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BS: Israel condemned by UN

Stringsinger 01 Feb 13 - 03:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 13 - 03:58 PM
Ed T 01 Feb 13 - 04:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 13 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,999 01 Feb 13 - 04:17 PM
pdq 01 Feb 13 - 05:12 PM
Jim McLean 01 Feb 13 - 05:13 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 13 - 07:57 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Feb 13 - 08:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 13 - 03:02 AM
GUEST,999 02 Feb 13 - 03:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 13 - 04:19 AM
Jim McLean 02 Feb 13 - 10:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 13 - 11:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Feb 13 - 07:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Feb 13 - 07:14 AM
bobad 03 Feb 13 - 09:50 AM
GUEST 03 Feb 13 - 01:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 13 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,kendall 04 Feb 13 - 03:44 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Feb 13 - 08:04 AM
kendall 04 Feb 13 - 08:26 AM
beardedbruce 04 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 13 - 09:17 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM
bobad 04 Feb 13 - 02:13 PM
bobad 04 Feb 13 - 02:21 PM
bobad 04 Feb 13 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Stim 04 Feb 13 - 03:00 PM
bobad 04 Feb 13 - 03:10 PM
kendall 04 Feb 13 - 03:19 PM
bobad 04 Feb 13 - 03:31 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Feb 13 - 03:54 PM
Greg F. 04 Feb 13 - 04:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 13 - 02:53 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 13 - 03:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 13 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 13 - 05:17 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Feb 13 - 05:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 13 - 05:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Feb 13 - 06:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 13 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,999 05 Feb 13 - 07:49 AM
kendall 05 Feb 13 - 08:00 AM
kendall 05 Feb 13 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 13 - 08:33 AM
Greg F. 05 Feb 13 - 08:42 AM
kendall 05 Feb 13 - 09:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 13 - 09:47 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 13 - 12:03 PM
Greg F. 05 Feb 13 - 02:50 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Feb 13 - 03:20 PM
beardedbruce 05 Feb 13 - 05:23 PM
Bobert 05 Feb 13 - 05:45 PM
Greg F. 05 Feb 13 - 06:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 13 - 09:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 13 - 02:58 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Feb 13 - 03:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 13 - 05:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 13 - 06:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 13 - 06:25 AM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 13 - 07:57 AM
Jim McLean 06 Feb 13 - 08:59 AM
bobad 06 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 13 - 09:23 AM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 13 - 09:28 AM
Greg F. 06 Feb 13 - 09:51 AM
kendall 06 Feb 13 - 11:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 13 - 01:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 13 - 02:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 13 - 02:29 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Feb 13 - 02:57 PM
bobad 06 Feb 13 - 04:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 13 - 04:20 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Feb 13 - 04:42 PM
Stringsinger 06 Feb 13 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,999 06 Feb 13 - 06:10 PM
pdq 06 Feb 13 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,999 06 Feb 13 - 06:19 PM
Greg F. 06 Feb 13 - 06:23 PM
bobad 06 Feb 13 - 06:59 PM
kendall 06 Feb 13 - 07:13 PM
Bobert 06 Feb 13 - 08:14 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Feb 13 - 08:33 PM
freda underhill 06 Feb 13 - 11:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 02:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 04:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 13 - 06:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 06:45 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 13 - 07:23 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 13 - 07:31 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 07:52 AM
beardedbruce 07 Feb 13 - 07:53 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 13 - 07:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 07:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 08:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 13 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 13 - 08:03 AM
beardedbruce 07 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 08:17 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 13 - 08:38 AM
beardedbruce 07 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM
Greg F. 07 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM
kendall 07 Feb 13 - 09:08 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 13 - 09:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 10:21 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 13 - 10:36 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 13 - 11:07 AM
kendall 07 Feb 13 - 11:22 AM
beardedbruce 07 Feb 13 - 11:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 02:15 PM
beardedbruce 07 Feb 13 - 02:30 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 13 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 03:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 13 - 03:23 PM
kendall 07 Feb 13 - 03:36 PM
Ed T 07 Feb 13 - 04:57 PM
Greg F. 07 Feb 13 - 05:55 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 13 - 08:15 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 13 - 08:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 13 - 03:12 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 13 - 03:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 13 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 13 - 05:15 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 13 - 05:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 13 - 05:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Feb 13 - 05:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Feb 13 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 13 - 05:54 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 13 - 06:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 13 - 06:18 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 13 - 06:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 13 - 07:00 AM
kendall 08 Feb 13 - 07:24 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM
Ed T 08 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM
Greg F. 08 Feb 13 - 08:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 13 - 09:36 AM
beardedbruce 08 Feb 13 - 09:39 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 13 - 09:42 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 13 - 09:45 AM
beardedbruce 08 Feb 13 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,999 08 Feb 13 - 09:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 13 - 10:07 AM
Ed T 08 Feb 13 - 10:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Feb 13 - 10:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 13 - 10:24 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 13 - 11:22 AM
kendall 08 Feb 13 - 03:00 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 13 - 03:23 PM
Ed T 08 Feb 13 - 03:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 13 - 03:50 PM
Stringsinger 08 Feb 13 - 06:40 PM
Stringsinger 08 Feb 13 - 06:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 13 - 02:40 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Feb 13 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 13 - 10:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 13 - 10:16 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 13 - 12:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 13 - 12:33 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 13 - 12:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 13 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,999 09 Feb 13 - 12:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 13 - 12:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM
pdq 09 Feb 13 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 13 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 13 - 01:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 13 - 02:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 13 - 03:05 PM
Jeri 09 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Feb 13 - 08:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 02:24 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 13 - 04:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 04:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 04:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 04:50 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 13 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,999 10 Feb 13 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 13 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 08:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 13 - 08:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Feb 13 - 09:00 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM
freda underhill 10 Feb 13 - 09:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,CS 10 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Feb 13 - 01:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM
Ed T 10 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 01:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Feb 13 - 01:49 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Feb 13 - 02:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 02:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 03:47 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Feb 13 - 03:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 04:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Feb 13 - 05:30 PM
freda underhill 10 Feb 13 - 06:06 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Feb 13 - 08:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 13 - 10:27 PM
GUEST,999 11 Feb 13 - 03:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,CS 11 Feb 13 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,999 11 Feb 13 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 13 - 04:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 13 - 05:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 05:31 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 13 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 06:12 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 13 - 06:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 06:44 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 13 - 08:02 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 13 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Feb 13 - 12:33 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 13 - 01:25 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 13 - 01:45 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 04:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 04:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 04:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 04:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 13 - 04:53 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 13 - 06:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 13 - 02:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 13 - 02:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 13 - 02:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 13 - 03:03 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 13 - 04:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 13 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 13 - 07:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 13 - 08:14 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Feb 13 - 12:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Feb 13 - 12:37 PM
Stringsinger 12 Feb 13 - 01:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Feb 13 - 03:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 13 - 03:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Feb 13 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,Jim Hawkins 12 Feb 13 - 06:39 PM
freda underhill 12 Feb 13 - 07:17 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Feb 13 - 07:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 13 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 13 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM
freda underhill 13 Feb 13 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 13 - 05:50 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 06:06 AM
freda underhill 13 Feb 13 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 13 - 06:24 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Feb 13 - 06:30 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Feb 13 - 11:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Feb 13 - 11:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 13 - 02:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Feb 13 - 06:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM
catspaw49 14 Feb 13 - 08:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 13 - 08:15 AM
Greg F. 14 Feb 13 - 08:51 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Feb 13 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,999 14 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 13 - 10:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Feb 13 - 10:54 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 13 - 11:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM
Stringsinger 14 Feb 13 - 05:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Feb 13 - 07:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Feb 13 - 07:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 13 - 10:11 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 13 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 13 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 13 - 05:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 13 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 13 - 06:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 13 - 06:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Feb 13 - 06:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Feb 13 - 07:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 13 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 13 - 08:51 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 13 - 08:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 13 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 13 - 09:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Feb 13 - 10:55 AM
bobad 15 Feb 13 - 11:10 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Feb 13 - 11:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 13 - 12:26 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 13 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Feb 13 - 03:41 PM
bobad 15 Feb 13 - 03:44 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Feb 13 - 04:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 13 - 06:04 PM
bobad 15 Feb 13 - 06:13 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 13 - 03:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 13 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 13 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 13 - 05:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Feb 13 - 06:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Feb 13 - 07:02 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 13 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 13 - 09:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 13 - 12:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 13 - 12:10 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 13 - 02:41 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 13 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Feb 13 - 10:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Feb 13 - 01:47 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 13 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Feb 13 - 04:31 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 13 - 06:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 13 - 06:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 13 - 07:15 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 13 - 07:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 13 - 07:35 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM
bobad 17 Feb 13 - 09:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 13 - 02:18 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 13 - 02:34 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 13 - 02:46 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 13 - 02:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Feb 13 - 05:50 PM
Stringsinger 17 Feb 13 - 06:48 PM
pdq 17 Feb 13 - 06:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 13 - 02:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 13 - 02:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 13 - 03:50 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 13 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 13 - 04:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 13 - 04:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 13 - 04:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 13 - 05:03 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 13 - 06:36 AM
Stringsinger 18 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM
Stringsinger 18 Feb 13 - 09:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 13 - 01:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 13 - 02:43 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 13 - 03:07 PM
Jim McLean 18 Feb 13 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,999 18 Feb 13 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,999 18 Feb 13 - 04:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 13 - 04:34 PM
Stringsinger 18 Feb 13 - 05:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 13 - 05:49 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Feb 13 - 04:37 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 13 - 06:22 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 13 - 06:30 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Feb 13 - 06:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Feb 13 - 07:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Feb 13 - 07:30 AM
bobad 19 Feb 13 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,999 19 Feb 13 - 12:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Feb 13 - 02:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Feb 13 - 04:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Feb 13 - 06:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Feb 13 - 06:31 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Feb 13 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Feb 13 - 07:12 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Feb 13 - 07:47 AM
beardedbruce 20 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM
Greg F. 20 Feb 13 - 09:22 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM
Stringsinger 20 Feb 13 - 12:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Feb 13 - 01:03 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 13 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Don Wise 20 Feb 13 - 01:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Feb 13 - 01:47 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Feb 13 - 05:39 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Feb 13 - 06:49 PM
bobad 20 Feb 13 - 07:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Feb 13 - 07:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Feb 13 - 08:04 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Feb 13 - 08:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 13 - 02:41 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 13 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Feb 13 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 13 - 06:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 13 - 06:41 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 13 - 07:06 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Feb 13 - 07:13 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Feb 13 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 13 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 13 - 10:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 13 - 11:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Feb 13 - 11:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Feb 13 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 13 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 13 - 12:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 13 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 13 - 01:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM
Stringsinger 21 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM
The Sandman 21 Feb 13 - 02:30 PM
The Sandman 21 Feb 13 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 13 - 03:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 13 - 07:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 13 - 01:34 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Feb 13 - 03:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 13 - 04:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 13 - 06:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 13 - 06:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 13 - 07:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 13 - 07:39 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 13 - 07:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 13 - 08:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 13 - 08:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 13 - 08:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 13 - 09:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 13 - 09:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM
beardedbruce 22 Feb 13 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Feb 13 - 03:40 PM
Greg F. 22 Feb 13 - 04:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 13 - 08:12 PM
The Sandman 22 Feb 13 - 08:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 13 - 03:06 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 13 - 04:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 13 - 05:01 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 13 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 13 - 06:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 13 - 08:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 13 - 08:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 13 - 03:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 13 - 04:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 13 - 08:21 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 13 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 13 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 13 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 13 - 08:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 13 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 13 - 10:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 13 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 13 - 01:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Feb 13 - 07:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Feb 13 - 08:02 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Feb 13 - 08:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 13 - 02:59 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 13 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 13 - 04:11 AM
GUEST 25 Feb 13 - 04:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 13 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 13 - 06:53 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 13 - 07:07 AM
beardedbruce 25 Feb 13 - 07:49 AM
beardedbruce 25 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 13 - 08:26 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 13 - 01:29 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 13 - 02:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 13 - 02:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 13 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 13 - 03:30 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 13 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 13 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 13 - 07:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Feb 13 - 07:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Feb 13 - 08:06 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Feb 13 - 08:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Feb 13 - 08:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Feb 13 - 08:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 13 - 09:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM
beardedbruce 26 Feb 13 - 09:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 13 - 02:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 13 - 05:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 13 - 05:23 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 13 - 05:38 AM
GUEST 27 Feb 13 - 05:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 13 - 05:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 13 - 06:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 13 - 06:26 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 13 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,keith A 27 Feb 13 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 13 - 11:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 13 - 11:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 13 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,999 27 Feb 13 - 12:27 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 13 - 01:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 13 - 03:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 13 - 05:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 13 - 05:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 13 - 05:29 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 13 - 05:33 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 13 - 05:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 13 - 05:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 13 - 01:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 13 - 01:44 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Feb 13 - 04:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Feb 13 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 13 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Feb 13 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 13 - 04:53 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 13 - 06:04 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Feb 13 - 02:07 PM
Stringsinger 28 Feb 13 - 05:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 13 - 02:56 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 13 - 02:59 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 13 - 03:09 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 13 - 03:10 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 13 - 05:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Mar 13 - 05:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Mar 13 - 05:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 13 - 05:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Mar 13 - 05:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Mar 13 - 06:04 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 13 - 07:19 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 13 - 10:57 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 13 - 11:57 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 13 - 12:10 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 13 - 12:17 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 13 - 03:27 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 13 - 05:31 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 13 - 11:14 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 13 - 12:52 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 13 - 03:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 13 - 05:20 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 13 - 07:06 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 13 - 07:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 13 - 07:23 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 13 - 07:40 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 13 - 07:45 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 13 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 13 - 11:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 13 - 02:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 13 - 02:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 13 - 04:05 PM
bobad 02 Mar 13 - 04:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 13 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 13 - 05:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Mar 13 - 06:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 13 - 06:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 13 - 08:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 13 - 08:45 AM
Stringsinger 03 Mar 13 - 01:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Mar 13 - 02:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 13 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,999 03 Mar 13 - 05:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 13 - 01:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM
Stringsinger 04 Mar 13 - 09:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Gil Troy 04 Mar 13 - 03:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 13 - 04:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 13 - 04:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Mar 13 - 05:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 13 - 05:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM
Stringsinger 05 Mar 13 - 05:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM
bobad 06 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Mar 13 - 07:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Mar 13 - 07:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 13 - 08:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Mar 13 - 09:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 13 - 10:12 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Mar 13 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Mar 13 - 06:37 PM
Stringsinger 06 Mar 13 - 07:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 13 - 03:16 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 13 - 03:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 13 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 13 - 04:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Mar 13 - 05:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 13 - 05:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 13 - 06:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 13 - 06:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 13 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 13 - 07:46 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 13 - 09:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 13 - 09:32 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 13 - 11:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 13 - 11:51 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 13 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM
GUEST 07 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM
GUEST 07 Mar 13 - 03:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 13 - 04:06 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 13 - 03:22 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 13 - 04:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 13 - 04:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 13 - 04:12 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Mar 13 - 04:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 13 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 13 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 13 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 13 - 08:52 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 13 - 09:00 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 13 - 10:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 13 - 11:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Mar 13 - 07:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 13 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 13 - 06:37 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 13 - 08:49 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 13 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 13 - 09:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 13 - 10:05 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Mar 13 - 10:08 AM
bobad 09 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 13 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 13 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 13 - 10:54 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 13 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 13 - 11:10 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 13 - 11:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 13 - 01:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 13 - 01:39 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 13 - 09:21 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 13 - 03:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 04:02 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 13 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 13 - 04:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 13 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 08:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 08:25 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 13 - 09:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 09:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 13 - 10:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 10:22 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 13 - 11:05 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 13 - 12:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 05:40 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 13 - 05:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 13 - 05:55 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 13 - 10:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 13 - 03:41 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 13 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 13 - 04:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 13 - 06:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Mar 13 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Mar 13 - 07:17 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 13 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Mar 13 - 10:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 13 - 10:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 13 - 10:22 AM
Stringsinger 11 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Mar 13 - 10:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 13 - 10:51 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 13 - 02:55 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 13 - 03:03 PM
beardedbruce 11 Mar 13 - 03:07 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 13 - 05:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 13 - 05:15 PM
Greg F. 11 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 13 - 07:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 13 - 07:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 13 - 08:00 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 13 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 13 - 08:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 13 - 08:51 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 13 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 13 - 08:55 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 13 - 09:52 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 13 - 10:18 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 13 - 10:31 AM
Stringsinger 12 Mar 13 - 10:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 13 - 10:50 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 13 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM
beardedbruce 12 Mar 13 - 02:59 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 13 - 03:22 PM
Stringsinger 12 Mar 13 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 13 - 03:32 PM
beardedbruce 12 Mar 13 - 03:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 13 - 03:40 PM
beardedbruce 12 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 13 - 03:52 PM
beardedbruce 12 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM
GUEST 12 Mar 13 - 04:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 13 - 04:19 PM
bobad 12 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM
Stringsinger 12 Mar 13 - 05:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 13 - 06:19 PM
freda underhill 12 Mar 13 - 06:24 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 13 - 04:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 13 - 06:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 13 - 06:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 13 - 07:59 AM
beardedbruce 13 Mar 13 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Mar 13 - 10:24 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Mar 13 - 10:33 AM
Stringsinger 13 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,ka 13 Mar 13 - 11:45 AM
bobad 13 Mar 13 - 06:41 PM
Stringsinger 13 Mar 13 - 06:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 13 - 07:00 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 13 - 09:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 13 - 02:29 AM
GUEST,keith A 14 Mar 13 - 03:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 13 - 04:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 13 - 05:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Mar 13 - 05:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Mar 13 - 05:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Mar 13 - 06:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,keith A 14 Mar 13 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 13 - 07:49 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Mar 13 - 07:57 AM
beardedbruce 14 Mar 13 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Keith A 14 Mar 13 - 08:53 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 13 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,keith 14 Mar 13 - 10:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Mar 13 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 13 - 11:33 AM
beardedbruce 14 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 13 - 01:07 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Mar 13 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 13 - 02:09 PM
Stringsinger 14 Mar 13 - 02:44 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM
Stringsinger 14 Mar 13 - 03:15 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 13 - 04:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 13 - 04:32 PM
bobad 14 Mar 13 - 04:42 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Mar 13 - 06:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 13 - 03:56 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 13 - 04:26 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 04:44 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Mar 13 - 04:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 13 - 04:51 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 06:51 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Mar 13 - 07:13 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Mar 13 - 08:27 AM
beardedbruce 15 Mar 13 - 08:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Mar 13 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,keith 15 Mar 13 - 08:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Mar 13 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 09:59 AM
goatfell 15 Mar 13 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,keith 15 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM
Stringsinger 15 Mar 13 - 10:48 AM
bobad 15 Mar 13 - 11:27 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Mar 13 - 11:57 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Mar 13 - 12:09 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 12:46 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 01:09 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Mar 13 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 01:28 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 01:33 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Mar 13 - 01:36 PM
Stringsinger 15 Mar 13 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 13 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 02:53 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Mar 13 - 03:10 PM
Stringsinger 15 Mar 13 - 03:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 13 - 03:43 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 13 - 04:43 PM
Stringsinger 15 Mar 13 - 05:47 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 13 - 04:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 13 - 04:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 13 - 05:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Mar 13 - 06:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Mar 13 - 07:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Mar 13 - 07:25 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Mar 13 - 07:29 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 13 - 07:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 13 - 08:08 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 13 - 09:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Mar 13 - 09:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Mar 13 - 09:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Mar 13 - 09:12 AM
Stringsinger 16 Mar 13 - 10:16 AM
Stringsinger 16 Mar 13 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 13 - 11:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 13 - 11:15 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 13 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 13 - 12:30 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 13 - 01:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 13 - 01:29 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Mar 13 - 01:33 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Mar 13 - 01:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 13 - 01:40 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 13 - 02:47 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Mar 13 - 03:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM
bobad 16 Mar 13 - 06:33 PM
Stringsinger 16 Mar 13 - 07:53 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Mar 13 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 13 - 05:57 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Mar 13 - 07:51 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 13 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 13 - 10:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 13 - 11:08 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 13 - 01:03 PM
Stringsinger 17 Mar 13 - 01:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 13 - 01:32 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 13 - 03:50 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 13 - 06:03 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Mar 13 - 02:02 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Mar 13 - 02:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 13 - 05:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 13 - 06:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Mar 13 - 07:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 13 - 08:17 AM
beardedbruce 18 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 13 - 09:49 AM
Stringsinger 18 Mar 13 - 10:18 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 13 - 04:56 PM
Stringsinger 18 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM
bobad 18 Mar 13 - 09:18 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Mar 13 - 09:36 PM
bobad 18 Mar 13 - 09:48 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Mar 13 - 10:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Mar 13 - 10:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 13 - 03:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Mar 13 - 06:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Mar 13 - 07:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 13 - 07:07 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 13 - 07:11 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Mar 13 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 13 - 07:27 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM
bobad 19 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 13 - 07:37 AM
bobad 19 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM
beardedbruce 19 Mar 13 - 09:28 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 13 - 11:00 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 13 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,keith A 19 Mar 13 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,keith A 19 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM
Stringsinger 19 Mar 13 - 11:23 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 13 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,keith A 19 Mar 13 - 11:33 AM
beardedbruce 19 Mar 13 - 12:31 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 13 - 02:48 PM
Jim McLean 19 Mar 13 - 03:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 13 - 03:50 PM
Stringsinger 19 Mar 13 - 04:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 13 - 04:12 PM
beardedbruce 19 Mar 13 - 04:14 PM
beardedbruce 19 Mar 13 - 04:21 PM
beardedbruce 19 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM
beardedbruce 19 Mar 13 - 04:41 PM
bobad 19 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 13 - 03:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 13 - 06:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Mar 13 - 06:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 13 - 06:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Mar 13 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 13 - 06:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM
Stringsinger 20 Mar 13 - 11:46 AM
bobad 20 Mar 13 - 12:06 PM
Stringsinger 20 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 13 - 03:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 13 - 03:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Mar 13 - 04:06 PM
beardedbruce 20 Mar 13 - 04:27 PM
beardedbruce 20 Mar 13 - 04:29 PM
beardedbruce 20 Mar 13 - 04:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 13 - 04:50 PM
beardedbruce 20 Mar 13 - 04:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 13 - 04:57 PM
Greg F. 20 Mar 13 - 06:12 PM
bobad 20 Mar 13 - 06:35 PM
Greg F. 20 Mar 13 - 08:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 13 - 12:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 13 - 12:11 AM
GUEST,keith A 21 Mar 13 - 03:54 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Mar 13 - 06:38 AM
bobad 21 Mar 13 - 08:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 13 - 08:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Mar 13 - 10:24 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 13 - 10:34 AM
bobad 21 Mar 13 - 10:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 13 - 11:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 13 - 11:09 AM
Stringsinger 21 Mar 13 - 12:27 PM
bobad 21 Mar 13 - 01:10 PM
Stringsinger 21 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM
bobad 21 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM
Stringsinger 21 Mar 13 - 03:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 13 - 04:25 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 13 - 04:26 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 13 - 04:28 PM
GUEST 21 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 13 - 09:22 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 13 - 09:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 13 - 04:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 05:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Mar 13 - 05:57 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Mar 13 - 06:12 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Mar 13 - 06:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 07:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM
Jim McLean 22 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 08:27 AM
Greg F. 22 Mar 13 - 09:45 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Mar 13 - 10:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Mar 13 - 10:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 10:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Mar 13 - 10:55 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 13 - 11:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 13 - 11:07 AM
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Greg F. 21 May 13 - 08:54 AM
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Subject: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:48 PM

