific enormities to give you, Jim. They are all just a part of a pattern of entirely unpardonable behaviour on the part of an entity which I now regret having devoted so much of my youth to bringing about; so that I don't even read the details of the current incidents and situation there any longer because I find it [can you really not get this?!] altogether too painful and distressing. If you think that is 'faint' dispraise, mere 'wrist-slappery', think on. What more do you want me to say? I cannot but feel that the whole situation is the result of the behaviour of Israel's Arab neighbour-states in 1948; and that Israel's paranoia to this day derives directly thence. I suppose you will regard this as mere all water under the bridge; but my Heller quote re paranoia applies to nations as well as individuals. Israel is paranoid; would be as I say: but that doesn't mean that they are not all, or most of them, still 'after them', aren't they? Israel has gone too far. They have alienated all right-thinking people. Even my sister keeps her lips buttoned on the subject, tho her first son was born there. He lives in Devon now; but her second son, who was born here, now lives there - and our lives are spent in a state of constant worry and anxiety as to whether he will still be living there tomorrow. Try a bit of empathy, Jim. Sorry if I have gone a bit incoherent. Enough, before I burst into tears. The subject is one infinitely distressing to me

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:22 AM

"If I had really done those things, everyone would know and remember it and I would be notorious."
You are Keith, it appears that you thick skin has prevented you from noticing it.
None of this refers to anything but your arguments and the way you have behaved towards members of this forum - it is not personal abuse, it is a summing up of how you have conducted yourself throughout several threads.
You have lied, you have made outrageously racist statements - which you have blamed on others, you have refused to back up your statements with anything resembling facts, you have deliberately ignored direct requests to comment on facts put before you and to explain your own statements, (eg. why is a massacre carried out 30 years ago not relevant when discussing Israel's human rights record?, or how does pointing out oppressive behaviour by other states in any way absolve Israel's appalling behaviour?, you have accused others of bigotry and discrimination while actually admitting that you are only putting Israel's point of view.
You have had a dozen points put to you why the proposed site for resettlement is poisonous and have been given the opportunity to dispute them point by point, which you have totally ignored, yet you go on denying these facts.
You have done the same with Israeli massacres and its slaughter of non combatants, all historically documented, and you have not produced one shred of evidence to back your claims.
I have never ever come across anybody so unashamedly dishonest, nor have I ever anybody so lacking in self respect as to behave the way you have publicly.
Not a personal attack - another invitation to prove that what I have just written is untrue.
Feel free.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:23 AM

""I never object to anyone putting the case against Israel.
Why do you object to Israel' case being put?""

I have no objection to you putting Israel's case Keith. Please let me know when you get round to actually doing so.

Denial is not evidence of innocence!
The word of the accused is not evidence of innocence!
Whitewash is not used to cover evidence of innocence!

Produce evidence from some source which is not wholly owned or threatened by Israel.

I have produced the evidence of Israelis against the Israeli government and the IDF.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

""No, I just considered it unworthy of a response.
We all knew that Bedouin have been roaming the lands from the Arabian Sea to the Mediterranean for centuries.
So what.
They can build houses wherever they want?""

More devious evasion!

If you had read the whole article, you would be aware that the Bedouins of that Negev community have been SETTLED there, farming for 600 years. That particular community is not nomadic, and was settled there in the 16th century, still there when Israel came into existence and still there when Israel decided to build a toxic facility next to their long established land.

They didn't wander in and settle next door to a health hazard, it was brought to them!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:40 AM

""He is not the only well known Arab Bedouin in the IDF, Israeli captain and war hero, Amos Yarkoni (born Abd el-Majid Hidr) was one of the best Israeli war hero of the 1940's during the Arab-Israeli War.""

So, he fought against his own people, changed his name to a Jewish one, and you cite him as a shining example of how well Arabs are treated.

He's a bloody Israeli war hero, yet he felt the need to cange his name to fit in.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:45 AM

""No you haven't Mike, you've given a rather gentle and very general and difficult-to-pin-down slap on the wrist to the perpetrators of these crimes - no more, at least, not as far as I can see, and I have hopefully searched for it not to be the case.""

For Christ's sake Jim. Give it a bloody rest.

None of us owe you any duty to tell you squat about our opinions. If we choose so to do, fine.

If not, learn to live with it. You are not a member of the Spanish Inquisition and you have no right to anything more than we are prepared to offer.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 11:29 AM

"For Christ's sake Jim. Give it a bloody rest."
Done here Don
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 11:35 AM

I meant with Mike of course; I suspect that the subject will run and run
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 02:07 PM

No Jim.
I am not notorious.
You have not convinced anyone else that I am an evil racist because I am not one and so my posts do not incense anyone but you.

Al, Dick, McGrath and others have all tried to tell you.

You have lied, you have made outrageously racist statements
not true.

defended and continues to defend war crimes and massacres and has consistently lied, distorted and evaded proven facts in order to do so.

deplorably squalid little racist shit who has used this forum as a soapbox to promote race and culture hatred and defend deplorable war crimes and human rights abuses.

continues to spout his filth,

Keith get on with his racist vomit

Nasty, untrue personal abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 02:20 PM

Don.
Produce evidence from some source which is not wholly owned or threatened by Israel.

Sorry, but I am putting Israel's case.
And, you said "I have no objection to you putting Israel's case Keith."

If you had read the whole article, you would be aware that the Bedouins of that Negev community have been SETTLED there, farming for 600 years.

Of course I read it Don.
It was that same old Pheobe Greenwood stuff theat Jim put up as well.

If you ignore the propaganda, you will see that they are living in tents and tin shacks.
No permanent buildings.
Tents and shacks do not last ten years never mind 600.

this slipped through.
" these villages will be evacuated in the next five years and ecah of their inhabitants compensated to move to one of seven government-planned townships"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM

"" these villages will be evacuated in the next five years and ecah of their inhabitants compensated to move to one of seven government-planned townships""

Townships in the poorest districts, with built in high crime levels?

Some compensation! Out of the toxic frying pan into the high crime slum.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 04:05 PM

""Sorry, but I am putting Israel's case.
And, you said "I have no objection to you putting Israel's case Keith.""

You don't accept the Palestinians' or Hamas' word alone, so we put up corroborating evidence, much of it from Israeli and neutral sources.

You put up Israeli denials as a case and seem to think that outweighs all evidence to the contrary.

I don't believe you have a clue what constitutes a case.

I don't believe you have a clue what constitutes genuine evidence.

In fact, I think you believe that evidence is whatever you choose to believe, and incontovertible because you choose to believe it.

You have signally failed to put Israel's case and if you ever had to present your ""evidence"" in any court, you would be torn apart by any half decent law student.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 04:16 PM

"Produce evidence from some source which is not wholly owned or threatened by Israel."

Antisemitism as defined by the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)

"Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM


You put up Israeli denials as a case and seem to think that outweighs all evidence to the contrary.
No.
I just relate Israel's side of the story.

Townships in the poorest districts, with built in high crime levels?
That is just Greenwood's opinion.
Biased and prejudiced propaganda.
Do you think people prefer to live in shacks and tents with no sanitation, water or power?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 02:55 AM

"Sorry, but I am putting Israel's case."
And those (just about everybody here) who oppose you have taken their information from everywhere - the U.N., Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the British, American, Israeli.... press, specific studies of Israel's built-in inequality (the Apartheid State), American, British and Jewish accounts of the massacre of refugees, Scientific Journals, Israeli's own health reports.... (just about anywhere's throughout the English-speaking world's)with a few translations thrown in.
You haven't attempted to disprove any of the evidence, you have rejected it out of hand as being prejudiced, 'antisemitic'; you have even rejected some evidence on the basis that it comes from the "antisemitic" Guardian purely on the the say-so of a site that declares in it's mission statement that it's role is to expose the "antisemitic nature of The Guardian".   
You are now insisting, by your constant reiterating that you are "putting Israel's case", that you are biased - you might have added that you are rejecting all evidence that doesn't come from Israel, which totally sums up the biased nature of your arguments.
That is the definition of "bias"; only taking into consideration one side of the argument.
By the way, you have claimed that you have not accused any of us of antisemitism.
By rejecting the evidence ("not worthy of consideration") put before you on the basis that it is biased and antisemitic, that is exactly what you are accusing everyone who is disgusted by Israel's human rights record of - antisemitism, or at the very least antisemitic dupes.
Your denial of lying appears to be 'lying about lying' - I trust we will soon be treated to you lying about lying about lying!
There's a whole list of examples if you want me to dig them, out - this forum's full of them; but your claim to have read all the links put forward, then passing a year old one as being "out-of-date", then being totally unaware of how many you have been given is being caught 'bang-to-rights - that's the problem with lying in public.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 05:04 AM

And BTW - you have also admitted that the only claim of of innocence of Israel's war crimes is from Israel herself, which more or less clinches her guilt.
"That is just Greenwood's opinion."
Nope - a fact reported throughout the Israeli Inequality survey and from 100 other sources - some of which you already have - read 'em and weep!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 06:49 AM

""Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.""

Where precisely in that oft quoted screed is there any reference to disagreeing with, deploring, or decrying the actions of a national government, or are you now applying different standards to the Israeli government than to all others?

Antisemitism would more properly apply to Keith's constant denigration and disrespect of those Israeli citizens who have either given evidence against, or deplored their government's actions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 06:57 AM

If I can not provide any evidence or arguments, it is surprising that the discussion has lasted for so long, and that you have lost it.

So, has Israel been condemned for the airstrike?
No, because the weapons were destined for the evil terrorists of Hezbollah now killing Syrians for Assad.

And, did Egypt's government pour sewage into the tunnels because they were used in the attack?
Yes. They are quite clear about that.

And, are Israel's refuse sites any more toxic than ours?
No.

Has anyone been forced to move to a toxic site, or to stay near one?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 08:42 AM

Nope - a fact reported throughout the Israeli Inequality survey

Nope- not a single mention for "Bedouin" or "Negev."

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:yaQGdb_Gh1MJ:adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf+Ineq

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 08:45 AM

http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 01:38 PM

The reason the discussion has lasted so long is that it is urgent that the world condemn Israel for it's expansion and oppression.

Israel has been and will continue to be condemned for it's air strikes because they are ruthless and accomplish nothing to assuage Hezbollah or any other group like it.

Not so fast about Egypt pouring sewage into tunnels. That has not been confirmed.

The Palestinian people are forced into living conditions which don't preclude their exposure to toxic sites. People are forced into these conditions not by choice but often by design. To think otherwise is simply naive. They are usually built by those inhabitants who are not wealthy or privileged.

No one should ever have to be forced to live by a toxic waste site and yet increasingly this is what is happening all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 02:59 PM

""The Palestinian people are forced into living conditions which don't preclude their exposure to toxic sites.""

Not to mention the people of Gaza, who are forced to live in and around bombsites and unexploded munitions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 04:07 PM

Not so fast about Egypt pouring sewage into tunnels. That has not been confirmed.

Wrong again Stringsinger.
It has.
Your OP was total bollocks too.
Anything to say about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 05:18 PM

1) Stringsinger's OP was not total bollocks. It did however gild the lily. The Israeli's were condemned for the crap they did in the settlements years back but not what they did in Syria recently.

2) As I said, Egypt closes tunnels to Gaza so we blame the Israelis. So when Canada closes pipelines to the US we blame the Israelis. Makes perfect sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 01:21 AM

I have to disagree 999.
Here is the OP in full.

Both the United Nations and Russia have condemned Israel for the bombing of Syria and Lebanon, hoping that Israel will be forced to appear at the International World Court.

That is not partial bollocks, that is total bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM


No one should ever have to be forced to live by a toxic waste site and yet increasingly this is what is happening all over the world.

Yes Stringsinger, but thankfully not in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 09:42 AM

Keith. You don't know that. You're making an assumption not based on evidence.
The government of Israel is not going to tell anyone if they live near a toxic waste site.
Nor will the US or any other country. This is why many are getting sick today, but this is a whole new thread. Israel is as culpable in this regard as any other corporate controlled country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM

""2) As I said, Egypt closes tunnels to Gaza so we blame the Israelis. So when Canada closes pipelines to the US we blame the Israelis. Makes perfect sense to me.""

If you are going to take issue with what we are saying, it might be worth your while to find out what that is, don't you think Bruce?

I have not said that Israel is to blame for the closure, by Egypt, of the tunnels.

What I have said is that nobody knows for sure who the killers of those Egyptians were, who precipitated the closure, and I stand by that statement. Can you prove that I am wrong?

They could have been Palestinian. They could have been Hamas. They could have been Mossad.

I don't know, you don't know and Keith doesn't know, but Keith is the only one who expresses complete certainty that Israel alone of the possible miscreants, are innocent.

So I ask him who he thinks has most to gain from the closure and the isolation of Gaza from the outside world, and again he exempts Israel from the answer to that question, ignoring the fact that access to Egypt weakens the Israeli hold on Gaza, which they are actively engaged in blockading.

Do you recognise BIAS when you see it?

Or are you another who believes that bias only applies to Israel's opponents and not its supporters?

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Gil Troy
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 03:54 PM

McGill University has been my academic home for two decades. I have taught thousands of students, always encouraging them to ask, challenge, learn and think independently. I frequently echo a friend of mine who would grandly welcome me into his home saying, "He who is shy does not eat" by saying, "He – or she – who is shy does not learn." I love the classroom's openness, the luxury we students and professors have to explore intellectually together. I relish every class I have taught as a learning journey, trying to break down the artificial barriers we all erect that stop us from thinking, stretching and growing.

Given that love of the learning process, I was surprised last month when I appeared at the McGill bookstore for a lunchtime lecture to launch my new book. For the first time in my McGill career – despite having taken controversial positions over those years – I was picketed. My crime, of course, was being a Zionist and writing a book about Zionism –Moynihan's Moment: America's Fight Against Zionism as Racism. As I and others who came to the lecture ascended the third-floor staircase, two or three protesters presented us with an anti-Zionist handout, emphasizing that they were Jewish and anti-Zionist.

Most people attending the lecture ignored the protesters, who hold weekly anti-Zionist vigils. It's important to emphasize that there were 15 to 20 times more attendees than protesters. One student, Yonah Diamond, who was a Shalom Hartman Institute summer intern with me last summer, spoke to the protesters, respectfully. A Jewish studies and political science major from Toronto, Diamond challenged an "End Zionism" sign they had brandished a week earlier. He asked: "Don't you see the hypocrisy in advocating on behalf of one people's rights [the Palestinians'] while simultaneously denying that self-determination to another people?"

Diamond quickly realized "they were completely OK with this hypocrisy, because they simply accepted stereotypical accusations, which they claimed to be historically accurate," taking refuge in the usual anti-Zionist buzzwords: "colonialist, ethnic cleansing, racist, apartheid." Their discussion about a two-state solution was particularly appalling. "They thought the idea of partition or two states was racist," he reports, which suggested to him that "they're not living in reality… they truly believe the lies and stereotypes."

During the question period following my lecture, one protester, wearing anti-Zionist slogans on his ski jacket, took something I said out of context to accuse me of being "racist." He lacked the discipline or the integrity to ask a question. He had not come to learn, only to posture. Although I had told the bookstore officials I did not object to the students leafleting inside the warm store rather than outside in the frigid cold – because I believe in academic freedom – his approach, which reflected no interest in learning, offended me – and I told him so. He walked away angrily.

Another protester asked a reasonable question. After comparing Israel to apartheid-era South Africa – a premise I refuted by noting the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a national not racial conflict – he asked what criticisms I had of Israel. This question gave me an opportunity to celebrate Israeli democracy, and demonstrate that I, like others, have many concerns regarding the peace process, the growing gap between rich and poor and the role of the ultra-Orthodox. But, I pointed out, whatever criticisms I have, I don't reject the state. I don't demonize a country because, like all countries, it's imperfect.

In truth, the other questions I fielded were better, fuller, richer, more illuminating about my talk – and more to the point. They were asked by people who came to learn, not to score points, and they pushed me to refine some ideas while inviting me to emphasize others.

Diamond believes, that, ironically, the protesters, "proved the importance of [my] message. The way they unthinkingly accused Israel of all these modern evils emptied these terms of any meaning. This ignorance filled the halls of the UN General Assembly in 1975 and continues to poison the minds of my fellow students. [Former American UN ambassador] Daniel Patrick Moynihan taught us that words and ideas have far-reaching consequences, and this couldn't have become clearer to me that day."

Students such as Yonah – some of whom, like him, become friends – make teaching at McGill a privilege. Not because he agrees with me, but because he comes to learn, and therefore does.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 04:41 PM

Thanks Gil.
Two recent events in Brit universities.
Politician George Galloway was to take part in a debate about Israel.
When he learned that a student in the debate was an Israeli, he walked out.

A Bedouin Israeli invited to speak at another was shouted down and prevented from speaking by demonstrators.

What are these people afraid of?
Perhaps the truth.


What I have said is that nobody knows for sure who the killers of those Egyptians were, who precipitated the closure, and I stand by that statement. Can you prove that I am wrong?

I have only stated that Egypt knows.
The soldiers who fought them, from what happened at the funerals, believed Hamas was responsible.
The government closed the tunnels immediately, as a result of the attack.
After seven months of intelligence gathering and investigation, they clearly were completely satisfied as to who was responsible, and closed the tunnels in the most insulting and contemptuous way possible.

Why don't you tell them that they know nothing Don?
They might make you chief of security.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 04:45 PM

So I ask him who he thinks has most to gain from the closure and the isolation of Gaza from the outside world, and again he exempts Israel from the answer to that question, ignoring the fact that access to Egypt weakens the Israeli hold on Gaza, which they are actively engaged in blockading.
Israel has been steadily reducing restrictions on Gaza.
It is only weapons and explosives now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:35 AM

Minds, like parachutes, work only when open.

You are terrified of giving any consideration to anyone's viewpoint other than your own blinkered and biased mindset, and you spout other peoples opinions as if they were your own, then disown them when challenged.

It is a waste of time and effort trying to elicit either a balnced response or a single self produced thought or idea from you. It is always a case of "It's not my opinion, he (choose from the list of apologists) said it, and I believe him".

You are a highly selective but hollow sounding board for anybody who echoes your inbuilt anti Muslim (religious and cultural bias), Pro Israel (racial bias) prejudice.

In future, why not just post links to the people whose opinions you borrow, and we'll discuss it with them?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:49 AM

That is all just personal stuff about me Don, and not true.

Why not just address the points I make in my posts?
A discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM

""Why not just address the points I make in my posts?
A discussion.""

Constant denials without evidence, comments on what Israel thinks, Egypt thinks, Hamas thinks, or God thinks, are meaningless since you cannot read minds and you do not present evidence.

They do not amount to discussion.

Younever discuss! You ASSERT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM

Constant denials without evidence, comments on what Israel thinks, Egypt thinks, Hamas thinks

Totally untrue.
What have I ever denied without evidence?

What Israel thinks. I have quoted from spokespersons or sites.
Why not?

What Egypt thinks?
I quote what their government says.
It says it closed the tunnels because of the attacks.

What Hamas thinks?
Who knows?
I have never speculated.

Why not just debate with me Don?
Point for point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:38 PM

AIPAC has surreptitiously placed a gag order on mainstream media's reporting on Israel.
Al Jazeera may be the only source left on TV to get to the truth.
The Netanyahu warmongers have infiltrated the US government and they are terrified of AIPAC. The so-called Jewish lobby exerts undue influence in the US.
This is the reason that reportage is not only inaccurate when it exists but mostly is absent from the air ways.

For this reason, we are unable to get the real facts on this issue and must resort to wild speculation and ad hominem arguments.

The evidence is here, though. Any attempt to land supplies to the Palestinians is shut off by Israeli attacks.

The evidence presented here by pro-Israeli fanatics has to be specious.

The Palestinian people are suffering at the hands of Israel. That is indisputable.

The danger is that Israel could trigger another world war unless brakes are put upon their expansion by the international community.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM

Any attempt to land supplies to the Palestinians is shut off by Israeli attacks.

Yes, but you will not read about it on Al Jazeera or anywhere else.
The Jews control everything you see, hear or read now.

The evidence is here, though.

Fool.
We have controlled Mudcat for years.
No-one sees your warnings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM

Stringsinger, put down the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - it's a hoax.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:43 AM

""What Hamas thinks?
Who knows?
I have never speculated.""

IS THAT SO?

Then what would you call your assertion that the attack on Egypt was designed by Hamas to acquire vehicles to attack Israel?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:51 AM

""Why not just debate with me Don?
Point for point.""

I cannot debate a two sided issue with somebody who doesn't recognise the existence of two sides.

When one person consistently says "You are wrong, because Israel says so", when Israel's actions are the point of the supposed discussion, debate becomes impossible.

When one person responds to every single piece of evidence presented with either "The source is unreliable, anti Israel, or antisemitic", or "Israel denies that", debate becomes impossible.

But of course you know all that already. It's your stock in trade to block debate when you know you have a weak or indefensible case.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM


Then what would you call your assertion that the attack on Egypt was designed by Hamas to acquire vehicles to attack Israel

Because that is what happened Don!
See the links on the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:21 AM

When one person consistently says "You are wrong, because Israel says so",

But, I never say any such thing.
I read and acknowledge the version of events supplied by you and Jim, and then provide a different version equally or more consistent with the known facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:55 AM

""I read and acknowledge the version of events supplied by you and Jim, and then provide a different version equally or more consistent with the known facts.""

Such as the ""different version equally or more consistent with the known facts.""........ ""Israel denies that"" in response to one or more of my posts containing multiple accounts by reliable eye witnesses and others, equally reliable.

Would you like me to locate and post the relevant ""different version equally or more consistent with the known facts."", or would you rather not force me to expose your lie?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:12 AM

How can we tell if eye witnesses are reliable?
Remember the ones who saw IDF soldiers throwing bodies off the Marmara?
Or the ones who saw a young activist executed on deck, with "video"?

People lie, especially about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:21 AM

""People lie, especially about Israel.""

But in your fantasy world, of course, it is inconceivable that the Israeli government could equally lie?

The fact that some people lie or are mistaken is not, by any stretch of the imagination, evidence that Israel does not.

And remember the inconvenient fact that many of those witnesses are Israelis.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

It is not an inconvenient fact Don.
Every country has citizens who hate it enough to lie to discredit it.

I trust no assertions, especially from "eye witnesses" who only appear long after the event.

Robert Fisk and the nurse were there in the immediate aftermath and testified at the time, as did Israeli soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:37 PM

""It is not an inconvenient fact Don.
Every country has citizens who hate it enough to lie to discredit it.

I trust no assertions, especially from "eye witnesses" who only appear long after the event.""

You trust NO ASSERTIONS which show the lengths to which the Israeli government is willing to go in destroying and annexeing the land which rightly belongs to Palestinians.

Thjat doesn't mean that you are right, or that any of those witnesses lied.

It simply means that you wouldn't believe Israel was wrong if Netanyahu and his cohorts confessed and swore it on the Talmud.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:17 PM

The defense of Israel is a losing proposition because the world community knows what's going on there. The delusion that Israel is somehow acting in good faith as a world
community is being challenged every day by new news of atrocities in that country.
Every country in the world has leaders that lie to keep their positions secure. The big lie is that Israel's supporters in their egregious actions are in a state of national denial.
I reiterate, Zionism has a false equivalency with Judaism. There are Jews all over the world who are disgusted at the actions Israel has taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:16 AM

Don, people lie.
We can still have a discussion.

Stringsinger, you are a troll.
You start threads and post inflammatory, unsubstantiated accusations.
We know you hate Israel.
Posting more groundless accusations is no contribution.
If you have no facts, fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:47 AM

"If you have no facts, fuck off."
Tsk, tsk - careful - the mask's slipping.
No - not only is it you who has no facts, but you have rejected out of hand every single researched and documented "fact" put before you - even to the "factual" dictionary definition of "toxic" and how it applies to the proposed forcible removal of a nomadic people onto a site where they will not only not be able to continue their livelihood, but will - by that definition (accepted by the Israeli health authorities), be slowly poisoned simply by being forced to live in its proximity.
The "fact" that you have refused to comment on the "fact" that the forced removal of people of one national/cultural group in order to make room for another is the act of a Fascist/racist regime - by anybody's definition, is indicative that you are fully aware of this "fact" yet refuse to even acknowledge it.
The real "fact" here is that you have failed to produce one single "fact" yourself; rather you have chosen to deny every "fact" put before you that doesn't favour Israel - the only "facts" you have produced have been invented by you, in "fact" they are lies.
You've done this in support of mass murder (of old and young, men women and especially children), human rights abuses and ethnic cleansing - a "fact" which makes you a supporter of all these and much, much more.
In "fact" it is you that is the "troll" here, and a pretty stomach-heaving one at that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 04:00 AM

So, nothing to add to the discussion then Jim.
We waited four days for that non-contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 04:55 AM

Incidentally – you typically forgot to mention that Nurse Helen Seigal, despite having given evidence at the Kahan Commission of Enquiry, witnessed Israeli bulldozers destroying refugees houses, and that she saw (heavily armed and well-trained) Israeli soldiers viewing the massacre close hand for three days without lifting a finger to intervene.
The bulldozers were later used to hide the bodies (and, no doubt, build the stadium over the mass graves to hide the evidence)
"We waited four days for that non-contribution."
I assume you were counting the days - are we back at the royal "we"?
Jim Carroll

Ellen Siegel is a Jewish American. She first visited Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon in 1972. Since that time she has been an active member and supporter of the Jewish and Israeli peace movements, and has supported the Palestinian solidarity cause. She volunteered her nursing services in 1982 during Israeli's war on Lebanon. She worked in Gaza Hospital, Sabra refugee camp in Beirut and was present during the massacre. She testified before the Kahan Commission of Inquiry. She continues to work part-time as a nurse in WDC, and serves on the Medical Committee of the American Near East Refugee Aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:08 AM

""Stringsinger, you are a troll.
You start threads and post inflammatory, unsubstantiated accusations.
We know you hate Israel.
Posting more groundless accusations is no contribution.
If you have no facts, fuck off.""

I reckon you hit a nerve there String!

Made the faux polite veneer slip a bit. I always knew it was only a mask.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM

""I reiterate, Zionism has a false equivalency with Judaism. There are Jews all over the world who are disgusted at the actions Israel has taken.""

Not to mention the Jews within Israel itself who are equally disgusted, though of course, as Keith will no doubt tell us, they are all liars and malcontents,........in Keith's fantasy world!

A world in which all, without exception, who criticise any action of the Zionist government of Israel are either liars or antisemites, while all who endorse every action (including Keith himself) are models of moral rectitude and veracity, who spend their days polishing their haloes.

Fantasy barely covers the lunatic impossibility of that mindset.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:54 AM

You want something new? - as fresh as this morning's news.
What's a girl to do - ignore, deny or accuse Unicef of being antisemitic - choices, choices?
Jim Carroll

PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ILL-TREATED BY ISRAELI MILITARY, SAYS UNICEF.
MARK WEISS
In Jerusalem

The United Nations Children's Fund (Unicef) has accused Israel of systematic ill- treatment of Palestinian children detained in the West Bank in violation of international law.
Unicef estimated that 700 Palestinian children aged 12-17, most of them boys detained for throwing stones, are arrested, interrogated and held by the Israeli military, police and security agents every year, an average of two a day.
A 22-page report issued yesterday, based on more than 400 cases of detention and ill-treatment documented since 2009, identified practices that "amount to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment", according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Convention against Torture.
According to the report, ill- treatment of Palestinian minors typically begins with the arrest itself, often carried out in the middle of the night by heavily armed soldiers, and continues all the way through prosecution and sentencing.
"The pattern of ill-treatment includes... the practice of blindfolding children and tying their hands with plastic ties, and physical and verbal abuse during transfer to an interrogation site, including the use of painful restraints."
Most children confess at the end of the interrogation, signing forms in Hebrew which they hardly understand, the report says.
"Ultimately, almost all children plead guilty in order to reduce the length of their pretrial detention. Pleading guilty is the quickest way to be released. In short, the system does not allow children to defend themselves," Unicef concluded.
Unicef was also critical of what it termed the inadequacy of the Israeli military court system for processing Palestinian juvenile detainees in an appropriate manner for their age.
Unicef noted some positive changes introduced by Israel in recent years: hand-tying procedures were changed to prevent pain and injury; police are now required to notify the parents of detained children; and children are informed of their right to consult a lawyer.
Israel's foreign ministry stressed the improvements that were welcomed by Unicef and promised to study the report's conclusions and work to implement them through co¬operation with Unicef.
An Israeli army officer said the military was considering videotaping interrogations, and that, from next month, a minor will only be held for a maximum of 48 hours before appearing before a judge.
Qadoura Fares, chairman of the Palestinian prisoners' society, which is in touch with the prisoners and their families, praised the report and called for Israel to be held accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:03 AM

Jim
Incidentally – you typically forgot to mention that Nurse Helen Seigal, despite having given evidence at the Kahan Commission of Enquiry, witnessed Israeli bulldozers destroying refugees houses, and that she saw (heavily armed and well-trained) Israeli soldiers viewing the massacre close hand for three days without lifting a finger to intervene.

She reported no complicity.
Yes the militia had Israeli equipment including bulldozers.
The houses destroyed were on the edge of the camp, she said.
Houses on the edge would be fortified by the PLO defenders.
She reported Israelis observing from outside.
Even from rooftops they could not have seen what was happening in the warren of streets.

Don, do you support Stringsinger starting threads with blatant lies and posting inflammatory, unsubstantiated, groundless accusations just to foment an argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

Jim, your last post is not a contribution to the debate, it is starting a new one!
Another thing you always do when losing one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:53 AM

Apartheid Israel – it's official
First this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075985/Women-told-sit-buses-Israel-despite-practice-outlawed.html
Now this
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/05/17194265-a-palestinian-rosa-parks-is-needed-israels-segregated-buses-spark-outrage

Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM

And now, another one!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:33 AM

Oh no - not the "Old 2013 thread drift" show!!!!
Neither of these are thread drifts - they both relate directly to the human rights record of Israel.
The child abuse report particularly relates directly to UN condemnation of Israel for human rights abuses against children by Israel
You do not get out of either of these by scurrying behind the old tried-'n -failed "thread drift" defence.
You can't pick-'n-mix which particular human rights abuses and war crimes you want to defend on a thread that you have drifted to the "good treatment and equality of all Israeli citizens - and various other human rights abuses - sorry 'bout that.
PLEASE RESPOND TO THESE ABUSES.
And by the way - Helen Seigal specifically reported seeing the Israeli troops standing by watching the massacres take place OVER THREE DAYS and doing exactly nothing and then destroying the evidence with bulldozers - is this right, antisemitic, made up, or what?
Perhaps in quoting witnesses, it is wiser to steer clear of those with a conscience, especially those who went off and joined the Palestinian Solidarity campaign on the strength of their experiences.
Y'all have a good day, d'you hear now!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:46 AM

Helen Seigal specifically reported seeing the Israeli troops standing by watching the massacres take place OVER THREE DAYS and doing exactly nothing and then destroying the evidence with bulldozers - is this right, antisemitic, made up, or what?

Made up Jim.
When she was led out of the camp in the aftermath she reported Israeli soldiers outside the camp looking in.
Even from rooftops they could not have witnessed events in the streets.

Jim, Israel is NOT the worst country in the world so why do you single it out.
All countries are criticised from time to time.

Israel's response.
Buses.
The reality is exactly the opposite – there are no "Palestinian only" buses. Instead, with its new bus routes, Israel is reducing crowded buses, attempting to relieve ethnic tensions and security concerns, and is assisting Arab Palestinians enter Green Line Israel to work. But we'll get to the facts – which exonerate Israel from "Apartheid" charges – in a minute. For right now you can rest assured that despite efforts to cast the Arab Palestinians in the role of Rosa Parks, a closer fit would be to cast the purveyors of this latest attack as peddlers of the Big Lie.

The bare fact: the Israeli government added two bus lines (so far, there was overcrowding on Monday, March 4, the first day the service was instituted, and the Transportation Ministry said more buses will likely be added) that will serve Arab Palestinian towns with transportation into central Israel. The Israeli bus lines previously did not stop in towns controlled by the Palestinian Authority. Despite the efforts of BDS advocates, there are tens of thousands of Arab Palestinians who work in different parts of Israel. Arab Palestinians with work permits would previously have to travel first to a place where the Israeli buses stop, or would be dependent on the much higher-priced Arab buses to get into central Israel.

So why the hysteria? Because some see this as an evil plot to segregate Jews and Arabs. But non-citizens are not entitled to use Israeli public transportation into central Israel without showing border identification, and prior to the provision of these new bus lines, Arab Palestinians were dependent on transportation services by "pirate" (Arab, by the way) companies which charged the Arabs far more than the Israeli lines do.
The new bus lines are not, as the misleading headlines suggest, only for Arab Palestinians, the restriction they have is that they only stop at Arab towns in the territories

Child prisoners.
Figures from the end of January showed that of the 233 of the "children" currently held in custody, 202 of them were over the age of 16, according to the AFP news agency.

The report, entitled, "Children in Israeli Military Detention," claimed, "Ill treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli military detention system appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized."

In response, Israel's Foreign Ministry said it had provided UNICEF with material used in the report and pledged to work towards implementation of its conclusions.

"Israel will study the conclusions and will work to implement them through ongoing cooperation with UNICEF, whose work we value and respect," a Foreign Ministry statement said.

The majority of PA Arab teens incarcerated and referred to in the report were apparently arrested for hurling rocks at Israeli motorists – an act intended to kill, and which has sometimes succeeded.

Last December, a 17-year-old rock-throwing Arab nearly killed a baby when the huge rock he hurled at an Israeli car smashed the window a few inches from the infant. Mainstream media ignored the attack.

"We were saved by a miracle," "Roie," a resident of Samaria, told Arutz Sheva. "I do not even want to think what would have happened if the rock had hit the baby."

A year earlier, rock-throwing road terrorists succeeded in murdering Kiryat Arba resident Asher Palmer and his toddler son, Yonaton, when they threw a rock at Palmer's car from a passing vehicle on Highway 60 in Judea. The murder, which to police at first appeared to be a routine traffic accident, later was proved through evidence to be a terrorist attack.

In 2011 a 17-year-old PA youth, Hakim Awad, was arrested for the murder of five members of one family, including a 3-month-old baby girl.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:08 AM

"Made up Jim."
So the witness you have been quoting in favour of your argument is a liar - how clumsy of you.
"Rosa Parks"
So the outcry that is taking place over the segregation of buses, including the Daily Mail are all by anti Semite liars
Ah well, you live and learn.
"Child prisoners."
Even if these children taken into custody (700 of them) were what you describe as rock-throwing terrorists, International law demands that they receive fair treatment and correct procedure - they have received neither from the Israelis which makes the Israeli regime what - you guessed it as human rights abuser and international criminal.
These are children and the Israeli regime are fascist thugs who have been caught violently abusing child prisoners.
I can't he;lp but notice that your "information" comes without links which , yep, you guessed it again - it is all your own work.   
As you so succinctly nearly said to Stringsinger
Stringsinger, ......You ...... post unsubstantiated accusations.
We know you hate......Jews (see British fascist thread)
Posting more groundless accusations is no contribution.
If you have no facts, fuck off."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:32 AM


So the witness you have been quoting in favour of your argument is a liar - how clumsy of you.
She is no liar.
She just never said that.
YOU made it up Jim.

You could have googled the text to find the sources.
I will do it for you now.
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/palestinian-only-buses-in-israel-goebbels-big-lies-are-back/2013/03/05/0/
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165943#.UTiAPB3jeTM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:17 AM

Nope - by your own rules neither of those count as information - they are denials by a press which supports continuing Israeli atrocities - you have rejected information by neutral bodies, and not so neutral bodies such as the the UN, Amnesty..... Human Rights watch (which you have used when it suits you) extremist Daily Mail, so why on earth should anybody here accept what they say - now even the word of a nurse who gave evidence to the Kahan Committee (she actually said that she saw Israeli soldiers viewing the massacre through binoculars.
You have called soldiers who were at the massacre and were greatly disturbed at the behaviour of their own troops "liars".
Throughout this thread you have abandoned any attempts at even claiming to provide real evidence.
You have abandoned any attempts to hide your now open dishonesty by lying publicly.
More disturbingly, you now appear to have abandoned your fanaticism and nreplaced it with simple-mindedness verging on insanity.
You are one sick cookie!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:51 AM

Those sources gave the Israeli side of the bus and child prisoners stories.

The nurse saw IDF soldiers observing, a mile away from the edge of the camps, after the massacre.
The camps stretched for over a mile beyond that, and are a warren of narrow streets and densely packed buildings.
They could not have seen events happening in those distant streets.

You made up that, "Helen Seigal specifically reported seeing the Israeli troops standing by watching the massacres take place OVER THREE DAYS and doing exactly nothing and then destroying the evidence with bulldozers"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:52 PM

"Helen Seigal specifically reported seeing the Israeli troops standing by watching the massacres take place OVER THREE DAYS and doing exactly nothing and then destroying the evidence with bulldozers"
You've had the information - look for it yourself; I'm through providing links to a little shit who doesn't read it, provides no links of his own or when he is forced to, only provides it from a human rights abuser - BY HIS OWN ADMISSION.
You have rejected out of hand the press reports on the bus segregation and also the Unicef report on prisoner abuse and replaced it with the Israeli's own account - tell us why they differ or in your own words, "If you have no facts, fuck off."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM

Another eye witness account of the massacre for you to ignore but for others to read.
Jim Carroll

FROM BEIRUT TO JERUSALEM
EYE-WITNESS TO SABRA-SHATILA MASSACRE
Dr.Ang Swee Chai
"The slaughter of unarmed children, women, the aged and the infirm was shocking. For me, I was doubly outraged that I had to discover the truth about a brave and generous people only through their deaths. Until then, I never knew Palestinian refugees existed. As a fundamentalist Christian, I had been a supporter of Israel, hated Arabs and saw the Palestinian Liberation Organisation as terrorists to be loathed and feared."
Extract from the back cover of her book "From Beirut To Jerusalem"

Dr Ang Swee Chai grew up supporting Israel. Arabs, she was told, were terrorists. But in 1982, on the television she saw the relentless bombing of Beirut by Israeli planes. Shocked, her view of Israel began to change. It was then that she heard of an international appeal for an orthopaedic surgeon to treat war victims in Beirut. The petit woman - she was just under 1.5 meters - resigned her job in London, bade her husband farewell and set out on a journey to civil war Beirut, there she was to eye-witness the Sabra-Shatila massacres*.
With her husband Francis Khoo, and some friends, Dr Ang Swee Chai helped to form the British charity, Medical Aid for Palestinians (MAP), following the 1982 Sabra-Shatila massacres. In 1987, PLO chairman Yasser Arafat awarded Dr Ang Swee Chai the "Star of Palestine" the highest award for service to the Palestinian people.
The Massacre
The phalange militia were Israel's proxy in Lebanon, their members were recruited from the Maronite Christian community. They were payed for, trained and armed by Israel. They were effectively an extension of the IDF, and were usually sent in to do the dirty work.
After Sharon's army had taken West Beirut and sealed off all escapes routes from the Palestinian refugee camps, Sharon ordered the phalange in. The official order from Sharon read "for the operation in the camps the phalange should be sent in"*. Knowing that the camps were full of unarmed civilians - mainly women and children, only around 150 phalange were deployed. The testimonies of the survivors suggest that both Israeli soldiers and their mercenaries the Phalange entered the camps and participated in the massacre**.
The Israelis supervised the operation from their forward command post, a six story building overlooking the camps. From there they gave logistic support and relayed orders to the soldiers on the ground. Concerned that reports of the on-going slaughter would leak out, the soldiers were ordered to continue the killing through out the night - to facilitate this the Israelis lit up the sky with flares all night long. The idea was to kill as many Palestinians as quickly as possible, before international pressure would put a stop to the operation. Over 3000 elderly men, women and children were murdered. Next the evidence had to be buried quickly - so the Israelis send in bulldozers. Houses were packed with bodies and demolished to form mass graves. One such mass grave contained a thousand bodies.
*see BBC Panorama "The Accused" 2001.
** Survivors interviewd on 22 Sep reported that many of the soldiers who did the killing did not speak Arabic and Israeli newspapers (in Hebrew) and Israeli food rations were found left behind. A young boy, Munir, who was left for dead under a heap of 27 bodies confirmed that he has seen both Israelis and Phalange murdering people, when he was brought to Gaza Hospital on 17 Sept. (Src: 'From Beirut To Jerusalem' pgs 61, 69 & 71)
http://inminds.co.uk/from-beirut-to-jerusalem.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

""Jim, your last post is not a contribution to the debate, it is starting a new one!
Another thing you always do when losing one.""

While your insistence on adding Egyptian treatment of Bedouins to a discussion of Israeli action is, of course, entirely acceptable when you are losing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM

You've had the information - look for it yourself;

I have and can provide links if you want.
She said no such thing.
She was in the hospital throughout the massacres, and was unaware of them.
She saw her first Israelis a mile outside the camp and after the massacres.

Dr.Ang Swee Chai also does not report seeing any such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM

Does anyone know how to get a hold of Frank Hamilton? It seems that someone in Iran named Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has hacked his Mudcat account and has been posting in this thread as Stringsinger.

AIPAC has surreptitiously placed a gag order on mainstream media's reporting on Israel.
Al Jazeera may be the only source left on TV to get to the truth.
The Netanyahu warmongers have infiltrated the US government and they are terrified of AIPAC. The so-called Jewish lobby exerts undue influence in the US.
This is the reason that reportage is not only inaccurate when it exists but mostly is absent from the air ways.

For this reason, we are unable to get the real facts on this issue and must resort to wild speculation and ad hominem arguments.

The evidence is here, though. Any attempt to land supplies to the Palestinians is shut off by Israeli attacks.

The evidence presented here by pro-Israeli fanatics has to be specious.

The Palestinian people are suffering at the hands of Israel. That is indisputable.

The danger is that Israel could trigger another world war unless brakes are put upon their expansion by the international community.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:56 PM

In regard to Stringsinger's comments, many people in North America and Europe, as well as in the Muslim world, still believe that the forgery known as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a true and accurate picture of Jews. Twenty first century European surveys, media coverage, cartoons, and direct verbal and physical attacks upon European Jews, Jewish Centers, and synagogues all document a rising hatred towards Jews and towards the only Jewish state (which is seen as controlling the world and the media). And, in 2012, a survey in the United States, found that 35 million American adults (or 15% of the population) believe that "Jews have too much power in the United States" and are "more willing to use shady practices." More than 70 million American adults believed that American Jews are "more loyal to Israel than to America." Sadly, Stringsinger's thinking is not all that unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 04:06 PM

Yes, even though he is Jewish and entitled to be an Israeli.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 03:22 AM

By the way, have just received your nastily smug P M message which appears to claim that you have actually said something here!
"We have reached the tennis end-game you kept announcing.
I leap the net to shake your hand."

"I have and can provide links if you want."
Do so - you have deliberately avoided doing so throughout this thread in order to hide the fact that all your "information!!!!" has come from a murderous human rights abusing regime.
Nurse's eye wwitness account.
You have her statement of what she saw, even to the extent of her witnessing Israeli bulldozers burying the, just as you have with everyone else who has provided evidence that is contrary to Israel's account.
She wrote:
"AFTER INTERROGATING US, THEY TOOK US ACROSS THE STREET TO THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES FORWARD COMMAND POST. IT WAS LOCATED IN A FIVE STORY BUILDING THAT OVERLOOKED THE SURROUNDED CAMPS we saw soldiers looking down on the camps with binoculars."
The building she was describing is the one used by the Israelis as a headquarters – the soldiers were able to witness every detail of the massacre and did nothing.
She was in the camp when the massacre commenced and was removed from the camp during the work of concealing the evidence by bulldozing the bodies into the ground and destroying the dwellings – she describes those bulldozers as having Israeli markings.
The account of the traumatised Israeli soldier who witnessed the massacre first hand (and whose testimony you have rejected out-of-hand) describes the Falangists as being armed with Israeli weapons far superior to those issued to Israeli troops.
You have totally ignored a far more detailed eye-witness account of the massacre; one which is infinitely more specific about the Israeli's involvement in the massacre - I didn't think for a moment that you would wish to comment on it.
Jim Carroll

Robert Fisk's account of teh aftermath – also linked:
"September 15, 1982 – Sharon orders shelling of refugee camps and with Israel support, Lebanese Christian militia enter camps and begin slaughter
As soon as the peacekeeping force was withdrawn, the then Israeli Defence Minister Ariel Sharon moved to root out some "2,000 terrorists" he claimed were still hiding in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila. After totally surrounding the refugee camps with tanks and soldiers, Sharon ordered the shelling of the camps and the bombardment continued throughout the afternoon and into the evening of 15 September leaving the "mopping-up" of the camps to the Lebanese right-wing Christian militia, known as the Phalangists. The next day, the Phalangists – armed and trained by the Israeli army – entered the camps and proceeded to massacre the unarmed civilians while Israel's General Yaron and his men watched the entire operations. More grotesquely, the Israeli army ensured there was no lull in the 36 hours of killings and illuminated the area with flares at night and tightened their cordon around the camps to make sure that no civilian could escape the terror that had been unleashed.
Israel's Kahan Commission of Inquiry "not intended for people who have a prejudice in favour of truth and honesty", including US Congress
Although Israel's Kahan Commission of Inquiry did not find any Israeli directly responsible, it did find that Sharon bore "personal responsibility" for "not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre" before sending the Phalangists into the camps. It, therefore, lamely recommended that the Israeli prime minister consider removing him from office. [14] Sharon resigned but remained as Minister without portfolio and joined two parliamentary commissions on defence and Lebanese affairs.
There is no doubt, as Chomsky points out "that the inquiry was not intended for people who have a prejudice in favour of truth and honesty", but it certainly gained support for Israel in the US Congress and among the public. [15]
Although International Commission found Israel directly responsible, no one was prosecuted
It took an International Commission of Inquiry headed by Sean MacBride to find that Israel was "directly responsible" because the camps were under its jurisdiction as an occupying power. [16] Yet, despite the UN describing the heinous operation as a "criminal massacre" and declaring it an act of genocide [17], no one was prosecuted.
2001 law suit filed in Belgium by survivors of massacre was blocked by US interference
http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/truth-about-israels-vile-role-in-1982-sabra-shatila-massacre-of-palestinians/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 04:01 AM

Sorry missed my summing up bfore I conceed the "march" to you!!!!
A recap on Israel's exact role in this massacre, researched, documented and proved beyond doubt.
Sharon ordered the shelling of these camps claiming there were 2,000 terrorists hiding there - none were ever discovered nor was there ever any evidence to the claim, before or after the massacres.
Israel provided transport to the site and gave access to the killers.
They also provided the killers with weapons.
They provided massive illumination so the killing could be carried out uninterrupted for three days and nights.
The refugee women were dragged into abandoned buildings and raped before having their throats cut.
Eyewitnesses described how some women being dragged off to be raped and slaughtered reached out to Israeli soldiers standing at arm's length, but where slapped aside, allowing their rapists and killers to indulge themselves.
Israeli forces watched the massacre for three days without making any attempt to stop it.
The killers were allowed to escape
The Israelis proceeded to destroy the evidence of the massacre of up to 3,500 unarmed people, men women and children; destroying buildings where the rapes and murders had taken place.
The bodies were buried in unmarked graves and then bulldozed over - the final touch was to erect a sports stadium over the graves, making it impossible even to do anything but guess how many unarmed and impoverished refugees died at the hands of the combined efforts of the Israelis and Phalangists.
Not a bad three night's work of a regime who claimed it was "nuffin' to do wiv us guv!!!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 04:08 AM

You have her statement of what she saw, even to the extent of her witnessing Israeli bulldozers burying the, just as you have with everyone else who has provided evidence that is contrary to Israel's account.
Yes we have her account.
She saw bulldozers clearing an area at the edge of the camps.
That is where defended and fortified buildings would have been.

The building she was describing is the one used by the Israelis as a headquarters – the soldiers were able to witness every detail of the massacre and did nothing.
No.
That building was a mile from the edges of the camp.
No-one could observe into the narrow maze of streets in the vast sprawling camps from there.

She herself had seen no signs of the civilian massacre from the top of her hospital deep within the camp, or during her long walk out.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 04:12 AM

All those accusations against IDF are disputed as propaganda.
The evidence is certainly not " proved beyond doubt."
Far from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 04:36 AM

""It took an International Commission of Inquiry headed by Sean MacBride to find that Israel was "directly responsible" because the camps were under its jurisdiction as an occupying power. Yet, despite the UN describing the heinous operation as a "criminal massacre" and declaring it an act of genocide, no one was prosecuted.""

Doesn't seem to be much doubt about that evidence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 04:45 AM

There is no dispute that " the camps were under its jurisdiction as an occupying power"

IDF thus does bear a shameful, but indirect responsibility for what happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM

"All those accusations against IDF are disputed as propaganda."
By the proven perpetrators of the crimes, unless you care to provide other evidence - you haven't so far.
"She saw bulldozers clearing an area at the edge of the camps."
Where does she say that ?
There is a mass of independent evidence which says the bulldozers were burting bodies and destroying houses "crime scenes".
Again, if you have evidence to the contrary, apart from claims of innocence from the convicted perpetrators, feel free to put it up.
"That is where defended and fortified buildings would have been."
The only defended and fortified building was the one used by the Israelis as a viewing platform for the massacre - the refugees had no such construction; if they had, 3,500 of them wouldn't have been butchered.
If you have evidence to the contrary, again, feel free, otherwise this is yet another invention of your own.
"No-one could observe into the narrow maze of streets in the vast sprawling camps from there"
The Israelis, as have all active troops, were equipped with high-powered state-of-the-art viewing equipment - they'd have to be totally myopic not to have noticed the systematic and brutal slaughter of 3,000 unarmed non-combatants - and you appear to have overlooked the reports of Israeli troops witnessing the rapes and killings at arms-length distances.
I appear to have missed the claim from anybody that the Israelis were unaware of what was going on - their claim was that they failed to stop it.
Are you privy to the layout of this camp in order to make this off-the-cuff claim - would be grateful if you'd let us all have one.
"She herself had seen no signs of the civilian massacre from the top of her hospital deep within the camp, or during her long walk out."
You've just claimed that shje was never in a position to witness any massacres.
"She was in the hospital throughout the massacres, and was unaware of them."

nowhere in her letter does she mention walks, long or short, nor have you mentioned before her viewing facility from the top of her hospital, this is pure invention on yourt part
On the contrary, tyou have insisted throughout that she was never in a position to see anything
Make up your ******* mind - she either was or she wasn't?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 05:44 AM

"She saw bulldozers clearing an area at the edge of the camps."
Where does she say that ?
"As we reached the end of the camp, the landscape had changed dramatically. Where homes had stood were piles of rubble. A yellow bulldozer was moving earth back and forth in an area that had been dug up and greatly enlarged."
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm

She also describes being marched from the Gaza Hospital all the way to the southern edge of the camp, and beyond.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM

her viewing facility from the top of her hospital, this is pure invention on yourt part
"That evening, a few other health-care workers and I climbed to one of the top floors of the hospital; it had been unused since the recent invasion. Because most of the walls had been bombed out, the view was unobstructed. We watched for a time as flares were shot into the air, brightly illuminating different parts of the camp. After each flare, rounds of light artillery fire were heard. I thought people were trying to shoot down the flares. Not a sound was heard from the camps except the noise of the flares being projected and the shots that followed. No screaming, no cries for help, no human sound, nothing."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 08:01 AM

There is a mass of independent evidence which says the bulldozers were burting bodies and destroying houses "crime scenes".
Neither Fisk nor Siegel reported any such thing, except for those buildings at the Southern edge of the camps.

"No-one could observe into the narrow maze of streets in the vast sprawling camps from there"
The Israelis, as have all active troops, were equipped with high-powered state-of-the-art viewing equipment - they'd have to be totally myopic not to have noticed the systematic and brutal slaughter
Not from a mile outside the camps Jim, but Ellen Siegel made the same mistake in believing it to be possible.

I hope I have answered all you points, but you were a bit incoherent in places.
No shame in that. It is an awful subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 08:52 AM

"As we reached the end of the camp......"
Will give you that one Keith I obviously should have checked what I had provided much earlier. My apologies - I hope it won't happen again.
However, what you failed to mention from your link:
"The IDF supplied the flares that lit the way for the murderers; it provided a bulldozer to help bury bodies in a mass grave and hide it with earth", so what the lady saw or didn't see changes nothing, by the information you have supplied.
"That evening, a few other health-care workers and I climbed to one of the top floors of the hospital; it had been unused since the recent invasion."
Will also concede that - I have been taking your claim that she was never in a position to witness anything as accurate, which still makes your statement that she was never in a position to witness the killings simply not true.
"She also describes being marched from the Gaza Hospital all the way to the southern edge of the camp, and beyond"
NO - The killing was all over so by then - as I said, your "long walks" were purely your own invention.
What is clear from all this is that what she did or did not see has never been explained, but whatever it was it was enough to persuade her to join the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign.
Her statement is somewhat irrelevant to both of us now as it has been superseded by that of Dr Ang Swee Chai - who witnessed the massacre close up.
I apologise for my misreading, and I assume you will do the same - no - it's me that's lying now; I seem to remember that you regard apologising as "grovelling".
This is some more of the information from the link provided:
"As the occupying force in Beirut, the IDF under the command of Ariel Sharon was responsible for the safety of the population. The IDF opened the refugee camps to a militia with a history of hatred and indiscriminate violence against Palestinians. It sealed off the refugee camps. It refused to allow terrified, pleading camp residents to escape through the exits of the camps. The IDF supplied the flares that lit the way for the murderers; it provided a bulldozer to help bury bodies in a mass grave and hide it with earth. And no official intervened when it became clear that innocent lives were being taken."
"but you were a bit incoherent in places."
You have provided no evidence whatever other than the denioals of the killers and have throughout deliberately attempted to mislead throughout, often by openly lying - nobody else here has done that .
You have provided with your own link, the facts of the burial of the bodies - you obviously don't read your own information.
You have yet to respond to the whole of the Fisk report and at no time have you even acknowledged the vivid eye-witness account from Dr Ang Swee Chai - a reminder which I will go on providing until you at least attempt to pass it off as 'prejudiced' as no doubt you will when you get round to it.
http://inminds.co.uk/from-beirut-to-jerusalem.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 09:00 AM

Whoops forgot to provide the reminder of your link to the realities of the massacre.
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 10:34 AM

And there's more
Jim Carroll

Remembering Sabra and Shatila and atoning
Ellen Siegel
The Daily Star, 10/4/03

......
I was again in Beirut in September 1982. This time I had volunteered as a nurse in a hospital in the Sabra refugee camp following Israel's invasion of Lebanon. It was on Rosh Hashanah that the Israeli Army, under the command of then-Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, stood watch over the camps of Sabra and Shatila as a grotesque massacre of Palestinian and Lebanese men, women and children by the Phalangists took place. The Israelis allowed the perpetrators to enter the camps, even using flares to light their way, prevented terrified camp residents from leaving, and lent the murderers a bulldozer to help bury the bodies.
After the medical workers were forced to leave the hospital, we were taken away and interrogated. Eventually we were turned over to the Israelis. I clearly remember watching as several soldiers prayed ¬ it was both the Sabbath and the first day of Rosh Hashanah. A soldier offered one of the nurses a piece of honey cake ¬ the symbol for a sweet year. In the end the massacre claimed over 800 lives. It also undermined the concept that the Israeli Army was highly moral and idealistic. The massacre at Sabra and Shatila will continue to follow Sharon for the rest of his days. Legal efforts to bring him to justice have so far failed.
Ellen Siegel, a registered nurse in Washington, is an active member of the Jewish peace movement. She wrote this commentary for THE DAILY STAR
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/October/4o/Remembering%20Sabra%20and%20Shatila%20and%20atoning%20Ellen%20Siegel.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM

And there's more
No. There is nothing more in that snippet.

Siegel was in the centre of the camp and was walked out, yet she was unaware of the massacre.
How much harder for the Israelis outside to know.

"The IDF supplied the flares that lit the way for the murderers; it provided a bulldozer to help bury bodies in a mass grave and hide it with earth", so what the lady saw or didn't see changes nothing, by the information you have supplied.
You do not need flares just to indiscriminately murder civilians.
Neither Fisk nor Siegel saw bodies being bulldozed.

What is clear from all this is that what she did or did not see has never been explained, but whatever it was it was enough to persuade her to join the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign.
Yes, although she was already strongly committed or she would not have been there.

Her statement is somewhat irrelevant to both of us now as it has been superseded by that of Dr Ang Swee Chai - who witnessed the massacre close up.
No. Ang Swee Chai was in the hospital with Siegel and marched out with her.
Neither of them saw anything of the massacres.

I seem to remember that you regard apologising as "grovelling".
I have posted several apologies.

You have provided with your own link, the facts of the burial of the bodies - you obviously don't read your own information.
No. Neither Siegel nor Fisk saw that.

You have yet to respond to the whole of the Fisk report and at no time have you even acknowledged the vivid eye-witness account from Dr Ang Swee Chai - a reminder which I will go on providing until you at least attempt to pass it off as 'prejudiced' as no doubt you will when you get round to it.
It is not at all clear how much of that is hers.
It is only taken from a book cover.
Much has been added, and like your other quote is propaganda.
The Jenin massacre is mentioned.
That never happened.
It was a lie to discredit Israel, but all the gullible Israel haters fell for it as they always do.
You yourself did, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 11:57 AM

,fontr color=red>"The Israelis allowed the perpetrators to enter the camps, even using flares to light their way, prevented terrified camp residents from leaving, and lent the murderers a bulldozer to help bury the bodies."
No links again - can we assume that you continue to maker it up.
Your stupidity on this thread is reaching the proportions of self-harm.
You stupidly and smugly attempt to close the thread leaving yourself wide open to once again being totally humiliated by tons of evidence which you continue to ignore.
I wished to leave this thread long ago; we're learning nothing from sombody who admits over and over again that he knows nothing of the subjects he insists on dominating an always has the last word on despite the fact he has been hammered into the ground.
I am not alone I suspect in refusing to stand be called a racist by a racist, a liar by a liar, gullible by somebody who admits he is only taking his information from the perpetrator of the crimes under discussion and an anti-Semite by somebody who describes wartime British anti Semitic fascism as "harmless", - and then claims some sort of victory at the end of it all.
You now continue to lie to the very end, all in support of huiman rights abuses, the mass murder of the poorest and most vulnerable section of an already impoverished people.... and every other sick crime you have and are continue to defend.
You will, I have no doubt, have the last word on this forum, but you will have said nothing - you are alone here; even the pro Israelis have steered well clear of you for fear of catching something nasty.
I also have no doubt that you will claim this as "a personal attack" because I am losing the argument" - that's how crass your behaviour is. If you do so, please challenge the points I have made, one by one if you wish, and I will be more than happy to provide examples of each one of them to prove my case - but there again - you don't do challenges, just as you don't do apologies.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM

Jim, all I am saying is that there is no hard evidence to contradict Israel's version.
Find some and I will accept it.

I have not lied or made anything up.
We have many issues going at once. Which requires clarifying?

"The Israelis allowed the perpetrators to enter the camps, even using flares to light their way, prevented terrified camp residents from leaving, and lent the murderers a bulldozer to help bury the bodies."

Yes they did send the militia in.
They fired flares, but the massacre would have happened without them.
Did they prevent residents leaving? Siege, the doctor and Fisk would not know first hand.
IDF did provide the bulldozers.
None of them saw bodies being buried. The militia may well have used them for that, but not right by the entrance I think.
Siegel and Fisk both saw the cleared houses at the Southern entrance.
Fisk thought they had been dynamited but Siegel saw the bulldozers working there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 07:12 PM

Well, "guest" (God, isn't it easy to exercise free speech under the umbrella of anonymity!), Stringsinger was actually stating facts. AIPAC and their ilk (but mainly AIPAC) are a relatively small but extremely influential lobby group (I prefer to refer to the "Israel lobby" rather than the "Jewish lobby" myself, not least for accuracy: there are quite a few right-wing Christian nutjobs in AIPAC).

The Israel lobby has so much influence over US politicians and the US media (not that the Murdochs need AIPAC anyway to further what amounts to the same agenda) that any politician who expresses criticism of Israel is toast. It's as simple as that. They will have funding withdrawn, they will be briefed against and their enemies will be bankrolled. It makes me laugh when yanks parrot on about their precious free speech. Yeah, say what you like, but criticise Israel and you will disappear. So no politician ever does. Not in any real sense. The media is just the same. You do not read or hear substantial criticism of Israel in the mainstream US media. You have to search for it online, and your sources, with the best will in the world, hardly enjoy the heft of the mainstream guys. The Israel lobby (along with the anti-global warming lobby) is the most undemocratic organisation it's possible to imagine, yet they shamelessly wield influence, in a so-called flagship democracy, way above their membership numbers. It's a disgrace, and it makes the political system in the US a laughing stock, but, of course, the yanks don't see this because they simply don't get to hear the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 04:15 AM

You do not read or hear substantial criticism of Israel in the mainstream US media

Mainly because it is very, very far from being the worst country on Earth, so it does not merit "substantial criticism."

You would like it to be singled out for criticism like it is here, and like it is where "You have to search for it online, and your sources, with the best will in the world, hardly enjoy the heft of the mainstream guys."
Quite!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 06:37 AM

"You do not read or hear substantial criticism of Israel in the mainstream US media"
Wonder if this has to do with the financial and political friends Israel has in high places - and, of course, those who would excuse atrocities and human rights abuses by claiming "it is very, very far from being the worst country on Earth"   

Re the murder of probably over 3,000 unarmed refugees faciltated by and participated in by Israel, headed by a later to be Israeli Prime Minister
"Although International Commission found Israel directly responsible, no one was prosecuted
It took an International Commission of Inquiry headed by Sean MacBride to find that Israel was "directly responsible" because the camps were under its jurisdiction as an occupying power. [16] Yet, despite the UN describing the heinous operation as a "criminal massacre" and declaring it an act of genocide [17], no one was prosecuted.
2001 law suit filed in Belgium by survivors of massacre was blocked by US interference"
http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/truth-about-israels-vile-role-in-1982-sabra-shatila-massacre-of-palestinians/
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 08:49 AM

Precisely that, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 09:02 AM

OK, Keith. What do you think of AIPAC then? Do you agree that a tiny, wealthy minority lobby group should wield all that influence over democratically-elected politicians?? Do you really think that's a good thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 09:57 AM

Veto usage at UN

US UN veto record
"The United States did not exercise its first veto until 1970, on a resolution regarding Southern Rhodesia, which is present-day Zimbabwe.
Since then, it has used its veto 79 times, with more than 40 related to issues in the Middle East.
The majority have been resolutions that have criticised the Israeli government or failed to condemn armed Palestinian factions in the same language as that being used for Israel.
It used its last veto to block a resolution that would term Israeli settlement activity in Palestinian territory "illegal" and demand a halt to all such actions.
Susan Rice, the US ambassador to the UN, said her country "reject[ed] in the strongest terms the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity", but the resolution "risk[ed] hardening the positions of both sides" and moving them away from negotiations."

UK – UN veto record
The United Kingdom has used its veto 31 times; the first in 1956 when it joined France in opposing a resolution ordering Israel to withdraw from Egypt.
Its most recent veto was in 1989, when it joined the United States and France in rejecting a resolution that criticised the US military intervention in Panama.
London tends to use its veto in conjunction with other countries, usually France and the US, although it has used a unilateral veto on seven occasions.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:05 AM

Jim, your link is to a blatant propaganda site.
" the inhumanity of the people who did Israel's bidding"
Lying propaganda.

Steve, there are many lobby groups.
What specifically is wrong with this one compared to all the others?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:08 AM

""You do not read or hear substantial criticism of Israel in the mainstream US media

Mainly because it is very, very far from being the worst country on Earth, so it does not merit "substantial criticism."

You would like it to be singled out for criticism like it is here, and like it is where "You have to search for it online, and your sources, with the best will in the world, hardly enjoy the heft of the mainstream guys.""

There you go again, Keith the perennial non sequitur.

The fact that it isn't "the worst in the world" is a totally invalid reason for saying it is above criticism.

If Israel were even one tenth as good as you would have us believe, it wouldn't need AIPAC or anybody else blocking news items about its activity. Neither would this, or similar, discussions exist.

It is precisely because the Israel apologist lobby works so damn hard to prevent any exposure of Israeli actions in the mainstream media, that it is obvious there is something they need to keep hidden.

It is because of this cover up that we ""have to search for it online, and our sources, with the best will in the world, hardly enjoy the heft of the mainstream guys"", but are the only sources who cannot be blackmailed into silence by AIPAC and for that reason are able to tell the truth.

In all the world, only Israel is allowed to acquit itself of all blame, simply based on its own denials, given against a mass of contrary evidence, much of it from Israeli citizens.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM

"What specifically is wrong with this one compared to all the others?"

Not hard to figure that one out.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:29 AM

Jim,
"Sabra and Shatila, part of a pattern of ethnic cleansing perpetrated under the Zionist plan to finally and forever extinguish Palestinian society and its people"
This is disgusting stuff.
Did you read it before linking to it?
Does this represent your view?
Please respond.

Don, no country is above criticism.
Many many countries more-so that Israel, so why do you and Steve expect to see "substantial criticism" of Israel in the press?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:34 AM

Don.
""have to search for it online, and our sources, with the best will in the world, hardly enjoy the heft of the mainstream guys"", but are the only sources who cannot be blackmailed into silence by AIPAC and for that reason are able to tell the truth.

Do you mean like that site Jim just linked too?
There are so many of them , it is like a global industry.
Would you like to see those lies in our mainstream media too?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:54 AM

A partial list of details of US veto record in support of Israel – 2 years out-of-date, I'm afraid!!!
BTW - these are official records, in this case from the US - anybody wishing to challenge them with figures of their own, please feel free.
Anybody wishing to support Israel's appalling human rights record by comparing it with that of other nations should be prepared to tell us whose record we should compare it with to make it acceptable – Kenneth Kaunda's, Ratco Mladic's, Papa Doc Duvalier's, Augusto Pinochet's, Rwanda's, Greece's under the colonel's ..... Hitler's or Stalin's maybe.
Would be interesting to see if they feel there should be a baseline or a ceiling in excusing war crimes.
Jim Carroll   

US Vetoes of Resolutions Against Israel, 1972-2011.
1   "…condemned Israel's attack against Southern against southern Lebanon and Syria…"
2   "…affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and equal protections…"
3   "…condemned Israel's air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians…"
4   "…called for self-determination of Palestinian people…"
5   "…deplored Israel's altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an international city by most world nations and the United Nations…"
6   "…affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people…"
7   "…endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people…"
8   "…demanded Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights…"
9   "…condemned Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations…"
10 "…condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem worshippers at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem…"
11 "…urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon…"
12 "…urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Beirut…"
13 "…urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation ofLebanon…"
14 "…condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace…"
15 "…deplores Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urges its withdrawal…"
16 "…condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli 'Iron Fist' policy of repression…"
17 "…denounced Israel's violation of human rights in the occupied territories…"
18 "…deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon…"
19 "…deplored Israel's activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy sites…"
20 "…condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan passenger airplane…"
21 "…deplored Israel's attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon…"
22 "…called on Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian intifada that violated the rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations…"
23 "…urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians, condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN auspices…"
24 "…condemned Israel's… incursion into Lebanon…"
25 "…deplored Israel's… commando raids on Lebanon…"
26 "…deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian intifada and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians…"
27 "…deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians…"
28 "…demanded that Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian intifada…"
29 "…called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands…"
30 "…confirmed that the expropriation of land by Israel, the occupying power, in East Jerusalem was invalid, and called upon the Government of Israel to rescind the expropriation orders and refrain from such action in the future."
31 "…called on Israel to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and responsibilities under the 1949 Geneva Convention" and to refrain from it's policy of settlement expansion which "alter facts on the ground pre-empting final status negotiations, and have negative implications for the Middle East Peace Process;"
32 "…demanded that Israel immediately cease construction of the Jabal Abu Ghneim settlement in East Jerusalem as well as other Israeli settlement activities in the occupied territories."
33 "… requested an unarmed UN Observer force to be sent to the West Bank to help protect Palestinian civilians."
34 "…requested the sending of a human rights monitoring force to the Occupied Territories and condemned all acts of terror, extra-judiciary killing, excessive use of force and house demolitions. Also expressed it determination to contribute to ending the violence and to prompting dialogue between Israeli and Palestinian sides.
35 "…condemned the killing by the Israeli occupying forces of
several UN employees" and demanded that Israel, complied fully with the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War" and "refrained from the excessive and disproportionate use of force in the Occupied Palestinian Territory;"
36 "…demanded that Israel ceased threats to deport or harm Yasser Arafat, the elected President of the Palestinian Authority;"
37 "…decides that the construction by Israel, the occupying Power, of a wall in the Occupied Territories departing from the armistice line of 1949 is illegal under relevant provisions of international law and must be ceased and reversed;"
38 "…condemned Israel for the extra-judicial executions that killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin along with six other Palestinians outside a mosque in Gaza City and calls for a complete cessation of extra-judicial executions by Israel"
39 "…condemned the military incursion into Gaza and demanded the immediate cessation of all military operations in the area of Northern Gaza and the withdrawal of the Israeli occupying forces from that area;
40 "…condemned all acts of violence, terror and destruction during the Gaza conflict including rocket attacks by Hamas into Israel and the military assault being carried out by Israel."
41 "…called upon the Palestinian Authority to take immediate and sustained action to bring an end to violence, including the firing of rockets on Israeli territory. Called upon Israel to immediately cease its military operations within Gaza and to immediately withdraw its forces to to positions prior to 28 June 2006, and expressed grave concern about the dire humanitarian situation of the Palestinian people."
declared Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories were illegal and a "major obstacle to the achievement of a just, lasting and comprehensive peace".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 11:06 AM

Don, no country is above criticism.
Many many countries more-so that Israel, so why do you and Steve expect to see "substantial criticism" of Israel in the press?

The point is that substantial criticism of Israel in the press, especially in the US, is actively discouraged. This is not a level playing field here, Keith. The powerful Israel lobby ensures that criticism is muted at best and absent at worst, and not only in the press but in public life in general. There are millions of people like you the western world over who have been hoodwinked into thinking that Israel is just an ordinary democracy going about things in a decent way, with some troublesome Islamic neighbours getting in the way at times. That is the picture presented by a media that is either biased (aka Murdoch et al.) or suppressed by the Israel lobby. We want to hear the unvarnished truth, and we don't get it. The difference between you and those of us who oppose you is that you don't see this and we do. Actually, Keith, you don't want to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 11:10 AM

"Sabra and Shatila, part of a pattern of ethnic cleansing perpetrated under the Zionist plan to finally and forever extinguish Palestinian society and its people"
I've made clear that I believe the systematic slaughter of civilians and the fascist manipulation of nomadic communities and the forcible removal to or abandoning those already forced to live on toxic sites,is comparable to ethnic cleansing - in the case of the Bedouins in Israel is comparable to ethnic cleansing.
I've also claimed the same of the policies towards Travellers in Britain and Ireland - go and look at the records of all of these countries.
Sabra and Shatila - the cold-blooded massacre of 3,000 refugees facilitated by Israel - how else can it be described?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 11:57 AM

A final word to Keith.
I produced first the number of times that the US has vetoed criticisms on Israel in the US, following it with the details of some of those vetoes.
Unless my eyesight has completely gone walkabout, I can't find a link to either list nor details; correct me if I'm wrong.
The sites I got those particular items of information from contain nothing like the quote you gave us, in fact they were both simply lists, nothing more.
As you have decided not to back up your own 'information' (sic), and have made it a common practice to attack the source rather than disprove the information, as you have attempted rather disastrously here, I have decided to take up your own practice of not including links in order not to be diverted from the issue in hand.
If you dispute the information provided, please do so with facts and figures rather than divertive tactics.
The details I have offered up are available on dozens of sites, including the UN's own.
I was grateful for your having given me the opportunity to air my views on the ethnic cleansing of Travellers (once more); it is something very dear to my heart; but unless you would like to prove that I got my information from the site you either dug out at random or invented, please be good enough to withdraw your accusation (chance would be a fine thing!!!!)
I have also decided, in the interests of free and honest discussion, no longer to follow your red-herrings and diversions, and so have no intention of dropping into any more of your black holes and cess pits, so I would be ever so grateful if you would concentrate your comments to what I have to say rather than to me.
As far as our little tete-a-tetes are concerned – over and out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 01:30 PM

As you have decided not to back up your own 'information' (sic)

Just give me an example Jim.
I promise to substantiate or withdraw.
Or is it just more empty bluster because you have nothing else?

Your post with a link contained no facts or information at all!
Just propaganda from a site full of vicious, hate filled, hate fomenting lies.
Does it represent your views Jim?

Israel was responsible for parts of Lebanon in 1982.
They did "facilitate" a Lebanese Arab militia entering the camps.
They deny knowing a massacre would happen, or knowing it was happening, and they did stop it.
A denial itself is worth nothing, but there is no evidence to show that IDF did know either of those things.

I am deeply suspicious of "witnesses" who only appeared long after the event, and remind you that witnesses were produced to the "massacre" at Jenin, the dumping of bodies from Marmara, the killing of a young Gazan by border guards who turned out not to be dead but wounded by Gazans, faked casualties, etc., etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 01:39 PM

Steve, all lobby groups aim to influence the media and public life in general.
Are you against them all or just this one?
Why is it singled out?

And, how do you know what the true truth is, and that you are not getting it?
You would rather believe sites like Jim's.
I would value your opinion of that site Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 09:21 PM

I will give my opinion of whatever I like. Yes, I do single out AIPAC (unlike most lily-livered yanks, who appear to be scared even to type the acronym. That's how bad it is). Of course lobby groups are, in general, perfectly valid. But we are not talking about most lobby groups here. We are talking about a very sinister, relatively small group of people, mostly right-wing, mostly very wealthy, who, conspiratorially, have decided that a good way of helping Israel is to exert improper influence. Not honest-to-goodness publicity, etc., but briefing against politicians who dare to open their mouths against Israel, promoting their political enemies and ensuring that they lose funding and get smeared in any way possible. We are not talking here about a bunch of Guardian-reading do-gooders turning up at Downing Street with a big petition, are we. So yes, this extreme right-wing, extremely undemocratic organisation deserve to be singled out. No one voted for AIPAC yet they effectively run a very large part of US foreign policy. But we can hardly be surprised that you think all that's hunkydory. After all, you also think that Israel is a bastion of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 03:45 AM

"You would rather believe sites like Jim's."
This is trolling at its worst.
This comedian has been given many dozens of examples of Israeli atrocities which he has rejected as biased, anti-Semitic and lying
I have not given a source yet he keeps up his sniding lies.
I HAVE NOT GIVEN A SITE AND WHATEVER ONE HE HAS FOUND OR INVENTED BEARS ANY RELATIONSHIP TO THE ONE I USED, WHICH DOES NOT CONTAIN ANYTHING RESEMBLING HIS WORDING - THEY ARE OFFICIAL UN FIGURES AND ARE AVAILABLE ON DOZENS OF SITES, INCLUDING THE UN'S OWN SITE WHICH HE WOULD NO DOUBT DESCRIBE AS "LYING AND ANTISEMITIC ANYWAY
This is a deliberate attempt to undermine evidence he has been given and unless he explains himself or withdraw his accusation I will report him.
Nobody should be allowed to deliberately wreck a discussion and undermine other members contributions by openly lying.
This is an overview dated September/October 1993 which outlines the US's continued policy of protecting Israel from criticism for its terrorist policy:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html
And this is the record of US vetoes by the US from The Jewish Virtual library - a supporter of Israeli policies and - in its own description   
"A division of the American Israeli Co-operative Enterprise" - from the horses mouth, so to speak.
It is headed "U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel 1972-2011)".
"You would rather believe sites like Jim's. I would value your opinion of that site Steve."
I have become used to Keith's persistent lying on this forum - but it is beyond a joke for him to attempt to involve others in these lies.
LET IT STOP NOW - IT IS NOT ONLY AN INSULT TO THOSE INVOLVED IN THIS DISCUSSION BUT IT TOTALLY DEBASES THE VALUE OF THIS FORUM AS A PLACE OF OPEN, HONEST DISCUSSION.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 03:53 AM

So you believe in a global Jewish conspiracy of secrecy?
After all, you also think that Israel is a bastion of democracy.
Is it not a democracy, and the only one in the region?

We want to hear the unvarnished truth, and we don't get it.
Have the Jews also silenced The Guardian, the BBC, .....?
That is the only way I could have been hoodwinked and you deprived of the truth.
Is that what you believe?
I would also value your view of Jim's site.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 04:02 AM

Last post was to Steve.
Jim.

This comedian has been given many dozens of examples of Israeli atrocities which he has rejected as biased, anti-Semitic and lying

Not true Jim, but the this site you linked to yesterday is an antisemetic propaganda site.
http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/truth-about-israels-vile-role-in-1982-sabra-shatila-massacre-of-palestinians/
Likewise Electronic Intifada. The clue is in the name.
I also did object to your putting up some random bloke's blog as a source of reliable information.

So be specific.
Which statements of mine are unsupported?
Which legitimate site have I rubbished?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 04:07 AM

Condemnation of the US use of the veto in favour of Israeli human rights offences and atrocities run into the 100s – take a look.
This is a small selection of generalised comments on the US use of the veto.
Jim Carroll
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2000.htm
http://rense.com/general48/isr.htm
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/USveto.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 04:20 AM

You continue to call me a liar - I have never seen the site you name and I would have to be off my head to use such a site with your 'rejection' record.
I defy you to to show in any way why my lists could not have come from any one of the hundreds available on the subject.
My figures were drawn from direct UN sources and an American site.
You have described the Guardian, the UN, Human Rights Watch, BBC reports, general newspaper reports - including the Daily Mail......... the list is endless - of being liars, baised, obscure journals
I realise it is not your practice to read what others put up, but I suggest you google 'US veto supporting Israel' to see how many times these lists have been made available.
Do you really want to continue fucking up this forum by debasing it the way you have?
It really isn't making your case, but it has provided us with a perfect example of an Israeli 'atrocity denier'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM

You have described the Guardian, the UN, Human Rights Watch, BBC reports, general newspaper reports - including the Daily Mail......... the list is endless - of being liars, baised, obscure journals
Not true Jim, but I did link to a site that suggested Pheobe Greenwood of the Guardian was biased.

I have not challenged your list of vetoes.
It is accurate.
There are so many because General Council singles out Israel for attack as if it was the worse country in the world. No other country comes even close to the number of condemnations Israel gets.

I have never seen the site you name and I would have to be off my head to use such a site with your 'rejection' record.
: 09 Mar 13 - 06:37 AM
......
......
http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/truth-about-israels-vile-role-in-1982-sabra-shatila-massacre-of-palestinians/
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:17 AM

I would have to be off my head to use such a site
I fear that you actually are losing it Jim.
Time to give it a rest?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:26 AM

I believed you to be referring to the list of vetoes I supplied which you have yet to refer to - you did not make that clear.
The site I did refer you to drew all its information from reliable sources - as you have chosen to only present the information out of context (eg - edited it) I give you sections of the article references to provide the context you have deliberately removed.
Having persistently admitted that you are drawing all your information from pro Israeli sites, and only presenting Israel's defence of its war crimes - are you really suggesting that the rest of us have no right to take quotes from wherever we choose
This is a non-aligned world-wide campaigning site which involves itself in all types and levels of issues. The sources used are all, as far as I can see, respectably accredited ones
How ******* dare you attempt to censor such a site when you have chosen to select only that favourable to mass murderers and human rights abusers - challenge the facts provided, not the source of those facts
You have just claimed you have not junked postings - you have done so throughout and are doing so now.
If you have any factual proof that the information here is factually wrong or biased, feel free to provide evidence of your own
Jim Carroll

Truth about Israel's vile role in 1982 Sabra-Shatila massacre of Palestinians
Leave a reply
Facts need testimony to be remembered

No 570 Posted by fw September 18, 2012

2001 law suit filed in Belgium by survivors of massacre was blocked by US interference

"It was not until 2001 that a law suit was filed in Belgium by the survivors of the massacre and relatives of the victims against Sharon alleging his personal responsibility. However, the court did not allow for "universal jurisdiction" – a principle which was intended to remove safe havens for war criminals and allow their prosecution across states. The case was won on appeal and the trial allowed to proceed, but without Sharon who by then was prime minister of Israel and had immunity. US interference led to the Belgian Parliament gutting the universal jurisdiction law and by the time the International Criminal Court was established in The Hague the following year, the perpetrators of the Sabra and Shatila massacre could no longer be tried because its terms of reference did not allow it to hear cases of war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide pre-dating 1 July 2002. Neither Sharon nor those who carried out the massacres have ever been punished for their horrendous crimes."

"This post begins with an 8:39-minute video featuring eye-witness accounts of the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacre reported by two journalists, Briton Robert Fisk and Norwegian Odd Karsten Tveit.
Following the video, is a Counterpunch article by Sonja Karkar, founder co-founder and editor of the website http://www.australiansforpalestine.com, an advocacy group that provides a voice for Palestine at all levels of Australian society.
Sabra & Shatila massacre of Palestinians-Eyewitness (Robert Fisk & Odd Karsten Tveit)
Uploaded by VisualJustice on Jan 9, 2011– The Massacre of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon by the Christian Lebanese Phalangists In collaboration with Israel.
The Massacre at Sabra and Shatila, Thirty Years Later: A Never-Ending Horror Story, by Sonja Karkar, Counterpunch. Weekend Edition September 16-18, 2012
The 30th anniversary of a slaughter staged by the Israeli government that has gone unpunished
It happened thirty years ago – 16 September 1982. A massacre so awful that people who know about it cannot forget it. The photos are gruesome reminders – charred, decapitated, indecently violated corpses, the smell of rotting flesh, still as foul to those who remember it as when they were recoiling from it all those years ago. For the victims and the handful of survivors, it was a 36-hour holocaust without mercy. It was deliberate, it was planned and it was overseen. But to this day, the killers have gone unpunished.
A ghastly reminder of Israeli's ruthless inhumanity in an indifferent world
Sabra and Shatila – two Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon – were the theatres for this staged slaughter. The former is no longer there and the other is a ghostly and ghastly reminder of man's inhumanity to men, women and children – more specifically, Israel's inhumanity, the inhumanity of the people who did Israel's bidding and the world's inhumanity for pretending it was of no consequence. There were international witnesses – doctors, nurses, journalists – who saw the macabre scenes and have tried to tell the world in vain ever since.
Each act was barbarous enough on its own to warrant fear and loathing. It was human savagery at its worst and Dr Ang Swee Chai was an eye witness as she worked with the Palestinian Red Crescent Society on the dying and the wounded amongst the dead. What she saw was so unimaginable that the atrocities committed need to be separated from each other to even begin comprehending the viciousness of the crimes. [1]
People Tortured. Blackened bodies smelling of roasted flesh from the power shocks that had convulsed their bodies before their hearts gave out – the electric wires still tied around their lifeless limbs
People with gouged out eye sockets. Faces unrecognizable with the gaping holes that had plunged them into darkness before their lives were thankfully ended.
Women raped. Not once – but two, three, four times – horribly violated, their legs shamelessly ripped apart with not even the cover of clothing to preserve their dignity at the moment of death.
Children dynamited alive. So many body parts ripped from their tiny torsos, so hard to know to whom they belonged – just mounds of bloodied limbs amongst the tousled heads of children in pools of blood.
Families executed. Blood, blood and more blood sprayed on the walls of homes where whole families had been axed to death in a frenzy or lined up for a more orderly execution.
There were also journalists who were there in the aftermath and who had equally gruesome stories to tell, none of which made the sort of screaming front page headlines that should have caused lawmakers to demand immediate answers. What they saw led them to write shell-shocked accounts that have vanished now into the archives, but are no less disturbing now. These accounts too need to be individually absorbed, lest they be lumped together as just the collective dead rather than the systematic torture and killing of individual, innocent human beings.
Women gunned down while cooking in their kitchens. [2] The headless body of a baby in diapers lying next to two dead women. [3] An infant, its tiny legs streaked with blood, shot in the back by a single bullet. [4]   Slaughtered babies, their bodies blackened as they decomposed, tossed into rubbish heaps together with Israeli army equipment and empty bottles of whiskey. [5] An old man castrated, with flies thick upon his torn intestines. [6] Children with their throats slashed. [7] Mounds of rotting corpses bloated in the heat – young boys all shot at point-blank range. [8]

And most numbing of all are the recollections of the survivors whose experiences were so shockingly traumatic that to recall them must have been painful beyond all imaginings. One survivor, Nohad Srour, 35 said:
"I was carrying my one year-old baby sister and she was yelling "Mama! Mama!" Then suddenly nothing. I looked at her and her brain had fallen out of her head and down my arm. I looked at the man who shot us. I'll never forget his face. Then I felt two bullets pierce my shoulder and finger. I fell. I didn't lose consciousness, but I pretended to be dead." [9]
The statistics of those killed vary, but even according to the Israeli military, the official count was 700 people killed while Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk put the figure at 3,500. [10] The Palestinian Red Crescent Society put the number killed at over 2,000. [11] Regardless of the numbers, they would not and could not mitigate what are clear crimes against humanity.

Is it any surprise that the anniversaries of the massacre are ignored by Western governments and mainstream media? They "prefer" not to remember.

Fifteen years later, Robert Fisk, the journalist who had been one of the first on the scene, said:

"Had Palestinians massacred 2,000 Israelis 15 years ago, would anyone doubt that the world's press and television would be remembering so terrible a deed this morning? Yet this week, not a single newspaper in the United States – or Britain for that matter – has even mentioned the anniversary of Sabra and Shatila."[12]
Thirty years later it is no different.
Events leading up to the massacre –
June 1982 – Israel begins assault on Beirut's Palestinian civilian population
What happened must be set against the background of a Lebanon that had been invaded by the Israeli army only months earlier, supposedly in 'retaliation' for the attempted assassination of the Israeli Ambassador in London on 4 June 1982. Israel attributed the attempt to Arafat's Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) then resident in Beirut. In reality, it was a rival militant group headed by Abu Nidal. Israel wanted to oust the PLO from Lebanon altogether and on 6 June 1982, Israel began its devastating assault on the Lebanese and Palestinian civilian population in the southern part of Lebanon. Lebanese government casualty figures numbered the dead at around 19,000 with some 30,000 wounded, but these numbers are hardly accurate because of the mass graves and other bodies lost in the rubble. [13]
September 1, 1982 – PLO surrender arms and quit Beirut; US guarantee protection for refugees left behind
By 1 September, a cease-fire had been mediated by United States envoy Philip Habib, and Arafat and his men surrendered their weapons and were evacuated from Beirut with guarantees by the US that the civilians left behind in the camps would be protected by a multinational peacekeeping force. That guarantee was not kept and the vacuum then created, paved the way for the atrocities that followed.

September 15, 1982 – Sharon orders shelling of refugee camps and with Israel support, Lebanese Christian militia enter camps and begin slaughter

As soon as the peacekeeping force was withdrawn, the then Israeli Defence Minister Ariel Sharon moved to root out some "2,000 terrorists" he claimed were still hiding in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila. After totally surrounding the refugee camps with tanks and soldiers, Sharon ordered the shelling of the camps and the bombardment continued throughout the afternoon and into the evening of 15 September leaving the "mopping-up" of the camps to the Lebanese right-wing Christian militia, known as the Phalangists. The next day, the Phalangists – armed and trained by the Israeli army – entered the camps and proceeded to massacre the unarmed civilians while Israel's General Yaron and his men watched the entire operations. More grotesquely, the Israeli army ensured there was no lull in the 36 hours of killings and illuminated the area with flares at night and tightened their cordon around the camps to make sure that no civilian could escape the terror that had been unleashed.
Israel's Kahan Commission of Inquiry "not intended for people who have a prejudice in favour of truth and honesty", including US Congress
Although Israel's Kahan Commission of Inquiry did not find any Israeli directly responsible, it did find that Sharon bore "personal responsibility" for "not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre" before sending the Phalangists into the camps. It, therefore, lamely recommended that the Israeli prime minister consider removing him from office. [14] Sharon resigned but remained as Minister without portfolio and joined two parliamentary commissions on defence and Lebanese affairs. There is no doubt, as Chomsky points out "that the inquiry was not intended for people who have a prejudice in favour of truth and honesty", but it certainly gained support for Israel in the US Congress and among the public. [15]
Although International Commission found Israel directly responsible, no one was prosecuted

It took an International Commission of Inquiry headed by Sean MacBride to find that Israel was "directly responsible" because the camps were under its jurisdiction as an occupying power. [16] Yet, despite the UN describing the heinous operation as a "criminal massacre" and declaring it an act of genocide [17], no one was prosecuted.
2001 law suit filed in Belgium by survivors of massacre was blocked by US interference
It was not until 2001 that a law suit was filed in Belgium by the survivors of the massacre and relatives of the victims against Sharon alleging his personal responsibility. However, the court did not allow for "universal jurisdiction" – a principle which was intended to remove safe havens for war criminals and allow their prosecution across states. The case was won on appeal and the trial allowed to proceed, but without Sharon who by then was prime minister of Israel and had immunity. US interference led to the Belgian Parliament gutting the universal jurisdiction law and by the time the International Criminal Court was established in The Hague the following year, the perpetrators of the Sabra and Shatila massacre could no longer be tried because its terms of reference did not allow it to hear cases of war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide pre-dating 1 July 2002. Neither Sharon nor those who carried out the massacres have ever been punished for their horrendous crimes.
Why do Palestinians continue to be treated as a people somehow unworthy of justice?
The length of time since these acts were carried out should be no impediment to exposing the truth. More than 60 years after the Nazi atrocities against the Jews in Europe, the world still mourns and remembers and erects monuments and museums to that violent holocaust.   How they are done, to whom they are done and to how many does not make the crimes any more or less heinous. They can never be justified even on the strength of one state's rationale that another people ought to be punished, or worse still, are simply inferior or worthless beings. It should lead all of us to question on whose judgment are such decisions made and how can we possibly justify such crimes at all?

Sabra and Shatila, part of a pattern of ethnic cleansing perpetrated under the Zionist plan to finally and forever extinguish Palestinian society and its people
"The atrocities committed in the camps of Sabra and Shatila should be put in the context of an ongoing genocide against the Palestinian people. The MacBride report found that these atrocities "were not inconsistent with wider Israeli intentions to destroy Palestinian political will and cultural identity." [17] Since Deir Yassin [massacre] and the other massacres of 1948, those who survived have joined hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fleeing a litany of massacres committed in 1953, 1967, and the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, and the killing continues today. The most recent being the 2008-2009 Gaza massacre – that 3 week merciless onslaught, a festering sore without relief as the people are further punished by an impossible siege that denies them their most basic rights."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:58 AM

If you have any factual proof that the information here is factually wrong or biased
"Sabra and Shatila, part of a pattern of ethnic cleansing perpetrated under the Zionist plan to finally and forever extinguish Palestinian society and its people"

Israel was responsible for parts of Lebanon in 1982.
They did "facilitate" a Lebanese Arab militia entering the camps.
They deny knowing a massacre would happen, or knowing it was happening, and they did stop it.
A denial itself is worth nothing, but there is no evidence to show that IDF did know either of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM

Once again you disregard the facts by presenting ONLY THE ISRAELI DENIAL
They bombarded the camps beforehand, provided transport, granted access to the killers, provided illumination, supplied the arms, stood by (sometimes at arms-length) while the rapes torture and slaughter went on, sometimes refusing requests for help by backhanding the victims away, they helped bury the bodies, they allowed the killers to escape then they made the evidence of the massacre inaccessible by building a sports stadium over the mass graves.
They stood by for three days and watched and they only stopped it when it had all but run its course.
This has been proved beyond any shadow of doubt and it is only atrocity deniers like yourself say claim that Israel were innocent of these crimes against humanity. These events were eye-witnessed, by nurses and by Israeli soldiers who have since testified to the events - some of these soldiers were dismissed from the army - all these accounts you have dismissed as "unreliable" or lying.
The only independent inquiry to be held over the matter found Israel and particularly later-to-be prime Minister Sharon totally guilty of its part in this massacre - this is one of your other dismissals out of hand.
The only reason Israel was not condemned as a war criminal by the United Nations was that the US vetoed the motion.
As you rightly say "A denial itself is worth nothing," but the evidence more than proves Israel's guilt and they have provided nothing to counteract that evidence - on the contrary, they elected the leader of the massacre Prime Minister.
This event, the constant seizing of territory, the forcible eviction to a poisonous site of whole communities, the blockading and delaying of food, medical supplies, the bringing about of malnutrition in a significant percentage of Palestinian children, the blocking off of farmers with a Berlin-type wall, the invasions, slaughter of civilians, destruction of hospitals, schools and apartment, the use of chemicals on Palestinians and Bedouins, the segregation of public transport.... are all indications of ethnic cleansing of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, Bedouin.... anybody non-Jewish.
From now on address your explaining of all these crimes to the assembled company and not to me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 08:19 AM

This has been proved beyond any shadow of doubt
I refute that Jim.
I have shown how the nurse's, doctor's and journalist's accounts of those events show no such thing.
Nor did the testimony of the soldiers who came forward at the time.

I acknowledge that many claiming to be witnesses came forward long after, but I regard them as unreliable.

There is no evidence that IDF knew what was to happen.
There is no evidence that they observed it, and good evidence that they could not have.
The flares would not have assisted the massacre which would have happened with or without them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 08:25 AM

The only independent inquiry to be held over the matter found Israel and particularly later-to-be prime Minister Sharon totally guilty of its part in this massacre - this is one of your other dismissals out of hand.

No.
It decided that Israel was responsible, but only because it was the occupying power at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 09:12 AM

UN vetos by the US are directly attributable to pressure from AIPAC. That is just another of their ways of circumventing democracy. Any US politician who supports a resolution (by refusing the veto) critical of Israel is toast. You will be briefed against, your enemies will be bankrolled and you may lose funding. AIPAC has a stranglehold on US foreign policy in the middle east, yet no-one ever voted AIPAC in. AIPAC is so powerful in its influence that there is never open debate about Israel in Congress. You're going to tell me that there's nothing to discuss, eh, Keith? Ha bloody ha! To all intents and purposes, AIPAC is, de facto, an agent of the Israeli government.

So you believe in a global Jewish conspiracy of secrecy?

God, how much more disgusting can you get, Keith? Let's clear up one or two things here. If I want to write about Jews, I will use the word Jews. I have already said that AIPAC contains a good proportion of Christian fundamentalists. It is not all Jews. I have also said perfectly clearly that I do not say "Jewish lobby". I have chosen to use the expression "Israel lobby" as I believe that is a fair and accurate way of characterising it. Finally, AIPAC is an American organisation, not a global one. The first letter of the acronym stands for "American", Keith.
   
Is it not a democracy, and the only one in the region?

Why are you asking me? Why don't you ask the imprisoned million and a half Gazans, the families divided by an apartheid wall, the kids with their feet blown off by cluster bomblets in Lebanon, the Arabs kicked off their land for settlements, the Arabs kept needlessly and capriciously at road-blocks for three days preventing them from seeing their families, the ethnically-cleansed Bedouins in the Negev, the parents of kids shot by IDF soldiers for being stupid enough to play near the border? You're asking the wrong man! of course, were you to ask the right people you just might, at long last, start to feel just a tad uncomfortable about the regime you so cosily defend.   

We want to hear the unvarnished truth, and we don't get it.
Have the Jews also silenced The Guardian, the BBC, .....?

This constant reference of yours to "the Jews" marks you out as sick in the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM

AIPAC are not Israelis.
As you say, the A stands for American.
American Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 09:56 AM

There are millions of people like you the western world over who have been hoodwinked into thinking that Israel is just an ordinary democracy going about things in a decent way, with some troublesome Islamic neighbours getting in the way at times. That is the picture presented by a media that is either biased (aka Murdoch et al.) or suppressed by the Israel lobby. We want to hear the unvarnished truth, and we don't get it

So we are prevented from hearing the "truth."
Who do you blame for that Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM

""Many many countries more-so that Israel, so why do you and Steve expect to see "substantial criticism" of Israel in the press?""

Because we see substantial coverage of those other countries' bad behaviour, and nothing but support and cover up for everyhing Israel does.

You should know you've been actively involved in doing that for the whole of this and other threaads.

We have to trawl the internet to find out details of Israel's actions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 10:06 AM

I did not say that AIPAC were Israelis, chump. They are Americans, operating in America in order to skew American foreign policy in the middle east (and not just in favour of Israel: they have plenty to say currently about Iran, for example) I said that, de facto, they are agents of the Israeli regime. I have said absolutely nothing that a reasonable person could interpret as meaning that AIPAC are Israelis. All this is readily discernible even from reading AIPAC's website where they are perfectly open about their aims. I also informed you that AIPAC is not exclusively Jewish. You appear to think that repeating stupid remarks will make them less stupid.

http://forward.com/articles/153025/aipac-not-just-for-jews-anymore/?p=all

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 10:22 AM

We have to trawl the internet to find out details of Israel's actions.
So you both think that British media is prevented from telling the truth about Israel.
By some secretive cabal, presumably.

Steve if you believe all that stuff you just posted about Israel is true, it is you who have been hoodwinked, by all the nasty propaganda on those sites like Jim's that you believe tell the truth.

700.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 11:05 AM

"There is no evidence that IDF knew what was to happen."
This is a blatant lie -there have been presented dozens of links on this thread of evidence containing reports not only of the Israelis knowing whet would happen, but of the authorities planning in advance the slaughter.
Have just finished a remarkable book (free download) entitled SABRA
& CHATILA - INQUIRY INTO A MASSACRE by Amnon Kapeliouk (a Jerusalem resident and a journalist for Le Monde, among other publications.
It has been obvious from the beginning of this discussion that all our resident fanatic wants is a blanket acceptance that "Israel didn't do it"
He continues to offer no evidence, but just unlinked denials of Israel's proven guilt
Jim Carroll   

Amnon Kapeliouk was born in Jerusalem. His father, Menachem, was a renowned Arabic scholar. Kapeliouk studied at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He held a PhD degree in Oriental Studies from Sorbonne University. His doctorate was on Israel's Christian Arab community. He began writing for the Israeli daily Al HaMishmar in the 1950s" and was a Journalist for Le Monde
He was a resident of Jerusalem until his death.
Quotes from his remarkable book entitled SABRA & CHATILA, INQUIRY INTO A MASSACRE by Amnon Kapeliouk, by far the most comprehensive account of the massacre.



Lieutenant Avi Grabowski, deputy commander of a tank company testified before the Kahan Commission that he witnessed the Phalangists kill civilians including women and children. Grabowski told the Commission that he confronted a Phalangist about killing pregnant women. The Phalangist answered that "pregnant women will give birth to terrorists." Israeli soldiers who reported Phalangist atrocities against civilians to their superiors were ordered not to interfere with what was happening in the camps and not to enter the area. When Grabowski reported what he saw to his superiors, his tank crew quoted the battalion commander saying: "We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere." (Final Report, p. 35).

"Access to the camp was blocked by Israeli soldiers, who repeatedly ordered fleeing refugees to turn back. The most striking example was a group of 500 refugees who found shelter within the walls of Gaza Hospital in Sabra. During the afternoon, the crowd made their escape when they learned that the militiamen were killing, injuring, and raping everyone in the hospitals. Brandishing white flags, the hapless crowd reached Corniche el-Mazra'a, the road that intersects the capital from east to west. They were then stopped by Israeli soldiers. A spokesman for the group explained to the soldiers that Sa'ad Haddad's men were murdering civilians. Nevertheless, they were ordered to return to the camp. When they hesitated, an Israeli tank chased the people a few hundred feet back toward the camps." (New York Times, September 26, 1982)."

"At daybreak, Israeli officers and soldiers stood at their observation post and watched with binoculars what was happening inside the Shatila camp. They observed the piles of bodies and the men being lined up for execution. Soldiers from an armored unit stationed 100 meters from the camp, and once commanded by Colonel Eli Geva prior to his resignation, stated that they were able to clearly witness the execution of civilians by the militiamen that Friday morning. Their report was dispatched to senior officers who received identical accounts from other Israeli soldiers and officers stationed near the camps. Israeli soldiers also confirmed that they heard screaming refugees being slaughtered while attempting to save their own lives. The Israelis were also briefed by the Phalangists themselves, who occasionally sought food and fresh water from the encampments and roadblocks set up by the Israeli Army around Shatila. They described "combat" developments inside the camps, making no attempt to conceal the fact "that there were also civilians among the dead."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 12:33 PM

So you both think that British media is prevented from telling the truth about Israel.

The media owned by ardently pro-Israel Murdoch requires no pressure at all to support Israel. There is evidence that an arrogant UK Israel lobby group, BICOM, has improperly influenced the output Of BBC news and Sky News. http://www.presstv.ir/detail/209412.html This stuff is all over the web, Keith. Let's not forget that all three main parties have powerful Friends Of Israel groups of MPs under their wing. No-one is saying that the situation here is a bad as it is in the US. But there is undeniable (though I know you'd deny that red is red) pressure put on our media nonetheless. Try this:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text

From the above:

However, many people just don't want to speak out about the Israel lobby. So making our film at times felt like an impossible task. Privately we would be met with great enthusiasm and support. Everyone had a story to tell, it seemed. Once the subject of doing an interview was raised the tone changed; "Anything at all I can do to help…" quickly became "Well, obviously I couldn't." or "It wouldn't be appropriate for me to."
Many people who privately voiced concerns about the influence of the lobby simply felt they had too much to lose by confronting it. One national newspaper editor told us, "that's one lobby I've never dared to take on." From MPs, to senior BBC journalists and representatives of Britain's largest charities, the pattern became depressingly familiar. Material would come flooding out on the phone or in a meeting, but then days later an email would arrive to say that they would not be able to take part. Either after consultation with colleagues or consideration of the potential consequences, people pulled out.

Some had more reason than others. Jonathan Dimbleby had boldly expressed criticism in a powerfully argued article for Index on Censorship of the pressure from pro-Israel groups on the BBC, which led to the BBC Trust's report on Jeremy Bowen, and had initially been keen to be involved. Suddenly his interest evaporated. There simply wasn't the time, he said. At first we felt baffled and let down. But in due course we discovered that his comments had brought a complaint from the very same lawyer, Jonathan Turner of the Zionist Federation, that had complained about Jeremy Bowen. Dimbleby is now going through the exact same complaints process that he criticized. Turner is arguing that Dimbleby's comments make him unfit to host the BBC's Any Questions. The Dimbleby experience serves as a cautionary tale for anyone approaching this subject. Others, such as Sir John Tusa, who had opposed the BBC's refusal to broadcast the Disasters Emergency Committee Gaza appeal, were overcome with modesty, feeling that they simply didn't have the expertise to tackle the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:40 PM

Steve and Don, you do not find the truth by "trawling the internet," you find whatever you want to find.
It is absurd to imagine that BBC, Guardian, Independent, Ch.4 news, etc., etc., are keeping "the truth" about Israel secret because of sinister and secret global organisations.
You are not deprived of the truth by our media, and you do not find it by trawling the net.

Jim, does anything in Grabowski's testimony suggest that he or those around him were expecting atrocities to be committed?
No. It is convincing evidence that IDF was neither expecting nor prepared for it.

His testimony to the enquiry exposed serious errors of judgement and probably of conduct by his immediate (low level)superiors.

From the Kahan Commission Report.
Late in the afternoon (Friday 17th.)he related what he had seen to his commander in the tank battalion and to other officers. At their suggestion he related this to his brigade commander at 20:00 hours (Grabowsky testimony, pp. 380-388). In various statements made to the staff investigators, soldiers and officers from Lieutenant Grabowsky's unit and from other units stationed nearby related that they saw on Friday various acts of maltreatment by the Phalangist soldiers against men, women and children who were taken out of the camp, and heard complaints and stories regarding acts of killing carried out by the Phalangists. One of those questioned heard a communications report to the battalion commander about the Phalangists "running wild."

The battalion commander did not confirm in his statements (no. 21 and no. 175) and testimony that he had received reports on Friday from any of his battalion's soldiers about acts of killing or violent actions by the Phalangists against the residents of the camps. According to him, he indeed heard on Thursday night, when he was in the forward command post, about 300 killed, a number which was later reduced to 120 killed; but on Friday the only report he received was about the escape of a few dozen beaten or wounded persons northward and eastward, and this was in the afternoon. At a later date, after the massacre in the camps was publicized, the battalion commander made special efforts to obtain a monitoring report of the battalion's radio frequency and he submitted this report to us (exhibit 1240). In this document no record was found of a report of acts of killing or maltreatment by the Phalangists on Friday.

We did not send a notice as per Section 15 to this battalion commander, and this for the reasons explained in the Introduction. We have not arrived at any findings or conclusions on the contradictory versions regarding the report to the battalion commander, and it appears to us that this subject can and should be investigated within the framework of the I.D.F., as we have proposed in the Introduction. For the purposes of the matters we are discussing, we determine that indeed I.D.F. soldiers who were near the embankment which surrounded the camp saw certain acts of killing and an attempt was made to report this to commanders of higher ranks; but this report did not reach Brigadier General Yaron or Major General Drori.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM

It is absurd to imagine that BBC, Guardian, Independent, Ch.4 news, etc., etc., are keeping "the truth" about Israel secret because of sinister and secret global organisations.
You are not deprived of the truth by our media, and you do not find it by trawling the net.

All you've done here is say that was I said was not true. You think that Keith says it, so it must be right. Not a shred of counter-research or evidence. And who said anything about global? Not me, that's for sure. Get a bloody grip, man. And read the sources I gave you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:45 PM

Sorry, italics went astray there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:55 PM

I am saying that I find it absurd Steve.
I do not believe it, but I admit I have found no journalists claiming that they are not gagged by non-global Israelis.
Funny that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 10:12 PM

Not as bloody absurd as that post, old bean.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:41 AM

Let me explain then.
When an attempt is made to gag our media, there is a media wide outcry.
Consider super injunctions, Leveson and privacy laws, D notices, Spy Catcher, gagging terrorists etc.
Your silly anecdotes asside, there is no-one claiming "the truth" about Israel cannot be told.
No-one would make an issue about not being gagged, so you can not expect much evidence.

Re your new book Jim.
When someone goes out to write a book about alien abduction, they find witnesses, and there is not even political motivation to make that up.
Kapeliouk went to the camps for a book.
Had he found just anothere Arab on Arab slaughter his book would have disappeared without trace.
It would certainly not still be in print 30 years later!
The massacres happened again and worse a couple of years later.
No books or Mudcat threads.
A thousand die in Syria every week, but who gives a shit?
No-one posts now never mind in 30 years time.
Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews.

So, before you transpose the whole book, let's draw a line.
We have been over it all many times before anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 04:25 AM

"When someone goes out to write a book about alien abduction,"
Of - for fucks sake!!!
Stop making "facts" up or at least back up your nonsensical claims with evidence of your own - utter, fabricated nonsense.
Would you care to dispute some of the facts in the book with real evidence - no - I thought now?
You have denied that you have dismissed evidence you there you are doing it again.
You have failed to provide one single scrap of evidence yourself and have carefully paraphrased the claims of those who have been accused of, tried and convicted beyond doubt of all of these horrific crimes.
"Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews."
The good old Anti-Semitic standby - the only Anti-Semites her are those who would connect these crimes with 'being a Jew' - these are Israeli crimes, not Jewish ones and it is on par with your making Pakistani males "cultural" paedophiles to suggest otherwise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 04:49 AM

Have just clicked through the book to check your claims of anti-Semitism.
Far from making it a "Jewish" thing, the author did exactly the opposite by devoting a whole chapter "Blame the Jews" to showing it was not. It contains this statement:

"Israeli writer Amos Kenan, writing for Yedi'ot Aharonot, stated that "In a single stroke, Mr. Begin, you have lost the one million Jewish children who were all you possessed on this earth. The one million children from Auschwitz no longer belong to you. You have sold them without any gain."

Outside of that chapter his few references to Judaism include this:

"Among the victims of the massacre were nine Jewish women who had married Palestinian men during the British Mandate and accompanied their husbands to Lebanon during the 1948 exodus."

You have consistently claimed you are not a liar, yet here you have manufactured a statement that is a blatant lie, and in doing so, it shows you as an Antisemite, not the author – but we already knew that, didn't we?
"transpose the whole book."
Wouldn't dream of it, you don't read the little put up for you anyway.
By the way - it isn't a "new book", either to me or to the now deceased author - I knew about it years ago and it was written shortly after the events - I don't even know if it's still in print - it's available on the web as a free download
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:01 AM

I withdraw "Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews."

Insert "Massacres only matter if you can frame Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:11 AM

""No. It is convincing evidence that IDF was neither expecting nor prepared for it.

His testimony to the enquiry exposed serious errors of judgement and probably of conduct by his immediate (low level)superiors.""

" Israeli soldiers who reported Phalangist atrocities against civilians to their superiors were ordered not to interfere with what was happening in the camps and not to enter the area. When Grabowski reported what he saw to his superiors, his tank crew quoted the battalion commander saying: ""We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere."" (Final Report, p. 35).

"Access to the camp was blocked by Israeli soldiers, who repeatedly ordered fleeing refugees to turn back.

That sentence, ""We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere.,"" is the response of someone who doesn't like what is happening, but is acting upon direct orders from above.

So, not ""serious errors of judgement and probably of conduct by his immediate (low level)superiors"", but orders from an altogether more senior level.

Your attempts to minimise the obviously pro-active nature of the Israeli involvement are both feeble and futile.

And the fact that the Israelis continued to turn back civilian refugees under white flags to be slaughtered proves their active involvement.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM

Withdraw what you want - you've said it several times and its a part of the shit of your ongoing defence of Israeli atrocities.
By you and your mate's constantly trying to make this an "Anti-Semitic"
issue you've attempted to pin these, long-established and proven crimes on the Jews rather than the real culprits, the Israelis.
I've got thoroughly pissed off with your inept, lying and lazy defence of war crimes, massacres and atrocities, you've done nothing for the Israeli cause with your cack-handedly feebly and totally unevidenced repetition of "they didn't do it but I'm not going to tell you how I know that" crassness
Nothing good has come from all your shit other than to add another score to your already deplorable record of dishonesty, evasion, deliberate misquotes and appalling insulting accusations towards members of this forum.
You are a racist and atrocity-denying little shit and the longer you keep this up the more people get to notice it - keep up the good work.
Jim Carroll
PS I didn't think for one moment you would even attempt to back up your claims, or even refer to the Sabra book - more lying

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:17 AM

""The battalion commander did not confirm in his statements (no. 21 and no. 175) and testimony that he had received reports on Friday from any of his battalion's soldiers about acts of killing or violent actions by the Phalangists against the residents of the camps.""

So you take the statement of a battalion commander, who stands to lose his rank if he admits that he had that information, against the word of soldiers with nothing whatever to gain from lying about events, and in your twisted mind, he is more likely to be telling the truth.

Pathetic!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

PPS for Keith
Please, please tell me I'm resorting to "personal insults because I'm losing the argument."
I've got a streaming cold and a sturmer of a headache and have had to cancel a play tonight that I was looking forward to - I really could do with a bit of a giggle!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 09:01 AM

Don, he produced the radio log to back up his claim, but who knows?
Although that report, Friday 4pm, did not get through others did and by that evening the Militia were ordered to remove all their fighters from the camp by 5am.
When Fisk entered at 10.30 am it was all over.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM

"Proof is all you need" as the song nearly said - you haven't even bothered to link your claims - again and again and again and again...............
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM

My last post is sourced from Kahan, NYT Sept 26 1982, and Fisk's report all of which you have quoted.
Would you like any repeated Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:10 AM

Let me explain then.
When an attempt is made to gag our media, there is a media wide outcry.
Consider super injunctions, Leveson and privacy laws, D notices, Spy Catcher, gagging terrorists etc.
Your silly anecdotes asside, there is no-one claiming "the truth" about Israel cannot be told.

I don't have any "silly little anecdotes".

The press bias toward Israel doesn't work that way. Half our press is already in the ardently pro-Israel camp without pressure from anyone else. It would be nice to see balance, but pressure from pro-Israel lobby groups on the rest ensures that doesn't happen. You see, Keith, this is the problem here. You read nice things about Israel in the papers so you think that Israel is nice and you don't look beyond. You don't dig and delve. You are thoroughly in your pro-Israel comfort zone, so why should you even bother to look for dissent from your cosy viewpoint? That, old chap, is exactly where the lobby groups want you. You've fallen for it hook, line and sinker. That's how it works. You have most of the media batting for you, one or two exceptions striving to be "neutral" (at least The Guardian allows alternative opinions to be put in its Comments pages). It isn't so much a question of gagging, it's much more to do with rigged imbalance. But you think that the imbalance is good balance. You don't see how much harder it is to get alternative points of view (because you don't look), and, worse, because you think Israel is so squeaky-clean you don't want to do that hard work. Then, when we do it and give you the links, we are routinely dissed for providing lies, bias, silly anecdotes. My word, Keith, your faith in the media is nothing if not touching.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:16 AM

Don.
And the fact that the Israelis continued to turn back civilian refugees under white flags to be slaughtered proves their active involvement.
The quote from NYT is misleading.
If you read the whole thing you will see that many did get out, and even this group did not return to the camp.
Here is the relevant bit.


As they approached the Israeli checkpoint on the main boulevard, kitty-corner to the Barbir Hospital, they were stopped by an Israeli soldier. The soldier, by all accounts, was clearly surprised and probably frightened to see all of these people coming at him.

The soldier shouted in Arabic to the crowd to stay back, then went into crouch position at the corner of a building and aimed his gun at the people, who immediately started shrieking and turned around. Crowd Chooses a Spokesman

The soldier, members of the crowd recalled, then told them to send one person forward to explain what they wanted. A man was chosen and sent to speak to the Israeli.

According to the people, the spokesman told the soldier that Haddad militiamen were slaughtering civilians in the camps and that they were trying to escape.

The Israeli soldier told the spokesman that there was nothing he could do, and added that if they remained in the area, he would open fire.

People began protesting; women started weeping. The Israeli soldier then reportedly fired two volleys into the air to scatter the crowd. At that point, witnesses say, an Israeli tank rolled from Corniche Mazraa onto Rue Mohammed Ali Beyhum and chased the people a few hundred feet back toward the camps. A Witness Corroborates Account

Reporters who went to the intersection last Thursday afternoon found a Lebanese man who lived in a first-floor apartment who said he had seen the entire episode from his balcony. He confirmed the refugees' story without any prompting.

If the refugees' account is true, it would appear that by Friday afternoon the Israeli commanders had given no order to allow civilians fleeing the scene to pass through the perimeter set up around the camps by the Israeli Army.

''If we went one way we ran into the Israelis; if we went the other way we ran into the Haddad men,'' Taleb Alouki said, ''so we all just decided to turn around and hide in the school.''

Almost a week later, they were still there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:22 AM

Steve.
My word, Keith, your faith in the media is nothing if not touching.
Your faith in the internet is frightening.

I follow Guardian reports on Israel including the comments section so I am not being hoodwinked.
The Guardian would refute your suggestion that their news is imbalanced in Israel's favour, and so would I.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM

Israel has a nuclear weapons stockpile and latest armaments, many coming from the United States. They are clearly the more advanced in weapons technology over the Palestinians who have resorted to rock throwing, though not recently as they have adopted a non-violent stance regardless of Hamas.

The idea that Israel has tanks and superior weaponry that the use against the Palestinian people for whatever reason is odious and no mealy-mouthed editorialized journalistic excuses can refute this.

Israel and the U.S. are nuclear bullies. Both countries are armed to the teeth and their condemnation of Iran which doesn't have nuke weapons is totally hypocritical.
This goes for England, France, and other Nuke bomb owned countries.

What the Israeli government in conjunction with the U.S. is not only immoral but doesn't do anything for "security".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:45 AM

The Guardian would refute your suggestion that their news is imbalanced in Israel's favour, and so would I.

I said that The Guardian strove to be "neutral". You spend your whole life making stuff up, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:51 AM

I do not make things up Steve.
You wrote, "one or two exceptions striving to be "neutral" (at least The Guardian allows alternative opinions to be put in its Comments pages). "

I inferred, reasonably, that Comment was balanced but not the rest.

Anyway, I am definitely not hoodwinked if its all ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 02:55 PM

"I do not make things up Steve."
I assume the fact that, despite requests, you are offering neither proof nor links to your ludicrous statements, means that you are either making them up as you go along or lifting them from Israeli propaganda sites.
There is an unbelievable arrogance in all this. You offer no accredited back-up information of your own and you dismiss out-of-hand researched and accredited information we put up.
Your latest effort was to dismiss a well researched and annotated work (which you haven't read and won't read) on the greatest Israeli single massacre to date (certainly the greatest in the latter half of the 20th century) as comparable to "alien abductions".
You describe the Jewish author's (a resident of Jerusalem) outlook thus:
"Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews."
I hope you take yourself more seriously than everybody else does.
By the way - the only "evidence" you have provided that the Guardian and its journalists are eityher biased or anti-Semitic comes directly from a pro-Israeliu propaganda site who disecribes its role as
"CIFWATCH
"MONITORING AND COMBATING ANTISEMITISM, AND THE ASSAULT ON ISRAEL'S LEGITIMACY, AT THE GUARDIAN AND ITS BLOG, 'COMMENT IS FREE."'
An Israeli propaganda site, no less.
And you've got the neck to claim our sources are biased
One more time - can we please have links to your nutty claims before I start seeking out your cut-'n-pastes and announcing them all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:03 PM

"No sensible person wants to see Syria's arsenal handed out to militant Islamists, as happened in Libya."
Just started trawling through the thankless task of trawling though this thread to find your sources and came across this gem - were you aware that the British government is considering arming the Syrian rebels - "sensible people eh - what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:07 PM

So, Jim, what you are saying is that EVERYTHING posted on an Arab/AntiZionist site must be believed, and NOTHING on an Israeli/Zionist site is to be believed???

Is that a correct summary of your comment?


Some of us look at all reports, and try to figure out the truth. Al-Jazeera is biased, as is the Jerusalem Post, but BOTH are worth the effort of reading, if one is interested in finding out the reality of what is going on. NEITHER one prints all the information, nor is absolutely factual at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 05:07 PM

On the contrary Bruce – keep up.
Keith has rejected literally all information criticising Israel as coming from biased, unreliable and in some cases Anti Semitic sources (the latter being one of your much used accusations too), while the rest of us have questioned Israeli information only when it contradicts well researched and widely accepted and proven facts.
Keith's latest spectacular own-goal in his writing off what is, as far as I can see, the definitive work on Sabra and Shatila massacre by Jewish, Jerusalem resident (as was - he's dead nowadays!) Amnon Kapeliouk thus "Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews".
In ascribing Israeli atrocities to "Jews" rather than "the Israeli regime" is deeply anti Semitic – I would have thought you would have been deeply offended by such viciousness, yet you seem to subscribe to that school of thought yourself – please tell me it isn't so!!

For Keith
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9709946/West-could-arm-Syrian-rebels-within-months-after-Britain-wins-diplomatic-battle.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 05:15 PM

Jim, I keep asking you what you want substantiated, and you just keep accusing me of not doing it.
Just say what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM

Is that a correct summary of your comment?

Not to anyone who can read and/or reason it isn't, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:38 AM

""If the refugees' account is true, it would appear that by Friday afternoon the Israeli commanders had given no order to allow civilians fleeing the scene to pass through the perimeter set up around the camps by the Israeli Army.

''If we went one way we ran into the Israelis; if we went the other way we ran into the Haddad men,'' Taleb Alouki said, ''so we all just decided to turn around and hide in the school.''

Almost a week later, they were still there.""

What are you on mate? That passage confirms exactly what we have been saying, that the Israelis were complicit in the massacre.

You really think that because one group hid out and survived, no thanks to the Israeli army, that this exonerates Israel from blame for the whole massacre?

Your complete separation fom reality is astounding.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:58 AM

""So, Jim, what you are saying is that EVERYTHING posted on an Arab/AntiZionist site must be believed, and NOTHING on an Israeli/Zionist site is to be believed???""

Classic! And you are saying that:-

Asociated Press
Reuters
BTSelem
Israeli Soldiers
Israeli citizens
Foreign doctors and nurses

are all ""Arab/AntiZionist"", and nothing they say is to be believed.

And against this you put up the word of the accused (the Israeli government) and NO independent witness support, and this must be believed.

Give us one good solid reason

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:00 AM

Don,
Yes, by that Friday afternoon there was a soldier who would not let them pass.
Later, the news of the killings got through and the militia were ordered out.

There is no complicity. The soldiers were not expecting such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:10 AM

Interesting that, ever since I mentioned AIPAC a couple of days ago, I've been pelted with AIPAC banner ad after AIPAC banner ad every time I visit mudcat. I don't suppose this post will help.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:27 AM

"The soldiers were not expecting such a thing"
Exerpts from Amnon Kapeliouk's book:
More to come.
Jim Carroll

"The Israeli Army decided otherwise. As early as noon on Wednesday, the camps of Sabra and Shatila, which were not separated by any exact boundary, were surrounded by Israeli tanks pointing their guns at the camps. A little later, Israeli soldiers set up check-points around the camps, allowing them to control all entrances and exits. Anxiety began to mount inside the camps. The great majority of the inhabitants locked themselves inside their homes. The PLO fighters -who had always defended the camps and resisted the siege of Beirut for weeks- were no longer there. No visible sign of their presence remained except for old posters glued to the walls of shattered homes. The Palestinian refugees of both camps -mostly elderly, women, and children- had avoided any confrontation with the Israeli Army for fear of reprisals. In anticipation of the rainy season, they had just begun to rebuild their homes shelled during the Israeli siege. Since the departure of the Palestinian fighters, all traces of armed presence in the camps had disappeared.
During the late afternoon and early evening, a few shells were fired by the Israeli Army in the direction of Sabra and Shatila. Norwegian Doctor Per Maehlumshagen, an orthopedic surgeon at Gaza Hospital situated to the west of Sabra, testified that the first wounded, about fifteen persons, started to be brought in that Wednesday evening. Others, generally victims of sniper fire, arrived the same evening at Akka Hospital, across the road that marks the southern edge of Shatila.
Zaki, an electrician from Sabra, recounted that he had accompanied other camp residents to an Israeli military post to express their fear of being captured by armed Lebanese groups. The Israeli soldiers reassured them, claiming that nothing would happen to them, "because they were civilians, not terrorists." Then, they ordered them to return to their homes."

"At 3:00 P.M., the commander of the Israeli forces in Beirut, Brigadier General Amos Yaron, and two of his staff officers met with Elie Hobeika, director of intelligence in the Lebanese Forces, and Fadi Frem, their chief of staff. With the assistance of aerial Photographs furnished by Israel, they coordinated the details of the Phalangist entry into the camps. The Israeli general confirmed that his troops would supply all the necessary assistance: "to mop up the terrorists in the camps. Then, Major General Drori called Ariel Sharon to announce: "Our friends are marching on the camps. " We have coordinated their entry." "Congratulations!" replied Ariel Sharon, "The operation of our friends is approved.""

"Various accounts are in full agreement concerning the precise time of the assailants' entry into the camps. According to Israeli soldiers present in the area, the time of entry was 5:15 P.M. Camp residents confirm that the first organized murders began at 5:00, or even a little earlier in certain locations in Shatila. Ariel Sharon declared before the Knesset that "the forces entered [the camps] at night." Furthermore, everyone agrees that the attackers entered from two directions: from the south through the main road leading to the camps, and from the southwest coming down the hill near the Kuwaiti Embassy. Leading the campaign was Elie Hobeika."

"Ha'aretz correspondent Michael Gerti and photographer Uzi Keren, who arrived at Shatila the day after the massacre, filed the following account by two Israeli paratroopers: "It was possible to stop the massacre in Shatila, even on Thursday; had they acted on what we reported to our commander." One of the soldiers voluntarily admitted to the journalists: "On Thursday evening, as darkness fell, Palestinian women from Shatila arrived at the post and hysterically told us that the Phalangists were shooting their children and putting the men in trucks. I reported this to my commander, but all he said was: 'It is okay, do not worry.' My order was to tell the women to go back home. However, many women, and entire families as well, ran away from the camps to the north. I went back and repeated my report over and over. Each time, however, the answer was the same: "It is okay." An Israeli officer belonging to the same select unit reported to Gerti and Keren that he had received several reports of this type. However, he added: "Everybody was sure it was just hysterics." (Ha'aretz, September 23, 1982)."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:51 AM

So you do intend to transpose your whole book!
Did you notice "a soldier" was embellished to "soldiers"?
Just a minor change from the original report but you have to wonder.

He went to find witnesses against Israel, and luckily he found them or he would have had no book.
But, we all know that witnesses can always be found to denounce Israel, even when there has been no crime.
They lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:54 AM

More (ibid)
Jim Carroll
On many occasions, Israeli officers in constant contact with the Christian forces heard such remarks as: "We'll cut their throats," or "blood will be knee-deep." After learning of Sharon's decision to authorize Phalangist entry into the camps, an Israeli officer reacted by stating: "He who allows a fox into a hen-house should not be astonished if the chickens are devoured." Another Israeli officer, who served a long time at the headquarters of the northern front, said: ''The Lebanese Forces resemble the militias of Sa'ad Haddad. They both pose as heroes in the face of unarmed civilians." He recalled that during the ''Litani Operation'' of March 1978 (the first Israeli invasion of south Lebanon), Haddad's troops were content to follow the Israeli Army, ransacking and killing along their path. All the inhabitants of the village of Khiyam were savagely massacred and all their possessions loaded on trucks by Haddad's men.
Nothing better illustrates the state of mind prevalent at the Israeli command than the following minor event reported by the Labor daily, Davar. After Ariel Sharon had decided to authorize the Phalangists to "mop-up the camps," an officer suggested that an Israeli liaison officer should accompany them on their mission. However, a higher-ranking officer rejected the idea on the spot. He argued that one would expect the Phalangists to commit irregularities, thus, it would be unwise for the Israeli Army to be involved. This same officer knew that the operation was led by Elie Hobeika, an old acquaintance of the Israelis, and was also aware of the implications of Hobeika's involvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:55 AM

None of the examples in your last post suggests complicity anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM

" suggests complicity anyway"
"On many occasions, Israeli officers in constant contact with the Christian forces heard such remarks as: "We'll cut their throats," or "blood will be knee-deep."
"However, a higher-ranking officer rejected the idea on the spot. He argued that one would expect the Phalangists to commit irregularities, thus, it would be unwise for the Israeli Army to be involved."
"They lie."
""Ha'aretz correspondent Michael Gerti and photographer Uzi Keren, who arrived at Shatila the day after the massacre, filed the following account by two Israeli paratroopers: ""
Why - anti Semitic or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:52 AM

If we have to go through your whole book we will be here for years.
Remind me why we have to discuss this piece of history anyway.
Do you still want me to substantiate anything?

The paratrooper had only been told of crimes by someone.
He passed it on but it was not believed.
"However, he added: "Everybody was sure it was just hysterics.""

" would be unwise for the Israeli Army to be involved."
A report that appeared only in one paper, and who was the informant?
Was there an informant?
Who knows. It was thirty one years ago!
Now, what was this thread supposed to be about before you hijacked it as you always do when it goes against you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:18 AM

"Remind me why we have to discuss this piece of history anyway.
Because this is the subject in hand at present
Do you still want me to substantiate anything?"
You have not substantiated one single thing you have said not with evidence nor even with links to your claims - and this continues to be the case.
No - I don't want you to substantiate anything any more - you have failed to respond to do so despite constant requests - your input here is no more than your own twistd invention.
I'm more than happy to continue to point out that fact for the length of this thread - and to point out your crass, self-important arrogance in imagining that what you have to say has anything to do with the real world.
I ask again "Why - anti Semitic or what?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM

Just a reminder of you are calling a liar - Haaretz is Israel's oldest national newspaper - the Israeli equivalent of the Guardian or the Independent - and its sources were Israeli soldiers.
One more time "Why - anti Semitic or what?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:31 AM

The paratrooper had only been told of crimes by someone.
He passed it on but it was not believed.
"However, he added: "Everybody was sure it was just hysterics.""
Not lies.
Not antisemitism.
Just not evidence of complicity.


If I have failed to substantiate something, just tell me what it is.
You can't though.
It is just bluster.

This historical dead end is only "the subject in hand at present" because you dragged it up, as you always do when a ME thread goes against you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:36 AM

To add insult to injury:
Israeli child abuse

Steve, AIPAC is a highly prejudicial organization, pro-Zionist that is evangelical
in its approach to countering opposition. They are only really popular in the U.S. since the rise of para-military organizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:50 AM

Stringy, I don't blame you for ignoring Jim's desperate attempts to change the subject.

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:54 AM

You want something new? - as fresh as this morning's news.
What's a girl to do - ignore, deny or accuse Unicef of being antisemitic - choices, choices?
Jim Carroll

PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ILL-TREATED BY ISRAELI MILITARY, SAYS UNICEF.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 12:11 PM

Yeah, I know about AIPAC. Pity most yanks don't seem to. They are the enemies of democracy and need to be exposed as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM

"Jim's desperate attempts to change the subject."
Are you out of your mind or do you think we are?
Are you seriously attempting to claim that a topic that has been part of this thread from its earliest postings and has been contributed to here by many participants is "thread drift"?
You really are a ruthlessly dishonest little prick.
And don't you dare try to implicate another member of this forum in your lying.
Stringsinger has just re-introduced another aspect of your human-rights abuses denials, and it is perfectly valid of him of him to have done so.
This thread, thanks to your own fanatical defence of every single atrocity carried out and facilitated by Israel, is about your own slimy efforts to defend massacres, war crimes, human rights abuses, racism, ethnic cleansing, the poisoning of whole communities, chemical warfare..... you name it, you've defended it.
You seem to now be a self-appointed Lord Haw-Haw for Israel
Do not treat us as morons - go look in the mirror if you want one.
"If I have failed to substantiate something, just tell me what it is."
And your moronic repetition of this only serves to underline your extremely disturbed state of mind.
You have not qualified one single statement of yours with evidence, you have not even provided links to your claims - all but a few of them are your twisted inventions, the rest are lifted from dedicated Israeli propaganda sites.
I suggest you start at the first claim you have made here and either show us where you have qualified it or now provide a link so we may do so for ourselves.
You have an extremely wide field - so far you have substantiated nothing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

Right
Starter for ten - despite all the masses of evidence you have been given on the part Israel played in the Sabra Shatila massacre, you have denied that it took no part whatever in the slaughter of up to 3,500 refugees -
give us the evidence you base this claim on - the perpetrators claiming that they didn't do it does not count as evidence.
'Way you go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 02:59 PM

Jim,

"In ascribing Israeli atrocities to "Jews" rather than "the Israeli regime" is deeply anti Semitic – I would have thought you would have been deeply offended by such viciousness, yet you seem to subscribe to that school of thought yourself – please tell me it isn't so!!
"

Are the Palestinians jihadists ( as Hamas states in their charter, declaring they want to kill all Jews?) ?


"Killing Jews is worship that draws us closer to Allah," reads one of the ads, which has people debating the line between free speech and hate speech.

"The purpose of our campaign is to show the reality of Jihad, the root causes of terrorism. Using the exact quotes and text that they use," said Pamela Geller of the American Freedom Defense Institute."
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/03/11/killing-jews-is-worship-ad-campaign-rolled-out-on-sf-buses/



When Hamas talks about Jews instead of Israelis, one has to wonder about the protests of them NOT being anti-Semitic ( in the commonly accepted term- I realize both Palestinians and Israeli Jews are Semitic).

I have acknowledged that Israel had responsibilities that it did not meet in Lebanon, but I have not absolved the Lebanese, nor the Palestinian fighters either, from their active roles that you ignore in blaming Israel for it's passive one of NOT stepping in.

As I have stated, the present state of Jordan was formed as THE PALESTINIAN ARAB HOMELAND with Jewish settlement prohibited- on 77% of the Mandate Palestine ( The Jewish Homeland of the treaty breaking up the Ottoman Empire) territory. Israel settled the Jews driven out of Arab countries- WHY SHOULD THEY GIVE ANY LAND to the present Palestinian refugees? When you address the tens of thousands of Palestinian refugees killed by Jordan ( go back and look) and the greater number of Jews driven from their homeland than "Palestinian Arabs ( 820,000 Jews vs 640,000 Arabs), and the continuing Palestinian war crimes of placing rocket launch sites in civilian areas such as homes, schools, and hospitals, THEN I might be more willing to look at your complaints about Israeli crimes.


BTW, Most of the Palestinians I know were Christians driven out of Ramallah in 1948 BY THE ARABS. Jordan held the West Bank from 1948 to 1967- Tell me how well the Jewish population was treated before you talk about present Israeli policies toward its minorities.

Undr Israel, Arabs have control of the Temple Mount- Under the Arabs, Jews were not even permitted to access the Wailing Wall. Which do you think is a fairer basis to treat people?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:22 PM

""He went to find witnesses against Israel, and luckily he found them or he would have had no book.
But, we all know that witnesses can always be found to denounce Israel, even when there has been no crime.
They lie.""

Don't be silly Keith! There are far too many similar reports for that statement to have any credibility.

In that excerpt is an Israeli soldier, clearly stating that he repeatedly reported the situation and was told not to worry. He even commented that some women ran away and escaped while he was doing this.

So you, without evidence or justification "know" that he is lying.

Your claims to be able to read minds are getting more unbelievable with every post.

Earlier you admitted that Israel wasn't perfect (under extreme pressure and much protest from you), so some criticism would obviously be true and deserved.

Yet you adamantly insist that all who criticise Israel are LIARS.

You are either a fool, or a bigot. Care to tell us which?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:30 PM

The idea of Palestinians being described as "Arabs" is condescending in itself, a ploy used by many Zionists to disenfranchise a Palestinian heritage or state. It's the same as equating all Jews with Zionism. The settling of this part of the world goes back historically prior to the Zionist movement to reclaim that part of the land for Biblical reasons. Actually historically, the Jewish population under Islamic early times (Salidin) were treated humanely. It's true they were taxed but tolerated.
The strip of land now known as Israel was not predominantly Jewish but mixed with other religious groups. It's not news that Islam and Judaism have a contentious heritage but who owns the Temple Mount really? Who was there first? I doubt whether Palestinians are allowed to visit the Wailing Wall so what is being talked about here?

The only solution I see for this religious conflict to end is for Zionists to share the country with Palestinians under a single state with equal representation and no second class citizens. In this way, the U.S. is a model of diversity for Israel and true to the original American spirit of inclusion. The State would have to be a mixture of Socialism and Capitalism which in a way is what it originally started with under Ben Gurion. Since then, Israel has become a theocracy whereas the Palestinian State is yet to be recognized in any form.

I fear that a dual state solution would result in pretty much the same thing that goes on now, with Palestinians in a Canton or ghettoized. This would be preferable, however, to what they have now, an open air concentration camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:32 PM

No answer Bruce
You asked:
"So, Jim, what you are saying is that EVERYTHING posted on an Arab/AntiZionist site must be believed, and NOTHING on an Israeli/Zionist site is to be believed???"
I replied:
On the contrary Bruce – keep up.
Keith has rejected literally all information criticising Israel as coming from biased, unreliable and in some cases Anti Semitic sources (the latter being one of your much used accusations too), while the rest of us have questioned Israeli information only when it contradicts well researched and widely accepted and proven facts.
Keith's latest spectacular own-goal in his writing off what is, as far as I can see, the definitive work on Sabra and Shatila massacre by Jewish, Jerusalem resident (as was - he's dead nowadays!) Amnon Kapeliouk thus "Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews".
In ascribing Israeli atrocities to "Jews" rather than "the Israeli regime" is deeply anti Semitic – I would have thought you would have been deeply offended by such viciousness, yet you seem to subscribe to that school of thought yourself – please tell me it isn't so!!
As you see, your reply bears no relationship to your question or my reply.
Are you (like Keith) claiming that one atrocity cancels out another, one regime is as bad the other.... or what?
Looking forward to hearing from you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:38 PM

"Are you (like Keith) claiming that one atrocity cancels out another, one regime is as bad the other.... or what?"

Atrocities do NOT cancel out.

But the Israeli responsibility was its failure to take action to prevent the killing.

I acknowledge that failure.

It was wrong to NOT take action.


Now, will you admit it is wrong for Hamas to actively continue in it's present war crimes of random rocket launches against a civilian population, placing military assets in prohibited civilian areas such as schools and hospitals, and executing political opposition members without benefit of trial, all "Crimes against Humanity" as defined by law?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:40 PM

""and the continuing Palestinian war crimes of placing rocket launch sites in civilian areas such as homes, schools, and hospitals, THEN I might be more willing to look at your complaints about Israeli crimes.""

But you see BB, we have only the Israeli govenment's word for that, in justification of their indiscriminate bombing and shelling of more homes, schools and hospitals than the terrorists have rocket launchers.

You see our problem. Israel's word is not a commodity which you would bet your house on.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM

The radar tracks are available to the UN, and there has been no claims by the Palestinians that the information is inaccurate.

And I have seen the pictures FROM ARAB SOURCES of the launches from those areas- usually the parking lot just outside the entrance, from a pickup truck which fires a folly, then moves off. leaving the civilians to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:52 PM

""When Hamas talks about Jews instead of Israelis, one has to wonder about the protests of them NOT being anti-Semitic ( in the commonly accepted term- I realize both Palestinians and Israeli Jews are Semitic).""

When Hamas are talkng about "Israelis", they are talking about a country with a population composed of Jews, Muslims and Bedouin Arabs, the government of which claims it is a ""Jewish State"".

They don't see a distinction (how could they) between government and people. All they see is that this Jewish State oppresses them, seemingly without opposition from anybody including most of their Arab and Muslim neighbours.

I don't claim that they are not anti semitic. I would be surprised if they weren't.

Nonetheless, they are as entitled to a life as anyone else, whatever you or Keith may think to the contrary.

Under Israel's thumb, they aren't getting it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM

Don,

You really need to look at Al Jazeera every once in a while and see the Arab viewpoint...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 04:06 PM

Editorial from today's National Post newspaper

On Nov. 14, 2012, the Israeli Defense Forces began Operation Pillar of Defense, aimed at Hamas' Gaza-based network of rocket batteries and terrorist hideouts. Soon after the conflict began, tragedy befell one Palestinian family. Their home was destroyed by a powerful explosion. Three civilians, including an 11-month-old boy, were killed.

The father of the child was a photojournalist working for the BBC in Gaza. Photos of his anguished reaction to the tragic loss of his son were seen around the world, and quickly became a rallying point for those opposed to the Israeli operation. Media reports laid the boy's death at Israel's feet. Journalists slammed the death of the child of one of their own. Israel again faced criticisms that its attacks, no matter the provocation, could not be justified.

But, thanks to a new report from the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC), we now know better.

The 17-page report, released last week, provides a detailed breakdown of the seven-day conflict between Israel and Hamas. It documents the military actions, and casualties, of both sides. And it concludes that the missile that killed the young child was, in fact, a Hamas rocket. It apparently malfunctioned and crashed into Gaza on its way to Israel, after being launched by Hamas from a position near the family home — itself a violation of international law. (The report also concludes that another child killed in the fighting, whose body was shown in public being kissed by the visiting Egyptian prime minister and senior Hamas officials, was also killed by errant Hamas fire.)

The reassignment of the responsibility for these terrible incidents is just some of the bad news for Israel's critics to be found in the report. It is true that the UNHRC did cite several incidents where Israel's conduct may not have been fully in line with international law, including several in which civilian areas were hit either accidentally or without prior warning, and several others where media or medical facilities were struck by Israeli munitions. (There are indications that at least some of these incidents were accidents, including one where a hospital roof was struck by illumination flares that failed to ignite in midair as designed, causing minor damage). We trust Israel will review these incidents, and draw the appropriate lessons from them.

But the relative handful of potential violations pales next to the enormous scale of the military operation. Israel conducted 1,500 air strikes on targets within Gaza, as well as seven naval attacks and several hundred strikes with artillery, but the UNHRC found that only 101 civilians deaths could be attributed to Israeli military action. Considering the densely populated nature of Gaza, such accuracy represents a level of precision essentially unknown in any prior war in history.

Every civilian death is a tragedy, of course, and every effort should be made to avoid such incidents in the future. Yet the report makes clear that many of these civilians were killed, not because Israel was aiming at them, but because they had the terrible luck of being in the vicinity of legitimate targets that Israel was striking in response to continued Hamas aggression. The UNHRC's experts are naive if they believe that any country, in any war, can find a way to prevent any civilian casualties when fighting erupts in urban areas.

And Israel rarely struck without warning. During the week-long conflict, Israel dropped 200,000 leaflets, made 20,000 telephone calls and sent 12,000 text messages, warning civilians in Gaza of imminent military actions and urging them to seek safety. (Apparently blind to the irony, the UNHRC concluded that such warnings may make Israel guilty of intentionally displacing civilians, only several pages after criticizing Israel for not always providing sufficient warning of planned combat operations in populated areas.)

The report does not spare Hamas from criticism. While chastising Israel for the incidents where it struck without warning or apparent military targets, it notes that, "Many, if not the vast majority of the Palestinian attacks on Israel constituted indiscriminate attacks." Hamas is also criticized for targeting civilians, firing from populated areas and summarily executing alleged Israeli spies.

Israel is not perfect, and some its policies can serve to give even its closest allies pause. But the UNHRC report can, and should, be read as further proof that Israel makes every reasonable effort to wage war against a determined, indiscriminate enemy with precision and restraint.

National Post

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 04:19 PM

Jim, this thread was about events of recent weeks.
Unfortunately, Israel was not just blameless in those events, but actually praiseworthy, so you once again dragged up this thirty-one year old bit of history, as you have so often before.
No-one else, just you Jim.
I think that there is nothing that has not already been said and said again about it.

Again you accuse me of unsubstantiated claims.
Remember you accused me of making up two incidents from Siegel's testimony?
I substantiated both and you had to apologise twice.
How could you forget?

Starter for ten - despite all the masses of evidence you have been given on the part Israel played in the Sabra Shatila massacre, you have denied that it took no part whatever in the slaughter of up to 3,500 refugees -
No, Israel denies any part in the killings.
I just deny seeing any evidence that contradicts their version.
My mind is open.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM

"But the UNHRC report can, and should, be read as further proof that Israel makes every reasonable effort to wage war against a determined, indiscriminate enemy with precision and restraint."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 05:14 PM

"precision and restraint" is a hollow joke. The National Post sounds like a right-wing rag.

From Wiki:"The National Post is a Canadian English-language national newspaper based in Don Mills, a district of Toronto. The paper is owned by Postmedia Network Inc. and is published Mondays through Saturdays. It was founded in 1998 by media magnate Conrad Black. Black established the Post to provide a voice for Canadian conservatives and to combat what he considered to be a liberal bias in Canadian newspapers[citation needed]. Black built the new paper around the Financial Post, an established financial newspaper in Toronto which he purchased from Sun Media in 1997. Financial Post was retained as the name of the new paper's business section.

The National Post begins to look like the New York Post or Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:19 PM

.
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Palestinian militants likely killed Gaza baby ... U.N. Finally Confirms Hamas, Not Israeli Rocket Killed Gaza Baby ...
U.N. Ties Gaza Baby's Death to Palestinians - NYTimes.com

www.nytimes.com/2013/.../un-ties-gaza-babys-death-to-palestinians....21 hours ago – A Palestinian rocket, not an Israeli airstrike, most likely killed the baby of a ... Over Searing Image of a Father's Agony in Gaza (March 12, 2013) ...

UN disputes Gaza strike on BBC man's house | The Daily Star
www.thedailystar.net/.../un-disputes-gaza-strike-on-bbc-mans-house/Tuesday, March 12, 2013 | 18:17 ... two relatives killed in last November's war in Gaza may have been hit by a misfired Palestinian rocket, a UN agency says.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:24 PM

My own country has been involved in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years, and atrocities always happen in wars, that's what they're about. In Australia they lock up refugees til they go mad or commit suicide, yet many people in Australia are more upset about what happens overseas than what our country does to its Indigenous Australians and to asylum seekers. It's so easy to get outraged about what another country is doing, but so much harder to spend time working to improve things in your own neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 04:57 AM

Keith
Not one single link here concerns the poisoning of Bedouins, the fascist eviction of one racial group to make room for another, the massacre of 3,500 unarmed and helpless refugees, the use of chemicals on human beings and livestock - or any single one of the disgusting claims you have made here - you promised clarification to your claims - you lied.
"Just give me an example Jim.
I promise to substantiate or withdraw."
As you said earlier, the only claims of Israel's innocence in all these atrocities are denials by the perpetrators of the atrocities.
Bruce
Once again you have avoided answering my reply to your question - I take it you are satisfied that I am not denying Israel's right to be listened to.
Over and out on that one.
As far as Hamas's behaviour - start a thread - this one is already to overflowing with lying bullshit to add yet another pile
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM

Not one single link here concerns the poisoning of Bedouins, the fascist eviction of one racial group to make room for another, the massacre of 3,500 unarmed and helpless refugees, the use of chemicals on human beings and livestock - or any single one of the disgusting claims you have made here

No Jim, it is YOU who have claimed all those things but failed to substantiate one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:35 AM

And you continue to lie with your evasions - you have had acres of proof and you refuse to supply a single scrap of your own nor have you attempted to verify a single thing you claim, something you cannot claim of anyone else here - but I sincerely hope you do.
I expected nothing more and was not disappointed - once more you openly lied.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:56 AM

Jim, you accuse Israel of all those ludicrous, extreme crimes against humanity.
Of course Israel denies them so it is up to you to substantiate your claims, and you can not.

It is not just Israel who denies them.
EU countries would have no dealings with a country guilty of such things.
Nor Scandinavia. Nor Canada or any other decent country.
It is all lies.

Israel is hounded at the UN by nasty little dictatorships and military regimes whose rights abuses and crimes leave Israel far behind.
Such states can dominate the General Council and other UN bodies but decent countries understand it is all bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 07:59 AM

Also, Ireland denies it all.

Ireland is keen to deepen its links with Israel, in particular through growth in tourism, commerce and investment, as well as more traditional sectors such as food and drink. I encourage visitors to our website to visit the websites of the tourism, culture, food and business promotion agencies working for the Irish Government, which can be accessed on this webpage. Ireland welcomes your interest and looks forward to supporting your interest in these sectors.

I am very conscious of the popularity of Irish culture in Israel today. It is exciting to see Israeli musicians participating in traditional Irish music "sessions" and bringing out their own CD's. Israeli dancers are also taking to the stage in increasing numbers to learn and perform Irish dance. At the Embassy, we will continue to do all we can to support these and other expressions of Irish culture in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 08:36 AM

Jim,

"As far as Hamas's behaviour - start a thread - this one is already to overflowing with lying bullshit to add yet another pile"


So stop posting the BS you have been. Talk to the thread topic, or open another thread YOURSELF to discuss what happened over 30 years ago.


The entire world except Jim and Don have determined that the Israelis were acting within the UN Resolution concerning arming of Hezboallah in destroying the weapons in Syria.