Both the United Nations and Russia have condemned Israel for the bombing of Syria and Lebanon, hoping that Israel will be forced to appear at the International World Court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:58 PM

UN has NOT condemned Israel
Russia has said it condemns it if Syria's version is true, which nobody believes.
This is what Hilary Clinton said,
In her final press interview as US Secretary of State, Mrs Clinton said one of Iran's "highest priorities" was keeping Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in power.

"We believe they have acted on that by sending in more personnel, not only to help Assad, but to support and advise military security forces," she told reporters.

Mrs Clinton added that Iran had increased the quality of its arms sent to Syria because "Assad is using up his weaponry".

She expressed similar concerns with regards to Russia's involvement in the conflict.

"We have reason to believe that the Russians continue to supply financial and military assistance in the form of equipment," she said


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 04:09 PM

Report from BBC a couple of days ago


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 04:15 PM

What is the " International World Court" Stringsinger?
Is Israel so evil that you just have to make things up?
Do you actually know anything about Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 04:17 PM

The Syrian Foreign Ministry, Walid al Muallem, has appealed to the United Nations to condemn the air strike by the Israeli Air Force.

Get your facts right for once, Frank.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: pdq
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 05:12 PM

"We have reason to believe that the Russians continue to supply financial and military assistance in the form of equipment," she said ~ The Hillary

"We have reason to believe?" That is so lame as to be pathetic.

Hillary is at the top of an inteligence pyramid that is the greatset the world has ever known. It includes information from the Isaeli intelligence and all of our allies, not just our people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 05:13 PM

The Israeli government is facing international condemnation for a proposal for 3,000 new settlements in the occupied West Bank and east Jerusalem.
Any criticism of Israel's Anschluss is immediately converted into accusations of antisemitism and nothing is done. Bullies eventually meet their nemesis so God, Allah or whatever help the Middle East because no one else will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 07:57 PM

Mussolini was once condemned by the League of Nations too...for attacking Ethiopia. The condemnation had no effect whatsoever on Italian policy, any moreso than present condemnations will have any effect on Israeli policy...which is indeed the Israeli Anschluss.

Fascists are simply not intimidated by international disapproval. When God is on your side and you are therefore a *very special and important* people with a very special destiny apart from all others, no form of outside disapproval causes intimidation...rather it causes a heady sense of offended righteousness, and a bold determination to pursue the established course of action, yea, harder than before, in order to achieve the Final Victory!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:03 PM

Do you know anything about Syria, Keith?

Do you have a problem with Iran, or anyone else, trying to keep Bashar al-Asad in power? Do you support Israel's latest flouting of international law which, as you know perfectly well, is what the latest bombing adventure was, whether or not the UN condemns it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 03:02 AM

Do you ever look at the Syria thread?

No sensible person wants to see Syria's arsenal handed out to militant Islamists, as happened in Libya.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 03:20 AM

Nothing to say about Mali, but as soon as Israel is mentioned here they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 04:19 AM

Syria is the greatest humanitarian catastrophe in the world today, and ordinary people and children killed in tens of thousands, but no interest here until the word "Israel" is mentioned.
Then straight in with disgusting Nazi comparisons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 10:42 AM

Mali isn't mentioned in the thread title; the discussion is about Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 11:50 AM

The comment was as true of Mali as it is about Syria.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:01 AM

No further word from the OP to acknowledge that everything stated as fact in the OP is, in fact, made up, or to explain why 60 000 killings in Syria not committed by Israel passed him by unnoticed, but one targeted strike resulting in almost no loss of life provokes a dedicated thread.

Peter.
Israel's latest flouting of international law which, as you know perfectly well, is what the latest bombing adventure was

No, it was not.
A state of war exists between Israel and Syria, and a strike against a military convoy delivering advanced weaponry to terrorists is both legal and justified.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:14 AM

""The comment was as true of Mali as it is about Syria.""

My, how your attitudes change!

YOU were the one who refused to discuss the illegal West Bank settlements in a thread about Gaza.

Now you bring Mali into a thread about Israel.

MAKE UP YOUR MIND! But do so even handedly, not according to your fanatical pro Israel bias.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 09:50 AM

Yep, here they come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 01:43 PM

Israel stopped Assad, who has murdered tens of thousands of his own people, from transferring sophisticated weaponry, very possibly chemical and biological weapons, into the hands of terrorists.

I know that rankles the Strngsinger but I say THANK YOU ISRAEL for making the world just a little bit safer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:57 AM

Don, I did not discuss Mali, and neither did anyone else.
999 just made an observation that people (like you) were rushing to post on this thread but had no interest in the Mali thread (or the Syria thread).

Now that is cleared up, what is your opinion of the OP?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:44 AM

If it is obvious that a man is going to punch me in the mouth, you can bet your ass I'm going to land one first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 08:04 AM

I agree with that Kendall!

But you wouldn't shoot him and half a dozen of his neighbours, which is the level of "proportional" response normally to be expected from Israel. And you would make certain his intent was to do you violence, not some other person.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 08:26 AM

Don't over analyze my point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

The transfer of weapons to Hezboallah is prohibited BY THE UN, in the ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon of some years back. Thus, ISRAEL is enforcing the UN treaty, and SYRIA is in violation of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 09:17 AM

Excellent point BB.
Don, there were very few casualties, so you are supporting Israel's action?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM

One wonders how 'boy wonder' will explain this away!!
Jim Carroll

UN panel concludes Israeli settlement policy illegal under international law, should stop now
Published January 31, 2013
Associated Press
GENEVA – The United Nations' first report on the broad policy of Israeli settlements concluded Thursday that the government's practice of "creeping annexation" clearly violates the human rights of Palestinians, and called for the country to immediately stop the practice.
In its report to the 47-nation Human Rights Council, a panel of investigators said Israel is violating international humanitarian law under the Fourth Geneva Convention, one of the treaties that establish the ground rules for what is considered humane during wartime.
The Israeli government has persisted in settling Palestinian-occupied territorities, including East Jerusalem and the West Bank, "despite all the pertinent United Nations resolutions declaring that the existence of the settlements is illegal and calling for their cessation," the report said.
The settlements are "a mesh of construction and infrastructure leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian State and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination," it concludes.
French judge Christine Chanet, who led the panel, said Israel never cooperated with the probe, which the council ordered last March. At a news conference, she called the report "a kind of weapon for the Palestinians" if they want to take up their grievances before The Hague-based International Criminal Court.
Another panel member, Pakistani lawyer Asma Janangir, said the settlements "seriously impinge on the self-determination of the Palestinian people," an offense under international humanitarian law.
The panel's report to the U.N.'s top human rights body immediately drew the condemnation of Israel, whose foreign ministry accused the council of taking a systematically one-sided and biased approach towards Israel, with the report being merely "another unfortunate reminder" of that bias.
"The only way to resolve all pending issues between Israel and the Palestinians, including the settlements issue, is through direct negotiations without pre-conditions," the ministry said. "Counterproductive measures — such as the report before us — will only hamper efforts to find a sustainable solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/#ixzz2JxSAeUMd

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:13 PM

The anti Israel bias of the UN is well known and long standing, read about it here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:21 PM

From the Anti Defamation League:

"This resolution makes a mockery of human rights by focusing its efforts on bullying Israel while completely ignoring serious humanitarian violations across the world. It will only prove destructive by further exacerbating tensions between the Israelis and Palestinians."

"Of the 91 decisions made by the United Nations body since it was created three years ago, so far, 39 have singled out Israel for criticism, while only three votes have involved Syria, and one dealt with Iran."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:23 PM

Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:

The recent HRC report is another clear example of the body's institutionalized extreme anti-Israeli bias, and only serves to further discredit the council. The findings of the report, couched in terms of presumed Israeli guilt, confirm that its purpose was illegitimate in its conception. The so-called fact-finding commission chose its own facts and found precisely what the anti-Israel crowd on the HRC wanted them to find. The report, like a long list of others before it, further validates Israel's decision to distance itself from this biased U.N. body.

A number of accusations brought by the commission are outlandish and without merit, and many echo incendiary comments made by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas during his recent U.N. speeches. These include charges that Israel is actively seeking to erase the non-Jewish connection to religious sites in Jerusalem and Hebron, and that violence by settlers toward Palestinians is being carried out in collusion with the Israeli government.

The report's recommendations are even more problematic. Demanding that Israel immediately withdraw all settlers from the West Bank is unrealistic and outside the framework of the Quartet's Roadmap. Calling on private companies and governments to terminate all their business interests in the settlements – a position reflecting the views of the notoriously anti-Israel figure Richard Falk – is an inherently one-sided and counter-productive measure.

Instead of offering practical solutions to help bring the Israelis and Palestinians back to negotiations, the report's recommendations only further push away the prospects for peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:00 PM

From Wikipdedia:

Linguist and activist Noam Chomsky has characterized ADL as having lost entirely its focus on civil rights issues to become solely an advocate for Israeli policy; he holds that ADL casts all left-wing opposition to Israeli interests as antisemitism.

And:

In 2005, Norman G. Finkelstein published Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History which devotes Part 1 to "The Not-So-New 'New Anti-Semitism'." In a 2006 appearance on Amy Goodman's Democracy Now!, Finkelstein denied there was any evidence for a rise of a new anti-Semitism in either Europe or North America. He continued, "Every time Israel comes under international pressure, as it did recently because of the war crimes committed in Lebanon, it steps up the claim of anti-Semitism, and all of Israel's critics are anti-Semitic." According to Finkelstein, the ADL and Foxman, its president, have advanced this "preposterous" deception.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:10 PM

This video illustrates just how much of a joke is the UN "Human Rights" Council.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:19 PM

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.( T. Jefferson)
I stand behind Israel 100%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:31 PM

Understanding UN Bias Against Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:54 PM

"The anti Israel bias of the UN is well known and long standing, read about it here"
Sorry - read your link - can find no reference to illegal settlements and their human rights effects on Palestine.
Are you claiming that these settlements are not illegal?
or
That they have no effect on the Palestinian people?
or
That any reference to illegal settlements is an indication of anti-Antisemitism?
The UN (including the US) has condemned these settlements as being an abuse of human rights.
In the past the US has used its power of veto overwhelmingly more than any other member of the UN - mainly in support of Israeli atrocities and crimes against humanity, it is therefore reasonable to assume that in this case, Israel has overstepped the mark in its announcement of a huge increase in these illegal settlements; basically an act of spite in revenge for giving Palestine observer status at the UN (not forgetting, of course an attempt to gain the support of an ultra-right party in the recent elections).
Please stop hiding behind the old get-out of "anti-Semitism" and address the question in hand - illegal settlements as an act of open aggression against a Third-world people.
Israel is a terrorist nation - no less.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 04:58 PM

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.( T. Jefferson)

That'as a common myth, Kendall, but no-one has ever been able to find it in Jefferson's writings or document he ever uttered it.