THAT is the topic of this thread- If you want to castigate Keith for not believing your statements, START ANOTHER THREAD YOURSELF.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM

Keith
FactYou have relied entirely on Israeli denials - nowhere have you produced statements from anything resembling evidence from independent sources
FactThe information you have been given comes from reliable and trusted sources who have no reason to lie, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, The UN, Israeli official and unofficial sources, medical teams, Israeli soldiers who eye-witnessed the massacre...... from reputable sources all over the world
FactThe only independents inquiry into the massacres found Israel totally culpable, which confirms every other independent account you have been given
FactUnless you are able to provide proof that the information you have been given is wrong or "lies", then it stands as fact; with this amount of provided evidence against none of your own, the evidence corroborated and proven evidence stands
FactISRAEL STANDS GUILTY AS CHARGED ON ALL COUNTS
FactNowhere have you provided reliable (in most cases none whatever) links to the claims you have made
FactYou promised to clarify anything you have not made clear
FactYou have failed to do so and made it clear that you don't intend to honour your promise
FactYou have here a bundle of requests for clarification, if you fail to respond you are continuing to lie – publicly
FactYou will in no way respond to this honestly
FactBoth Israel and you have been proved guilty, Israel of mass murder and state terrorism, you of lying to defend that mass murder and State terrorism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:24 AM

""The report does not spare Hamas from criticism. While chastising Israel for the incidents where it struck without warning or apparent military targets, it notes that, "Many, if not the vast majority of the Palestinian attacks on Israel constituted indiscriminate attacks." Hamas is also criticized for targeting civilians, firing from populated areas and summarily executing alleged Israeli spies.

Israel is not perfect, and some its policies can serve to give even its closest allies pause. But the UNHRC report can, and should, be read as further proof that Israel makes every reasonable effort to wage war against a determined, indiscriminate enemy with precision and restraint.""

While I agree, and have repeatedly said, that Hamas actions are deplorable, I would like to know how they could be blamed for firing from populated areas, when they are confined by Israeli action to one big populated area. Land and water are so scarce there is little that could be called rural in the whole of Gaza.

Alao there is a taint of bias in picking on one or two isolated incidents of friendly fire deaths, and extrapolating to the entirely unjustified conclusion that Israel is innocent of the majority of deaths, or that thy are particularly bothered about Gaza civilians dying at their hands.

Indiscriminate is a rather inappropriate description for the use of unguided munitions, since that is the nature of a basic rocket such as are used by Hamas. If they had the capacity to target more accurately, there might be a case for charging them with indiscriminate use, but when the rocket cannot be guaranteed to hit a village with any certainty, let alone a military target within that village, the charge is nonsense.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:33 AM

Oh, right, Don ~~ so it's ok to fire an unreliable weapon, because any deaths it causes aren't indiscriminate?

Not sure I follow your logic.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM

Keith, . I don't hate Israel. I don't like what they are doing. Your ad hominem remarks
vitiate any credible evidence that you might have presented. I know people in Israel and I know just as much about it as you do evidenced by your limited display of knowledge.

I know many Zionists to be warlike and not peaceful.

I also know that war is built into religious cultures but despite that there are plenty of peaceful Jews who think what Israeli government is doing is anathema.

You can call me all the names you want to, Keith, but your evidence is flimsy, and based on almost a fanatical defense of the indefensible. There is no justification for the inhumane practices of the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,ka
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 11:45 AM

No Jim.
The reliable witnesses do not show Israel as complicit.
Israel acknowledged that people should have forseen events and should have acted sooner.
The UN enquiry found them "responsible" only by virtue of them being the occupier.

There is no compelling evidence for any culpability beyond the above.

If Israel was guilty of all your accusations in would be a pariah.
Decent countries including yours do not regard it as such.
It is all bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:41 PM

""precision and restraint" is a hollow joke. The National Post sounds like a right-wing rag."

I note that you avoid commenting on the UNHRC report and instead attack the medium that is commenting on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:56 PM

All right, Bobad. Allow me to comment by citing the report:

"The UNHRC report said that Israel's settlement policies violate article 49 of the fourth Geneva convention, which prohibits the transfer of civilian populations to occupied territory. It says the settlements are "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination."

What's not to understand?

Many countries do consider Israel a pariah. What countries could one deem decent, only those that follow the AIPAC propaganda line? What reliable witnesses? This issue is highly charged by fanatical defenders of the Israeli government. They tend to distort the inhumanity of the Zionist government, and justify its warlike behavior and downplay the exorbitant armaments that Israel possesses making it a force against peace in the world with the aid of the misguided U.S. leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 07:00 PM

Don, get a google map or satellite image of Gaza.
There is far more open land than inhabited land.
Hamas' missiles are indiscriminate and illegal.
Their use is a war crime, and firing them from civilian areas is another war crime.
They are aimed at towns in the hope of murdering ordinary folk and their children.
And, when they use precision weapons, suicide bombs, they explode them on buses crowded with ordinary folk and their children.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 09:19 PM

Mysterious Guest Ka
"The reliable witnesses do not show Israel as complicit."
Absolute ******* nonsense.
Every single eye-witness has testified to Israel's complicity; the medical staff, the Israeli soldiers, the journalists who interviewed the eyewitnesses... all have stated clearly that Israel instigated and assisted in the massacre.
Even the commanders described the killers as "our friends" and reported back the "everything was going to plan".
The eye witness doctor reported what happened and described treating the victims, the nurse said she witnessed and reporting the burial of the bodies and the soldiers observing the massacre said that the commanders were well aware of what was happening and ordered the men to do nothing.
These Israeli soldiers prepared to speak out backed up every single statement that has been made in the press.
The sole independent survey to be carried out found Israel totally complicit; the only reason Israel was not tried for war crimes was because of the UN veto.
Unless you. Like Keith, rule out all these witnesses as bigoted, anti-Semitic or liars you have no case.
If you have any evidence to back up your claims – feel free..... otherwise, stand with Keith as a massacre denier.

Bruce:
".....to discuss what happened over 30 years ago."
You and Keith seem to think that the fact that the Sabra/Shatila massacre happened 30 years ago makes it no longer relevant – as far as I'm concerned it only goes to prove that this is how long Israeli war crimes have been a feature of Middle Eastern life. In fact, the Brits left Palestine to the sound of hand grenades being tossed into occupied houses by "freedom fighters" clearing the ground for a 'Promised Land', and similar events have been taking place with grim regularity ever since – so don't hide behind that particular heap of garbage, there's plenty more here for you to choose from.
If you want to suggest which of all the warring parties is the greatest criminal, I suggest you consult the body count of all of them – particularly those of women, children and old people or just civilians, please treat this as a piece of rhetoric on my part – I don't imagine for a minute.....!
Add to this the fact that the Palestinian rocket attacks that you mob set so much store on as a defence of continuing atrocities, post date Israel's territorial aggression , attempts to control Palestinian economy and way of life and efforts to ethnic cleanse or evict the inconvenient Palestinians to make room for settlers - by at least 20 years
Having accused, along with your dumb buddy, those of us who oppose Israeli terrorism as being 'anti-Semitic', would you say discussion on The Holocaust was not a relevant subject of discussion because it ended 78 years ago? (as you nor Keith appear not to go in for answers, please treat this as another piece of rhetoric)
"open another thread YOURSELF....."
It appears to have escaped your notice that this thread has long drifted from the original topic to take on the more general one of Israel's human rights and war-crimes record – your moronic mate was very much a part of that drift and as far as I am concerned, it is an entirely relevant aspect of this discussion – "thread drift" is one of your "all the lights on but nobody at home" oppo's favourite ploys; it shows a 'chicken -shit streak down the backs of both of you.
As Keith once said after whingeing incessantly about thread-drift and then taking the thread completely out of the area of the subject totally "thread drifts happen" – everybody does it at one time or another and calling foul is merely an extremely spineless way of avoiding difficult or embarrassing subjects.
"The entire world except Jim and Don"
Utter bollocks: the "entire world" has passed no such pronouncement, and should it ever be consulted I have little doubt that the sensible section of it would be as scared shitless as I am at the idea that a terrorist state with a record of atrocities against civilians as long as Keith's list of pronouncements needing qualification, and a nuclear capability, should take it into its head to attack other states with equally dubious records in an area that is a powder keg, thanks to the religious nutters of all persuasions who lurk there.
Don is quite capable of speaking for himself, but my only statement on the OP was just that –the idea of a rogue terrorist state flying about and attacking any nation as it takes their fancy inspires me to check in the garden to see if we have room for a bomb shelter – that is all I have ever said or have to say on a matter I have no great knowledge on.
Now – to our one-to-one dispute:
You are quick and insistent enough to demand answers (even when you've already been given them) ; I have taken the time to responded to your question with what I believe to be an honest answer; please have the common decency (in short supply between you pair of shits) and good manners to acknowledge you have read it and whether it meets with your satisfaction, otherwise, kindly go and piss up your kilt
Yours as ever
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 02:29 AM

ka was me.The witnesses did not back up your version Jim.
The "eye witness doctor" did not even see anything of the massacres.
She was with Siegel in the hospital.
The nurse did not report burials, and only saw soldiers looking towards the camp from outside.
There were lots of soldiers who spoke out and testified at the time.
None were complicit.
The Un enquiry did not find Israel complicit.
Israel acknowledges it had responsibility as the occupying force, and that is all the enquiry said.

We have been through all this on this thread and many previous ones.
There is nothing more to be said Jim.
It is history.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:39 AM

Dr.Ang Swee Chai


[24:30] On 18th September [72 hours in to the killing] a tank came in and ordered all foreigners out of the (Gaza) hospital at gun point. That was the time when we were very worried because we thought that if we are gone they will probably come in and kill our patients. But at the same time you can not argue with a machine gun and we were just forced out. And as I came out of the hospital I saw groups of women and men and children all rounded up by soldiers and while I was passing them one woman tried to give me her baby

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:28 AM

On 16 December 1982, the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide.[41] The voting record[42][43][44]

The delegate for Canada stated: "The term genocide cannot, in our view, be applied to this particular inhuman act".[44] The delegate of Singapore – voting 'yes' – added: "My delegation regrets the use of the term 'an act of genocide' ... [as] the term 'genocide' is used to mean acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group." Canada and Singapore also questioned whether the General Assembly was competent to determine whether such an event would constitute genocide.[44]

The United States commented that "While the criminality of the massacre was beyond question, it was a serious and reckless misuse of language to label this tragedy genocide as defined in the 1948 Convention ...".[44]

Such comments led William Schabas, director of the Irish Centre for Human Rights at the National University of Ireland,[45] to state: "the term genocide ... had obviously been chosen to embarrass Israel rather than out of any concern with legal precision".[44]

The commission's report, Israel in Lebanon, concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were directly or indirectly responsible in the massacres and other killings that have been reported to have been carried out by Lebanese militiamen in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila in the Beirut area between 16 and 18 September

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM

Stringsinger.
Many countries do consider Israel a pariah. What countries could one deem decent

All respected liberal democracies have full and friendly relations with Israel.
Australia, New Zealand, Canada, All European and EU countries icluding Irealand and all Scandinavian countries.

None would if Jim's accusations were true.
They are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:24 AM

"There is nothing more to be said Jim. It is history."
No Keith, any credibility you might once have had is history.
You are the first to mention "genocide" - what on earth has your (once again unlinked) cut-'n-paste got to do with anything except to link Israel to this and other slaughters "Israeli authorities or forces were directly or indirectly responsible in the massacres and other killings" - from your own keyboard!
Do you honestly expect us to believe that hospital staff treating victims at a massacre site didn't know or care enough to find out what was happening?
You dissed Ang Swee Chi's evidence as:
"It is not at all clear how much of that is hers.
It is only taken from a book cover.
Much has been added, and like your other quote is propaganda."
Where on earth did "book cover" come from? It was taken verbatim from a talk she gave.
You have carefully selected the most anodyne piece you can find.

Below are larger sections showing the fuller picture.
Your attitude to Seigal's testimony seems to vaccilate as the mood takes you – one minute she saw nothing, next minute she was on top of the hospital building and taking long walks, viewing it all
You have been given her statement about seeing the Israelis burying the bodies.
Contrary to your claims there are hundreds more accounts of this and other Israeli atrocities.
"There were lots of soldiers who spoke out and testified at the time."
Now you are openly lying again - you have rejected these statements as "unreliable" - if they don't contain facts implicating Israel, why not use them.
Your rejection of the evidence of traumatised Israeli soldiers is probably the lowest you have sunk - and that takes some doing
Jim Carroll

"The 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon killed over 30,000 civilians. The siege of Beirut lasted for 70 days, Beirut was subjected a relentless barrage of air, naval, and artillery bombardment. The Israeli bombardment was random and indiscriminate. Food, electricity and water supplies were cut off - over 500,000 people were driven from their homes. The IDF calculated that they had used some 960 tons of ammunition in trying to destroy the city."

"The US didn't honour its word and three weeks after the PLO evacuation they withdrew the multinational force giving the green light to Israel to invade West Beirut and massacre the Palestinians in the camps."
"The Israelis supervised the operation from their forward command post, a six story building overlooking the camps. From there they gave logistic support and relayed orders to the soldiers on the ground. Concerned that reports of the on-going slaughter would leak out, the soldiers were ordered to continue the killing through out the night - to facilitate this the Israelis lit up the sky with flares all night long. The idea was to kill as many Palestinians as quickly as possible, before international pressure would put a stop to the operation. Over 3000 elderly men, women and children were murdered. Next the evidence had to be buried quickly - so the Israelis send in bulldozers. Houses were packed with bodies and demolished to form mass graves. One such mass grave contained a thousand bodies."

"These are mass graves. You can see the tank tracks - they have just dug up shallow graves and buried all the bodies in the rubble. They have just bulldozed all the houses - actually if you have been watching the television its very much like Jenin [below] recently in Palestine, but on a bigger scale. About 3000 people were killed in those three days, and in this mass grave alone 1000 bodies were buried there."

"I walked towards the sports stadium. I had not found the strength to visit this area before. At sunset, it looked hideous. People had been killed here, people were buried here: I seemed to hear their voices echoing mournfully in the wasteland. This place had been pounded incessantly by Israeli aeroplanes during the siege. During the massacre, it was occupied by the Israelis, and the camp people told me that trucks of men, women and children were taken to the stadium by the Israelis, and many had 'disappeared'."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:43 AM

""Oh, right, Don ~~ so it's ok to fire an unreliable weapon, because any deaths it causes aren't indiscriminate?

Not sure I follow your logic.""

Not surprising, since you chose to misinterpret it.

Given that we have a situation in which two parties are chucking explosives at one another and killing civilans, it is specious to argue that the possessor of the higher tech weaponry cares more about "collateral damage" (how I detest that dehumanising phrase), than the more primitive party, who cannot avoid such damage.

This a logically fallacious argument, advanced only as an apologia for the entirely unjustifiable actions of the better armed bully.

Israel can take the moral high ground only when they drop their hard nosed refusal to talk to Hamas, as evidenced by their actions over the change of the border crossing operator on the Gaza side.

Whether Israel likes it or not, Hamas is a legally elected government and refusing to deal with them will only perpetuate this situation.

Maybe that's what the Israeli government wants?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:58 AM

""The Un enquiry did not find Israel complicit.
Israel acknowledges it had responsibility as the occupying force, and that is all the enquiry said.""

What would you call the statement of the ISRAELI soldier who was ordered to turn back refugees who told him that the Phalangists were slaughtering women and children, refugees who were then chased back toward the camp by an ISRAELI tank?

Was he lying? And if so, to what purpose?

Purely fortuitously they were able to hide out, and survived, but this is clear and irrefutable evidence of active participation.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:06 AM

""The commission's report, Israel in Lebanon, concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were directly or indirectly responsible in the massacres and other killings that have been reported to have been carried out by Lebanese militiamen in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila in the Beirut area between 16 and 18 September""

""ISRAEL AUTHORITIES OR FORCES WERE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE!

Thank you Keith for confirming what we have been saying all along.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM

Jim, Israel accepts that it bears responsibility.
It denies complicity, and there is no evidence for it.

Ellen Siegel gives a full account of her time in the hospital, as does the doctor.
They do not report seeing anything of the massacre.

one minute she saw nothing, next minute she was on top of the hospital building and taking long walks, viewing it all

You claimed I made up her observations from the roof and had to apologise.
The long walk was from the hospital to the edge of the camp and beyond.
She and the doctor were together.

You have been given her statement about seeing the Israelis burying the bodies.
No. You have made that up.


"There were lots of soldiers who spoke out and testified at the time."
Now you are openly lying again - you have rejected these statements as "unreliable"
Not true.
I am suspicious of the ones who only "remembered" long after.

Your quote from Dr.Ang Swee Chai is not a report of what she saw.
It is her opinion of what happened while she was inside the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

Israel accepts and acknowledges responsibility.
They deny complicity.

The soldier and the tank had been ordered to prevent people passing.
They were not complicit in the massacres.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM

"Israel accepts and acknowledges responsibility."
And the rest of the world has declared it complicity - the only unbiased
inquiry to have taken place declared them guilty on all counts.
As you say on one of the few occasions you have been right "denial is not enough".
Ther is a mass of evidence on this site alone to convict them of being war criminals - you have only produced their "denial" to contradict the documented facts.
"Your quote from Dr.Ang Swee Chai is not a report of what she saw."
Her statement is a report (which you attempted to cover up) of what she saw and heard first hand from victims, from Phalanigists who she treated and from Israeli solders she talked to.
What moronic level are you going to reduce this discussion to before you realise that you have only two feet to shoot yourself in and you ran out of those at the beginning?
Your non-arguments are dead in the water - you have refused to qualify any of your claims and by not linking anything you put up you have attempted to disguise the fact that what you have to say is purely your own invention.
You lied about Dr.Ang Swee Chai's contribution being a dust jacket blurb ("possibly written by somebody else" and you edited all the nasty incriminating bits out of what she had to say in order to neutralise them.
A fine mess you've got yourself into this time Stanley!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:09 AM

The doctor only reported hearsay and rumour.
Like she reported rapes and murders in a hospital that never happened.
Like she reported the Jenin massacre that never happened.
She herself saw nothing of the massacre.

Enough Jim.
You have completely taken over this thread and made it into yet another on this old subject with nothing new to add.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:49 AM

You have produced no evidence
You have refused to qualify any of your statements
You have twisted and distorted eye-witness statements by editing them into blandness
You have continually lied to back up your non-existent case
You have been discovered in those lies and have refused to acknowledge that fact
You now seem to be desperately gathering quotes that have no bearing on this discussion and putting them up as some sort of twisted argument (feckin' "genocide" for cryin' out loud)
You claim to have read the information, then you prove you haven't by declaring a piece a dozen years out of date when it was written two years
One minute you claim an eye witness statement as proof of your argument, next minute you say they couldn't possibly have seen what they say.
You have become so frantic in all this that you are now putting up quotes that prove Israel's guilt "ISRAEL AUTHORITIES OR FORCES WERE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE!"
I was wrong when I thought discussing you was a waste of time - you have proved beyond all doubt was a disgustingly despicable little jobbie you really are (only saying that because I am losing the argument!!!)
I really do look forward to our future encounters; your contribution here makes a perfect companion-piece to your immortal 'my opinion - all male Pakistanis are cultural perverts' pearl of wisdom.
Jim Carroll
Speaking of your "Muslim Prejudice" performance - I see one of your star witnesses, Lord Ahmed, has described his being jailed for running down and killing a pedestrian "A Jewish conspiracy" - they always let you down, don't they!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:57 AM

Not really involved in this ~~ tired of The Keith & Carroll Show long since and think it high time a new programme took over:

... but much exercised nevertheless, J, by your last comment. Who always lets whom down, precisely, in what particular & in what context? I get the irony in your tone OK, but cannot for life of me see whither it is directed!
Puzzled

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:34 AM

"Iranian weapons continue to pour into Syria from Iraq but also increasingly along other routes, including via Turkey and Lebanon, in violation of a U.N. arms embargo on Iran, Western officials told Reuters on condition of anonymity. Iraqi and Turkish officials denied the allegations.
Iran's acceleration of support for Assad suggests the Syrian war is entering a new phase in which Iran may be trying to end the battlefield stalemate by redoubling its commitment to Assad and offering Syria's increasingly isolated government a crucial lifeline, the envoys said.
It also highlights the growing sectarian nature of the conflict, diplomats say, with Iranian arms flowing to the Shi'ite militant group Hezbollah. That group is increasingly active on the ground in Syria in support of Assad's forces, envoys say.
"


Under UNR 1701, Israel is within it's rights, ( and in fact ENJOINED by the UN) to stop this flow of arms if it ends up in Lebanon.

Of course, ONLY Israel is expected to follow UNR, and then criticised when it does...


"Alleged Hezbollah violations
As of February 2009, many key points in the resolution remained insufficiently addressed. In a special report, United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon mentions that "Hezbollah continues to refuse to provide any information on the release or fate of abducted soldiers, and places conditions and demands for the release that are far outside the scope of resolution 1701," Ban wrote in the report.[47] The report also points out that Hezbollah has replenished its stock of rockets and missiles in South Lebanon, and is now in possession of 10,000 long-range rockets and 20,000 short-range projectiles.[47]
[edit]Alleged Israeli violations
The Lebanese government claims that Israel has violated the resolution over 7000 times "by crossing Lebanese airspace," waters, and border on an almost daily basis since the implementation of the resolution.[48]
[edit]Alleged Lebanese violations
In 2009, Israel filed a complaint with the U.N. that Lebanon was not complying with the resolution after a Katyusha rocket was fired from Lebanon and landed next to a house in northern Israel and injured three people. The complaint affirmed Israel's right to defend itself and its citizens.[49] Later in 2009, when weapons that Hezbollah were hiding in a civilian home in a Lebanese town near the border of Israel exploded, both Israel and UNIFIL complained that Resolution 1701 was being violated by Lebanon and Hezbollah. The IDF estimates that the number of civilian homes in southern Lebanon that are being used to store weapons are in the hundreds.[50] Israel also criticized the Lebanese army, which is responsible for enforcing the resolution, for cooperating with Hezbollah in making sure that the evidence of the violation of the resolution had been cleared up before allowing U.N. peace keepers to do their job.[51] Two days later, fifteen Lebanese civilians from Kfar Shuba a "group of 15 Lebanese civilians carrying Lebanese and Hizbullah flags crossed into the Israeli occupied Shebaa Farms.[52] "[53] The IDF took no action to the provocation, but stressed that it was a violation of Resolution 1701. The United Nations confirmed that Hezbollah violated the resolution and that the group is rearming.[54]
[edit]"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:53 AM

You have become so frantic in all this that you are now putting up quotes that prove Israel's guilt "ISRAEL AUTHORITIES OR FORCES WERE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE!"

Jim, did you not know that that was the conclusion of Israel's own enquiry?
They acknowledge and accept responsibility.
The danger should have been foreseen.
They should have reacted quicker.
Responsible but not complicit Jim.

I can substantiate anything you ask me to, but you are frightened to ask because you know I do not lie.

Your accusations are false, and that is why your country and all decent democracies have full and friendly relations with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 10:12 AM

I take it you have no intentions of doing the decent thing Bruce - didn't expect otherwise
You have my position on all this
Unless there is anything further.....
"Who always lets whom down, precisely"
Keith's star witness to "male Pakistani perverts" - who else?
I do hope you're not still trying to pin your anti-Semite tag on me
"tired of The Keith & Carroll Show "
Then don't get involved - simple as that
"I can substantiate anything you ask me"
Oh for ***** sake!
You have been asked, you have refused to answer
The rest is silence!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 10:59 AM

I CAN substantiate anything.
You dare not ask.
All bluster.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 11:25 AM

""Israel accepts and acknowledges responsibility.
They deny complicity.

The soldier and the tank had been ordered to prevent people passing.
They were not complicit in the massacres.""

The soldier was convinced enough about the killings to report several times to his immediate superior, so they knew something nasty was happening.

To accept responsibility and deny complicity is pure sophistry. Do you understand what is meant by accessory before, during and after the fact, to mass murder of innocent civilians?

Because, my friend, that is what Israel is guilty of, and that is what you are defending with weasel words.

Israeli forces acting under the orders of their government introduced Christian Phalangist forces who, they were well aware detested all Muslims, into a camp full of refugees under the pretence of weeding out terrorists, and then blocked every avenue of escape, even turning back terrified people who were obviously unarmed civilians to be slaughtered.

And who was it that supplied the bulldozer to hide the bodies and arranged to build a huge stadium over the mass grave?

Even the Mafia tended to put their kills into bridge supports one by one.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 11:33 AM

800.
No Don.
Serious errors of judgement made individuals responsible for what happened.
That is not at all the same as collusion or complicity, and there is no evidence of it.

Bulldozers and other equipment were supplied for the legitimate task of clearing the area of fighters.

No weazel words.
No complicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM

"
I take it you have no intentions of doing the decent thing Bruce - didn't expect otherwise
"

I have been doing so, to the best of MY ability.





What have YOU done about the 80,000 plus dead Syrians that Hezboallah has been helping to kill with Iranian weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:07 PM

"What have YOU done about the 80,000 plus dead Syrians that Hezboallah"
I realise I am totally wasting my time trying to get you to substantiate any lying accusation here, but if you can give me any evidence whatever that I have given any support to Hezboallah or any religiously driven bunch of nutters I will happily make a substantial donation to any charity of your choice - 1. 2. 3. 4. 5....... and counting.
You are about on par with your friend's lack of self-respect.
I am a pacifist and an atheist - I detest all wars and believe religious ones are the worst and most dangerous - the only support I have ever given on these matters is to the non combatant men women and children who are the victims of Israeli terrorism and its racist/fascist behaviour.
If you have any evidence to the contrary, please put it up.
On the other hand, you and your dumb-fuck mate have consistently supported some of the worst acts of human rights abuses and war crimes by an expansionist terrorist state with nuclear capability.
Your fick friend stood out for not lifting a finger to assist the Syrian rebels with practical assistance, on the contrary, he identified and defended the selling of small arms ammunition to the Assad regime and then suggested that it would have been better if they (Assad's butchers) had been supplied with "riot control gear to quash the Arab Spring protests - if you doubt this the 'Homs Horror' site says it all and more.
He has yet to comment on the British Government's change of heart after allowing (how many did you say) people to be slaughtered by one of Britain's trading partners and allies.
"I have been doing so, to the best of MY ability".
Please try harder - it hasn't registered on the clapometer yet.
You're really are not very good at this, are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:08 PM

'I do hope you're not still trying to pin your anti-Semite tag on me'
.,,.

No indeed Jim; but I don't quite see the relevance of this 'hope' to the present discourse re Lord Ahmed & his apparent anti-semitism?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 02:09 PM

Just a topping and tailing aside to our failed and hopefully departed friend Mike.
Jim Carroll
BTW I much appreciated and partly agree with your comments on the Barry Norman list - lots of films that should be there and a number that shouldn't IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 02:44 PM

Israel's expansion of Jewish settlements is illegal. If its bloody incursions into Palestinian lands and other countries is not deemed illegal by Israeli government leaders then there is something immoral about their view of "law".

Hamas is a reactor, not an instigator. I will make a bet that if Israel were to curtail its illegal wars and expansion and recognize the sovereign rights of Palestinians that Hamas would be quieted and their actions abated.

In the meantime, Israel is a war-mongering country armed to the teeth, now with the present leadership at the helm. Palestinians are just trying to survive in an open air concentration camp.

The U.S., unfortunately, can't be an honest broker in this conflict.

For anything meaningful to happen, all hostilities must cease. There is no "side" in this issue that will solve the problem of co-existence between Palestinians and Israel. As it stands now, any militant partisanship on the part of Israel or Hamas will fall into the vortex of continuing battles, action and reaction.

As is Jim Carroll, I too am an atheist and a pacifist and see no reasonable solution in an Israeli or Islamic theocracy. To quote someone recently, "Science leads to advancement in society and religion leads to war."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM

A bit of a slow-burn response, Jim, to your previous point about Lord Ahmed and the way that he had 'let Keith down'. There seems to be an odd non-sequitur in your thinking. Just because he is clearly wrong on this occasion in attempting, absurdly, to excuse his imprisonment for a very dangerous crime by pretending it was all the result of a conspiracy against him, it surely does not follow that his expression on a previous occasion of disapproval and embarrassment at the conduct of some of his co-nationals and co-religionists was either ill-judged or insincere. It is often the case [indeed, probably so with all of us] that one can be right on some occasions and wrong on others. Why even (cover your ears Mr Godwin!) Hitler was right about smoking: I think his formulation that "Cigarettes were the red man's revenge on the white man for gin" one of the most brilliant of aperçus; and my saying so doesn't make Auschwitz OK by any stretch of the imagination, does it?

So, Lord A could have been right about the predatory Pakistani gangs but wrong about the Jewish conspiracies to bring him down -- couldn't he now?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:15 PM

Keith, it seems to me that your reasoning is not only inaccurate but based on a system of belief that compels you to call other points of view lies. I see this as a fanatic devotion rather than an attempt to explain your position since the discussion has turned so ad hominem that there is no valuable information to be gained by your diatribes.

If you really believe what you say, a more measured and thoughtful tone would be in order. Your evidence would carry more weight.

As it stands, I have a traditional heritage of Judaism from my mother and am familiar with many Sabras, and in no way do I hate them. I do, however, recognize a warlike pattern in some but not all. I wonder if you, yourself, have a Jewish heritage?
I wonder what motivates your rabid defense?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM

"Hitler was right about smoking:"
But he wasn't right about slaughtering Jews
"So, Lord A could have been right about the predatory Pakistani gangs but wrong about the Jewish conspiracies to bring him down -- couldn't he now?"
Seems to me that bot are racist/cultural generalisations, are part of tha same mindset and are remarkably similar and equally detestable - but that, I suppose, depends where you stand on racist generalisations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:17 PM

As promised - Exerpts from Amnon Kapeliouk's
Jim Carroll

SHALL BE ACCUSED OF DEATH
After that, the three honorable magistrates declared that the responsibility of Begin, Sharon, Eitan and others is an indirect responsibility. The best response to this declaration came from Amos

Oz, one of the most prominent Israeli writers. He wrote:
He who invites the ripper of Yorkshire to spend a couple of nights in an orphanage of young girls cannot claim, upon seeing the heap of corpses, that he came to an understanding with the ripper whereby the latter would only wash the children's heads.

Novelist Yitzhar Smilanski commented with irony: "We have released famished lions into the arena. They devoured the people, therefore, the lions are the guilty party."

According to paragraph 298 of the Israeli penal code of 1977:
"Whoever causes the death of a person through Commission or omission, shall be accused of murder."

Paragraph 26 of the same code defines accomplices to murder and considers them directly responsible. Israeli responsibility was direct before the beginning of the massacre, and so much the more after the entry of the "Lebanese Forces" into the camps.
At 4:00 P.M. on Friday, twenty-four hours after the beginning of the carnage, the Israeli chief of staff held a meeting with the Phalangist command. According to the summary made by the Mossad (The Institute for State Security - Israel's intelligence agency) representative at the meeting:

The Chief of Staff expressed his positive impression received from the statement by the Phalangist forces and their behavior in the field and concluded that they continue action, mopping up the empty camps south of Fakhani until tomorrow at 5:00 A.M., at which time they must stop their action due to American pressure. (Final Report, p. 37).

This paragraph is extremely important because it confirms first of all: that the Israeli high command permitted the assailants to continue the carnage for an additional thirteen hours (in fact, a few more hours than that). It also reveals that American, not Israeli pressure, was exerted to stop the massacre as soon as possible. Finally, the statement verifies that the camps were empty whereas Israeli leaders continued to insist that "2000 terrorists" remained behind in Beirut after the evacuation of the PLO as stipulated by the Habib Agreement in August 1982.[12] Israeli officials reiterated that the task of "purifying" the camps was delegated to the Phalangists in order to spare Israeli lives and prevent further losses among Israeli soldiers in Lebanon. However, if an actual fact there were hundreds of heavily-armed Palestinian fighters in the camps, no one under any circumstances would have even dared to send in a unit of 150 Phalangists of mediocre fighting ability. The number of Phalangist militiamen participating in the massacre was later increased to 400. Still, the assailants suffered minimal casualties, namely, two dead and two slightly injured.
In light of the abundant evidence and testimonies, it is inconceivable that Generals Sharon and Eitan, the architects of the Sabra and Shatila operation, did not anticipate what was going to happen in both camps. After all, according to the Commission's report, Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan hoped "that in the final analysis, the Phalangist excesses would not be on a large scale.'' (Final Report , p. 77). Thus, the real objective was a small massacre to intimidate the Palestinians and cause them to flee Lebanon -a new Deir Yassin, with the Phalangists interposed this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:32 PM

compels you to call other points of view lies

I never have and never would, but you saying that Israel restricts food to Gaza is not a point of view.
It is an assertion, and happens to be false.

If you asserted that knowing it to be false, it was a lie.

If you did not know it was false, it was just ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:42 PM

"Hamas is a reactor, not an instigator."

You are so full of shit it isn't even funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM

BTW Mike
I once asked you if it would offend you if I described all Jews as tending to be usurers, you replied it would = we are in agreement
Yet here, as elsewhere, you seem to be suggesting that all Muslims tended to be paedophiles = we are not
This is my basis for believing you to be a hypocrite with double standards.
I really don't think we should continue with this.
Bye
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:20 PM

I have suggested no such thing, Jim. I was talking about Lord Ahmed and nobody else ~~ can you show me, please, where Lord Ahmed ever suggested such a thing. You get confused when these matters come up, Jim. As I have said before, you remind me of Football Crazy Brother Paul: the resolute terror of ever appearing to condone any criticism of any ethnicity has taken away the little bit of sense you had.

Still, I agree, let us not continue too far along this road, as we know that nothing but grief and ill-temper and abuse will be found at the end of it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:56 AM

Just a topping and tailing aside
Right on que with your "fick friend" personal abuse.
Every time!

It does not help you Jim.
Your denigration of Israel as a "terrorist state" is not accepted by one single progressive liberal democracy in the world.
It is simply not true.

You can download the whole of your book, and the whole contents of Iranian Press TV, Electronic Intifada and all the other nasty, hate filled propaganda sites whose lies you assiduously soak up, gullible dupe that you are.
No-one is fooled.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:09 AM

I'm talking in general terms Mike - the condemning of races and cultures wholesale because they are Muslim or because they are Jews, or whatever.
Keith used Ahmed and other Muslims to back up his disgusting claim that Muslims are a threat to society because of their culture.
"condone any criticism of any ethnicity"
You really can't be let get away with that particular piece of dishonesty the type of which is used by both Keith and Bruce on a regular basis. Both make such dishonest accusations in a hit-and-run manner and fall silent when challenged. I suggest you look at Bruce's latest offering.
I do not "condone any criticism of any ethnicity" as you so dishonestly put it - I don't believe such flaws have been proven to exist, certainly not to the extent of an entire gender of an entire culture being a latent or active threat to society; neither do those involved in dealing with the problems we were discussing when Keith made his horrific statement - DO YOU (this is not a rhetorical question, I really would appreciate an answer)?
Such suggestions have been used throughout history to excuse the abusing and terrorising of entire races and cultures - I believe the Nazis put great deal of time and effort into 'scientifically proving' that the Jews were cultural and ethnic degenerates.
In Germany it was motivation for systematic mass extermination, it has been a justification for slavery, apartheid, pogroms, colonisation, religious wars.... Today it is used to instigate and terrorise men, women and children of all ages, from ethnic minorities, 'Paki bashing', pouring petrol through letterboxes.... Recently in Ireland we have had a spate of arson attacks on the homes of Travellers who have been forcibly settled and not so long ago in the North ex-paramilitary groups with time on their hands took to to attacking the homes of European economic migrants.
If you believe that 'cultural flaws' have been proven to be the cause of Muslims pimping underage girls (that was Keith's argument) point us to your evidence, and if you claim I have ever defended such crimes because of my fondness for any particular racial or cultural group, please show where I have - clever-clever references to football songs doesn't hack it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:26 AM

If you believe that 'cultural flaws' have been proven to be the cause of Muslims pimping underage girls (that was Keith's argument)

Not true Jim.
My case was just that there is an over-representation.
It was true then, and has been proved true again and again, in case after case since then.

The cultural explanation came from others who were mostly, like Ahmed, of that community.
I just said I believed it, in the absence of any other explanation.

Do you have a better one?
My mind is open.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:44 AM

"You lose."
Sure I do Keith - I have been totally overwhelmed by your tsunami of evidence and the deafening outcry of support you have been given.
"...nasty, hate filled propaganda sites"
Amos Oz, Yitzhar Smilanski, The Israeli penal code of 1977, Ha'aretz, Jews For Justice, Rabbis For Justice, Israeli soldier eye-witnessed to a massacre, Ellen Siegel, Dr.Ang Swee Chai , the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, The Inequality Report Unicef, Citizen Action, The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Times, New York Times, The Daily Mail, The Washington Post, NBC World News, Reuters, Robert Fisk, The BBC.......... not to mention the many thousands of victims of and eyewitnesses to massacres and other atrocities whose race, religion or culture makes their word unacceptable and so, not worth being presented here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:45 AM

DO YOU (this is not a rhetorical question, I really would appreciate an answer)?~~~
.,,
And quite justly, Jim. For a start, I most certainly do not believe there are any genetic 'inferiorities' in any demographic, which sort of belief is the basis of racism. But this does not, to my mind, obviate the possibility of certain ingrained traditional or cultural factors, as distinct from any genetic factors, playing a baleful part in the attitudes of some members of certain communities. After all, since you and not Godwin this time have raised the topic ~~ the Nazis contrived for a period to brainwash an entire nation into beliefs which produced consequences which we all now rightly deplore. Do you, then, deny the very possibility that certain imams, Southern Christian fundamentalist preachers, militant political demagogues, etc, could have had a comparable effect on some parts, lesser or greater, of some particular demographies ~~ as it might be small groups of adolescent or post adolescent males of a certain minority demograph conditioned by certain teachings of some of their elders to despise the conduct of some young females of the 'host community' as being contrary to the moralities of their own tradition, thus self-justifying them to exploit them in certain ways?

I honestly believe that entirely dismissing even the possibility of such phenomena as self-evidently 'racist' is a mistaken sort of knee-jerk response, Jim ~~ whence ref to a certain comic song whose underlying meaning, relating to the unfortunate effects of an all-consuming obsession, seems to me to be relevant.

Hope this helps

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:51 AM

,i>, Ellen Siegel, Dr.Ang Swee Chai , the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, The Inequality Report Unicef, Citizen Action, The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Times, New York Times, The Daily Mail, The Washington Post, NBC World News, Reuters, Robert Fisk, The BBC

I used most of those to support my view too.
I did not use sites such as Iranian Press TV, Electronic Intifada and all the other nasty, hate filled propaganda sites whose lies you so assiduously soak up, gullible dupe that you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM

To continue, Jim, as to what appears to me to be your attitude to the topic. You appear to me to perceive yourself as uniquely possessed of some sort of infallible built-in instamatic racism-detector, some device which goes tiktiktik if certain words, as might be the words 'Pakistani, Bradford, abuse' occur in any contiguity, whatever the context or the point being made: even tho that point may be one that has been attested to by a host of thoroughly respectable authorities, Muslim & other, in addition, say, to Ahmed [who, I repeat, could anyhow have been right then even if wrong now, a point you have chosen not to address as yet] as just cited by Keith; one phrase of whose you habitually take out of context to quote triumphantly back at him as if it had the force of Holy Writ, an act of desperation which works to the complete conviction of absolutely nobody, whenever this geiger-thing of yours gets going.

Well; some news for you ~~ its programming is defective, as evidenced, for instance, by the authorities I have just referred to. I should replace it or get it reprogrammed if I were you; before it really does, as it has long threatened to do, succeed in "rob[bing] you of the little bit of sense you had".

Would you care to comment in your turn?

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM

"is a mistaken sort of knee-jerk response, Jim"
You may or may not be right, but until we have some solid proof with facts and figures to go on, these are the rantings of a racist nut-case – what little research that has been carried out is virtually non-existent and comes with a warning that it would be totally wrong and malicious to draw any racial; conclusions from any findings.
The lengths that have been gone to on this forum (largely by one individual) top prove that your friendly neighbourhood Pakistani is a latent (at best) pervert is openly racist and, had it taken place outside the sanctuary of an internet discussion forum, would breach all the laws of incitement to race hatred.
As he has just made crystal clear, the guilty party still holds views that would have him rejected from BNP membership for extremism and is happy to continue expressing them on this forum.
I don't demand that you or anybody stands up to be counted on this or any other issue, but I didn't expect you to support it in the way you have – didn't see that one coming.
Such stuff are Holocausts made of
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 06:51 AM

Cross posted - can't be arsed with the other completely ingenuous garbage
Really - Mike, you're beginning to sound like Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:13 AM

And you are continuing to sound like Jim; which, for reasons adduced, ingenuous or otherwise, I am entirely unconvinced by.

Just as a for-instance ~~ you have made no response to the distinction I made above between irrational genetic disapproval, which is racism; and distaste induced by certain aspects of certain traditions &/or cultures, which isn't ~~ or, if you think it is, demonstrate how; or continue to prove yourself a knee-jerk analogue to a Football Crazy.

It's all v well to get hoity-toity and fastidious; but you issued me a challenge which I responded to. I did likewise back, which you didn't.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM

To expand ~~ you write

"a warning that it would be totally wrong and malicious to draw any racial; conclusions from any findings"

But that is exactly what nobody has been doing: they have been drawing CULTURAL, not RACIAL conclusions. Can you really not see that distinction? If not, I really do despair!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

"But that is exactly what nobody has been doing: they have been drawing CULTURAL"
Ho Hum - Pakistanis (Keith's main target) are a race, not a culture)IT IS DEEPLY AND DANGEROUSLY RACIST TO DESCRIBE "ALL MALE PAKISTANIS" AS CULTURALLY INCLINED TO FUCKING AND PIMPING UNDERAGE YOUNG WOMEN keep up Mike
You really should have got yourself a longer spoon - your brain cells seem to be joining Keiths on the floor
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:27 AM

Pakistanis are not a race ~~ they are a nationality. You might as well say the French are a race, or the Italians. You would denounce it as racism with your mindset to point out that the French use more garlic in their cooking than some other Europeans; or say that they are being racist in calling us rosbifs because it is our culture to eat lots of that, & the reverse with frogs.

Ho hum right back to you. You are knee-jerkingly incapable of taking my point; so I shan't make it again.

Bye-bye

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:42 AM

On a related topic ( Syrian weapons use that affects Israel...)



Israel's military intelligence chief says Syria's Assad readying to use chemical weapons
   T
By Associated Press, Published: March 14

JERUSALEM — Israel's military intelligence chief says Syria's embattled president, Bashar Assad, is preparing to use chemical weapons.

Maj. Gen. Aviv Kochavi told a security conference in the coastal town of Herzliya that Assad is stepping up his offensive against rebels trying to oust him.

Kochavi claims Assad is making advanced preparations to use chemical weapons, but has not yet given the order to deploy them.

He did not disclose information about why he thinks Assad is preparing to use them.

Israel has long expressed concerns that Assad's stockpile of chemical weapons could end up in the hands of groups hostile to Israel like Hezbollah or al-Qaida inspired organizations.

Israel has kept out of Syria's civil war, but it is concerned that violence could spill over the border into northern Israel.






But Jim would complain if Israel takes any action to keep those tens of thousands of Syrians from being gassed. And no one else is about to take action...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:53 AM

""Bulldozers and other equipment were supplied for the legitimate task of clearing the area of fighters.""

More weasel words. You know precisely what those bulldozers were used for, and so did the Israelis. Added to which, there is no evidence of any fighters or any arms and ammunition being brought out which might have substantiated the reasons given, by Israel, for deploying their tame terorists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:58 AM

Added to which, there is no evidence of any fighters or any arms and ammunition being brought out which might have substantiated the reasons given, by Israel, for deploying their tame terorists.

Yes there is Don.
You have not looked.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM

""You can download the whole of your book, and the whole contents of Iranian Press TV, Electronic Intifada and all the other nasty, hate filled propaganda sites whose lies you assiduously soak up, gullible dupe that you are.""

Nasty hate filled propaganda sites like Associated Press, UNHRA, B'tselem and Israeli soldiers, Canadian doctors and nurses, as well as eye witness accounts of the Gaza victims of various Israeli incursions over a period of years, and equally graphic descriptions of the way Israeli settlers treat West Bank Palestinians?

Don't see too bad a balance of opinion in that lot and Israel don't fare well in the reports.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:29 AM

""Yes there is Don.
You have not looked.""

Oh yes! Sorry, I forgot.

ISRAEL SAID SO,...RIGHT?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:59 AM

Pakistanis are not a race"
You are as aware as I am that 'racism' is used to refer to generalised attacks on nationalities, cultures, ethnic groups.... and is a disgusting use of semantics to attempt to disguise that fact.
" perceive yourself as uniquely possessed of some sort of infallible built-in instamatic racism-detector"
You've used this spinelessly dishonest argument before "self-appointed spokesman" etc. It was unpleasantly inaccurate then and it still is.
I get involved in these arguments because they concern me – I was brought up to fear racism; my father volunteered to fight in Spain because he felt that stopping Franco might just stop Hitler's gallop, as did numerous Jews who fought with him.
His brother, my Uncle Jerry, a decorated war-hero, was among those who were present at the opening up of one of Europe's concentration camps; the experience traumatised him.
These subjects disturb me enough to have tried to understand them and am happy to learn more from these discussions.
Your sneeringly dismissive attitude indicates that they don't disturb you to the same extent.
This discussion is over – I wish you and your friend every happiness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: goatfell
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 10:25 AM

It's about time something was done about Israel which is good because they have been getting away with for so long.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM

Don, New York Times.
The Israelis began to enter the city proper around 5 A.M., according to Mr. Sharon's subsequent statement to the Israeli Parliament. His troops quickly began seizing key intersections. At some locations, fierce gun battles erupted between Israeli soldiers and Moslem militiamen.

The Israelis skirted the Palestinian refugee camps, making no attempt to enter them. There appear to have been exchanges of fire between the Israelis and some individuals in the camps, but these were minor.

By Wednesday afternoon, sniper fire and Israeli shelling had begun around the Sabra and Shatila camps, and it was intensifying.

A spokesman in East Beirut for the Israeli Army, formally known as the Israel Defense Forces, issued the following statement that day: ''The I.D.F. is in control of all key points in Beirut. Refugee camps harboring terrorist concentrations remain encircled and closed. The I.D.F. calls on citizens to return to normal activity and on all terrorists and other armed persons to lay down their arms.''

Around 6 A.M. Thursday, shellfire and gunshots could be heard in the Sabra camp in the vicinity of Gaza Hospital, according to Dr. Witsoe. Although the night had been calm, new groups of wounded people were streaming into the medical center. Israeli Shelling Reported

The artillery fire, many of these patients later said, appeared to be coming from Israeli positions overlooking the camp to the west. Armed elements inside Sabra may also have been firing at targets outside the camp.

According to Zaki, he spoke to a blond, Arabic-speaking Israeli officer who identified himself only as Rami. They spoke near the Bir Hassan post office, across from the stadium. The Israeli perimeter around the camp ran through this area. "I told him I saw a woman shot in the hand who said Haddad men were k illing people," Zaki recalled. "I admitted we had guns in our homes b ut we did not want to fight and were prepared to give them to the I sraelis.

"He told me to go back to the camp and have everyone from age 13 to 50 to bring his weapons here and that I had until 5 P.M.

Nurse Ellen Siegel.
After the assassination of President Gemayel, the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) decided to enter West Beirut. They also ordered the Phalange militia to enter the camps "to search and mop up." This referred to any PLO fighters who might remain there -- but of these there were few.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 10:48 AM

Bobad, ad hominem arguments will not reinforce your knowledge of this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 11:27 AM

I forgot to add blatant liar as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 11:57 AM

"You are as aware as I am that 'racism' is used to refer to generalised attacks on nationalities, cultures, ethnic groups.... and is a disgusting use of semantics to attempt to disguise that fact."
.,,.
I am 'aware' of no such thing: nationality is nationality, culture is culture, & race ['ethnicity' if you prefer] is race.

But talking of semantics, 'disgusting use of', it has been ever a recognised ploy & technique of the Loony Left of which you are such an ornament, to use words in their own specialist sense ['imperialist', 'bourgeois'...], expecting the rest of us to adopt and respect the same emotive overtones as you lot do. The scattergun, kneejerk use of 'racist' is simply the latest example of this technique. Odd that, when I once, a couple of years back, OP'd a thread on this very subject ~~         RE: BS: 'Racism' a catch-all accusation? Feb 2011 -- you, yourself, Jim Carroll, should have posted agreeing with, & deploring, the proposition. But, then intellectual [as distinct from doctrinaire political] consistency has ne'er been one of your characteristics SFAICS.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:09 PM

To remind, as being I think relevant here, this was my OP, in which, note, I explicitly refuted the admissability of "Italian" as a racist term -

Subject: BS: 'Racism': catch-all accusation?
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 10:05 AM
I gather from an article by Gabriele Marcotti on the back page of 'The Game' section of today's Times that Gennaro  Gattuso has attempted to justify his attacks on Joe Jordan during and after AC Milan's recent match against Tottenham Hotspur by accusations of "racism", which, it appears, Mr Jordan must contrive to confute.  
The article is oddly reticent as to what Signor Gattuso accuses Mr Jordan of saying;  but I gather from Google that the alleged words are "Italian bastard".  I can understand  possible objection to the second word, but can see nothing "racist" about it.  As to the first, Signor Gattuso is Italian, and I fail to see any "racist" connotations in a statement of this fact there either. Even if Mr Jordan's words have been accurately reported, which he categorically denies, what on earth is supposed to be "racist" in accurately mentioning a European person's nationality? 
I carry away from this incident a distinct impression that "racism" has become a sort of catch-all complaint when anyone feels aggrieved for any reason; an unanswerable "yah-boo" justification for any sort of immoderate response ~~ even where no reference to "race" as such has in fact occurred.
If so, then surely this is a trend to be vigorously resisted, as liable to diminish and disinfect any genuine instance where racism is indeed at issue.

And here is your response ~~

Date: 26 Feb 11 - 10:35 AM
Sorry Mike, can't see a lot to disagree with here.
People do over-use the term racism, which, as you say, devalues the coin, but terms like 'PC' and 'nanny state' are equally overused as screens to hide a multitude of sins.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:46 PM

More
Jim Carroll

"The carnage began immediately. It lasted forty hours without interruption. The Israelis were able to observe the operations from the roof (seventh floor) of the three Lebanese buildings they had occupied since September 3. They were equipped with telescopes and binoculars with night-vision. In reality, they did not need this equipment because they were only 200 meters away from the major location of the carnage. During these two days, the building swarmed with officers. There was an endless flow of traffic in and out; vehicles of the signal corps, armored vehicles and different units all around. To quote one Israeli officer, watching from the roof of these buildings was like watching "from the front row of a theater." Furthermore, Israeli forward positions manned by paratrooper units were very close to the edges of the camps, and Israeli "Merkava" tanks commanded a view of the area. In addition, Battalion 501 of the Lebanese Army was stationed at the Kuwaiti Embassy traffic circle."

"In the United States, these revelations provoked great embarrassment in the Jewish community, especially after President Reagan attributed to Israel a large share of the responsibility for the massacre. In a statement marked by unprecedented harshness toward the Jewish ally, Reagan recalled that Israel had justified its occupation of West Beirut by stressing that "its move would prevent the sort of tragedy which has now occurred." Furthermore, a high-ranking American official confirmed that the United States "would be extremely surprised if Israel was really unaware of what happened in the camps.'' He added: "Israeli forces evidently controlled the whole sector where the massacres occurred." This time, the Americans were not sparing in their criticism of the Begin government. According to an Israeli journalist, the Americans did so, "perhaps because they themselves felt part of the responsibility. After all, they were the ones who gave Israel the green light to launch its war on Lebanon. The massacre is a consequence of that war that could have been anticipated."

The Chief of Staff expressed his positive impression received from the statement by the Phalangist forces and their behavior in the field and concluded that they continue action, mopping up the empty camps south of Fakhani until tomorrow at 5:00 A.M., at which time they must stop their action due to American pressure. (Final Report, p. 37).
This paragraph is extremely important because it confirms first of all: that the Israeli high command permitted the assailants to continue the carnage for an additional thirteen hours (in fact, a few more hours than that). It also reveals that American, not Israeli pressure, was exerted to stop the massacre as soon as possible. Finally, the statement verifies that the camps were empty whereas Israeli leaders continued to insist that "2000 terrorists" remained behind in Beirut after the evacuation of the PLO as stipulated by the Habib Agreement in August 1982.[12]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 01:09 PM

"People do over-use the term racism, which, as you say, devalues the coin,"
It has been pointed out to me since (buried somewhere here) that it is common to describe sweeping generalisations about West Indians, Jews, Powell's "Rivers of Blood", colour bars, "No Traveller" signs, "Whites only".... as racist.
I accept that as a fact and it seems a piece of evasive spite to insist on - what, "anti-Pakistani-ism.....what?
I never thought you would sink as low as this to defend your approval of Keith's RACIST shite, seems I over-estimated you again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 01:25 PM

""People do over-use the term racism, which, as you say, devalues the coin, but terms like 'PC' and 'nanny state' are equally overused as screens to hide a multitude of sins.""

Hardy unqualified agreement though Mike! In fact, heavily qualified and the reservations ar clear and honest, wouldn't you say?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 01:28 PM

Problem solved.

"Majority of the Pakistanis are classified as Caucasoids, while their are sizable minority of Capoids and Mongoloids. South Asia has had a history of migrations and invasions from different parts of the world leading to population exchange, which has blurred the lines of race.
In modern Pakistan, Ethnic groups are a measure of race more than the color of skin or eyebrow ridges. Some of the most prevalent ethnic groups in Pakistan are Punjabis (who are mixed), Pushtuns (who are majority Caucasians), Sindhis (who are mixed) and Baluch (who are majority Caucasians). Capoid groups include Brahui, while Hazara, Tajik and Uzbek groups are Mongoloids."

I solemnly declare that from now on I shall refer to Keith and his friends, whover they may be, as "multi-racialists"
Does that fit the bill
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 01:33 PM

Wow - what a foot-in-mouth!!
Of course that should mean MULTIRACISTS
Sincerest apologies to Keith for maligning his life-long dedication to his philosophy!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 01:36 PM

I have 'defended' nothing or no-one in particular during this current exchange, Jim; apart from myself over my attitude to certain terminology whose usage you accused me of being 'aware' of, to which I demonstrated that I had previously shown that I was 'aware' of nothing of the sort, but on the contrary disagreed basically with its assumptions; a proposition to which, at the time, you expressed agreement ~~ & it was, so, agreement, Don; however enthusiastic or otherwise, and however hedged about, it may have been. There was, after all, no compulsion on Jim to have contributed to that thread at all, was there? Yet he did so, in terms of at least qualified assent. I do not think either of you can deny that assertion.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 02:34 PM

Bobad and Keith, I understand your passionate defense of Israel but I think you both are
not serving your self interests by having the U.S. and the Israeli military complex hoodwink you with their propaganda. Both Israel and the U.S. are armed to the teeth and there are some who are getting wealthy at your expense. I don't like to see you buy into this deception.

The U.S. has supplied Israel with arms and they have a nuclear device that was aided by the U.S. This is common knowledge all over the world and the countries you have cited, Keith, not all have good relations with Israel. That's not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 02:44 PM

This is common knowledge all over the world and the countries you have cited, Keith, not all have good relations with Israel. That's not true.

Yes it is.
Ireland for instance.
Did you even read the quote from their embassy web site?
Did you know they buy arms from Israel?
Jim should have a word with the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 02:53 PM

" a proposition to which, at the time, you expressed agreement "
And I have since had time and reason to reflect on my saytement over a couple of years and have come, largely through my encounters with Keith to realise that to couch my opposition in careful wording is to allow him to continue to use this forum as a racist - whoops, sorry,multiracist platform.
I believe you are using semantics to protect Keith from his own racism, and of late, his over-indulgence of the same.
I won't ask you for your opinion on his present performance but I would have thought......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:10 PM

Well, to tell the truth, Jim, as I have hinted before, I am not really following the thread that closely; but some questionable statement about what actually constitutes 'racism' and whether other sorts of hostility were the same thing or a discrete phenomenon, lured me back a few posts ago. In general, it is all very predictable. I should have thought that you and Keith, and the other occasional interlopers like me and Don & Bruce & Stringsinger [who OP'd this one I think] & Bobad, could all predict what was going to be said next, and be a bit like the group in the old joke who tell jokes to one another just by shouting out numbers. I don't think my formulation 'The Keith & Carroll Show', is really all that inapposite, do you? All a bit 'mulberry-bush', in fact, isn't it? Honest now...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:28 PM

There is no unanimity about Ireland receiving arms from Israel. The academic community is incensed by this and refuses to recognize Israeli academia as a result.

The fact that Irish leaders accept arms from Israel isolates Zionists as war merchants.
The only reason that this could take place is that there is pressure from the U.S. to
complete their hegemonic self interest and make more money for the arms dealers,
and reinforce the motives of the Pentagon. In the meantime, the people suffer by supporting these arms merchants by paying taxes to keep them in business.

Israel and the U.S. are the chief aggressors and destroyers of world peace with the
largest supplies of arms, including nuclear weaponry and their criticism of Iran
for developing its nuclear capabilities is hypocritical.

The unfortunate part of all of this is that the defenders of Israel's aggression and
oppression are being sold a bill of goods to make more money for the military industrial
complex. They believe the propaganda that is fed to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:43 PM

Stringy, there are loony lefties in Ireland as everywhere else, but there is no consensus against Israel among normal, intelligent informed people and their elected governments.

Jim, I have never made a racist post or statement as you well know.
It is just a smokescreen you throw out when you are losing an argument.

On that thread three years ago, I just pointed out the obvious fact of the now universally accepted over-representation.
That is not racist.

I did not offer an explanation for it but pushed to express an opinion, I just said I believed the one put forward, mostly by members of the culture, in the absence of any other explanation.
That is not racist either.
Many other Mudcatters have tried to tell you that you are wrong about this.
Give it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:43 PM

"...but some questionable statement about what actually constitutes 'racism' and whether other sorts of hostility were the same thing or a discrete phenomenon, lured me back a few posts ago"
This gets more and more bizarre as it proceeds.
Stephen Lawrence was a Londoner - his parents were, I think, West Indian.
His case was dealt with and is still referred to as a racist attack - did the five thugs that killed him do so because they hated Londoners - or what?
He was stabbed to death because of his colour, maybe his attackers should have been accused of being 'colourists' - waddya think?
The police were investigated following the case and were found to be "institutionally racist", not because of their attitude to specific races but because of how they dealt with cases involving non-whites, non Brits... foreigners in general.
The law of "incitement to race hatred" covers Pakistanis, West Indians, Travellers.... whether they are true races or not - would anybody care to contradict this?
I will totally agree that the over-use and unfair application of the term 'racist' does devalue the coin, but I don't think that even Keith's best friend could accuse anybody of that here.
I am of the opinion that this is argument has been engineered to create a smoke-screen and present Keith with a 'get out of jail free' card, an opportunity he is more than ready to grasp with both hands, as displayed here.
Despite his nonsensical '"many Mudcatters" claim, as far as I am concerned anybody who states openly that "I firmly believe that all male Pakistanis are culturally implanted" to tend them towards having sex with underage girls, is guilty of one of the worst examples of incitement to race hatred that I have personally encountered in my lifetime - an entire gender of an entire ethnic community in one fell swoop.
To attempt to defend this by whatever means is to align yourself with it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 05:47 PM

Keith, there are comparatively few well-informed people on this issue. Normalcy in these times might be construed as being sociopathic or psychotic. Elected leaders are politicians and have to pay the piper. They are lobbied by special interests such as AIPAC who spread their propaganda about Israel with impunity. The "loonies" as you put it are the ones who have decided that aggression and warfare are a solution to the Mid-East conflict. It's interesting that you bring up the Left-Wing as an epithet as if this was some legitimate argument in favor of supporting Israeli brutality by smearing those of a different political persuasion. This doesn't seem logical or convincing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 04:17 AM

"I have never made a racist post or statement as you well know.
It is just a smokescreen you throw out when you are losing an argument."
Thanks for that - headache and cold almost gone but I appreciate a giggle at any time and a double one is doubly welcome.
"but there is no consensus against Israel among normal, intelligent informed people and their elected governments."
Whoops - I meant triple one -
You've seen and accepted as accurate how many vetoes the US have used to prevent normal, intelligent people and governments from expressing their views and taking action on Israel's terrorist behaviour. Why bother if the majority are already behind Israel (or do you only consider "normal and intelligent" to only refer to those (like your good self), who support Israel's human rights abuses and war crimes unquestioningly?
You have still failed to produce one single shred of evidence to back any of your claims, underlined by the fact that you still are not linking the vast majority of those claims and the ones you have linked are proof that you are ignoring or denying the evidence of everybody but Israel's - as you rightly said - there is nothing else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 04:57 AM

Whenever you are losing an argument you sometimes try and change the thread subject, but always make a personal attack on me bringing up this old issue.
You have hounded me with it from thread to thread for years now, making the same ugly accusations against me in front of my friends and other Mudcatters.

Many people in a position to know were linking the behaviour to aspects of culture.
They were mostly people from that culture.
No other explanation was forthcoming.
Why would anyone not believe them all, and how can it be construed as racist.

Drop this nasty nonsense and confine yourself to the subject under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 05:04 AM

Al Whittle suggested I post this whenever you start.

'Jim, I fully accept that you think I am a racist, and as such worthy of abuse. This is something I dispute and is vehemently denied by several Mudcatters including some who have met me personally; my family; the members of my church, and my community.

That aside, these are some opinions I wish to express and some facts I wish to highlight and discuss on this forum.

Therefore can we take your opinion of me personally as a given, and have a debate as to what I have to say, nonetheless.'

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 06:51 AM

""Ireland for instance.
Did you even read the quote from their embassy web site?
Did you know they buy arms from Israel?
Jim should have a word with the government.""

One western nation which ""buys arms from Israel"" constitutes a good relationship and approval of all Israel's actions?

I DON'T THINK SO!!

All it shows is that one of the world's small number of neutral countries trades with Israel, which in no way is an endorsement of Israel's dealings with its neighbours.

Ireland doesn't take sides in any dispute! WHY?......Because it is a NEUTRAL country.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 07:02 AM

""There was, after all, no compulsion on Jim to have contributed to that thread at all, was there? Yet he did so, in terms of at least qualified assent. I do not think either of you can deny that assertion.""

Absolutely not Mike.

You know that I have defended your right to answer questions just once, if you so choose, or not at all.

I can also sympathise with Jim, whose florid style tends to get peoples' backs up, which absolutely does not justify the way in which certain posters continually cast him in the mould of a bigot.

Simply put, he is passionate in his hatred of oppression in any form, and yes, his emotions colour much of what he says.

That doesn't mean that he isn't quite often corect in his opinions.

Nor does it make him (or me, for that matter) a bigot, racist, antisemite, or any other of the stock misnomers applied by the real bigots and racists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 07:25 AM

""Many people in a position to know were linking the behaviour to aspects of culture.
They were mostly people from that culture.
No other explanation was forthcoming.
Why would anyone not believe them all, and how can it be construed as racist.""

Just one small point Keith, then this particular story is done and dusted as far as I'm concerned.

You say that ""They were mostly people from that culture. No other explanation was forthcoming."", and for that reason you believed them. You were convinced of their veracity, yet when they said that no generalised conclusions about that culture should be drawn from their comments, you chose not to believe them.

What happened to change your mind about their veracity?

Was it perchance that the latter comment didn't fit in with what you wanted to believe?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 07:29 AM

Not only 'florid', Don. It is not Jim's style, but his content that puts backs up. It is not mere 'floridity' constantly to fling accusations of racism, prejudice, bigotry &c, at those who have manifested no signs of any of these erroneous attitudes. It is a simply counterproductive form of abuse on his own part -- an admission that rational argument has failed so that he must fall back on the animadvertive shibboleths of the left to cover his inability to make an actual argumentative point of his own. I am sorry to say that frequently appears to me to be his technique; and if one points that out, one is abused in one's turn for 'defending' those whose views Jim, in his absolute conviction of his own unassailable rightness and morality, has, in his own eyes, so successfully demolished.

I am, as I have said before, constantly reminded of John Gross {I think it was} on the literary critical method of F R Leavis: "that faintly ridiculous air of having triumphantly demonstrated what has merely been vigorously asserted"; together with the apparent [might one almost say 'paranoid'?] conviction that any who do not share his doctrinaire views must be part of some totalitarian conspiracy against what is, to all right-thinking people, the undisputed "good".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM

Can I point out that it was not me that made this an issue - my oppinion of Keith is what it is and I believe it colours everything he says on the question of race.
This is why it became the issue that it did - from the horses mouth:
"Well, to tell the truth, Jim, as I have hinted before, I am not really following the thread that closely; but some questionable statement about what actually constitutes 'racism' and whether other sorts of hostility were the same thing or a discrete phenomenon, lured me back a few posts ago."
Keith's past record of racism will remain available as long as Mudcat archives these discussions.
His added hatred of Arabs is clear on this forum, as is his contempt for the fate of unarmed massacre and human rights abuse victims, whom he has referred to as "the enemy" and described their plight as "Another hyped up non-issue."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM

You say that ""They were mostly people from that culture. No other explanation was forthcoming."", and for that reason you believed them. You were convinced of their veracity, yet when they said that no generalised conclusions about that culture should be drawn from their comments, you chose not to believe them.

They did not say such a thing Don.
They all attributed the behaviour to aspects of the culture, specifically the absence of mixed relationships outside marriage, absence of any courtship relationships, unhappy arranged marriages and a lack of respect for females in general, and non-Muslim girls in particular.

Ireland was only an example which I chose because of Jim.
The quoute from their embassy site indicaed a friendly relationship.
All the countries I mentioned are "neutral" and none would be on friendly termes with a state guilty of the crimes Jim and you ascribe to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 07:38 AM

Apologies - slight mix up there.
It was the 3,500 massacre victims who Keith described as "the enemy" - presumably he considers the Bedouins as expendable
Must get it right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 08:08 AM

It was the 3,500 massacre victims who Keith described as "the enemy"

Another lie Jim.
Here is the post where I simply described the purpose of illumination flares.

"You need light to identify enemy positions.
You do not need light to carry out indiscriminate murder in a crowded camp.
The Israelis stepped in and stopped the massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 09:02 AM

"You need light to identify enemy positions."
That is exactly what you wrote Keith - can't fault you there.
However, the only people in the camps apart from the Phalangists were the refugees, a few medical volunteers and some Israeli soldiers who witnessed (and refused to get involved with or stop) the massacres.
The PLO had withdrawn two weeks earlier and the Israeli regime were well aware of this.
Despite this fact, the Israelis provided a massive and prolonged light display - everybody who was in the vicinity has commented on its intensity and the fact that it was constant.
You have been provided with this information over and over again and, as you claim to have read the evidence, you must know this.
So who was the "enemy" that you claimed had "positions" there.
Perhaps the Israeli's, out of the kindness of their hearts, had decided to give the kids a firework display before they were slaughtered - you reckon?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 09:03 AM

""that faintly ridiculous air of having triumphantly demonstrated what has merely been vigorously asserted"; together with the apparent [might one almost say 'paranoid'?] conviction that any who do not share his doctrinaire views must be part of some totalitarian conspiracy against what is, to all right-thinking people, the undisputed "good".""

Perhaps then Mike you would like to supply a rational, reasoned and logical response to the following question.

Why, in your opinion, does the above quote not apply equally to Keith, with his continual insistence that Israel is innocent because Israel said so?

Any and all evidence to the contrary is dismissed as the lies of antisemites, racists and bigots. He has in fact called me a racist, a bigot and an antisemite on many posts in this and other threads.

What makes his input different/more credible/less obnoxious than Jim's.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 09:09 AM

""All the countries I mentioned are "neutral" and none would be on friendly termes with a state guilty of the crimes Jim and you ascribe to Israel.""

Do you understand what neutral means Keith?

Ireland traded with both the UK and Germany in the early part of WW2. Do you think that they approved of Belsen because of that?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 09:12 AM

""They did not say such a thing Don.""

The comment was definitely made and you know damn well it was, but as I said, it didn't suit your agenda, so you blanked it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 10:16 AM

The newest news is that both Senators Boxer and Wyden support an attack on Iran by Israel if it is preemptive. This shows how much the U.S. is an influence in their support of Israel's hegemony.


"animadvertive shibboleths of the left"
Naturally, an attack on liberals and left-thinking people is used as a device to support the Israeli argument for war. What about the animadverted shibboleths of the Israeli right?


Here's a logical fallacy. Israel, who has the ability to sell arms to other countries claims they don't have the ability to secure their own borders militarily so they rely
on the U.S. as Big Brother to help them out.

This is typical of the bully that says to the victim, "I had to protect myself".
It's an old story.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 10:21 AM

One is a Senate resolution sponsored by Robert Menendez, the Democratic chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and Lindsey Graham, a Republican. It says that if Israel "is compelled to take military action in self-defense, the United States government should stand with Israel and provide diplomatic, military and economic support to the government of Israel in its defense of its territory, people and existence."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 11:00 AM

The comment was definitely made and you know damn well it was, but as I said, it didn't suit your agenda, so you blanked it>So who was the "enemy" that you claimed had "positions" there.

New York Times.
" At some locations (in Beirut after the "withdrawal", fierce gun battles erupted between Israeli soldiers and Moslem militiamen."

Israel was right to assume that fighters would be left after the promise to withdraw.

Don, if any of those states believed that Israel was guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity and mass murder of civilians, they would break off relations and impose sanctions.

Don.
The comment was definitely made and you know damn well it was, but as I said, it didn't suit your agenda, so you blanked it.

Many people said we should avoid pointing the figure at any community and or culture.
The six people I quoted as stating that aspects of that culture led to a disproportionate representation of members of that culture most definitely did not.

Jack Straw, Ann Cryer, Lord Ahmed, Mohamed Shafiq, Albhai-Brown +1(?)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 11:15 AM

Sorry, Don's quote was inadvertently stuck on the front of Jim's in the first line.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM

Stringsinger ~~ I was commenting on Jim's style & content, which Don had described as florid tho generally correct.

My words on this occasion had no application to any attitude concerning Israel one way or the other, so I can't at all see the point of that 'worrabout' question you addressed to me.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 11:29 AM

+1 Baroness Warsi.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 12:30 PM

There were no ground whatever to assume that there were any PLO fighters there - the 'light show' lasted the full length of the massacre and not one shot was fired in opposition.
Perhaps you would like the rest of your article from the totally irellevant New York Times article quote (there are 11 pages for you to have chosen from and you chose - what??) - I've added the link which you continue to omit in order to discourage people from searching the article out.
Please, please tell me that the NYT is an anti-Semite liar and cannot be trusted.
"Jack Straw, Ann Cryer, Lord Ahmed, Mohamed Shafiq, Albhai-Brown'
Not one of them made any comment about "all male Pakistanis", and nobody would have dared to suggest a "cultural implant" for fear of being hit with a 'incitement to race hatred' charge - that is entirely your invention and it is that which makes you the racist you are.
You cold of course, prove me wrong, but so far you have resisted all attempts to provide one single example of any of your 'sources' saying anything resembling your inflammatory statement.
You have had ample time to back your claim and you have consitently , by your non compliance, refused to do so, don't suppose for one minute you will do so now.
Mike
"I was commenting on Jim's style & content,"
A typically evasive reply
I have always tried to back up my claims with relaible documented proof - perhaps you might claim that Keith has done the same here and when I have been proved wrong I have withdrawn my statement and apologised - No? I thought not.
Jim Carroll

First, the Christian militiamen entered the camp with the full knowledge of the Israeli Army, which provided them with at least some of their arms and provisions and assisted them with flares during nighttime operations.
Second, the Israelis had to have known that there was deep and pervasive fear of the Christian militiamen among the Palestinian residents of the camps, because of past atrocities committed by the Christians and Palestinians on each other during the Lebanese civil war.
Third, the Israeli Army began to learn on the evening of Thursday, Sept. 16, that civilians were being killed in Shatila, SINCE FROM THE MOMENT THESE ARMED MEN ENTERED THE CAMPS THEY BEGAN MURDERING PEOPLE AT RANDOM AND THOSE WHO FLED FLEE TOLD THE ISRAELIS WHAT WAS HAPPENING.
The Extent of the Evidence
By Friday morning, there was enough evidence of untoward acts by the militiamen that the senior Israeli commander in Lebanon ordered their operations halted, according to the Israeli Government. Yet, according to Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, the militiamen doing the killing were told by the Israelis they could stay inside the camps until Saturday morning, and the murders continued until they left.
FOURTH, THERE IS EVERY INDICATION THAT WHEN THE ISRAELI ARMY ENTERED WEST BEIRUT EARLIER THAT WEEK THAT IT ENCOUNTERED NO SERIOUS RESISTANCE, IF ANY, FROM THE SABRA AND SHATILA REFUGEE CAMPS. THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THE CAMPS APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN RESIGNED TO THE ISRAELIS COMING INTO THEIR AREA AND DISARMING THEM.
Evidence of Haddad's Role
Finally, there is still no solid information on the precise makeup and command structure of the Christian militia force, which also apparently included some Shiite Moslems. But there is ample circumstantial evidence that members of the Israeli-armed and trained militia of Maj. Saad Haddad and members of the Christian Phalangist militia - also known as the Lebanese Forces -were in the camps. Whether or not they were there under orders from Major Haddad or the Phalangist militiary and political leadership is not clear. The possibility of breakaway elements being involved cannot be ruled out at this point.
Once Yasir Arafat, the P.L.O. chairman, decided in early July that he would be leaving Lebanon, his major concern was to make certain that the Lebanese Government and the special United States envoy, Philip C. Habib, provided proper security guarantees for the thousands of Palestinian civilians who would be left behind without P.L.O. protection.
During the talks on ending the Israeli siege of Beirut, P.L.O. officials and the Sunni Moslem leaders of West Beirut - notably Prime Minister Shafik al-Wazzan and former Prime Minister Saeb Salam - repeatedly expressed the view that Israeli tanks could not be permitted to enter West Beirut with Phalangist militiamen in their train.
The reason was fear.
This fear, which the negotiators repeatedly expressed in public and which was surely known to the Israelis, was rooted in a series of mass killings and attacks - perpetrated by Lebanese Christian militiamen against Palestinians and Moslems, and by Moslems and Palestinians against Christians - that dated from the Lebanese civil war of 1975-1976. A Preventative Measure
It was to prevent such bloody incidents, according to Mr. Salam, a key figure in the talks, that the Moslem and Palestinian representatives insisted that United States, Italian and French troops be deployed in West Beirut until the Lebanese Army was prepared to take over the enforcement of law and order.
Mr. Salam said that this was ''precisely why we asked, and received, assurances from the United States that the Israelis would not enter West Beirut.''