The person you're quoting is John Birch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:53 AM

Jim, you have made two posts without even mentioning the subject of the OP!
Your opinion on the air-strike please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:40 AM

"Your opinion on the air-strike please."
Do not tell me what and what not to write about.
You have lied, twisted and distorted your way through the last four threads, producing no evidence for your disgusting arguments and ignoring all the evidence put by others while claiming there has been none - the end result being that you have filibusted them out of existence.
It ain't gonna happen here.
If you have anything (concrete) to say on what I have written, please feel free, otherwise take your attempts to manipulate threads while at the same time misrepresenting and distorting the opinions of others and shove them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM

It is not me attempting to manipulate the subject.
You try to make every ME thread about settlements.
It is a complex issue requiring a dedicated thread, so start one or reopen one of the many existing threads about it.

Rights abuses in Israel are dwarfed by what goes on in surrounding countries, so why do you people always single out Israel for abuse?

Is it because surrounding countries are all Arabs and you have a low opinion and expectation of them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:06 AM

Last word on this (to you)
I can think of no worst cenario for world peace than a dogfight between three terrorist states bewtween which you could not insert a credit card.
Now butt out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM

That should read "two" terrorist states.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:17 AM

The subject of this thread is the recent airstrike.
So, what is your view on it Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:38 AM

""Thus, ISRAEL is enforcing the UN treaty, and SYRIA is in violation of it.""

So tell me BB, who officially appointed Israel to the position of UN Enforcers?

And Keith, once again you try to put words in my mouth by lying.

I do not support the concept of any nation's military forces initiating aggressive action (Acts of War) on foreign territory, without either Declaration of Hostilities or formal authority of the UN.

That includes, but is not limited to, you favourite warmongers.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM

without either Declaration of Hostilities

A state of war does exist.
Any member can enforce for UN.
BB showed that formal authority of UN existed.
So Don, what other objection have you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM

""Of the 91 decisions made by the United Nations body since it was created three years ago, so far, 39 have singled out Israel for criticism, while only three votes have involved Syria, and one dealt with Iran."""

Could that be because the problems with Iran and Syria concern domestic matters within their own borders, which, however much one might deplore them, are not anybody else's business, while Israel's Imperial aggression is destabilising the whole Middle East region?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:49 AM

No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:01 AM

""A state of war does exist.
Any member can enforce for UN.
BB showed that formal authority of UN existed.
So Don, what other objection have you?
""

I bow to your superior knowledge O wise one so tell me, your magnificence, exactly when did Israel formally declare war on Syria, whose territory they just violated?

As to your nonsensical claim that any member can invade any country if the UN has stated that something that country is doing is illegal, well it hardly deserves the effort of an answer.

The stupidity of your position on this is remarkable, even taking into account your well established Pro Israel bias.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 07:31 AM

exactly when did Israel formally declare war on Syria,
"Upon independence, Israel was invaded by the armies of six Arab nations: Egypt, Syria, Transjordan (later Jordan), Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. In addition, local Arab Palestinian forces also fought the Jewish Israelis. Israel held off the Arab forces and established itself as an independent nation. From the start of this war, Syria and Israel have been engaged in one continuous legal state of war. While technically at war this whole time, in reality, their conflict has been punctuated by several major (though short), wars and numerous cross-border attacks and air battles."

any member can invade any country if the UN has stated that something that country is doing is illegal
No-one has been invaded, they just stopped a serious violation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 07:49 AM

Gate man sees name, garage man sees name tag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:00 AM

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance" has been attributed to Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine and Andrew Jackson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:04 AM

Israel is surrounded by enemies who have vowed to wipe it off the map. Self preservation is job one in any species.

Thats not to say that the Palestinians don't deserve a homeland. Remember how Israel was formed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM

"Remember how Israel was formed?"
Yup - by throwing hand grenades into Palestinian homes to clear the way for a 'Promised land' - and that slaughter has never really stopped.
Wonder why the Palestinians don't trust the Israeli regime - funny lot!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:33 AM

But what about the airstrike Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:42 AM

Yes it has, Kendall, and a host of others as well - but there's no evidence for ANY of the attributions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:03 AM

So what? it's a true quote. It's like that other quote, "Success has a hundred fathers, failure is an orphan". (Maybe not an exact quote)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:47 AM

""Of the 91 decisions made by the United Nations body since it was created three years ago, so far, 39 have singled out Israel for criticism, while only three votes have involved Syria, and one dealt with Iran."""

Could that be because the problems with Iran and Syria concern domestic matters within their own borders, which, however much one might deplore them, are not anybody else's business, while Israel's Imperial aggression is destabilising the whole Middle East region?


If I may expand on my earlier reply, no it could not Don.
The "body" was The Human Rights Council which considers abuses within states.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 12:03 PM

"But what about the airstrike Jim?"
Are your really trying to provoke another one-to-one?
You've had your answer - the fact that, as usual, you can't be arsed to read it is your problem.
Do not tell others what and what not to answer.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:50 PM

So what? it's a true quote.

That makes no sense, Kendall - it can't be a "quote" if it has no author - but I'll let it go.

Also, its a rather foolish & simplistic sentiment, but I'll let that go, too.

Cheers,

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:20 PM

""While technically at war this whole time, in reality, their conflict has been punctuated by several major (though short), wars and numerous cross-border attacks and air battles.""

When was the last cross border attack or air battle in Israeli territory or airspace Keith? In other words, is this another "war" in which all the aggression is on the Israli side.

""No-one has been invaded, they just stopped a serious violation.""

Crossing the border and destroying vehicles, equipment and personnel belonging to a separate sovereign nation sounds like a prety fair description of invasion, and your comment about dealing with a violation is simply untrue.

Any nation wishing to do that would be required to be acting under the terms of a UN resolution to that effect, not a mere declaration of illegality.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:23 PM

UNSCR 1701


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:45 PM

What bugs me the most is that I feel that Israel is trying to suck the US into a war of Israel's choice...

I think Israel needs to chill a little here and allow the US and Iran a little breathing room as there is a renewed interest on both sides to move toward direct talks between the two...

There is enough destabilization in the region now without creating even more...

And please, no sermons on how Iran says this or that... That's been going on for decades... Let's break that cycle and try to find peaceful ways to move forward...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:46 PM

What bugs me the most is that I feel that Israel is trying to suck the US into a war of Israel's choice..

Of course Israel is, and they'll likely succeed, because no-one has the balls to stand up to Israel & the atrocities they commit and the international laws they break out of fear that someone will call them "anti-semites".

Its unfortunate BS - and Hagel was spot on - there IS one hellacious Israel Lobby operating in the U. S.

What's the truism that persons who are abused will grow up to abuse others?

Q.E.D. in spades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:37 PM

Don, was Britain invaded thousands of times in 1940.
Of course an airstrike is not an invasion, silly!
Syria has invaded Israel several times and fired thousands of artillery rounds into Israel.

Providing advanced weaponry to Hezbollah would be explosively and catastrophically destabilising.
I take it that nobody here would want that, but they were on their way.
Israel was the only power in the world in a position to enforce the UN ban and stop te delivery in time, and they achieved it with little loss of life.
How about one cheer for them?

Jim, you use this thread as just another platform for your rabid anti-Israel propaganda.
You refuse to address the subject of the thread, and become offensively abusive when just asked for your view on the thread subject.
Your have made no contribution at all to the debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:58 AM

Don, please could you clarify your view on this.
You seem to be OK with the UN ban, and OK about someone enforcing it, as long as it is not Israel.
Right?
Presumably because everything Israel does is automatically wrong.
Right?

In what way could someone else have done it better?
The advanced weapons were on their way to the Hezbollah terrorists.
Last year in Bulgaria Hezbollah blew up a bus, killing a local driver and five young Israeli tourists, one of them pregnant.
http://world.time.com/2013/02/05/u-s-bulgaria-likely-to-link-hizballah-to-bus-bomb/


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 03:40 AM

"You refuse to address the subject of the thread, "
I have addressed the subject of this thread - you choose once again to ignore it.
Israel is a terrorist power with imperialist aims, consistently annexing land and building illegal settlements, and having no compunction at slaughtered and terrorising civilians in order to do so.
Syria is run by a vicious regime that has slaughtered its own people, while the UN and the rest of the world has stood by and done nothing, allowing Assad to turn what was originally a pro-democracy protest into a 'civil war', the result being a massive bloodbath, sanctioned by the world's cynical inaction.
There is little to choose between Israel and Syria when it comes to human rights abuses and the slaughter of civilians.
The idea that a terrorist nation with nuclear capability should carry out acts of unsupported military aggression against a bunch of equally murderous nutters like the Syrian regime fills me with horror, especially as the Israeli regime has chosen a party of ultra-right, ultra-religious head-cases as electoral running-mates.
Syria has already committed military attacks on Turkey - not the most democratic of regimes, and Iran, a somewhat volatile bunch, rapidly heading for nuclear capability, is waiting in the wings to become involved.
You are obviously looking for some kind of support for Israel's aggression.
As far as I'm concerned they are all a bunch of fanatical thugs behaving as such in the most unstable part of this planet.
I said as much earlier in this thread in not so many words (05 Feb 13 - 05:06 AM ) - you have chosen to ignore it, which leads me to the conclusion that you are more interested in pursuing personal vendettas and provoking one-to-one arguments than you are in the subject in hand.
This attitude goes through your contributions to virtually all the threads you have become involved in on this forum of late.
Address the subjects in hand and stop behaving like a vicious pratt in order to make these threads your own personal stamping ground.
Leave me alone and do not wreck yet another thread - sort yourself out.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

It is nothing to do with any imagined vendetta Jim.
I am just interested in your view of the air strike to prevent the arms shipment.
That is what this thread is about, and I still do not know.
Does anyone else?

You just post more anti-Israel rhetoric with no substance at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM

You have no interest whatever in my opinion, as shown by the fact that you have completely ignored that you have demanded that I give an opinion on something I have already commented on - which you have been once again openly lying about. I do not expect for one moment that you will either acknowledge that fact or apologise for having done so   
If you continue to interfere with my making a contribution, and deliberately attempt to provoke the same type of one-to-one that has ruined thread after thread I shall report you.
Leave me alone, you creepy little stalker.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 05:53 AM

""Don, was Britain invaded thousands of times in 1940.
Of course an airstrike is not an invasion, silly!
""

You really are a dope! Britain was in an ongoing formally declared situation of armed hostilities with Germany, hostilities which were currently operating on both sides.

""Syria has invaded Israel several times and fired thousands of artillery rounds into Israel.""

Since you cannot, or will not answer awkward questions, I'll save you the trouble.

The last time open hostilities (Official State of War) existed between Israel and Syria was the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Since then the following have occurred:-

""The Israeli Invasion of Lebanon (1982-1984)--In response to repeated guerrilla attacks by the PLO, which were launched from South Lebanon, Israel invaded with the intent of destroying Arafat's forces. Syria, which maintained a large army in Lebanon, fought Israel and suffered an embarrassing defeat. See The Israeli-Lebanon Conflict (1978-Present).

Israeli Air Strike on Syria (October, 2003)-- Israeli warplanes hit the Syrian village of Ain al-Saheb, near Damascus.

Israeli Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance. See War and Conflict Journal's article on this attack.

As of April, 2010, tensions between Syria and Israel were rising, with Israeli sources indicating that Syria was transferring powerful Scud missiles to the Hezbollah Islamist militia in Lebanon. See an interesting article about the possible ramifications of this development toward a possible new Israel-Syria war at Plotting the Next Mideast War

Nakba Day Border Incidents-on May 15 and June 5, 2011, Palestinian demonstrators demostrated on the Syrian-Israeli border, and attempted to cross the border into Israel. Israeli security forces opened fire, killing several of the protestors. Syria claimed up to 23 were killed and hundreds wounded in the June 5 incident. Israel accused Syria of planning and instigating the incident to draw attention away from Syria's own internal uprising.

Golan Heights Tensions (2012)--With the increasing violence of the Syrian Civil War, The appearance on November 3, 2012, of three Syrian tanks in the demilitarized zone near the UNDOF buffer in violation of the cease-fire agreement raised tensions.

Israeli-Syrian Fighting Along Golan Border (2012)

    November 11, 2012, in the midst of a battle between Syrian government forces and rebels, the Syrian army fired a mortar shell that landed near an Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) outpost at Tel Hazeka in the Golan Heights. The Israeli forces then fired back into Syrian territory. This marks the first time since the conclusion of the 1973 Yom Kippu/Ramadan War that Israel has fire into Syria from their positions in the Golan Heights.

    November 12, 2012-- In response to another artillery round from Syria which landed near an Israeli post, Israeli tanks fired back, making a direct hit on the Syrian artillery units that fired into Israeli--held Golan territory.

    January 30, 2013--Israel launched air strikes into Syrian territory. Among the targets were a convoy believed to be transferring arms from Syria to Hezbollah, and Scientific Studies and Research Center in Jamarya northwest of Damascus, which was believed to be a biological weapons research center. The Israeli planes entered Syrian airspace near Mt. Hermon, flying in low at dawn to avoid radar detection.

Sources and Links:

    http://world.time.com/2013/02/01/the-fallout-from-the-air-raid-on-syria-why-israel-is-concerned/#ixzz2JlofwUYJ
""

So Syria is responsible for:-

One demonstration in which only Syrian demonstrators were killed and wounded.

Three Syrian tanks in the de-militarised zone.

One mortar shell and one artillery round landing in the Golan Heights (which, since they took place during the current internal civil war in Syria, may well have been accidental).

April, 2010, Israeli sources indicating that Syria was transferring powerful Scud missiles to the Hezbollah Islamist militia in Lebanon (even if you believe in the honesty of those sources, "indicating" hardly implies certainty).

January 30, 2013 a convoy believed to be transferring arms from Syria to Hezbollah, and Scientific Studies and Research Center in Jamarya northwest of Damascus, which was believed to be a biological weapons research center (again "believed" to be hardly implies certainty. Geedubyah "believed" that Saddam had WMDs.)

Moving on, in the same period Israel is responsible for:-

Invading Lebanon and routing forces from Syria, which were defending that country, with devastating effects on the Lebanese infrastructure.

Air Strike on Syria (October, 2003)-- Israeli warplanes hit the Syrian village of Ain al-Saheb, near Damascus (no reason given for that one).

Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance (presumably somebody leaked that story, maybe Israeli intelligence, d'ye think?).

The above is the historical record of interaction between Israel and Syria since 1973, 40 years ago.

Where are the thousands of artillery shells fired into Israel?

Where is the State of declared war?

Based on what has actually happened, rather than on Keith's flights of Pro Israel fancy, which of the two looks more like the aggressor?

It's a simple question.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:06 AM

Er, I just wondered if you two believe that the airstrike was justified.
That is the subject.
I gave my opinion, here and on the Syrian thread.

I did not realise it was so difficult for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:25 AM

"The state of human rights in Syria has long been the subject of harsh criticism from global organizations.[85] The country was under emergency rule from 1963 until 2011, effectively granting security forces sweeping powers of arrest and detention.[86] The Syrian government has justified this by pointing to the fact that the country has been in a continuous state of war with Israel."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 07:57 AM

"The Syrian government has justified this by pointing to the fact that the country has been in a continuous state of war with Israel."


But Keith, many here think it is wrong for Jews to defend themselves. We are supposed to go quietly to the gas chambers without any fuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:59 AM

What is the justification for the continuous building of settlements and displacement of the original inhabitants?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

"What is the justification for the continuous building of settlements and displacement of the original inhabitants?"

You mean like what the British did in North America?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:23 AM

Are you talking about the removal of the Jewish settlements after 1948, when the West Bank was under Jordanian control?

Check the 1940 vs 1950 figures for Jewish settlements on the West bank, please. There are far more Moslems in Israel NOW than there are Jews left in Arab nations. I guess the removal of the Jews was OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:28 AM

In addition, the Arab Moslems were given over 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory back in about 1923- proportionate to their share of the population, and Jews were NOT allowed to settle or own any part of that ARAB HOMELAND. So how much of the remaining 32% will you allow the Jews to settle in?

I grew up with friends who are of Palestinian descent, from Ramallah. Originally one of the 6 families that founded that town- THEY were driven out in 1948 by the Moslems, as they are Christians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:51 AM

We are supposed to go quietly to the gas chambers without any fuss.

Do you ALWAYS have to be an ass, Beardie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:46 AM

Greg, of course it makes sense! and to say it has no author is silly.It didn't think itself up!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM

""But Keith, many here think it is wrong for Jews to defend themselves. We are supposed to go quietly to the gas chambers without any fuss.""

If you take a leaf out of Israel's book, provoke somebody until he punches you on the nose, then take out a gun and shoot him, that cannot be described, by any stretch of the imagination, as self defence.

Given the number of years that Israel has been doing exactly that, it seems strange that its apologists in the US and here still leap blindly to its defence, no matter how low it sinks.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 01:30 PM

Given the number of rockets Hezboallah has sent into Israel in the past, and the UN STATEMENT that all nations should prevent a resupply of those rockets, and the failure of most nations to do so, I think Israel is within it's rights to eliminate those ILLEGAL BY UN RESOLUTION rockets BEFORE they are launched at Israel.

You got a problem with that? Then YOU keep Hezboallah from getting them- which I notice no-one else is doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:13 PM

""You seem to be OK with the UN ban, and OK about someone enforcing it, as long as it is not Israel.""
Right?
Presumably because everything Israel does is automatically wrong.
Right?

WRONG,..TWICE! I am OK about any country enforcing a UN resolution, which has been formally tasked by the UN so to do, including Israel, though I do feel the UN would be unwise to task Israel in this instance, given their relationship with their neighbours (think red rags and bulls).

I am against the region's most troublesome and destabilising regime going off and doing its own thing, especially because they are winding up the equally intransigent Iranians.

If Israel continue metaphorically spitting in the eyes of their none too friendly neighbours, a bus load of tourists will pale into insignificance compared to what will eventually happen, not only in the Middle East, but in London and New York as well.

And please don't tell me that you believe Syria is Hezbollah's only source of weaponry.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:29 PM

""You mean like what the British did in North America?""

Dumb choice of analogy Bobad, since the British were out of North America long before the westward expansion and the genocide that followed.

Do some research.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:57 PM

"many here think it is wrong for Jews to defend themselves."
Out of curiosity - does anybody here believe that Israel played no part in the Sabra and Shatila massacres, and if they accept that they did, how does the cold-blooded massacre of 3,000 refugees fit into the grand plan of "defending themselves"?
Just curious.
Jim Carroll

"In working on this case, the prosecution believes that it has discovered shocking new evidence of Israel's involvement.
The evidence centres on the Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium– the "Cite Sportif". Only two miles from Beirut airport, the damaged stadium was a natural holding centre for prisoners. It had been an ammunition dump for Yasser Arafat's PLO and repeatedly bombed by Israeli jets during the 1982 siege of Beirut so that its giant, smashed exterior looked like a nightmare denture. The Palestinians had earlier mined its cavernous interior, but its vast, underground storage space and athletics changing-rooms remained intact. It was a familiar landmark to all of us who lived in Beirut. At mid-morning on 18 September 1982–about the time Sana Sersawi says she was brought to the stadium–I saw hundreds of Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners, probably well over 1,000, sitting in its gloomy, dark interior, squatting in the dust, watched over by Israeli soldiers and plain-clothes Shin Beth (Israeli secret service) agents and men who I suspected were Lebanese collaborators. The men sat in silence, obviously in fear. From time to time, I noted, a few were taken away. They were put into Israeli army trucks or jeeps or Phalangist vehicles–for further "interrogation".
Nor did I doubt this. A few hundred metres away, inside the Sabra and Chatila Palestinian refugee camps, up to 600 massacre victims rotted in the sun, the stench of decomposition drifting over the prisoners and their captors alike. It was suffocatingly hot. Loren Jenkins of The Washington Post, Paul Eedle of Reuters and I had only got into the cells because the Israelis assumed–given our Western appearance–that we must have been members of Shin Beth. Many of the prisoners had their heads bowed. But Israel's Phalangist militiamen–still raging at the murder of their leader and president elect Bashir Gemayel–had been withdrawn from the camps, their slaughter over, and at least the Israeli army was now in charge. So what did these men have to fear?
Looking back–and listening to Sana Sersawi today–I shudder now at our innocence. My notes of the time, subsequently written into a book about Israel's 1982 invasion and its war with the PLO, contain some ominous clues. We found a Lebanese employee of Reuters, Abdullah Mattar, among the prisoners and obtained his release, Paul leading him away with his arm around the man's shoulders. "They take us away, one by one, for interrogation," one of the prisoners muttered to me. "They are Haddad [Christian militia] men. Usually they bring the people back after interrogation, but not always. Sometimes the people do not return them." Then an Israeli officer ordered me to leave. Why couldn't the prisoners talk to me, I asked? "They can talk if they want," he replied. "But they have nothing to say."
All the Israelis knew what had happened inside the camps. The smell of the corpses was now overpowering. Outside, a Phalangist jeep with the words "Military Police" painted on it–if so exotic an institution could be associated with this gang of murderers–drove by. A few television crews had turned up. One filmed the Lebanese Christian militiamen outside the Cite Sportif. He also filmed a woman pleading to an Israeli army colonel called "Yahya" for the release of her husband. (The colonel has now been positively identified by The Independent. Today, he is a general in the Israeli army.)
Along the main road opposite the stadium there was a line of Israeli Merkava tanks, their crews sitting on the turrets, smoking, watching the men being led from the stadium in ones or twos, some being set free, others being led away by Shin Beth men or by Lebanese men in drab khaki overalls. All these soldiers knew what had happened inside the camps. One of the members of the tank crews, Lt Avi Grabovsky–he was later to testify to the Israeli Kahan commission–had even witnessed the murder of several civilians the previous day and had been told not to "interfere".
And in the days that followed, strange reports reached us. A girl had been dragged from a car in Damour by Phalangist militiamen and taken away, despite her appeals to a nearby Israeli soldier. Then the cleaning lady of a Lebanese woman who worked for a US television chain complained bitterly that Israelis had arrested her husband. He was never seen again. There were other vague rumours of "disappeared" people."
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:16 PM

"Dumb choice of analogy Bobad, since the British were out of North America long before the westward expansion and the genocide that followed."

Gee DonT, that's odd because where I live the majority of the local population are descended from United Empire Loyalists and any remnants of the original inhabitants have long been relegated to reservations. Perhaps the history you learned was skewed as is usually the case with the conqueror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:20 PM

Jim, this is about the recent airstrike!!
First you want to go over yet again the endless arguments about settlements, and now you go back 40 years!
does anybody here believe that Israel played no part in the Sabra and Shatila massacres,
Yes. Me.
It was done by Lebanese militias, unless you mean the massacres there during the civil war.

So Don, you do not mind if the UN ban against weapons for Hezbollah is flouted if only Israel can enforce it.
Why?
Surely the important thing for the poor people of that region is that the weapons are stopped.
(They also get arms from Iran)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:42 PM

The Holocaust took place 60 odd years ago yet your frinds and fellow holocaust (with a small "h") at Shatila and Sabra} deniers still crouch behind 6,000,000 corpses in defence of Israeli atrocities and war/peace crimes against non-combatents.
I was not, and will not address you - LAST TIME
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:02 PM

Yes, Keith, the UN has officially condemned Israel for it's obscene actions toward the Palestinians. What you are saying is patently incorrect. The rest of the world other than the U.S. and a few other minor countries have condemned Israel.

Israeli deniers are shouting at the top of their lungs but their protestations are meaningless. In the meantime, Israel is provoking a potential third world war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:10 PM

The opening post is an outright lie. WTF did y'all think the thread would go?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: pdq
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:17 PM

A wiser man than most Mudcatters said (paraphrase)...

"If the Arabs stop fighting Israel, we will have peace".

"If the Israelis stop fighting the Arabs, we will be anihilated".


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:19 PM

"Both the United Nations and Russia have condemned Israel for the bombing of Syria and Lebanon, hoping that Israel will be forced to appear at the International World Court."

That is the opening post, and it's bullshit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:23 PM

and to say it has no author is silly.

OK then, kendall: a simple question; who is the author of this supposed quotation. Plase supply documentation.

I'll still go with John Birch, unless you can supply facts to prove otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:59 PM

This is the quote I believe you were referencing pdq:

"If Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah were to lay down arms, there would be no more fighting and no more dying.

If Israel were to lay down arms, there would be no more Israel."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 07:13 PM

Andrew Jackson in his Farewell address said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". March 4, 1837.
Way before John Birch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:14 PM

Bottom line???

The US needs to push as hard as it can to bringing about a settlement...

This one single issue is the poster-boy issue behind radicalization in North Africa, the Middle east and Indonesia...

If we are going to move forward this is 1st base...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:33 PM

It is nothing to do with any imagined vendetta Jim.
I am just interested in your view of the air strike to prevent the arms shipment.


Israel is shit-scared that Hezbollah are getting as many arms out of Syria as they can before the regime falls. So Israel attacks sovereign territory which it has, at present, no military engagement with.

Well Keith. Let's imagine for a minute that the Palestinians are well-armed, and are involved in bombing convoys in international waters carrying arms to Israel, or, worse, are somehow diverting Yankee aid so that Israel can't use it to make weapons. Legitimate? You'd better answer yes, Keith. Don't want double standards, do we?

If you defend the attacks on arms shipments from Syria, you have to defend all manner of other pre-emptive attacks on sovereign territory, not just the ones that favour the side you're on. Agreed? 9-11?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:31 PM

I feel for the people of both Israel and Palestine who want a solution, and for their families overseas. I hope there is movement towards a safe and equitable solution for all. When military leaders are in control on both sides, then military responses will continue. It's a catch 22.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:42 AM

False comparison Steve.
Hezbollah are vicious, murdering, indiscriminating terrorists.
Whatever you think of Israel, it is a recognised state and UN member, like Syria.

There is no UN ban on delivering weapons to Syria.
No arms shipment to Syria has been stopped by military means, (though Britain to its credit stopped a shipload of helicopter gunships by withdrawing its insurance).


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:55 AM

If Israel were to lay down arms, there would be no more Israel."

And that is what the Israel haters hope for, in Mid East and Mudcat.
It would bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel, but as Bruce says, they can not be expected to go meekly into the fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 06:40 AM

""So Don, you do not mind if the UN ban against weapons for Hezbollah is flouted if only Israel can enforce it.
Why?
Surely the important thing for the poor people of that region is that the weapons are stopped.
(They also get arms from Iran)
""

Once again you are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Are you a halfwit?

I said I had "NO OBJECTION TO ANY COUNTRY WHICH WAS FORMALLY TASKED BY THE UN, INCLUDING ISRAEL!"   Can you hear me now?

I further commented that I think the UN would be unwise to task Israel with that job, given their relationship with their neighbours.

Are you telling me that this is an unreasonable comment, when they are at loggerheads with every other state in the region?

All of which is immaterial, since they, with their usual arrogance, went ahead and did it, knowing that any active response by their neighbours willonly result in the destruction of those neighbours and more territory for the region's only nuclear power.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 06:45 AM


Are you telling me that this is an unreasonable comment, when they are at loggerheads with every other state in the region?


Yes, because the alternative is that Hezbollah gets the weapons and the region is destabilised bringing more and worse conflict, death, destruction and suffering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:23 AM

"Some of those who would like top "bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel".
It is lying and deeply offensive slander to suggest that anybody on Mudcat wants or has suggested the destruction of Israel - anybody with a modicum of principle would either produce proof or withdraw such a cowardly and unwarranted suggestion - won't happen here of course.
Some others who fall into that category.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/jew2jew.html
"Are you a halfwit?"
Bit of an over-estimation don't you think Don?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:31 AM

Hezbollah are vicious, murdering, indiscriminating terrorists.

Wrong, Keith. They are an integral part of the government in Lebanon. They are involved in infrastructure development and they run hospitals, schools and agricultural training institutions, and they enjoy the support of a large proportion of the Lebanese population. Your ignorant, dismissive, demonising characterisation of Hezbollah is absolutely typical of the attitude that is forever going to prevent peace from taking over the region.

wiki:

An IRIN news report of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs noted:
"Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings – it also boasts an extensive social development program. Hezbollah currently operates at least four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance program. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members."
According to CNN, "Hezbollah did everything that a government should do, from collecting the garbage to running hospitals and repairing schools." In July 2006, during the war with Israel, when there was no running water in Beirut, Hezbollah was arranging supplies around the city. Lebanese Shiites "see Hezbollah as a political movement and a social service provider as much as it is a militia."


I suppose that, if you were to ask the people in southern Lebanon whose kids have had their legs and feet blown off by some of the hundreds of thousands of deadly cluster bomblets (US made) left there in their fields by Israel, it wouldn't be Hezbollah they'd be calling vicious, murdering, undiscriminating terrorists. Though I fully expect that you'll come up with some way of blaming them for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM

Israel and others countries have accused Iran and Hezbollah of carrying out attacks on Israeli and Jewish targets around the world. Hezbollah has denied involvement in some and not commented on others.

Since 1994 attacks alleged to have been by hezbollah:-

""2008: Azerbaijan officials say they foiled a plot to explode car bombs near the Israeli Embassy in retaliation for the killing in Syria of a top commander in Hezbollah. Two Lebanese men are later convicted in Baku for the bombing attempt.""

Two convicted Lebanese suggests that this is a Hezbollah action.

""Nov. 2011 and Jan. 2012: A Swedish-Lebanese man is accused of planning attacks on Israeli citizens in Cyprus in a case that Israel has said bears similarities to the Bulgaria attack. Israel says the accused was a Hezbollah operative who used the same method as the Burgas suicide bomber, but offered no evidence.""

He was "accused of planning". "Israel said he was a Hezbollah operative, but offered no evidence." Extremely shaky claim with little, if any, credibility.

""February 13, 2012: A bomb attached to an Israeli diplomat's car in India blows up, injuring four people, while a similar bomb is found in Georgia and safely defused. The attacks appear to mirror recent killings of Iranian nuclear scientists that Iran blamed on Israel.""

Where is the Hezbollah connection?

""February 14, 2012: In Thailand, an Iranian man carrying grenades blows off his own legs and wounds four civilians after an earlier blast shook his house in Bangkok. Thai police detain three men they say were planning to attack Israeli diplomats.""

Again, where is the Hezbollah connection?

""July 18, 2012: A bomb explodes in a tourist bus in the Bulgarian resort town of Burgas, killing five Israelis, their Bulgarian driver and the bomber. Bulgarian investigators blame Hezbollah and say the plotters included a Canadian and an Australian. They find no links to Iran.""

Hezbollah has flatly denied involvement which, of course, doesn't mean much, but their involvement is by no means certain.

Five incidents in nineteen years which, when they are examined, lead to what conclusion?

Two have no discernible connection with Hezbollah
One has a shaky connection with no evidential back up.
One, the latest, is flatly denied, but may be a Hezbollah act.
One, the earliest, most likely (but not certainly) a Hezbollah act.

They must certainly be terrifying the Israelis.

You know Keith, I would have thought by now that you would do a little research beyond Israel's Department of Propaganda.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:52 AM

They engage in indiscriminate acts of terror.
That makes them terrorists.
They may do some non-terror related activities, and they might be nice to their mums, but they are still terrorists.

Jim, I will do as you ask and ignore you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:53 AM

Well, steve, if being "an integral part of the government" is the requirement for NOT being a terrorist, Israel, BEING the government, cannot be terrorist, either. They provide all that you have listed, and more.- SO STOP SAYING THEY ARE TERRORISTS

Unless you demand different standards for Jews...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:54 AM

That was 100!

Before you ask Keith, the source of that information was ABC News and Associated Press.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:55 AM

"During the Second Lebanon War of summer 2006, Hezbollah achieved for the first time, strategic terror effects with tactical rockets - with thousands of WW2 era Katyusha rockets it rained down on northern Israel. The terrorist army had stockpiled over 14,000 short- and medium-range rockets in calibers between 100mm to 302mm weapons. Originally designed as area-suppression and psychological weapons to support tactical assaults, these rockets gained a new interest as terror weapons with strategic resonance, reaching their climax with hundreds fired daily on targets in northern Israel for nearly five weeks. The larger caliber rockets, mainly Syrian origin 302mm (designated Khaibar-1 by Hezbollah) and Iranian Fajr-3, were used to strike deep into Israel"


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

""They engage in indiscriminate acts of terror.
That makes them terrorists.
""

Not according to my earlier post which shows maybe (only maybe) one act of terrorism in nineteen years, and that one five years ago.

I don't think they are too good at this.....What d'you reckon?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

"Whether the Islamic Jihad Organization (IJO) was a nom de guerre used by Hezbollah or a separate organization, is disputed.
Hezbollah leaders reportedly admitted their involvement in IJO's attacks and the nominal nature of "Islamic Jihad" – that it was merely a "telephone organization,"[37][38] and[39] whose name was "used by those involved to disguise their true identity."[40][41][42][43][44]
A 2003 decision by an American court found IJO was the name used by Hezbollah for its attacks in Lebanon, and parts of the Middle East, and Europe.[45] Hezbollah also used another name, Islamic Resistance, or al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya, for its attacks against Israel.[46]
The names Islamic Jihad Organization, Organization of the Oppressed on Earth and the Revolutionary Justice Organization are considered to be synonymous with Hezbollah by the United States,[47] Israel,[48] and Canada.[49]"


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:01 AM

The United States, the Netherlands, Bahrain, Egypt, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada and Israel classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization,


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:03 AM

""During the Second Lebanon War of summer 2006, Hezbollah achieved for the first time, strategic terror effects with tactical rockets - with thousands of WW2 era Katyusha rockets it rained down on northern Israel.""