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 01:26 PM

More of the same
Jim Carroll

"What Mr. Sharon described to Parliament as a process of ''checking and clearing out'' the refugee camps was, he said, a job that was to be performed by the Phalangists or the Lebanese Army.
By Wednesday afternoon, sniper fire and Israeli shelling had begun around the Sabra and Shatila camps, and it was intensifying. Dr. Per Maehlumshagen, a Norwegian orthopedic surgeon at Gaza Hospital, not far from the Shatila camp, recalled that ''there was a lot of sniping and some shelling'' around the hospital.
''Around noon on Wednesday,'' Dr. Maehlumshagen recalled, ''the first wounded started to be brought in. That was the first time we began to hear - I don't remember how - that the Israelis were surrounding the camp and setting up checkpoints.''
Zaki F., a Palestinian whose concrete-block home is only a few hundred yards from the hospital, said that by Wednesday afternoon, ''no one was moving in or out of the camps.''
The Israelis Make a Request
At roughly the same time - the precise hour is uncertain - Mr. Sharon said that the Israeli command in West Beirut contacted the Lebanese Army operations chief for the sector to ASK WHETHER THE LEBANESE WERE WILLING TO GO INTO THE CAMPS ON WHAT WERE TERMED SEARCH-AND-DESTROY MISSIONS.
A Lebanese colonel, Michel On, rejected the Israeli proposal. This was corroborated in Mr. Sharon's subsequent statement. Colonel On explained in an interview that his refusal was based on the fact that the Lebanese Army was just then reconstituting itself as an organization. He said it was also then beginning to win the confidence of the Moslem militiamen, Moslem residents and Palestinians of West Beirut."

"The artillery fire, many of these patients later said, appeared to be coming from Israeli positions overlooking the camp to the west. Armed elements inside Sabra may also have been firing at targets outside the camp."

"Mr. Gerti wrote in Haaretz that at one point he had been approached by Israeli soldiers stationed outside Shatila. They told him that on Thursday evening, several Palestinian women ran out of Shatila crying hysterically that their children were being butchered."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 01:29 PM

New York Times article quote (there are 11 pages for you to have chosen from and you chose - what??)

I chose a quote that showed that Israel was right to doubt that all the fighters would keep to the agreement and withdraw.

Not one of them made any comment about "all male Pakistanis"

They said that the behaviour was due to the culture.
My assumption is that ALL are influenced to some extent, however small, by the culture they grew up in.
That is NOT a racist assumption.
If you challenge that assumption, please state the proportion that you will accept.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 01:33 PM

Don't be so touchy, Jim. Don had defended your 'florid' style as being nevertheless trustworthy in content. I was differing from this assessment. I can't see anything 'evasive' in pointing this out when Stringy tried to equate this with a specific attitude to Israeli aggression, which was in no way the point at issue in that particular exchange. One can't deal with every aspect of this broad topic in every post, and I can't see why you should denounce me as 'evasive' in pointing out that I had not attempted to do so. That's the very sort of abuse that you will habitually indulge in, which had provoked the post under consideration in the first place.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 01:39 PM

""Don, if any of those states believed that Israel was guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity and mass murder of civilians, they would break off relations and impose sanctions.""

Don't be ridiculous!
They all trade with Uncle Sam as well, and since Uncle Sam has a power of veto at the UN, which would have to approve any such sanctions, they would jeopardise that trade for nothing.

Why do you suppose that the UN, which you claim is anti Israel, hasn't done anything of the sort over the West Bank encroachment, which it has classified as illegal?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 01:40 PM

Jim, I keep wading through the ridiculous, long transpositions from your book.
They do not contradict the Israeli version of events.
I have already shown how an original source was embellished in your book.
Your very long extract posted yesterday at 12.46 pm relied heavily on an un-named person. "Furthermore, a high-ranking American official confirmed that the United States "would be extremely surprised if Israel...."
Who was he/her?
Who reported his/her words?
It is just an apocryphal story and probably made up.

Your very long book is not reliable evidence.
You can keep posting it but I am not going to waste any more time on it.
You can be certain that no-one else has read it all this far.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 02:47 PM

"They do not contradict the Israeli version of events."
'Fraid they do – they put the Israelis there and responsible
"It is just an apocryphal story and probably made up."
If you'd bother to read your links you will find the same story repeated from several sources.
"Your very long book is not reliable evidence."
All accredited and well known sources – particularly the Israeli ones.
Short book – bit longer than Peter Rabbit, but there you go!
"You can be certain that no-one else has read it all this far."
You hope!!
Thanks for the NYP link – confirms the book to perfection - more below
They said that the behaviour was due to the culture.
I'll take that as an admission that nobody mentioned a "cultural implant" or "all male Pakistanis" which leaves it as your invention – and absolutely racist.
every single oneof them warned that in no way should any racial/cultural conclusions be drawn from their statements – as did Judges, police officials, researchers...............
"If you challenge that assumption, please state the proportion that you will accept"
Culturally implanted – not a ******* word.
"Don't be so touchy, "
I'll take that as a "no" then Mike.
Jim Carroll

"They do not contradict the Israeli version of events."
'Fraid they do – they put the Israelis there and responsible
"It is just an apocryphal story and probably made up."
If you'd bother to read your links you will find the same story repeated from several sources.
"Your very long book is not reliable evidence."
All accredited and well known sources – particularly the Israeli ones.
Short book – bit longer than Peter Rabbit, but there you go!
"You can be certain that no-one else has read it all this far."
You hope!!
Thanks for the NYP link – confirms the book perfection
They said that the behaviour was due to the culture.
I'll take that as an admission that nobody mentioned a "cultural implant" or "all male Pakistanis" which leaves it as your invention – and absolutely racist.
every single oneof them warned that in no way should any racial/cultural conclusions be drawn from their statements – as did Judges, police officials, researchers...............
"If you challenge that assumption, please state the proportion that you will accept"
Culturally implanted – not a ******* word.
"Don't be so touchy, "
I'll take that as a "no" then Mike.

''Shortly after that we went down to the shelter,'' the doctor said, ''and found that one of the Palestinian nurses down there had been raped repeatedly and then shot.'' He identified her as Intisar Ismail, 19 years old. Two Physicians Are Abducted
Around the same time Friday, two Palestinian doctors at the hospital, one named Sami Katib, were abducted by the militiamen who entered the hospital. A Palestinian patient was kidnapped with them.
At approximately 3:45 P.M., witnesses say, yet another group of militiamen arrived at the Akka Hospital. Their arrival suggested to the Asian doctor that there was very little coordination between these men, especially since they all tended to ask the same question. The militiamen said they wanted to see the nurses. He told the men that the nurses had all fled.
At this point, according to the doctor, the militiamen asked to search the hospital. During the course of their work, they found a photograph of Yasir Arafat in the Asian doctor's room.
''You are a terrorist,'' one of the militiamen said to him. Doctor Pleads for His Life
At that point, the doctor said, he began to beg for his life. He was told to bring the nurses back to the hospital by 7 P.M., or else, the militiamen said, they would blow his head off.
Fortunately for the physician, by about 5 P.M. Friday, an International Red Cross convoy made it to the hospital and evacuated everyone left there. The doctor said that at about 5:30 P.M., as he was leaving the facility for safety, he saw at the southern end of Shatila what he estimated to be 80 to 90 bodies. They had been mixed together with sand and were being pushed by bulldozers.
This area can be seen very clearly with the naked eye from the Kuwaiti Embassy traffic circle - the site of the telescope and binocular-equipped Israeli observation post. Whether the Israelis actually looked down and saw what was happening is unknown. Crisis at Gaza Hospital
At Gaza Hospital, on the other end of the camp, matters were also beginning to unravel Friday morning. Just after dawn a nurse on the eighth floor was shot and killed by a sniper, according to witnesses. At about noon, a woman who was director of the hospital called a meeting of the staff in light of the stories being told by the hundreds of people who were gathered around the facility, and by the wounded who had been brought inside.
Her message was simple: If you are a Palestinian, you would be well advised to run for your life, toward Israeli lines and Hamra Street.
About 20 foreign doctors and nurses and two Palestinian male nurses stayed behind to tend to the 37 patients who could not be moved. Everyone else fled.
Among those who ran were Taleb Alouki, the carpenter from Shatila, and his brother Fawzi. Earlier in the day, they managed to get back into the camp, to the shelter where they had left their neighbors the night before. Outside the shelter they found the bodies of 15 men who had been tied together with a rope, shot and scalped. 500 People Flee the Area
The two brothers ran back to the Gaza Hospital, through the maze of buildings and alleyways that make up the refugee camps. When everyone fled at around noon, they recalled, they and about 400 to 500 other people dashed north, toward Corniche Mazraa, the main boulevard separating West Beirut proper from the Palestinian-controlled southern suburbs.
This was also where the northern Israeli perimeter around the camps was situated. They sought refuge in the Warda al-Yazigi School, just south of Corniche Mazraa. It was by now early Friday afternoon.
Sometime, either in the morning or early afternoon, the precise time cannot be established, a CBS News cameraman was on the perimeter of the Sabra camp, where he filmed a middle-aged Palestinian woman appealing to two Israeli soldiers to stop the killings going on inside the camps. 'Big Boss' Is Informed
Some of this information had clearly filtered up to the Israeli command by this time. According to Mr. Sharon's statement before the Israeli Parliament, at about 11 A.M. Friday the Israeli division commander, Amos Yaron, met with General Drori and ''raised suspicions concerning the method of operation of the Phalangists.'' An Order to Halt Operation
According to Mr. Sharon, General Drori then ordered the Phalangist liaison officer to halt the operation. It is clear from all accounts that by Friday afternoon things did quiet down somewhat in the camps but there were still fires raging and shooting going on, according to people who were on the scene.
What happened next was probably the most controversial decision taken by the Israeli high command, save for sending the Phalangists into the camps in the first place.
At 4:30 P.M. Friday afternoon, after General Drori was said by Mr. Sharon to have ordered an end to the operation, he and General Eytan met again with the Phalangists. At that time, Mr. Sharon said, it was ''agreed that all of the Phalangists would leave the refugee camps on Saturday morning.''

An Apparent Contradiction
"I was here throughout the siege" of Beirut, said Tineke Uluf, a 30-year-old Dutch nurse who was working in the Gaza Hospital, "and I never remember the sky being lit up that brightly over the camps.
"It was like a sports stadium lit up for a football game," she recalled. "It started about 7 P.M. and continued late into the night."

"Hirsch Goodman, the military correspondent of The Jersalem Post, reported that he had been shown a cable sent at 11 P.M. Thursday from the head of the Phalangist units in Shatila to the Israeli command in East Beirut.
It said, Mr. Goodman wrote, "To this time we have killed 300 civilians and terrorists."
The cable was immediately distributed in the command and sent to Tel Aviv, he reported."

What happened next was probably the most controversial decision taken by the Israeli high command, save for sending the Phalangists into the camps in the first place.
At 4:30 P.M. Friday afternoon, after General Drori was said by Mr. Sharon to have ordered an end to the operation, he and General Eytan met again with the Phalangists. At that time, Mr. Sharon said, it was ''agreed that all of the Phalangists would leave the refugee camps on Saturday morning.''
An Apparent Contradiction
At this point, officials in Lebanon note, there appears to be a serious contradiction in Mr. Sharon's account of what happened. He said the Phalangists were ordered to stop their operations in the camps at 11 A.M. Friday. Yet at 4:30 P.M. they were told that they could stay in the camps until Saturday morning. Repeated efforts to interview General Drori to clarify this point were unsuccessful.
The available evidence suggests that the operation was not halted on Friday, but that it may have been slowed down somewhat. Israeli officers in East Beirut said what happened at the 4:30 Friday meeting was that the Phalangists told the Israelis that they needed more time to ''clean up'' the area.
The Israelis said that instead of moving troops in to stop the militia operation, the Israeli command decided to give those militiamen already in the camp time to finish what they were doing.But at the same time, the Israelis decided to keep additional militiamen from moving into the camp.

SOME PHALANGISTS BEGIN LEAVING
The Israelis said that instead of moving troops in to stop the militia operation, the Israeli command decided to give those militiamen already in the camp time to finish what they were doing.But at the same time, the Israelis decided to keep additional militiamen from moving into the camp. Some Phalangists Begin Leaving
Lebanese Army sources confirmed that by Friday afternoon Phalangist units with trucks and halftracks began moving out of the airport back to their home bases, just as Mr. Sharon said.
Inside the camps, the militiamen already on the scene continued with their work. At some time between 4 P.M. and 5 P.M. Friday a Reuters correspondent, Paul Eedle, spoke to an Israeli colonel at the Kuwaiti intersection and asked him about the operations taking place in the camp.
The colonel, who declined to be identified, told Mr. Eedle that his men were working on the basis of two principles: that the Israeli Army should not get involved, but that the area should be ''purified.'

Sounds of gunfire and explosions could be heard emanating from the northern end of Shatila, witnesses recalled, and they could also be heard by Taleb Alouki and his brother Fawzi. They, along with 400 to 500 other people, had fled from Gaza Hospital in the afternoon when word came that the militiamen were advancing in their direction. They took shelter at the Al-Yazigi school, cowering in courtyards and classrooms.
Some of the Palestinian civilians who tried to flee the camps for the safety of downtown say they were prevented from leaving by the Israelis outside the camps. The following account by the two brothers, was corroborated by the testimony of five other people who were later interviewed separately and independently of each other. Palestinians Decide to Run
On Friday afternoon, with the sound of gunfire seeming to get closer to the school where they were hiding. the Alouki brothers and the others decided to make a run for Corniche Mazraa and the Israeli lines.
The throng, showing a white flag, moved from the school up Rue Mohammed Ali Beyhum to Corniche Mazraa. As they approached the Israeli checkpoint on the main boulevard, kitty-corner to the Barbir Hospital, they were stopped by an Israeli soldier. The soldier, by all accounts, was clearly surprised and probably frightened to see all of these people coming at him.
The soldier shouted in Arabic to the crowd to stay back, then went into crouch position at the corner of a building and aimed his gun at the people, who immediately started shrieking and turned around.

CROWD CHOOSES A SPOKESMAN
The soldier, members of the crowd recalled, then told them to send one person forward to explain what they wanted. A man was chosen and sent to speak to the Israeli.
According to the people, the spokesman told the soldier that Haddad militiamen were slaughtering civilians in the camps and that they were trying to escape.
The Israeli soldier told the spokesman that there was nothing he could do, and added that if they remained in the area, he would open fire.
People began protesting; women started weeping. The Israeli soldier then reportedly fired two volleys into the air to scatter the crowd. At that point, witnesses say, an Israeli tank rolled from Corniche Mazraa onto Rue Mohammed Ali Beyhum and chased the people a few hundred feet back toward the camps. A Witness Corroborates Account
Reporters who went to the intersection last Thursday afternoon found a Lebanese man who lived in a first-floor apartment who said he had seen the entire episode from his balcony. He confirmed the refugees' story without any prompting.
If the refugees' account is true, it would appear that by Friday afternoon the Israeli commanders had given no order to allow civilians fleeing the scene to pass through the perimeter set up around the camps by the Israeli Army.
''If we went one way we ran into the Israelis; if we went the other way we ran into the Haddad men,'' Taleb Alouki said, ''so we all just decided to turn around and hide in the school.''
Almost a week later, they were still there



"Shortly after that we went down to the shelter,'' the doctor said, ''and found that one of the Palestinian nurses down there had been raped repeatedly and then shot." He identified her as Intisar Ismail, 19 years old. Two Physicians Are Abducted
Around the same time Friday, two Palestinian doctors at the hospital, one named Sami Katib, were abducted by the militiamen who entered the hospital. A Palestinian patient was kidnapped with them.
At approximately 3:45 P.M., witnesses say, yet another group of militiamen arrived at the Akka Hospital. Their arrival suggested to the Asian doctor that there was very little coordination between these men, especially since they all tended to ask the same question. The militiamen said they wanted to see the nurses. He told the men that the nurses had all fled.
At this point, according to the doctor, the militiamen asked to search the hospital. During the course of their work, they found a photograph of Yasir Arafat in the Asian doctor's room.
''You are a terrorist,'' one of the militiamen said to him. Doctor Pleads for His Life
At that point, the doctor said, he began to beg for his life. He was told to bring the nurses back to the hospital by 7 P.M., or else, the militiamen said, they would blow his head off.
Fortunately for the physician, by about 5 P.M. Friday, an International Red Cross convoy made it to the hospital and evacuated everyone left there. The doctor said that at about 5:30 P.M., as he was leaving the facility for safety, he saw at the southern end of Shatila what he estimated to be 80 to 90 bodies. They had been mixed together with sand and were being pushed by bulldozers.
This area can be seen very clearly with the naked eye from the Kuwaiti Embassy traffic circle - the site of the telescope and binocular-equipped Israeli observation post. Whether the Israelis actually looked down and saw what was happening is unknown. Crisis at Gaza Hospital
At Gaza Hospital, on the other end of the camp, matters were also beginning to unravel Friday morning. Just after dawn a nurse on the eighth floor was shot and killed by a sniper, according to witnesses. At about noon, a woman who was director of the hospital called a meeting of the staff in light of the stories being told by the hundreds of people who were gathered around the facility, and by the wounded who had been brought inside.
Her message was simple: If you are a Palestinian, you would be well advised to run for your life, toward Israeli lines and Hamra Street.
About 20 foreign doctors and nurses and two Palestinian male nurses stayed behind to tend to the 37 patients who could not be moved. Everyone else fled.
Among those who ran were Taleb Alouki, the carpenter from Shatila, and his brother Fawzi. Earlier in the day, they managed to get back into the camp, to the shelter where they had left their neighbors the night before. Outside the shelter they found the bodies of 15 men who had been tied together with a rope, shot and scalped. 500 People Flee the Area
The two brothers ran back to the Gaza Hospital, through the maze of buildings and alleyways that make up the refugee camps. When everyone fled at around noon, they recalled, they and about 400 to 500 other people dashed north, toward Corniche Mazraa, the main boulevard separating West Beirut proper from the Palestinian-controlled southern suburbs.
This was also where the northern Israeli perimeter around the camps was situated. They sought refuge in the Warda al-Yazigi School, just south of Corniche Mazraa. It was by now early Friday afternoon.
Sometime, either in the morning or early afternoon, the precise time cannot be established, a CBS News cameraman was on the perimeter of the Sabra camp, where he filmed a middle-aged Palestinian woman appealing to two Israeli soldiers to stop the killings going on inside the camps. 'Big Boss' Is Informed
Some of this information had clearly filtered up to the Israeli command by this time. According to Mr. Sharon's statement before the Israeli Parliament, at about 11 A.M. Friday the Israeli division commander, Amos Yaron, met with General Drori and ''raised suspicions concerning the method of operation of the Phalangists.'' An Order to Halt Operation
According to Mr. Sharon, General Drori then ordered the Phalangist liaison officer to halt the operation. It is clear from all accounts that by Friday afternoon things did quiet down somewhat in the camps but there were still fires raging and shooting going on, according to people who were on the scene.
What happened next was probably the most controversial decision taken by the Israeli high command, save for sending the Phalangists into the camps in the first place.
At 4:30 P.M. Friday afternoon, after General Drori was said by Mr. Sharon to have ordered an end to the operation, he and General Eytan met again with the Phalangists. At that time, Mr. Sharon said, it was ''agreed that all of the Phalangists would leave the refugee camps on Saturday morning.''

An Apparent Contradiction
"I was here throughout the siege" of Beirut, said Tineke Uluf, a 30-year-old Dutch nurse who was working in the Gaza Hospital, "and I never remember the sky being lit up that brightly over the camps.
"It was like a sports stadium lit up for a football game," she recalled. "It started about 7 P.M. and continued late into the night."

"Hirsch Goodman, the military correspondent of The Jersalem Post, reported that he had been shown a cable sent at 11 P.M. Thursday from the head of the Phalangist units in Shatila to the Israeli command in East Beirut.
It said, Mr. Goodman wrote, "To this time we have killed 300 civilians and terrorists."
The cable was immediately distributed in the command and sent to Tel Aviv, he reported."

What happened next was probably the most controversial decision taken by the Israeli high command, save for sending the Phalangists into the camps in the first place.
At 4:30 P.M. Friday afternoon, after General Drori was said by Mr. Sharon to have ordered an end to the operation, he and General Eytan met again with the Phalangists. At that time, Mr. Sharon said, it was ''agreed that all of the Phalangists would leave the refugee camps on Saturday morning.''
An Apparent Contradiction
At this point, officials in Lebanon note, there appears to be a serious contradiction in Mr. Sharon's account of what happened. He said the Phalangists were ordered to stop their operations in the camps at 11 A.M. Friday. Yet at 4:30 P.M. they were told that they could stay in the camps until Saturday morning. Repeated efforts to interview General Drori to clarify this point were unsuccessful.
The available evidence suggests that the operation was not halted on Friday, but that it may have been slowed down somewhat. Israeli officers in East Beirut said what happened at the 4:30 Friday meeting was that the Phalangists told the Israelis that they needed more time to ''clean up'' the area.
The Israelis said that instead of moving troops in to stop the militia operation, the Israeli command decided to give those militiamen already in the camp time to finish what they were doing.But at the same time, the Israelis decided to keep additional militiamen from moving into the camp.

SOME PHALANGISTS BEGIN LEAVING
The Israelis said that instead of moving troops in to stop the militia operation, the Israeli command decided to give those militiamen already in the camp time to finish what they were doing.But at the same time, the Israelis decided to keep additional militiamen from moving into the camp. Some Phalangists Begin Leaving
Lebanese Army sources confirmed that by Friday afternoon Phalangist units with trucks and halftracks began moving out of the airport back to their home bases, just as Mr. Sharon said.
Inside the camps, the militiamen already on the scene continued with their work. At some time between 4 P.M. and 5 P.M. Friday a Reuters correspondent, Paul Eedle, spoke to an Israeli colonel at the Kuwaiti intersection and asked him about the operations taking place in the camp.
The colonel, who declined to be identified, told Mr. Eedle that his men were working on the basis of two principles: that the Israeli Army should not get involved, but that the area should be ''purified.'

Sounds of gunfire and explosions could be heard emanating from the northern end of Shatila, witnesses recalled, and they could also be heard by Taleb Alouki and his brother Fawzi. They, along with 400 to 500 other people, had fled from Gaza Hospital in the afternoon when word came that the militiamen were advancing in their direction. They took shelter at the Al-Yazigi school, cowering in courtyards and classrooms.
Some of the Palestinian civilians who tried to flee the camps for the safety of downtown say they were prevented from leaving by the Israelis outside the camps. The following account by the two brothers, was corroborated by the testimony of five other people who were later interviewed separately and independently of each other. Palestinians Decide to Run
On Friday afternoon, with the sound of gunfire seeming to get closer to the school where they were hiding. the Alouki brothers and the others decided to make a run for Corniche Mazraa and the Israeli lines.
The throng, showing a white flag, moved from the school up Rue Mohammed Ali Beyhum to Corniche Mazraa. As they approached the Israeli checkpoint on the main boulevard, kitty-corner to the Barbir Hospital, they were stopped by an Israeli soldier. The soldier, by all accounts, was clearly surprised and probably frightened to see all of these people coming at him.
The soldier shouted in Arabic to the crowd to stay back, then went into crouch position at the corner of a building and aimed his gun at the people, who immediately started shrieking and turned around.

CROWD CHOOSES A SPOKESMAN
The soldier, members of the crowd recalled, then told them to send one person forward to explain what they wanted. A man was chosen and sent to speak to the Israeli.
According to the people, the spokesman told the soldier that Haddad militiamen were slaughtering civilians in the camps and that they were trying to escape.
The Israeli soldier told the spokesman that there was nothing he could do, and added that if they remained in the area, he would open fire.
People began protesting; women started weeping. The Israeli soldier then reportedly fired two volleys into the air to scatter the crowd. At that point, witnesses say, an Israeli tank rolled from Corniche Mazraa onto Rue Mohammed Ali Beyhum and chased the people a few hundred feet back toward the camps. A Witness Corroborates Account
Reporters who went to the intersection last Thursday afternoon found a Lebanese man who lived in a first-floor apartment who said he had seen the entire episode from his balcony. He confirmed the refugees' story without any prompting.
If the refugees' account is true, it would appear that by Friday afternoon the Israeli commanders had given no order to allow civilians fleeing the scene to pass through the perimeter set up around the camps by the Israeli Army.
''If we went one way we ran into the Israelis; if we went the other way we ran into the Haddad men,'' Taleb Alouki said, ''so we all just decided to turn around and hide in the school.''
Almost a week later, they were still there

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 03:28 PM

"Don't be so touchy, "
I'll take that as a "no" then Mike.
.,,.
"No" to what, Jim? I don't recall any question you have put to me for which a yes/no answer would have been appropriate. You called me 'evasive' for pointing out to Stringy that I was addressing your confusions in posting rather than the main gravamen of the thread's topic ~~ a view which your above apostrophe seems fully to confirm.
   You are in a state of considerable confusion AFAICS, Jim. Would do well to stop digging if you want my opinion ~~ which I fully appreciate you don't so don't trouble to respond. You must be much too busy, anyway, scanning & copying & pasting from this turgid tome you are treating us to such reams'n'reams'n'reams of. I don't know how accurate is Keith's assessment that he doesn't believe anyone reads the monster passages you copy: but sure as hell I don't! Still, carry on with it if you must: proggally keeps you from worse mischief at that, my duckling...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM

Culture is implanted Jim.
That is a perfectly reasonable statement and not in the least racist.
If culture influences all, then it is OK for me to say all, and implanted.


If you challenge that all are influenced by their culture, give us what proportion you will accept.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM

"every single oneof them warned that in no way should any racial/cultural conclusions be drawn from their statements – as did Judges, police officials, researchers..............."

.,,.

Yes - Hmm - Well - in the immortal words of Miss Mandy Rice-Davies...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 06:33 PM

"but sure as hell I don't!"

Nor do I, especially the red stuff, as I always try to avoid the spray of spittle.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 07:53 PM

There are a few countries we should worry about because they have the hydrogen bomb.
North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, The U.S., and Israel.

The U.S. has already used it.

Iran doesn't have it. Still, the Israeli government wants to bomb them.

Jim Carroll is just expressing what people are not willing to look at, being scared shitless that one of these loose cannon countries would use it if they couldn't make do with the lesser weapons. War has a way of escalating.

Don't tell me that the heads of state of these countries are in their right minds when it comes to deploying their militaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 02:44 AM

You compared your book [lengthwise anyhow] with Beatrix Potter's Peter Rabbit, Jim. What an interesting choice!, of all the brief books in the world. You might have gone on to her sequential story of The Flopsy Bunnies, where she tells us

"It is said that the effect of eating too much lettuce is 'soporific'."

The author of your book seems to have been aiming for a similar effect to Mr McGregor's lettuces! Perhaps that was the train of thought which led you to that rather odd analogy?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM

"Culture is implanted Jim."
You have been cynically attempting to manipulate this thread away from the awkward bits by whinging "thread change", now apparently you want to make it "Son of Muslim Prejudice"
One word and no more.
The more you repeat this moronic phrase, the more you underline your own idiocy.
Culture is absorbed; some aspects like religion are actually taught, but others are taken from families, friends, the surrounding communities... if these change, the culture changes, sometimes, slowly, but when the changes are radical, extremely quickly, often too quickly to be dealt with comfortably.
We worked with Irish Travellers in the London area for thirty years; the older people we recorded were brought up in the first half of the 20th century in rural Ireland and only moved out of that environment in the 1950s. Others were born on the road and moved into cities like Dublin, Galway and Cork
Most of the children we knew were born in urban Britain and their culture was shaped by that fact, entirely different from their parents Three different cultures within one community - it's called 'acculturation'.
Whatever the causes of the tiny handful of crimes that you describe as being "culturally implanted", they have nothing to do with being "Pakistani" or "Muslim" or Asian..... or whatever nasty racist label you would attach to them. The few who are carrying them out have kicked over the traces of traditional culture, they drink, they have sex outside of marriage, they don't follow family guidance or religious dictats - they are misfits.
Your crude attempts to pin these crimes on being "Muslim" is little different to the Nazi doctors and psychologists who claimed that Jews were genetically and culturally inferior - rabid, murderous racism that took the lives of six million Jews (not forgetting those that people tend to forget; the quarter of a million Gypsies that suffered the same fate - not an accident that you have had them in your rifle-sights as a target for your racism before now).
I read a remarkable book last year (I enjoyed it so much I'm keeping the follow up for later).
It was called 'The Invisible Wall' and is the memoir of Harry Bernstein, a Jewish man who grew up in a community of impoverished Jews who had fled the pogroms in eastern Europe and had settled in a one-street cotton town outside Manchester just before World War I.   
The 'Invisible Wall' was the divide between the Jewish and the Lancashire natives.
The Jewish families employed gentiles to light their fires on a Saturday because their religion forbade them to work on the Sabbath.
The sister of the author fled the community to marry a local lad; on the night of her departure the family held a wake to mourn her 'death' and from then on she was treated as deceased.
The book ends with the drawing to a close of WWI and the changes it wrought in that traditional community.
The second volume covers the family emigrating to America - more changes, no doubt.
I lived in Manchester in the 1960s and many of my friends were Jewish and from the same area as the memoir was set - no "fire dogs", no invisible walls", no forcing children to marry within their faith.... just a bunch of sociable, welcoming people who shared my love of traditional music, theatre and literature, and my interest in history and politics.
Branding people as you do, as 'cultural criminals' is to ghettoise them and forbid them the right to settle, live their lives peacefully and change - it is to terrorise entire communities, old, young, men, women - it is racist persecution of an extreme kind.
I'm not surprised that you hold the views you do and express them as viciously forcibly as you do - it seems to be what you are (perhaps it is the result of a cultural implant!)
I have no doubt you have a few well thought out reply to all this, like "rubbish", or "lies" or "bigoted" - maybe you can fit in an "Anti-Semitic" somewhere.
On the other hand, maybe it is "too long" - seems to be a problem with you - sorry about that; I don't have your skill of dealing with complex subjects with one-liners!
I am surprised and disappointed that Mike seems to share them, or at least, is ready to defend them on your behalf.
"Well - in the immortal words of Miss Mandy Rice-Davies..."
I always thought you would move away from being 'clever-clever' to maybe being just 'clever' - ah well; perhaps that's some sort of an implant too.
Finished that one - wan't more, reopen Muslim Prejudice, seems to be your natural habitat.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 05:57 AM

You have been cynically attempting to manipulate this thread away from the awkward bits by whinging "thread change", now apparently you want to make it "Son of Muslim Prejudice"

It was YOU who raised this issue yet again, as you have done on scores of other threads.
I stated many times that it was NOT a Muslim issue.
Linking it to culture came not from me but from people close to or of that culture.

Your attacks on me are wholly groundless and just used as a distraction when arguments go against you.

Anything more to say about the airstrike on the arms convoy, and Israel NOT being condemned by UN?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM

"It was YOU who raised this issue yet again, as you have done on scores of other threads."
I raised your racism, not the fansasised cultural implants you invented.
"I stated many times that it was NOT a Muslim issue."
Your attack was aimed at All British Male Pakistanis and you claimed they were "culturally implanted - if it was not the Muslim culture, what culture was it, Inuit maybe?
"Linking it to culture came not from me but from people close to or of that culture."
No it wasn't - you have yet to provide one single reference which claims that these crimes are the direct responsibility of any particular race, religion or culture - that was your suggestion alone and it remains your view.
"Culture is implanted Jim."
Your view, your responsibility, your statement - have the balls either to stand by it or withdraw it instead of blaming somebody else for your racism.
"Anything more to say about the airstrike on the arms convoy, and Israel NOT being condemned by UN?"
Not your "thread drift" rathole again YOU ARE NOT A SITE ADMINISTRATOR AND AFTER YOUR PERFORMANCE HERE, YOU WILL NOT EVEN BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AGAIN - DO NOT PRESUME TO TELL ANYBODY HERE WHAT AND WHAT NOT TO DEBATE
"as a distraction when arguments go against you."
Thanks for yet another giggle - starts the day as I like it to
Anything to say on the New York Times article - you know - the one that illustrated Israel's guilt in the Sabra/Shatila massacre you kindly put up for us.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM

"I am surprised and disappointed that Mike seems to share them, or at least, is ready to defend them on your behalf.
"Well - in the immortal words of Miss Mandy Rice-Davies..."
I always thought you would move away from being 'clever-clever' to maybe being just 'clever' - ah well; perhaps that's some sort of an implant too"..
,,.,.,.,

Once, Jim, long long years ago, when The Times were running a correspondence on animal rights, they published a letter of mine to the effect that some of their campaigners reminded me of Macauley's dictum that the Puritans' objection to bear-baiting was not that it gave pain to the bear, but that it gave pleasure to the spectators. I came home that evening to four hate messages on my ansafone, one of which, from a spokesman for a group called Animal Rights Extreme, was a literal death-threat ~~ "You deserve to be eliminated for writing such things and you will be eliminated!".

I am afraid, Jim, that your remark above rather reminds me of that mindset. If one can't, even on a thread like this, on however earnest a topic, express oneself with a certain amount of irony, or even a degree of levity, without being denounced in tones of the outmost pejorativity, as 'clever-clever' & so on, I call it a poor look-out for the forum ~ and for the world. I know this is a subject dear to your ♥, Jim. But for god's sake do lighten up just a bit before we are all drowned in floods of our own tears!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 07:51 AM

To clarify ~~ I know this is a serious topic: and I was there not failing to take it seriously. I was simply replying to your point that all the authorities cited by Keith had taken trouble to distance themselves from any sort of underlying racial connotations. I could have written,

"It was predicable that they would do so, to obviate any possible accusation of prejudice on their own parts";

but it seemed to me more effective to cite Miss R-D's well-known remark at the Profumo trial [it is even in the Oxford Dict of Quotns!], making my point referential rather than declarative, thus calling on a certain degree of momentary consideration and recognition from the reader. It was over-earnest and unnecessarily hostile on your part, to dismiss that so contemptuously as my merely being 'clever-clever'.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:31 AM

"Miss R-D's well-known remark"
If you are claiming that the police, judiciary, social workers, and all the others who have warned off drawing racial connotations to cover there own arses, then you are saying that Keith is cringing behind people in responsible positions who have taken the cowards way out on a serious subject and who have nodded through an aspect of racial crimes that needs to be faced head on in all its implications.
On the other hand, it may be the case that, as all of them have said, there is nowhere near enough evidence to place the the blame anywhere and on any particular cultural, racial, social, environmental cause. This was the conclusion of the committee that was set up to examine and report on the causes of these crimes at the beginning of last year. The same committee also added a warning of their findings being used as a racist weapon.
If you and Keith know anything different then you should let us (and them) have it rather than quotes from a prostitute who was also reported to have said "kiss me quick, I'm coming".
Vague accusations like yours may be ironic (I appreciate irony too and realise it can be as effective as an iron bar when used selectively), but in the hands of brain-deads like Keith they can be dangerous, even deadly weapons.
Isn't it time we put a stop to this and go back to kicking the clarts out of each other on Israel's war crimes?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:10 AM

DO NOT PRESUME TO TELL ANYBODY HERE WHAT AND WHAT NOT TO DEBATE

Yes.
Sorry Jim. A Mudcat thread is about whatever Jim wants it to be about, irrespective of the title, the OP, or what anyone else wants to discuss.

I did state many times that the child abuse issue is not a Muslim issue.
Not one single member of our large Indian Muslim community has been implicated.

I raised your racism, not the fansasised cultural implants you invented.
Not true Jim, you specifically made that quote.
Linking that crime to culture came, not from me, but from people close to or of that culture.

Your attacks on me are wholly groundless and just used as a distraction when arguments go against you.

Re the airstrike, the whole world except friends of Butcher Assad are grateful to Israel for their prompt action.
In over 6 weeks since the OP you have yet to state your opinion Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 11:08 AM

You have used the word "implant*" 15 times just on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM

"Not true Jim, you specifically made that quote."
Which is a reference to your racism, not an attempt to reopen it.
"You have used the word "implant*" 15 times just on this thread!"
Answer the same as above - not an attempt to reopen it.
Live with it Keith, it's a moon that will rise and rise and rise whenever you debate racial issues.
Worth doing here as you seem to have reiterated your position on it.
"when arguments go against you."
Come oonnnn - a joke ceases to be funny when you repeat it so often
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

Isn't it time we put a stop to this and go back to kicking the clarts out of each other on Israel's war crimes?

.,,.

But we don't disagree about those. They are what distress me above all.

I know you're always going on about how it's only lipservice or ½❤d or something, but I pay no mind to the baseless & assertive sort of argument you always fall back on, as Keith so rightly says, when you haven't got anything else.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 01:03 PM

"when you haven't got anything else""
Oh, for ***** sake - come on Mike, you can do better than that.
Keith has been given dozens of examples to respond to with discussion and proof of his own; he has totally failed or openly refused to do so, responding only with "Israel says they didn't do it". He has even said himself that the only evidence in Israel's favour comes from Israel and its propaganda sites. He has stupidly put up two major pieces of information which condemn Israel's action in the massacre of refugees, thereby undermining his own case.
What we have run out of is patience with somebody who is openly dishonest and stubbornly bigoted enough to reject every single criticism of Israeli behaviour.
He has written off every piece of evidence put before him from all over the world as hateful lies, bigoted, Antisemitic... even evidence from Israelis and their supporters.
What he can't handle he has ignored, then dishonestly claimed to have dealt with it.
He has claimed to have read everything put before him, then proved he hasn't      
He has even claimed that his only accepting Israel's version of events if fair and unbiased, and by us not doing so we are bigots and Israeli haters.
Do you honestly believe that he has conducted himself honestly and with any level of principle or self-respect here - has he produced and worthwhile or in any way convincing evidence - has he actually debated any of these issues at all - or is this just part of your "help a rabid dog over a stile" mission?
In defending his despicable behaviour here you're smearing yourself with it.
If I have said anything here that is untrue, please feel free to correct me - I will happily produce backing for anything I have written.
He keeps talking about "winning" and "losing" as if all this were a game, nobody "wins" in one of Keith's wars of attrition, you should bloody well know that.
Keith is the one single individual here who has openly defended massive human rights abuses and murders by Israel, (even his lone buddy chickened out on backing him on that), and he has put as much effort (sorry - time) into it as he did in trying to prove Pakistanis were perverts.
Shame on you for your stupidity - is this really what you want to put your name to?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 01:14 PM

Jews in America are not totally different from many in Israel. And not all Jews in America fortunately subscribe to AIPAC's propaganda.

There is racism in America and Israel and it is directed at Muslims. Therefore,
the issue is germane to the war crimes of Israel. This is not thread drift.

As to the arguments being solved by Keith, this hasn't happened. Not enough evidence supports his conclusions.

The evidence exists that there is a problem, an ongoing war based on Israel oppression of Palestinian people. This will not be solved by taking a hard line on Israeli nationalism. There is no way that the rest of the world will accept Israeli intransigence, belligerence and a warlike position that threatens the stability to world peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 01:32 PM

Keith is the one single individual here who has openly defended massive human rights abuses and murders by Israel

Again, not true Jim.
Unlike you, I just need to see some evidence of it before I believe it.
I agree that Israel's denial is not evidence, but if they refute an accusation, some unequivocal evidence is required and you have not produced any.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM

Well, here's a fine example of Jim's aggressive or dismissive 'when he hasn't got anything else' kind of ad hominem [or in this case ad feminem] argument, the use of which he attempts to refute: ~~

'rather than quotes from a prostitute who was also reported to have said "kiss me quick, I'm coming".'

A very young woman, in the course & hassle of a prominent trial, produced a brilliantly brief but apposite riposte to a pompous counsel's question, such as possible affected the outcome of the trial, and so impressed everybody that it is enshrined in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, no less.

But she happened to like sex, and even, perish the thought, made her living by indulging this taste and exploiting her youthful attractiveness [she wasn't any sort of street whore, but a successful call-girl among the rich & distinguished who could pick and choose]. So, according to Jim-logic, that means we can absolutely discount her brilliant and apposite apothegm, because a prostitute who liked to come during the course of sexual stimulus ipso facto disqualified anything she said on any topic from consideration.

Oh, come on yourself, Jim ~~ YOU can do better than that, surely!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 03:50 PM

"Again, not true Jim."
As Mandy Rice Davis said.....
"YOU can do better than that, surely!"
You have ignored every point about Keith's performance her - as I thought you would, and you are now adopting his tactics of distortion and evasion.
One thing that has impressed me about this thread is the patience and tolerance that has been shown here towards his open dishonesty, his failure to even bother to argue, and his constant insults thrown at everybody who dared to suggest that Israel might just be guilty of those crimes it has been accused of, that the evidence suggests it was guilty of and was protected from charges of war crimes by persistent and long term UN vetoes.
Nobody has "run out" of anything here - Keith offered nothing to start with, we have offered plenty, and could easily offer more should we feel the game was in any way worth the candle - why bother when what you offer is either dismissed out-of-hand or totally ignored?
You, apparently are refusing to respond to the list of examples given just as he has refused all requests of substantiation of his claims or response to ours - which makes you on par with him, and just as lacking in self-respect in doing so publicly.
And then there were two.
I'm gone.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM

Is that last post addressed to me? It is entirely incoherent. I genuinely cannot make head or tail of what you are trying to say, Jim. I genuinely do fear that you are losing it. Very, very sad!

Or can anybody perhaps point me some way in the direction of whevs it might be that Jim thinks he is on about? Have I missed something, or is it really as diffuse a piece of drivel as I think ~~ and fear?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 06:03 PM

he has refused all requests of substantiation of his claims or response to ours.
I have had enough of that serial lie now Jim.
I have offered over and over again to substantiate anything I might inadvertently missed.

You have failed to identify a single one and still have not.
It is all just bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:02 AM

It is all just bluster...
,..,\
Absolutely. Just the word. As I say, dismissive bluster & assertive but baseless bluster are J's fall back when he hasn't anything else. See my example 4 posts back, which I think, with all due modesty, absolutely, in the lit-critical sense, absolutely 'places' Jim Carroll.

He keeps saying 'goodbye, I'm out' [another of his emotive evasions] & then coming back 3 minutes later with another right-off-the-point supposed clincher.

Well, when I say it I mean it. I am off. No point going on bashing head against the brick wall of evasion & incomprehension & bluster that goes by the name of J Carroll any longer.

Adieu, thread.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:19 AM

Just to add, tho: trouble is, I fear, that there are times when he is, and topics which reduce him to the status of, not-right-bright. I haven't forgotten that he once launched an attack on me based on the use of the word 'educated' as a term of abuse...

Well, I mean..

I know it was quite a while back; but then he never tires of raking up again&again&again a 3-year-old post whose significance he has time-&-again been shown to have missed entirely, as if it were some fire-new-minted knockdown proof of something or other...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:28 AM

09 Mar 13 - 01:30 PM

As you have decided not to back up your own 'information' (sic)

Just give me an example Jim.
I promise to substantiate or withdraw.
Or is it just more empty bluster because you have nothing else?


11 Mar 13 - 05:15 PM

Jim, I keep asking you what you want substantiated, and you just keep accusing me of not doing it.
Just say what you want.

12 Mar 13 - 09:52 AM

If we have to go through your whole book we will be here for years.
Remind me why we have to discuss this piece of history anyway.
Do you still want me to substantiate anything?

12 Mar 13 - 10:31 AM


If I have failed to substantiate something, just tell me what it is.
You can't though.
It is just bluster.


12 Mar 13 - 04:19 PM

Again you accuse me of unsubstantiated claims.
Remember you accused me of making up two incidents from Siegel's testimony?
I substantiated both and you had to apologise twice.
How could you forget?

13 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM

Not one single link here concerns the poisoning of Bedouins, the fascist eviction of one racial group to make room for another, the massacre of 3,500 unarmed and helpless refugees, the use of chemicals on human beings and livestock - or any single one of the disgusting claims you have made here

No Jim, it is YOU who have claimed all those things but failed to substantiate one of them.

14 Mar 13 - 08:53 AM


I can substantiate anything you ask me to, but you are frightened to ask because you know I do not lie.

14 Mar 13 - 10:59 AM

I CAN substantiate anything.
You dare not ask.
All bluster.
You lose.

17 Mar 13 - 06:03 PM

I have offered over and over again to substantiate anything I might inadvertently missed.

You have failed to identify a single one and still have not.
It is all just bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 06:20 AM

10 Mar 13 - 04:02 AM

So be specific.
Which statements of mine are unsupported?
Which legitimate site have I rubbished?

11 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM

My last post is sourced from Kahan, NYT Sept 26 1982, and Fisk's report all of which you have quoted.
Would you like any repeated Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:59 AM

""Unlike you, I just need to see some evidence of it before I believe it.
I agree that Israel's denial is not evidence, but if they refute an accusation, some unequivocal evidence is required and you have not produced""

We have produced yards of evidence, which, beyond a reasonable doubt (and in some areas beyond any possible doubt) proves Israel to be an opressive state which treats not only its minorities, but also its neighbours as targets for its insatiable desire for expansion.

So, what you are saying is that no evidence produced against the Israeli government and IDF by outsiders, or Israelis, is acceptable to you.

In other words the only acceptable evidence would be a confession by the Israeli government.

Talk about bias! You go much further to one side and you'll fall off the edge.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:17 AM

Completely untrue Don.
You and Jim have asserted that Israel is guilty of far worse crimes than those of, say, Syria or Iran when EU and other nations imposed restrictions and sanctions on them.

That has not happened to Israel because it is not guilty of such things.

The "evidence" you and Jim have supplied is equivocal to say the least, and mostly relies on "eye witnesses" who we know are more than capable of making up lies to damage Israel.

It is not just Israel that denies these lurid accusations.
Not one progressive liberal democracy regards Israel as a criminal or terrorist state.
It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM

Don,

So what YOU are saying is that no evidence produced FOR the Israeli government and IDF by outsiders, or Israelis, is acceptable to you.



Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:49 AM

I've just read through this thread with great interest. Everything Stringsinger and his fellow travelers says is so very true. It is all information we've known since 1903 when the Protocols of the Learned Elders oz Zion was first published. READ THE PROTOCOLS with an open mind and you will know the truth as Stringsinger and so many others do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:18 AM

The problem is one of complete denial offered as a defense of the brutality of Israel.
There has been sufficient evidence presented and rejected by the Zionist reactionaries here that hasn't changed the actual reality of the situation. Although Hamas is culpable in the past of reacting with violence, this doesn't change the sanguinary warlike machine of Israel who one would think would know better after suffering the horrible Shoah and not take on the manifestations of the captors. Instead, they've built up their armaments with the help of the U.S. military and have become one of the leading exporters of arms and military intelligence, not a good qualification for a peaceful country. (The same can be said for the U.S. as well).

Fortunately, within Israel, reasonable heads prevail that decry what Netanyanhu, Abgidor Leiberman, Moshe Dayan and other war lords are forcing others to obey. I applaud those with Jewish heritage such as Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Goldstone and others who are blowing the whistle on this rank military adventure by Israel. The BDS movement in no way calls for the abolition of Israel as a country. This is a flagrant distortion offered by AIPAC and the Israeli government propaganda machine. BDS calls for reform by Israeli politicians who are tilting at historical windmills.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:56 PM

Contrary to what Stringsinger says above, Moshe Dayan is not "forcing" anyone to "obey" anything. He's been out of the Israeli government since 1979 and dead since 1981.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM

He may be gone but the warmongering spirit lingers on. Check this out!

Israeli Aggression

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:18 PM

So, better they should let Syria supply Hezbollah with missiles to kill Jews, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:36 PM

So, better they should let Syria supply Hezbollah with missiles to kill Jews, right?

Well, we let the US supply Israel with missiles (or the bankrolling needed to produce them, same thing really) in order to attack, well, whoever they feel like attacking. They have a good record of so doing, too. Any moral equivalence there?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:48 PM

Willful ignorance makes it's appearance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:08 PM

""You and Jim have asserted that Israel is guilty of far worse crimes than those of, say, Syria or Iran when EU and other nations imposed restrictions and sanctions on them.""

LIAR!

We have discussed Israel's actions which you have tried to excuse on the basis that other countries behave worse. It is you who constantly drags other countries into the debate and I can't help wondering.

If you are so adamant that Israel is behaving reasonably, you shouldn't need to compare their record with any other country.

So perhaps you are not as certain as you claim, or perhaps you know you are wrong and simply cannot stand to admit it?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:11 PM

""So what YOU are saying is that no evidence produced FOR the Israeli government and IDF by outsiders, or Israelis, is acceptable to you.""

Neither you nor Keith have so far produced any, so, unless you can and do, you might as well go back to sleep BB.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:58 AM

Don, if I make an error of fact (I don't believe I have) you could just identify it and I would apologise and withdraw.
Instead you screech "liar" in large font capitals.
Why?
It indicates an emotional involvement I find curious and distasteful.
Can we not discuss this like grown-ups?

perhaps you are not as certain as you claim
I have never claimed certainty.
I just point out the absence of evidence for your lurid assertions.
I make none myself.

Israel's actions which you have tried to excuse on the basis that other countries behave worse
No.
Not to excuse anything.
I make the comparison to expose the hypocrisy and prejudice of those who single out Israel for attack when it is far from being the worst offender, if an offender at all, while ignoring the crimes of real and serious offenders even in the same region.
Like you and Jim do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM

""Instead you screech "liar" in large font capitals.""

Because, as I went on to explain, that sentence was a LIE!

Tell a lie and I will call you on it, so try something new. Read the rest of the post and respond to the whole thing, rather than continue your devious cherry picking of a word or phrase and twisting it entirely out of the context in which it appeared.

By now you should have noticed that we are wise to all your little tricks.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM

I re-read your post and there is no explanation of any lie.
I do not lie Don.

Read the rest of the post and respond to the whole thing,

Your post had 3 sentences.
The first was about bringing other countires to the discussion, which I replied to.

The second sentence, "adamant that Israel is behaving reasonably" I refuted by saying that I never claimed certainty or excused anything.

That answered your third sentence too.

Having screeched "liar" in large font capital letters with an exclamation, I think you should justify that childlike outburst Don.
I do not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:56 AM

""I make the comparison to expose the hypocrisy and prejudice of those who single out Israel for attack when it is far from being the worst offender, if an offender at all, while ignoring the crimes of real and serious offenders even in the same region.
Like you and Jim do.""

I note the sudden appearance of the phrase ""if an offender at all"", following my last post but one.

It would appear that you did after all read my 10:08 post, and that it touched a nerve.

Feeling somewhat less certain, or attempting to hide the fact that you never were certain?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:01 AM

""The second sentence, "adamant that Israel is behaving reasonably" I refuted by saying that I never claimed certainty or excused anything.""

You certainly never excused anything, contenting yourself, throughout this thread, with simply denying everything.

Untruths and half truths and being economical with the truth are all forms of lying in which, I'm afraid, you specialise.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:07 AM

I told you, and it is true, that I have never claimed certainty.

However, no rational, intelligent person can believe your lurid accusations (that are clearly not believed by any progressive, liberal democracy) without some convincing evidence.

None has yet been produced.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:11 AM

Willful ignorance makes it's appearance.

Now let's see if I have this right. You have decided who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. You have decided that those who you have decided are the bad guys have no right to get their hands on weapons. You have also decided that there is nothing wrong with those who you have decided are the good guys getting such massive amounts of assistance from us here in the west that they can get enough weapons to put them in the top five armies in the world (in spite of being about as populous as Scotland). You have decided that, even in the face of massacres and repeated invasions of surrounding sovereign territory, slaughter on a massive scale of civilians and the theft of land for settlements, those who you have decided are the good guys are still the good guys. Perhaps, in the light of this, you'd care to expand on why it's me who's showing the wilful ignorance around here. Failing that, I'm more than happy for you to continue to make your unsupported throwaway remarks, which are nothing if not amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:20 AM

""LIAR!

We have discussed Israel's actions which you have tried to excuse on the basis that other countries behave worse. It is you who constantly drags other countries into the debate and I can't help wondering.

If you are so adamant that Israel is behaving reasonably, you shouldn't need to compare their record with any other country.""

There, emphasised, is the explanation of my comment, the existence of which you just denied.

And if you feel that the actions of other countries are germane to the issue under discussion, I would love to hear your explanation (or more likely rationalisation) of your adamantine refusal, in the Gaza thread, to discuss the creeping annexation of the West Bank, which the UN has branded illegal.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:27 AM

It is not Bobad who decided that Hezbollah "have no right to get their hands on weapons"

It is the UN and every country in the world except Assad's Syria and Iran.

Scotland is part of UK and quite well armed, and is not surrounded by sworn enemies that have already tried many times to over run and wipe it out.

massacres and repeated invasions of surrounding sovereign territory, slaughter on a massive scale of civilians
That sounds like a terrible country.
It must be a hated international pariah.
Who is it please

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

Only a fool would deduce from my post that I was somehow comparing Scotland militarily with Israel. I was ...no, bollocks, everyone except Keith knows what I meant. Bugger off, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

"Now let's see if I have this right. You have decided who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. You have decided that those who you have decided are the bad guys have no right to get their hands on weapons. You have also decided that there is nothing wrong with those who you have decided are the good guys getting such massive amounts of assistance from us here in the west that they can get enough weapons to put them in the top five armies in the world (in spite of being about as populous as Scotland). You have decided that, even in the face of massacres and repeated invasions of surrounding sovereign territory, slaughter on a massive scale of civilians and the theft of land for settlements, those who you have decided are the good guys are still the good guys. Perhaps, in the light of this, you'd care to expand on why it's me who's showing the wilful ignorance around here. Failing that, I'm more than happy for you to continue to make your unsupported throwaway remarks, which are nothing if not amusing."

As I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

And if you feel that the actions of other countries are germane to the issue under discussion, I would love to hear your explanation

If Israel's supposed crimes are being discussed, it adds perspective to consider how much worse other countries are.

Also, I make the comparison to expose the hypocrisy and prejudice of those who single out Israel for attack when it is far from being the worst offender, if an offender at all, while ignoring the crimes of real and serious offenders even in the same region.
Like you and Jim do Don.

And, I have not lied and do not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM

your adamantine refusal, in the Gaza thread, to discuss the creeping annexation of the West Bank,

Because it added no perspective to the Gaza issues and there was no comparison.
It was an entirely separate issue, and a very complex one.
I suggested, reasonably, that we finish the Gaza discussion first or start another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:37 AM

Two posts, bobad, in which you have actually said precisely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

To someone who says that Syria supplying weapons to Hezbollah is equivalent to the US doing the same with Israel there is nothing to be said except what I did say.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 09:28 AM

Steve,

"the bad guys have no right to get their hands on weapons."

So YOU repudiate the UNR that ended the Lebanon mess?
YOU want to have open warfare again?
YOU want to have civilians killed?


Israel has kept the terms of the ceasefire- Arming Hezboallah is a violation of the UNR that negates the ceasefire.

Any action by Syria or Iran to arm them is a violation that degates the ceasefire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:00 AM

And Israel have never violated UN resolutions? Jeez, do me a favour before I split yet another corset.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:10 AM

Well I think it's terrible that Hezbollah are giving Syria weapons (old stock smuggled in on trucks). I think it's equally terrible that Israel, well-known violator of UN resolutions, well-known illegal owner of nukes, well-known serial invader of surrounding territories and well-known perpetrator of war crimes, including carrying out civilian massacres and leaving cluster bomblets all over farmland in a foreign country, should be provided unconditionally with sufficient wherewithal to blow its neighbours to kingdom come. The whole notion of foreigners feeding wars from outside is utterly repugnant. The least that should happen is that military aid to Israel should become conditional on their making peace with neighbours and desisting from aggression beyond its legal borders. And handing back all that settlement land. Go, Barack. What a legacy you could have.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:13 AM

In his speech to open the 61st General Assembly of the United Nations in September 2006, then-Secretary General Kofi Anan admitted that Israel is often unfairly judged by the international body and its various organizations. "On one side, supporters of Israel feel that it is harshly judged by standards that are not applied to its enemies," Annan said. "And too often this is true, particularly in some UN bodies."1

Despite being the only democracy in the Middle East, Israel routinely faces more criticism and condemnation at the United Nations than any other country, including those that systematically kill their citizens or deny them the most basic of human rights. Even today, both the General Assembly and Security Council continue to pass one-sided resolutions that single out and condemn the Jewish State. Additionally, an overwhelmingly powerful bloc led by the Arab nations promotes a narrow and slanderous agenda meant to isolate Israel that has met little resistance.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/israel_un.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM

well-known illegal owner of nukes, well-known serial invader of surrounding territories and well-known perpetrator of war crimes, including carrying out civilian massacres

We have seen all these lurid assertions from Don and Jim.
They could not substantiate them but I am sure you can Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:23 AM

There is no justification for the violence incurred by either Israel or Syria. Both countries are a deterrent to world peace including the actions of the US in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia and Yemen.

Israel has no reason to be self-righteous about its aggression and expansion. The US has no good reason to support it.

If there wasn't Israeli intransigence, Hezbollah would not have the weight it has now in
defenders. This is also true of Hamas. The more Israel flexes it warlike muscles, the less we can expect these splinter groups to be weakened.

Those that defend either side are asking for trouble. Ban Ki Moon has expressed this view, not that it amounts to much because neither side is listening or caring.

If Israel bombs Syria, the whole idea of peaceful resolution will be destroyed.

At this point in history, the US and Israel are no longer brokers for peace.

Atrocities will continue as they always do in war.

The more civilized a country is, the less they rely on war to solve their problems.

The "true believers" on this thread are perpetuating this madness by choosing sides in a losing proposition for both Israel, Syria and the U.S.

Aggression..............Reaction    and it perpetuates without stopping.

Also, remember, all Jews are not Zionists or pro-Israeli.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:27 AM

If there wasn't Israeli intransigence, Hezbollah would not have the weight it has now in defenders. This is also true of Hamas. The more Israel flexes it warlike muscles, the less we can expect these splinter groups to be weakened.

A central and crucial point, well-made.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:33 AM

Except that Israel does not flex its war like muscles, and has not gone to war for decades except for limited operations against missile offensives.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 12:31 PM

Steve,

"well-known illegal owner of nukes,"


Where is this from???

Israel had a ( unadmitted) nuclear capability BEFORE the UN Treaty, and IF it had signed it would be a nuclear power. There has never been any illegality about it.

UNLIKE Iran, which signed the NPT as a non-nuclear power, promising certain controls in trade for technical assistance, which it then refused to allow, AFTER benefiting from them.


Or are you saying it is illegal for a Jewish state to have WMD??? ( As opposed to the US, Russia, China, GB, or France?)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 02:48 PM

Israel is not recognised as a nuclear state under the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. Israel gets round this by refusing to admit what everyone knows, that it has nuclear weapons.

Your "Jewish state" comment is beneath contempt and marks you out as a bigot and a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:14 PM

What is Israel's answer to the charge of increasing settlements and land grabbing from Palastinians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:50 PM

Israel is not a signatory to the treaty so not bound by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:07 PM

"Except that Israel does not flex its war like muscles, and has not gone to war for decades except for limited operations against missile offensives."

This is simply false. Israel has been in a perpetual state of war for the last decade.
There are no limited operations but massive ones killing innocent Palestinians.

Every time a statement is made like this irrationally, it calls for a rebuttal.

The fact that Israel as well as the U.S. is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is disgraceful.

Israel is a Zionist state and not a democracy but a theocracy. I am saying that it is immoral for Israel to have WMD's and not be a part of the NPT.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:12 PM

By any definition it is a democracy.
What wars Stringsinger?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:14 PM

Steve,

And the status of Pakistan ( Moslim) and India (Hindu)? Are THEY illegal for having developed nuclear weapons? If not, why not?


Waiting on your answer before I comment on your comment about the "Jewish" state...



Sorry, I stated
"nuclear capability BEFORE the UN Treaty, and IF it had signed it would be a nuclear power. There has never been any illegality about it."

This is a true statement, regardless of your desire to make it a crime. Israel is NOT a signatory to the NPR, and is not bound by it, NOR does it get the benefits that Iran did, before Iran violated the treaty. NOT a matter of getting around a treaty it did not sign.

So you think it is better to violate an international treaty like Iran has done than to be one of several countries that does not sign it? THAT is what you are implying.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:21 PM

"The fact that Israel as well as the U.S. is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is disgraceful."




Israel is not, but would have been a Nuclear power if it had signed.

The U.S. IS a signatory to it, AS A NUCLEAR POWER.






No disgrace except for those making incorrect statements, Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM

Opened for signature in 1968, the Treaty entered into force in 1970. On 11 May 1995, the Treaty was extended indefinitely. A total of 190 parties have joined the Treaty, with five states being recognized as nuclear-weapon states: the United States, Russia, the United Kingdom, France, and China (also the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council).

Four non-parties to the treaty are known or believed to possess nuclear weapons: India, Pakistan and North Korea have openly tested and declared that they possess nuclear weapons, while Israel has had a policy of opacity regarding its own nuclear weapons program. North Korea acceded to the treaty in 1985, but never came into compliance, and announced its withdrawal in 2003.

he NPT is often seen to be based on a central bargain: "the NPT non-nuclear-weapon states agree never to acquire nuclear weapons and the NPT nuclear-weapon states in exchange agree to share the benefits of peaceful nuclear technology and to pursue nuclear disarmament aimed at the ultimate elimination of their nuclear arsenals".[




...........

Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons[6][7] and to be the sixth country in the world to develop them.[1] It is one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), the others being India, Pakistan and North Korea.[8] Israel maintains a policy known as "nuclear ambiguity" (also known as "nuclear opacity").[9][10] Israel has never officially admitted to having nuclear weapons, instead repeating over the years that it would not be the first country to "introduce" nuclear weapons to the Middle East, leaving ambiguity as to whether it means it will not create, will not disclose, will not make first use of the weapons or possibly some other interpretation of the phrase.[11] The "not be the first" formulation goes back to before March 11, 1965, when a cable from the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv to Washington noted "The Government of Israel has reaffirmed that Israel will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Arab-Israel area."[12] Israel has refused to sign the NPT despite international pressure to do so, and has stated that signing the NPT would be contrary to its national security interests.[13]
Israel started investigating the nuclear field soon after its founding in 1948 and with French support secretly began building a nuclear reactor and reprocessing plant in the late 1950s. Israel is alleged to have developed a nuclear weapon in the late 1960s, but it is not publicly confirmed.[dubious – discuss] Mordechai Vanunu, a former Israeli nuclear technician, provided explicit details and photographs to the London Sunday Times of a nuclear weapons program[14] in which he had been employed for nine years, "including equipment for extracting radioactive material for arms production and laboratory models of thermonuclear devices."[15]
Estimates as to the size of the Israeli nuclear arsenal vary between 75 and 400 nuclear warheads, with most estimates at less than 200 warheads. It is also estimated that Israel has the ability to deliver them by the intercontinental ballistic missile Jericho III, aircraft, and submarine.[2]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:41 PM

" I am saying that it is immoral for Israel to have WMD's and not be a part of the NPT"


Of course, you will apply the same to India, Pakistan, and North Korea????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM

It's no use BB, "there's none so blind as those who will not see."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:55 AM

Yesterday.
Don, please explain what was the lie you shreekingly accused me of, and if Israel treats " its neighbours as targets for its insatiable desire for expansion." how come it is still so very, VERY tiny?

Steve, " well-known perpetrator of war crimes, including carrying out civilian massacres"
Who is it "well known" to?
Any respectable governments?

Stringsinger, apart from limited operations against war criminals who murder ordinary Israelis, what are these continuous wars that Moshe Dayan has been leading his spectral armies in?
In what way is Israel a "theocracy" when the whole world knows it is a secular, liberal democracy?
You also refer to Israel's "expansion."
So why is it so tiny?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:03 AM

BBC today.

Jordan's King Abdullah II has said Egypt's president has "no depth" of understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In interviews with The Atlantic magazine, the king said Mohamed Morsi was fixated on the Israelis, rather than looking at "the mess" on the Palestinian side.

King Abdullah also served up views of Turkish and Syrian leaders.

The Atlantic article was based on a series of meetings with the king.

The interviews were conducted by US journalist Jeffrey Goldberg.

In one comment, the 51-year-old king said he was wary of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey for being authoritarian, and promoting what he said was just a softer-edged version of Political Islam.

"Erdogan once said that democracy for him is a bus ride," King Abdullah told the magazine. " 'Once I get to my stop, I'm getting off'."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:33 AM

""Despite being the only democracy in the Middle East, Israel routinely faces more criticism and condemnation at the United Nations than any other country, including those that systematically kill their citizens or deny them the most basic of human rights.""

Oh of course! Israel shouldn't be criticised, because it only kills the citizens of its neighbours, whenever and wherever it so chooses.

Apparently aggression is the new defence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:45 AM

Egypt is a neighbour.
Any killed other than by Arabs?
Jordan is a neighbour.
Any killed by Israel.
Syria, apart from a couple of illegal gun runners to Hezbollah.
Only Gaza then, and only because Gaza initiated a criminal, indiscriminate programme of missile attacks against ordinary, cowering Jewish families.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:46 AM

""In what way is Israel a "theocracy" when the whole world knows it is a secular, liberal democracy?
You also refer to Israel's "expansion."
So why is it so tiny?""

So why do you, BB and Bobad keep referring to it as a ""Jewish State?""

As to expansion, it's a bit difficult to answer without mentioning the creeping annexation of the West Bank, which you don't want to admit or discuss.

But in any case, Israel is a lot less tiny than it was in 1948 when it came into existence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:54 AM

Israel is NOT a lot less tiny than it was in 1948 when it came into existence, but a lot more tiny than when it held half of Egypt!

Are you saying that because it is sometimes referred to as The Jewish State it is not a secular democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM

Israel is one of the tiniest nations on the face of the earth... only about 8,000 sq. miles, 2½ times the size of Rhode Island and only slightly larger than the Canary Islands!. It is only 260 miles at its longest, has a 112-mile coastline, 60 miles at its widest, and between 3 and 9 miles at its narrowest! A very high-powered rifle could launch a projectile right across the country! This is particularly frightening when one considers that 65% of Israel's population is within this 9-mile wide section (Tel Aviv area). Yet Arab propagandists call Israel "expansionist" and the "aggressor" against all Arab peoples. For those unfamiliar with the Arab interpretation of "aggressor," it means one who dares fight back against Arab aggression!! So even though Israel may have fought only defensive wars, the mere fact that she resisted total destruction is viewed as an "act of aggression." That's a case of wacky logic but, unfortunately, Israel doesn't have the luxury of picking her enemies!
http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 11:46 AM

The fact that this is a tiny area doesn't make up for the fact that it has one of the most extensive armaments in the world including nuclear bombs. The incursion into the Palestinian areas can hardly be called "defensive". That's Orwellian and wacky logic.

The history that Bobad supplied was interesting but incomplete, however, I do agree with him that this Mid-East war is a religious one between Judaism and Islam.

This supports my thesis that most wars can be reduced to religious conflict. That's a separate thread, however.

The reason Bobad and BB refer to it as a Jewish state is that is it now a theocracy.
Not all Jews support Zionism and Israeli policies.

And yes, BB it is immoral for these countries to deny the NPT as well. They are India, Pakistan, Israel and Cuba. North Korea signed and then unsigned later.

Israel: has not publicly conducted a nuclear test but has never admitted or denied possessing nuclear weapons. However, it is believed that Israel does posses nuclear weapons based on how much fissile material (highly enriched uranium and plutonium) the country is known to have produced. Fissile material is an essential component in order to create nuclear weapons.

Iran: is not known to posses any nuclear weapons or adequate fissile material to build any. However, the International Atomic Energy agency (IAEA) – the a UN organization in charge of ensuring that states do not build nuclear weapons illegally - concluded in 2003 that Iran had tried to establish the capacity to build fissile material. Iran's nuclear program is under continuing investigation by the IAEA.

So Israel and the U.S. have WMD's but Iran doesn't. This smacks of hypocrisy by Israel and the U.S. as an excuse to bomb Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:06 PM

There are theocracies in Israel's neighbourhood but it is a secular democracy by any definition except Stringsinger's.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM

Bobad, this is nonsense. It is predicated on the notion that a religious group, (and Judaism is a religion) owns the land by virtue of their beliefs. It is not a secular democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:35 PM

It is a secular democracy and not a theocracy.
I defy you, Stringsinger, to find any reputable source to substantiate your latest, ludicrous, load of bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:41 PM

It is NOT predicated on the notion that a religious group, (and Judaism is a religion) owns the land by virtue of their beliefs.

It is predicated on the fact that a secular, international body, the UN,
with the blessing of almost the entire world, gave a tiny sliver of the vast lands of the Middle East as a homeland for the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:06 PM

""Are you saying that because it is sometimes referred to as The Jewish State it is not a secular democracy?""

Are you saying that Jewish is a race and not a religious persuasion.

Because that would be a lie, and you don't lie, so you keep telling us.

Your constant reference to it as a ""Jewish State"" is nothing more or less than a subterfuge in a futile attempt to get one of us to make a comment you can twist into antisemitism.

Israel's Jewish population is 6 million, which is 75.4% of the total 7.98 million. Just over 20% are Arab, with about 4% described as "other".

So only somewhat less than half of the world's 13 million Jews are Israeli.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:27 PM

Christian countries
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):
[edit]Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize Catholicism as their state or official religion:
Alsace-Moselle
Costa Rica[2]
Liechtenstein[3]
Malta[4]
Monaco[5]
Vatican City (theocracy)
Other
A number of countries, including Andorra, Argentina,[6] Dominican Republic, El Salvador,[7] Panama, Paraguay,[8] Peru,[9] Poland,[10] Portugal and Spain[11] give special recognition to Catholicism in their constitutions despite not making it the state religion.
All Swiss cantons give official recognition to both the Roman Catholic Church and the Swiss Reformed Church, except Geneva and Neuchâtel. Switzerland itself has no official religion.
[edit]Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdictions which recognize one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as their state religion:
Greece: Church of Greece[12]
Other
The Finnish Orthodox Church[13] is not the state religion of Finland but has a special relationship with the Finnish state. The internal structure of the church is described in the Orthodox Church Act. The church has a power to tax its members and corporations if a majority of shareholders are members. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the state does not have the authority to affect its internal workings or theology.
[edit]Protestantism
[edit]Lutheran
Jurisdictions which recognize a Lutheran church as their state religion include the Nordic countries. Membership is very high among the general population, however the amount of actively participating members and believers is considerably lower than in many other countries with similar membership statistics. Furthermore, all of these churches have lately seen decline in the fraction of the population being members.
Denmark (Church of Denmark)[14] Also the Church of the Faroe Islands is the state church of the Faroe Islands, a territory of Denmark.
Iceland (Church of Iceland)[15] (76.81% of population members at 1 January 2012) [16]
Norway (Church of Norway) [17]
Other
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act.[13] The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the parliament. The Church Act is protected by the Finnish constitution, and the state can not change the Church Act without changing the constitution. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations unless a majority of shareholders are members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards.[18] (77.2% of population members at the end of 2011).[19] The Finnish president also decides the themes for the intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.
Sweden relegated their state church, Church of Sweden, to a national church in 2000. In late 2011 the Church of Sweden had 68.8% of the population as its members in 2011 although only around 20% of the Swedish population believes in any religion. Memberships are high because until 1996 membership was compulsory, all born before 1996 have to actively leave the church.[20]
[edit]Reformed
Jurisdictions which recognize a Reformed church as their state religion:
Tuvalu (Church of Tuvalu)
Other
The Church of Scotland is recognized as the national church of Scotland, but is not a state church and thus differs from the Church of England. Its constitution, which is recognised by acts of the British Parliament, gives it complete independence from the state in spiritual matters.[21]
All Cantons in Switzerland give recognition to the main churches, i. e. both the Swiss Reformed Church and the Roman Catholic Church, except Geneva and Neuchâtel. Switzerland itself has no official religion.
[edit]Anglican
See also: State religion#Tabular summary
Jurisdictions that recognise an Anglican church as their state religion:
England (Church of England)
The Church of England is the officially established religious institution [22] in England, and also the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion. It is the only established Anglican Church. The British monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and is Defender of the Faith. In 19th century England there was a campaign by Liberals, dissenters and nonconformists to disestablish the Church of England, even when most of its privileges had been removed by Parliament. The campaigners styled themselves "Liberationists" (the "Liberation Society" was founded by Edward Miall in 1853). Though their campaign failed, nearly all of the legal disabilities of nonconformists were gradually dismantled. The campaign for disestablishment was revived in the 20th century when Parliament rejected the 1929 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, leading to calls for separation of Church and State to prevent political interference in matters of worship.
Lords Spiritual, who are the 26 most senior Archbishops and Bishops in the Church are reserved seats in Parliament in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop of York, Bishop of London, Bishop of Durham, and the Bishop of Winchester sit automatically with the 21 longest-serving Bishops. Both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party have proposed reserved seats for the Lords Spiritual in a reformed House of Lords which would contain elected members. Plans to reform the house however, have been abandoned for this current Parliament and so all 26 Lords Spiritual remain in their reserved seats.
[edit]Muslim countries
Main articles: Political aspects of Islam, Sharia, Caliphate, Islamic religious police (disambiguation), and Islamism

This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2012)
Many Muslim-majority countries recognize Islam as their state religion. Proselytism on behalf of other religions is often illegal.
[edit]Islam (non-denominational)
Iraq
Pakistan
[edit]Sunni Islam
Afghanistan
Algeria
Bangladesh (Since 1988, when government reformed the constitution and add a new provision 2(a) which refers the state religion is Islam)
Brunei
Comoros
Egypt
Aceh Province of Indonesia
Jordan
Libya
Maldives
Malaysia
Mauritania
Morocco
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates
[edit]Shi'a Islam
Iran (Theocracy)
[edit]Ibadi
Oman
[edit]Mixed Shia & Sunni
Kuwait
Yemen (Zaydi fiqh among Zaydi Shias)
Bahrain
[edit]Sufi
Somalia (Ahlu Sunna Waljama'a controlled regions)
[edit]Buddhist countries
Governments which recognize Buddhism, either a specific form of, or the whole, as their official religion:
[edit]Theravada Buddhism
Cambodia[23]
Other
The constitution in Sri Lanka accords Buddhism the "foremost place," However, Buddhism is not recognized as the state religion.[24]
Likewise, in Thailand, the 2007 Thai constitution recognized Buddhism as "the religion of Thai tradition with the most adherents" However, it is not formally named as state religion.
[edit]Vajrayana Buddhism
Bhutan (Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism)[25]
[edit]Israel
Israel is defined in several of its laws as a "Jewish and democratic state" (medina yehudit ve-demokratit). However, the term "Jewish" is a polyseme that can relate equally to the Jewish people or religion (see: Who is a Jew?). The debate about the meaning of the term Jewish and its legal and social applications is one of the most profound issues with which Israeli society deals.
At present, there is no specific law or official statement establishing the Jewish religion as the state's religion. However, the State of Israel supports religious institutions, particularly Orthodox Jewish ones, and recognizes the "religious communities" as carried over from those recognized under the British Mandate. These are: Jewish and Christian (Eastern Orthodox, Latin [Catholic], Gregorian-Armenian, Armenian-Catholic, Syrian [Catholic], Chaldean [Uniate], Greek Catholic Melkite, Maronite, and Syrian Orthodox). The fact that the Muslim population was not defined as a religious community is a vestige of the Ottoman period[citation needed] during which Islam was the dominant religion and does not affect the rights of the Muslim community to practice their faith. At the end of the period covered by this report, several of these denominations were pending official government recognition; however, the Government has allowed adherents of not officially recognized groups freedom to practice. In 1961, legislation gave Muslim Shari'a courts exclusive jurisdiction in matters of personal status. Three additional religious communities have subsequently been recognized by Israeli law – the Druze (prior under Islamic jurisdiction), the Evangelical Episcopal Church, and the Bahá'í.[26] These groups have their own religious courts as official state courts for personal status matters (see millet system).
The structure and goals of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel are governed by Israeli law, but the law does not say explicitly that it is a state Rabbinate. However, outspoken Israeli secularists such as Shulamit Aloni and Uri Avnery have long maintained that it is that in practice. Non-recognition of other streams of Judaism such as Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism is the cause of some controversy; rabbis belonging to these currents are not recognized as such by state institutions and marriages performed by them are not recognized as valid. As of 2011 marriage in Israel provides no provision for civil marriage, marriage between people of different religions, marriages by people who do not belong to one of nine recognised religious communities, or same-sex marriages, although there is recognition of marriages performed abroad.
[edit]Additional notes
Nepal was once the world's only Hindu state, but has ceased to be so following a declaration by the Parliament in 2006.
Many countries indirectly fund the activities of different religious denominations by granting tax-exempt status to churches and religious institutions which qualify as charitable organizations.[27][28] However, these religions are not established as state religions.
[edit]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:29 PM

In case that much strains some here...


Jurisdictions that recognise an Anglican church as their state religion:
England (Church of England)
The Church of England is the officially established religious institution [22] in England, and also the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion. It is the only established Anglican Church. The British monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and is Defender of the Faith. In 19th century England there was a campaign by Liberals, dissenters and nonconformists to disestablish the Church of England, even when most of its privileges had been removed by Parliament. The campaigners styled themselves "Liberationists" (the "Liberation Society" was founded by Edward Miall in 1853). Though their campaign failed, nearly all of the legal disabilities of nonconformists were gradually dismantled. The campaign for disestablishment was revived in the 20th century when Parliament rejected the 1929 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, leading to calls for separation of Church and State to prevent political interference in matters of worship.
Lords Spiritual, who are the 26 most senior Archbishops and Bishops in the Church are reserved seats in Parliament in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop of York, Bishop of London, Bishop of Durham, and the Bishop of Winchester sit automatically with the 21 longest-serving Bishops. Both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party have proposed reserved seats for the Lords Spiritual in a reformed House of Lords which would contain elected members. Plans to reform the house however, have been abandoned for this current Parliament and so all 26 Lords Spiritual remain in their reserved seats.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:31 PM

AND England is a Nuclear Power!!!


With conquered territories all over the world- When will they let them go free??????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:50 PM

"Jewish State" is just a common, alternative label for Israel.
It's use does not alter the fact that Israel is a liberal, secular democracy.
"The term "Jewish state" has been in common usage in the media since the establishment of Israel, and the term was used interchangeably with Israel. The first US official to use the term was then United States Secretary of State Colin L. Powell in a 2001 speech on the Middle East, in which he briefly called on Palestinians to recognize Israel as a "Jewish state" after an Israeli diplomat convinced an aide to slip the phrase into his speech. George W. Bush used the term in his speeches and in a controversial exchange of letters with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2004.[2] Obama has also adopted the phrase, most recently in a speech in September 2010 to the U.N. General Assembly"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:52 PM

Israel is a Jewish state (The ONLY one), just as many countries are Christian states, and even more are Muslim states.


Not a single Muslim state has a tenth of the percentage of world Muslims that Israel has of the world's Jewish population.


But it seems to ONLY be a problem for Jews. Everyone else can have as many states as they want and no one complains. Right, Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:57 PM

Your constant reference to it as a ""Jewish State"" is nothing more or less than a subterfuge in a futile attempt to get one of us to make a comment you can twist into antisemitism.

Not me Don.
It is just a common usage.
Whatever you choose to call it, Israel is a liberal and secular democracy, and Stringsinger talks complete bollocks from a position of extreme ignorance, and I am amazed that you choose to align yourself with him and appear to be as stupidly ignorant as he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:12 PM

Which Christian theocracies are you going on about, Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:35 PM

"the term "Jewish" is a polyseme that can relate equally to the Jewish people or religion"

Not according to our resident experts on Jewish matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 08:10 PM

Israel is a liberal and secular democracy

OH, I believe you, Keith, but thousands wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:01 AM

Eric Silver writes in the February, 1990 issue of Political Quarterly:

Israel's Proclamation of Independence makes few concessions to the Almighty. The word 'God' does not appear, though there is a passing reference to trusting in the 'Rock of Israel'. Israel, it decrees, will be a Jewish state, but the concept is nowhere defined. The state, it says, 'will be based on the principles of liberty, justice and peace as conceived by the Prophets of Israel; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of religion, race, or sex; will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, education and culture; will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and will loyally uphold the principles of the United Nations Charter'.

Every student of modern Israel should reread the proclamation of May 14, 1948, at least once a year. It is a reminder of the secular vision of the founding fathers. Israel was to be a modern democratic state, an expression of Jewish nationalism rather than Jewish faith. The text reads as if the drafting committee was more familiar with the American and French revolutions than with the intricacies of Talmud. The phrase 'as conceived by the Prophets of Israel' is little more than rhetoric. Which of the Prophets were they talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:11 AM

The 2013 Freedom in the World annual survey and report by U.S.-based Freedom House, which attempts to measure the degree of democracy and political freedom in every nation, ranked Israel as the Middle East and North Africa's only free country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:54 AM

http://www.freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/FIW%202013%20Booklet.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 06:38 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 08:10 PM

Israel is a liberal and secular democracy

OH, I believe you, Keith, but thousands wouldn't.""

Most of them Bedouins!

Israel is governed by a bunch of zionist theocrats, with a liking for annexing other peoples territory, and a total and arrogant disrespect for national borders, which they violate whenever the fancy takes them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 08:04 AM

DonT is reverting back to the same old lies because the previous few posts have totally destroyed his contentions re the terms "Jewish state" and "theocracy".......squirming much Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 08:52 AM

Israel is governed by a bunch of zionist theocrats,
No Don.
By elected politicians, including no Rabbis.

with a liking for annexing other peoples territory,
Not true Don.
Having defeated an invasion, they did hold on to some of the land used to invade them.
That is all.

and a total and arrogant disrespect for national borders, which they violate whenever the fancy takes them.
Not when the fancy takes them.
Just temporary crossings to stop murderous, illegal, inhuman missile attacks on their cowering families.

Mostly Bedouins
No, they are a minority, but they are thriving and increasing so rapidly that could change!
They are full citizens and luickier than their brethren elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:24 AM

"" ranked Israel as the Middle East and North Africa's only free country.""

I wouldn't disagree with that, given that the whole area is menaced by Israel's massively greater capacity for mayhem and genocide.

Free, however, in this case doesn't necessarily mean democratic, with a hard line government which operates without respect or concern for public opinion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:34 AM

I doubt whether the average Palestinian in Israel, stuck needlessly at a checkpoint for two days, would regard himself as free. Or the guy whose olive grove was wrecked so that the apartheid wall could be driven through his family farm. Or the parents of teenagers shot by remote-controlled unmanned rifles at the Gaza border. Or the Bedouins kicked out of their villages. Or the people driven off the best West Bank land in order for ever more illegal settlements to go up. Whether you're free or not depends on a little more than your country's ranking on a rather facile three-point scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:42 AM

You forgot to mention that they have their missile firing and suicide bomber brethren to thank for the security precautions so I will do it for you. You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 11:06 AM

"" ranked Israel as the Middle East and North Africa's only free country.""

I wouldn't disagree with that, given that the whole area is menaced by Israel's massively greater capacity for mayhem and genocide.

The whole of North Africa and the whole Middle East all menaced by a tiny sliver of land invisible on most maps.
Is Israel responsible for the mayhem in Syria, Egypt, Yemen, Libya, Tunisia, Mali, Algeria, ......

Don, when Israel is mentioned you become irrational and lose your reason.
You are even more comical than Stringsinger's barmy bloopers!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 11:09 AM

Or the parents of teenagers shot by remote-controlled unmanned rifles at the Gaza border.
You made that up Steve!
Also the "driving off" of people from West Bank.

Those internet sites are based on hatred not truth Steve.
You are being hoodwinked.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:27 PM

Keith, the tiny sliver of land that you talk about is not being threatened by all the countries that you cite as being "Arab".

"Freedom House" is a propaganda NGO that follows the automaton line of the current Neo-liberal side of U.S. policy. It's exoneration of Israel is laughable. As for the "Jewish State" line, Judaism remains a religion, not a nationality.

To sound like a broken record, there are many Jews in the world who don't consider Israel as a complete "Jewish State". They don't believe it represents them in their religion. You are the one who is being hoodwinked by a policy that can only end up in Israel being a pariah in the entire world for their inhumane bloodletting of Palestinians. Many of the bombs they have dropped on Palestine during operation "Cast Lead" for example contain depleted uranium which have doomed the children of Palestine who survive with radiation and cancerous growths.

As for "Loopy bloopers" this defines your remarks perfectly.

Bobad, I will not descend into your cesspool of ad hominem remarks. Your tantrums are babyish and you should grow up and discuss this issue like an adult.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:10 PM

Stringsinger, it is not possible to have an "adult" conversation with those who insist on continually repeating the same old lies to bolster their argument and I will call them out on it whenever I want to whether you like it or not. Oh, and BTW, this whole thread is premised on a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM

Bobad, in that case, your assessments as to what are lies and what is reality is skewed.
You have chosen to cop out of a discussion rather than debate the facts. Here's one fact you should consider.

Israel and America

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM

And here's one for you to consider: Gaza rockets hit Israeli town during Obama visit

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM

What is your evidence for dismissing Freedom House?
Is it not widely respected and quoted?

What is your evidence for depleted uranium munitions in Gaza?
They are only useful for piercing armour so I do not believe it.

To sound like a broken record, there are many Jews in the world who don't consider Israel as a complete "Jewish State".
Obviously, because it is not!
It is multi ethnic and multi faith.
They don't believe it represents them in their religion.
Obviously, because it does not.
It is a secular state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM

You forgot to mention that they have their missile firing and suicide bomber brethren to thank for the security precautions so I will do it for you. You're welcome.

Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come. Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza. Using white phosphorus to light the way for bombing schools. Stealing the best land for settlements. Throwing Bedouins out of their villages. Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps. Any chance of your going through these one by one and telling me how each of them adds up to a "security precaution?"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

And here's how it should have looked:

You forgot to mention that they have their missile firing and suicide bomber brethren to thank for the security precautions so I will do it for you. You're welcome.

Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come. Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza. Using white phosphorus to light the way for bombing schools. Stealing the best land for settlements. Throwing Bedouins out of their villages. Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps. Any chance of your going through these one by one and telling me how each of them adds up to a "security precaution?"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

UNHCR.
"Freedom House is a clear voice for democracy and freedom around the world. Since its founding in 1941, Freedom House has been a vigorous proponent of democratic values and a steadfast opponent of dictatorships of the far left and the far right"
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher/FREEHOU.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM

What is your evidence for dismissing Freedom House?

So we're supposed to give credence to an extremely crude three-point scale, eh? Come on, Keith. You'll have to do better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:54 PM

And as I have said before, Israeli governmental policy is apparently not interested in peace in the region but a continuation of dominance over the Palestinian people.

Here's a problem to discuss rationally and not with invective. Hamas and Fatah are a problem for the Palestinian people because they are not together and have antiquated policies. Hamas is not supported unilaterally by the Palestinian people in Gaza. To punish the Palestinian people for Hamas is the ignorant reaction of the Israeli government who incites this terrible reaction.

The settlements in Ariel, Ma'ale Adumin are designed to cut the West Bank into strips and deny the Palestinians the Statehood that they deserve. An illegal occupation is not
self-defense.

Now I expect that we can discuss this without temper tantrums and childish outbursts.

I deplore violence of any kind but I see that the policies of Israel with support from the United States are not in the interest of peace but Israeli expansionism. This has to change.

Peace will come when Palestinians are given a right to their homeland as Israel requires for its self.

The U.S. has got to stop giving Israel armaments that amount to $115 billion a year. This is more than we have given any other country for weaponry.

Taking sides on this issue by proclaiming self-righteous condemnation will not make peace in the region happen. It is the responsibility of course of Israel and the Palestinians but status quo is not the answer.

In the meantime, if the U.S. continues to take sides by supplying one country with weaponry and ignoring Palestinian prisoners subjected to torture, the abuse of Palestinian people, the starving by controlling the amount of goods these people can receive, by keeping them from actually having any semblance of a democracy, they will not be an honest broker.

Israel will never be a democracy in the truest sense until there is a parity between Palestinians and themselves. They will continue to be dictators.

Now that's a real fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM

.Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come.Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come. Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza. Using white phosphorus to light the way for bombing schools. Stealing the best land for settlements. Throwing Bedouins out of their villages. Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps. Any chance of your going through these one by one and telling me how each of them adds up to a "security precaution"

OK Steve.
That hazard from cluster bombs was not recognised at the time.
Most countries used them.
Since it became known, responsible countries like Britain and Israel have ceased to stock or use them.
Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza.
Made up.
Throwing Bedouins out of their villages.
No-one is allowed to set up home wherever they want.
Bedouin who have done that have been resettled from their tents and shacks with no services or sanitation into decent homes.

Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps.
Israel denies ever having done that, and there is no unequivocal evidence for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM

Israel doesn't have to make a single concession, ever. In fact, it can continue to take whatever it likes with impunity, and it does. Sitting down to peace talks would involve compromises, and Israel does not have to, and won't, make any compromises. Why should it? So there will be no peace talks and no Palestinian state. That is the last thing Israel wants, a sovereign state right next door full of the enemies it's managed to make down the decades. The reason for this parlous stalemate is the continuing unconditional bankrolling of Israel's military by the US. That will continue to be unconditional because the Israel lobby, led by AIPAC, does not permit any talk of making aid to Israel conditional on Israel's good behaviour. Actually, there is rarely, if ever, any real talk about what really goes in Israel at all in the US Congress. It is simply not tolerated by AIPAC et al. To go against that, to stir anything up, would be political suicide. To find out what is really happening to the Palestinians you have to dig much deeper than most Americans are willing to dig. Israel is a little tail leading a huge great big dog by the nose. Witness Obama's soft talk in Jerusalem today. He's going nowhere and neither are the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:25 PM

full of the enemies it's managed to make down the decades.

Not down the decades Steve.
Five Arab armies invaded Israel on its first day of existence.
What had Israel done in 24 hours to make all those enemies?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:26 PM

Wiki: Israel dropped up to four million submunitions [cluster bomblets] on Lebanese soil, one million of which remain unexploded "duds," according to the United Nations Mine Action Service. Throughout the thirty-four-day conflict, the United States resupplied Israel's arsenal of cluster bombs, which prompted an investigation by the State Department to examine if Israel had violated secret agreements it signed with the United States governing their use.
"Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Dan Halutz plans to appoint a major general to investigate the use of cluster bombs — some of which were fired against his order — during the Lebanon war. Halutz ordered the IDF to use cluster bombs with extreme caution and not to fire them into populated areas. Nonetheless, it did so anyway, primarily using artillery batteries and the Multiple Launch System (MRLS). IDF artillery, MLRS and aircraft are thought to have delivered thousands of cluster bombs, containing a total of some 4 million bomblets during the war."
Human Rights Watch said there was evidence that Israel had used cluster bombs very close to civilian areas and described them as "unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians" and that "they should never be used in populated areas." Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of using cluster munitions in an attack on Bilda, a Lebanese village, on 19 July which killed 1 civilian and injured 12, including seven children. The Israeli "army defended ... the use of cluster munitions in its offensive with Lebanon, saying that using such munitions was 'legal under international law' and the army employed them 'in accordance with international standards.'" Foreign Ministry Spokesman Mark Regev added, "[I]f NATO countries stock these weapons and have used them in recent conflicts — in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq — the world has no reason to point a finger at Israel."

Note that final dismal comment by a Keith clone there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:28 PM

No-one is allowed to set up home wherever they want.

Someone forgot to tell the thousands of West Bank settlers that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM

President Obama's speech today in Jerusalem made me proud to be an American, a supporter of Israel, an advocate for peace and for a Palestinian state.

It is the Obamas of this world, not the Stringsingers, who will make this planet a better place.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 09:22 PM

You appear to be a resident of the land of Cuckoo in the zone beyond the clouds, oh proud American "guest".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 09:28 PM

full of the enemies it's managed to make down the decades.

Not down the decades Steve.
Five Arab armies invaded Israel on its first day of existence.
What had Israel done in 24 hours to make all those enemies?

Very defensive Keith, but wide of the mark, unfortunately, because you are doing your usual instinctive blame game stuff and I am doing the de facto stuff. Israel has accumulated several generations-worth of new enemies since 1948. All those original ones are dead. By your logic (not a word I readily associate with you, actually) Israel, by now, shouldn't need the fifth biggest army on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:17 AM

I agree Steve.
Israel was originally hated just for existing, but why has that hate persisted?

Perhaps because, unlike the Jews, the Arabs refused to allow their refugees to settle in their vast lands.
They were kept in abject squalor and deprivation in refugee camps.
Each new generation was taught that the Jews were responsible for their plight and that they had a sacred duty fight them.

With each failed attempt to wipe out the Jews the humiliation and losses were used to fuel more hatred, and so it goes on.

Had those refugees been allowed to be productive citizens, like the Jewish ones, that original hate would indeed be forgotten and the region, with its wonderful climate, magnificent scenery and beaches and incredible historical heritage would be the most blessed and prosperous place in the world instead of a basket case beggared by 60+ years of hatred and war.

My question to you Steve.
What could the Israelis have done differently in the face of all those attempts to over run and wipe them out?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:29 AM

Won't bother to try and catch up - all been said before by the atrocity denier and his nodding dog.

"What had Israel done in 24 hours to make all those enemies?"
Possibly went from house to occupied house throwing hand grenades through the windows of Palistinian homes, making it clear what lengths they were prepared to go to t secure the Promised Land, maybe (it's all a part of history)

"Made up."
"A journey through time and consciousness, 18 tours to some of the approximately 400 Palestinian villages and urban neighborhoods, whose residents fled or were expelled in 1948. Most of their homes were wiped off the face of the earth immediately afterward, generally without even a sign.
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2012-08-31/gideon-levy-arab-villages-bulldozed-from-our-memory/

"The following night [i.e., following the riot at the Haifa refinery] the Arab village of Balad es Sheik, which lies three miles southeast of Haifa, was attacked by a strong party of armed Hagana, who entered the village dressed as Arabs under heavy covering fire from the high ground. Firing sub-machine guns and throwing grenades into the houses, they succeeded in killing 14 Arabs, of whom 10 were women and children, and wounding 11. Their own casualties were slight."
http://www.robincmiller.com/melinkfr.htm

Been there, done that, and you still have produced no evidence to back up your denials"No-one is allowed to set up home wherever they want."
To move a whole community off tribal lands that they have occupied for centuries is an act of state fascism.
The fact that this has been done in order to build homes for Jewish settlers is an act of institutional racism.
The fact that they intend to move them to a proven and widely recognised toxic dump is an act of potential mass murder, (albeit over an extended period) is a cold blooded act and an indication of ethnic cleansing.
The Bedouins who are to be expelled have occupied this land centuries before the Israelis arrived on the scene.
It is little wonder that the Israeli regime is detested and mistrusted.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:02 AM

Back already Jim?
Why so monochrome?

you still have produced no evidence to back up your denials"
You have that the wrong way around.
We await unequivocal evidence to support your assertions.
I only deny being convinced. Evidence not needed.

To move a whole community off tribal lands that they have occupied for centuries is an act of state fascism.

The Bedouin were nomads who roamed all the lands from the Arabian Sea to the Med.
That does not entitle them to build shacks or pitch tents anywhere they like today.

The fact that they intend to move them to a proven and widely recognised toxic dump is an act of potential mass murder
Same old lie Jim.
The only toxic dump is where they have illegally settled.

It is little wonder that the Israeli regime is detested and mistrusted.
Not by the Bedouin who enthusiastically fight for Israel against their Arab "brothers."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:57 AM

""Don, when Israel is mentioned you become irrational and lose your reason.
You are even more comical than Stringsinger's barmy bloopers!""

When that tiny sliver (to use your ridiculously misleading description) is the only state with the capacity to render any, or all, of its neighbours uninhabitable for a very long time, and it is governed by a hard line bunch of aggressive militarists who, at the first sign of a neighbour attempting to achieve military parity (not superiority) threaten to destroy that neighbour, it is not irrational or unreasonable to believe that it needs to be reined in.

At what point will you begin to see what the Israeli government is actually doing?

In 1950, the population of Israel was about 2.3 millon, of which just over half were Jewish. Today it is over 6 million, of which 75 percent are Jewish.

Looking at the map of Palestine, Israel now covers the vast majority of that area.

The Palestinians occupy the Gaza strip (now there is a tiny sliver) and a steadily eroding portion of the West Bank, where they are gradually being driven out by the establishment of Israeli settlements.

A cursory glance at the maps on the following link will confirm the way in which anything that is left of Palestine is being systematically squeezed out of existence by Israel, in the search for "lebensraum".

scroll down to maps

And when that is over, with a still increasing Israeli population, fully backed by Uncle Sam, who will be next?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM

Unless you can prove your statements you are lying.
The Bedouins live in tribes, the tribe under threat of eviction has occupied this particular territory for centuries - this is long established and recognised.
You obviously have no concept of how nomadism works
I repeat, to move them in order to make room for Jewish settlers is an act of racist fascism.

"The only toxic dump is where they have illegally settled."
Been through this - you have been given all the factors as to why this dump is toxic - you have refused to respond
The decision to move them there has been described as an international crime against humanity by the UN, which is why they have halted the move for the time being.
The "illegal" site you mention is one that has been settled because those there have no alternative (the situation with most travellers the world over, including in Britain).
The Israelis have long been fully aware of the dangerous conditions there and have, up to now ignored them, but have been forced by public outcry to acknowledge them as wrong
This month the Israeli government have blocked a bill aimed at moving the Bedouins to safer conditions - politicians eh - the same the world over!!
"The Ministerial Legislative Committee ruled on Sunday that the government would oppose a bill seeking to ban residence within a five-kilometer radius of the national hazardous waste disposal site at Ramat Hovav."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/ministers-nix-bill-to-move-bedouin-living-near-toxic-disposal-site-1.248274
The Bedouins are an oppressed minority in Israel - you still have to respond to the fact that the Israelis are using toxic sprays on their crops and livestock.

"fight for Israel against their Arab "brothers."
With one small exception this is no longer the case
"Until 2000, each year between 5%–10% of the Bedouin population of draft age volunteered for the Israeli army, and Bedouin were well known for their unique status as volunteers. The legendary Israeli soldier, Amos Yarkoni, first commander of the Shaked Reconnaissance Battalion in the Givati Brigade, was a Bedouin (born Abd el-Majid Hidr). Today the number of Bedouin in the army may be less than 1%.[232] A 2003 report stated that willingness among Bedouin to serve in the army had drastically dropped in recent years, as the Israeli government has failed to fulfill promises of equal service provision to Bedouin citizens.[233] However, a 2009 article in Haaretz stated that volunteer recruitment for a crack elite Bedouin army unit rose threefold.[234]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

You have been given evidence of the murderous clearances of the villages - over 400 of them.
Unless you can prove otherwise, your accusation that this is "made up," it is (once again, and with boring regularity) you who is lying - address the evidence, which is a proven and long established fact of history.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:12 AM

""The only toxic dump is where they have illegally settled.""

That little factoid has been exposed more than once.

The Bedouin were there before the dump, so why was it built right alonsid them?

Obviously to make them leave, only for ten years they've not had anywhere to go to.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:29 AM

It's a waste of time!

The cretin who implicitly believes every single utterance of the Israeli government, and calls all evidence to the contrary lies or prejudice, regardless of the credibility of the source, calls us irrational.

If he knew what the word means, I might be worried.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM

The cretin who implicitly believes every single utterance of the Israeli government, and calls all evidence to the contrary lies or prejudice, regardless of the credibility of the source, calls us irrational.

If you mean me, I do not implicitly believe anyone.
If Israel denies something, and you have no unequivocal evidence of it, and it is not accepted as true by any reputable nation, I am entitled to say that I am not convinced.
Why are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

"You have that the wrong way around.
It's appears to be you who has it the wrong way round
The way you appear to think it works is that we produce the evidence along with the links to the source - you deny it without evidence of your own or links to your information.
Don't work like that.
It has taken a few postings and a half dozen links to reduce your claims to rubbish fit only for the proposed Bedouin site - it really is as easy as that.
Without evidence or links your statements are entirely your own invention.
I trust we've heard the last about the destroyed villages, toxic sites, Bedouin support for Israel, fascist enforced re-sitings to make room for settlements - and all the other garbage?
To misquote you evidence (culture last time) is all.
So if you could spare the time to dig up some it would save us wasting our time.
As it stands, the only value your 'contributions' have is to provide us with a close-up example of how an inarticulately rabid fanatic operates
BTW Don - do you really think he believes the shit he writes?   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM

Destroyed houses search.
Hamas Set to Demolish Homes of 75 Families in Gaza City | Jewish ...
www.algemeiner.com › News › IsraelFeb 13, 2013 – Hamas is set to demolish the homes of 75 families in Gaza City nearly a year after a court ruled that they were built on public property.
Hamas to demolish 40 Gaza homes | Al Akhbar English
english.al-akhbar.com/node/14954Feb 13, 2013 – Gaza's Hamas government is set to demolish 40 houses in central Gaza city, nearly one year after a court ruled the neighborhood to be public ...
Hamas to raze 180 Gaza houses to erect Islamic religious center ...
www.haaretz.com/.../hamas-to-raze-180-gaza-houses-to-ere...

by Avi Issacharoff
May 21, 2010 – ... for Human Rights says Gaza authorities already destroyed 20 homes, ... said that Hamas plans to use the same pretext to demolish houses in ...
Hamas Gov't Demolishes Arab Homes in Gaza - Middle East - News ...
www.israelnationalnews.com › NewsFeb 13, 2013 – The Hamas government has issued an order to demolish 75 homes belonging to PA Arabs in Gaza City. The UN has made no comment.
Hamas violently kick Palestinians out of homes and destroy them in ...
► 2:34► 2:34
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNnhTjkuAU
Jul 3, 2010 - Uploaded by 91177info
Hamas the government of Gaza have started destroying Palestinian ... Hamas violently kick Palestinians ...
More videos for hamas destroy houses gaza »
BBC News - Hamas wrecks 'illegal' Gaza homes
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8687974.stmMay 17, 2010 – Hamas demolishes dozens of homes in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, ... Palestinians are more used to seeing homes destroyed in areas ...
What Harriet Sherwood missed while in Gaza: Hamas to demolish ...
cifwatch.com/.../what-harriet-sherwood-missed-while-in-gaza-hamas-...Feb 14, 2013 – Hamas, the de-facto Palestinian authorities in Gaza, have the right to demolish Palestinian houses in the Palestinian territory if needed for ...
Israel-Hamas 'Open War': LIVE UPDATES — RT News

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:38 AM

I trust we've heard the last about the destroyed villages,
See above.
toxic sites,
I provided evidence that Israel's refuse sites are well run and not toxic.
There is a site for toxic waste in the Negev that people should not live near. Israel wants to move them.
Bedouin support for Israel,
Strong as ever.
fascist enforced re-sitings to make room for settlements - and all the other garbage?
Garbage indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

The Bedouins live in tribes, the tribe under threat of eviction has occupied this particular territory for centuries - this is long established and recognised.
You obviously have no concept of how nomadism works Jim!

They do not occupy land they wander through putting up tents for temporary stops.
That does not give them the right to build anywhere they want in the whole Middle East!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM

But Israel believes it has the right to build wherever it wants.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 08:27 AM

It has planning laws like every country.
Israeli settlers have been bulldozed out for breaking them too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:45 AM

Israeli settlers have been bulldozed out for breaking them too

Now that really IS amusing, in a disgusting sort of way.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM

"They do not occupy land they wander through putting up tents for temporary stops"
Pratt - they live in villages and construct houses - each tribe has its own recognised territory.
"Counter to the image of the Bedouin as fierce stateless nomads roving the entire region, by the turn of the 20th century, much of the Bedouin population in Palestine was settled, semi-nomadic, and engaged in agriculture according to an intricate system of land ownership, grazing rights, and water access"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Bedouin

"There is a site for toxic waste"
Nobody has suggested these are specifically "toxic waste sites" and you know this - you have had this pointed out a dozen times
These sites are toxic by their very nature; the Israeli health authorities themselves have made this clear and any scientific study will show that any site is dangerous to anybody living in the vicinity.
You have been given their statement to that effect. They also point out that this toxicity will remain for at least ten years.
Anybody living in the proximity of that site is subject to poisoning, particularly through the water, but also in other ways - you have been given that information also stop lying.
This link includes photos of the prevailing condition of the proposed site and there are plenty more to illustrate links above which you have ignored
IT IS A TOXIC SITE
Nobody is defending Hamas's action in any way - you are attempting to hide behind the actions of what you have described as a terrorist regime in order to defend the destruction of over 400 villages.
You can't even claim that Hamas's actions are in any way comparable - 400 VILLAGES compared to WHAT?
"Now that really IS amusing, in a disgusting sort of way"
Keith specialises in sick, unfunny humour
Respond to what you have been given - with real evidence and links, not self-invented garbage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:35 AM

""BTW Don - do you really think he believes the shit he writes?""

I'm very much afrai that he does Jim.

Why else would he look at the wealth of evidence we have produced, from sources Arab, neutral and Israeli and lump it all together as lies, prejudice and hatred of Israel?

Why else would he repeatedly tell us we are being duped by anti Israel Israelis for Christ's sake?

Give him a dozen eye witnesses and ""eye witnesses tell lies"".

He's apparently unaware that the vast majority of eye witnesses report honestly and truthfully what they see, but Israel cannot be at fault, so they must be lying.

The same with evidence from Associated Press ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Reuters ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from UNHRA ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from B'tselem ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Jewish human rights organisations ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Canadian doctors and nurses ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Israeli soldiers and ex soldiers ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Bedouins living on the edge of a rubbish dump ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Bedouins in long established villages where it has taken ten years to get a water supply, which, when it arrived was a single tap three miles away. ""ALL LIES!""

Everybody lies except Israel and Keith!

Mad as a box of frogs!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM

Nobody has suggested these are specifically "toxic waste sites" and you know this - you have had this pointed out a dozen times
No. You always refer to "toxic waste sites."
Your meaning is not at all clear Jim, but I am clearer now.

Non toxic waste sites are not toxic.
If not run properly there can be environmental issues, but Israel's, like the ones around Hertford, are properly run and not a danger to anybody.
These sites are toxic by their very nature;
No they are not.
the Israeli health authorities themselves have made this clear
No they have not.
and any scientific study will show that any site is dangerous to anybody living in the vicinity.
Bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:45 AM

""They do not occupy land they wander through putting up tents for temporary stops.
That does not give them the right to build anywhere they want in the whole Middle East!""

I have already produced evidence refuting this particular lie!

The Bedouins next to that toxic dump are not, and for six hundred years have not been, nomadic.

They have been settled for all that time raising cattle, sheep and camels.

They were occupying that land when the Israeli government decided, IIRC, 38 years ago, to site a toxic facility on their doorstep.

During the 38 years in question the Israelis have shown no interest in alleviating the health situation, but suddenly they are infused with a desire to move them to a "better" home.

Pardon me if I view that with a large helping of cynicism.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:46 AM

Don.
He's apparently unaware that the vast majority of eye witnesses report honestly and truthfully what they see

I accept that is generally the case Don, but there is an industry devoted to smearing Israel.
Need I remind you of the examples of the "eye witness" liars I mentioned.
Only fools lap up all the propaganda without question.
Democratic governments are not fooled and do not treat Israel as a criminal or terrorist state.

I believe Fisk.
I believe Siegel.
I believe all the sources on your list except those soldiers who did not tell their stories until long after the enquiries.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:49 AM

The Bedouins next to that toxic dump are not, and for six hundred years have not been, nomadic.

Not true Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM

Israel's population has more than tripled since 1950, and something has to go to make room for them.

That something is going to be the Arabs!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:55 AM

""The Bedouins next to that toxic dump are not, and for six hundred years have not been, nomadic.

Not true Don.""

I gave you chapter and verse on this and you blanked it.

Go back and read the f**king thing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:00 AM

If it hadn't been for the fact that Israel would have been liable for human rights abuses charges the Bedouins would have been moved onto this heap of shit long ago
Fisk and Seigal both produced evidence of Israel's complicity - want be to put it up again
Seigal specifically said that she saw the bulldozers burying bodies - not in her letter - that fact was established long ago
Happy to dig it out again
More holiday snaps
Jim Carroll

"The Israeli Ministry of Environment says it has demanded the Abu Dis landfill to be shut and rehabilitated years ago. In operation since the 1980s, the ministry says it lacks the infrastructure to deal with the amounts of waste that are dumped in it daily, compounding the damage to its surroundings."
Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/03/palestinian-bedouins-threatened-eviction.html#ixzz2OHPs2Li2"
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2012/12/20121217125028262988.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
And the proposal that has just been vetoed out
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164618#.UUxus34pDvg

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:07 AM

Seigal specifically said that she saw the bulldozers burying bodies - not in her letter - that fact was established long ago

Where DID she say it then Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:08 AM

Happy to dig it out again
A better attitude than Don's.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM

Perhaps Don is as pissed off as I am your refusing to read or acknowledge everything that has been given to you
In the meantime:
"I believe Robert Fisk"
Who wrote - (always on the understanding that you don't believe the bits that don't suit your case of course)
Jim Carroll

"But in Beirut, the victims were Palestinians. The guilty were certainly Christian militiamen - from which particular unit we were still unsure - but the Israelis were also guilty. If the Israelis had not taken part in the killings, they had certainly sent militia into the camp. They had trained them, given them uniforms, handed them US army rations and Israeli medical equipment. Then they had watched the murderers in the camps, they had given them military assistance - the Israeli airforce had dropped all those flares to help the men who were murdering the inhabitants of Sabra and Chatila - and they had established military liason with the murderers in the camps"
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4733.htm

I saw hundreds of Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners, probably well over 1,000, sitting in its gloomy, dark interior, squatting in the dust, watched over by Israeli soldiers and plain-clothes Shin Beth (Israeli secret service) agents and men who I suspected were Lebanese collaborators. The men sat in silence, obviously in fear. From time to time, I noted, a few were taken away. They were put into Israeli army trucks or jeeps or Phalangist vehicles–for further "interrogation".

"All the Israelis knew what had happened inside the camps. The smell of the corpses was now overpowering. Outside, a Phalangist jeep with the words "Military Police" painted on it–if so exotic an institution could be associated with this gang of murderers–drove by. A few television crews had turned up. One filmed the Lebanese Christian militiamen outside the Cite Sportif. He also filmed a woman pleading to an Israeli army colonel called "Yahya" for the release of her husband. (The colonel has now been positively identified by The Independent. Today, he is a general in the Israeli army.)"
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:28 AM

Photo of audience listening to Pres. Obama speak in Israel

"This is in Israel and the speaker is Obama. Where else could you see hijabi Muslim women sit in the front row next to men.

Breaks every stereotype, doesn't it. Who would've expected hijabis in an Israeli audience? After all, its an apartheid state, isn't it?"

BTW the above was written by a Muslim.....thank you Tarek.

Also interesting to note is that the image was not published in any newspaper in the world even though Getty released it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:29 AM

The first paragraph is not disputed.
The other two paragraphs are about events after the massacre, and are not disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:40 AM

Actually, Bobad, in interests of accuracy, that photo, or a companion one from a slightly different, full-face-on, angle which makes the point even more clearly, is on p37 of today's The Times.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:59 AM

More Fisk And a bit of Ellen Seigal thrown in for good measure.
Jim Carroll
"The survivors tell distressingly similar stories. Bahija Zrein says she was ordered by an Israeli patrol to go to the Cite Sportif and the men with her, including her 22-year-old brother, were taken away. Some militiamen–watched by the Israelis–loaded him into a car, blindfolded, she claims. "That's how he disappeared," she says in her official testimony, "and I have never seen him again since."

"The idea that the Israelis went on handing over prisoners to their bloodthirsty militia allies never occurred to us. The Palestinians of Sabra and Chatila are now giving evidence that this is exactly what happened. One man, Abdel Nasser Alameh, believes his brother Ali was handed to the Phalange on the morning of the 18th. A Palestinian Christian woman called Milaneh Boutros has recorded how, in a truck-load of women and children, she was taken from the camps to the Christian town of Bikfaya, the home of the newly assassinated Christian president-elect Bashir Gemayel, where a grief-stricken Christian woman ordered the execution of a 13-year-old boy in the truck. He was shot. The truck must have passed at least four Israeli checkpoints on its way to Bikfaya. And heaven spare me, I realise now that I had even met the woman who ordered the boy's execution."
"says she was taken to the Cite Sportif where, in one of the underground "holding centres", she saw a retarded man, watched by Israeli soldiers, burying bodies in a pit. Her evidence might be rejected were it not for the fact that she also expressed her gratitude for an Israeli soldier–inside the Chatila camp, against all the evidence given by the Israelis–who prevented the murder of her daughters by the Phalange."

"When we got to the Cite Sportif, the Israelis put us women in a big concrete room and the men were taken to another side of the stadium. There were a lot of men from the camp and I could no longer see my husband. The Israelis went round saying 'Sit, sit.' It was 11am. An hour later, we were told to leave. But we stood around outside amid the Israeli soldiers, waiting for our men."
"There were Israeli trucks moving out with tarpaulin over them. We couldn't see inside. And there were jeeps and tanks and a bulldozer making a lot of noise. We stayed there as it got dark and the Israelis appeared to be leaving and we were very nervous. But then when the Israelis had moved away, we went inside. And there was no one there. Nobody. I had been only three years married. I never saw my husband again."

"They were put into Israeli army trucks or jeeps or Phalangist vehicles–for further "interrogation".

"Along the main road opposite the stadium there was a line of Israeli Merkava tanks, their crews sitting on the turrets, smoking, watching the men being led from the stadium in ones or twos, some being set free, others being led away by Shin Beth men or by Lebanese men in drab khaki overalls. All these soldiers knew what had happened inside the camps. One of the members of the tank crews, Lt Avi Grabovsky–he was later to testify to the Israeli Kahan commission–had even witnessed the murder of several civilians the previous day and had been told not to "interfere".

"I remember the roaring of Israeli tanks and bulldozers as they dug mass graves to bury the dead alive. I remember my injury and the explosion of the rocket or bomb launched by an Israeli tank at the entrance of Shatila from Fakahani and sports city near the intersection that leads to the Cola Bridge and UNRWA headquarters there. I was injured and my Lebanese friend, Mohammad Ali, from the Lebanese city of Baalbek was killed as we tried to stop the bombing and the progress of the tanks toward Shatila."
http://www.safsaf.org/word/2012/des/71.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 12:29 PM

The Palestinians of Sabra and Chatila are now giving evidence

Indeed they are.
Neither Fisk nor Siegel saw any of these things, or were even told about them until much later.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM

"Neither Fisk nor Siegel saw any of these things, or were even told about them until much later."
From Ellen Seigal's account of the massacre
Cheers
Jim Carroll
"As the occupying force in Beirut, the IDF under the command of Ariel Sharon was responsible for the safety of the population. The IDF opened the refugee camps to a militia with a history of hatred and indiscriminate violence against Palestinians. It sealed off the refugee camps. It refused to allow terrified, pleading camp residents to escape through the exits of the camps. The IDF supplied the flares that lit the way for the murderers; it provided a bulldozer to help bury bodies in a mass grave and hide it with earth. And no official intervened when it became clear that innocent lives were being taken."
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 02:04 PM

"Neither Fisk nor Siegel saw any of these things, or were even told about them until much later."
Incidently - do you have any grounds whatever for this nonsensical statement. Ellen Seigal gave evidence to the Israeli Kahan commission enquiry and was fully aware of whet went on.
Fisk investigated the massacre immediately following the events and interviewed in depth eye-witnesses and survivors and victims relatives.
Don't be bloody silly, and don't assume we are.
Links and sources please.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM

Ellen Siegel saw nothing of the massacre.
She is not describing what she saw in that quote.
We have both read her full account of her time in the camps.
She did not see bodies being buried as you claimed.

Fisk arrived after the massacre a couple of hours after Siegel left the camps, and reported no statements implicating Israelis on that day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 02:36 PM

She and Dr Ang Swee Chai were treating and talking to the victims (and a few Phalangints) as there massacre was taking place
Fisk interviewed eye witnesses.
I asked you to provide evidence with links for your ridiculous statement – you haven't - there isn't any – you made it up – you're lying again
You said you only believed Seigal and Fisk - you've been given what they had to say - are they lying or are you - again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 02:48 PM

Neither saw anything of the massacre.
Siegel was unaware that there had been a massacre.

What "ridiculous statement" do you want links to?
Did Siegel see bodies being buried as you claimed?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:00 PM

"What "ridiculous statement" do you want links to?"
""Neither Fisk nor Siegel saw any of these things, or were even told about them until much later." will do for a start.
Please don't be stupid - you've been given her statement - some more.
"The high explosives were coming so close that we had to move the remaining patients to the lower floors. Smoke poured in the windows, windows cracked, doors slammed, equipment reverberated. Everything was shaking. By evening, we heard only the sounds of machine-gun fire. Tending to the very ill was more difficult than usual; to some, the bombardment made the difference between life and death.
That evening a few severely wounded people managed to be brought to the hospital. Among them was a child of 12 who was suffering from shock, a bullet injury in his leg, and an open wound on his hand where a finger had once been; his name was Munir. Treatment of his leg began immediately to prevent amputation. Later that evening, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) was allowed to evacuate a small number of wounded children to a hospital outside of the camp area; Munir was chosen."
Is she lying - you said she and Fisk were the only ones she trusted?
You seem to have forgotten that "she was on top of the hospital building and taking long walks, viewing it all"
You are not even consistent in your lying - you make it up depending on how deep the hole you're in at any given time.
"Siegel was unaware that there had been a massacre."
Who did she/they think they were treating - victims of a traffic pile-up??
We seem to have covered quite a lot of ground since I got back - Non-toxic toxic sites, nomads and their way of life, Sabra and Shatila We even seem to have been put to bed the racist nature of forcibly evicting one people to make room for another.
I will continue to take the fact that you refuse to supply sources or links as evidence that there aren't any and all your statements are invented by you - I'd write them down in future so you don't mix them up.
Mastermind calls - night-night
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:30 PM

Thanks for adding that information about the publication of the photo MtheGM, I was just quoting what my friend Tarek Fatah had posted. Note the lack of commentary from those who insist on labeling Israel an "apartheid" state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:35 PM

Obama's Big Israel Breakthrough: Thursday's speech may have singlehandedly repaired a rocky relationship

"Obama acknowledged—no, he deeply affirmed—the well-earned right of Israelis to be skeptical of appeals to peace. You held out your hand in friendship and made a credible offer for peace and that was rejected, he told us. You withdrew from Gaza and got missiles in return. And when you look around the region, you see instability and wonder how peace can possibly come."

New Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:58 PM

Obama trip a bust

Anyone today who is skeptical of peace is an accomplice to war-mongering.

Peace could come if an honest broker could be found.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:14 PM

Jim.
Fisk arrived after the massacre about 10.30 Saturday.
Siegel left the hospital earlier that same morning.

You have a habit of putting in quotes things I never said.
That is dishonest. Don't.
Siegel DID spend time watching from the top of the hospital.
She did not take long walks, but was marched out of the camp from the hospital.

She was aware of fighting.
The casualties she saw were consistent with fighting in a populated urban situation.
She did not assume a massacre.

I accept everything she describes from her experience, but nothing she saw or experienced supports your view of events.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:17 PM

the fact that you refuse to supply sources or links

I KEEP asking for a specific example.
What is stopping you giving one?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 08:22 PM

To Jim, Don, Stringsinger and other honest contributors to this thread - I know how important it is that we don't let these horrid bigots and truth-deniers hold sway, I really do, but it's my bet that very few people ever open these threads bar you and me and the bigots. I for one have had enough. It could go on for ever. Seriously, and unequivocally, I'm out of this thread and nothing these bigots will say to goad me (and they will try, of course) will draw me in. Please yourselves, but I for one think it's time we starved them of their vile platform. I say let 'em carry on wallowing in their own stinking ordure. There will be another time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 08:53 PM

So wonderful, Steve. I swoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 08:57 PM

Bet he'll bite again, his type always do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:19 PM

If Obama Had Given That Speech at AIPAC ...
... quite a few people in attendance would have booed him.
Jeffrey Goldberg Mar 21 2013, 4:52 PM ET

If Obama had delivered the speech he just gave in Jerusalem to the annual AIPAC convention, he might have been booed. No, check that, he definitely would have been booed. Not by everyone, of course, but by quite a few people. (I've been to enough of them to know.)

He would not have been booed for his vigorous endorsement of the Zionist idea, of course; nor for his promise to stand by Israel though thick and thin; not for his expressions of admiration for Jews and Judaism; and not for the promise to maintain Israel's qualitative military edge; but for asking his audience to sympathize with ordinary Palestinians, who have lousy lives in good measure because of the occupation. He definitely would have been heckled for that one. And I'm sure of one other thing: His endorsement of a Palestinian state, as an answer to the existential dilemma of the Palestinians, and as an answer to the question of whether Israel can maintain itself as a Jewish-majority democracy, would have been met at AIPAC by a combination of tepid applause, silence, and scattered heckling. It's obvious to me that from now on, Obama should deliver his pro-Israel speeches at the Jerusalem Convention Center, not the Washington Convention Center.

The speech was, overall, quite eloquent and strong, and very moving from the Jewish perspective (there were bits that were too naive for me, but more on that later). It is the setting, though, that made it brilliant: Standing ovations from young Israelis for an endorsement of a Palestinian state by an enthusiastically Zionist African-American President whose middle name is Hussein. How, exactly, did he pull that one off?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:59 PM

Ha, ha I knew he couldn't stay out - now he's doing it by PM.

I really feel that he'd be a lot happier if he would unburden himself of his hate. But I wish him well, I really do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:09 AM

I say I have an open mind, and will not believe evil of a people (Israeli Jews and the governments they elect) without evidence.

That is the OPPOSITE of a bigot Steve!

You have passed judgement on a people without evidence to support that judgement.

That defines a bigot Steve.

Stringsinger made false libels against that people in his OP and in the very title of this thread.
No justification because it is actually made up and untrue!

That is the behaviour of a bigot.

Now you say to your friends, let us leave this thread to avoid having our prejudiced beliefs questioned.

That too is the behaviour of a bigot.

Prejudiced bigots tend to be minority groups.
You imagine you are an enlightened majority, but you exist in a bubble where you only debate with other members and you only look at propaganda sources.
You believe that everyone else and the media conspire to deceive you.

Look outside your bubble.
No decent government would have close relations with an apartheid state, or a terrorist state, or a criminal state.
So all the liberal democracies of the world are part of the conspiracy, or duped by it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:31 AM

"I KEEP asking for a specific example."
Who the hell do you think yo are to behave the way you have on this thread
Who gives a toss what you think (or in your case, don't think)?
You haven't backed anything you have claimed with evidence - you don't even bother linking anything you have claimed to real sources.
You have treated the people who have argued with you with utter contempt, dismissing their evidence out of hand as "unreliable, biased, naive, lying, bigoted, antisemitic...... while putting up none whatever up of your own with the exception, by your own admission, of the claims from the perpetrators themselves that they didn't do what they have been accused and proved guilty beyond doubt of doing
You haven't even bothered to be consistent with your unqualified claims; one minute an eye-witness couldn't possibly have seen what she said she saw, next minute she's taking long walks and viewing the massacre from the hospital roof - now we're back to "she and her fellow nurses couldn't possibly have seen anything, this time, with the magnificently Alice in Wonderland addition that they didn't even know the massacre had happened because they weren't told about it till long afterwards how crass can you get?
WHAT ARE YOU ON? - AS STUPIDLY EVIL AS YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST, YOU REALLY HAVE FLIPPED THIS ON THIS ONE.
You have been given miles of proof of Israel's guilt in horrific crimes against unarmed non-combatants - what special insider knowledge gives you the right to dismiss eye witness accounts, results of investigations by reliable and independent bodies and organisations, accredited and trustworthy journalists and newspapers... a whole book based on unimpeachable sources from both sides of the argument? How dare you dismiss out of hand eye-witness accounts by Israeli soldiers who took part in the events, without even bothering to qualify why you dismiss them - WHO THE **** DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?
How dare you reject facts on the poisonous state of the land that Bedouins are probably going to be forced to live on, when it has even been confirmed by the Israeli Health Department that it is toxic and after the United Nations has declared such behaviour to be war crime?
The most comprehensive of the Sabra/Shatila massacre you dismiss as TOO LONG, SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BOTHER READING IT. YOU DON'T EVEN BOTHER TO MENTION THE ONLY INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THAT MASSACRE- the McBRIDE REPORT, WHICH FOUND ISRAEL AND ITS LATER-TO-BE PRIME MINISTER GUILTY BEYOND DOUBT OF A HORRIFIC WAR CRIME
Indisputable evidence of Israeli atrocities you ignore altogether; the use of noxious chemicals - Skunk - on the homes of Palestinians who are in the way of building settlements; the use of toxic sprays on crops and livestock, the physical and mental abuse of children suspected, but not convicted of crimes; racial segregation of public transport (aptly compared to pre-civil rights behaviour in the US)
You have made perfectly clear by your arguments that racism, mass-murder, chemicals used on civilians, the destruction of homes and the indiscriminate slaughter of non-combatants, starvation tactics and racist humiliation, eviction without redress..... and a whole host of crimes against humanity are all OK by you - not one peep of a criticism - in fact, unqualified defence of every single thing Israel has been accused, and would undoubtedly have been found guilty of if the US had not prevented them from coming to trial by power of veto.
Your performance here has been arrogant, crudely shallow, lazy, inept and dishonest throughout.
Your continuing dishonesty in requesting "specific examples" sums your dishonest completely OUT OF CURIOSITY I PUT A FEW UP - YOU IGNORED THEM TOTALLY - IN OTHER WORDS, YOU OPENLY LIED AS I EXPECTED YOU TO   
I have no doubt that you and your nodding dog will describe this as "personal insults because I'm losing the argument" - neither of you seem to be over-endowed with either honesty or self respect.
Steve Shaw is right - you and your shower of bigots really are not worth bothering about - anyway, you've managed to crap in your own nest so blatantly, crudely and overwhelmingly that there really isn't any point in prolonging this any further - to borrow one of your own phrases "our work is done here".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:13 AM

You haven't backed anything you have claimed with evidence
That is because I make no claims.
I just ask for evidence of YOUR claims.
Example.
Yesterday you claimed that Siegel saw bulldozer burials and you would be happy to look it up for us.
We are still waiting Jim.

the McBRIDE REPORT, WHICH FOUND ISRAEL AND ITS LATER-TO-BE PRIME MINISTER GUILTY BEYOND DOUBT OF A HORRIFIC WAR CRIME

No, it ascribed "direct or indirect responsibility," which Israel acknowledged in its own enquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:22 AM

""Only fools lap up all the propaganda without question.""

Says the man who laps up every piece of Israeli propaganda.

Bigger fools believe that every witness against Israel is a liar. The sheer volume of witness evidence makes that an infinitessimal likelihood

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:08 AM

"You haven't backed anything you have claimed with evidence"
That is a VERY stupid and VERY public lie.
Below is a list of links OF EVIDENCE YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN ON THIS THREAD
You may not accept it - you certainly will not like it - but only a moron would attempt to claim it is not EVIDENCE
It comes from varied sources and many of the links contain further links to further verification.
In the main, the people who have provided this EVIDENCE have avoided what we know you would reject out of hand - it didn't matter anyway - you've dismissed or ignored every piece that didn't favour Israel's war crimes.
This is EVIDENCE, it stands as EVIDENCE by every description - it is certainly EVIDENCE of your lying.
What are you going to do - deny that it is EVIDENCE withdraw ytour claim that you have been provided with no EVIDENCE and by doing so, admit that you have been again lying - what - I really am dying to know?
Stop insulting the intelligence of everybody on this thread with your stupidly childish lies
Jim Carroll

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/#ixzz2JxSAeUMd
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/
http://world.time.com/2013/02/01/the-fallout-from-the-air-raid-on-syria-why-israel-is-concerned/#ixzz2JlofwUYJ""
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/19/262446/israels-american-license-for-genocide/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement
http://www.davidsheen.com/racism/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_acfNfFkgw
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2012/10/23/survey-of-israeli-racism-58-of-jews-label-their-state-apartheid/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/briefing-papers/1230-israels-discrimination-against-its-arab-citizens
http://electronicintifada.net/content/un-body-appalled-israels-racial-segregation-policies/11065
http://www.timesofisrael.com/woman-arrested-for-wearing-a-talit-at-the-western-wall/
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/rel-fan-articles.html
http://urj.org/about/union/pr/2012/?syspage=article&item_id=98020
http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=296430
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3480345,00.html
http://www.policymic.com/articles/21819/women-s-rights-in-israel-girls-as-young-as-3-face-gender-discrimination
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israeli-rabbis-ban-home-sale-and-rental-non-jews-2010-12-07
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33429.htm
http://www.sciforums.com/BBC-on-Israel-s-Negev-Bedouin-policy-shame-t-71060.html
ttp://palsolidarity.org/2011/12/khan-al-ahmar-forced-expulsion-of-bedouins-from-area-c/
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israel-cancel-plan-forcibly-displace-jahalin-bedouin-communities-2012-02-08
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/it-s-time-to-intervene-against-racism-in-israeli-soccer-1.422040
http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-gave-israel-green-light-for-sabra-shatila-genocide/5305298
http://www.mideastweb.org/kahan_report.htm
0http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20120924053353687
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/09/22/30-years-after-the-massacre-at-sabra-shatila-new-challenges-grip-lebanons-palestinian-camps/
http://www.niu.edu/phil/~kapitan/pdf/SabraandShatillaMassacre.pdf
http://palestinechronicle.com/old/view_article_details.php?id=19574
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/21/262829/sabra-shatila-and-challenges-ahead/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/4381-survivor-niadal-hamad-qit-is-not-permissible-to-forgetsabra-and-shatilaq
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html
www.economist.com/node/21536645
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/iopt0308/3.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/01/8024
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/2010/08/uprooting-weeds-by-devorah-brous-march.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_al-Na'am
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/313-washington-report-archives-2006-2010/september-october-2007/9446-jewish-american-activist-champions-cause-of-israels-disenfranchised-bedouin.html
http://lordsoftheblog.net/2012/07/10/the-bedouin-of-israel-the-west-bank-and-east-jerusalem/
https://theshalomcenter.org/content/israeli-jewish-renewal-report-bedouin-inside-israel
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57488629/16-egyptian-soldiers-killed-in-sinai-buried/"
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/columns/21-Feb-2013/the-morsi-era
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/18/us-palestinians-tunnels-idUSBRE91H04X20130218
www.economist.com/node/21536645
http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/313-washington-report-archives-2006-2010/september-october-2007/9446-jewish-american-activist-champions-cause-of-israels-disenfranchised-bedouin.html
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/2010/08/uprooting-weeds-by-devorah-brous-march.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075985/Women-told-sit-buses-Israel-despite-practice-outlawed.html
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/05/17194265-a-palestinian-rosa-parks-is-needed-israels-segregated-buses-spark-outrage
http://inminds.co.uk/from-beirut-to-jerusalem.html
http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/truth-about-israels-vile-role-in-1982-sabra-shatila-massacre-of-palestinians/
http://inminds.co.uk/from-beirut-to-jerusalem.html
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/October/4o/Remembering%20Sabra%20and%20Shatila%20and%20atoning%20Ellen%20Siegel.htm
http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/truth-about-israels-vile-role-in-1982-sabra-shatila-massacre-of-palestinians/
http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text
Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/03/palestinian-bedouins-threatened-eviction.html#ixzz2OHPs2Li2"
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2012/12/20121217125028262988.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
And the proposal that has just been vetoed out
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164618#.UUxus34pDvg
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/
http://www.safsaf.org/word/2012/des/71.htm
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM

""Note the lack of commentary from those who insist on labeling Israel an "apartheid" state.""

Nothing much to say Bobad, is there?

We've all seen carefully orchestrated shows before, and if it weren't Israel, you would be among the first to point that out.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

""You withdrew from Gaza and got missiles in return. ""

Which, of course wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that the so called withdrawal was actually state of siege which has resulted in Gaza citizens being shot dead if they approach the border on the Gaza side, fishermen being fired on by Israeli gunboats and restricted to waters away from the fish, and sundry other little peccadilloes, such as bombing the open prison camp they had created back to the middle ages.

A really convincing demonstration of the desire for peace....NOT!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:26 AM

""I for one think it's time we starved them of their vile platform. I say let 'em carry on wallowing in their own stinking ordure. There will be another time.""

Yes, time to go and get a breath of fresh clean air where massacres aren't covered up and bigotry doesn't rule.

I'm with you Steve.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM

Says the man who laps up every piece of Israeli propaganda.
Not true.
You believe every accusation against Israel.
I do not believe a denial of an accusation, I just ask for evidence to support the accusation.
I do not automatically believe anything.
That would make me a bigot.

Jim, did Siegel report seeing burials, or were you wrong to make that claim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 08:00 AM

Lest there be any confusion re my post of 22 Mar 13 - 09:59 PM Steve did not send me a hateful PM, just a mild epithet but I've been called worse things by better people. The hate I was referring to is that expressed towards Israel in his posts and to those who hold differing opinions whom he labels bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:01 AM

"Jim, did Siegel report seeing burials, or were you wrong to make that claim?"
You've seen the EVIDENCE - oh sorry, there was no EVIDENCE at all, was there?
Nurse Ellen Seigal said:
"As the occupying force in Beirut, the IDF under the command of Ariel Sharon was responsible for the safety of the population. The IDF opened the refugee camps to a militia with a history of hatred and indiscriminate violence against Palestinians. It sealed off the refugee camps. It refused to allow terrified, pleading camp residents to escape through the exits of the camps. The IDF supplied the flares that lit the way for the murderers; it provided a bulldozer to help bury bodies in a mass grave and hide it with earth. And no official intervened when it became clear that innocent lives were being taken."
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm
You said:
"I believe Fisk - I believe Siegel." (22 Mar 13 - 10:46 AM)
If she made this up she is a liar - is that now your case, so why not just call her one and be done with it.
She also said:
"Another reason for new interest in this "old news" is the initiation of new court proceedings. A day after the BBC film aired, a formal complaint charging Sharon with war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide was lodged with the Belgian Prosecutor's Office in Brussels on behalf of 28 Lebanese and Palestinian survivors of the massacre. There was a time when terms such as "war crimes, war crime tribunals and crimes against humanity" were associated only with responsibility for the Holocaust. Now they come to mind when we hear names like Pinochet and Milosovic and think of places like Rwanda and Argentina. The connections of these concepts to the actions of the Jewish state, however, remain particularly disturbing. Finally, the current collapse of relations between the Israelis and Palestinians gives us pause to look back. Knowing Sharon's past behavior toward the Palestinians, one can only fear his future actions. The outlook is frightening for both Jews and Palestinians."
I take it that you are not even acknowledge your lying about there being no EVIDENCE - which is EVIDENCE enough of your having lied.
I wonder what you regard Ellen Seigal's statement is if it is notEVIDENCE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:50 AM

Siegel is entitled to her opinions.
I think she has described her actual experience honestly.

She saw no Israelis in the camps.
She saw a bulldozer clearing the ground by the southern entrance.
She saw no bodies being buried.
She said it was yellow so unlikely to be an IDF vehicle.

She reported that her party was saved from execution by an Israeli running from positions outside the camp, and given honey cake that soldiers' mothers had sent them because it was "their Christmas."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 10:51 AM

Piss off Keith - you're making a bigger pratt of yourself than you have already - no, on second thoughts - keep it coming.
If you promise you will then in return I'll happily cut and paste big lumps of EVIDENCE OF ISRAELI ATROCITIES(non-existent, of course, so you will have given me the opportunity to remove any remaining doubts of the nature of the Israeli regime.
Sample one - hundreds more to choose from:

"On April 9, 1948, the Jewish dissident organization, the Irgun Zvai Leumi, massacred 250 residents of Deir Yassin, an Arab village west of Jerusalem. This massacre, the worst ever committed by Jewish terrorists, was condemned at the time by Jewish leaders including Ben Gurion. The Irgun was commanded by Menachem Begin."
Sabra/Shatila by Amnon Kapeliouk

"What therefore did Generals Sharon and Eitan do? The Israeli Army surrounded the camps, disarmed the Lebanese militias hostile to the Phalangists, coordinated the latter's entry into the camps giving them diverse logistical support, and closed its eyes and ears during forty hours of carnage. The result: about 3000 civilians were killed in an orgy of massacres rarely witnessed since World War II."
(ibid)

"Another serious shortcoming of the Kahan Commission's report pertains to the question of responsibility for the massacre. On this matter, the conclusions of the Commission are in contradiction with the facts that are included in its report. The Israeli Army occupied West Beirut and became, according to the most elementary principles of international law, responsible for the peace and security of its civilian population. In addition, Israelis justified their entry into West Beirut under the pretext of their desire "to forestall the danger of violence, bloodshed and chaos." (Final Report, p. 28). On September 16, 1982, the day after the Israeli occupation of West Beirut, the defense minister's office issued a document specifically stating that:
Only one element, and that is the IDF [Israeli Defense Forces], shall command the forces in the area. For the operation in the camps the Phalangists should be sent in. (Final Report, p. 20).
According to the interpretation of the director of military intelligence, "the meaning is that all forces operating in the area, including the Phalangists, will be under the authority of the IDF and will act according to its instructions." (Final Report, p. 20).
On the same day, during a Cabinet session, Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan told Israeli leaders that:
He had informed the Phalangist commanders that their men would have to take part in the operation and go in where they were told, that early that evening they would begin to fight and would enter the extremity of Sabra, that the IDF would ensure that they did not fail in their operation but IDF soldiers would not enter the camps and would not fight together with the Phalangists, rather the Phalangists would go in there "with their own methods ". ... In his remarks the Chief of Staff explained that the camps were surrounded "by us," that the Phalangists would begin to operate that night in the camps, that we could give them orders whereas it was impossible to give orders to the Lebanese Army. (Final Report. p. 26)."
(ibid)

That'll do for now - looking forward to hearing from you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM

You mean you will transpose more huge chunks of your thoroughly unbalanced tome.
Groan.
This bit takes us even further back into history.
65 Years back!
What next. The Crucifixion?
You must know that both sides committed crimes in those times, but you are always silent about Arab crimes against Jews.

Your author has misunderstood the significance of "He had informed the Phalangist commanders that their men would have to take part in the operation and go in where they were told, that early that evening they would begin to fight and would enter the extremity of Sabra, that the IDF would ensure that they did not fail in their operation but IDF soldiers would not enter the camps and would not fight together with the Phalangists, rather the Phalangists would go in there "with their own methods ". ... In his remarks the Chief of Staff explained that the camps were surrounded "by us,"

The "operation" was to take on any fighters.
It was recognised that they were better than IDF in that kind of operation."with their own methods"
None of that is about murdering civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:23 PM

Nope
"The Jenin massacre is mentioned. That never happened."
Israeli Terror in Jenin
Tanks and bulldozers attacked inhabitated homes
Palestinian civilians were used as human shields
"Israel's fiercest assault of its 2-week-old West Bank operation dealt systematic destruction and random death to civilians as well as fighters in this militant Palestinian stronghold (Jenin), according to displaced residents of the camp and relief workers in Jenin...the Israelis fired on unarmed civilians, used them as human shields and obstructed medical workers trying to save the wounded. One camp resident, Ali Ramile, a 40-year-old truck driver, said he watched Israeli soldiers kill seven or eight disarmed Palestinian fighters execution-style and dump several loads of bodies in a mass grave within 100 yards of his home...interviews with more than a dozen Palestinians from the Jenin camp indicated a heavy loss of civilian life there. Nearly everyone interviewed said they had watched neighbors die from Israeli shelling or sniper fire, or at least seen bodies in the street....
"Ten days ago, we hoped someone could do something to save the refugee camp, but now the camp is gone,' said Dr. Ziad Ayaseh, the hospital's director. Israeli missiles took out several water tanks on the roof, threatening the hospital's water supply, he said. The army siege blocked fuel supplies that power the hospital's generator--the only source of electric power. The staff pharmacologist and urologist were slightly wounded by apparently stray army gunfire. A 16-year-old boy was shot dead Thursday on a street in Jenin, half an hour after the army had lifted a curfew to allow the city's residents to move about for the first time in five days, hospital officials say. A 52-year-old woman wounded Monday inside her home in the refugee camp bled to death before relatives could get her to the hospital Thursday, they said. Sameh Abazeineh, an aide to Jenin's mayor, said his 70-year-old neighbor died waving his arms in the air in a futile effort to stop an Israeli bulldozer from destroying his home in the camp. Other residents reported seeing a tank round kill a neighbor who was recharging his cellular phone with his car battery and finding the body of a mentally disabled neighbor who had been shot and run over by a tank. Riad Ghaleb, a 28-year-old produce merchant, said the Israelis targeted his entire camp neighborhood...Helicopter gunships fired on rows of densely packed homes, killing two young boys in their home, he charged. 'After that, I saw five bulldozers and three tanks come in,' said Ghaleb, who walked out of the camp into central Jenin on Thursday. 'Now there are no more houses in my neighborhood. It's all a big highway now.'..
"News agency reporters Thursday (April 11) managed to tour a small corner of the camp, which had been off limits to journalists during eight days of combat. They saw widespread devastation--homes flattened by bulldozers, walls blackened by fire and the streets chewed up by armored vehicles... Roughly one-third of Jenin's 40,000 people lived in cinder-block houses on the refugee camp's narrow streets. The army used bulldozers to knock down homes and clear the way for its tanks...One bulldozer also wreaked destruction in the center of Jenin as it moved behind a tank along Old Castle Street toward the refugee camp. Just before Ahmed and Bassam Fashafsheh's stone home, the street narrowed and the tank couldn't squeeze by. Issam Fashafsheh, a relative, said he watched early this week as the tank fired ...into the house, backed up and moved aside so the bulldozer could advance. The bulldozer knocked in the wall of the living room, killing the middle-aged couple and their 9-year-old son, Samira.
"When Israeli troops entered the camp on foot to search homes for armed militants, they sent captive Palestinian men ahead of them at gunpoint to knock on the doors or break through the walls. The army has acknowledged the practice, saying it discourages armed resistance. Ali Mustafa Sireh, 42, said he was working as such a door-to-door human shield in the refugee camp when, at the 10th house, he was shot in the knee by Israeli snipers who apparently did not see his captors. At that point, he said, the Israelis abandoned him, and it took four days for relatives to get him to the hospital.
"But few experiences capture the terror of the assault like that told by Khadra Samara, 33, whose husband, Hisham, 40, is the Al Razi hospital's cook. She first noticed a tank outside her home at 11 p.m. Sunday (April 7), she said. At 11:30, it knocked down the front gate. 'We screamed and lighted candles to make the Israelis aware that people were in the house,' she said, but the tank kept coming. It fired a missile into the second and third floors, she said, causing a bright flash, shattering the windows and sending all 15 people in the home to the ground floor. The demolition halted until 5 a.m., when the household was awakened by the sound of a bulldozer outside. It slammed into the front of the house, crashing into a large bedroom in which the family had been sleeping, she said. Houses in the camp abut each other, so Samara and her relatives hammered a hole in a side wall and broke in next door, where her sister-in-law's family lives. Less than an hour later, she said, that house came under attack, and 30 people crawled through to the next house in line, which had been abandoned. That refuge stood up until 3 p.m. Monday, when it fell after a three-hour bulldozer assault, she said. 'We moved from the bedroom to the bathroom to the kitchen--wherever we thought was safest,' Samara said. 'The children started vomiting. I phoned the hospital. My husband said to leave the camp immediately. I demanded an ambulance. He said the Israelis won't let one through.' It took them five more hours to talk their way through Israeli checkpoints and reach the hospital, waving white prayer scarves and dodging stun grenades from helicopters that followed them."
--L.A. Times, April 12

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine52.html

The Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, went out of his way to embarrass the divided US administration yesterday, openly thanking the Americans for scuttling the proposed UN investigation of Palestinian deaths in the West Bank town of Jenin.

His remarks were made only hours before he met George Bush in the White House.

There are sharp differences between Israel and the US about the role of Yasser Arafat and Saudi Arabia in future peace negotiations.
The US secretary of state, Colin Powell, played an important part in setting up the Jenin mission, in response to Palestinian claims of a massacre. It collapsed last month, because of Israeli opposition, before it even reached the West Bank.
Addressing the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish American pressure group, Mr Sharon hinted heavily that the Bush administration had ultimately helped block the inquiry. "No nation in the world has the right to bring Israel to court," he said.
"I would like to thank the American administration and its leadership that helped us, understood us, and supported us to get out of this trap."
The speech put the administration in an awkward situation by suggesting that the US had acted privately to thwart a mission it supported in public.
Denying Mr Sharon's claim would anger the fervently pro-Israel Congress, which is currently debating whether to increase the annual $2.8bn (£1.9bn) subsidy to Israel.
There was no immediate US response to Mr Sharon's comments yesterday, but a diplomat watching the speech said that state department officials present turned "dour" when they heard them.
UN officials said the US had initially proposed a fact-finding mission principally as a means of heading off a security council resolution establishing a full investigative commission. But as opposition in the Israeli defence force became clear and the Israeli foreign minister, Shimon Peres, dropped his initial support, the US envoy to the UN, John Negroponte, distanced himself from the idea.
Kofi Annan, the UN secretary general, was left "holding the baby", a UN official said. "He read the writing on the wall and pulled the plug."
Another diplomat at the UN headquarters in New York agreed. "I don't think the US were out to get Sharon off the hook, but once it was clear he was not going to accept the mission, they may have tried to use it to get a package out of him."
Mr Sharon used his visit to Washington and his fifth meeting with Mr Bush to press for Mr Arafat's future exclusion from the peace process, arguing that he had supported terrorism.
The Israeli delegation arrived brandishing documents which it claims prove Mr Arafat's sponsorship of terrorist attacks.
Mr Sharon advocated a regional peace conference which he would attend, but not the Palestinian leader.
Mr Powell, meanwhile, is making plans for an international meeting of foreign ministers this summer, which would exclude Israeli and Palestinian leaders and therefore sidestep the personal animus between them.
Mr Bush and Mr Sharon were reported to have discussed the reconstruction of the Palestinian Authority in the wake of the Israeli offensive, but once again Mr Arafat's role was at the heart of the discussion.
The US accepts the Palestinian leader as indispensable to peace, but the Israeli prime minister has made it clear that he envisages a reconstructed authority without him.
"A responsible Palestinian Authority that can advance the cause of peace should not be dependent on the will of one man," he said.
The Israelis angered their American hosts by accusing Saudi Arabia of funding suicide bombers and the Islamist militant group Hamas, while the Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, was holding talks with the US administration, which has en thusiastically backed the regional peace proposal put forward by the Saudi leadership.
"We can't figure out what they're up to," the US press quoted a senior administration official as saying. "We need the Saudis right now. They need the Saudis right now. This doesn't make sense."
Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi ambassador to the US, called the allegations "totally baseless and false" and accused Israel of trying to distract attention from the peace process.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4409055,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 02:54 PM

So the wicked lies are still being pushed by your propaganda sites and gullible, hate filled dupes like you still lap them all up and pass them on as if true.