I think the clue is in the name, don't you?

Second Lebanon War.

If they are part of the Lebanese government, a war removes the terrorist tag. What were the Israelis doing to Lebanon at the time?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:03 AM

"SO STOP SAYING THEY ARE TERRORISTS"
If they carry out assassinations, kidnappings, guerrilla attacks on other states, attempts to starve, facilitate the massacre of thousands of refugees of refugees - they can reasonably referred to as "a terrorist state".
Israel has done all that and more in spades, so the cap seems to fit perfectly.
Don't suppose you'd like to answer my question on Sabra/Shatila and how it merits "self defence" - or not maybe?
"Jim, I will do as you ask and ignore you."
Wasn't talking to you Keith - just generally commenting on your 'Strangelove like' utterances and your deep insults aimed at members of this forum.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM

Fine, Jim. Then Steve is incorrect about Hezboallah, as well. You can pick one or the other, not both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:17 AM

Don, they were not acts of war. They were war crimes.Terrorism.
The rockets were indiscriminate.

I have shown you that it is not just us saying they are terrorists.
It is because they are terrorists that UN imposed the weapons ban, and despite the thread title, they have expressed no reservation at all about Israel's action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

"Fine, Jim. Then Steve is incorrect about Hezboallah,"
Sorry - don't follow; are you saying the massacre of 3,000 was fine, or were you really avoiding my question on Shatila and Sabra.?
Are you suggesting that Israel hasn't done the things I have described or are you saying tit-for-tat terrorism is acceptable?
Mine was a rhetorical question anyway - I don't expect honesty and rationale from fanatics who crouch behind 300,000,000 murder victims to defend state terrorism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:38 AM

Just in case you've forgotten my question - how can the massacre of 3,000 non-combatant refugees possibly be described as "self-defence"?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

None of the above- have you stopped beating your wife, yet?

I stated ONLY that if Steve is right, and Hezboallah is NOT a terrorist organization because of its governmental functions, than Israel cannot be terrorist: YOU CANNOT apply one set of rules to one side, and a different set to the other side.


As for those massacres. I think that there have been threads devoted to them- Why do you feel that this thread should be hijacked for your own purposes?

Will you allow the discussion f the removal of all Jews from the Arab lands in 1948? What about the massacres in the 1920"s? How about the fact the Arab Palestinian state was formed in 1923, and given lag proportional to the Arab population, where Jews were not allowed to settle or own property? HOW MUCH OF MANDATE PALESTINE should Moslims be given?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM

Well, steve, if being "an integral part of the government" is the requirement for NOT being a terrorist, Israel, BEING the government, cannot be terrorist, either.

Tiresome comment. Like-with-like would be to compare Hezbollah with an Israeli party, Likud, let's say, which equally don't work too well. Hezbollah started its life as a resistance movement, and, in many respects, that's what it still is. There is not a movement in Israel to compare. Israel doesn't need a clandestinely-armed resistance movement. It has one of the biggest armies on earth, bankrolled openly by Washington. How horrid of Hezbollah to be sneaky enough to have to rely on smuggled weapons! That aside, you appear to be unconsciously condoning any act by a country just because "it's too big to be a terrorist". To you, it appears, being big excuses from all kinds of horrid behaviour. Let's not forget the repeated incursions into neighbouring sovereign territories that have resulted in the indiscriminate (yes, Keith) slaughter of civilians. Thousands killed in those two refugee camps. Refugee camps. Shall I say it again? Hundreds of maimed children thanks to cluster bomblets left all over the Lebanon countryside. Children. Shall I say it again? Families and their homes destroyed by bulldozers and helicopter gunships in Gaza. Families. Shall I say it again? I don't care whether you call those terrorist acts or not. Ask those families, refugees and kids whether they had their lives destroyed by terrorists and they'll tell you they don't give a damn. It's a bloody word, that's all. Let's talk right or wrong instead. OK. Now that's sorted, lets discuss whether those IDF actions were right or wrong (and yes, I do know what happened in Sabra and Shatila).

Unless you demand different standards for Jews...

If that is a puerile attempt to goad me into antisemitic remarks, it won't work. You need to sort yourself out, mate. Sounds to me like you're the racist round here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM

Actually, what Andy Jackson said was:

"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:08 AM

Whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:18 AM

"Why do you feel that this thread should be hijacked for your own purposes? "
Because you and your buddies raised the question of self defence - why else?
Terror tactics have been a part of this conflict since before the state was established, by all sides - it is one of the unfortunate aspects of war; but the deliberate massacre of 3,000 human beings for no other reason than they felt like it (it would appear) takes barbarity to a new level.
Yes, Shatila/Sabra has been discussed before, but never explained by apologists for Israeli terrorism, only denied - just as the Holocaust was and still is denied by anti-Semites - Tweedledum - Tweedledee.
Is is not a hijacking - it is an essential part of understanding the Israeli regime's mindset.
I find your apparent insistence that whatever Israel can be justified in the name of "self defence" somewhat sickening in the light of their behaviour towards civilians - don't suppose for one minute that you agree!
Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 10:21 AM

the indiscriminate (yes, Keith) slaughter of civilians.

You need to justify that outrageous accusation.

The massacres you refer to were committed by Lebanese militia, and later ones by Arab factions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 10:36 AM

The destruction of a refugee camp full of innocent civilians is about as indiscriminate as it gets, Keith. And stop trying to rewrite history. Even Israel knows that it was responsible for what happened. The IDF lit up the area with flares to assist the killers and stood back while they got on with it. Ariel Sharon had to accept personal responsibility and had to resign (that's what happens to Israeli war criminals, I guess, and they can always come back later). As for "Arab factions" bulldozing Gaza houses and destroying them with helicopter gunships, well that's news to me, Keith. Gosh, Hamas were better equipped than I thought! And the bomblets left in southern Lebanon were American-made and were dropped there by the IDF. "Arab factions", eh? Are you feeling OK, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:07 AM

""The rockets were indiscriminate.""

They were also seven years ago, since when there are no records of any direct attacks by them on Israel, just five incidents of which only one is reasonably (though by no means certainly) attributable to Hezbollah.

""The conflict began when militants from the group Hezbollah fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence. The ambush left three soldiers dead. Two additional soldiers, believed to have been killed outright or mortally wounded, were taken by Hezbollah to Lebanon. Five more were killed in a failed rescue attempt. Israel responded with airstrikes and artillery fire on targets in Lebanon that damaged Lebanese civilian infrastructure, including Beirut's Rafic Hariri International Airport, an air and naval blockade, and a ground invasion of southern Lebanon. Hezbollah then launched more rockets into northern Israel and engaged the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in guerrilla warfare from hardened positions.

The conflict is believed to have killed at least 1,191–1,300 Lebanese people, and 165 Israelis. It severely damaged Lebanese civil infrastructure, and displaced approximately one million Lebanese and 300,000–500,000 Israelis. After the ceasefire, some parts of southern Lebanon remained uninhabitable due to Israeli unexploded cluster bomblets.

On 11 August 2006, the United Nations Security Council unanimously approved UN Resolution 1701 in an effort to end the hostilities. The resolution, which was approved by both Lebanese and Israeli governments the following days, called for disarmament of Hezbollah, for withdrawal of Israel from Lebanon, and for the deployment of Lebanese soldiers and an enlarged United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) in the south. UNIFIL was given an expanded mandate, including the ability to use force to ensure that their area of operations wasn't used for hostile activities, and to resist attempts by force to prevent them from discharging their duties. The Lebanese army began deploying in southern Lebanon on 17 August 2006. The blockade was lifted on 8 September 2006. On 1 October 2006, most Israeli troops withdrew from Lebanon, though the last of the troops continued to occupy the border-straddling village of Ghajar. In the time since the enactment of UNSCR 1701 both the Lebanese government and UNIFIL have stated that they will not disarm Hezbollah.
""

It certainly doesn't sound as one sided as you would have us believe Keith.

The attempt to obtain Israeli prisoners to exchange for Lebanese captured by Israel mirrors exactly what Israel did on more than one occasion, notably in Gaza.

The response was, predictably, off the Richter Scale for violence and the Israelis seem to have been every bit as indiscriminate as Hezbollah, with airstrikes and artillery fire on targets in Lebanon that damaged Lebanese civilian infrastructure, including Beirut's Rafic Hariri International Airport, and after the ceasefire, some parts of southern Lebanon rendered uninhabitable due to Israeli unexploded cluster bomblets.

Call it what you like, it's still out and out warfare involving once again Israel recording 1191 - 1300 Lebanese kills for the loss of 165, between seven and eight to one.

Now, the big question!

If Hezbollah are the threat that you say they are (in the present, rather than seven years ago), why do you suppose that UNIFIL has declined to carry out the UNSCR 1701 instruction to disarm them, and why do the Lebanese government concur?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:22 AM

Another pointless argument.It's all been said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:27 AM

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - A research center that Syria said had been hit by an Israeli air strike last week appears to have remained unscathed in the attack, according to satellite images broadcast by Israeli television on Wednesday.
Diplomats, Syrian rebels and security sources said Israeli jets had bombed a convoy near the Lebanese border last week, apparently hitting weapons destined for the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah, which fought a 34-day war with Israel in 2006.
Syria denied the assertions, saying the target was the Jamraya military research complex on the northwestern fringes of Damascus, 8 miles from the border.
Some of the diplomats and security sources said the apparently contradictory accounts might refer to the same incident, given Jamraya's proximity to the border.
Israel's Channel 2 News broadcast what it said were satellite images of the complex, taken eight months before the attack and a few days after it.
The latter showed an apparently unscathed building, which Channel 2 said was the research center, next to a scorched and blackened road and parking lot, where it said the arms convoy was hit.
Channel 2 said the second image had been taken by DigitalGlobe, a public company based in the United States. A spokesperson for DigitalGlobe contacted by Reuters confirmed the authenticity of the image and said it had been taken on February 4.
Syrian television had broadcast what it said was footage from the Jamraya base showing extensive damage to buildings and several heavy military vehicles that appeared capable of carrying missiles.
At least one vehicle, with light desert khaki markings, was equipped with what looked like a satellite dish.
Several burnt-out cars and lorries, including one with a large hole smashed through the roof of the driver's cabin, could also be seen in the footage, as well as the badly damaged interior of an office.
Israel has maintained official silence last week's raid, but on Sunday Defence Minister Ehud Barak appeared to acknowledge that Israel had carried out the strike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM

""Another pointless argument.It's all been said.""

Exactly the response to gladden Israeli hearts as they go on about their daily business of bullying their neighbours, secure behind Uncle Sam's coat tails.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:15 PM

To recap, a vicious, evil regime tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.

You can claim Israel had some responsibility as the occupying power, but the 1982 massacres were committed by local militia.
Four years later there were more massacres when the Palestinian refugee camps were besieged by the Shi'ite Amal.
There was not an Israeli within 100 miles.

Jim has raised the issue over and over when he is losing an argument, but the facts are against him and over 30 years later there is nothing new to add.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:30 PM

More Syrians have been killed in the last year BY SYRIA than the total number of Palestinians killed by Israel in the last 65 years.

More IRANIANS were killed by the IRANIAN government in the year after removing the Shah than had been killed by the Shah during his entire reign.




I don't think that the problem in that region is Israel- If we want to REDUCE the death toll, we would have to have Israel control the entire region. They are killing themselves far more than Israel is killing them. Would Jim like to discuss the number of Palestinans killed by Palestinians when Hamas took control of Gaza, in comparison to the number killed by Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:34 PM

To recap, a vicious, evil regime tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.


The fact remains that Israel attacked a target in someone else's sovereign territory, a country which is not currently engaged in active hostilities with Israel. Yes, it goes on, but kindly do not continue to assert some moral superiority for Israel when it carries out the very actions you so loudly condemn when carried out by Hezbollah or Hamas. I bet you just love those yankee drone attacks in Pakistan too, don't you, Keith? Indiscriminate killing again and all that?

You can claim Israel had some responsibility as the occupying power, but the 1982 massacres were committed by local militia.

Oh no you don't! Israel had responsibility because the Israeli army was present at the camps, illuminated the camps so that the killers could see what they were doing and then stood by while the horror was perpetrated. And there are plenty of witness accounts that the killers were virtually goaded by Israelis to do what they did. Control of the situation was firmly in Israel's hands. Bang to rights, as they say.

Four years later there were more massacres when the Palestinian refugee camps were besieged by the Shi'ite Amal.
There was not an Israeli within 100 miles.


And now who's frantically trying to change the subject?

Jim has raised the issue over and over when he is losing an argument, but the facts are against him and over 30 years later there is nothing new to add.

There's always something to add when someone is trying to rewrite history, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 03:16 PM

Fair point Steve.
Correction.
To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 03:23 PM

Israel when it carries out the very actions you so loudly condemn when carried out by Hezbollah or Hamas
Not true Steve.
Israel does not target civilians or attack indiscriminately as both Hamas and Hezbollah do.

Israel had responsibility because the Israeli army was present at the camps, illuminated the camps so that the killers could see what they were doing and then stood by while the horror was perpetrated.

You need light to identify enemy positions.
You do not need light to carry out indiscriminate murder in a crowded camp.
The Israelis stepped in and stopped the massacre.

And there are plenty of witness accounts that the killers were virtually goaded by Israelis to do what they did.
No, there are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 03:36 PM

Don, I'm not such an egotist to think what I think means shit to Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:57 PM

Should we hold all countries to the exact/ame standard of direct and indirect accountability, and responsibility, for civilian killings/massacres (whether on a battlefield, or otherwise)?

If so, I suspect there are a big list of countries and citizens (western and otherwise) that have a lot of historic explaining to do and responsibility to take.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 05:55 PM

Whatever.

Accuracy? Whatever.

Fact? Whatever.

The spirit that made Amerika great.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:15 PM

Congratulations for penning the most ludicrous, revisionist, dishonest post I've seen in years, Keith. You must take us all for idiots. The facts of the refugee camp massacres are out there, have been for almost 30 years and have been acknowledged even by Israel. Jesus, man, you're even in danger of embarrassing Bibi here. As for Israel not targeting civilians, well that's bloody rich that is. Civilians have been by far the biggest casualties of every one of Israel's aggressions over the decades. They don't give a damn about civilians, that much is clear. They get round it every single time by claiming that civilians are deliberately put in harm's way. A routine, demonising claim in all wars by all western powers. Never with evidence in support, of course. You'll be telling me next that demolishing whole villages with helicopter gunships (once the bulldozers have started things off) is not targeting civilians. You'd be a bloody good laugh, Keith, if you weren't so tragic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:40 PM

Interesting Hardtalk on the Beeb news channel tonight, in which Stephen Sackur interrogated Khaled Meshaal for half an hour (it will be on iPlayer soon). There was much talk of getting Israel to shift its position, an open appeal to Obama, regret at the rift between Hamas and Syria (you could hardly disagree) and the potential rift with Iran, and plenty of hopeful-sounding talk of reconciliation with Fatah. What was absent was any talk of wiping Israel off the map.

Yeah, yeah, I know. But don't spout off about it until you've watched it, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:12 AM

demolishing whole villages with helicopter gunships (once the bulldozers have started things off)

Try not to be so gullible Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:41 AM

I see Brucie is not going to respond to this atrocity and our other resident fanatic is going to continue lying about Israel's facilitating it and standing by while 3,000 civilians were slaughtered.
So here's the situation.
"It would bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel,"
The massacre is evidence, if evidence were needed, that it is the Israelis who would carry out the mass slaughter of civilians - they have already done so - that is why it is relevant to this discussion.
They have shown themselves well capable of the slaughter of thousands of unarmed men women and children.
Even as far back as the departure of the British, they were slaughtering unarmed villagers by hurling grenades into occupied houses.
They have deliberately targeted hospitals and schools, using the excuse that resistance fighters were sheltering there.
They have bombed occupied apartment blocks using the excuse that resistance fighters were living there.
They have used chemical weapons on civilians (RECENTLY ADDING SKUNK TO THEIR CHEMICAL ARMOURY).
They have destroyed whole streets of civilian homes, leaving streetfuls of families homeless.
They have attempted to starve and deprive an entire community into submission by banning or delaying essential goods, including medicines.
They have murdered unarmed aid workers who have attempted to break their blockade.
And the beat goes on, and on, and on......
In all of this, they have been protected by the US and her nodding-dog supporters with UN vetos that pale those of Russia and China in support of Syria, into insignificance.
Whatever we might think of Hezboallah, they would be totally insane to surrender to these monsters.
"You need light to identify enemy positions."
Ah - at last it's been said - unarmed refugees are to be considered "enemies" and worthy of slaughter - that's cleared that up.
This was not a fight - it was the cold-blooded massacre of unarmed men, women and children - no less.
At the very least, the Israelis supplied the transport for the actual killers, provided illumination for the killers to carry out the work, Gave them access to the camps and stood by and watched as the atrocities took place.
Destroyed the bulk of the evidence after the slaughter.
They later put themselves on trial and found themselves not guilty!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 04:00 AM

They have shown themselves well capable of the slaughter of thousands of unarmed men women and children

You are blinded by hatred.
You will believe anything.

You do not need light to carry out indiscriminate murder in a crowded camp.
You do need it to identify military positions among the civilians.
Did you not know there were fighters based in the camps?
You do know that it is a built up urban area, not families huddled in tents?
No tents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:15 AM

No comment needed
Jim Carroll

US GAVE ISRAEL GREEN LIGHT FOR SABRA, SHATILA GENOCIDE
Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:28PM GMT
Finian Cunningham
Yet not a single person has ever been prosecuted for the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila. As part of Lebanon's civil war settlement in 1990 an amnesty was afforded to all those who had participated in this and other atrocities. Some would later clear their consciences by confessing publicly to media and tribunals to the most barbaric acts of cruelty one can imagine."
This week sees the 30th anniversary of the single-worst atrocity during the more than six decades of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
For three days, between 15 and 18 September, up to 3,500 men, women and children were butchered in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps of West Beirut. Their mutilated, mangled bodies bulldozed into mass graves.
For three days, Lebanese Christian Phalangists under the command of intelligence chief Elie Hobeika returned over and over again to go on an orgy of systematic slaughter in the camps. The massacre would not have been possible only for the collaboration of Israel's Defence Forces, which had months earlier invaded Lebanon and taken control of the camps.
Sabra and Shatila were populated by destitute families of Palestinians that had fled from the pogroms in 1948 carried out by Israel's Haganah death squads. The refugee numbers also burgeoned with Lebanese Shia displaced from the civil war in their country that erupted in 1975.
The United Nations' General Assembly later condemned what happened at Sabra and Shatila as "an act of genocide". A UN commission of inquiry, headed up by Irish statesman Sean MacBride, concluded that the Israeli authorities and their forces were involved and responsible for the deaths. The then head of the IDF was Ariel Sharon who later would hold four ministerial posts before becoming Israeli Prime Minister from 2001 to 2006.
Yet not a single person has ever been prosecuted for the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila. As part of Lebanon's civil war settlement in 1990 an amnesty was afforded to all those who had participated in this and other atrocities. Some would later clear their consciences by confessing publicly to media and tribunals to the most barbaric acts of cruelty one can imagine.
Former Phalangist commander Hobeika was due to give evidence in a Belgian court, which had claimed international jurisdiction for crimes against humanity to prosecute the case. Ahead of the hearings, Hobeika had publicly stated that he was going to testify against Aerial Sharon to implicate him in the operation of the massacre. He never made it to the courtroom. He was assassinated in a car bomb in Beirut in January 2002. At least two other former Lebanese Phalangists who were similarly due to testify were also mysteriously killed. Eventually, the Belgian court was forced to drop the trial under pressure from Washington. Many believe that Israeli agents carried out the assassinations to spare Sharon international ignominy.
Despite the lack of criminal convictions, there is not a shadow of doubt that Israel has blood on its hands over Sabra and Shatila. The Lebanese militia recruited to do the dirty work were assembled by the Israeli Defence Forces at Beirut International Airport days before the mayhem was unleashed. The 1,5000 or so killers were armed by the Israelis and driven in IDF vehicles to the camps. The Israeli army had surrounded the site with armed guards and checkpoints to ensure that no-one escaped when the slaughter began. Indeed, some reports at the time claimed that Israeli soldiers ordered families trying to flee from the carnage back into camps to face their certain deaths.
Overlooking Sabra and Shatila was the seven-storey Kuwaiti embassy, which had been commandeered by the Israelis. From top floors, the Israeli and Phalangist commanders would have had a clear, uninterrupted view of the unfolding sickening spectacle. Not least because the Israeli forces would fire night flares over the camps as the death squads - fuelled with cocaine and alcohol courtesy of Israel - proceeded from hovel to hovel killing the inhabitants.
One Dutch nurse working in the camps for an international aid organization said that the area was as bright as day because of the constant barrage of flares.
From their vantage point, the Israeli commanders would have witnessed the most grotesque bloodletting carried out by their Phalangist fanatics against women and children. Yet the Israeli commanders did nothing to stop the slaughter. Why should they have? It was all evidently executed according to plan. Later, the Israelis claimed that they had instructed the militias to not injure civilians and to behave with discipline. That self-defence is beneath contempt.
The respected American human rights lawyer Franklin Lamb, based in Beirut, recalled what his late wife witnessed in the hours following the aftermath of Sabra and Shatila. Janet Lee Stevens was in Beirut working as a young journalist and was one of the first internationals on the scene. Here is just an excerpt of what she witnessed:
"I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles."
This week, only days before the 30th anniversary of Sabra and Shatila, Israel's current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was afforded the customary privilege of articulating his noxious views to the American people on various nationwide Sunday television channels. To be sure, Sabra and Shatila were not mentioned. No, instead Netanyahu was spilling his bile about Iran's alleged nuclear ambitions. He also called the worldwide Muslim demonstrations outside American embassies over the latest anti-Islam video "mob rule" and he compared the Iranian government to these "fanatics". In a leap of twisted logic, Netanyahu said: "You can't let such people have atomic bombs."
Such is the twisted world we live in. When will the voices of Sabra and Shatila be given such prominence on Western mainstream media to explain to the world the horror and injustice that they suffered? Maybe if such voices were somehow heard and understood, the American people would stop their governments bankrolling the fanatical, criminal state of Israel that has, and continues to, instigate so much conflict in the world. Washington gives Israel a license for genocide. The American people need to stop that.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/19/262446/israels-american-license-for-genocide/


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:17 AM

Sorry - missed the opening bit.
Jim Carroll
"This week sees the 30th anniversary of the single-worst atrocity during the more than six decades of the Arab-Israeli conflict."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:21 AM

Press TV is a 24-hour English language news network owned by the state-owned media corporation Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB). Its headquarters are located in Tehran, Iran.

The station has been criticised for its uncritical embrace of provocative stances. For neo-conservative[citation needed] British journalist Nick Cohen the station is "a platform for the full fascist conspiracy theory of supernatural Jewish power"[3] and for commentator Douglas Murray it is the "Iranian government's propaganda channel".[4]


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:37 AM

""So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.
""

The evidence I posted which shows no confirmed terrorist actions by Hezbollah (just one probable) since 2006, when the were at war with Israel is very much on topic Keith, yet you simply ignore it and keep spouting the same old mantra.

How many years without misbehaviour would it take to show a hard wired Israeli apologist that times and people change?

Seven?.....seventy?.......in your case, forever?

BB,.... ""If we want to REDUCE the death toll, we would have to have Israel control the entire region.""

Be careful what you wish for. Israel is already trying for that and getting too damn close to succeeding. Their arrogance already knows no bounds.

By the time they achieve that aim, the only arabs and muslims left will be in refugee camps, and half of Iran will be radioactive.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:41 AM

""Don, I'm not such an egotist to think what I think means shit to Israel.""

Not aimed at you personally Cap'n, but there are a lot of people trying very hard to stifle that "pointless" discussion, which begs the question....... Why?....If successful, dreadful acts go unremarked.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:54 AM

Not just me Don.
The United States, the Netherlands, Bahrain, Egypt, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada and Israel classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

And, why do you imagine UN banned weapons transfer to them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:11 AM

If you're such a fan of the UN, Keith (when it suits you, apparently), then let's hear you condemning the US for their routine, let's-hardly-bother-to-even-turn-up-to-listen vetoes, and Israel for routinely ignoring resolutions demanding that it not only desists from bad behaviour but also hands back land seized in 1967.

Have a read. Then decide whether you think the UN is on your side, Keith, or whether it's OK to just cherrypick the bits they come up with that happen to suit you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:18 AM

We have discussed the built in anti_Israel bias of UN.
That makes it all the more convincing when even UN agrees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:44 AM

There's a big difference between "we have discussed it" and whether it's true. Has it ever occurred to you that you are miscontruing unrest over Israel's serial terrible behaviour as "anti-Israel bias"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:00 AM

Of course, but not for long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:24 AM

Greg, I swear, you would argue with an echo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM

The United States, the Netherlands, Bahrain, Egypt, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada and Israel classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

So let's have a look at this. Let's set aside the Israel/US axis for just a mo, as they are openly hostile to Hezbollah and are, er, a little biased, shall we say? Then there's Egypt. Well, a little google will tell you (hardly surprisingly) that relations 'twixt the Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbollah are rapidly warming, definitely a growing spirit of cooperation building there, so might as well cross Egypt off the list. Also, you didn't tell us that the UK's position is not clear-cut. Perhaps we've lifted the blinkers slightly and recognised the part Hezbollah play in Lebanon's democracy (and don't the US absolutely hate it when parties they oppose go all democratic on them...) and the effective way they run schools, hospitals, social services, and develop agriculture and the country's infrastructure. Inconvenient or what. Wouldn't life be so much simpler if Hezbollah were all bad...

Which leaves a rather tawdry little list of US camp-followers. So that's authoritative then. I wonder whether most Islamic/Arabic nations in the region would classify Israel as a terrorist organisation if they were asked the right question (which they won't be, of course). But I forgot. You can't be a terrorist if you're big, can you? In the words of the old adage, Keith, the terrorist is the one with the small bomb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

I am wondering if any of these pro-anti Israel points have been made before, on any other of the "Middle East" Mudcat threads? (just trying to separate the "new" from the "not-so-new").

Not trying to make myself a Mudcat argument target - just wondering what's new?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM

What's new? We have a new Obama term, a weakened Bibi, far more hostility to Israel from neighbouring states, an end-game in sight in Syria...there's always something new. What isn't new is that there is still no peace process and Israel is still stealing Palestinian land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:56 AM

Greg, I swear, you would argue with an echo!

And enjoy it, like as not. ;>)

Be well,

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM

""Has it ever occurred to you that you are miscontruing unrest over Israel's serial terrible behaviour as "anti-Israel bias"?""

Of course he hasn't Steve. He's part of the worldwide "Whitewash Israel" campaign.

You can have a go at North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe, Darfur, Syria and any other bad lads among the nations,...not a PEEP, but just mention Israel and Keith pops out of the woodwork with his pants on fire and attacks you, you "anti semitic bastard".

He can't answer any question with honesty, and when you get an answer at all, it usually comes withe get out clause "It's not my opinion, it's the opinion of others who should know, and therefore I am broadcasting this non opinion to the whole western world, and if it proves to be absolute rubbish, it's their fault not mine".........At this point pausing for an enormous intake of breath.............and off he goes again. "The UN is biased,....Those hezbollah people are indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel, well we believe they bombed a bus,.....anyway they used to fire rockets ...er...seven years ago in an open conflict,.. oh, that's a war isn't it, no, we'll call it something else. Anyway, when they invaded Syrian airspace they were only defending themselves against hezbollah attacks,.....well I know hezbollah aren't doing anything but they might,....d'you think?......eh?"

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:36 AM

tawdry little list of US camp-followers

You can not dismiss the views of all those governments, including ours of both colours.

"anti semitic bastard".
Wrong person Don.
I do not do the personal attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:39 AM

UNSCR 1701-15. Decides further that all States shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft:
(a) The sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories; and
(b) The provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above; except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorized by the Government of Lebanon or by UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11;

All States, not just the ones who look the other way.





"Alleged Hezbollah violations
As of February 2009, many key points in the resolution remained insufficiently addressed. In a special report, United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon mentions that "Hezbollah continues to refuse to provide any information on the release or fate of abducted soldiers, and places conditions and demands for the release that are far outside the scope of resolution 1701," Ban wrote in the report.[47] The report also points out that Hezbollah has replenished its stock of rockets and missiles in South Lebanon, and is now in possession of 10,000 long-range rockets and 20,000 short-range projectiles.[47]
[edit]Alleged Israeli violations
The Lebanese government claims that Israel has violated the resolution over 7000 times "by crossing Lebanese airspace," waters, and border on an almost daily basis since the implementation of the resolution.[48]
[edit]Alleged Lebanese violations
In 2009, Israel filed a complaint with the U.N. that Lebanon was not complying with the resolution after a Katyusha rocket was fired from Lebanon and landed next to a house in northern Israel and injured three people. The complaint affirmed Israel's right to defend itself and its citizens.[49] Later in 2009, when weapons that Hezbollah were hiding in a civilian home in a Lebanese town near the border of Israel exploded, both Israel and UNIFIL complained that Resolution 1701 was being violated by Lebanon and Hezbollah. The IDF estimates that the number of civilian homes in southern Lebanon that are being used to store weapons are in the hundreds.[50] Israel also criticized the Lebanese army, which is responsible for enforcing the resolution, for cooperating with Hezbollah in making sure that the evidence of the violation of the resolution had been cleared up before allowing U.N. peace keepers to do their job.[51] Two days later, fifteen Lebanese civilians from Kfar Shuba a "group of 15 Lebanese civilians carrying Lebanese and Hizbullah flags crossed into the Israeli occupied Shebaa Farms.[52] "[53] The IDF took no action to the provocation, but stressed that it was a violation of Resolution 1701. The United Nations confirmed that Hezbollah violated the resolution and that the group is rearming.[54]
[edit]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1701


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:42 AM

Our governments are all the same colour, deep blue, and they have to toe the yankee line. And I'm not exactly dismissing those nations' views (though they, too, are yankee camp-followers). But I am wondering what the views of the other 200-odd nations are that you didn't include.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:45 AM

Sure, Bruce. One resolution you homed in on. I don't think any country should operate in defiance of UN resolutions. But did you see that list I provided for you earlier, of the ones Israel hasn't complied with? Here in the interests of anti-cherrypicking, it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:45 AM

8. Calls for Israel and Lebanon to support a permanent ceasefire and a longterm solution based on the following principles and elements:
...
full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of 27 July 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese State;


So Israel, in disarming Hezboallah, is acting strictly in accord with UNSCR 1701. The alternative is to declare 1701 invalid, and resume open warfare. That seems to be what many here are saying should happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:56 AM

There are a few issues that get brought to this table and a few more that should.

1) Israel's handling of the settlements is atrocious and for that they deserve condemnation.

2) Israel's handling of the situation with Syria is about self-preservation and tough shit if y'all don't like it. That includes the BS that started this thread--read the first post.

3) The perception that many here are willing to do anything to slam Israel is clear in that none of those same people said a fucking thing about Muslim atrocities in Mali--in fact, they stayed strangely quiet on that.

Pfffttt!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM

""anti semitic bastard".
Wrong person Don.
I do not do the personal attacks.
""

You may lack the Hutspah to come out and say it, but it's implicit in you attitude and responses to anyone who presents evidence of Israeli misdeeds, however far in the past, and however well documented.

As far as you are concerned, Israel is a Jewish State which has never committed any criminal act, and the whole world is anti semitic.

I say Israeli is a nationality.
Jewish is a religion.

They are not, never have been and never will be interchangeable. There are millions of Jews inside and outside of Israel who have no interest in fighting with Muslims.

It is the Israeli government and its often out of control IDF forces that persecutes, bullies and openly attacks its neighbours.

One day Israeli moderates will get fed up with the aggression and wipe away the warmongers, and Israel will cease to be a threat to surrounding states including Gaza. Then there'll be peace talks.

Who will you support when that happens Keith?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:07 AM

None of that is relevant to me Don.
Also, you put the made up statement in quotes as if I had said such a thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:19 AM

It seems to me that western government policies in the Middle East could benefit from some "fuzzing".


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:22 AM

""So Israel, in disarming Hezboallah, is acting strictly in accord with UNSCR 1701.""

1). They are not disarming Hezbollah if Hezbollah possesses 10,000 rockets and Israel destroys one convoy which, remember, was "believed" to be headed for Hezbollah. There's far too little certainty in that.

2). They acted within the borders of Syria, which at this point is not actively engaged on either side, having more than enough problems of its own. They did so on the basis of a "belief" or "indications".

3). You say they are following the requirements of UNSCR 1701, yet the UN's own forces, UNIFIL have declined to disarm Hezbollah. The UN cannot be for and against disarmament, so who is doing its actual bidding? I'd say that circumstances have changed and that is born out, at least to some extent, by the fact that Hezbollah are neither firing, nor threatening to fire, any of those 10,000 rockets.

Turning one of your favourite arguments back, are you BB, setting different standards for Israel than for any of its neighbours. You always say that Israel has a right to defend itself.

Does Lebanon not have that right?....Does Iran?....Does Syria?, or Egypt?, or Jordan?

With Israel as a neighbour, do you think that no other Middle East Country than Israel should be capable of self defense?