"Subsequent investigations and reports by the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Time Magazine, and the BBC all concluded there was no massacre of civilians, with estimated death tolls of 46–55 people among reports by the IDF, the Jenin office of the United Nations, and the Jenin Hospital.[79] A team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reporting to Fatah numbered total casualties of 56,[67] as disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank.
The UN report to the Secretary General noted "Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin. The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55."[4] While noting the number of civilian deaths might rise as rubble was cleared, the report continued, "nevertheless, the most recent estimates by UNRWA and ICRC show that the number of missing people is constantly declining as the IDF releases Palestinians from detention."[4] Human Rights Watch completed its report on Jenin in early May, stating "there was no massacre," but accusing the IDF of war crimes,[80] and Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre."[1] Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for."[81] A BBC report later noted, "Palestinian authorities made unsubstantiated claims of a wide-scale massacre,"[15] and a reporter for the Observer opined that what happened in Jenin was not a massacre.[82]"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 02:59 PM

Eye witness reports!

. One camp resident, Ali Ramile, a 40-year-old truck driver, said he watched Israeli soldiers kill seven or eight disarmed Palestinian fighters execution-style and dump several loads of bodies in a mass grave within 100 yards of his home...interviews with more than a dozen Palestinians from the Jenin camp indicated a heavy loss of civilian life there.

That is how reliable your all your "eye witnesses" are.

Pity your author is dead.
There is material for a few more of his books to get you all salivating.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 03:05 PM

"Subsequent investigations and reports by the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Time Magazine, and the BBC...."

That's an impressive lineup of impartial sources Keith.


http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine52.html
Independent History & Research Box 849, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho 83816
Michael Anthony Hoffman II
"Michael Anthony Hoffman II is an American Holocaust denier and conspiracy researcher/theorist." - Wikipedia

Jim, Jim, Jim.....good lord.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 03:47 PM

"Pity your author is dead."
As far as I know The Los Angeles Times is alive and Kicking
"Michael Anthony Hoffman II is an American Holocaust denier and conspiracy researcher/theorist."
I have no doubt you are right Bobad, but if you care to check, his quote was also a direct lift from the Los Angeles Times - perhaps you might like to join one of Keith's literacy classes? - On second thoughts, maybe not.

Press on.
Distract, delay, derail
Arab members of the UN Security Council, pressed to act by the exploding mass movements in their own streets, as a bloc proposed a resolution that called for sending a multinational force to defend the Palestinians from the Israeli onslaught throughout the occupied West Bank. They also proposed organizing an inquiry into Israeli occupation crimes in the West Bank. Clearly the resolution would be a major embarrassment unacceptable to the United States.
The U.S. government financially, militarily, politically and diplomatically supports Israel and its continuing attacks on the Palestinian people. That's because Washington considers Israel one of the best defenders of U.S. corporate interests in the region.
On April 4, the U.S. pushed through UN Security Council Resolution 1403, "welcoming the mission of the U.S. Secretary of State to the region as well as efforts by others... to bring about a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East."
Washington claimed it was brokering a deal to end the Israeli siege. U.S. Special Envoy General Anthony Zinni was in Israel during the entire Israeli offensive. Secretary of State Colin Powell was in Israel supposedly to discuss 'peace' as news coverage of Jenin reached world attention. Although both U.S. officials attended commemorations of Israeli casualties, neither made any attempt to go to Jenin. Israel could hardly have denied either of them the access it denied the UN.
Arab countries called on the Bush administration to intervene to restrain Israel. Washington did not want to be in the position of publicly vetoing an Arab resolution in the UN Security Council that called for strong UN action at a time of international outrage. So a backroom deal was made to avoid a U.S. veto, give the appearance of some movement and yet ensure that no significant action was authorized. The stronger Security Council resolution of the Arab Group was withdrawn and the U.S. crafted the watered-down Resolution 1405 that passed with unanimous support on April 19.
Israeli leaders initially claimed they welcomed the U.S.-worded resolution because their hands were "clean," they had acted in "self-defense." While Israel stalled, Secretary of State Colin Powell publicly backed up the Israeli claim that no massacre had taken place. On April 24, speaking before the U.S. Senate Appropriations Foreign Operations Subcommittee, Powell said, "clearly people died in Jenin... I've seen no evidence that would suggest a massacre took place."[6]
This became the official position. No investigation was needed because no massacre had taken place. While the outside world, even relief agencies, were barred from the camp the Israelis began a series of demands. They demanded further changes in the composition of the delegation for "balance," the addition of military personnel, and insisted that no interviews or interrogation of any Israeli troops could take place. Finally they decreed that the fact-finding team could reach no conclusions, nor call for any specific action. While these issues were debated, all members of the expanded fact-finding team were put on hold.
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan acquiesced to each new Israeli demand. Yet Israel still denied the UN team entry into the refugee camp. Israel could not have taken any of these actions without the full support of Washington.
Even UN members who had initially made very strong reports, such as UN Special Envoy Terje Roed-Larsen began to backtrack under heavy pressure.
I have been totally misrepresented in parts of the Israeli media, evidently quoting me wrongly, saying that I stated that there was a massacre in Jenin. I said nothing of the sort... There was a stench of decaying bodies there which was absolutely awful. But that does not imply that I said that there was a massacre there. These are horrors of war, and I cannot judge if there was a massacre or not. And this is why everybody should now be relieved that there will be a fact-finding mission which will find out what happened there. And after that we will all judge.[7]
Finally, on May 3, two weeks after the unanimous passage of the U.S.-drafted resolution, Kofi Annan officially disbanded the "fact-finding" team because Israel would not allow entry even after every Israeli demand had been accepted.
Tunisian representative to the UN Noureddine Mejdoub stated in a special Security Council session on May 3,
Let us imagine that an Arab state had committed an act many times less grave than those perpetrated by Israel. Immediately a coalition force would have been formed, the rule of law would have been invoked, the binding nature of council resolutions would have been reaffirmed and sanctions would have been imposed.[8]
The Bush administration, which scripted and then dropped its mild resolution on Jenin after just two weeks, is nevertheless still demanding full enforcement of sanctions resolutions imposed on Iraq – 12 years after Iraqi troops left Kuwait.
Yet even after the UN disbanded the fact-finding team and dropped any implementation of its resolution, the U.S. was faced with a political problem. It was beyond dispute that the Palestinian refugees in the densely populated cinder block housing in the center of Jenin had been attacked with tanks and missiles and their homes then bulldozed into rubble. And there was still the stench of the charge that Israeli troops had committed "massacres" in Jenin and in other camps. This is where another arm of U.S. policy comes in.

Enter Human Rights Watch
On the very day that the UN Secretary General moved to disband the fact-finding team, it was hardly treated as news. All the corporate media were conveniently running banner headlines stating that "no massacre" had taken place in Jenin. They gave as the objective authority for this finding the organization Human Rights Watch.
This let the IDF and the U.S. – which was author of the Security Council resolution and primary supporter of Israel – off the hook.
In fact, the Human Rights Watch report identifies 52 Palestinians killed during the Israeli operation and devotes 42 pages to describing a whole series of "possible" war crimes and violations of international law that the Israeli forces committed. But all this is buried in a report on their web site that few will ever see.
The story that CNN, BBC, AP, AFP, network TV, news magazines and all the other corporate media reported globally in bold headlines and sound bites was that a Human Rights Watch investigation had confirmed "No Jenin massacre." As CNN reported on May 3, "Human Rights Watch found no evidence that Israeli troops massacred Palestinian civilians in Jenin... said Peter Bouckaert, senior researcher for the group and a member of the investigative team." This was the news in a sound bite. It was reinforced in countless articles.
The news reports were based on an interview which Peter Bouckaert gave to the Washington Post on April 26, live from Jenin as he released the report. His words exactly echoed Colin Powell's statement the week before and Israel's position.
In the news coverage this sounded like it was the finding of an "official" inquiry, with no further investigation needed. This was not the first time HRW has stepped in to reinforce U.S. policy with a veneer of apparently unbiased non-governmental judgment.
Who is Human Rights Watch and how were they able to gain access to Jenin for an inquiry at the very time that Israel was denying entry to a delegation chosen by the UN Security Council?
Human Rights Watch was supposedly created to monitor "human rights abuses" worldwide. In reality, it is an institution that has acted at every turn to reinforce the policies of the United States and justify its "humanitarian interventions." It is composed almost entirely of U.S. citizens and its board includes multimillionaires, former U.S. government officials and mainstream academics.
Human Rights Watch began as Helsinki Watch in 1975. It was a powerful Cold War instrument against the Soviet Union and the socialist bloc countries of Eastern Europe. Its network became a web of support for pro-capitalist forces and political dissidents in every country.
Multibillionaire George Soros has played a major role in the development of Human Rights Watch and in linking it with his own personal NGO network, Open Society Institute. Aryeh Neier, the director first of Helsinki Watch and then Human Rights Watch moved on to head the Open Society Institute. Many other directors share positions and change titles within a small world of U.S.-based NGOs.
HRW's Middle East North Africa division has used its position to build support for the continuing U.S. war and sanctions against Iraq. According to the reports of four major UN agencies (WHO, FAO, UNICEF, WFP), UN Security Council sanctions, kept in place at U.S. insistence, have caused the deaths of over 1.5 million Iraqis. Withholding food and civilian supplies is a war crime. However, Human Rights Watch has proposed that to help weaken Saddam Hussein and "encourage Iraqi officials to overthrow him. Saddam Hussein be indicted by an international court for war crimes." (HRW press release, January 5, 2000). If the U.S. objective is an invasion of Iraq, Human Rights Watch is only too happy to oblige with reports and suggestions.
Human Rights Watch claims its reports are objective, balanced and evenhanded. When it comes to Palestine this has meant equating the violence of the illegal Israeli occupation with the resistance of Palestinians to overwhelming military force. Once Human Rights Watch declared that "no massacre" had occurred in Jenin, the demand for an inquiry and international action against Israeli crimes virtually disappeared. Media coverage shifted sharply. The Bush administration made a new round of demands on the Palestinians to condemn violence while calling Ariel Sharon "a man of peace" and expressing sympathy for Israeli "self-defense" measures. HRW statements echoed these shifts.
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0003220.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:01 PM

In any case it would look better on you to stay away from those sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:09 PM

There was no massacre at Jenin.
It was all lies.
All those eye witnesses were liars.
They made up the whole thing to discredit Israel, and it works.
Even after it has been exposed as a lie it is still passed around as truth by "fucking liars" like YOU JIM!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:53 PM

"It was all lies."
No Keith, It was all semantics - there was never a dispute over what happened, despite the fact that the Israelis refused to let either the UN or the world press into the site.
What is in dispute was whether it was a massacre - go and read the reports.
It was described as a war crime, but Israel's used to that.
The trouble with calling everything "lies is nobody believes you when you might have a point.
"fucking liars" like YOU JIM!"
The mask - the mask!!
"In any case it would look better on you to stay away from those sites."
Thanks for the heads-up Bobad - will take more care next time - much appreciated.
Sorry for the snappiness; must be the company I keep.
All gone - more tomorrow.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:58 PM

"Thanks for the heads-up Bobad - will take more care next time - much appreciated."

That's the most sensible thing I've heard from you in a long time Jim :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:04 PM

No Keith, It was all semantics - there was never a dispute over what happened,

Really Jim.
What about the fact that a whole load of "eye witnesses" were produced who lied and lied and lied to frame Israel for a massacre that never happened?
And you are part of that filthy lie.
As Joe so eloquently told you Jim, "you are a fucking liar."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:56 AM

Yeah, yeah, we know all that - you've said it before - interminably.
Must point out that Joe upset a number of good honest people with his somewhat bilious outburst and appears to have disappeared from the scene - I hope temporarily.
It would appear that your "whole load" included Israelis who were responsible for the destruction (not to mention the Americans who persuaded Civil Rights Watch that it was not a massacre) - but there you go....
Must press on - have a nice day
Jim Carroll

The Minority Report – The Palestinian Arab Minority in Israel, 2011
Principle author
Katie Hesketh
Additional authors
Suhad Bishara, Advocate
Rina Rosenberg, Esq.
Sawsan Zaher, Advocate

THE RIGHT TO DEMONSTRATE
The police routinely use force and arrest against Arab citizens of Israel as a deterrent against demonstrating, in order to silence voices of protest, instead of fulfilling the duty of the police to maintain order and ensure freedom of political expression, even in times of war and social, political and national upheaval, when the views of many Arab citizens differ substantially from those of the Jewish majority. Detained protestors are initially held in custody and often denied bail or release under The Criminal Procedure (Power of Enforcement, Detentions) Law (198). The reason usually cited by the authorities is that, if released, they could endanger state security or public safety, disrupt the investigation or influence witnesses. If the case proceeds to prosecution, suspects are generally charged under the Penal Code on charges such as taking part in a prohibited assembly (Article 151) or rioting (Article 152).
Adalah has received many complaints over the years from protestors who were beaten by police officers and then themselves charged with the crime of assaulting a police officer (Articles 273 and 274), and/or with interrupting police officers in the course of carrying out their duties (Article 275).
Case Study:
The October 2000 protest killings In October 2000, Israeli police officers killed 13 unarmed Palestinian citizens of Israel during demonstrations staged to protest against Israel's brutal policies In the OPT During the demonstrations, Israeli police used live ammunition, rubber-coated steel bullets and tear gas against the protestors. Many protestors who were killed were shot in the head or chest by snipers. As a result of the lethal force employed by the police to quash the demonstrations, hundreds of Arab citizens were also injured and more than 1,000 were arrested and detained. Contrary to the recommendations of the official Or Commission of Inquiry in 2003, in January 2008, the Attorney General decided to close the files and not to issue a single indictment against anyone responsible for the killings.-' Until today, ten years after the killings, no police officer, commander or political leader has heen held accountable for the deaths
http://www.scribd.com/doc/117503114/Inequality-Report-The-Palestinian-Arab-Minority-in-Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:39 AM

Subsequent investigations and reports by the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Time Magazine, and the BBC all concluded there was no massacre of civilians.

ALL the "eye witnesses" who claimed to have seen Israelis killing people were liars.
They made it all up to frame Israel for a non-existent crime

Liars like you try to keep the lie alive, regurgitating it and trying to pass it off as truth.
And you feel no shame for it.
Do you not grasp that it is wrong Jim?
"fucking liar"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:40 PM

"fucking liar"
I think you're beginning to turn me on every time you write this - reminds me of the old days.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:48 PM

Whoops - nearly forgot.
Jim Carroll

EMPLOYMENT
• Palestinian citizens of Israel often face discrimination in work opportunities, pay and conditions, both because of the inadequate implementation of equal-opportunity legislation and because of entrenched structural barriers, which particularly affect women, and include poor or non-existent public transportation, a lack of industrial zones, and a shortage of state-run daycare centers. Palestinian citizens are also excluded from the labor force by the use of the military-service criterion as a condition for acceptance for employment, often when there is no connection between the nature of the work and military experience.
• Unemployment rates remain significantly higher among Arab than among Jewish citizens, and the rate of labor-force participation among Palestinian women citizens of Israel, at just about 20%, is among the lowest in the world.
• Palestinian citizens of Israel in general, and women in particular, continue to be sorely underrepresented in the civil service, the largest employer in Israel (in total, Arabs constitute just around 6% of all civil service employees), despite affirmative-action legislation stipulating fair representation for the Arab minority and for women.
• The lack of development and investment in Arab towns and villages inside Israel and the unexploited or under-exploited human resources of the members of the Palestinian minority inhibit the growth of the Israeli
economy. The lost potential to Israel's economy has been estimated at around USS S billion per year by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).
(ibid)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 01:15 PM

You have no shame at all about promoting such a wicked salnder.

No country is faultless and above all criticism.
Why do yo constantly single out the Jewish State for criticicm?

ireland
"The results of this study suggest that accessing financial services and housing, along
with recruitment and the workplace, are areas that may require particular monitoring
for discriminatory practices. In relation to work, the response of the unemployed and
the economically inactive, non-Irish nationals and people with disabilities suggest that
these groups are particularly at risk. In relation to services, disabled people, non-Irish
nationals and minority ethnic groups reported greater likelihood of consistently
experiencing discrimination.
http://www.eapn.ie/eapn/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/experience-of-dicrimination-in-ireland-analysis-of-QNHS-equality-module-2008.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 01:48 PM

Lest we forget: 77% of Israeli Arabs say they would rather live in the State of Israel than anywhere else in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:04 PM

"The only free country in the whole of the Middle East and North Africa."

How do minorities like Christians, Jews or the wrong kind of Muslims fare in the other ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:05 PM

"You have no shame at all about promoting such a wicked salnder."
Please write this down, memorise it and swallow it.
You have spent this entire thread defending some of the worst atrocities on this planet by denying eye-witness accounts, official surveys, human rights organisations studies, victim and perpetrator statements.....
By ignoring or denying all these you have defended massacres, starvation of children, racist abuses, chemical warfare.....
How dare you whinge about my passing on accredited information on a massacre or near massacre (depending on who you believe, but certainly not an isolated incident).
Your behaviour here has been both contemptuous and contemptible, so expect to get similar treatment in return.
What happens in Ireland has nothing whatever to do with this discussion; the information I passed on from the Inequalities Report relates directly to your claim of fair and equal treatment of minorities in Israel and shows without much doubt that Israel is racially divided and far from equal.
While I'm quite happy at the thought that your present apoplectic seizure might bust a blood vessel, I suggest for your own sake that you take a pill or something.
Will dig out some more of the Inequality Report for your bedtime reading.
Wishing you all that you wish me; sleep well.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:21 PM

How dare you whinge about my passing on accredited information on a massacre or near massacre

I don't.
Only when you pass on fake information from lying eye witnesses about a massacre that never happened.
That makes you a "fucking liar."

I do not claim any country is perfect.
All including yours could improve their treatment of minorities.
On a scale, I do believe that Israel is among the best, and its neighbours among the worst.
The Freedom House judgement supports that view.
There is no rational basis for your constantly singling out the Jewish State for your attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:25 PM

There you go.
Jim Carroll

MAIN FINDINGS
THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK OF INEQUALITY
• Inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel span all fields of public life and have persisted over time. Direct and indirect discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel is ingrained in the legal system and in governmental practice.
• The right to equality and freedom from discrimination is not explicitly enshrined in Israeli law as a constitutional right, nor is it protected by statute. While Supreme Court justices have interpreted The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty as comprising the principle of equality, this fundamental right :s currently protected by Judicial interpretation alone.
• The definition of the State of Israel as a Jewish state makes inequality and discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel a reality and a political project. The pairing of "Jewish" and "democratic" both codifies discrimination against non-Jewish citizens and impedes the realization of full equality.
• Numerous groups of Palestinian citizens of Israel face "compound discrimination" or multiple forms of discrimination on the basis of both their national belonging as Arabs/Palestinians and their membership in one or more other distinct subgroups, such as women, the disabled and the elderly.
• More than 30 main laws discriminate, directly or indirectly, against Palestinian citizens of Israel, and the current government coalition has proposed a flood of new racist and discriminatory bills which are at various stages in the legislative process.

CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS
• Palestinian citizens of Israel are afforded differential and unequal treatment under Israeli law in the field of citizenship rights. The most important immigration and nationality laws-including the Law of Return (1950) and the Citizenship Law (1952)—privilege Jews and

JEWISH IMMIGRATION.
• If the spouse of a Palestinian citizen of Israel is a Palestinian resident of the OPT, it has been virtually impossible for him or her to gain residency or citizenship status in Israel since May 2002. This ban on family unification is totally disproportionate to the alleged security reasons cited by Israel to justify it; rather, it is motivated by the state's desire to maintain a Jewish demographic majority.
• A new law makes it possible to strip Israeli citizenship for various reasons related to alleged "disloyalty" to the state or "breach of trust", indirectly targeting the citizenship rights of Palestinian citizens. Several attempts to pass additional laws that grant the authority to revoke citizenship and impose further loyalty oaths are currently pending in the Knesset.

INCOME/POVERTY
• Arab families are greatly over-represented among Israel's poor: over half of Arab families in Israel are classified as poor, compared to an average poverty rate of one-fifth among all families in Israel. Arab towns and villages are heavily over-represented in the lowest socio-
economic rankings, and the unrecognized Arab Bedouin villages in the Naqab are the poorest communities in the state.
• Gaps in income and poverty rates are directly related to institutional discrimination against Arab citizens in Israel.

REDISTRIBUTION OF RESOURCES AND SOCIAL WELFARE
• Although the right to equality demands that states take positive steps to bridge the gaps between the various population groups, the State of Israel actively seeks to promote and direct resources to Jewish citizens as a privileged majority within the "Jewish State". In
many policy areas, including the designation of "National Priority Areas" and the use of the military-service criterion to allocate resources, the state actively preserves and perpetuates inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:07 PM

I do not claim any country is perfect.
Any, including yours, can be criticised for their treatment of minorities.
On a scale, I do believe that Israel is among the best, and its neighbours among the worst.
The Freedom House judgement supports that view.
There is no rational basis for your constantly singling out the Jewish State for your attacks except prejudice.
It marks you out as a BIGOT.
(as well as a "fucking liar")

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

""No country is faultless and above all criticism.
Why do yo constantly single out the Jewish State for criticicm?""

Why do you constantly single out the Jewish State as being above criticism, if you believe what you just said?

There is no single instance of you admitting that Israel has ever done anything wrong, which may account for your refusal ever to discuss the West Bank settlements, which the (according to you biased) UN has ruled illegal and which, nevertheless, continue to increase.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:43 PM

The UN has also ruled that the indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel constitutes a war crime, which makes it illegal, yet they nevertheless persist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:46 PM

It is a lie to say I "constantly single out the Jewish State as being above criticism."

I say again, no country is.
That includes Israel.
It has faults and I have condemned them here many times.

It is very far from being the worst in the world.
It has to deal with situations no other nation faces, yet it is still among the best in the world while its surrounding enemies are among the worst.

No other nation has its faults paraded on Mudcat on thread after thread.
Why do you feel the need to do that to just one state?
The Jewish one.

It is hard not to conclude prejudice, and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM

"I do not claim any country is perfect."
Yes you do Keith - you have defended every atrocity committed by Israel that has been mentioned on any of these threads - you have neither qualified nor produced evidence other than Israeli denials You have even admitted this.
"Why do you feel the need to do that to just one state?"
Israel is the subject of this thread, nowhere else.
"The Jewish one."
There you go again linking Israeli crimes to being "Jewish" - this thread is about Israeli behaviour - nobody but you and your merry band have in any way attempted to implicate "Jews"; to do so is deeply Antisemitic.
Your arguments might be understandable if you showed the slightest concern at the treatment of Jews, but your defence of British fascism by describing it as "harmless" shows that you don't give a toss - see: 20 Feb 13 - 01:03 PM and 20 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM

"It is very far from being the worst in the world."
So what, Israel is the subject of this thread, not the US, not Turkey, not Pinochet's Chile, not former Yugoslavia, or Haiti.... or any other nation which abuses human rights?
As shown by the Inequality Report, Israel is constitutionally an unequal state that oppresses ethnic minorities, massacres civilians and attempts to move whole communities about like chess pieces to fulfil a racist agenda.
Anyway - must rush - 'The Inequality Report' beckons.   
Jim Carroll
PS BTW I'm still very much enjoying your "fucking liar", but do you think you might make it a little stronger and perhaps add a bit of variation - it's becoming a little repetitive - and it isn't even your own invention, Joe was there first.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:33 AM

you have defended every atrocity committed by Israel that has been mentioned on any of these threads - you have neither qualified nor produced evidence other than Israeli denials

That is another of your lies Jim.
I have never defended any atrocity by anyone.
As if anyone would.

"Qualified"? Yes.
29/7 2010
"The massacres were truly deplorable. Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them. They were disgraced by it.

I do not deny attacks on civilians but Israel does and the evidence is not there. Both sides do lie."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

Your point well made - you have defended Israel's proven part in the massacre by claiming they only "failed to stop it" when in fact they played an active part in it.
On the other hand, you have defended forcibly moving Bedouins onto a poisonous site - an atrocity and described so as the UN.
You have defended the eviction of whole communities to make room for Jewish settlers - a racist crime - an atrocity.
You have attempted to pass of Jenin as "That never happened, it was a lie to discredit Israel," (08 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM") - it may or may not be a massacre, but it certainly happened and the number of civilians killed and homes destroyed, and the fact that it was a refugee camp make it an atrocity.
You have claimed that the Israeli's played no part in Sabra/Shatila and described the slaughtered refugees as "their enemies" in order to justify providing illumination for the massacre - an active part in an atrocity which you defended.
You have defended the deliberate bombing of occupied apartment blocks because resistance fighters might be hiding there - an atrocity.
Your continuous silence on the use of toxic and noxious sprays in order to back up your claim that the Bedouins are treated well in Israel is a defence of atrocities.
Your silence on the destruction of hospitals, schools and homes is defending atrocities.
Want any more - plenty to choose from?
Jim Carroll

ECONOMIC ASSETS: LAND
"• In continuation of a pattern that was established with the founding of the state in 1948, Palestinian citizens of Israel continue to be deprived of access and use of the land under long-standing and more recent land laws and policies. Furthermore, new measures —including a new land reform law from 2009 and an amendment to the Land Ordinance from February 2010 —
aim at confirming state ownership of land confiscated from Palestinians in perpetuity and blocking Palestinian restitution claims.
• Admissions committees operate in around 700 agricultural and community towns and filter out Arab applicants, on the basis of their "social unsuitability", from future residency in these towns. The operation of admissions committees contributes to the institutionalization of racially-segregated towns and villages throughout the state and perpetuates unequal access to the land.
• The Jewish National Fund (JNF) —a body with quasi-state authority that operates solely for the interests of the Jewish people and controls 13% of the land in the state —continues to wield decisive influence over land policy in Israel, having been allocated six of a total of 13 members of the newly-established Land Authority Council.
• Arab towns and villages in Israel suffer from severe overcrowding, with Arab municipalities exercising jurisdiction over only 2.5% of the total area of the state. Since 1948, the State of Israel has established approximately 600 Jewish municipalities, whereas no new Arab village, town or city has ever been built.
• While the Arab Bedouin population in the Naqab stands at around 170,000 persons, or 14% of the total population in the Naqab, the combined areas of the government-planned and newly-recognized Arab Bedouin towns and villages in the Naqab account for just 0.9% of the land in the district.
• Israel is currently intensifying its efforts to forcibly evacuate the unrecognized villages in the Naqab (referred to as "illegal clusters"), including by demolishing entire villages, as recently witnessed in the repeated demolition of the village of Al-Araqib. In pursuing this policy, the state has rejected the option of affording recognition to these villages, many of which predate the establishment of Israel. Between 75,000 and 90,000 Arab Bedouin live in the unrecognized villages in the Naqab, whom the state characterizes as "trespassers on state land".
Inequality Report

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM

Jim,

And your comments about the ARAB Palestinian Homeland of Jordan?

Care to mention the FACT that Jews are prohibited from owning ANY property there, in spite of it being 77% of the Mandate Palestine designated as a Jewish Homeland by treaties ending WW I?

Or is it OK to prohibit Jews, but not limet Moslums?

Care to talk about my Palestinian friends who were driven out of Ramallah in 1948 BECAUSE THEY WERE CHRISTIANS?

O the greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab nations (820,000) than Palestinian Muslims (640,000) that have never been compensated by the Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:37 AM

""yet it is still among the best in the world while its surrounding enemies are among the worst.""

It is still among the best in world at just two things. Annexing territory which belongs to those surrounding enemies, and trading on its perennial "victim" status in a cynical attempt to win the sympathy vote.

There are those who see through that. You don't,....or won't.

As for having criticised Israel, you haven't!

Oh sure, your "they aren't the worst", or "they're still among the best" do nothing more than pay lip service to the fact that they are not perfect.

In no specific instance during this discussion have you failed to leap into a frantic denial based purely on the denials of the Israel propaganda ministry.

You have not accepted a single item of evidence presented to you,in spite of the vanishingly small possibility that everybody who told of Israeli crimes could be part of your imagined world wide conspiracy against Israel.

You even categorise B'Tselem, Israeli Human Rights organisations and Israeli soldiers as anti Israel liars, not to mention Bedouins living under Israeli rule, and any other Arab who dares speak out.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:02 AM

Don.
It is still among the best in world at just two things. Annexing territory which belongs to those surrounding enemies

It can't be that good or it would not still be so ridiculously tiny!

leap into a frantic denial based purely on the denials of the Israel propaganda ministry.

No denials from me, frantic or otherwise.
I just ask for the evidence before I will believe.
I remind you that it is not just me who does not believe.
None of the liberal democracies would be on friendly termes with a nation they believed to be guilty of apartheid, or crimes against humanity, or civilian massacres.
It is just a few hate filled prejudiced fanatics who need no evidence and will believe anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:05 AM

"And your comments about the ARAB Palestinian Homeland of Jordan?"
And your point - isn't Jordan one of Britain's strongest allies in the area and what the **** has any of this got to do with Keith's claim of equal rights for all living in Israel?
Don't know anybody here who has supported Jordan - do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:08 AM

Jim.
Your whole post is utter bollocks as usual, and far to much bollocks to deal with it all yet again.

Just this.
the fact that it was a refugee camp make it an atrocity.

Yes the PLO fighters were guilty of a war crime when they used the camp as a military position.
There was no massacre of civilians even though many lied that they had seen such a thing.
Motive, to harm Israel
Liars like you still peddle those lies for the same reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:12 AM

""I just ask for the evidence before I will believe.
I remind you that it is not just me who does not believe.""

We've covered this crap a dozen times.

You ask for it, it's given to you, you reject it out of hand.

If God told you it as true, you would call him a bigot.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM

There is no unequivocal evidence.
Plenty of "eye witnesses" after the event, but we know that Israel haters lie for political gain.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:22 AM

"Your whole post is utter bollocks as usual, and far to much bollocks to deal with it all yet again."
So of course you are not going to deal with it.... didn't think for one moment that you would, so well just have to remain in the dark as to why it is "utter bollocks"
In the light of Israel's record of slaughtering refugees and other civilians, the PLO were within their rights to attempt to protect the most vulnerable from Israeli terror. I'm certainly not happy with them being there and have never defended that fact, but even if you are right that makes the killing of civilians by the Israelis the slaughter of hostages, nothing else.
Bruce
Can I remind you that, just as you have failed to explain how self-defence can possibly mean killing civilians or the age of an atrocity makes it irrelevant - you have yet to tell us why pointing out oppressive behaviour by one state excuses similar behaviour by another - and I don't suppose you ever shall
"Liars" - repetitive again - can you manage something a little more turn-onable
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:47 AM

Whoops - two signatures
Won't bother signing this to make up for that

HEALTH
• Arab citizens of Israel can expect to live shorter lives than Jewish citizens (about four years less) and face significantly higher mortality rates, particularly after the age of 60. The rate of infant mortality among
Palestinian citizens is approximately double that among Jewish citizens, and higher still among the Arab Bedouin population in the Naqab (Negev), where it reaches more than 15 per 1,000 live births.
• While Israeli law provides that equitable, high-quality health services should be provided to all residents of Israel, various barriers —including the lack of clinics and hospitals in Arab towns and villages and limitations
on mobility —mean that Palestinian citizens are frequently unable to exercise their right to the highest sustainable standard of health.
• The health situation is most critical in the unrecognized Arab Bedouin villages in the Naqab, where health services are either limited or non-existent. The inadequate provision of health services in the unrecognized villages is a deliberate policy of neglect on the part of the state, which is seeking to evacuate them and relocate their residents, in part by creating intolerable conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:01 AM

So of course you are not going to deal with it.... didn't think for one moment that you would, so well just have to remain in the dark as to why it is "utter bollocks"

I don't do long posts because no-one ever reads them, so if you want me to respond to a point, do not bury it in a vast heap of lurid accusations all of which I have already rebutted anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:00 AM

""I don't do long posts because no-one ever reads them, so if you want me to respond to a point, do not bury it in a vast heap of lurid accusations all of which I have already rebutted anyway.""

No you haven't. You don't actually know the meaning of rebuttal.

Saying ""That's not true"", ""That's a lie,"" or ""Israel denies that"", is not a rebuttal.

You have to offer convincing (not unequivocal) evidence, which we have repeatedly done and you have not.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:05 AM

If you had unequivocal evidence of the lurid accusations you make against Israel, not just me but the world would believe them.
If!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:07 AM

or convincing evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:28 AM

Denial is not rebuttal - you have now been given a load of information on the conditions which are forced on ethnic minorities in Israel which you are totally ignoring and, as Don pointed out you have done so throughout this thread - once again you are lying
"the world would believe them."
The informed world does - it is only the US and its hangers-on which have constantly defended them - which you have already agreed is a fact
Haven't got one eighth the way through the Inequality Report yet - more to come, as I'm sure, you're pleased to hear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:32 AM

The informed world does - it is only the US and its hangers on

Like Ireland?
Would your country be on such warm friendly terms with a state guilty of apartheid, crimes against humanity and civilian massacres?
Of course not.
It is all bollocks and only you bigots inside your bubble of hatred believe all that stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:10 PM

"It is all bollocks and only you bigots inside your bubble of hatred believe all that stuff.
I DON'T THINK I have ever encountered such a level of blind racist hatred and disregard for human life, and support for persecution, war crimes and atrocities as I have from you.
I am appalled that the forum supervisors have allowed you to use this site as a platform for your truly toxic views for as long as they have.
Your cowardice in avoiding all the facts that have been put up for you without even attempting to dispute them says everything that needs to be said about you and your persistent public lying shows you appear not to have a shred of self respect
You said once you were a Christian and a teacher - god help us all - especially the kids you might have influenced
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM

Keith
I was meaning to mention this earlier, but now you seem to have abandoned all pretence of argument and resorted to calling us all bigots and naive moronic racists, I'll do so here if I have your full attention.
Several times, here and elsewhere, you have snidily suggested that I might come from somewhere other than England "Jim, both our countries restrict the freedom of nomadic people"
You even referred to me as "an outsider" on one thread.
You do this in an attempt to undermine what I have to say; it a racist attitude which implies that foreigners have no right to offer an opinion, or that their word is to be trusted less than that of a WASP.
To clarify once more - for the last time I hope.
I was born in England, I carry a British Passport and am a fully fledged British citizen.
My parents were born in Britain, my father in Scotland, my mother in Liverpool; my grandparents, - all four of them, were born in Liverpool and as far as I know their parents were.
I moved to Ireland a dozen years ago to top-and-tail thirty years research work we did on Irish songs and singers and to see if there was anything more to be gathered.
Any Irish connections my family may once have had goes back to the Famine.
You appear to want to instigate a race purity test on contributors to this forum, as well as using it to promote your vomit-provoking views - don't do it again.
I trust this will be the last time I need to mention this nasty little tactic of yours.
Jim Carroll

Speaking of which:
Case Study: The Zubeidat family—"socially unsuitable" to live in Rakefet
Ms. Fatina and Mr. Ahmed Zubeidat are a married Arab couple. They graduated from the College of Architecture at the Bezalel Academy of Arts and Design in Jerusalem with distinction, and they are both pursuing careers as architects. After marrying in 2006, the couple applied to live in the community town of Rakefet, located in Misgav
in northern Israel. The Zubeidals were looking for a small town wilh a high level of services in which to raise their future children. An admissions committee operates in Misgav, which required the couple to take an acceptance test. The committee included a representative from the Jewish Agency. Following an interview with the couple, the committee rejected their application on the humiliating grounds of their "social unsuitability". After being approached by the Zubeidats, Adalah filed a petition on their behalf to the Supreme Court in September 2007
demanding the cancellation of admissions committees.Adalah argued that the actions of these committees contradict the right of citizens to choose their place of residence. Adalah further argued that the criterion
of "social suitability" is arbitrary and open to wide interpretation. In October 2007, the court issued an injunction ordering Rakefet to set aside plot of land for the Zubeidat family pending a final decision on the petition. The petition remains pending.
Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:15 PM

I remembered all that about you.
You and I are ethnically identical so you can hardly accuse me of racism towards you, silly.
When I say "your country" that is just shorthand for "your adopted country."
I am amazed I had to spell that out as if it was an issue!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:35 PM

No it wasn't Keith - you referred to me as "an outsider"; a deliberate attempt to demean what I said - you've done it on many occasions.
As I said "You do this in an attempt to undermine what I have to say; it a racist attitude which implies that foreigners have no right to offer an opinion, or that their word is to be trusted less than that of a WASP."
It is a racist, dishonest and cowardly cowardly tactic that has no place in open debate.
Why should it have any relevence to any debate - don't do it again.
Stop lying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:48 PM

I do not remember referring to you as an outsider, unless it was when you were trying to tell us who live here what signs are common here.

All this is just another utterly pathetic attempt to demonize me because your ludicrous claims do not stand up and are believed by no-one except a bunch of bigots within a bubble of hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:22 AM

You make unreasonable demands for "unequivocal" evidence from any critics of Israel, but accept Israel's protestations of innocence without any evidence at all.

Even juries only have to judge "beyond reasonable doubt". You set yourself above legal standards accepted throughout the civilised world.

You are BIASED!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:46 AM

Equivocal evidence is "open to two or more interpretations and often intended to mislead; ambiguous."
Of course I will not accept that.

but accept Israel's protestations of innocence without any evidence at all.

AGAIN, I do not accept any such thing.
I just say, if something is denied, it must be shown to be true.
Unequivocally.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:38 PM

B'Tselem, Israeli Human Rights organisations and numerous Israeli soldiers deny Israel's protestations of fairness and innocence.

You call them liars.

Where is your unequivocal evidence that they are lying.

Sauce for the goose mate!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:56 PM

Yet you do not offer a shred of evidence to back up your own claims, "unequivocal" or otherwise.
Isn't that a bit er…. "biased" or does that mean we can reject everything you claim – if not, why not?
Jim Carroll

CASE STUDY:
The attempted evacuation of the unrecognized village of Atir-Umm al-Hieran On 30Julv 2009, the Beer el-Sabe Magistrates' Court ordered the eviction of a number of residents from their homes in the unrecognized village of Atir - Umm al-Hieran in the Xaqab. The order is the latest in a series of eviction proceedings aimed at uprooting the village in preparation for the establishment of a new town named "Hiran," planned exclusively for Jewish residents. The land designated for Hiran includes the land on which Atir - Umm al-Hieran is located. A report by the Israel Land Administration (ILA) identifies the Arab Bedouin inhabitants of the area as a "special problem" that may affect the establishment of Hiran.137 Atir - Umm al-Hieran was established by order issued by the Israeli military governor in 1948, after the military forces had forcefully evicted
its residents from their homes and land in Wadi Zuballa. The tribe was prevented from returning to live or work on the land. This transfer was not the first time that the villagers were evicted from their homes: they were displaced in 1948 to Hirbat al-Hanzail and then to Kokheh and Abu Kaff. In 1956, the villagers were displaced for the third time to Wadi Atir, where they live today, having received assurances from the military governor that they would be permitted to remain on the land permanently. The people established the village and built permanent brick and cement homes, and worked to rebuild their familial and social lives, which had been disrupted by each expu Ision. Today, 150 families made up of around 1,000 people live in the village, all members of theAbu al-Qia'an tribe. Adalah has been defending residents of Umm al-Hieran against attempts to expel and dispossess them since 2004. On 21 October 2009, Adalah submitted an appeal against the Beer el-Sabe Magistrates' Court to the Beer el-Sabe District Court.135 In the appeal, Adalah demanded the cancellation of the eviction orders and a halt to the evacuation of the entire village.139

Another tool that the State of Israel has begun to employ for the purpose of "Judaizing" the land in the Naqab and "protecting state lands" is the establishment of what are known as "individual settlements." These settlements are inhabited, in general, by single Jewish families, which are provided with hundreds and sometimes thousands of dunams of land for their exclusive use. There are around 60 individual settlements in the Naqab, stretching over 81.000 dunams of land.14-' The government's "Wine Path Plan" seeks to establish individual settlements by retroactively legalizing these existing settlements and allowing for the construction of a number of new ones, thereby distributing vast and lucrative portions of land in the Naqab exclusively to Jewish citizens.1'1 This policy prevents equal access to the land for the entire population of the Naqab. On 30 March 2006, Adalah submitted a petition to the Supreme Court demanding the cancellation of the "Wine Path Plan".1'2 The court ruled on 15 June 2010 to uphold the planning authorities' decision to establish individual settlements, finding that the decision to approve the plan fell within planning policies and that the court had no authority to intervene. The court did not address the petitioners' arguments concerning the disparate impact of the plan, and specifically the unequal distribution of land and the discrimination against the Arab Bedouin unrecognized villages entailed by the plan. Meanwhile, on 12 July 2010, the Knesset approved a new law to legalize individual settlements retroactively, including those that lie outside the Wine Path Plan.143
Following its recent review of Israel, the UN Human Rights Committee recommended that Israel "respect the Bedouin population's right to their ancestral land and their traditional livelihood based on agriculture."144
(ibid)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:18 PM

But I have not made claims Jim.

YOU make lurid claims that the whole world knows are not true.
I just ask for a reason why you expect anyone to believe them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 05:59 PM

B'Tselem, Israeli Human Rights organisations and numerous Israeli soldiers deny Israel's protestations of fairness and innocence.

You call them liars.

Fairness Don.
States can only aspire to it.
Those who criticises Israel for insufficiency of fairness are free to do so, but as Bobad reminds us, most Israeli Arabs find Israel a good place or even the best place to be, and Freedom House identified it as "the only free country in the Middle East and North Africa"!

Innocence Don.
Israel does not claim to be innocent of any mistake or misjudgement.
It does deny the lurid crimes you accuse it of, and the above to not support you except a number of soldiers unrepresentative enough to be highly suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:12 AM

"But I have not made claims Jim."
Your whole case is made up of unqualified claims
"I just ask for a reason why you expect anyone to believe them."
Because they are researched and documented facts – reason enough for you? Obviously not.
If you don't accept this you have been given ample opportunity to disprove them – you haven't even tried to, instead you have just denied them without offering any proof. Your refusal to link your statements underlines the fact that most of them are no more than your own inventions and your promise to respond to requests for clarification then refusing to do so when challenged underlines your open dishonesty.
Your claim that nobody believes them is an open insult to all who have opposed you here, that is just about everbody.
You may have had the support of a couple of people on some minor points, but your obnoxious support for massacres (by pretending that Israel played no part in them), or the poisoning or proposed poisoning of ethnic communities (by either claiming that they hadn't happened, or by totally ignoring them) is your alone - if this is not true, show what support you have been given on your major claims – Sabra/Shatila, Bedouins, chemical warfare.....
As for "the whole world..." if Israeli atrocities aren't accepted universally, why have the US found it necessary to bail them out with a veto each time (you've already agreed that they have).
You have been given solid, researched and documented evidence which you have either denied without evidence or totally ignored.
You seem to have adopted the meglomanic stance that your denying evidence out-of-hand constitutes some sort of proof.
That evidence stands as undisputed fact, by you or anybody – even Israel hasn't responded to the Inequality Report which confirms the Israeli State and indisputably "Apartheid" .
I fully realise that you are not reading what is being put up – you haven't responded to the vast majority of them; fine, I didn't think for a moment you would.
However, I will continue to put them up for general reading and will do so for as long as you drag this thread out.
I am grateful to you for giving me the opportunity to do so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:54 AM

Your claim that nobody believes them is an open insult to all who have opposed you here, that is just about everbody.

A few Mudcat Lefties plus Don is not "everybody" Jim.
You really are in a bubble of illusion.
Consider the EU, including your current state of residence.
They imposed sanctions on Syria early on when it was guilty of far less than you accuse Israel of.

Why no sanctions?
Why such friendly relations?

Likewise Scandinavian states.
Likewise any liberal democracy.
NOBODY believes your lurid accusations except, as I said, a bunch of bigots in a bubble of hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:33 AM

""the only free country in the Middle East and North Africa"!""

Not if you are an Israeli Bedouin, or other Arab citizen, apparently:-

Oh yes! I apologise for making you read one of Jim's posts, but if you don't, you won't know what I'm talking about, so how about reading it this time?

""The attempted evacuation of the unrecognized village of Atir-Umm al-Hieran On 30 Julv 2009, the Beer el-Sabe Magistrates' Court ordered the eviction of a number of residents from their homes in the unrecognized village of Atir - Umm al-Hieran in the Xaqab.

The order is the latest in a series of eviction proceedings aimed at uprooting the village in preparation for the establishment of a new town named "Hiran," planned exclusively for Jewish residents.

The land designated for Hiran includes the land on which Atir - Umm al-Hieran is located.

A report by the Israel Land Administration (ILA) identifies the Arab Bedouin inhabitants of the area as a "special problem" that may affect the establishment of Hiran. Atir - Umm al-Hieran was established by order issued by the Israeli military governor in 1948, after the military forces had forcefully evicted its residents from their homes and land in Wadi Zuballa.

The tribe was prevented from returning to live or work on the land.

This transfer was not the first time that the villagers were evicted from their homes: they were displaced in 1948 to Hirbat al-Hanzail and then to Kokheh and Abu Kaff.

In 1956, the villagers were displaced for the third time to Wadi Atir, where they live today, having received assurances from the military governor that they would be permitted to remain on the land permanently.

The people established the village and built permanent brick and cement homes, and worked to rebuild their familial and social lives, which had been disrupted by each expulsion. Today, 150 families made up of around 1,000 people live in the village, all members of the Abu al-Qia'an tribe.

Adalah has been defending residents of Umm al-Hieran against attempts to expel and dispossess them since 2004.

On 21 October 2009, Adalah submitted an appeal against the Beer el-Sabe Magistrates' Court to the Beer el-Sabe District Court. In the appeal, Adalah demanded the cancellation of the eviction orders and a halt to the evacuation of the entire village.""

Explain to me Keith, if you wouldn't mind, how this fourth eviction after a promise of permanent residence is fair.

Is this what you have repeatedly described as ""they can't just be allowed to settle wherever they like""

Seems to me they'll only be allowed to finally settle once they've evntually been pushed across the border.

That takes care of the real fairness of a "Fair Israel".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:35 AM

Australia for instance.
No friend of countries guilty of apartheid or massacres.


Australia and Israel share a close relationship with significant people-to-people and commercial links. Australia established diplomatic relations with Israel in 1949. The Australian Embassy in Tel Aviv, and the Israeli Embassy in Canberra, were both opened in 1949.

Political overview

The State of Israel is a robust parliamentary democracy. The Knesset (parliament) is made up of 120 members elected every four years on the basis of proportional representation. The Prime Minister is a member of the Knesset, although Ministers need not be. The President is the Head of State, a largely ceremonial role, and is elected by a secret Knesset vote for a single seven-year term.

The current Israeli Government is led by Prime Minister Netanyahu. Netanyahu's Likud party heads a coalition of parties (Yesh Atid, Jewish Home and Hatnuah) after the January 2013 elections.

Bilateral relationship

Australia has warm and close relations with Israel, which are supported strongly by Australia's active Jewish community. The relationship has a strong historical dimension, dating back to the First World War when Australian forces fought in the region, including in modern-day Israel, alongside their Allied Counterparts against the Ottomans. Australia was the first country to vote in favour of the 1947 UN partition resolution.

Australia and Israel have a healthy commercial relationship with two-way trade worth $907 million (2011-2012). Our major merchandise export to Israel is coal ($56 million) followed by live animal trading ($54 million) and pearls and gems ($15 million – all figures 2011-2012). There are opportunities for Australian companies to take greater advantage of Israel's knowledge-based technologically advanced economy – particularly in areas of biotechnology, ICT, education and training. Investment is also growing. We encourage Israeli companies to view Australia as a regional base and as a supplier of sophisticated goods and services.

Updated March 2013

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:41 AM

""Israel does not claim to be innocent of any mistake or misjudgement.

It does deny the lurid crimes you accuse it of, and the above to not support you except a number of soldiers unrepresentative enough to be highly suspect.""

Not good enough!

Show your unequivocal evidence for claiming those Israelis lied, or at the very least give a credible explanation of exactly what they have to gain by blowing the whistle on the massacres.

You set the standards for us. Now let's see you live up to them.

I'm betting you can't, and will simply continue to waffle.

If I'm right your credibility is gone!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:08 PM

"A few Mudcat Lefties plus Don is not "everybody" Jim."
It's certainly everybody on this thread.
You have no idea what my political views are – my arguments on this subject are based entirely on my humanitarian beliefs – if this makes them "Leftie" than it is to the left's credit that they are humanitarians – and I would rather be described as being of the left than a rabid right..
"when it was guilty of far less than you accuse Israel of."
I see very little difference between the crimes of Syria (who you proposed to sell riot equipment to) and Israel.
"Why no sanctions? Why such friendly relations?"
For the same reason Britain hosted an arms fair to sell to some of the most human rights states (and described as such by you) when the Arab Spring protests were underway, or why they sold sniper rifle ammunition to Syria (identified as such by you) which was possibly used on the citizens of Homs….. or why they sold havy artillery ammunition to Colonel Gadaffi which was used on the protestors, or trained his son to take over if he left office and all the other horrific trading partnerships the west accommodates – pragmatism.
As that nice Mr Cable said "we sometimes trade arms with states with questionable human rights records" ( or words to that effect) That's business
Israel has only avoided being tried as war criminals because of the support given to them by US vetoes – you've acknowledged how many that have used in their support.
"NOBODY believes your lurid accusations"
Then they've stayed remarkable silent on this thread
And as for your "robust parliamentary democracy" – see below from The Inequality report – sponsored by that well known leftie organisation Christian Aid – which shows beyond doubt that Israel is an Apartheid state capable of extreme oppressive behaviour towards ethnic minorities
Jim Carroll

THE CRIMINALIZATION OF POLITICAL ACTIVITY
• The criminal justice system is regularly used as a means of delegitimizing political acts and expression by Palestinian citizens. Along with ordinary citizens and political activists, Arab political leaders have been indicted
for activities and speech critical of state policy that falls within the scope of their work as elected political representatives.234 Recent cases include the following:
• In November 2009, the Attorney General indicted Arab MK Mohammed Barakeh, the leader of the Democratic Front for Peace and Equality (al-Jabha/Hadash) in relation to four separate incidents that occurred at demonstrations over the course of the previous three years. The demonstrations in question were peaceful protests against the Israeli Separation Wall being constructed in the West Bank, the Second Lebanon War of 2006, and the lack of accountability for the October 2000 killings.
Mr. Barakeh's participation in these demonstrations fell within his role as an MK and political leader of the Arab minority in Israel. MK Barakeh, who has attended hundreds of demonstrations at which he mediated between protesters and the police, took a leading role in mediating with the police or the military on behalf of protestors and in some instances was attacked by the police and the military. Police officers later submitted false complaints against him for assault, which form the basis of the charges against him. The evidence on which the indictment is based has been completely refuted by MK Barakeh and is insufficient to convict him; the indictment simply seeks to criminalize his legitimate political activities as an MK and undermine the political participation of the Arab minority in Israel as a whole.-32
• The Knesset House Committee voted to strip the parliamentary immunity of Arab MK Sa'id Naffaa of the Tajammoa/Balad political part}' (National Democratic Assembly) on 26 January 2010. The move paved the way
for the Attorney General to indict him criminally for various political offenses surrounding a visit he made to Syria in September 2007 as part of a delegation of Druze making a pilgrimage to Druze holy sites in Syria,
considered an " enemy state" under Israeli law. MK Naffaa arranged for a group of 2S0 Druze religious clerics to make a pilgrimage to holy sites in Syria after they were repeatedly refused a permit by the Interior Minister.
MK Naffaa argues that the clerics were unfairly and arbitrarily denied their religious freedom. He is also accused of contact with a foreign agent.
According to one of his assistants, who was interrogated by the GSS, MK Naffaa discussed the feud between Fatah and Hamas with Talal Naji, a Syrian leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and
attempted to meet with Hamas leader Khaled Meshal in Damascus. MK Naffaa denies meeting either man. MK Naffaa maintains that his visit was entirely political in nature and that the Knesset's actions seek to prevent
him from fulfilling his role as anMK.23* Adalah has learned that MK Naffaa
has been indicted.23'
• The first case in which an indictment was filed against an MK for political speech was that of former MKDr. Azmi Bishara, then head of theNDA-Balad part}'. Dr. Bishara was charged under The Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance (1948) with two counts of allegedly "supporting a terrorist organization," namely Hezbollah. In two speeches, Dr. Bishara analyzed the factors that led to the end of the Israeli occupation of South Lebanon and spoke about the realities of the Israeli occupation of the OPT and the right to resist it. He was also charged under The Emergency Regulations (Foreign Travel) (1948) for organizing a series of visits for elderly Palestinian citizens of Israel who wished to travel to Syria to visit refugee relatives. The indictments followed a vote to strip MK Bishara of his parliamentary immunity, which protected him from indictment, by the Knesset in November 2001, a move
hitherto unprecedented in Israeli politics. Adalah represented MK Bishara in the criminal indictments filed against him. The Magistrates' Court in Natzerat Illit decided unanimously to dismiss the criminal charges against him for the Syria visits case in April 2003. In November 2003, however, the Nazareth Magistrates' Court decided not to dismiss the indictments for political speech. In February 2006, following a petition filed by Adalah, 233
the Supreme Court unanimously ruled the decision to remove Dr. Bishara's immunity illegal and dismissed all charges against him for his political speeches.
• In addition to these indictments, on 7 June 2010 the Knesset House Committee voted to revoke the parliamentary privileges of MK Haneen Zoabi (NDA-Balad). The decision was approved by the Knesset plenum later in July 2010. MK Zoabi participated in the Gaza Freedom Hotilla and was a passenger on the Mavi Marmara. As MK Zoabi enjoys parliamentary immunity, she was not detained, but she was subjected to an extensive interrogation. Her description of the attacks contradicts the Israeli government's official version of the events,23" and she has called for an international, independent inquiry into the attacks. As a result, MK Zoabi has lost her diplomatic passport, any privileges in overseas travel enjoyed by MKs, and the right to have the Knesset cover her legal fees should her immunity be revoked for the purposes of criminal prosecution. The vote followed several stormy sessions in the Knesset during which MK Zoabi was branded a "terrorist" and "traitor" by fellow parliamentarians
and subjected to racist and sexist remarks and physical threats.240 Various Israeli ministers and MKs have called for the revocation of her Knesset membership, for her to be criminally prosecuted, and even for her Israeli citizenship to be revoked, as proposed bv the Interior Minister, Eli Yishai.241*42

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:23 PM

"It's certainly everybody on this thread.
"

Nope.


"As Joe so eloquently told you Jim, "you are a fucking liar.""



"However, I will continue to put them up for general reading and will do so for as long as you drag this thread out.
"

That is certainly your right- as is the right of others to point out you have made claims without support, and ignored the statements that "Israel bears responsibility as the occupying power, but is not directly responsible for " the massacres you keep bringing up

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:41 PM

"That is certainly your right- as is the right of others to point out you have made claims without support, and ignored the statements that "Israel bears responsibility as the occupying power, but is not directly responsible for " the massacres you keep bringing up"
As Keith rightly said, "denial is nothing without evidence (or words to that effect
Can you provide evidence to show that Israel did not provide illumination to allow the killing to go on through three nights, arm the killers, provide the transport, having been informed on the first day of the killing refused to intervene while at the same time demanding that any weapons possessed by the refugees should be handed over, actually turn back into the hands of the killers refugees attempting to escape, stood by and watched the massacre take place, bury the 'evidence' with their clearly marked bulldozers ....
Then having been found fully culpable by an independent enquiry they elected the man found to be in charge as prime minister - a war criminal as the head of State.
All these facts are documented - if you have any quibble with any of them, produce evidence to the contrary - Keith refuses to do so.
BTW Keith, you failed to link your Australian quote (as usual) and neglected to say it was from The Australian Department of Trade and Industry - as I said - pragmatism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:53 PM

Jim, that statement is official. It is linked to from their embassy website.

All that stuff you accuse them of at Sabra they readily admit because it was about a legitimate military operation, except " bury the 'evidence' with their clearly marked bulldozers ..."

That is just another lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:13 PM

Jim,

"Can you provide evidence to show that Israel did not provide illumination to allow the killing...
"
They provided illumination: YOU are stating it was to allow killing- Please provide some factual basis. Why could it not have been providing light to allow the refugees to move around and get away from the LEBANESE who where attacking them?


"refused to intervene while at the same time demanding that any weapons possessed by the refugees should be handed over,

IF they were refugees, they had no right to weapons: If they were Palestinian resistance who had weapons, they were in combat and either disarmed or were targets.


" actually turn back into the hands of the killers refugees attempting to escape, "

They turned them back, but can you show that they knew it was to be killed? What percentage of those in the camp were killed, and how does that compare with other inter -Arab fighting, such as between Hamas and the PA?



"stood by and watched the massacre take place,

How could they have seen what was going on IN the camp when they remained outside?



"bury the 'evidence' with their clearly marked bulldozers ...."

They gave the use of ONE bulldozer to the militia to help it remove the Palestinian fighters from the camp.



"Then having been found fully culpable by an independent enquiry .."

As culpable AS THE OCCUPYING POWER. The Militia was determined to have committed the acts, and I see NO comment from you about their subsequent inclusion in the Lebanese government. If you can't be bothered to criticise them, how do you justify attacking Israe for it, unless you hold Jews to a different standard than you hold Christians? BOTH peoples are racially related to each other, and native to the region.


"they elected the man found to be in charge as prime minister - a war criminal as the head of State."

As opposed to the Palestinians who selected their war criminals as a government? Yet you have shown support for that. Must be because he was Jewish, and the Palestinian war criminals were not...

"All these facts are documented - if you have any quibble with any of them, produce evidence to the contrary - Keith refuses to do so."


See above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM

As I thought, no response from our resident anti Arab apologist for Israel.

No suggestion of any basis for his claims that witnesses lied!

Of course not!

He always gets very shy when challenged to apply, to himslf, the same standards on which he insist for us.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:55 PM

""They provided illumination: YOU are stating it was to allow killing- Please provide some factual basis. Why could it not have been providing light to allow the refugees to move around and get away from the LEBANESE who where attacking them?""

OH PUHLEASE! Make up your mind. If they didn't know about the killing why would they need to do that?

You get more off the plot with every post.

""They turned them back, but can you show that they knew it was to be killed? What percentage of those in the camp were killed, and how does that compare with other inter -Arab fighting, such as between Hamas and the PA?""

What did you just suggest as a reason for lighting up the sky?

The percentage is irrelevant and so are comparisons. IT WAS A MASSACRE!   DUH?

"stood by and watched the massacre take place,

""How could they have seen what was going on IN the camp when they remained outside?""

Well, they lit the whole scene lke a football stadium, so whether it was for your reason, or ours, they must have known that the Lebanese were going berserk. What did they think the Phalangists were doing, playing chess?

"""bury the 'evidence' with their clearly marked bulldozers ...."

They gave the use of ONE bulldozer to the militia to help it remove the Palestinian fighters from the camp.""

But they didn't find Palestinian fighters, who had already left. But the people they DID find weren't removed by that dozer. They are still there, under the stadium hastily erected to conceal their mass grave.

You asked what proportion died! Easy answer, ask the bulldozer driver.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:13 PM

"They provided illumination: YOU are stating it was to allow killing"
No - the witnesses stated that it did provide illumination for three nights of killing - eye witnesses, the only independent enquiry and the most comprehensive book on the massacre.
If you have any evidence to counter this, please provide it. If you dispute official reports and surveys it is your job to provide evidence to the contrary
Even by Israeli law, they were guilty of a war crime - see above.
"IF they were refugees, they had no right to weapons"
No weapons whatever weapons were found and at that stage of the massacre when the Israelis were demanding them they would have been disarming massacre victims so that they could not defend themselves - this was their intention.
"They turned them back, but can you show that they knew it was to be killed?"
All reports, including the only independent enquiry, says that they were made aware of what was happening withoin hours of the start of the massacre - see above.
"hey gave the use of ONE bulldozer to the militia"
That is the claim of the Israeli inquiry into itself - eye witness reports, including the two nurses, claim they saw bodies being bulldozed into the ground; this was also included in the only independent report.
"As culpable AS THE OCCUPYING POWER."
Nope - actually part of the massacre, even naming Begin as the main culprit
"As opposed to the Palestinians who selected their war criminals as a government?"
Even if there were true it is irrelevant - war crimes are not excusable because others carry them out - start a thread on PALESTINE
"See above."
Like you, Keith has refused to supply links or provide documented evidence to his claims - see above (the entire thread)
You bottled out of becoming involved in this part of the discussion once before NOW YOU ARE BEHAVING JUST LIKE KEITH AND MAKING UNLINKED AND UNQUALIFIED CLAIMS - TWO OF A KIND, AS THEY SAY IN CARDS - WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE FOR ALL THIS?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:45 PM

eye witness reports, including the two nurses, claim they saw bodies being bulldozed into the ground;
That was a lie the first few times Jim.
Now it is a FUCKING LIE.
The nurses saw NO SUCH THING.
Last time you told that LIE you said you would be happy to provide the reference, and I challenged you on it.
STILL WAITING.

Flares.
You do not need flares to massacre civilians.
It would have happened anyway.
Siegel describes watching the flares.
She said each was followed by "light artillery" shots.
She said it was otherwise silent.No firing.
" No screams. No cries for help."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:54 PM

Don.
But they didn't find Palestinian fighters, who had already left.

There were reports of fighting. Exchanges of fire.
If there were none, they were still expected.
NYT states that IDF came under fire AFTER the PLO were supposed to have withdrawn.
The Phalange were sent in by IDF to clear the camps of fighters.

Re your demands for unequivocal evidence.
He who makes outrageous accusations should provide the unequivocal evidence, not demand it of someone asking why to believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:18 PM

No-one believes tese ludicrous accusations except te bigots in teir bubble.
No decent country would have warm and close relations wit a state tat massacred civilians.
Not Irlend.
Not Austtralia.
Not Denmark.

"Relations between Denmark and Israel are good and widespread, which means that the Embassy is met with friendship, interest and openness in the Israeli society. This in turn gives us the best possible platform for carrying out our mission in a professional way.

We work to strengthen the already good relations between Denmark and Israel – be it in the sphere of business, culture or climate change and environment.

We keep the Danish Government and Danish institutions updated on the political situation in Israel and the region.


I have been told that during then foreign minister Poul Hartling´s visit to Israel in 1970 he stopped an 8 year old boy in the streets of Haifa asking him what he knew about Denmark. The boy answered: "You have [Hans Christian] Andersen and you saved the Danish Jews during the war."

This was back in the seventies. Hans Christian Andersen speaks for himself. The rescue operation of the Danish Jews in October 1943 is still commemorated in Israel, in Denmark and elsewhere. Within just a few days more than 7.000 Jews were illegally sailed to safety in Sweden.

In the new millennium Danish – Israeli relations are much more than Hans Christian Andersen and the rescue of the Danish Jews. There is no getting round innovation when it comes to increasing competitive power and growth. Denmark can learn from Israel as a start-up nation, which means that the cooperation between Denmark and Israel is flourishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM

By tehe way Bruce - you have been given links to the most comprehensive study of the massacre
"SABRA & CHATILA - INQUIRY INTO A MASSACRE by Amnon Kapeliouk"
He was a Jewish citizen of Jerusalem, an acedamic; his work is annotated throughout and his sources are impeccable
Keeith dismisses the little bit he has read as "unreliable" (without explanation, of course) and has refused to read all of it because it is "too long"
It is corroborated by Robert Fisk's two major articles and also my the eyewitness testimonies of nurse, Ellen Siegel and Dr Ang Swee Chai.
Keith vaccilates between Seigal seeing nothing and the next minute "she was on top of the hospital building and taking long walks, viewing it all"
His most disgusting rejection of eyewitness evidence was that of traumatised Israeli soldiers who were there - he describes them as "unreliable".
"There were reports of fighting. Exchanges of fire."
There were no such reports - produce them if there were - otherwise you are lying again
"You do not need flares to massacre civilians"
Bloody nonsense - there was no street lighting Witnesses, including Ellen Seigal described it as being "as light as day"
"The Phalange were sent in by IDF to clear the camps of fighters."
The fighters had left long ago - none were found, there was no armed reesistance - the Israeli commandants were fully aware of this and if they hadn't been it was straightforward mass murder to send in a fanatical religious sect whose leader had recently been assassinated into a camp of unarmed refugees - this even contravened the Israeli constitution which makes it an act of murder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:51 PM

The whole world knows what Israel did in their assaults on the Palestinian people. To say otherwise is to show insanity on this issue. Despite the evidence clearly shown by Jim Carroll and others on this thread, there are those hard-nosed individuals who would perpetrate the bloody Israeli propaganda and thereby contribute to no solution to the peace process between Israel and the Palestinian people.


"He who makes outrageous accusations should provide the unequivocal evidence, not demand it of someone asking why to believe it."

He who denies unequivocal evidence when shown to him has a strong bias against such credible evidence and if shown to him wouldn't make any difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:23 PM

Keith vaccilates between Seigal seeing nothing and the next minute "she was on top of the hospital building and taking long walks, viewing it all"
You lie again.
You put in quotes what I never said.
Do you deny she reported what she saw that night from the top of the hospital?
Answer please.

His most disgusting rejection of eyewitness evidence was that of traumatised Israeli soldiers who were there - he describes them as "unreliable".
Why did they not come forward, like many of their comrades, until long after the events and the enquiries?

There were no such reports - produce them if there were - otherwise you are lying again
The militia took casualties.
Siegel reports sounds of fighting.
If there were none, they were thought to be present.

Bloody nonsense - there was no street lighting Witnesses, including Ellen Seigal described it as being "as light as day"
You do not need flares or street lights to kill indiscriminately in a crowded camp.
Siegel said it was silent under the flares, except for "light artillery."
Deny that Jim?

The fighters had left long ago - none were found, there was no armed reesistance
Evidence Jim?
I have given you mine.
Anyway, they were thought to be there if they were not.

Your ludicrous, lurid accusations are believed by no-one outside your bunch of bigots in your bubble of lies.
Ireland, Australia and Denmark and every other decent nation would have no truck, never mind close and warm relations with a state guilty of such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:52 AM

No free, informed nation believes those lurid, ludicrous lies.

"Today, the relations between Finland and Israel cover practically all walks of life, from diplomacy and trade to cultural and scientific co-operation and tourism. Finland's membership in the European Union (since 1995) has added an important dimension to the Finnish-Israeli relations. In addition to official contacts, numerous non-governmental organisations and individuals play a role in enhancing ties between Finns and Israelis. Annually, some 10,000 Finns visit Israel, with Jerusalem being the favourite destination. "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM

Your claims waver from – the medical staff did not know the massacre was going on to - they could see everything but did not see Israeli soldiers there, to how could they see anything from an enclosed hospital – to they had an excellent view of the camp from the roof of the hospital – to they never left the hospital to – they took long walks – flexible evidence to suit all occasions, don't you think.
A small selection.
"She was in the hospital throughout the massacres, and was unaware of them."
07 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM
"She herself had seen no signs of the civilian massacre from the top of her hospital deep within the camp, or during her long walk out."
08 Mar 13 - 04:08 AM
"The "eye witness doctor" did not even see anything of the massacres. She was with Siegel in the hospital."
"07 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM
And as I came out of the hospital I saw groups of women and men and children all rounded up by soldiers and while I was passing them one woman tried to give me her baby"
14 Mar 13 - 03:39 AM
"Why did they not come forward,"
A They where traumatised by what they witnessed; fully covered in the story of the making of the film Waltz with Bashir, based on the experiences of one of those soldiers
My father was a prisoner of war in Spain - I found out last year that he was taken out regularly and placed in front of a mock firing squad then taken back to his cell. He never spoke about the war in Spain until five years after his release - he didn't talk to anybody for a year after he returned home.
His brother my uncle, was one of the soldiers who entered a Nazi concentration camp at the end of the war - he never spoke of it to anybody; he'd written down some of his experiences in a notebook which was found after his death
That's what happens in wartime.
B Some of the soldier witnesses said that they had seen their mates disciplined for speaking up; several of them were dismissed from the army - a disincentive to telling what had happened until it was long behind them.
Others, of course, felt a duty to their country but, being human beings, could only live with what happened for so long - that came out in their testimonies which you have been given, read them.
"The militia took casualties."
Where are the reports – you are just telling us what happened, as you have throughout this thread – EVIDENCE.
"Siegel reports sounds of fighting."
You have told us Seigal didn't even know the massacre was taking place – make up your ******* mind.
"Bloody nonsense - there was no street lighting "
DO NOT BE STUPID – MASSACRE IN THE PITCH DARK – THEY'D BE SLAUGHTERING EACH OTHER.
If they needed light to, as you so revealingly put it "seek out their enemies" they certainly needed it to slaughter their victims – UTTER NONSENSE.
"I have given you mine."
No you haven't – you have just told us, without evidence – what you claim happened – you have had our evidence several times – READ IT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:01 AM


DO NOT BE STUPID – MASSACRE IN THE PITCH DARK – THEY'D BE SLAUGHTERING EACH OTHER.

Unless, who knows, they had torches and vehicle lights, or maybe even waited until it was daylight anyway.

Of all my actual statements you quote, do you challenge a single one Jim?

Every one stands up and can be substantiated, unlike your shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:04 AM

"Siegel reports sounds of fighting."
You have told us Seigal didn't even know the massacre was taking place – make up your ******* mind.

"fighting"
"massacre"
Not the same Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:17 AM

""He who makes outrageous accusations should provide the unequivocal evidence, not demand it of someone asking why to believe it.""

Like the outrageous accusation that everyone who criticises or exposes any Israeli crime, as in the case of Sabra/Shatila, of commission or omission, is a liar, a bigot, an antisemite, or all three?

When might we expect you to live up to the standards you demand of the rest of humanity?

When might we expect Israel to do the same?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:33 AM

""Why did they not come forward, like many of their comrades, until long after the events and the enquiries?""

You are either incredibly naive, or incredibly dim and I can't quite decide which.

If you are a soldier, blowing the whistle on your superiors is the road to a life of absolute hell, so of course they waited till they were out of the IDF to come forward. They also had families and pensions to protect.

You, mister, would have done exactly the same thing.

The fact that they did come forward after waiting so long, and express their horror, shows just how traumatic those events were, and an arrogant shit with an agenda calls them liars out of hand.

That says a lot more about you than about them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:52 AM

"Not the same Jim."
Do not be stupid - there was no "fighting" going on - it was a massacre of unarmed people.
"Of all my actual statements you quote, do you challenge a single one Jim?"
I have consistently pointed out and am doing so again - your statements do not make any sense - they cancel each other out
Your stupidity about carrying our massacres in the dark is beyond belief - seeking out victims, butchering them, raping women and cutting their throats with torches in their hands - are you out of your mind?
"Unless, who knows, they had torches and vehicle lights, or maybe even waited until it was daylight anyway"
This, as you indicate "who knows?" is pure invention on your part,
There is something particularly revolting revolting about trying to implicate 3,500 massacre victims in terrorism by suggesting that they had arms to offer armed resistance.
There is something utterly stupid at suggesting that you have offered proof that there was armed resistance when all you have said is
"There were reports of fighting. Exchanges of fire.
If there were none, they were still expected.
NYT states that IDF came under fire AFTER the PLO were supposed to have withdrawn.
The Phalange were sent in by IDF to clear the camps of fighters."
Total 'making-it-up-on-the-spot claims in the face of dozens of documented reports to the contrary.
No evidence, no links, just unqualified statements by the perpetrators of the massacre - meglomania at its most extreme.
You really are out of your mind - and real sicko in the bargain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:56 AM

Don, lots of soldiers testified at the time.
Virtually everyone has to serve so you get fruitloop and rabid politicos ex-soldiers.
Only a tiny number have claimed bad things and not until long after.

everyone who criticises or exposes any Israeli crime, as in the case of Sabra/Shatila, of commission or omission, is a liar, a bigot, an antisemite, or all three?

We KNOW that there is an industry out there making up lies about Israel.
Those people who "SAW" the Jenin massacre WERE liars because it never happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM

"making up lies about Israel."
"Also on this Friday, eyewitness reports confirmed for the first time that trucks filled with civilians had been seen heading for unknown destinations. A Danish television cameraman, M. Petersen, actually filmed the militiamen loading men, women and children aboard such trucks on the edge of Shatila. This was taking place only 400 meters from an Israeli position. Residents of the Lebanese villages of Shweifat and Hadath, south of Beirut, confirmed that at noon on Friday, three large trucks and two smaller vehicles loaded with civilians passed through their area. These people were never seen again. Similarly, survivors reported to the Red Cross in Beirut that members of their families had been loaded on trucks and taken to unknown destinations, never to return."
Amnon Kapeliouk

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:38 AM

Israeli ignorance of the massacre
Jim Carroll

"Officers at the command post which overlooked the camps began receiving reports about developments inside the camps from the assailants themselves immediately after their entry into Sabra and Shatila. An hour after the Phalangists entered the camps, an Israeli officer stationed on the roof of the command post overheard a Phalangist officer radio his commander, also stationed on the roof, informing him that:

there were 50 women and children, and what should he do. The reply of Elie Hobeika [commander of the Phalangist forces operating inside the camps] over the radio was: 'This is the last time you're going to ask me a question like that, you know exactly what to do.' Then raucous laughter broke out among the Phalangist personnel on the roof. (Final Report, p.24).