If so Why?....To make an Israeli takeover easier?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:24 AM

The perception that many here are willing to do anything to slam Israel is clear in that....

This thread is a perfect example.
The OP was entirely bogus, yet all the Israel haters came running in to offer support.
They will believe anything against Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 11:22 AM

Israel's handling of the situation with Syria is about self-preservation and tough shit if y'all don't like it.

It isn't a question of not liking it, Bruce, but of seeing it honestly for what it is. It's an attack on a neighbouring state with which it is not currently engaged in armed conflict. I absolutely understand why Israel feel they have to bomb convoys in a foreign country. They're scared of their enemies getting even more weapons. Yep, that's the messiness of making enemies, all right. As long as it's understood that, when Israel's enemies do the same thing to Israel, Israel shouldn't complain too much. When Hezbollah rocketed Israeli military targets in 2006 from Lebanon, we called Hezbollah terrorists. I've yet to hear anyone calling Israel terrorists for doing the same thing last week. Odd, that. Maybe it's that thing about the size of the bomb again. The danger is that, if we readily condone what Israel did, it will give them the heart to be a little bolder. Next thing we know, they'll be bombing alleged "nuclear installations" inside Iran. They won't bother waiting for solid evidence (or permission from the yanks), either. We can work that out from their propensity for bombing civilian areas in Gaza on the slenderest pretext of "Hamas using civilians as human shields" (trotted out as a routine excuse every single time).

I expect Hezbollah, Hamas, the Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon, Egypt and Iran are all scared of Israel getting getting even more weapons too. When they act accordingly, we condemn. When Israel acts similarly, we condone. Some of us call that a double standard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:00 PM

Greg, :-) I thought so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:23 PM

"This thread is a perfect example....." of an inept apologist for atrocities mindlessly denying every documentary act of terrorism carried out by the Israelis - rewriting history in fact.
Brucie, on the other hand (who has stridently demanded answers from others in the past) has taken the wise (if cowardly) way out and maintained his silence on Israel's worst atrocity; one that makes Israel far more likely to be the regime to carry out mass slaughter than any other organisation or nation - it has already done it and is quite likely to treat anyone who gets in the way of their expansionist ambitions - not very good apologists, either of you.
Israel is not the Jewish people and its crimes against humanity shame those who died in the Holocaust as well as feeding Antisemitism, as do the apologists for those crimes.
Both of you have accused others of being Antisemitic or Anti Israel at one time or another - nobody here is either, except your good selves.
You should both be ashamed of yourselves, and the fact that there is little chance of that from either of you sums you both up perfectly.
There comes a time in these threads when the only value in even visiting them is to see what further humiliation people like this pair can possibly bring upon themselves - this point was reached on this thread long ago.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:25 PM

""When Hezbollah rocketed Israeli military targets in 2006 from Lebanon, we called Hezbollah terrorists""

""When they act accordingly, we condemn. When Israel acts similarly, we condone."".

I didn't say or believe so in the first case and I won't say so in the second case.

I expect that all sides have their own reasons for doing what they do in conflict, some historic, some they genuinely believe to be offensive-defensive, but, mostly it's because they don't trust and have grown to dislike and to "demonize" the other side.

While there is normally disagrement on who is right and who is not so right in conflict (humans have a good capacity in believing they are always on the "right" side), the course taken here seems to leading to more conflict, less trust and a less liklihood of resolution and peace. Who benefits from that? Not likely the citizens of either side. Possibly the biggest benefits possibly go to those not directly involved, including the arms dealers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:50 PM

To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:40 PM

Actually the Zionist theologians have blinders on when it comes to the facts about Israel and the insist on stating falsehoods and their world view that somehow Israel doesn't create collateral damage with little loss of life is patently wrong.

The culpability of Israel is known worldwide and their religious justification for their atrocities is a bulwark of their intransigence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:47 PM

There are within Israel, many who have disagreements with Netanyahu about his policies
and they represent the sane side of Israel. It's impossible to hate them.

This is true with those in America who oppose the AIPAC dictatorship and disagree with the Obama policy of forgiving Israel its atrocities.

The haters are coming from the Israeli government who proceed down the path of violence and authoritarianism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 02:40 AM

Israel doesn't create collateral damage with little loss of life is patently wrong.

No Stringsinger, if you are still talking about the subject of your thread, it is YOU who are wrong again.

There are within Israel, many who have disagreements with Netanyahu about his policies

Yes. It is a functioning democracy with opposition parties and a free press unlike all the other countries in the region.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 07:22 AM

A functioning democracy with millions of second-class citizens who do not enjoy the same rights and freedoms as the Jewish Israelis, by dint of accident of birth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 10:15 AM

In Arab countries, Palestinians are denied even citizenship never mind voting or other civil rights.

Ethnic and religious minorities have full voting rights in Israel and are entitled to government benefits under various laws. Israeli Employment (Equal Opportunities) Law, 1988 prohibits discrimination in hiring, working conditions, promotion, professional training or studies, discharge or severance pay and benefits and payments provided for employees in connection with their retirement from employment, because of race, religion, nationality and land of origin, among other reasons.[68] Prohibition of Discrimination in Products, Services and Entry into Places of Entertainment and Public Places Law, forbid those who operate public places or provide services or products to discriminate because of race, religion, nationality, and land of origin, among other reasons.[69] According to the 2010 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and the government effectively enforced these prohibitions.[70]


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 10:16 AM

....likewise Bedouin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:00 PM

"....likewise Bedouin."
Jim Carroll

Bedouin land and culture threatened by Israel's plans for resettlement
BEDOUINS SAY PLANS TO MOVE THEM TO PURPOSE-BUILT COMMUNITIES SWEEP ASIDE THEIR CULTURE AND CENTURIES-OLD TIES WITH THE LAND
Phoebe Greenwood in Tel Aviv
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 9 May 2012 10.23 BST
.The site in As Sawahira, West Bank, where Bedouins from the Negev desert have been relocated by Israeli authorities.
A stench of rubbish wafts over the Palestinian town of As Sawahira from the al-Abdali dump. The vast tip sprawls over an excavated hillside on the outskirts of the town and receives a constant stream of trucks carrying waste from nearby Jerusalem.
Israeli authorities are proposing to relocate 2,300 Bedouins from the surrounding hills to this site as part of their push to resolve "the Bedouin problem". Simultaneously, plans are proceeding through the Israeli parliament this month to move a further 90,000 Bedouin from their ancestral land in the Negev desert in Israel's south to government-planned townships.
The Israeli administration argues that a move to purpose-built communities will lift the indigenous population from unacceptable depths of poverty. Across Israeli-controlled territory, Bedouin communities argue that their culture, along with centuries-old ties to land, is being swept aside to make way for Jewish expansion.

Around 250 Bedouins from the Jahalin group already live on the fringes of the As Sawahira dump, moved here by the Israeli authorities 15 years ago from land now occupied by the Ma'ale Adumim settlement. Their modest homes and huts are overlooked by piles of rubbish on one side and the Kfar Adumim settlement on the other.
"I'm sure the dump is very damaging for our health, but the Israelis moved us here – we had no choice," says Abu Jahalin, 70. He has heard of the plans to move thousands more Bedouins to the dump. He points to the proposed site with his walking stick, explaining that it will run all the way from the top of the hill, where his sheep graze, to the piles of rubbish.
Abu Jahalin says there is not enough land to feed the animals already here: "They [the Israelis] will wall off the whole area so there will be nowhere for us to graze our animals. I'll probably end up feeding them at home. I've had to sell off most of my flock [of sheep] already to pay for animal feed." From a flock of more than 200, he has only 40 sheep left.
Khan al-Ahmar is one of 20 Bedouin communities in the E1 area outside Jerusalem that are scheduled to be evacuated. Bedouin families have lived in this village since 1951, after they fled as refugees from the Negev during the Israeli war of independence.
They live in the West Bank, but their land is controlled by the Israelis as it falls within Area C. The EU is funding Oxfam to run development programmes here. The Palestinian Authority is drafting a strategy to address their needs – but, ultimately, their fate is in Israeli hands.
In 1975, Israel declared the area a closed military zone. Today, almost every structure has been issued with a demolition order. A spokesman for the Israeli civil administration confirmed it is negotiating with the E1 Bedouins to move them and is investigating the dump as a possible relocation point.
"We are waiting for the results of an investigation into the health impacts of living on that site," Major Guy Inbar says. "I know they don't want [to move] but because they are living illegally, we have to find a better option within the law. Why now? Because now we want to enforce the law."
Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.
Thabet Abu Rass, the Negev director for Adalah, an organisation that offers legal advice to the Arab minority in Israel, describes a painstaking fight for the rights of unrecognised villagers. "We have to petition the high court for each basic service, like water. Most of the time we win the cases – but the problem is implementation. Sometimes it takes 10 years. Or they grant us 'minimal access' to water, which means one tap three miles from the village."
According to a pending law for the regulation of Bedouin settlement in the Negev, due to be presented to the parliament this month, these villages will be evacuated in the next five years and ecah of their inhabitants compensated to move to one of seven government-planned townships – the poorest towns in Israel, with some of the highest crime rates.
Abu Rass argues that while the Bedouin are ill-equipped to survive in a town, they are excellent farmers who would thrive with state support to cultivate their land: "The Israelis say they want to modernise them. But modernisation doesn't necessarily mean urbanisation."
Information gathered by Oxfam from Bedouin families in the West Bank last year suggested that selling animals, mostly sheep, can earn a herder as much as £21,000 in a year. The problem is that as their grazing land has diminished, about half of this income is now spent on animal feed. Add to that the costs of trucking in water and paying for fuel for electricity generators, or investing in solar panels, and there is very little cash left over.
Mark Regev, a spokesman for the Israeli prime minister, says there is understanding between the government and the Bedouins that the situation is untenable. He insists, contrary to what is laid out in the proposed legislation, the Negev herders will be offered a choice to move to a town or rural village.
"The pockets of poverty and neglect in Bedouin communities must end. One [Negev] village is right next to a terrible, polluted dump. No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:33 PM

Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:46 PM

What does Egypt have to do with anything? - The Israeli regime is destroying the health of Bedouins, particularly, children by forcibly evicting them to toxic sites in order to build settlements and to suggest otherwise is simply lying - this was pointed out to you at the time the plan was put forward.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:55 PM

Why single out Israel for your anger when they are treated much worse next door?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:57 PM

Best analysis of UN condemnation I've ever read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:58 PM

Bedouin Leader Busting the Myth of Israeli *Racism*
Bedouin leader, Ismail Khaldi sets the record straight once and for all and exposes Palestinian (Pallywood) lies of Israel being a "Apartheid State" and *racist*.

An IDF officer, he's become one of the most well respected soldiers serving in the Israeli army. Refuting the myth of Israeli bias or racism against minorities, he stipulates that In fact it's no other than the "Palestinians" who are biased and racist against their own brethren who happen to be of other tribes such as the Bedouins, Druze, Baha'i and the Domari people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM

The Bedouin Israeli population has increased tenfold since the establishment of the State (1948), due to a high natural increase – about 5% – which is unparalleled in Israel, or elsewhere in the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: pdq
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:08 PM

Israel is a tiny place and there is not enough land for nomadic people(s) to keep up that way of life.

The Bedouin in the Mandate for Palestine region after WWII numbered less than 17,000.

They are now 170,000 and that is just in Israel, about 23% of the Mandate land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:20 PM

THE BEDOUIN PEOPLE ARE BEEING POISONED BY DELIBERATE GOVERNMENT POLICY - THERE IS NO EXCULE FOR THAT
YOU SPECIFICALLY CHOSE THE BEDOUINS AS AN EXAMPLE OF NON-DESCRIMINATION - PERHAPS YOU MIGHT LIKE TO SUPPLY EXAMPLES OF ISRAELIS BEING MOVED ONTO TOXIC SITES - NO? I THOUGHT NOT.


See below - pagefulls of others if you don't have enough

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:21 PM

Whoops - sorry about the typos, but I'm sure you get the drift
Jim Carroll

"First arriving in Tel Aviv's Levinsky Park during a freezing January, Jacob was shocked at the uniformly hostile attitude of Israelis towards Africans like him. As genocide survivors, he says, Darfuris headed for Israel "thought that we shared a common interest" with Jewish Israelis raised on the memory of the Holocaust. But a common refrain he heard from Israelis was that all Sudanese refugees came from an "enemy state", and were not to be welcomed.
The worst thing about the racist abuse, Jacob says, is seeing the children of refugees exposed to violence and hatred; for example, when a south Tel Aviv kindergarten was burned down in April of this year. Attacks like these ones on children are a traumatic and painful reminder of the atrocities that many refugees have witnessed at home, says Jacob. In both instances, he says, one sees destruction of property and threats for no reason, with the strong message that "because you're black, you're a kushi [a racist Hebrew name for Africans], you're not a human being; you don't deserve to be in this state.""
..... The Israeli government can and should take measures to contain and discourage racist violence, says Jacob. Anything less amounts, in his words, to "really an underestimation of the dignity of the human being.""
http://ardc-israel.org/en/blog/2012/12/watch-sudanese-refugee-jacob-tells-israeli-abuse-hannukah-south-tel-aviv-marred-racism

The Israeli government ignored the UN's call, and the following month, Israelis firebombed a kindergarten for African children in Tel Aviv, igniting a wave of violence against non-Jewish African people in Israel that is still ongoing. Below are links to the UN reports, in text and video form, social media stories about the recent violence, footage from two years of anti-African rallies, and extended one-on-one interviews about opposition to the presence of Africans in Israel.
http://www.davidsheen.com/racism/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_acfNfFkgw

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2012/10/23/survey-of-israeli-racism-58-of-jews-label-their-state-apartheid/

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/briefing-papers/1230-israels-discrimination-against-its-arab-citizens

http://electronicintifada.net/content/un-body-appalled-israels-racial-segregation-policies/11065


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 02:51 PM

Do not be so gullible Jim.
You will believe anything against Israel.
Israel is not poisoning anyone. The Bedouin in Israel are the lucky ones.

No other state in Middle East can match this.

Ethnic and religious minorities have full voting rights in Israel and are entitled to government benefits under various laws. Israeli Employment (Equal Opportunities) Law, 1988 prohibits discrimination in hiring, working conditions, promotion, professional training or studies, discharge or severance pay and benefits and payments provided for employees in connection with their retirement from employment, because of race, religion, nationality and land of origin, among other reasons.[68] Prohibition of Discrimination in Products, Services and Entry into Places of Entertainment and Public Places Law, forbid those who operate public places or provide services or products to discriminate because of race, religion, nationality, and land of origin, among other reasons.[69] According to the 2010 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and the government effectively enforced these prohibitions.[70]


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 03:05 PM

More than 60,000 African asylum seekers reside in Israel today, most having arrived in the past five years, according to the African Refugee Development Center in Israel, which advocates on their behalf. The vast majority have come from Eritrea and Sudan, crossing the border on foot from Egypt. None stay in Egypt then!


Other countries, he noted, which are better equipped than Israel to absorb the refugees should be recruited to help solve the crisis. "They have more room, and they have more resources," he said. "Israel has been taking a beating in the international press for how it treats the refugees, but never has there been any suggestion in these reports that maybe other countries should be lending a hand."

How many African refugees are taken in by Israel's neighbours?
Why constantly attack Israel Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM

I wish you two would just get married or something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM

A few more "lies" for your bedtime reading
Jim Carroll


http://www.timesofisrael.com/woman-arrested-for-wearing-a-talit-at-the-western-wall/

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/rel-fan-articles.html

"The incentive offered in the new law, by pushing Isaac toward the top of the waiting list, unfairly punishes Jacob for his religious views. While nobly intentioned as a means of increasing the organ supply, practically this new law institutionalizes religious discrimination in medical treatment. Such a notion flies in the face of the Hippocratic tradition that has guided medical practice since its inception. Treating patients differently based on their religious convictions is something that good people should not tolerate."
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/new-israeli-law-puts-religious-discrimination-in-medical-treatment-1.428170

http://urj.org/about/union/pr/2012/?syspage=article&item_id=98020

' "Palestinians face systematic discrimination merely because of their race, ethnicity, and national origin, depriving them of electricity, water, schools, and access to roads, while nearby Jewish settlers enjoy all of these state-provided benefits," said Carroll Bogert, deputy executive director for external relations at Human Rights Watch. "While Israeli settlements flourish, Palestinians under Israeli control live in a time warp – not just separate, not just unequal, but sometimes even pushed off their lands and out of their homes." '
http://www.juancole.com/2010/12/hrw-on-israeli-racial-discrimination-in-west-bank.html

http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=296430

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3480345,00.html

http://www.policymic.com/articles/21819/women-s-rights-in-israel-girls-as-young-as-3-face-gender-discrimination

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israeli-rabbis-ban-home-sale-and-rental-non-jews-2010-12-07

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33429.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM

I give up Jim.
A lot of people live in Israel.
There are bound to be a few racists as in any country.
You can google up stuff from the enemies of any country, but Israel is by far the nicest place in the whole region.