A little later, the Israeli Division Intelligence Officer heard a Phalangist liaison officer tell one of his men inside the camps to "Do the will of God" to 45 people held by the Phalangists (Final Report p. 22). Then, two hours after the beginning of the massacre, the Phalangist liaison officer at the Israeli command post stated in the dining room that:

As a result of the Phalangists' operations up to that time [8:00 P.M., Thursday, September 16, 1982], 300 terrorists and civilians had been killed in the camps. (Final Report, p. 24)."
Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM

"making up lies about Israel."
"Every one stands up and can be substantiated, unlike your shit."
No free, informed nation believes those lurid, ludicrous lies."
You are the only one here to have consistently failed or refused to give and evidence - you make up 'facts', you don't link your claims, you reuse to respond when you are requested to back up your statements, you contradict yourself to support your particular line, you have provided no factual basis whatever for YOUR statements.
You have been given the opportunity to substantiate your support for Israel - you haven't and you make it quite clear you have no intention whatever of doing so.
You are still on your own here - even your mate has done another runner when asked to back up his statements.
"Your ludicrous, lurid accusations are believed by no-one outside your bunch of bigots in your bubble of lies."
It is difficult to get an overall figure of how many times the US has supported Israel with its veto.
Up to 1992 the US had used its veto 32 times in support of Israel; between 2001 and 2011 it used another 11 times.
This is a list of those between 1972 and 2011 from the pro Israeli 'Jewish Virtual Library'
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
Jim Carroll

"U.S. Middle East Policy
U.S. Vetoes of U.N. Resolutions on Behalf of Israel
By Donald Neff
Former Time Magazine Bureau Chief, Israel
This updated version was published in Fifty Years of Israel
Originally printed in Washington Report, September ⁄ October 1993

Donald Neff has been a journalist for forty years. He spent 16 years in service for Time Magazine and is a regular contributor to Middle East International and the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs. He has written five excellent books on the Middle East.
On March 17, 1970, the United States cast its first veto in the United Nations Security Council during the presidency of Richard Nixon, when Henry Kissinger was the national security adviser. It was a historic moment, since up to that time Washington had been able to score heavy propaganda points because of the Soviet Union's profligate use of its veto.

The first U.S. veto in history was a gesture of support for Britain, which was under Security Council pressure to end the white minority government in southern Rhodesia.
Two years later, however, on Sept. 10, 1972, the United States employed its veto for the second time—to shield Israel.1 That veto, as it turned out, signalled the start of a cynical policy to use the U.S. veto repeatedly to shield Israel from international criticism, censure and sanctions.
Washington used its veto 32 times to shield Israel from critical draft resolutions between 1972 and 1997. This constituted nearly half of the total of 69 U.S. vetoes cast since the founding of the U.N. The Soviet Union cast 115 vetoes during the same period.2
The initial 1972 veto to protect Israel was cast by George Bush [Sr.] in his capacity as U.S. ambassador to the world body. Ironically, it was Bush as president who temporarily stopped the use of the veto to shield Israel 18 years later. The last such veto was cast on May 31, 1990, it was thought, killing a resolution approved by all 14 other council members to send a U.N. mission to study Israeli abuses of Palestinians in the occupied territories. Then President Bill Clinton came along and cast three more.
The rationale for casting the first veto to protect Israel was explained by Bush at the time as a new policy to combat terrorists. The draft resolution had condemned Israel's heavy air attacks against Lebanon and Syria, starting Sept. 6, the day after 11 Israeli athletes were killed at the 1972 Munich Olympic Games in an abortive Palestinian attempt to seize them as hostages to trade for Palestinians in Israeli prisons.3 Between 200 and 500 Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians, mostly civilians, were killed in the Israeli raids.4
Nonetheless, Bush complained that the resolution had failed to condemn terrorist attacks against Israel, adding: "We are implementing a new policy that is much broader than that of the question of Israel and the Jews. What is involved is the problem of terrorism, a matter that goes right to the heart of our civilized life."5
Unfortunately, this "policy" proved to be only a rationale for protecting Israel from censure for violating a broad range of international laws. This became very clear when the next U.S. veto was cast a year later, on July 26, 1973. It had nothing to do with terrorism. The draft resolution affirmed the rights of the Palestinians and established provisions for Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories as embodied in previous General Assembly resolutions.6 Nonetheless, Washington killed this international effort to end Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands.
Washington used the veto four more times in 1975-76 while Henry Kissinger was secretary of state. One of these vetoes arguably may have involved terrorism, since the draft condemned Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians in response to attacks on Israel. But the three other vetoes had nothing at all to do with terrorism.
One, in fact, struck down a draft resolution that reflected U.S. policy against Israel's alteration of the status of Jerusalem and establishment of Jewish settlements in occupied territory. Only two days earlier, U.S. Ambassador William W. Scranton had given a speech in the United Nations calling Israeli settlements illegal and rejecting Israel's claim to all of Jerusalem.7 Yet on March 25, 1976, the U.S. vetoed a resolution reflecting Scranton's positions which had been passed unanimously by the other 14 members of the council.8
The two other vetoes during Kissinger's reign also were cast in 1976. One, on Jan. 26, killed a draft resolution calling for recognition of the right of self-determination for Palestinians. The other, on June 29, called for affirmation of the "inalienable rights" of the Palestinians.9
The Carter administration cast only one veto. But it had nothing to do with terrorism. It came on April 30, 1980, killing a draft that endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people.10
The all-time abuser of the veto was the administration of Ronald Reagan, the most pro-Israel presidency in U.S. history, with the most pro-Israel secretary of state, George Shultz, since Kissinger. The Reagan team cynically invoked the veto 18 times to protect Israel. A record six of these vetoes were cast in 1982 alone. Nine of the Reagan vetoes resulted directly from Security Council attempts to condemn Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon, and Israel's refusal to surrender the territory in southern Lebanon which it still occupies today. The other nine vetoes shielded Israel from council criticism for such illicit acts as the Feb. 4, 1986, skyjacking of a Libyan plane.11
Israeli warplanes forced the executive jet to land in Israel, allegedly in an effort to capture Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal. He was not aboard and, after interrogation, the passengers were allowed to leave.12 The U.S. delegate explained that this act of piracy was excusable "because we believe that the ability to take such action in carefully defined and limited circumstances is an aspect of the inherent right of self-defense recognized in the U.N. Charter."13
Other vetoes employed on Israel's exclusive behalf included the Jan. 20, 1982 killing of a demand that Israel withdraw from the Golan Heights it had occupied in 196714; the April 20, 1982 condemnation of an Israeli soldier who shot 11 Muslim worshippers at the Haram Al-Sharif in the Old City of Jerusalem15; the Feb. 1, 1988 call for Israel to stop violating Palestinian human rights in the occupied territories, abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention and formalize a leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations16; the April 15, 1988 resolution requesting that Israel permit the return of expelled Palestinians, condemning Israel's shooting of civilians, calling on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention and calling for a peace settlement under U.N. auspices.17
The Bush [Sr.] administration used the veto four times to protect Israel: on Feb. 17, 1989, to kill a draft strongly deploring Israel's repression of the Palestinian uprising and calling on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians18; on June 9, 1989, deploring Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians19; on Nov. 7, 1989, demanding Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and calling on Israel to allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel's suppression tactics against the Palestinian uprising20; and, finally, on May 31, 1990, calling for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands.21
The May 31, 1990 veto was the last, presumably, as the result of a secret understanding, if not an official agreement, with Russia and the three other Security Council members with veto power. By then it had become obvious that the council could not be effective in a post-Cold War world if Britain, China, France, Russia and the United States recklessly invoked their vetoes.
Moreover, the international alliances sought by Washington to repel Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in August, 1990 made it necessary for the Bush administration to retain unity in the Security Council. As a result, instead of abstaining on or vetoing resolutions critical of Israel, as it did in 1989 and the first half of 1990, the Bush administration abruptly joined other members in late 1990, 1991 and 1992 in passing six resolutions deploring or strongly condemning Israel's conduct against the Palestinians.22
These resolutions brought the total passed by the council against Israel since its birth to 68. If the United States had not invoked its veto, the record against Israel would total 100 resolutions condemning or otherwise criticizing its behavior or supporting the rights of Palestinians.
The agreement on vetoes held until March, 1995, when President Clinton invoked the veto after all 14 other members approved a U.N. Security Council resolution calling on Israel to rescind a decision to expropriate 130 acres of land in Arab East Jerusalem.23 The Clinton administration exercised two more vetoes in 1997, both of them on resolutions otherwise unanimously supported by the 14 other Security Council members. The draft resolution was critical of Israel's plans to establish a new settlement at Har Homa ⁄ Jabal Abu Ghneim in East Jerusalem in the midst of Palestinian housing.24
The three Clinton vetoes brought to 32 the number Washington has cast to protect Israel."
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM

Same old shit Jim.
You say I have not substantiated statements, but you can not actually identify one. I keep asking you to.

I do not "support Israel".I just ask you to justify your ludicrous claims that the whole world know are lies.

There were fighters in the camp.
Siegel herself states that fact.
She says there were few, not none.

Had there been none, it would still have been reasonable to go in and check.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:02 AM

"even your mate has done another runner when asked to back up his statements."
.,,.
I suspect you mean me here, Jim. I have made no statements, except that I take most of your points on board and am much grieved ~~ which, for some reason I have never quite fathomed, is never enough for you as you persist in impugning my sincerity in the matter. Perhaps you suspect my motivations; as you know, there are reasons I have mentioned before that I suspect your attitudes to this question to be somewhat dubiously motivated; but I do not propose to expound on that any further. I have pretty well opted out of the thread because, as I have said before, I find this entire situation all too painful. Is that what you call doing a runner? Last time I said this you agreed to get, and stay, off my back IIRC; but the temptation for a bit of snidery seems to have too much for you to resist.

I keep up with the thread nevertheless. Not sure why. A bit of Mallory on Everest, I suppose: "Because it's there."

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:06 AM

Your list of vetoes.
All the motions were proposed by nasty Islamic Republics and vicious little dictatorships who outnumber the decent democracies, NONE of whom supported all those ludicrous accusations.

All just lies and shit and that is all you are pushing.
Who believes it?
Not Ireland, or Denmark, or any EU state, or Australia, or Finland, Canada.....

None believe your ludicrous lurid lies

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM

... to have ‸been‸ too much for you to resist...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

No I didn't Mike – "don't be so sensitive" as you rightfully say you've kept your head down and chosen to act as a character witness for this abomination – god knows why.
You really should explain to your ward that responding to facts with nonsense like "All the motions were proposed by nasty Islamic Republics" really is underlining his idiocy, but hey – who am I to tell somebody else how to bring their kids up?
I was referring to 'One step forward, two steps back' Bruce who reminds me of the old Billy Connolly joke –"if you want to confuse a policeman, ask him a question".
G' luck
Jim Carroll

From Robert Fisk – one of the first reporters on the scene after the massacre:
September 15, 1982 – Sharon orders shelling of refugee camps and with Israel support, Lebanese Christian militia enter camps and begin slaughter
As soon as the peacekeeping force was withdrawn, the then Israeli Defence Minister Ariel Sharon moved to root out some "2,000 terrorists" he claimed were still hiding in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila. After totally surrounding the refugee camps with tanks and soldiers, Sharon ordered the shelling of the camps and the bombardment continued throughout the afternoon and into the evening of 15 September leaving the "mopping-up" of the camps to the Lebanese right-wing Christian militia, known as the Phalangists. The next day, the Phalangists – armed and trained by the Israeli army – entered the camps and proceeded to massacre the unarmed civilians while Israel's General Yaron and his men watched the entire operations. More grotesquely, the Israeli army ensured there was no lull in the 36 hours of killings and illuminated the area with flares at night and tightened their cordon around the camps to make sure that no civilian could escape the terror that had been unleashed.
Israel's Kahan Commission of Inquiry "not intended for people who have a prejudice in favour of truth and honesty", including US Congress
Although Israel's Kahan Commission of Inquiry did not find any Israeli directly responsible, it did find that Sharon bore "personal responsibility" for "not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre" before sending the Phalangists into the camps. It, therefore, lamely recommended that the Israeli prime minister consider removing him from office. [14] Sharon resigned but remained as Minister without portfolio and joined two parliamentary commissions on defence and Lebanese affairs. There is no doubt, as Chomsky points out "that the inquiry was not intended for people who have a prejudice in favour of truth and honesty", but it certainly gained support for Israel in the US Congress and among the public. [15]
Although International Commission found Israel directly responsible, no one was prosecuted
Monday, December 3, 2007
Broken U.N. Resolutions
Here's a list of U.N. Resolutions issued against, or ignored by, Israel. At the end are some of the human rights, issued by the Geneva Convention, that Israel has also violated.
All of this infomation was compiled by Jews Against the Occupation, and is available on their website.

Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.
General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948
"Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."

Israel's occupation of Palestine is Illegal.
Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967
Calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied in the war that year and "the acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

Israel's settlements in Palestine are Illegal.
Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979
"Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East."

Palestinian have the right to Self-Determination.
General Assembly Resolution 3236, November 22, 1974
Affirms "the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine...to self-determination without external interference" and "to national independence and sovereignty."

Reaffirmation of a Palestinian State
Security Council Resolution 1397, March 12, 2002
Affirms "a vision of a region where two states, Israel and Palestine, live side by side within secure and recognized borders."

More UN Resolutions on Israel, 1955-1992
Resolution 106: condemns Israel for Gaza raid.
Resolution 111: condemns Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people.
Resolution 127: recommends Israel suspend its no-man's zone' in Jerusalem.
Resolution 162: urges Israel to comply with UN decisions.
Resolution 171: determines flagrant violations by Israel in its attack on Syria.
Resolution 228: censures Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control.
Resolution 237: urges Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees.
Resolution 248: condemns Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan.
Resolution 250: calls on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem.
Resolution 251: deeply deplores Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250.
Resolution 252: declares invalid Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital.
Resolution 256: condemns Israeli raids on Jordan as flagrant violation.
Resolution 259: deplores Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation.
Resolution 262: condemns Israel for attack on Beirut airport.
Resolution 265: condemns Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan.
Resolution 267: censures Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem.
Resolution 270: condemns Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon.
Resolution 271: condemns Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem.
Resolution 279: demands withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon.
Resolution 280: condemns Israeli's attacks against Lebanon.
Resolution 285: demands immediate Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon.
Resolution 298: deplores Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem.
Resolution 313: demands that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon.
Resolution 316: condemns Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon.
Resolution 317: deplores Israel's refusal to release.
Resolution 332: condemns Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon.
Resolution 337: condemns Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty.
Resolution 347: condemns Israeli attacks on Lebanon.
Resolution 425: calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.
Resolution 427: calls on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
Resolution 444: deplores Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces.
Resolution 446: determines that Israeli settlements are a serious obstruction to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
Resolution 450: calls on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon.
Resolution 452: calls on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories.
Resolution 465: deplores Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist its settlements program.
Resolution 467: strongly deplores Israel's military intervention in Lebanon.
Resolution 468: calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return.
Resolution 469: strongly deplores Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians.
Resolution 471: expresses deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Resolution 476: reiterates that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are null and void.
Resolution 478: censures (Israel) in the strongest terms for its claim to Jerusalem in its Basic Law.
Resolution 484: declares it imperative that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors.
Resolution 487: strongly condemns Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility.
Resolution 497: decides that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights
is null and void and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith.
Resolution 498: calls on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.
Resolution 501: calls on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops.
Resolution 509: demands that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon.
Resolution 515: demands that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in.
Resolution 517: censures Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon.
Resolution 518: demands that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon.
Resolution 520: condemns Israel's attack into West Beirut.
Resolution 573: condemns Israel vigorously for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters.
Resolution 587: takes note of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw.
Resolution 592: strongly deplores the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops.
Resolution 605: strongly deplores Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.
Resolution 607: calls on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Resolution 608: deeply regrets that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians.
Resolution 636: deeply regrets Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
Resolution 641: deplores Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 672: condemns Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram Al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
Resolution 673: deplores Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
Resolution 681: deplores Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 694: deplores Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
Resolution 726: strongly condemns Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 799: strongly condemns Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

The Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) is a cornerstone of international humanitarian law that ensures minimum protections for civilians in armed conflict and occupation. It forbids, among other things: the construction of settlements on occupied land1, unilateral annexation2, willful killing of civilians3, collective punishment4, torture5, and the destruction of property without a compelling military reason6. It also requires judicial accountability for those who commit war crimes (defined as "grave breaches" listed in Article 147 of the Convention). The Convention fully takes into account military necessity and cannot be violated for "security" reasons.

1Article 49, 2Article 47, 3Articles 146-147, 4Article 33, 5Articles 31-32 and146-147, 6Articles 53 and 146-147
Posted by AmelMag at 1:40 PM

http://salemshalom.blogspot.ie/2007/12/heres-list-of-u.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 04:46 PM

Jim, Fisk arrived after the massacre.
Nothing he saw or heard on that first day implicated Israel.

Of all your UN resolutions, not one was supported by a proper democracy.

Democracies are outvoted at UN by dictatorships and Islamic Republics.

Proper democracies, with a free and informed press and media, know that all the ant-Israel shit is just that.

The lies you peddle are recognised as just that, outside your little bubble of bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 05:15 AM

"Fisk arrived after the massacre."
Apart from the eye-witnesses, whose testimony you have rejected out of hand as being biased, untrustworthy, anti-Israeli, bigoted....... everybody other than the perpetrators and survivors "arrived after the massacre" That is the nature of all crimes and all investigations into crimes.
You have even dismissed the statements of the Israeli soldiers who confessed to co-operating with the killing and had conscience enough to speak out .
Fisk was one of the first on the scene and made a point of gathering information from everybody he could and published what he came up with; he later followed that up with a long term investigation and published his findings on that.
Dr Ang Swee Chai was there; she lectured on her experiences (you have yet to explain where your ridiculous "book cover" claim came from), explaining what happened in detail (your utterly stupid suggestion that medical staff who were treating casualties in the middle of a massacre didn't know what was going on really does sum up your mindless defence of all this)   
Amnon Kapeliouk painstakingly researched the massacre, scoured all the available evidence, weighed it up and published it, giving all the references he had drawn upon; those references came from both the eye-witnesses and the Israelis - both sides of the argument – his sources are exhaustive and impeccable.
It remains, as far as I can see, the most comprehensive analysis of the massacre - from an Israeli Jewish academic - if a bit long for some people.
You have been given all this and much more - in return you have presented unattributed statements which, as you have failed to identify your sources, leave the impression that they are your own inventions - you made up facts to get the Israeli regime off the hook, even going so far as to implicate the 3,000 victims in terrorism by suggesting that they were armed and could fight their killers- another bottom-of-the-barrel.
Your Alice in Wonderland claims regarding the illumination provided beggars belief - torches, car headlights (what ****** cars - perhaps the Phalangists drove into the camps in Jags and Mercs and didn't arrive on Israeli-provided transport as documented - or maybe they nicked cars from the local car parks in this refugee camp - are you out of your skull?)
You have rejected every single piece of evidence that doesn't back up the Israeli case and have provided none of your own - not a scrap - and you call us bigoted!!
You have now topped your case by presenting the United Nations as a 'Muslim Plot' to make your non- existent case.
Jay-sus
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 06:01 AM

So do you challenge my statement about the countries that did and did not vote for all those UN motions?
No you don't.

Do you challenge Siegel's statement that there was complete silence under the flares?
No you don't
"No screams. No cries for help." The only sounds were of "light artillery" (most likely the mortars firing the flares)

If Fisk was not there, he can not be a witness.
None of the eye witnesses he spoke to that morning implicated IDF.
Luckily for him, every time he went back, he found more and more who did.
It would not make a story if just another Arab on Arab massacre.

Massacre victims do not go to hospital.
The hospital treated people wounded in fighting.
None of the hospital testimonies mentioned patients reporting massacres (except for rapes and murders at another hospital that never actually happened).
Deny any of that Jim?
No you don't.
Israeli soldiers. Many testified at the time.
Strangely, the vast majority of soldiers present do not report anything different, and the tiny handful that now do, only emerged long after.
That makes their stories highly equivocal.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:03 AM

Piss off Keith - you've blown it
If you hadn't done your old usual of aiming for the last word again none of us would have bothered taking it any further.
As it is, as well as showing yourself as the arsehole you are you've given us the opportunity to present sources that we wouldn't have bothered with.
I knew about the Kapeliouk book and am grateful for the chance to present some of his findings, I was not aware of the Inequality Report which will be useful for future reference, and again, I'm grateful for the opportunity to learn from it and for being able to share it with others.
"The hospital treated people wounded in fighting."
Your arguments get crasser and crasser.
The hospitals I'm familiar with treat everything from headaches to bubonic plague - I would have thought that anybody injured as the result of being present at a massacre would rate fairly high on their priority scale.
Your desperation is beginning to show.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 09:05 AM

So you can not challenge one statement.
You lose.

Dr Ang Swee Chai and Nurse Siegel describe in detail what happened in the hospital right in the centre of the camps.
No-one reported massacres and they were unaware of them, so it is not surprising that IDF outside were also unaware.

Can you find something in either account that contradicts that?
No you can not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 11:24 AM

Eyewitness statements ARE NOT VALID EVIDENCE, according to DonT.


"From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:54 PM
...I
... unsupported word would not carry a case in any court of law. Why should you assume that it would be any different here.
....

Don T."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM

"So you can not challenge one statement."
No Keith - I choose to end this black-hole argument here - I think we've all become tired of feeding your ego by responding to made up facts and figures.
Come up with some facts and and sources that you haven't invented and you might have a case - why should anybody bother responding to a self-confessed ignoramous who is stupid enough to admit he is only presenting one side of the case.
Hi Bruce - back to take up where you left off (27 Mar 13 - 01:13 PM ")? - didn't think so somehow.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 01:10 PM

Jim,

I answered your questions- whether you like the answers is not my problem.

DonT has stated that eyewitness testimony is not valid. So, even if you could show that the people YOU claim saw the massacre did so, you must provide documented evidence for it to be valid- that means actual bodies, I guess ( ask Don what he would accept...) You have claimed they are under the stadium- have you any evidence of that, such as bones or at least xrays of the area?


If not, we have to go by Don's rules, which state you have no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

Now, Jim, you have NEVER answered my questions.

1. What percentage of the Mandate Palestine should be given to the Arab Moslums, and what percentage to the Jews? Remember,

"The 1922 census of Palestine was the first census carried out by the authorities of the British Mandate of Palestine, on 23 October 1922.[1]
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 1,454 Hindus, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]"

That means that Muslims were 77.9% of the total population. And the Mandate power (Great Britain) split off over 77% of the land and created an Arab state, with Jews prohibited.

So how much of the less than 33% of the remaining Mandate Palestine territory would you say that the Arab Muslims should be given?

GIVE ME A NUMBER!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 01:36 PM

I think we've all become tired of feeding your ego by responding to made up facts and figures.

Another of your lies that repetition has elevated to the status of FUCKING LIE!

I make up nothing.
I can substantiate everything and keep offering to.

You know this, so you can only repeat the lie.

YOU LOSE.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:34 PM

Hey Bruce, you ever look up the studies on the value & validity of eyewitness testimony?

No? Do check it out before you go slagging Don off.

You might actually learn something. Or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:54 PM

Jim.
what ****** cars - perhaps the Phalangists drove into the camps in Jags and Mercs

Siegel reports the Phalange having "jeeps" in the camp.

Also, although I do not really believe in apocryphal Peterson the canny cameraman, he says they had trucks too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:17 PM

GIVE ME A NUMBER!

47.275

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 04:15 AM

"I answered your questions- whether you like the answers is not my problem."
No you didn't Bruce - you made a couple of statements, you were challenged and yo, as you have done every time, did a runner - that is not an answer.
What Don did or did not say (taken out of context by you) is between you and Don, he's more than capable of speaking for himself. - take it up with him and don't hide behind other people's statements - you have mine.
"YOU LOSE."
This is not about winning or losing, not with most of us here anyway.
It's a sick game with you; making up and twisting and turning arguments to win some sort of prize - it's no more than an ego-trip for you.
You've had responses to your claims dozens of times from me and from others - you can't bother reading them.
Meanwhile - back to the reality (please note the constant reference to the presence of Israeli vehicles on the scene - perhaps their headlights were used for the massacre - it was in line with the way Israelis behaved hear.)
The idea of headlights" and "torches" being used is a grotesque nonsense- THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY DISPUTE THAT THE ISRAELIS LIT THE SITE UP LIKE A CHRISTMAS TREE - EVEN THEY DIDN'T DENY THAT
And once again, thanks for the opportunity to present yet more evidence.
Jim Carroll


From Kapeliouk
"The carnage began immediately. It lasted forty hours without interruption. The Israelis were able to observe the operations from the roof (seventh floor) of the three Lebanese buildings they had occupied since September 3. They were equipped with telescopes and binoculars with night-vision. In reality, they did not need this equipment because they were only 200 meters away from the major location of the carnage. During these two days, the building swarmed with officers. There was an endless flow of traffic in and out; vehicles of the signal corps, armored vehicles and different units all around. To quote one Israeli officer, watching from the roof of these buildings was like watching "from the front row of a theater.""

"At the same time, pictures depicting scenes from the camps were portrayed on television screens throughout the world. American journalist George Will, notorious for his relentless support of Israel, described the massacre as the ''Babi Yar" of Israel. He wrote: ''Palestinians have now had their Babi Yar, their Lidice. The Beirut massacre has altered the moral algebra of the Middle East, producing a new symmetry of suffering"[6] (Washington Post, September 23, 1982).
American Jews interviewed by an Israeli television correspondent stated that they were ashamed of being Jewish at such times. The Jewish Chronicle, official organ of the Jewish community in England, wrote: "After the 'mopping up' of camps in Beirut, it is Israel that should now be cleaned of all those who authorized or were implicated in this horror which brought shame to us all."

And from the Israeli press – the aftermath of the massacre:
"WAR CRIME IN BEIRUT"
Units of the Lebanese Army established a "security belt" around the two camps using 1500 soldiers supported by 40 armored vehicles. The deployment of Lebanese troops continued throughout the night. By Monday morning, there were no signs of Israeli soldiers.
Inside the camps, the smell of death grew stronger as new corpses were uncovered. At the entrance of Shatila, more than 100 bodies were still lined on the ground near two mass graves. Many bodies were already in a state of decomposition making it impossible to identify the victims. The corpses were lowered inside these massive holes and covered with quicklime. The burials, which started the day before, continued for several days.
Oblivious to the rescue teams, survivors of the camps continued to wander aimlessly hoping to locate a missing parent or a precious possession. An elderly man, accompanied by a woman and two children, searched in the rubble of their home in Shatila. Their cries deafened nearby rescue workers. However, none of the workers dared to speak to them. Further down, a young man returned to locate his brother's remains. He uncovered another corpse behind every wall. Three young people sitting next to a demolished hut whispered to each other. One of them told an approaching journalist: "We will never again rely on the promises of others. We will never again entrust others with our destiny and security. We will take care of ourselves by ourselves."
Camp residents were still traumatized by the forty hours of carnage they lived through. In the morning, two trucks arrived loaded with Lebanese soldiers dressed in bright green uniforms, in contrast to the dark green worn by the other soldiers stationed in the camps. The residents were struck with horror as rumors spread that "Haddad's militiamen are back." Hundreds of panic-stricken residents stampeded northward. They did not return to the camp until the afternoon when they received assurances from the Lebanese authorities.
In West Beirut, Israeli withdrawal from the center of the city to the periphery became evident as early as Monday morning. Nine days later, on September 29, the Israelis, UNDER STRONG AMERICAN PRESSURE, had completed their total withdrawal from Beirut including the airport. They were replaced by troops from the Multinational Force. Meanwhile, the Israelis continued to search for arms and munition depots. They went through the neighborhoods with bullhorns, asking the residents to surrender their weapons. Israeli officers driving military vehicles or even civilian cars with Israeli license plates, dashed through the streets of Beirut with name-lists in their hands. Often accompanied by local informers, they would slowly drive back and forth past the headquarters, press offices or residences of leftist Lebanese leaders who sympathized with the Palestinian cause. Frequently, they would stop and ask whether so-and-so was inside. If the person they sought was not there, they would make an appointment to pick him up an hour later. Blindfolded civilians with their hands tied behind their backs were seen being transported in Israeli vehicles. No one knows the exact number of Lebanese and Palestinians arrested by the Israelis in Beirut. Their present legal status and whereabouts are also unknown. The Lebanese press estimates the number of detainees at 1000-1500.
Israeli soldiers continued to plunder the well-equipped library of the Palestine Research Center of the P.L.O. in West Beirut. All materials, books and documents were loaded indiscriminately aboard trucks chartered for this task. A jeep and a tank covered this operation. When questioned by a Lebanese journalist, the Israeli officer in charge of the "moving operation" responded that his soldiers were taking "everything I find useful." He added: "We are the 'People of the Book,' and we have great respect for books." When the journalist reminded him that this was a research center, the Israeli officer retorted: "It is a center of espionage. There are no Palestinian intellectuals, only spies. The evidence we found includes biographies of Israeli officers."[7]
Daily life in West Beirut became increasingly precarious. Food supplies had not been replenished for five days, the city was without electric power and the water supply was diminishing. Furthermore, the scarcity of fuel oil threatened to close the last functioning major hospital in the city -the American Hospital.
In Israel, newspapers appeared for the first time since the massacre was announced. A front-page headline in Ha'aretz read: "War Crime in Beirut." Its military correspondent, Ze'ev Schiff, started his article with these words:

A war crime has been committed in the refugee camps of Beirut. The Phalangists have killed hundreds, if not more, of elderly people, women and children, exactly in the same fashion pogroms were carried out against Jews. It is not true, as claimed by official spokesmen that we didn't learn of this crime until Saturday at noon after receiving reports filed by foreign correspondents stationed in Beirut. I personally heard about it on Friday morning. I brought all my information to the attention of a senior official who took immediate action. In other words, the massacre began Thursday evening, and what I learned on Friday morning was certainly known to others before me.

On its editorial page, the same paper wrote:

The circumstances under which the horrible deed was carried out inevitably clarified Israel's responsibility indirect or direct, for the death of hundreds of helpless people. ... Even if Israel cannot clean the stain of Sabra and Shatila, it is its duty to show -first to itself and then to the rest of the world- that it is taking itself to task because of this terrible event that has taken place within the realm of its responsibility. The removal from office of General Eitan and Mr. Sharon is a first and necessary precondition for us to be able to look ourselves and the world straight in the eyes again. (Ha'aretz, September 21, 1982).

Under the headline: "The Shame of Beirut," the Labor daily, Davar, wrote: "It is difficult to be an Israeli ... We shall not be able to absolve ourselves of this stain. What has been perpetrated by those who carried out the Deir Yassin massacre, the commander of the Qibya raid and the one who commuted Daniel Pinto's sentence,[8] defames the entire nation today." Hanna Zemer, editor-in-chief of Davar, referred to the "villainous government which dragged the State of Israel into moral bankruptcy." She added: "If the government forces the army to stay in Beirut and continues to assign it the role of gendarme in this region of the world, we won't surrender our reservist cards, but the day will come soon when we shall surrender our identity cards because this is not our identity."
Al-Hamishmar, the voice of MAPAM (United Workers Party), wrote: "This slaughter has made the war in Lebanon the greatest disaster to befall the Jewish people since the holocaust." Even the evening newspapers which are generally favorable to Begin's policy on relations with the Arabs did not try to avoid responsibility. Both Yedi'ot Aharonot and Ma'ariv thought that Israel shared some indirect blame for the massacre.
The right wing political parties were quite embarrassed. A number of their leaders were quoted saying: "It is better not to discuss the situation because it is harmful to Israel." Others, as if trying to vindicate themselves, declared: "It is not, however, the first time a massacre has occurred in the Middle East!" Nevertheless, these reactions did not succeed in containing the indignation of many diverse elements. The press published on Saturday, and in subsequent issues, articles and statements of unparalleled intensity. Israel Zamir, the son of Nobel Prize-winner Isaac Bashevis-Singer, wrote: "Until this day, the word 'pogrom' had a connotation which directly concerned us, Jews, as victims. Prime Minister Begin has 'extended' the scope of the term: there was Babi-Yar, Lidice, Oradour, and now there is Sabra and Shatila."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 04:55 AM

A debate can be won or lost, and you lose.
Israeli equipment was supplied.
Never disputed.
Flares were fired.
Not disputed but irrelevant to the massacre.
It would have happened with or without flares.

Siegel says there was silence in the camps under the flares.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:29 AM

Are you suggesting that despite the fact that despite the undisputed fact that the Israelis lit the skies with flares, the killers chose not to use that light, but preferred to use torches and car headlights - that they stopped killing every tiome the flares came on - well done Keith, another classic
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times.
IRISH CAMERAMAN SHOT BY ISRAELIS
AINE McMAHON
An Irish cameraman was shot in the arm yesterday by the Israeli military while filming a protest in the Palestinian village of Nabi Saleh in the occupied West Bank.
Tommy Donnellan from Galway, who travelled to the West Bank last month, said he sustained a wound from a rubber-coated steel bullet which punctured his upper right arm.
Mr Donnellan said he had been filming the protest when he was shot in the arm by an Israeli soldier almost 40 feet away. Nabi Saleh is a village with a population of 550,20km northwest of Ramallah in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.
"I think I was deliberately targeted as a journalist, as my video camera was plainly visible and there was no stone throwing going on anywhere near me. After being hit I remonstrated with the soldier who fired on me. He then went back down on to his knee adopting a firing position; luckily I was able to run to the cover of a nearby wall."
Mr Donnellan said Palestinians were injured by these bullets "almost every day" and many had been killed by "so-called non-lethal weapons".
A spokesman for the Department of Foreign Affairs said the Irish Embassy in Tel Aviv had been in contact with Mr Donnellan to see if he required any consular assistance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:55 AM

"Siegel says there was silence in the camps under the flares."
Where di you get her "silence" claim – another 'makie up', no doubt?
You really don't intend to stop lying, do you?
Jim Carroll

From Ellen Seigal's letter
Where did you get her "silence" claim – another 'makie up', no doubt ?
Jim Carroll
"Following the assassination of the newly-elected president of Lebanon in mid-September all hell broke loose. I listened as Israeli planes broke the sound barrier over the camps, heard continuous heavy artillery fire, and stayed away from shattering windows. For almost 48 hours, from September 16th to the 18th, I attempted to save the lives of those who were brought to the hospital. Many had severe wounds from being shot at close range. I cared for hundreds of terrified refugees seeking the safety of the hospital. I tried to comprehend the throat-slitting gesture the women made. . I WATCHED FROM A TOP FLOOR OF THE HOSPITAL AS FLARES WERE SHOT IN THE AIR. THE FLARES ILLUMINATED AREAS OF THE CAMP; THE SOUND OF AUTOMATIC WEAPONS FIRE FOLLOWED EACH ILLUMINATION."

Not only but also:
"For the next 38 hours, aided by Israeli flares at night, the militiamen raped, tortured, mutilated and massacred civilians. IDF personnel, including General Amos Yaron, IDF Commander in Beirut, were stationed on the rooftop of a seven-story building 200 meters from Shatilla, with a clear view of the camps below. Also there were members of the Phalangist intelligence who had radio communication with militiamen on the ground. By
Friday morning, evidence that a massacre was taking place was communicated to Israeli Chief of Staff, Raphael Eitan, but he approved a request that the Phalangists remain in the camps until 5:00 am Saturday. The militiamen finally left the camps at 8:00 am."
http://www.niu.edu/phil/~kapitan/pdf/SabraandShatillaMassacre.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 06:47 AM

Jim, there is a discrepancy in Siegel's accounts.
I referred to her more detailed account made 10 years earlier than the one you quote.http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm



First night.
"That evening, a few other health-care workers and I climbed to one of the top floors of the hospital; it had been unused since the recent invasion. Because most of the walls had been bombed out, the view was unobstructed. We watched for a time as flares were shot into the air, brightly illuminating different parts of the camp. After each flare, rounds of light artillery fire were heard. I thought people were trying to shoot down the flares. Not a sound was heard from the camps except the noise of the flares being projected and the shots that followed. No screaming, no cries for help, no human sound, nothing. Israeli planes continued to fly overhead as the night went on.

(Sometime Friday morning, in the midst of this bombardment, a film crew from Visnews came. They did some filming, then left. Late in the afternoon, representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross appeared; they evacuated a half-dozen critically injured children, whom they placed in other hospitals around the city. They also left us oxygen, blood and other vital and much-needed supplies. Finally, the ambassador of Norway came by".)

Second night
"By that evening, the heavy artillery had ceased. Only the sound of light artillery and gunshots could be heard. Sundown marked the beginning of Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year of 5743. That night I managed to get a few hours' sleep. Very early on Saturday morning, September 18, I was awakened by one of the other nurses."

Despite what she says here, I would have expected firing during the illumination.
The flares were fired for a purpose, but not for a massacre.
The murderers could have easily done their work without flares or in daylight.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM

"After each flare, rounds of light artillery fire were heard"
That is exactly what the lady said.
As I asked - do you believe that the Phalangists stopped firing when the Israeli flares were up and resumed the slaughter when they'd gone out because they preferred to use torches and car headlights - stop being crass - if the flares weren't needed, why provide them?
The Israelis new from day one that a massacre was taking placeyet they continued to illuminate the camp - nobody but you has ever disputed it.
"The carnage began immediately. It lasted forty hours without interruption. The Israelis were able to observe the operations from the roof (seventh floor) of the three Lebanese buildings they had occupied since September 3. They were equipped with telescopes and binoculars with night-vision. In reality, they did not need this equipment because they were only 200 meters away from the major location of the carnage."
"To quote one Israeli officer, watching from the roof of these buildings was like watching "from the front row of a theater."
You are obviously not going to acknowledge the shooting of the camera man, not the reaction of the Israeli press at the time of the massacre - I didn't expect for a moment you would
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:35 AM

I thought you wouldn't mind my adding the rest of the unlinked and unidentified bit of the article with the awkward bits included
Jim Carroll


WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 19, 2007
Ellen's Story: Nurse, Witness and Peace campaigner
MAKING A POINT in London, before she went on to make a name in Lebanon.

REMEMBERING the massacre at Sabra and Chatila which shocked us all twenty five years ago,
I mentioned Dr.Swee Chai Ang, who worked in the camps' Gaza hospital, and testified before the Kahan Commission in Israel. Swee, whose Singapore Christian background and beliefs had originally predisposed her to see Israel's side before she went to work in Lebanon, wrote about her experiences in "From Beirut to Jerusalem", published in 1989.

Today I'll introduce another witness, from a different background, who worked as a colleague of Swee's at the hospital.

In 1973, two women stood outside the Israeli embassy in London with placards drawing attention to the bizarre logic of Israel's Law of Return. One of them, Ellen Siegel, carried a sign pointing out that as an American Jew, born in the USA, she could "return" to Israel-Palestine. Her co-demonstrator, Palestinian-born Dr. Ghada Karmi bore a sign saying that as a Palestinian, born in Jerusalem she could not return. It was a telling point, when few people here had given thought to what Zionism entailed. It was also a striking little event, at that time for a Jewish woman, identifying herself as such, to protest outside an Israeli embassy.

Ellen Siegel was an unusual woman. But her background seemed usual enough, indeed more conservative than most. "I was born and raised in a conservative/orthodox Jewish household," she says. Her grandparents escaped pogroms in Eastern Europe by coming to America, where they spoke only Yiddish and strictly observed religious holidays. Ms. Siegel's parents followed suit. She attended Hebrew school twice a week, and went to an orthodox synagogue every Saturday, as well as a religious school every Sunday. "It was only when I went to high school that I learned there were people other than Jewish people," she recalls. After high school, Ms. Siegel went to a Jewish nursing school and then practiced in Jewish hospitals in New York and Washington, D.C.

But one thing Ellen seems to have got from her family and teachers is an understanding of what it means to be persecuted, and a sense that when you see people ill-treated it is your duty to speak out. Growing up at a time of America's civil rights struggles she learned to recognise and react against racism - even when she encountered it from fellow-Jews. During a trip to Europe in 1972 she decided to visit the Middle East and see things for herself. Hearing Israelis sound like Southern racists when they talked about "dirty Arabs" was one thing that upset her. But there was more. In Lebanon, Ellen visited the synagogue in Beirut and befriended people in the local Jewish community. She also met Palestinians, and as she said,. "I had been taught that there was no such thing as Palestinian people and I never knew about a land called Palestine. But then I went through the Borj El-Barajneh refugee camp and it was a real mind blower."

Ellen Siegel decided not just to speak but to act. By taking her nursing skills to work among the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon she would be doing something useful and, as being from a religious background she might put it, atoning for the sins of others. Thus it was that in September 1982, a "nice Jewish girl from Baltimore" (as she humorously described herself) found herself nursing amid the hell of Sabra and Chatila. Here is part of her account:

http://randompottins.blogspot.ie/2007/09/ellens-story-nurse-witness-and-peace.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:08 AM

"After each flare, rounds of light artillery fire were heard"
That is exactly what the lady said.

Yes Jim, but the massacre victims were not killed by artillery.

if the flares weren't needed, why provide them?
They were required for the legitimate operation, but were irrelevant to the massacre.

The Israelis new from day one that a massacre was taking placeyet they continued to illuminate the camp - nobody but you has ever disputed it.
Nobody disputes the flares.
It is denied by Israel that they knew from the start, and you have failed to find evidence of that.
Seigel and the doctor did not know until it was over.
The Red Cross and the fim crew and the ambassador who visted the hospital on second day were all unaware of it, and they were all INSIDE the camps.
No Israeli was.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:27 AM

Do I have this right – the Israelis knew that a massacre was taking place because they were informed of it on day one and their command post was 200 yards from the centre of the action0 "To quote one Israeli officer, watching from the roof of these buildings was like watching "from the front row of a theater" yet they continued to provide extreme illumination for three nights – but that's ok with you – is that right?
I think we're finished with this, don't you?
"It is denied by Israel that they knew from the start"
They would say that. wouldn't they - every other report says they dis, even producing evidence from their own investigation.
you really are not going to respond to the shooting of an Irish cameraman, the use of rubber coated steel bullets on peaceful demonstrators or the shame of the Israeli press who compared the massacre to "Babi Yar" and "Lidice" - are you.
Have a good day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:33 AM

The idea that Israeli army had a legitimate operation is ridiculous. The flares over Lebanon violates their air space. The purpose of these flares is to illuminate the area they light
for further military action in violation of international law.

The idea that this is a "self defense" mechanism is ludicrous.

How do you know that the flares have no lethal ability? That hasn't been established.
Even so, it's a provocative act of an aggressive expansionist state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:42 AM

You always try to change the subject.
Do you know it was a peaceful protest?
I doubt rubber bullets would be used if it was.
A soldier fired the rubber bullet.
He may have been wrong to fire it.
If he was, he should be punished.

the Israelis knew that a massacre was taking place because they were informed of it on day one
Not true.
and their command post was 200 yards from the centre of the action0
No, it was 200 yards from the camp entrance, and people INSIDE were still unaware on the second day.

They would say that. wouldn't they - every other report says they dis, even producing evidence from their own investigation.
No report says they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:50 AM

Young Palestinian protesters use slingshots to hurl stones towards Israeli troops during a demonstration against the expansion of Jewish settlements in the village of Nabi Saleh in the occupied West Bank on March 29, 2013. ABBAS MOMANI/AFP/Getty Images

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:51 AM

http://photos.mercurynews.com/2013/03/29/top-news-photos-for-march-29/#4

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 02:05 PM

Jim, I asked how you knew they were "peaceful demonstrators "

I looked at the Irish Times piece so I know the answer.
You made it up.
Like you made up Siegel seeing bodies buried and all the other lies you have to tell because you have no case without them.

We never make up anything and even if we were liars, have no need to.

Your case against Israel is based on lies.
Those lies are pushed by some of the nastiest regimes in the world, but decent democracies with free and informed media know it is all lies.

They would not be on warm, friendly terms with a state guilty of such things.
It is all lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 02:37 PM

From the introduction to Amnon Kapeliouk's book
The evidence presented here by Amnon Kapeliouk, the testimony given at the Kahan Commission, and the independent news reports about the massacres raise serious questions regarding the legal culpability of the principal Israel and Lebanese actors in the slaughter in Sabra and Shatilla camps. These questions of Criminal, as opposed to political culpability, remain to be dealt with. The Palestinian people are the most aggrieved party, but have no ability to initiate criminal prosecution proceedings. They have no state which can become a party to the several Conventions relating to crimes against humanity. International law placed Israel under a direct, unequivocal duty to protect the civilian population in the refugee camps. Israel not only failed to carry out this responsibility, but actively facilitated the arming and provisioning of the armed militia groups which entered the camp. Israel prevented the flight of the civilian population from the camps. Furthermore, it was the Israeli occupation of West Beirut which secured the approaches to the Sabra and Shatilla camps. Even if there was no coordinated plan between Israeli military officers and Lebanese Forces leadership, Israel remains culpable for its failure to provide even a modicum of protection to the civilian populationThese factors, together with the numerous anti-Palestinian statements such as Prime Minister Begin's remark in the Knesset that Palestinians were "two-legged beasts,'' must be seen as direct and public incitement to commit genocide, complicity in genocide or conspiracy to commit genocide. .
The Genocide Convention demands proof of intent. This is sufficiently established by several facts. Reports to Israeli generals that a massacre was transpiring were not checked. They were not transmitted to superiors, nor were any steps taken to stop the killing until a considerable period of time had elapsed.,/font> The most telling piece of evidence is that none of the perpetrators have been apprehended either for trial by Israeli courts or to be handed over to Lebanese authorities. Israeli military and intelligence officials obviously knew the identities of the armed men who entered the camps between September 16 and 18. Indeed, one of the Phalangists who participated in the massacres traveled to Israel for an interview on Israeli television. Israeli cameramen in West Beirut filmed the Phalangists. Some of their pictures were published and others shown on Israeli television. Many of these militiamen continued to operate in that portion of Lebanon occupied by Israeli soldiers
As a signatory to both the Geneva Conventions and the Genocide Convention, Israel was legally bound to arrest and try those persons who were both directly and indirectly involved in the wanton slaughter in Sabra and Shatilla. In addition to these international provisions, Israeli domestic precedent established in the trial of Adolph Eichmann provided a legal framework in which these provisions could have been carried out. Israel has not done so, and one might ask why if the Begin government were not directly involved ... .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 02:54 PM

The news report said that the cameraman saw no violence and the press report says there was no violence in his area and he was deliberately targeted by the soldier, who then dropped on one knee and took aim as he was retreating.
Can I remind you that you have just been caught editing a huge chunk out of the Ellen Seigal story?

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 03:19 PM

I have not been caught editing anything Jim.
The untruths pile up.


The news report said that the cameraman saw no violence and the press report says there was no violence in his area and he was deliberately targeted by the soldier, who then dropped on one knee and took aim as he was retreating.

No it did not.
It quoted him as claiming that.
He is no neutral journalist searching out the truth.
He does not work for Irish Times or any other media organisation.
He has been working with and for the Palestinian activists for years.
He was arrested in 2010.
He was there just to get Israel more bad press.
I have no doubt he provoked the soldier, probably throwing rocks at him, but that is just my own speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 03:22 PM

the cameraman saw no violence
So we know he lies.
See my posts 9.51 and 9.50 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 10:58 AM

Sling shots are probably done by some Palestinians but are not an official policy. Of course they are no match for cluster bombs and all out military assaults by Israelis.

There are those who are not just Zionists, which may believe different things politically but they are "Zionazis. " Netanyahu, Lieberman and many members of the Likud could be characterized as such. Lebanon might be their new "Sudatenland".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:13 AM

I admit, a little research on Wiki powerfully backs you up Stringsinger.

The Israeli occupation of Lebanon began in 1976 as a result of the civil war and ended in April 2005 in response to domestic and international pressure after the assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister, Rafik Hariri."
In June, 1976, To deal with the opposition posed by this latter group (which was normally allied with Israel), Israel dispatched Palestinian units under its control into Lebanon, and soon after sent in its own troops as well.

September 1986, Lebanon actually requested an end to the Israeli presence in Lebanon. Hence, according to von Glahn, it appeared that lacking legal authority from both Lebanon and the Arab League, Israel's military forces had to be regarded henceforth as illegal occupants of Lebanon."[2]
Following the assassination of the Lebanese ex-premier Rafik Hariri in 2005, and an alleged involvement of Israel in his death a public uprising nicknamed Cedar Revolution had swept the country. With the consequent adoption of UN resolution 1559, Israel was forced to announce its full withdrawal from Lebanon on April 30, 2005.[5]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 07:59 AM

It looks like Stringsinger has finally lost the plot completely - it's too bad, he was once relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:12 AM

Still waiting on the answer to my question:

How much of Israel should Palestinians get to steal?


They have been offered far more than the 47+ percent that GregF thinks they should have, and turned it down.


Jim???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 09:10 AM

Amran Hussain EUJS speech at the UN 21st of March 2011

"EUJS speech at the UN during the Item 7 to support Israel, Against UN dispropationnal reaction.
As a muslim student, he wanted to explain himself and why he decided to make this speech."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:13 PM

Stringsinger, earlier in the thread we learned that according to European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)it is recognised that trying to equate Israel with Natzi crimes identifies an antisemite.

My quotes were from a Wiki page but I transposed Israel for Syria.
It was Syria who emulated the Natzis by marching troops into Lebanon to occupy it illegally for 30 years.
It was Syria who assasinated legitimate Lebanese leaders, one such assasination leading directly to that first massacre at Sabra/Shatila.

So why not a single word of criticism of Syria from all of you?
Bigotry, and a hate fueled prejudice against the Israeli people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:10 PM

Hey Keith, I do criticize Syria. There is no hatred and bigotry on my part toward Israeli people. I sympathize with their predicament, they have leaders who are not being just.
Here's an item that you might look at.

Freedom from slavery?

Remember Keith that Palestinians are a Semitic people also and there is a difference between being anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish. Since I come from a long line of Jews, I am not anti-Jewish, quite the contrary, proud of the people on my mother's side who were Ashkenazim in Hungary and Austria.Many preserve Palestinian rather than Babylonian traditions. 80% of Jews are Ashkenazim.

Bobad, it isn't about me. What is relevant here is there is justification for Israeli incursion into Lebanon unless it is national paranoia. This also applies to the subjugation of the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:29 PM

Stringsinger, you make unjustifiable comparisons between Israel and the Nazis.

It was not me who highlighted the significance of that.
Whatever your genealogy, that is what you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:39 AM

And, when have you ever criticised Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:50 AM

"unjustifiable comparisons between Israel and the Nazis."
.,,.
There is another regular contributor to this thread - he will know whom I mean - with whom I had rather a disagreeable passage of arms on this very topic some time ago, when he was indulging in the practice of using terms like Holocaust [with its cap H] in relation to some Israeli actions, but would not accept the implications in his attitude which this implied. I hope he has now taken note of the fact that "according to European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)it is recognised that trying to equate Israel with Nazi crimes identifies an antisemite".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:34 AM

Keith, that's your opinion. I am not an antisemite for criticizing Israel's behavior. I see Nazi-like attitudes coming out of Israeli leadership and I never said that Israel was like Nazi Germany.

I highlight the significance of that.

The mistake you make is thinking that my criticism of Israeli leadership is a condemnation of the Israeli people. I don't hate them and I sympathize with their plight by being lead around by these militarized leaders who have behaved like Nazis. We have similar problems in the U.S.

My criticism of Syria is not relevant to this thread.

Hiding behind the Holocaust as a justification for oppressing the Palestinian people is reprehensible. It cheapens the memory.

By the way, are you Jewish?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:43 AM

"Hiding behind the Holocaust as a justification for oppressing the Palestinian people is reprehensible"

The Palestinian people living in Israel do not consider themselves to be oppressed - why do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:23 PM

""The three Clinton vetoes brought to 32 the number Washington has cast to protect Israel."
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html""

Thirty two US vetoes and Keith called me a liar when I said there were any. I guess it's now obvious which of us is a liar (if it wasn't already blindingly obvious).
______________________________________________________________________

""Had there been none, it would still have been reasonable to go in and check.""

So you would say that the phalangists checked all those civilians to death?
______________________________________________________________________

""All the motions were proposed by nasty Islamic Republics and
vicious little dictatorships who outnumber the decent democracies,""

And there, the veneer having slipped, we see the real nasty little Islamophobe.
______________________________________________________________________

""Proper democracies, with a free and informed press and media, know that all the ant-Israel shit is just that.

The lies you peddle are recognised as just that, outside your little bubble of bigots.""

See the above comment! He'd be a wow at the White Supremacists' Convention.
______________________________________________________________________

""Eyewitness statements ARE NOT VALID EVIDENCE, according to DonT.""

Don't be any more of a fuckwit than you can help BB, you know damn well that is a misquote of what I said.

One unsupported eye witness statement is evidence but proves nothing in court.

You need at least two for it to be proof.

Added to which I most certainly was not referring to the Sabra/Shatila eye witnesses.

There are more than enough of them for proof, if we could only get past the fundamentalist pro Israelis who shout everyone else down (or try to).
______________________________________________________________________
""I make up nothing.
I can substantiate everything and keep offering to.

You know this, so you can only repeat the lie.""

DON'T OFFER! Bloody well do it. Otherwise it's just empty bluster.

Yuo CAN'T substantiate any of it. You can only repeat and repeat the output of the Israeli propaganda machine.

Not enough.

I ask you to comment on the Bedouins who have been uprooted three times, and in spite of being told that the third place was permanent, now face a fourth upheaval, and you respond with waffle about trade with Australia

BLOODY IRRELEVANT!

So yes SUBSTANTIATE or shut up.
______________________________________________________________________

""Israel Zamir, the son of Nobel Prize-winner Isaac Bashevis-Singer, wrote: "Until this day, the word 'pogrom' had a connotation which directly concerned us, Jews, as victims. Prime Minister Begin has 'extended' the scope of the term: there was Babi-Yar, Lidice, Oradour, and now there is Sabra and Shatila." ""

This should be printed in two foot high type, and permanently displayed in the Parliament chambers of all Western countries which turn a blind eye to Israel's expansionism.
______________________________________________________________________

""A debate can be won or lost, and you lose.""

First it is necessary to debate the issue, and if and when you ever actually do that, then and only then will you have a small chance of claiming victory and a much larger chance of admitting defeat.

I look forard to it as an unlikely pleasure.
______________________________________________________________________

"" -snip-"By that evening, the heavy artillery had ceased. Only the sound of light artillery and gunshots could be heard."-snip-"" from Siegel

""...-snip-Despite what she says here, I would have expected firing during the illumination.
The flares were fired for a purpose, but not for a massacre.-snip-
"" from Keith A.

Do you ever read the posts to which you respond, usually negatively?

""artillery and gunshots""

""The three Clinton vetoes brought to 32 the number Washington has cast to protect Israel."
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html""

Thirty two US vetoes and Keith called me a liar when I said there were any. I guess it's now obvious which of us is a liar (if it wasn't already blindingly obvious).
______________________________________________________________________

""Had there been none, it would still have been reasonable to go in and check.""

So you would say that the phalangists checked all those civilians to death?
______________________________________________________________________

""All the motions were proposed by nasty Islamic Republics and
vicious little dictatorships who outnumber the decent democracies,""

And there, the veneer having slipped, we see the real nasty little Islamophobe.
______________________________________________________________________

""Proper democracies, with a free and informed press and media, know that all the ant-Israel shit is just that.

The lies you peddle are recognised as just that, outside your little bubble of bigots.""

See the above comment! He'd be a wow at the White Supremacists' Convention.
______________________________________________________________________

""Eyewitness statements ARE NOT VALID EVIDENCE, according to DonT.""

Don't be any more of a fuckwit than you can help BB, you know damn well that is a misquote of what I said.

One unsupported eye witness statement is evidence but proves nothing in court.

You need at least two for it to be proof.

Added to which I most certainly was not referring to the Sabra/Shatila eye witnesses.

There are more than enough of them for proof, if we could only get past the fundamentalist pro Israelis who shout everyone else down (or try to).
______________________________________________________________________

""I make up nothing.
I can substantiate everything and keep offering to.

You know this, so you can only repeat the lie.""

DON'T OFFER! Bloody well do it. Otherwise it's just empty bluster.

You CAN'T substantiate any of it. You can only repeat and repeat the output of the Israeli propaganda machine.

Not enough.

I ask you to comment on the Bedouins who have been uprooted three times, and in spite of being told that the third place was permanent, now face a fourth upheaval, and you respond with waffle about trade with Australia

BLOODY IRRELEVANT!

So yes SUBSTANTIATE or shut up.
______________________________________________________________________

""Israel Zamir, the son of Nobel Prize-winner Isaac Bashevis-Singer, wrote: "Until this day, the word 'pogrom' had a connotation which directly concerned us, Jews, as victims. Prime Minister Begin has 'extended' the scope of the term: there was Babi-Yar, Lidice, Oradour, and now there is Sabra and Shatila." ""

This should be printed in two foot high type, and permanently displayed in the Parliament chambers of all Western countries which turn a blind eye to Israel's expansionism.
______________________________________________________________________

""A debate can be won or lost, and you lose.""

First it is necessary to debate the issue, and if and when you ever actually do that, then and only then will you have a small chance of claiming victory and a much larger chance of admitting defeat.

I look forard to it as an unlikely pleasure.
______________________________________________________________________

"" -snip-"By that evening, the heavy artillery had ceased. Only the sound of light artillery and gunshots could be heard."-snip-"" from Siegel

""...-snip-Despite what she says here, I would have expected firing during the illumination.
The flares were fired for a purpose, but not for a massacre.-snip-
"" from Keith A.

Do you ever read the posts to which you respond, usually negatively?

""artillery and gunshots""

Could that be the firing you expected, or do you simply not know that gunshots = firing?

The light artillery didn't follow the flares, that is how flares are delivered, but when it is constant a layman could well get the idea that it followed.
______________________________________________________________________

""You always try to change the subject.""

Says Keith A, who has introduced Australia, Finland and Denmark and others to this thread.
______________________________________________________________________

""For almost 48 hours, from September 16th to the 18th, I attempted to save the lives of those who were brought to the hospital. Many had severe wounds from being shot at close range. I cared for hundreds of terrified refugees seeking the safety of the hospital. I tried to comprehend the throat-slitting gesture the women made. . I WATCHED FROM A TOP FLOOR OF THE HOSPITAL AS FLARES WERE SHOT IN THE AIR. THE FLARES ILLUMINATED AREAS OF THE CAMP; THE SOUND OF AUTOMATIC WEAPONS FIRE FOLLOWED EACH ILLUMINATION."""

This Keith, contradicts every single thing you have said about Ellen Siegel.

Do you think a nurse wouldn't recognise short range gunshot wounds and wouldn't know that the victims were civilians?
______________________________________________________________________

""We never make up anything and even if we were liars, have no need to.""

Who is "WE", you and Israel?

Pull the other one.
______________________________________________________________________

If you can't refute the evidence smear the witness.

That is even lower than the lowest I thought you would go.
______________________________________________________________________

""Bigotry, and a hate fueled prejudice against the Israeli people.""

Once again Keith, you cannot resist lying.

Nobody, but NOBODY on this thread is prejudiced against the Israeli people.

The ultra xenophobic government of Israel is our target, along with its self willed and merciless so-called "Defence Force"

It has turned the Gaza strip into an open concentration camp and is incrementally stealing the West Bank.

It responds to sticks and stones with rifle fire, to unguided rockets with total destruction and while it may not be using cluster munitions any more, it is making no effort to assist in their removal, preferring to let Arab children do the clearing at the cost of a leg, or worse.

Have I missed anything?....I'm sure there's quite a bit more.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:54 PM

""Still waiting on the answer to my question:

How much of Israel should Palestinians get to steal?""

Perhaps steal isn't the best word for regaining the part of their country which wasn't arbitrarily awarded to Israel in 1948.

Or regaining the part occupied and kept by Israel in 1967.

Israel's point of view isn't the only one. Nor is it the only one that counts.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:04 PM

DonT,

I am using the LAST set of borders that the Arab League had agreed to, in 1922-1923. THEY HAVE NOT ACCEPTED ANY OTHERS_: Why should I use them???


As I said, what portion of the REMAINING Mandate Palestine territory should be given to the Arab Muslims after they got over 77% in the form of a Jew-Free Arab Palestinian Homeland of TransJordan?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:12 PM

""So why not a single word of criticism of Syria from all of you?""

In case it has escaped your notice, this thread is about Israel, and in the course of it you have introduced Australia, Finland, Denmark, Egypt and Syria, then accused Jim of changing the subject.

Yet you refused to countenance any discussion of the piecemeal annexation of the West Bank, much more germane to the issue.

Your attitude is devious and manipulative and your understanding of debate and evidence is appallingly poor.

If you are concerned about Syria, start a thread and we'll discuss it, as long as you stop accusing us of the things you do wrong yourself.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM

""I am using the LAST set of borders that the Arab League had agreed to, in 1922-1923. THEY HAVE NOT ACCEPTED ANY OTHERS_: Why should I use them???""

The last time any firm borders were established by anyone who possessed the authority to do so, was 1948.

The decision was made, and since that time Israel has gained territory by conquest and is continuing to do so by annexation.

Why should you NOT accept reversion to THOSE borders?

After all they are, whoever has or has not accepted them, the last legally established ones.

The fact that it was not Israel who started hostilities is a bit of a red herring. Territory gained was all on their side and they've held on to it for over forty five years.

Israel is in no genuine danger from a bunch of third world primitives, given the disparity in military might.

Aggression hasn't stopped Gazan resistance, maybe returning what was taken and freeing up Gaza and the West Bank will.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:36 PM

Nice try President Obama but.........................

Bobad, tell that to West Bank and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:48 PM

"Bobad, tell that to West Bank and Gaza."

The Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza have suffered more oppression from their own leaders than they ever did and ever will from Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:58 PM

"Territory gained was all on their side and they've held on to it for over forty five years."

Germany lost territory after WWII - that is the cost of waging war on your neighbours. Is your problem with Israel the nationality of the victors?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:16 PM

Don: You are very largely right in all you say. But do recall that it was not the new state of Israel that rejected the 1948 borders, which they were perfectly willing to accept and establish themselves within; it was their Arab neighbours ~~ 5 countries ~~ who refused to allow them any of the land but tried to take it all by conquest, with 5 full fighting forces coming in from 5 different directions. They were repelled by a smaller but more dedicated force; and Israel then settled in the land it had thus gained. What would you have had them do? Go back after all that to the 1948 UN Resolution borders and then sit and wait for all their nice new neighbours to have another go? Oh, come on!...

The present situation derives from the Arab nations' intransigence then; their refusal to accept a decision voted for overwhelmingly [ie by all except the Muslim bloc] by the international body of which they were all members (apart from Transjordan) and whose decisions they were accordingly pledged to abide by.. The Israelis are still insecure as the result of that trauma; which doesn't excuse the way they go on nowadays, for which, as you know I have absolutely no sympathy; but might, to anyone with an iota of empathy, go at least some way to explain it.

It is obvious that you retrospectively disapprove of that UN resolution, & probably think the Jews settled there should have been allowed nothing. But it really is a bit late for that, even if there might conceivably be some virtue in such a view, which would be, to put it at its highest, highly debatable.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:17 PM

Stringsinger. Keith, that's your opinion.
No. I gave no opinion. I stated that you made comparison between Israel and the Nazis, and that according to European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)it is recognised that trying to equate Israel with Nazi crimes identifies an antisemite.

Don, how does it make me an "Islamophobe" and a "white supremacist" to point out that none of those anti-Israel motions were supported by liberal democracies?
I was not changing any subject when I posted about Ireland, Australia, Finland, Denmark and EU.
It was a reply to Jim's claim that it was only me who believed Israel.

Not one statement of Ellen Siegel contradicts Israel.
Both are self consistent.

I can substantiate everything I have posted, but we are well past a thousand posts.
Identify, if you can, something that requires substantiation.
Jim could not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 09:44 AM

""The Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza have suffered more oppression from their own leaders than they ever did and ever will from Israel.""

Do you, Bobad, genuinely believe that is a justification of the oppression by Israel.

If the answer is yes, you are a raving homicidal lunatic. If no, it is an excuse, and irrelevant.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 09:56 AM

""Germany lost territory after WWII - that is the cost of waging war on your neighbours.""

I was waiting for that.

They got it back in 1989, that's 44 years. Should Palestine suffer greater punishment at the hands of the Germans' victims, for a quantum leap lesser crime?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:10 AM

""What would you have had them do? Go back after all that to the 1948 UN Resolution borders and then sit and wait for all their nice new neighbours to have another go? Oh, come on!...""

That was then, this is now; 65 years later.

So take a look at the size of Israel today, and compare with the twominiscule areas to which are confined the Arabs who used to occupy most of it.

Add in the fact that Israel has been annexing the larger of the two, considerably reducing the Arab land without authority or the excuse of conquest.

Some redress of balance is essential if the Palestinians are not to be squeezed out of existence, wouldn't you agree.

And if not, are you happy with slow attritional genocide.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:18 AM

""Don, how does it make me an "Islamophobe" and a "white supremacist" to point out that none of those anti-Israel motions were supported by liberal democracies?""

It doesn't my slippery friend, but go back and read what you actually said and how you expressed it, which bears zero resemblance to your protestation above.

Admit what you really said, or I will post it for you, with suitable comment.

You are the most devious person currently posting here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:43 AM

""I can substantiate everything I have posted, but we are well past a thousand posts.
Identify, if you can, something that requires substantiation.""

Every bit I'm afraid, since you haven't attempted to do so before.

However, it won't be too bad, since you have used a small number of excuses and denials, in lieu of evidence and there is no sign that you even know how to link to sources.

Substantiate that "Israel denies that" outweighs all evidence to the contrary.

Substantiate that ""All the motions were proposed by nasty Islamic Republics and vicious little dictatorships who outnumber the decent democracies,"" (Islamophobia clearly displayed)

Substantiate ""Egypt is worse"" and ""Syria is worse"" (MY, you really don't like those ""nasty Islamic Republics, do you?"", and explain just how you see that as a justification of anything Israel does to Palestinians or its indigenous Bedouins.

That'll do for a start. I'd enjoy seeing you try to do it.

Don T.

P.S. But you won't! You'll obfuscate wildly as always.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:45 AM

"I was waiting for that.

They got it back in 1989, that's 44 years."

Um, no......ever hear of Pomerania, Silesia, East Prussia - WWII and North Schleswig, Alsace-Lorraine, West Prussia, Upper Silesia - WWI?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:53 AM

""Um, no......ever hear of Pomerania, Silesia, East Prussia - WWII and North Schleswig, Alsace-Lorraine, West Prussia, Upper Silesia - WWI?""

That's a bit desperate isn't it? Shifting the goalposts back to WW1 which everybody knows was a clusterfuck.

If they hadn't done that then, Hitler would not have had a grievance on which to hang his hat, and arguably Israel would not now exist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:02 AM

"That's a bit desperate isn't it? Shifting the goalposts back to WW1"

""Um, no......ever hear of Pomerania, Silesia, East Prussia - WWII""


Forgot this part did you Don?

Again is it because of the nationality of the victors, huh Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:11 AM

Here's an honest report on the atrocities that Israel has committed.
The nationality of the victors is no excuse for violence, slavery, oppression and imprisonment.

Chomsky gets it right.

Bobad, when you say that the Palestinians have been more victimized by their own leaders than by Israel, you offer no proof. This is not true.

Keith, are you a right-wing Christian who supports Israel because of a biblical injunction?
I think it's only fair to ask this. You don't sound to me as though you are Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:38 AM

""What would you have had them do? Go back after all that to the 1948 UN Resolution borders and then sit and wait for all their nice new neighbours to have another go? Oh, come on!...""
That was then, this is now; 65 years later.
So take a look at the size of Israel today, and compare with the twominiscule areas to which are confined the Arabs who used to occupy most of it.
Add in the fact that Israel has been annexing the larger of the two, considerably reducing the Arab land without authority or the excuse of conquest.
Some redress of balance is essential if the Palestinians are not to be squeezed out of existence, wouldn't you agree.

Of course I would agree. I have condemned the Israeli expansionism a dozen times here ~~ tho for some reason Jim will never listen. But I was replying, Don, to this of yours ~~


The last time any firm borders were established by anyone who possessed the authority to do so, was 1948.
The decision was made, and since that time Israel has gained territory by conquest and is continuing to do so by annexation.
Why should you NOT accept reversion to THOSE borders?
After all they are, whoever has or has not accepted them, the last legally established ones.

to point out that it was the refusal of the neighbouring Arab states to accept these borders when the new Israeli state was perfectly prepared to do so, that is responsible ultimately for the present lamentable behaviour by the Israelis -- coupled, of course, with the refusal of those very Arab states, enormous as they are, to integrate those Palestinian Arabs who fled to them at the time as a result of their actions, not those of the Israelis; in marked contrast to the way that the minute state of Israel has integrated a vastly greater number of Jewish immigrants over the period.

It may all be a long time ago, Don; but all but two of those Arab states have insisted thruout those years, and up to the present, that they are still at war with Israel; and have only been deterred from acting on this insistence by the knowledge that they could now, & at any time in the interim, have got their arses kicked a good bit harder than they did 65 years ago, by the then small but now maybe just a bit more powerful & knowing lot which they tried, so pathetically, to bully then.

Look at the situation over the whole of that 65 years, right up to the present, Don, if you hope to achieve any sort of balanced view of the present unfortunate situation; and put the original blame for it where it properly belongs.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:00 PM

Substantiate that "Israel denies that" outweighs all evidence to the contrary.
I can not. It is not true and I would never claim it.
If Israel does deny an accusation, evidence is required.
So far you ask us to believe so called eye witnesses when numerous cases of blatant lying make them highly equivocal.

Substantiate that ""All the motions were proposed by nasty Islamic Republics and vicious little dictatorships who outnumber the decent democracies,"" (Islamophobia clearly displayed)

Here are hundreds of examples from UNHCR.
Note the sponsors, and click to see who voted yes.
http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.3820041/#4th

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:21 PM

General Assembly

"By 2007, Israel was the subject of 76% of country-specific General Assembly resolutions,[87] 36% of resolutions from the Human Rights Council[88] and 7% of the Security Council resolutions.[89]

The automatic majority enjoyed by the pro-Palestinian resolutions was described in the following terms:


Tal Becker, legal advisor to Israel's permanent mission to the UN, visualizes this anti-Israel voting bloc as a series of "concentric circles." The smallest of the circles is the core of twenty Arab nations that constitute what is known as the "Arab group" which initiates the harshest condemnations of Israel. These countries are part of the larger fifty-six-member "Moslem group", all of whom can be counted on to consistently support anti-Israel resolutions. These fifty-six nations represent part of the Non-Aligned group of 115 largely third-world nations that formed during the Cold War and generally have voted as a group independent of Soviet or U.S. influence. And an even larger circle, considered the standard lineup against Israel, is composed of the 133 members of the G-77, which includes all of the developing countries.[90]

A few countries have consistently supported Israel's actions in the UN, such as the United States of America and the states of Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and Palau all of which are associated states of the U.S. Recently Australia, under the leadership of John Howard, and Canada, under the leadership of Stephen Harper, have also supported Israel at the UN.

Many European countries usually adopt a neutral stance, abstaining from the ongoing condemnations of Israel and supporting the foundation of a Palestinian state. Such countries include France, Russia, and Germany. "

"Regional Groups

The United Nations Regional Groups were created in 1961. From the onset, the majority of Arab countries within the Asia group blocked the entry of Israel in that group. Thus, for 39 years, Israel was one of the few countries without membership to a regional group and could not participate in most UN activities. On the other hand, Palestine was admitted as a full member of the Asia group on April 2, 1986.[note 1]

In 2000, Israel was admitted to the Western European and Others Group (WEOG) but Israel's membership is limited to activities at the UN's New York City headquarters. Elsewhere, Israel is an observer, not a full member, in WEOG discussions and consultations. Therefore, Israel cannot participate in UN talks on human rights, racism and a number of other issues.[100][101] The Human Rights Council meets in Geneva, UNESCO in Paris."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM

Substantiate ""Egypt is worse"" and ""Syria is worse"" (MY, you really don't like those ""nasty Islamic Republics, do you?"", and explain just how you see that as a justification of anything Israel does to Palestinians or its indigenous Bedouins.

I provided extensive substantiation of the worse status of Bedouin in Egypt, and of Syria's worse invasion and occupation of Lebanon, and that Assad kills a thousand Arabs a month.

I do not claim it as justification.
I point it out to show how you people swingle out Israel for criticism while carefully ignoring the far worse abuses from the surrounding countries.

I point it out to put Israel alleged shortcomings into perspective.

I point it out to show your irrational prejudice against the people of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM

Stringsinger, I do not believe that my race or my religion should be an issue and I resent your line of questioning.


Keith, are you a right-wing Christian who supports Israel because of a biblical injunction?
I think it's only fair to ask this. You don't sound to me as though you are Jewish.

I do not believe that anything before WW2 has any relevance to this issue.
I am not Jewish.
I am an Anglican.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:44 PM

""Again is it because of the nationality of the victors, huh Don?""

FFS, climb down off that dead horse you fool, before it falls on you and hurts you.

I have lost count of the number of times I have answered that I have no quarrel with the people of Israel, but simply and solely with their murderous government and merciless military.

I am in a better position to question your motives.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:52 PM

Don, can you substantiate "murderous government and merciless military."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:07 PM

So Don, I give you one example of territory being annexed by the victors of war and there have been countless others throughout history. I do not say that this is a good or bad thing only that this is what happens when a country wages war on it's neighbours - realpolitik if you will. There is a lesson to be learned here - can you tell us what it is?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:11 PM

""So far you ask us to believe so called eye witnesses when numerous cases of blatant lying make them highly equivocal.""

That is a lie!

We ask you to consider the evidence of eye witnesses, not "so-called", that is the epithet you apply to those people, without evidence, so that you can make an entirely unsupported assessment (with the emphasis on the ass) as liars.

You have never, so that we might see for ourselves, linked to their ""numerous cases of blatant lying"", which of course, as Jim repeatedly points out are mostly made up by you.

We give you accredited sources! You paint them antisemitic.
We give you documented eye witness accounts! You paint them liars.
We give you Israeli witnesses! You ignore them.

And you have predictably, boringly and futilely just done the same again.

Must try harder.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:18 PM

""Don, can you substantiate "murderous government and merciless military.""

I don't need to Keith.

You know about the ongoing encroachment into the West Bank, which you refuse to discuss, while claiming Australia as germane to the issue.

If you could bring yourself to open eyes and mind at the same time and look at Gaza, you would see clearly a twenty first Century Concentration Camp.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:23 PM

""There is a lesson to be learned here - can you tell us what it is?""

Simple!

Upset the Israeli government, and if you are Arab or Muslim, they will never let up until you are crushed out of existence.

Even a bulldog or a Rotweiler will let go eventually. Not so Israel!

Well, you did ask!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:31 PM

"if you are Arab or Muslim,"

Well those are the neighbours who waged war on them, I'm pretty sure the outcome would have been the same had they been Christians or Druids.

BTW, nice way to slip in the Nazi allusion with your concentration camp comment - I'm sure it is much appreciated by those who had the pleasure to enjoy the hospitality of the real concentration camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:33 PM

Getting away from Keith and Boba's nonsense for a moment, into the real world, the following is the gist of Noam Chomsky's column. I know String gave a link, but I know also that Keith never reads them through.

""Gaza, which I was able to visit for the first time last October.
There violence is met by the steady resistance of the "samidin" – those who endure, to borrow Raja Shehadeh's evocative term in "The Third Way," his memoir on Palestinians under occupation, 30 years ago.
Greeting me on my return home were the reports of the Israeli assault on Gaza in November, supported by the United States and tolerated politely by Europe as usual.
Israel isn't Gaza's only adversary. Gaza's southern border remains largely under the control of Egypt's dreaded secret police, the Mukhabarat, which credible reports link closely to the CIA and the Israeli Mossad.
Just last month a young Gaza journalist sent me an article describing the Egyptian government's latest assault on the people of Gaza.
A network of tunnels into Egypt is a lifeline for Gazans imprisoned under harsh siege and constant attack. Now the Egyptian government has devised a new way to block the tunnels: flooding them with sewage.
Meanwhile the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem reports on a new device that the Israeli army is using to counter the weekly nonviolent protests against Israel's illegal Separation Wall – in reality an Annexation Wall.
The samidin have been ingenious in coping with tear gas so the army has escalated, spraying protesters and homes with jets of a liquid as noxious as raw sewage.
These attacks provide more evidence that great minds think alike, combining criminal repression with humiliation.
The tragedy of Gaza traces back to 1948, when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled in terror or were forcibly expelled to Gaza by conquering Israeli forces.
Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion held that "The Arabs of the Land of Israel have only one function left to them – to run away."
It is noteworthy that today the strongest support for Israel in the international arena comes from the United States, Canada and Australia, the so-called Anglosphere – settler-colonial societies based on extermination or expulsion of indigenous populations in favor of a higher race, and where such behavior is considered natural and praiseworthy.
For decades Gaza has been a showcase for violence of every kind. The record includes such carefully planned atrocities as Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009 – "infanticide," as it was called by Norwegian physicians Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse, who worked at Gaza's al-Shifa Hospital with their Palestinian and Norwegian colleagues through the criminal assault. The word is apt, considering the hundreds of children massacred.
Violence ranges through just about every kind of cruelty that humans have used their higher mental faculties to devise, up to the pain of exile.
The pain is particularly stark in Gaza, where older people can still look across the border toward the homes from which they were driven – or could if they were able to approach the border without being killed.""

I think I just substantiated the word "murderous" I applied to the Israeli government and the word "merciless", used by me to describe the IDF!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:36 PM

Chomsky should stick to linguistics where he has some credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:41 PM

""BTW, nice way to slip in the Nazi allusion with your concentration camp comment""

You Israeli apologists are either totally paranoid, or incredibly devious,....or BOTH!

There is no Nazi allusion here (except in your minds) since, as you already know, Concentration Camps were the invention of my own countrymen, the British, during the Boer War, and, like it or not Gaza IS a de facto concentration camp.

I deliberately avoided the G word, to which you would have had a valid objection.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:46 PM

""Chomsky should stick to linguistics where he has some credibility.""

There you go again, every eye witness a liar, or lacking credibility, even if he's a native, unless he supports the Israeli government's oppression of Palestine.

I'm tired of you and getting terminally BORED!

More tomorrow.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:51 PM

"There is no Nazi allusion here (except in your minds)"

Yeah right, just like the use of the term "holocaust". I believe all that has been thoroughly and sensitively covered by MtheGM in this and previous threads - you must have been absent for those lessons.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:59 PM

I think I just substantiated the word "murderous" I applied to the Israeli government and the word "merciless", used by me to describe the IDF!

No you have not Don.
Much of it is about Egypt.
The stuff about Cast Lead is the usual bollocks.
This from the author of the UN report.

In April 2011, Justice Goldstone wrote an op-ed in The Washington Post stating: "If I
had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different
document." In the op-ed, "Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war
crimes," Goldstone withdrew the report's most serious claim that the Israeli Defense
Forces intentionally targeted civilians during their operations in Gaza. The op-ed further
commended Israel's investigations into charges of abuse. As Justice Goldstone
concluded, "the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the UN
committee's report…indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of
policy."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:08 PM


""Don, can you substantiate "murderous government and merciless military.""

I don't need to Keith.

You know about the ongoing encroachment into the West Bank, which you refuse to discuss, while claiming Australia as germane to the issue.

Yes you do Don.
"encroachment" if justified at all, is not murder.
You need to substantiate why you describe Israel's elected government as "murderous."

"merciless" is vague, but it suggests breaking International Law of Armed conflict.
That requires substantiation.

If either claim were true, countries like Australia, Canada, Ireland, Denmark, Finland, EU, would not be on suuch warm, friendly terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:19 PM


You have never, so that we might see for ourselves, linked to their ""numerous cases of blatant lying"", which of course, as Jim repeatedly points out are mostly made up by you.

Yes I have.
I linked to reports of the faked massacre at Jenin, with all the eye witness accounts revealed to be blatant lies told by Israel's enemies for political purpose.
We have Stringsinger's lies in his OP.
I have previously provided evidence that no bodies were thrown off the Marmara, despite all the lying eye witnesses including nurses who reported it.
There have been faked casualties, a faked killing on the gaza border, and on and on.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:20 AM

I have no quarrel with the people of Israel, but simply and solely with their murderous government and merciless military.


The government is elected by the people of Israel.
The IDF is the people of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:09 AM

""Yeah right, just like the use of the term "holocaust". I believe all that has been thoroughly and sensitively covered by MtheGM in this and previous threads - you must have been absent for those lessons.""

God Almighty!       Would you Israeli apologists like to tell us how much of the English language we are still allowed to use without ruffling your super sensitive feathers?

You are so bloody paranoid, you see Nazis under every bush and Nazi allusions in every comment by anybody who isn't of that nationality I am not safe in naming, for fear you pounce on it with claims of antsemitism.

OK!! Gaza is an Israeli open prison. IS THAT BETTER?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:15 AM

""Goldstone withdrew the report's most serious claim that the Israeli Defense Forces intentionally targeted civilians""

I'd love to know why he changed his mind, when a whole bunch of Israeli soldiers reported exactly the same, which we posted and you ignored in an earlier Gaza thread.

What did AIPAC threaten him with, I wonder?   We've heard all this before. It's becoming a habit.

Don't like History?    OK rewrite it!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:29 AM

""You need to substantiate why you describe Israel's elected government as "murderous."   ""

Who do YOU think ordered the IDF into Gaza, ordered the shooting of civilians approaching the border, ordered air strikes which killed masses of civilians, ordered the destruction of Centuries old olive groves and the eviction without any support or compensation, of Palestinins in the West Bank, to make space for Israeli settlers?

You're biased to the max, but you're not totally stupid. You know damn well that huge numbers of innocent men women and children have died as a result of the above.

You know also, because it is incontrovertible public record, that every time Israel responds to an attack the kill rate is around ten Palestinians for every Israeli.

Still think "murderous" is too strong!   You would get quite a lot of argument!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM

"OK!! Gaza is an Israeli open prison. IS THAT BETTER?"

I'll agree that Gaza is a prison but the population is held captive not by the Israelis but by the avowed goals and actions of it's own "freely" elected government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM

""Yes I have.
I linked to reports of the faked massacre at Jenin, with all the eye witness accounts revealed to be blatant lies told by Israel's enemies for political purpose.
We have Stringsinger's lies in his OP.
I have previously provided evidence that no bodies were thrown off the Marmara, despite all the lying eye witnesses including nurses who reported it.
There have been faked casualties, a faked killing on the gaza border, and on and on.""

OK, Three instances.

Vague claims without detail don't add anything and ""on and on"" is nonsense.

You have three instances I can concede, and from those you extrapolate that no eye witness can be considered credible, and all must be lying.

The police forces of the World will be devastated when they hear that they've got to release all those criminals convicted on eye witness testimony.

You see Keith, that's what happens when you extrapolate from a stupid premise.

Logically you cannot, because one, or one hundred witnesses have turned out to be part of a conspiracy, simply dismiss witnesses entirely without examination of their individual evidence.

Nor can you separate witnesses into groups by whom they witness against.

The group with evidence damaging to Israel is no more, or less, likely to be truthful than any other group.

So, logic demands that you examine their evidence and attempt to check its veracity, rather than dismiss it out of hand as "lies", "anti Israel", or "antsemitic".

This you have not done at any time in this discussion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:06 AM

As well as Egypt and the Arab League, that prevents the Palestinian Muslims from settling in other Arab nations, as the GREATER NUMBER of Jewish Arabs were resettled in Israel after 1948... "without any support or compensation" from the countries they were evicted from.


And from the percentage of Arab Muslims REMAINING in Israel ( as opposed to the percentage of Jews in Arab nations) I think that "eviction" is a word YOU need to justify before using. MORE Muslims STAYED in Israel than left.

Jews were driven out of Arab nations BY THE GOVERNMENTS. Arab Moslims left Israel BY CHOICE, after the Arab League promised them the entire land "Afeter the Jews are driven into the sea."


And how about the Jews "removed" from the West Bank between 1948 and 1967? Were is THEIR compensation? Or is it your contention that Palestinian Jews get nothing, when demanding the Palestinian Muslims get everything they want? What about the Palestinian Christians, driven out by the Muslims?

Your focus demonstrates a bias.


I ask again:


As I said, what portion of the REMAINING Mandate Palestine territory should be given to the Arab Muslims after they got over 77% in the form of a Jew-Free Arab Palestinian Homeland of TransJordan?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:10 AM

""The government is elected by the people of Israel.
The IDF is the people of Israel.""

Sophistry! And very weak sophistry at that.

The government no more does what the people want than our own does.

The army is an organisation recruited from among the people, which does exactly what the government (not the people) tells it to.

Nice to see you squirming a bit.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:34 AM

"God Almighty! Would you Israeli apologists like to tell us how much of the English language we are still allowed to use without ruffling your super sensitive feathers?"

Thin ice, Don! Remember that the following statement

"it is recognised that trying to equate Israel with Nazi crimes identifies an antisemite"

is from an EU body, the EUMC [European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism & Xenophobia], not from any organisation with any sort of Jewish bias. "Holocaust" is not a term to be used in this context, as Bobad notes above that I have pointed out on more than one occasion previously. It is a word with emotional overtones which one does not need 'super-sensitive feathers' to be 'ruffled' in order to recognise. I am, frankly, astonished & disappointed at your having employed it. Not what I should have expected of you. And as for the insufferably inappropriate tone of offended resentment in the response from you which opens this post...!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:39 AM

Don,

"The group with evidence damaging to Israel is no more, or less, likely to be truthful than any other group.

So, logic demands that you examine their evidence and attempt to check its veracity, rather than dismiss it out of hand as "lies", "anti Israel", or "antsemitic".
"


And this ONLY applies to Israel, and NOT to Obama? YOU stated that MY actually having heard Obama state something was NOT valid, and required further proof before YOU would consider it worth looking at.

You are showing your bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:39 AM

... and 'concentration camp' is in the same category. We all know that it originated in the Boer War; but don't pretend you are unaware of the additional overtone it has acquired since then. It doesn't mean Pietermaritzburg and Bloemfontein any more; it means Auschwitz and Belsen, & please don't be disingenuous enough to pretend you weren't aware of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:46 AM

MtheGm, to be fair to Don I was castigating him for referring to Gaza as "a twenty first Century Concentration Camp" which I regard as a thinly veiled Nazi allusion just as is the use of the word "holocaust".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:47 AM

Sorry, cross posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:37 AM


The government no more does what the people want than our own does.

The army is an organisation recruited from among the people, which does exactly what the government (not the people) tells it to.

It is not recruited from among the people.
The people all do their share of service in IDF, and the government is freely elected by the people.

The enemies of Israel have to lie to create Israel's crimes, because it just does not commit real ones.
Only fools and bigots believe it all.

Not UK government or any other mature well informed modern democracy.
Not, Ireland, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Australia, the EU, ....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 01:57 PM

'you really don't like those ""nasty Islamic Republics", do you?'
.,,.
All v well to get knickers in a twist over Keith's use of this phrase; which perhaps indeed he might on reflection think maybe a bit ill-considered, esp as it was bound to elicit just such a knee-jerk pejorative reaction. But do you really think Muslim N Nigeria, where a 16 year old girl recently publicly received 100 strokes of the cane on the bare buttocks for the heinous crime of conceiving as a result of being raped, or Muslim Saudi Arabia, where adultresses [which has a wider sense than marital infidelity, meaning any out-of-wedlock copulation] may still be publicly stoned to death, to be 'nice' countries?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:16 PM

""It is a word with emotional overtones which one does not need 'super-sensitive feathers' to be 'ruffled' in order to recognise. I am, frankly, astonished & disappointed at your having employed it.""

Get this Mike! I did not use, and never have used that word in discussion, except when talking about its deniers.

I described Gaza as a concentration camp, fairly accurate I think, knowing that such camps were a Boer War invention of our own dear countrymen.

Perhaps I should have known Bobad would throw a hissy fit.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM

""And this ONLY applies to Israel, and NOT to Obama? YOU stated that MY actually having heard Obama state something was NOT valid, and required further proof before YOU would consider it worth looking at.""

That was intended to check your veracity (not Obama's), by asking for a link to the speech (I'm assuming that you weren't reporting private conversations), so that I could decide to accept or reject it.

You would have reason to climb on your high horse, had I simply said "Other claims from you in the past have turned out to be rather variably true, so I don't believe you", which is what Keith is doing by ignoring the links we do supply and blanking the witnesses.

Check it out for yourself. You'll find it's true!   But that's not what you want to find, is it?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:32 PM

"Perhaps I should have known Bobad would throw a hissy fit."

Oh don't be such a drama queen Don, I am only trying to sensitize you to the sensitivities of the Jewish community in general and of other non-Jews like myself who otherwise sympathize with them, to the terminology of one of the most sordid chapters of modern history. A sizable percentage of the civilized world seems to be aware of the implications associated such usage - I am surprised that you are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:17 AM

Indeed, Don, you did not use that word, so apologies so far as that goes. You will perhaps gather I suspected this to be the case on second thoughts, which was why I added the rider about the other phrase, which, whatever may have been its origins, is just as unacceptable, and for similar reasons. After all, 'holocaust' didn't always mean killing lots of Jews in nasty ways; it originally meant a large & particularly elaborate form of sacrifice to the gods; but you obviously agree that it has, by its later associations, come to be inapplicable in that particular: likewise 'concentration camp'' no longer primarily [or even by association more than remotely] refers to where the British banged up the Boer civilians. So my horror & disappointment at your use of it in this context, and my contempt for your sarcastic and irritably dismissive animadversions about 'ruffled feathers' & accusations of our attempts to pre-empt the English languages to our own use, remain as I previously expressed. I really think you should withdraw that assiciative phrase with more grace than you have done thus far.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 03:24 AM

The Gatekeepers (film review)

When the final credits began rolling, the audience in the sprawling arthouse theatre sat on, in silence. Dana Rimon, a 23-year-old student, said she felt a "deep need to see the credits in fall, just to double-check that the former head of Shin Bet [the Israeli internal security agency] was actually speaking and I hadn't imagined the whole thing."
Rimon said that she had deliberated for weeks before going to see The Gatekeepers, the Oscar-nominated documentary about Israel's security establishment. She had recently finished her service in the army, where she worked at a training base in the southern West Bank. The film, she worried, would make her feel guilty. Her family urged her to leave well enough alone, but in the end curiosity got the better of her. "I guess I'm glad I came, but I still feel a little shocked, a little breathless," she said. "It was like somebody took over the bodies of all our big military heroes and put some left-wing person there."
Less than a mile away from the Cinemateque theatre in Tel Aviv was the Kiriya, Israel's military headquarters.
Rimon pointed at the towers and helicopter pads. "I can't imagine a movie that would be more subversive to the army guys over there than this one."
Despite its Oscar nomination and glowing reviews in the press, The Gatekeepers has had a limited release and has been shown on public television only once, in a late-evening slot. The documentary weaves the recollections of six former heads of the Shin Bet into a narrative of Israel's military occupation of the Palestinian territories dating back to 1967. In startling detail and honesty,
the men who authorised targeted assassinations against Palestinian terrorists and recruited collaborators to spy on their families and communities tell of the difficulty of having to live with their choices and the doubts that have
arisen since they left their posts.
Dror Moreh, the director, says that he didn't set out to make a movie that challenged Israel's deeply held military ethos. "The timing was right," he says.
"They wanted to come forward and speak of their own accord."
"I knew I had dynamite in my hands," Moreh told the left-wing daily, Haaretz.
In other interviews, the director has admitted that he had no idea that his subjects would emerge with a shared conviction that Israel's continued military occupation of the Palestinian territories will lead neither to peace nor to a longstanding political solution for the state of Israel.
"The idea that we shouldn't be in the West Bank, that Israel even has an occupation of the Palestinian people is a very fringe, left-wing idea in Israel," says Daniel Levy, a 31-year-old lawyer in Tel Aviv. "If you said it at my dinner table my dad would accuse you of being a socialist lefty and probably ask you to leave."
Still, Levy went to see the movie with his 74-year-old father David on a Saturday afternoon last month. When the two emerged the elder Levy said he was "more sad then angry. When you hear what they have to say you wonder 'How could we have let them lead us down this path?' I just don't know."
Haaretz has reported that Israeli diplomats are trying to deal with the fallout from the film, which remains popular on the foreign film circuit. In cables sent back to the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem, the diplomats debated whether the film was at its core anti-Israel. The newspaper noted that the same debate was not happening inside Israel.
David Levy recalls one particularly vivid moment in the film, when Ami Ayalon, who ran the Shin Bet from 1996 to 2000, looks straight into the camera and quotes the military theorist Carl von Clausewitz: "Victory is the creation of a better political reality."
"Why couldn't he have said it when he was still head of the Shin Bet?" Levy says. "Then maybe more people would have listened."
The Gatekeepers is released on April 12

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 03:33 AM

The full script
The Gatekeepers: In New Film, Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs Denounce Occupation, Compare Israel to Nazi Germany
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/1/29/the_gatekeepers_in_new_film_ex
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:35 AM

The film does not support a single one of the lurid accusations made against Israel, nor does it contradict in one single way Israel's version of events.

So, it is irrelevant to all the discussion that has gone before, and is just another gut-wrenching change of subject by Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 05:16 AM

"The film does not support a single one of the lurid accusations made against Israel, "
You are lying - it talks about summary executions without trial, dropping bombs on occupied houses, planning to blow up The Dome of the rock.
Far from not contradicting Israel's version of events - Israel is now in the middle of carrying out a damage limitation exercise
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/CANDIDLY-SPEAKING-Israel-bashing-in-Israeli-movies
The fact that it was Shin Bet officers revealing the facts confirms them as having happened.
To claim, as you have done that the film contains no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of Israel is a lie
To claim that there has been no evidence presented exposing Israeli atrocities is a lie.
To describe the United Nations as a Muslim Plot is fanaticism in the extreme
To lie in public is stupidity in the extreme.
To try to claim a film containing interviews with Israeli secret agents who admit they have violated international laws and is against Israel's interest as thread drift is utterly pathetic and confirms your non-existent case as being just that.
"So, it is irrelevant to all the discussion"
Keep up the good work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 05:37 AM

But Jim, that film by all accounts would appear to support Keith's contention that it is not the people of Israel, but their political & military leaders, against popular opinion, who are responsible for the controversial and unacceptable Israeli actions; which Don keeps attempting to scout with the reiterated assertion that the government was elected by the people. The film seems to confirm a high degree of popular dissent from the governmental and military position, doesn't it?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 05:49 AM

Does it implicate IDF in Sabra/Shatila?
No.
Does it challenge Israel's version?
No.
Cast Lead?
No.
Anything else we have discussed in this thread?
No.
Not one single thing.
A shrieking, gut-wrenching change of direction.
A familiar one of your lost argument tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 06:23 AM

"that film by all accounts would appear to support Keith's contention that it is not the people of Israel, but their political & military leaders"
Has this ever been claimed otherwise?
THE ARGUMENTS ON THESE THREADS HAVE BEEN EXCLUSIVELY ABOUT ISRAELI MILITARY AND POLITICAL POLICY, WHICH HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD SINCE JUST AFTER IT WAS OPENED - nowhere has anything been discussed about the people of Israel as a whole other than the actions of some fundamentalist extremists.
In fact it is Keith (and others) have attempted to implicate all Jews in these crimes by describing those who oppose what has happened as "anti-Semitic"
The statements in the film are from a handful of Shin Bet officials, who should know better than they what crimes have been committed.
The film - yet to be released, reflects the official reaction of all who get in their way and points out that they believe it not to be in the interest of Israel.
BTW - I hope nobody is assuming that my link is the script of the film, which is an hour plus documentary – it is the full text of the interview I linked headed "The Gatekeepers: In New Film, Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs Denounce Occupation, Compare Israel to Nazi Germany"
The film has yet to be released generally
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 06:48 AM

"A shrieking, gut-wrenching change of direction"
A shrieking, gut-wrenching lie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM

"Does it implicate IDF in Sabra/Shatila?
Does it challenge Israel's version?
Cast Lead?
Anything else we have discussed in this thread?"
Just in case you have forgotten - none of these were part of the original posting - you desperately attempted to the discussion by calling "thread drift" when others brought in Israel's history of war crimes, then joined in heartily by denying that they had never happened and it was all an anti-Semitic or Muslim plot - even accusing the UN of same.
You drifted even further afield by attempting to justify atrocities by pointing to those of other countries and even brought in Ware Rubbish Disposal to justify the forcible eviction of Bedouins to a poisonous dump.
Your somewhat hysterical attempts to censor discussion on proof of Israeli atrocities by those who carried out some of those atrocities   
is a comforting sign that it has struck home - keep up the good work.
As for "losing" anything - you have yet to prove one single thing false here - you haven't even tried - as you said "denial means nothing without proof" (or words to that effect)
As the man in 'Round Midnight said - "your notes are fine, but where's your story?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:06 AM

"Other claims from you in the past have turned out to be rather variably true,"

You have made a claim. It is up to YOU to give some examples of this. I can find statements of YOURS that I do not agree with- DOES THIS PROVE YOU HAVE LIED?





In the other thread, I stated that I had eyewitness evidence that another poster YOU called a liar was in fact correct. YOU DENIED IT'S VALIDITY.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 09:45 AM

there is no legitimate justification for this.


More atrocities by Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:07 AM

"there is no legitimate justification for this."
Or these
Jim Carroll

UN report says Israel could be prosecuted for war crimes over settlements
UN human rights investigators called on Israel on Thursday to halt settlement expansion and withdraw all half a million Jewish settlers from the occupied West Bank, saying that its practices could be subject to prosecution as possible war crimes.
5:09PM GMT 31 Jan 2013
A three-member UN panel said private companies should stop working in the settlements if their work adversely affected the human rights of Palestinians, and urged member states to ensure companies respected human rights.
"Israel must cease settlement activities and provide adequate, prompt and effective remedy to the victims of violations of human rights," Christine Chanet, a French judge who led the inquiry, told a news conference.
The settlements contravened the Fourth Geneva Convention forbidding the transfer of civilian populations into occupied territory and could amount to war crimes that fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC), the United Nations report said.
"To transfer its own population into an occupied territory is prohibited because it is an obstacle to the exercise of the right to self-determination," Chanet said.
In December, the Palestinians accused Israel in a letter to the United Nations of planning to commit what it said were further war crimes by expanding Jewish settlements after the Palestinians won de facto UN recognition of statehood, and said Israel must be held accountable.
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Israel has not cooperated with the probe set up by the Human Rights Council last March to examine the impact of settlements in the territory, including East Jerusalem. Israel says the forum has an inherent bias against it and defends its settlement policy by citing historical and Biblical links to the West Bank.
Israel's foreign ministry swiftly rejected the report as "counterproductive and unfortunate". The Palestine Liberation Organisation welcomed its "principled and candid" findings.
"The only way to resolve all pending issues between Israel and the Palestinians, including the settlements issue, is through direct negotiations without preconditions. Counterproductive measures – such as the report before us, will only hamper efforts to find a sustainable solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict," Israel's Yigal Palmor said.
"The Human Rights Council has sadly distinguished itself by its systematically one-sided and biased approach towards Israel. This latest report is yet another unfortunate reminder of that."
But Hanan Ashrawi, a top PLO official told Reuters: "This is incredible. We are extremely heartened by this principled and candid assessment of Israeli violations ... This report clearly states the Israel is not just violating the 4th Geneva Convention, but places Israel in liability to the Rome Statute under the jurisdiction of the ICC."
The independent UN investigators interviewed more than 50 people who came to Jordan in November to testify about confiscated land, damage to their livelihoods including olive trees, and violence by Jewish settlers, according to the report.
"The mission believes that the motivation behind this violence and the intimidation against the Palestinians as well as their properties is to drive the local populations away from their lands and allow the settlements to expand," it said.
About 250 settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been established since 1967 and they hold an estimated 520,000 settlers, according to the UN report. The settlements impede Palestinian access to water and farm lands.
The settlements were "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination," it said.
Chanet said: "To maintain such a system of segregation you need strict police and army control. It means a lot of checkpoints, violation of freedom of movement, no access to natural resources, demolition of houses and sometimes even destroying the trees."
After the General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians status at the world body, Israel said it would build 3,000 more settler homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem – areas Palestinians wanted for a future state, along with the Gaza Strip.
The UN human rights inquiry said that the International Criminal Court had jurisdiction over the deportation or transfer by the occupying power of its own population into the territory.
Chanet, asked whether the violations constituted war crimes that could be tried at The Hague-based court, said: "These offences are falling into the provision of article 8 of the ICC statutes. Article 8 of the ICC statute is in the chapter of war crimes, that is the answer."
The Palestinian Authority - despite its recently upgraded status - will have many procedural obstacles to overcome before it could argue this case in the Hague and prove Israel guilty of war crimes.
Source: Reuters and Staff

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9839853/UN-report-says-Israel-could-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-over-settlements.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM

Does the film implicate Israel in any of the lurid accusations from this thread?
No.
All the events portrayed have been known about since they happened.

Nothing in the film has any relevance to the original subject of this thread, or to any of the new subjects Jim changed it to when the original claims against Israel were shown to be groundless lies.

And now you want to discuss a film we can't even see yet.

No lies from me, just desperation from Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:30 AM

"there is no legitimate justification for this."

"The IDF was allegedly responding to stones which were thrown by some of the assembled mourners."

"The Israeli army said troops fired on Palestinians who threw firebombs at a guard post after dark on Wednesday near Tulkarm, in the northern West Bank."

"The Israeli army also reports that for a third straight day on Thursday, rockets fired from Gaza have struck southern Israel"

So, throwing stones at soldiers, firebombing a guard post and launching rockets at your neighbour are legitimate activities in your mind?


"The latest upsurge in violence comes days ahead of of a scheduled visit by US Secretary of State John Kerry to Jerusalem and Ramallah in an attempt to revive the peace negotiations that broke down in 2010."

Hmmm.....think there might be a connection there with peace loving Hamas wanting to demonstrate how willing they are to discuss peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:32 AM

Stringsinger.
More atrocities by Israel

You devalue the term.
No-one was even hurt.

We only have it from a local "activist" that anything happened at all.

"HEBRON, April 3, 2013 (WAFA) – Israeli forces Wednesday attacked a Palestinian funeral in Beit Ummar, a town north of Hebron, according to a local activist.

Yousef Abu Maria, spokesman of the Beit Ommar Popular Committee, told WAFA that Israeli forces attacked the funeral fired tear gas canisters and acoustic bombs at the Palestinians and chased the mourners, leading to confrontations. No injuries were reported."

http://english.wafa.ps/index.php?action=detail&id=22042

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:50 AM

TEL AVIV (Reuters) - U.N. peacekeepers in southern Lebanon have failed to report on Hezbollah guerrilla armaments as required, a senior Israeli official said on Thursday, arguing that Israel could not rely on foreign intervention for its security.
The remarks underscored the conservative strategies of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as instability rocks Israel's neighbors and world powers urge it to roll back its West Bank occupation to make way for Palestinian state.
"Under pressure, a multi-national force is like an umbrella that gets folded up on a rainy day," Yaakov Amidror, Netanyahu's national security adviser, said in a Tel Aviv University speech.
Iranian- and Syrian-backed Hezbollah, Amidror said, has been building its arsenal despite the 35-year presence of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) in its heartland.
"Has Hezbollah avoided bringing any kind of rocket, missile or other arms into southern Lebanon because UNIFIL is there?" he said. Israel believes Hezbollah has amassed 60,000 rockets, including 5,000 with heavy warheads capable of hitting Tel Aviv.
"Under their (UNIFIL) mandate, they cannot stop Hezbollah and confiscate its arms, but they can write a report. There has been no UNIFIL report about any weapon of any Hezbollah person since UNIFIL has existed," Amidror said.
As part of the U.N. ceasefire that ended Israel's inconclusive 2006 war with Hezbollah, UNIFIL's mandate was enhanced to include "assisting" the Lebanese army with keeping guerrilla "personnel, assets and weapons" out of south Lebanon.
UNIFIL spokesman Andrea Tenenti said that since 2006, the U.N. peacekeepers had "not witnessed the entry of any illegal weapons into the UNIFIL area of operations in south Lebanon".
While the border is largely quiet, Israel fears Hezbollah could pound it with rockets in retaliation should it carry out long-threatened strikes on Iran's nuclear sites.
Israel also worries that Hezbollah could obtain advanced weapons, including chemical munitions, from Syria. But the militia has said its current capabilities are sufficient.
In their own breach of the 2006 truce, the Israelis have regularly sent warplanes on surveillance flights over Lebanon.
Israel withdrew from south Lebanon in 2000 after 22 years of occupation, and from the Gaza Strip in 2005 after 38 years of occupation. Armed threats from Hezbollah in the former, and Palestinian Hamas Islamists in the latter, have been cited by Netanyahu as justifying his reluctance to give up the West Bank.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, the Hamas rival who governs in the West Bank, has accused Israel of sabotaging diplomacy by peppering the territory with Jewish settlements and holding up funds for his U.S.-backed administration.
The Israelis question Abbas's ability to govern long-term.
"If there aren't the appropriate security arrangements, it would be better for Israel to go without an accord (with the Palestinians) than to have an accord that will endanger its security and could bring about a situation in which in the next war, Israel will lose," Amidror said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:06 AM

""-snip- likewise 'concentration camp'' no longer primarily [or even by association more than remotely] refers to where the British banged up the Boer civilians. -snip-""

I can understand that more needs to be said in your case Mike, but I've scant concern for Keith's and Bobad's determination to be offended on behalf of groups to which they do not belong.

You will recall, I'm sure that this phenomenon had a thread of its own not long ago, and it was decided that it wasn't productive of much goodwill, even from those on whose behalf they profess to act.

Concentration camps were newsworthy in Russia, North Vietnam, Cambodia and a host of other countries around the world and named as such in various Media, over a 68 year period, without any adverse comment, so once more we have this "special case" for one country.

How long does that go on?......100 years?......1000 years?.......100000 years?

I meant what I said. Perhaps the way forward is to publish a list of these words and phrases which, in what I see as a double standard, English speakers must never utter in any referrence to Israel and Israel alone.

I am accused of demanding that Israel conform to standards I don't seek from others (which is, incidentally, a lie). Is this not the reverse?

I don't even feel safe in mentioning the word "Jew" on this forum, having had the simple use of the word categorised by the "offended" pair, as anti semitism.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:15 AM

I am not offended Don.
I do question why you single out Israel for attack when there are so many states more deserving who are carefully ignored.
Syria has killed seventy thousand Arabs including children in just two years.

It does seem irrational.
I am curious, but not offended.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:27 AM

""But Jim, that film by all accounts would appear to support Keith's contention that it is not the people of Israel, but their political & military leaders, against popular opinion, who are responsible for the controversial and unacceptable Israeli actions; which Don keeps attempting to scout with the reiterated assertion that the government was elected by the people. The film seems to confirm a high degree of popular dissent from the governmental and military position, doesn't it?""

Mike, I simply cannot believe that you have just turned my whole input to this thread on its head.

THAT IS A VILE ACTION ON YOUR PART!

I have spent the whole of this thread emphasising that my argument is not, repeat NOT with the Israeli people, who I believe are being railroaded to destruction by ""the "murderous" government and "merciless" military""

Keith, on the other hand posted the following:-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:20 AM

I have no quarrel with the people of Israel, but simply and solely with their murderous government and merciless military.


The government is elected by the people of Israel.
The IDF is the people of Israel.

The first sentence, which I have highlighted, was a copy paste without attribution of my previous post, or rather a snippet out of context as is Keith's wont.

The rest is his comment, and I find it hard to believe that you have sunk so low as to try to reverse our positions.

That's it! I don't mind argument, but I draw the line at libel.

I am out of this cesspit of bigotry and I hope you all enjoy yourselves lying about each other.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:40 AM

"I do question why you single out Israel for attack "
Why do both of you continually defend war crimes by hiding behind the crimes of others?
"Does the film implicate Israel in any of the lurid accusations from this thread?"
I haven't seen the film yet - will probably do so next week
Can we rely on these claims - presuming you have seen it?
You have had the reports of the film - are the Shin Bet officers lying anti-Semites?
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FILM? If not, what are the bases of your claims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 12:21 PM

"You have had the reports of the film"
Before you ask how I know what to expect:
"The Gatekeepers: In New Film, Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs Denounce Occupation, Compare Israel to Nazi Germany"
"many states more deserving who are carefully ignored."
Remind us - which states have massacred 3,500 refugees?
Which have been carrying out massacres of civilians for 60 odd years?
Which states have driven nomads onto recognised poisoned sites in order to move Jewish (or any other) culture) settlers onto land occupied for centuries?
Which states have been continually accused of war crimes only to be let off the hook by a US veto?
Which states have deliberately targeted civilian homes claiming there might be terrorists in the neighbourhood?
Which states have used and are still using chemical weapons on non-combatant farmers?
Which states have had their own secret service fess up to these crimes - and much more?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:04 PM

I only got this one.
"Which states have been continually accused of war crimes "

Israel right?

I know the film does not implicate Israel in Sabra/Shatila or any of the other lies because it would be sensational news and headlines around the world.
But no.
It really is all lies, as all informed, balanced, reasonable people always knew anyway.

Ireland and all the other democracies will not be breaking off relations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:19 PM

I cannot explain or imagine by what confusion I was led so to misrepresent Don's position. My profound apologies to him, and to all followers of the thread.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

Jim,

"which states have massacred 3,500 refugees? "

Palestinians:
Jordan
Palestinians: How many Palestinians were killed by Jordan?
1 Comment

Husam Aldahiyat, Some dude.
You mean in Black September?

Arafat said 20,000. Real number is between 3,000 and 5,000.


And now you can make as many posts about that as about the Lebanese killing refugees in the camps...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:36 PM

"And now you can make as many posts about that as about the Lebanese killing refugees in the camps."
Why this has nothing to do with anything here
Can you produce links to your claims?
"I know the film does not implicate Israel"
No you don't and yes irt does, it is an expose of Israeli war crimes from the mouths of those who committed them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:45 PM

Jim,

YOU stated :
"which states have massacred 3,500 refugees? "



"Up to 15,000 Palestinian militants and civilians were killed, swaths of Palestinian towns and refugee camps, where the PLO had massed weapons, leveled, the PLO leadership decimated, and between 50,000 and 100,000 people were left homeless. Arab regimes criticized Hussein for what they called "overkill.""


http://middleeast.about.com/od/jordan/a/jordan-black-september.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:17 PM

I know the film does not implicate Israel in Sabra/Shatila or any of the other lies because it would be sensational news and headlines around the world.

Are you challenging that statement of mine Jim?
For the record please?

It really is all lies, as all informed, balanced, reasonable people always knew anyway.
Only you Lefties in your bubble believe all that shit.

Ireland and all the other democracies will not be breaking off relations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:01 AM

Jim, you have sensibly NOT challenged my statement "I know the film does not implicate Israel in Sabra/Shatila or any of the other lies because it would be sensational news and headlines around the world." because you know I am right, as ever.

That is also to accept that the film is irrelevant to all that has gone before on this thread.
Another of your changes of subject.
You said that was a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:24 AM

Not just a lie, you called it "A shrieking, gut-wrenching lie"

But I was right, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:22 PM

"I note that you avoid commenting on the UNHRC report and instead attack the medium that is commenting on it."

And I note that the interpretation by this article which is misleading by a body that is pressured by Israel and the U.S. to be accepted is part of the medium of dissembling.

This, from the Jerusalem Post, "A report that calls for boycotting West Bank settlement products and states that Israel could be brought before the International Criminal Court for Jewish building over the pre-1967 lines was approved Friday by the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva."

What UNHRC actually said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:32 PM

"The Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza have suffered more oppression from their own leaders than they ever did and ever will from Israel."

This is pure propagandistic twaddle. Prove this.

Operation "Cast Lead" and "Pillar of Cloud" would never have been attributed to any of the Palestinian leadership. They simply didn't have that weaponry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:25 AM

Not twaddle Stringy.
Look up what happened in Gaza after Hamas took over.

Jim, you have sensibly NOT challenged my statement "I know the film does not implicate Israel in Sabra/Shatila or any of the other lies because it would be sensational news and headlines around the world." because you know I am right, as ever.

That is also to accept that the film is irrelevant to all that has gone before on this thread.
Another of your changes of subject.
You said that was a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 09:31 AM

Look what happened in Gaza after the Israelis got through with it.
Look how the settlements in the West Bank have penalized Palestinians in their quest for Statehood.

Gazans are still suffering under Israel's despotism. The Christian Right doesn't care about them. They prefer to see Israel fulfill their warped interpretation of the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 09:58 AM


Look what happened in Gaza after the Israelis got through with it.

Things got a lot worse for Gazans when they left.

Gazans are still suffering under Israel's despotism.

No. Gazans are suffering under Hamas' fanatical Islamisation and war-mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:48 PM

"Remind us - which states .............have been carrying out massacres of civilians for 60 odd years?"

"some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims."

By Gunnar Heinsohn and Daniel Pipes, FrontPageMagazine, October 8, 2007

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 03:52 PM

Keith, you never answered my question either yes or no. Are you a fundamentalist Christian who has a biblical injunction through scripture to protect Israel? If not, then at least we can get that out of the way and proceed with the discussion. The reason I ask is that you don't seem Jewish to me.

Bobad, Front Page Magazine has the usual Right-wing suspects as authors and in a blistering condemnation of Norman Finkelstein aiding terrorists, that kind of editorializing makes me suspect the figures that they show. Anyone can make up statistics and I think that's what is being done here. It sounds like more "anti-Semitism" baiting redolent of Alan Dershowitz.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:28 PM

Frank, either Gunnar Heinsohn and Daniel Pipes present accurate figures or they don't. If the figures are accurate, it doesn't matter their affiliation(s). If you want to refute them, present a source for numbers which you can accept. Ad hominum attacks don't resolve anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 04:02 AM

"""some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims."""

So, what you are saying is that Israel can kill another 10,965,000 before they will be guilty of any crime?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:37 AM

"So, what you are saying is that Israel can kill another 10,965,000 before they will be guilty of any crime?"

Self defense is not a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:57 PM

i don't need to defend my position here. The magazine that these numbers come from
are populated by writers who have a decided bias in favor of Israel's misdeeds. It is not ad-hominem to declare that they have this bias. I have not attacked any one of them personally.
I reject their ideas, however, and because of their political agenda, reject their figures.

I don't think anyone is capable of coming up with figures that determine realistically how many people have died in any given war. It's Disraeli again. "There are lies, damned lies and there are statistics."

Every dictator in the world has claimed "self-defense" as an excuse for atrocities.
That's what the word "terrorist" means in the mouths of leaders of Syria, Israel, or wherever there are people enslaved or oppressed by dictators.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 04:13 PM

So, Frank, I sense that your reaction to the figures given is an visceral, emotional reaction rather than a reasoned one. I suspect that is true for most of the posts on your side of the issue.

I reiterate, either the numbers presented are true or they are not true. If true, the affiliation of the presenter is not an issue. You may hide behind platitudes if you wish, but a source for numbers in refutation is more meaningful.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 08:19 AM

Would you not agree John, that any such comparison, when used to excuse the killings by Israel, is irrelevant and invalid?

The fact that there are, or were, worse examples of killing cannot be justification of the current actions of anybody.

Also, the idea that everybody who has died at the hands of the Israeli government, the IDF, and their attack dogs the Phalangists, was klled in self defence is a gross and insupportable LIE!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 08:41 AM

Those figures are not posted as an excuse for anything - it is you who is trying to make them that. They are posted as a helpful response to Jim who was asking to be reminded about who has been massacring civilians for 60 odd years.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:07 AM

This source provided for proof are suspect at best. This is a source with an agenda which is not above ad hominem reporting stating that Norman Finkelstein is aiding terrorists.
A blatant lie. They are not a helpful response to anything because they can't be trusted.
As Al Franken has said about other stats, "They are pulling them out of their butts".

I don't have to defend by offering new impossible figures (it can't be done reasonably since no one knows how many casualties have occurred in any war) but to trust a source with an obvious agenda is futile. This source is hardly objective.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 12:04 PM

Don T.

Your question and the statements which follow are irrelevant to my post. My wrote only to point out the manner in which data is dismissed...not for its accuracy or inaccuracy, but "solely" for its source.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM

Sorry, post #1300 is from me.
JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:40 PM

OK I'll bite. Prove to me that these statistics are correct and not a lie.
Where do they come from? Sources please.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:21 PM

Frank, stop playing games. Try to stay on point. Nowhere do I or did I say that the the figures you dispute are accurate. I'll restate my position by recapping the posting history:
A. Bobad, posted some data and the source for that data on 4/12.
B. Stringsinger dismissed these data out-of-hand because he doesn't trust the source. He added that anyone can make up such data. But he did not actually refute them.
C. John pointed out that if data is true, the source for them does not matter. John did not take a position on the actual veracity of the data.
D. Frank (4/13) wrote that he didn't need to defend his position. But he did exactly that by attacking Bobad's source once again. His rejection of the figures did not come from empirical knowledge, but from dislike and distrust based on the politics of the source. He then hid behind a famous Disraeli quotation to bolster his rejection.
E. John suggested a better argument by Frank might be to provide data refuting Bobad's source.
F. Today Frank asked John to provide him with accurate statistics This is a red herring argument and he knows it.
G. John did not and does not know if Bobad's source is accurate, and never claimed to so know. John's only point during these three days is that Frank had not disproved the data by simply attacking the source.
H. Period...Finish!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:40 PM

Ah John, don't sweat the Stringsinger, this is the game he plays. Any data that refutes his prejudice is propaganda yet he shamelessly quotes his own propagandists, LOL.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 13 - 03:19 AM

Arab-Arab violence Iraq, mostly Sunnis killing Shia.
Reuters May1
Violence is still well below its height in 2006-07, but provisional figures from rights group Iraq Body Count put violent deaths in April at more than 400 - the highest monthly toll since 2009. About 1,500 people have been killed this year.

Over 200 killed in last week.

BBC May1
Nearly 700 children and young people were killed in the last five months.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 13 - 03:51 AM

Non Arab, Muslim-Muslim violence.
NYT April 27
Quetta, the city in western Pakistan that has become a killing ground for Sunni sectarian death squads that hunt Shiites. So far this year they have killed almost 200 people,

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 13 - 03:58 AM

Arab News April 27
A civil war pitting mainly Sunni Muslim rebels against the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad, a member of the Alawite sect, an offshoot of Shiite Islam, has killed more than 70,000 people.
In Iraq, Sunni-Shiite sectarian violence, which peaked in 2006 and 2006, killed tens of thousands.
This week, 215 people have died in a wave of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 13 - 04:18 AM

Same Arab News piece.
BAGHDAD: Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Al-Maliki pointed a finger on Saturday at the civil war in neighboring Syria for the return of sectarian strife to Iraq, as a five-day wave of violence has killed 215 people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 May 13 - 07:18 AM

""Ah John, don't sweat the Stringsinger, this is the game he plays. Any data that refutes his prejudice is propaganda yet he shamelessly quotes his own propagandists, LOL.""

Ah John, don't sweat the Bobad and Keith A, this is the game they play. Any data that refute their prejudice is propaganda yet they shamelessly quote Israeli propagandists, LOL.

And the evidence for that is scattered through every thread they post to, none more so than this one.

If you are going to castigate String for dismissing the source rather than the evidence, you might like to even handedly castigate the two acknowledged masters of the art as well.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 13 - 08:12 AM

What do you challenge Don?
Please be specific.
(I say you can challenge nothing I have posted.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 13 - 03:10 PM

Hard to believe this shit is still going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 13 - 02:49 AM

So nothing Don, as I thought.

Stringsinger, how can you doubt the stats. provided by Bobad when the story they tell is as true today as ever?
Look at my posts of yesterday, all quoting impeccable sources.
An Arab is a thousand times more likely to die at the hands of a brother Arab than by any Israeli.
Deny that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 May 13 - 05:46 PM

YOU, KEITH A***HOLE, HAVE BRANDED EVERY SOURCE OF EVIDENCE WE HAVE QUOTED AS LIARS OR ANTISEMITES, and your friend BoBad has backed you all the way.

The evidence is there for all to see, that YOU are far and away more inclined to attack the source and ignore the evidence than String or anyone else on this forum.

In fact, such action is your stock in trade to the extent that you have categorised as liars and antisemites, not only Arab and Palestinian sources, but Canadian hospital staff in Gaza and Israeli soldiers and human rights organisations.

NOTHING YOU SAY CAN BE TRUSTED, AND I SHALL IGNORE ALL FUTURE POSTS FROM YOU!

YOU ARE AN INCORRIGIBLE LIAR AND BIGOT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 13 - 06:01 PM

If I am a liar, produce one lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 May 13 - 10:02 PM

By Jim Miklaszewski and Andrea Mitchell, NBC News

Israeli warplanes launched airstrikes against targets inside Syria on Friday, U.S. officials told NBC News.

It's believed the primary target was a shipment of weapons headed for Hezbollah in Lebanon, they said. A senior U.S. official said the airstrikes were believed to be related to delivery systems for chemical weapons.

An Israeli spokesman in Washington said that Israel would not comment specifically on the reports but said that "Israel is determined to prevent the transfer of chemical weapons or other game-changing weaponry by the Syrian regime to terrorists, especially to Hezbollah in Lebanon."

White House officials referred all questions to the Israelis.

This would be the second time this year Israel conducted airstrikes inside Syria. In January, Israeli fighter jets attacked a convoy of sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles believed on their way to Hezbollah.

Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon publicly acknowledged the January airstrike inside Syria in a joint press conference with Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel in Tel Aviv on April 22. Ya'alon said any Syrian delivery of sophisticated weapons to rogue elements like Hezbollah would be a "red line" for Israel and "when they crossed this red line, we operated. We acted."

NBC News Senior Investigative Producer Robert Windrem and White House Correspondent Kristen Welker contributed to this report.

Related video: Syrian government used chemical weapons 4 times, rebels say

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 13 - 05:52 AM

So Stringsinger, are you going to make up a UN condemnation and start a thread about it again?
You could hardly make a bigger fool of yourself.

Are you going to comment on who is slaughtering Arabs and Muslims, and who is not?

Don, how is the search for a single lie going?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 13 - 09:53 AM

More recent Arab on Arab massacres outside Syria(70 000 and rising fast).
BBC today.
At least 30 people have been killed and dozens injured in two explosions outside a mosque in the Iraqi city of Baquba, north of Baghdad.

Police and medical workers say the bombs went off as people were leaving the Sunni mosque after Friday prayers.

Later, police said at least seven people were killed by a bomb at a Sunni funeral south of Baghdad.

Iraq has seen a sharp increase in Sunni-Shia sectarian violence in recent weeks.

On Thursday, at least eight people were killed when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a Shia mosque in the northern city of Kirkuk.

The mosque was being attended by relatives mourning victims of violence in the city the day before.

Hours before that, at least 12 people were killed in car bomb attacks on mainly Shia districts of the capital Baghdad.


Still doubt those Stats. String?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 May 13 - 09:27 AM

Ok, fine. You all can say anything about Israel that you like. If someone were to show up and snatch me and say, "We're going to drop you in the Middle East, where would you like to go?" In less than 30 seconds I would say "Israel."

I believe in free speech. I don't necessarily take it personally. God bless you all. But I'm going to Israel.

And people who say "the Jews," don't know the Jews. If you have even two in one room, don't bet on a consensus- on just about anything :-) You basically have to kill Jews to shut them up. And then it's too quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 May 13 - 09:41 AM

Ariel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:27 AM

"And people who say "the Jews," don't know the Jews."

Some of the leading activists who support the boycott, disinvestment and sanction movement in criticism of Israel are Jewish in their background.

Fortunately, Israel is undergoing criticism for its warlike and aggressive behavior by increasingly more Israeli citizens.

"We're going to drop you in the Middle East, where would you like to go?"

You wouldn't want to go to Palestine since you would probably be persecuted by the Irgun,
Mossad and the Israeli military.

I wish that Israel believed in free speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:46 AM

Oh no, that's where you're wrong. It so happens that I'm not going anywhere they don't know how to treat women :-) I'm not a cultural relativist in that sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:52 AM

It so happens that 77% of Israeli Arabs agree with you - they know how good they have it there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:33 PM

You wouldn't want to go to Palestine
Definitely not, but not because of Israelis!

I wish that Israel believed in free speech.
The only democracy worthy of the name in the whole region.
The only free media in the whole region.
The only free and independent judiciary in the whole region.
"the only free country in the Middle East and North Africa" Freedom House.
Why can you not be honest about it String?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:00 PM

Acclaimed author, Howard Jacobson (The Finkler Question), pens an amazing essay on the end of anti-semitism:

"It's official: thanks to Stephen Hawking's Israel boycott, anti-Semitism is no more"

The Independent

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 May 13 - 05:15 PM

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 May 13 - 08:22 PM

"Interesting" article? Hardly. Just more folks who think thay are oh so witty and clever and righteous and yet are unable to recognize & comprehend the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism.

Ring out ye bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 May 13 - 08:25 PM

It so happens that I'm not going anywhere they don't know how to treat women

Better look out for the Orthodox Jews, the Chasids & the Lubavitchers (among others)then, Lepak.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:43 AM

You would find it difficult to go to Palestine Lepak.

What passes for Palestine is a tiny strip of open prison camp on the coast and the West Bank where 500,000 Israeli settlers occupy 61% of the land, and 2.1 million Palestinians are squeezed into the rest.

68% of the UN's member countries recognise the State of Palestine as a sovereign entity, but in practical terms it doesn't and most likely never will exist.

It is, and seems likely to remain an occupied territory.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:42 AM

"The only democracy worthy of the name in the whole region.
The only free media in the whole region.
The only free and independent judiciary in the whole region.
"the only free country in the Middle East and North Africa" Freedom House.
Why can you not be honest about it String?"

Because these statements are false. It is no longer a democracy but a theocracy.
No free media, but propaganda. AIPAC makes that self-evident.
No free judiciary that imprisons Palestinians for years on flimsy and made-up charges or attempts to enforce their expansion by violent means.
A free country? For whom?

Why can you not be honest about it Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Susan
Date: 19 May 13 - 11:09 AM

don't like being addressed by my last name like that. You're being rude because you think I disagree with you. I didn't anything about whether I condone the actions of the Israeli government. Of course, I have much more criticism for the US government because I live here. All I said is that I'd rather live in Israel than elsewhere in the Middle East. There's no need to get mean or hostile. You are obviously coming up with your opinions from the vantage point of an outsider. You are arguing in the abstract. You have no direct experience on the matter in question.

When I attended Syracuse University, I used to have a little dog that I took everywhere with me. People always engaged me in conversation about how cute my dog was. One day I was walking with Tulip on Marshall St. and an Arab man asked me about my dog. While I was chit-chatting with him, a big Arab women rushed in, accused me of sleeping with this man and then proceeded to assault me and then she ripped my shirt off right there in the street! I became the victim of open, misdirected hostility from people with a different "moral" code, one that precludes civility apparently. My poor dog was terrified- torn between her instinct to bolt and stay loyal to me at the same time.

Don't attack me just because you're arrogant, ignorant know-it-alls who don't know half as much as you think you do.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Susan
Date: 19 May 13 - 11:16 AM

Excuse the typos. It's difficult to type on a phone. I'm done with this conversation anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:29 PM

1. So Susan - did you actually mean to say that the "moral code"[sic] of Arabs precludes civility?

2. If so, and you wish to see someone who is an arrogant, ignorant know-it-all, look in the mirror.

(PS: You hadn't supplied your "first name" nor had we any way of ascertaining that Lepak WAS your "last name". See also 2, above)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:30 PM

The only democracy worthy of the name in the whole region.
The only free media in the whole region.
The only free and independent judiciary in the whole region.
"the only free country in the Middle East and North Africa" Freedom House.

These are unchallengeable statements of fact String.
You saying they are not does not really signify anything.
It says a lot about you though.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:47 PM

"It says a lot about you though."

What does it say about me? That I desire justice for oppressed people? That I should accept your statements as somehow "gospel truth"? What more does it say about me?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Susan
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:48 PM

Greg F, That's right. The code is enforced on adherents and non-adherents alike. And if enforcement precludes civility, so be it. If you belong to a Jewish sect and you violate the code, you are ostracized, not stoned. No one expects you to convert either. They're not much different than the Amish.

I don't think I'll be tempted to come back to this thread. It's too damned long! It's nearly impossible to scroll down this far to read and post. Hey, why you start another thread and just call it "Jews Suck"?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:45 PM

Great. Now we have Susan, another Arabaphobe ( more universal than an Islamaphobe I guess ) bigot for Jesus. Or perhaps for Yaweh.

I wonder if she knows that there are Arabs of a number of religious persuasions besides Islam - or cares?

Who's not much different than Amish - Jews or Arabs?

Maybe I'll start a new thread entitled Ignorant, Uninformed Bigots (Like Susan) Suck.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:51 AM

What does it say about me? That I desire justice for oppressed people?
No, we all desire that.
That I should accept your statements as somehow "gospel truth"? I never knowingly post an untruth, but no.

It says that your hatred of Israel goes beyond reason.
There are many and varied things for which you could legitimately criticise Israel and the behaviour of its government, but that is not enough for you.
You have to invent wholly spurious ones.
You do not need to take my word for it.
Google up World democracies, and there Israel will be.
Google up theocracies, and there it is not.
Likewise free and independent media, judiciary, etc.

On the other thread you accuse it of genocide!
Beyond all reason and rationality.
You just hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:16 AM

Maybe I'll start a new thread entitled Ignorant, Uninformed Bigots (Like Susan) Suck.

Yes you should.
I can find not one thing in her posts that justify "Ignorant", "Uninformed" "Bigots" "(Like Susan) Suck."

It appears to be a baseless and nasty personal attack.
Mudcat would be a much better place without you Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 13 - 07:54 AM

I can find not one thing in her posts that justify "Ignorant", "Uninformed" "Bigots" "(Like Susan) Suck

And therin lies the problem, Keith. Question is whether you DIDN'T read her posts, CANNOT read her posts, IGNORED her posts, or do not comprehend the English language.

Oh, and bite me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 09:30 AM

I read them and found nothing, so help us out Greg and produce something from Susan that justified any of that bile.

I say you can't Greg.
It was just a baseless and nasty personal attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 May 13 - 10:46 AM

Keith, I regret that you are misinformed. You accuse me of hating Israel. I do no such thing. You trust Google, Hillary and the mainstream media for your evidential sources.

Actually, I hope that Israel will come to its senses and see how they have been corrupted by a war-mongering attitude that is enabled by reactionary government officials in the Obama, Senate and House as well as the Supreme Court of the United States which are basically dancing to the tune of the military industrial complex.

David ben-Gurion set an example originally (a non-theist, by the way) that was distorted by a Zionistic fervor which dehumanized the original occupants of the land.

Joffa oranges were one of the prizes internationally. Where are they now?

Keith, I suspect other motives for your misinformation. Again, is it a Christian, biblical bias that you harbor? If not, let us know.

Your blanket statements will convince no one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:43 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:47 AM

I have produced no misinformation.
It is all verifiable, and you can offer nothing objective against it.

I am not interested in biblical history or anything pre 20thCentury.
I do not regard the bible as history.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:04 PM

produce something from Susan that justified any of that bile.

Sigh.

Q: So Susan - did you actually mean to say that the "moral code"[sic] of Arabs precludes civility?

A: Greg F, That's right.

Q.E.D.

Now piss off.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:28 PM

Greggie boy,

Perhaps you want the entire quote:


From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:29 PM

1. So Susan - did you actually mean to say that the "moral code"[sic] of Arabs precludes civility?
....

From: GUEST,Susan - PM
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:48 PM

Greg F, That's right. The code is enforced on adherents and non-adherents alike. And if enforcement precludes civility, so be it. If you belong to a Jewish sect and you violate the code, you are ostracized, not stoned. No one expects you to convert either. They're not much different than the Amish.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:56 PM

"Hey, why you start another thread and just call it "Jews Suck"?"

Susan, you just don't get it. It's not about hating Jews. It is questioning the approach Zionism has taken which is leading Israel into a mullah type state with theocracy at the helm.

Keith, you still haven't answered my question. Are you a Christian who thinks that because Israel is mentioned in the bible, that supports your theories? A simple yes or no would suffice.

It would be nice to get that out of the way before anything you say could be considered credible.

So far, you have presented scant evidence to support your views compared to Jim Carroll who is quite articulate on this subject and sources are varied and valuable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:33 PM

Are you a Christian
Yes.
who thinks that because Israel is mentioned in the bible, that supports your theories?
No.
I told you I do not regard the bible as history.
I have no theories to support anyway.

My faith has no bearing on this, except it means you can be sure I am being honest.
I happen to admire what Israel has achieved in the face of great adversity and hostility from all its neighbours, and I think it is unfairly singled out for criticism while its neighbours get a free ride.

Remember that your view of Israel is not widely held in the free world.
Governments like Ireland, Denmark, the rest of the EU, Finland, Canada, Australia, ....... share my view of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:54 PM

Thanks Beardy. Keith only asked for a single example, which I provided, & but generously provided more!

I would have thought, however, Keith might like to answer for himself & is perfectly able to do so. Did he ask you to stand in for him?

(PS: any idiot could have scrolled dow 3 whole posts and found the complete quote for themselves, were they interested. Of course, you're not just any idiot.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 02:23 AM

Greg, her reply could have been challenged or questioned.
She did much to explain anyway.
There is no justification in it for "Ignorant", "Uninformed" "Bigots" "(Like Susan) Suck"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:57 AM

""My faith has no bearing on this, except it means you can be sure I am being honest.""

No such thing as a dishonest Christian?

I may split my sides laughing!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:06 AM

That is not what I said Don.
I was speaking for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 May 13 - 08:54 AM

Fascinatimg, Kieth!

Tarring all Arabs - Muslims and non-Muslims alike- with " the 'moral code"[sic] of Arabs precludes civility' according to you is neither bigoted nor ignorant.

That certainly sheds a great deal of light on your own "moral code" and your other postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:42 PM

""My faith has no bearing on this, except it means you can be sure I am being honest.""

Non sequitur anybody?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:46 PM

I say both sides bear blame for this situation, and you put only Israel's side ""for the sake of balance"".

Do you even have the slightest, most minimal understanding of what the definition of balance actually is, in the real world.....?

I don't THINK so!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:47 PM

"Five Yemeni men were beheaded and "crucified" this morning in the city of Jizan, while a Saudi Arabian man was executed in the south-western city of Abha.

Pictures today emerged on social media appearing to show five decapitated bodies hanging from a horizontal pole with their heads wrapped in bags.

The beheading and "crucifixion" took place in front of the University of Jizan where students are taking exams.

In Saudi Arabia, the practice of "crucifixion" refers to the court-ordered public display of the body after execution, along with the separated head if beheaded. It takes place in a public square to allegedly act as a deterrent."

Amnesty International

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:52 AM

I say both sides bear blame for this situation, and you put only Israel's side ""for the sake of balance"".
Do you even have the slightest, most minimal understanding of what the definition of balance actually is, in the real world.....?

Yes actually.
I too say both sides bear blame, but the difference is that I actually make specific criticisms of Israel.
E.g. their use of smoke in Gaza City I said was reckless, and possibly illegal.
E.g. I condemned them for not anticipating the Sabra Shatila massacre and for not stopping it sooner.

Also, I never object to others putting the Palestinian side of the story.
Only a bigot would object to the opposing case being put.
So, why do you object to anyone putting Israel's case Don??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:55 AM

""Five Yemeni men were beheaded and "crucified" this morning in the city of Jizan, while a Saudi Arabian man was executed in the south-western city of Abha.""

And this justifies anything that Israel does because........???

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:12 AM

""Also, I never object to others putting the Palestinian side of the story.
Only a bigot would object to the opposing case being put.
So, why do you object to anyone putting Israel's case Don??""

You never object?

You just dismiss evidence and call witnesses liars, bigots and antisemites. This and other threads are larded with such comment from you and Bobad, from your first hand experience of the situation, viewed from the UK and Canada respectively.

You both then quote the word of the Israeli zionist government, as if it were the word of God, inerrant and incontrovertible.

I don't object to you putting the Israeli case, just as long as we get some corroborating evidence, such as that which we have produced (with sources linked) from Palestinians, Israelis and Canadians who are or were right there in the middle of it.

That would at least tend to lend credence to Israel's denials.

You can't be arsed to supply links, or simply have no such links and make it up as you go along.

You have been repeatedly asked to source your assertions with such links, without once complying.

Why should anybody believe your rubbish?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:12 AM

It does not Don.
But it shows that there are many worse places than Israel for an Arab to live, and perhaps people should criticise them more, and Israel less.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:21 AM

Sorry Don, cross posted.
It is a lie that I do not supply links, but when I feel it unecessary, just google the text to find the source or ask and I will supply.

If you accuse Israel of something it denies, it is only you who can provide evidence.
What is wrong with critically examining the evidence offerred Don?
That is what I do.

And remember, in the real world, no-one believes all that stuff. Israel would be a pariah nation.
It is not, except with Islamic states and a few nasty dictatorships.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:25 PM

""If you accuse Israel of something it denies, it is only you who can provide evidence.
What is wrong with critically examining the evidence offerred Don?
That is what I do.""

Another LIE!

You never look at the evidence, you simply attack the source (which we always supply) and make, on Israel's behalf, a flat denial without supporting evidence of any description.

How can anybody examine this mythical evidence? YOU don't put any up for examination.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:32 PM

"How can anybody examine this mythical evidence? YOU don't put any up for examination."

This does describe most of what Don and Jim post. Unverified sources, or none at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:49 PM

anyone heard any good kerryman jokes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:11 PM

http://fionasplace.net/irishjokes/Kerrymanjokes.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:14 PM

You never look at the evidence, you simply attack the source

If the source is unreliable, so is the evidence Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:09 AM

Evidence becomes propaganda in the words of Israeli war supporters. This propaganda is totally unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:41 AM

Example?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:01 AM

Stringsinger's definition of propaganda is any evidence or opinion that refutes his position.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:07 AM

""This does describe most of what Don and Jim post. Unverified sources, or none at all.""

Unverified sources like the UN, B'tselem, Israeli soldiers, Canadian hospital staff in Gaza during Israeli attacks.

You are an ass BB. If you are going to lie, at least have the intelligence to pick a lie which can't be exposed by looking back a couple of days in this thread.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:02 AM

Don T

according to Bobert, the statement that something is reported in news sources is NOT valid evidence ( Unless it supports the Liberal Viewpoint)- take it up with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:33 AM

Them gol-danged libruls agin, eh Beardy? They're all out to getcha, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:36 AM

And then they will come after YOU.

Look at Russia in 1917-1918, and who survived of the Red leaders...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:02 AM

Muslim writer touts Israeli tolerance of minorities

"British author Dr. Qanta Ahmed spoke on Wednesday at the Menachem Begin Heritage Center in Jerusalem about the difficulties for minorities in Islamic societies and how Israel is the only country in the Middle East that tolerates them.

The persecution of Christians and other minorities is not getting the attention it deserves from the mainstream media, she said, adding that only a Muslim like her can get away with criticizing Islamic societies without being castigated as a bigot.

Israel does not fit the description of an apartheid state and instead, the media ignores the real problem, which is in the Muslim world, she said."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:04 AM

Source of above post: JPost

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:11 AM

Not that the Anti-Israeli bigots will bother to read this, but from the same article:

"Ahmed is a British sleep-disorder specialist working in New York State, whose parents came from Pakistan after moving there from India.

She visited Israel for the first time and gave a lecture at the symposium on Wednesday evening dealing with radicalization and minority persecution in the Islamic world.

The rise of political Islam that has been particularly pronounced as a result of the Arab uprisings is a threat to minorities and to Muslims who do not agree with the ascendent radical ideology, Ahmed said.

The persecution of Christians and other minorities is not getting the attention it deserves from the mainstream media, she said, adding that only a Muslim like her can get away with criticizing Islamic societies without being castigated as a bigot.

Israel does not fit the description of an apartheid state and instead, the media ignores the real problem, which is in the Muslim world, she said.

Illustrating this point, she said that it was only when she went to enter al-Aksa Mosque that she was asked to prove she was a Muslim in order to enter. She did so by reciting the shahada – the Muslim declaration of faith, that states there is one God and that Muhammad is his prophet.

"This is the first time I gave this talk in the Middle East and the only place in the region where I can give this talk and go home afterwards," Ahmed said. She added that the boycott of next month's President's Conference in Jerusalem by British scientist Stephen Hawking is misplaced as he never boycotted Pakistan despite its deplorable human rights record, including its persecution of minorities.

Dr. Michael Widlanski, an Arab-affairs expert and lecturer at Bar-Ilan University in Ramat Gan, also spoke, asserting that modern Muslim society is more intolerant than in antiquity. He said that because Muslims see the failure of the Islamic world when compared to the power and technology of the West, they look for scapegoats and this often affects relations with minorities.

He faulted US President Barack Obama for trying to charm the Islamic world along with America's enemies, just as he does with his country's voters. Widlanski explained that Middle Eastern culture puts importance on honor and shame, which can be used as tools in pressuring Arab governments.

Ahmed discussed her experience working in Saudi Arabia – the topic of her book, In the Land of Invisible Women: A Female Doctor's Journey in the Saudi Kingdom, which documented the rampant anti-Semitism in the country and lack of women's rights.

She said that Muslims she encountered saw Jewish intellectual prowess as particularly irritating.

Ahmed said that her writings have caused problems for her when traveling to Muslim countries and some have gotten angry and broken off contact with her.

Pakistan is particularly dangerous, she said. On her last visit she went as a doctor, not an author, and was surrounded by numerous military guards at all times.

It is the radical Islamic ideology that has "corrupted" Islam as it was practiced throughout history, said Ahmed, adding that the "the Muslim Brotherhood is a fictional manifestation of Islam."

To think that the golden age of Islam can be returned through jihad, subordination and a war on secularism, is a "distorted religion," she stated.

Radical Islam can be both violent and nonviolent, she asserted, and many feel that as long as there is no overt violence, these organizations are legitimate, referring to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which rules without resorting to the jihadist methods of al-Qaida-like organizations. But these nonviolent Islamists such as the Muslim Brotherhood are "no less malignant," Ahmed said."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:16 AM

So Beardy, now you're equating liberals & progressives and the political situation in the US of A with Russia in 1917-1918, and who survived of the Red leaders?

Are you really that delusional, or are you simply spreading horseshit around as per usual?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:21 AM

No, greggie boy,

I am saying that after you Liberals have been used as shock troops to destroy the present political system, you will be removed as being too dangerous to remain around- can't have the "Perfect System" you are supporting at risk of further change, or being held accountable for the results that it generates.


Maybe history is too subtle for you to understand...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:42 AM

Liberals have been used as shock troops to destroy the present political system

Thanks for the answer, Beardy - delusion and hallucination it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,The Birthday Boy
Date: 24 May 13 - 12:36 PM

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man
His enemies say he's on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He's the neighborhood bully

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive
He's criticized and condemned for being alive
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He's the neighborhood bully

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He's wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He's always on trial for just being born
He's the neighborhood bully

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He's the neighborhood bully

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
He's the neighborhood bully

He got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He's the neighborhood bully

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He's the neighborhood bully

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one's command
He's the neighborhood bully

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He's the neighborhood bully

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin', they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed
He's the neighborhood bully

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 25 May 13 - 01:06 AM

Well Happy Birthday! You're my boy. We have been around as long or longer than any people on earth. The Christian co-opted us, oddly enough it was not good for us. Then we get a new enemy, one that wants to turn our whole value system on it's ear.

You know what? Israel is a woman. You beat her one too many times, you wake up in a burning bed. No apologies.

But then what would I know? I was rooting for the IRA. From a distance.

Distance. Makes it all so easy to be opinionated.

I sat shiva for the 13th soldier. Peace will come.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 25 May 13 - 01:35 AM

Aye, it's a true song.

Mac and Shanahan 

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:45 PM

""The persecution of Christians and other minorities is not getting the attention it deserves from the mainstream media, she said, adding that only a Muslim like her can get away with criticizing Islamic societies without being castigated as a bigot.

Israel does not fit the description of an apartheid state and instead, the media ignores the real problem, which is in the Muslim world, she said.""

Is there any likelihood of you ever learning the difference between an opinion (without supporting evidence), which the above is, and an eye witness account corroborated by other witnesses, which the above most definitely is not.

Standard among our apologist group, equating apples with house bricks.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:59 PM

""He got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He's the neighborhood bully""

I was quite impressed by your poem until I got to the above, rather dishonest verse.

Allies don't come much bigger than the USA, and Israel is the biggest producer and exporter of cutting edge high tech arms in the Middle East. as well as the only nuclear power in the area.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 13 - 01:29 PM

"Is there any likelihood of you ever learning the difference between an opinion (without supporting evidence), which the above is,..."

It's all opinion Don, mine, yours, Jim's, Keith's, everyone's and evidence can be found to support anyone's opinion but I put more weight on the opinion of someone who comes from within the society of which they speak rather than some bigoted old folkies on an internet forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 02:51 PM

A true ally is one who will fight alongside you.
The Commonwealth had not ally prior to 42 despite the supplies.
Even Israel's supplies were not forthcoming until almost too late in 72.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 13 - 05:32 PM

Thank you Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:17 PM

bobad, I have spoken to many Jews in my life. Actually, I come from a long line of Jews on my mother's side. I know about propaganda and have been exposed to it for many years. I know how opinionated Jews can be on some issues. But Norman Finkelstein is a Jew who I deeply respect. Also, I believe that Naomi Klein has a Jewish heritage. Netanyahu needs to have a message sent to him by the boycott, disinvestment and sanction movement. They are the true defenders of Israel.

They know more about Israel then any of the pro-Israel pundits here.

I don't hear anything coming from these "authorities" that offer any solution to
the Palestine/Israeli conflict. Most of what they have to say is in denial of what is actually going on over there. The whitewashed speeches delivered by occasional speakers do not constitute a solution to the Mid-east problems.

Here's a solution. Give either Palestine its own nation or let Jews and Palestinians share equally politically in Israel. I don't see any pro-Israel pundits accepting anything like this. I think there are those who really enjoy fighting and accept the bloodshed that goes on day after day between the two countries.

The prognosis for the continuation of the State of Israel as it stands now is bleak.

World opinion is against her. It's a shame because at one time in Israel's history, Zionism, based on a socialist model was just and fair to the people who lived along side of them. Then Zionism became an expansionist movement and today is warlike and oppressive.

Actually, I would prefer to see real peace in the region including Israel. I don't hate Israel but just as in America, I think some terribly wrong decisions have been made. One has been seeking military solutions to animosities. The Irgun and Mossad are Israel's worst enemies. Netanyahu may be the G.W. Bush of Israel.

Things can only get worse by hard-nosed policies on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:05 AM

""but I put more weight on the opinion of someone who comes from within the society of which they speak rather than some bigoted old folkies on an internet forum.""

On that point, we can agree!

Which is why we have published accounts fom B'tselem, sundry Israeli soldiers, Israeli Human Rights organisations, and of course Canadian Hospital staff who were trying to repair the shattered bodies of Gaza civilians, while the shit was flying during IDF rampages.

These, of course, were not opinion, but eye witness accounts of victims, perpetrators, and those whose job is picking up the piesces and putting them together again.

You ignored, or denied those accounts, calling the witnesses liars, bogots and antisemites.

So much for ""I put more weight on the opinion of someone who comes from within the society of which they speak"".

Just as dishonest as all the rest of your stuff.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 13 - 01:22 AM

What do they tell us Don?
That Israel massacres civilians?
Of course not.
That it commits war crimes?
No.
That it is the middle of a violent region and has do what it can to safeguard its people?
Yes, and sometimes wrong decisions are made by individuals and by government, and that is true of any country.