Back to the subject.

To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So on this issue the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.
FRANTIC!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 08:18 PM

Why single out Israel for your anger when they are treated much worse next door?

We single out Israel in this context because you singled out Israel as some kind of besieged bastion of democracy in the region, that's why. What happens "next door" is entirely beside the point. I beat up my neighbour and give him a black eye, but that's OK because next-door-but-two the bloke gave his wife two black eyes. That is primary school playground talk, Keith. As for unfair treatment of non-Jews within Israel, here, Keith - have a little read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

There are so many examples of the mistreatment of Arabs in Israel that I don't need to sift through to provide quotes. Read it for yourself.

As for the disgraceful, racist treatment of the Bedouin in the Negev, here's another read for you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/05/bedouin-negev-israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:24 AM

So, why do you single out a country for criticism when it is the most progressive country in the whole region, and all its neighbours have a much worse record?

Why do you never criticise those neighbours for their much worse racism and persecution of minorities.
Is it because they are Arabs and you have a lower expectation, or is it because of who the Israelis are?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:06 AM

"There are bound to be a few racists as in any country."
Moving the Bedouins adjacent to a toxic waste dump was the decision of the government - not "a few racists" You were fully aware of this yet you deliberately selected this racist act as an example of Israeli democracy - not a bad one as it happens, but not in the way you intended.
Arresting women for praying was the act of the Israeli police force, not of "a few racists".
As the article on the racism experienced by Jacob, the African, points out:
"The Israeli government can and should take measures to contain and discourage racist violence, says Jacob. Anything less amounts, in his words, to "really an underestimation of the dignity of the human being."
Racism and religious bigotry appears to be rife in Israel - not "a few" - this is by a people who were subjected by racism in the extreme - six million of them died at the hands of what - "a few racists"

"the enemies of any country"
I chose these examples mainly from Israeli papers or from recognised organisations like Amnesty so you could not make this charge, some of them you have used yourself to back up your own arguments, yet you still make it - are you really suggesting that all of these examples are "lies"?

"Why do you never criticise those neighbours for their much worse racism "
Because you have yet to show that their racism or bigotry is any worse than Israel's.
You have been squealing about "thread drift" throughout this discussion - the subject is Israel's behaviour, not Egypt.
You, not us, chose to tell us how democratic Israel was, selecting one of the worst examples of state persecution of an ethnic minority. - now choke on the result of it.

"Is it because they are Arabs"
Don't you dare accuse anybody here (other than yourself) of racist selection - not having devoted the time and effort you have in showing how culturally depraved, Pakistanis, Muslims, Asian - whatever. every time you post.

"I wish you two would just get married or something."
Nah Jeri - it would never work out - he likes to eat his egg from the blunt end, while I prefer the pointy end!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:31 AM

Moving the Bedouins adjacent to a toxic waste dump
It is not a toxic waste dump, it is an ordinary dump that in crowded countries like mine people do have to live next to.

In a crowded country you can not always let nomadic people set up wherever they want.
Israel is doing its best for their Bedouin and their population is thriving.
Let's here some condemnation of the persecution of Bedouin in Egypt.


Racism and religious bigotry appears to be rife in Israel - not "a few"

Not true. Jews are no more racist than anyone else Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:38 AM

Guardian last August.
For the last two decades, the security situation in Sinai has rapidly deteriorated, fuelled by abject poverty, socioeconomic marginalisation and heavy-handed mistreatment of Bedouins, an ancient and proud community, by the Mubarak security apparatus. From the 1990s onwards, billions of US dollars were poured into developing the tourist industry in Sharm el-Sheik in south Sinai and the peninsula at large, with most jobs going to outsiders, not Bedouins. There was no trickle down to the local economy.

Similarly, Mubarak and his associates sold huge tracts of Sinai land to crony capitalists, angering Bedouins who felt excluded from the development of agricultural farms in their heartland.

Equally important, Mubarak unleashed his security thugs against restive Bedouins and humiliated and insulted their leaders, a sin that deepened the community's resentment against the Cairo authorities. Over the years many Bedouins have told me of their grievances against the Mubarak regime, stressing economic exploitation of their land and disrespect for their code of honour and values


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:50 AM

"Israel is an immigrant country, an assemblage of cultural groups from all over the world - a multiethnic state combining Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews, Bedouins, Druze, Arabs and more, who coalesce to make the country great," he explains. "We are compelled to find a common language and common ground, despite our differences."


Back with his family in their tiny house in Khawalid several months later, he determined to bring Americans over for a personal guided tour of his homeland - "the best place on earth, and the small part of it that is my wonderful village." It did not take him long to fulfill this vow: Soon after starting his studies at the University of Haifa, he was arranging visits for foreigners with the help of Prof. Barry Berger, director of the overseas student program. Eventually, he says, thousands of people came to learn about Bedouins in Israel "and the story of one Bedouin in particular who visited America."

Serving his country

Before earning a master's degree from Tel Aviv University in political science with a concentration in international relations, Khaldi did two years of voluntary service as a police officer, first with the border patrol and later in Jerusalem. His hand rested on a Koran at his swearing-in ceremony, and he notes that he was continuing the tradition of Bedouin men who have chosen to do military or national service since before the state was officially founded.



"I had put my life on the line for my country, and now I wanted to serve it as a diplomat. My idea was to explain Israeli society, culture and politics from the perspective of the Bedouin minority in the Jewish state. My ultimate goal was to advocate for Israel and dispel the myriad of erroneous 'facts' that are unfortunately often accepted as truth."

He is quick to add that he wasn't setting out to paint Israel as a perfect place. "Like every other nation in the world, Israel has its problems," he says. Nevertheless, he was blindsided by the ferocity of Israel hatred he encountered - especially among Jews - that often earned him a less-than-warm reception.

He took to reminding Americans that the United States is not perfect either, despite a much longer nationhood than Israel's. He explains that he believes in a positive approach, searching for solutions as a free member of a democracy, rather than less constructive avenues of criticism.

"I know discrimination in Israel continues to exist. But I feel it is our role, the younger generation's, to dedicate ourselves to the elimination of discrimination and to seek true economic and social justice throughout our society," writes Khaldi. "There is an African American [US] president, but that doesn't mean discrimination does not exist in America, and it also doesn't mean that African Americans should wash their hands of their country of birth."


Khaldi is still a proud Bedouin and believes that a Jewish state is in the best interest of Israel's minorities. "It was through their alliance with the emerging Jewish state that the Bedouins began to transcend the isolation that was part of their nomadic history," he relates to anyone who cares to understand this bit of Middle East history. "My family, too, has reaped the benefits of this alliance, receiving health care, education, job training and pensions. ... Israel's right to exist is my right and my people's right."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:04 AM

"It is not a toxic waste dump"
Piss off Keith - you have been given the information which describes it as such - and earlier articles that have been pointed out to you have described the result of the dump's toxicity and how it has affected the childrens' health.
You are now deliberately covering up this, the same as you dismissed the malnutrition in Palestinian children due to the blockade - you really are a low-life shit.
"you can not always let nomadic people set up wherever they want."
The sites that the Bedouins have been evicted from have been occupied by them for generations
THEY HAVE BEEN EVICTED TO MAKE ROOM FOR JEWISH SETTLERS AND THE RESULT IS THAT THEY ARE BEING POISONED - ISRAELS RESPONSE TO THE "BEDOUIN PROBLEM" chillingly familiar?
And now, having whined about thread drift you have drifted to a totally unrelated subject - as Steve Shaw rightly pointed out.
"What happens "next door" is entirely beside the point."
Don't you ever mention "thread-drift again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:44 AM

"This is interesting because 'condemnation' has figured heavily in the UN's lexicon for many, many decades. Archived news articles finds that in '56 the US wanted the UN to condemn the Soviets for doing bad things in Hungary. In '61 the Soviets, in a stroke of originality, wanted the UN to condemn the US for doing bad things in Latin America. In '74 the Brits wanted the UN to condemn the Greek Junta in Greece. In 1990 France asked the UN to condemn Iraq for acting like Iraq in the 80s. The list goes on and on of countries asking the UN to condemn other countries. It seems like the UN has been handing out condemnations like candy at the doctor's office, and I still don't know what it means. Or, more to the point: what difference does it make?"

Paragraph from the link posted on Feb 9 at 12:57 PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 06:23 AM

Wha......?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:02 AM

Jim, if you mean the dump we discussed before, it is in Jerusalem, a few minutes walk from some of the holiest sites, and surrounded by apartments and offices.
It was NOT a toxic dump, but an ordinary recycling depot.
I even provided photos.
Remember?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

""The danger is that, if we readily condone what Israel did, it will give them the heart to be a little bolder. Next thing we know, they'll be bombing alleged "nuclear installations" inside Iran.""

Yes Steve, there's precedent already established for that statement, as follows:-

""Israeli Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance. See War and Conflict Journal's article on this attack.

Source ABC News and Associated Press.
""

This was just one of the Israeli incursions I posted a few days ago, and which were studiously ignored by our Pro Israel fanatics.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:55 AM

From the Anti Semite BBC
Jim Carroll
"Half the Bedouin population lives in cities.* Bedouin settlements are amongst the most deprived in Israel, and are severely lacking in services such as public transport and banks. The rest of the 76,000 continue to live in tens of "unrecognized villages," some of which predate the existence of Israel.[9] These villages do not appear on any Israeli maps, and are denied basic services like water, electricity and schools. It is forbidden by the Israeli authorities for the residents of these villages to build permanent structures, though many do, risking fines and home demolition.[9] Several, including Wadi el Na'am, are located close to the Ramat Hovav toxic waste dump, and residents have suffered from higher than average incidences of respiratory illnesses and cancer.[13] The Israeli government frequently demolishes homes and sprays toxic pesticides onto crops in the unrecognized villages, including one episode where Bedouin homes were demolished to make way for the establishment of a Jewish town.[14] ..."
http://www.sciforums.com/BBC-on-Israel-s-Negev-Bedouin-policy-shame-t-71060.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:00 AM

""Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.""

The fact that Egypt, or any other country, ill treats a minority, makes that country wrong, evil and racist.

Israel is one of those countries and the fact that it has company in its mistreatment of minorities does not make it better than the others.

It makes them all equally wrong.

When will you grow up and realise that "Jimmy did it too miss, always was and still is an invalid argument.

And who is deperately changing the subject now?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

And again
Jim Carroll
A mass forcible eviction, which seems the most likely outcome of the plans of the Israeli authorities, would be a breach of the Geneva Conventions – which is a war crime, for which there is personal criminal liability.
There are also grave environmental concerns with the proposed relocation site for many of the Jahalin Bedouin communities, which is located next to a potentially highly toxic rubbish dump east of Jerusalem.
Furthermore, B'Tselem and the Bedouin communities of Area C claim that the plan to expand Ma'ale Adumim will sever the connection between the southern and the northern part of theWest Bank for Palestinians – effectively ending the possibility of a two-state solution
http://palsolidarity.org/2011/12/khan-al-ahmar-forced-expulsion-of-bedouins-from-area-c/


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:55 AM

There is hope in the
younger generation


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 12:58 PM

Don, I am grateful to Israel that Assad does not now have a nuclear capability, and so is the rest of the world outside of Iran.
You would be happy with it?

Israel does not mistreat its minorities.
Egypt does.

"Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.

Locked in this arid expanse, the Bedouins claim they have have been left to fend for themselves. Mistrust between the government and the Bedouins, some of whom allegedly collaborated with the Israeli military when it occupied Sinai in 1967, continues to fuel negative stereotypes about them."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/jun/17/egypt-bedouin-risk-of-exclusion-citizenship-rights


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM

Thanks for that video Freda. Jewish youth are increasingly becoming aware and active in such ways.

And for those who lob "self-hating Jew" around at any Jewish critique of Israeli policies, this video demonstrates how blatantly false such an accusation is. Instead, it shows just how proud such dissenting Jewish voices are to actively reclaim their longstanding Jewish spiritual and political tradition of, and identity as, activists for social justice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8dCIrO5kbw


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:07 PM

Israel doesn't mistreat its minorities, huh?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/feb/10/beitar-jerusalem-counts-cost-arson


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM

Steve, that is a story about football?

Jim, your quote was not BBC but Wiki, and the other from an extreme anti-Israel site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM

An interesting article from the Harvard's Institute of Politics.

The Plight of the Syrian Kurds


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:36 PM

Jim, the fake BBC Wiki quote was about "unrecognised" villages.
Some are near a toxic site.
Israel is trying to relocate them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM

""In a crowded country you can not always let nomadic people set up wherever they want.
Israel is doing its best for their Bedouin and their population is thriving.
Let's here some condemnation of the persecution of Bedouin in Egypt.
""

But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it? Just what you accused us of doing?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:49 PM

""Khaldi is still a proud Bedouin and believes that a Jewish state is in the best interest of Israel's minorities.""

One uncle Tom doth not an inclusive nation make! Especially when he is glossing over the treatment of his fellows. It is also difficult to believe that a genuine Arab would see a "Jewish State" as anything but anathema. An "Israeli State", well maybe, but it still ignores the plight of his kind.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM

""Israel does not mistreat its minorities.""

LIE!

You have been presented with irrefutable evidence that it does.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:03 PM

""Jim, your quote was not BBC but Wiki, and the other from an extreme anti-Israel site.""

My posted facts were not from an extreme anti Israel source Keith, but from ABC News and Associated Press.

Was that the reason for your ignoring the whole lot, because they were from impeccably credible sources?

And we aren't going to allow you to sidetrack this thread. You accused us of trying to change the subject. Now we won't allow you to do the self same thing. So answer the points put to you, or quit.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:44 PM

It is also difficult to believe that a genuine Arab would see a "Jewish State" as anything but anathema
Only if you have a false impression based on hatred Don.
Every year, between 5 and 10% of all Bedouin males reaching the required age VOLUNTEER for the army of Israel.

But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it?
No. The subject was persecution of Bedouin.
They are persecuted in Egypt, but not in Israel.

You have been presented with irrefutable evidence that it does.
Er, no Don.

My posted facts were not from an extreme anti Israel source Keith, but from ABC News and Associated Press.
I remember the one about Israel destroying Assad's nuclear facility, for which the world is grateful, and I posted about it.
What did I miss Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 03:47 PM

Real BBC quote.
In fact, there are thousands of Muslim Bedouin who serve in the Israeli army, or IDF, and even bear arms against their fellow Muslims in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
They do so although it is not compulsory for them to serve in the Israeli military, as it is for most Israeli Jews, and sometimes military service comes with a price tag.
"I will do whatever is required from me to do the job with the full faith in the service of the Israeli state," asserts Maj Fehd Fallah, a Bedouin from the village of Saad in the Israeli occupied Golan.
He is happy to perform his duty, whoever he may have to fight against.

"Yes, I have fought against Muslims in Gaza," he says. That includes Israel's three-week Operation Cast Lead which began in December last year.
"And I would fight again if I had to," he added. "Israeli Muslims who don't serve in the IDF should be ashamed for not serving their country."

Military service is a family tradition in many Bedouin villages, especially those located in the north of Israel.
During my conversation with Maj Fallah, two men were standing listening to us. They were his cousins and both wore the uniform of the IDF.
"It's a legacy - it's something that has been passed on from generation to generation in my family," Maj Fallah explains.
"My father and his father served in the army too."


Bedouin who serve in Israel's army


Many Bedouin Arabs serve in the Israeli army and security forces

By Rachid Sekkai
BBC Arabic Service, northern Israel

The traditional view of the Arab-Israeli conflict is of Jews fighting Muslims. But that image does not always reflect the truth.
In fact, there are thousands of Muslim Bedouin who serve in the Israeli army, or IDF, and even bear arms against their fellow Muslims in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
They do so although it is not compulsory for them to serve in the Israeli military, as it is for most Israeli Jews, and sometimes military service comes with a price tag.
"I will do whatever is required from me to do the job with the full faith in the service of the Israeli state," asserts Maj Fehd Fallah, a Bedouin from the village of Saad in the Israeli occupied Golan.
He is happy to perform his duty, whoever he may have to fight against.

Bedouin have fought and died alongside Jewish Israelis in the army
"Yes, I have fought against Muslims in Gaza," he says. That includes Israel's three-week Operation Cast Lead which began in December last year.
"And I would fight again if I had to," he added. "Israeli Muslims who don't serve in the IDF should be ashamed for not serving their country."
Israel's Bedouin are a Muslim, Arabic-speaking group. Although these formerly nomadic people were once considered part of the Palestinian nation, most of them are now proud to call themselves Israelis.
Co-operation between Jews and Bedouin began before the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948.
In 1946, tribal leader Abu Yusuf al-Heib sent more than 60 of his men to fight alongside Zionist forces against their Arab neighbours in Galilee.
More than 60 years on, Maj Fallah's devotion to the Jewish state was unequivocal. He even refused to be interviewed by me in Arabic, insisting: "I have better command of Hebrew."
Military service is a family tradition in many Bedouin villages, especially those located in the north of Israel.
During my conversation with Maj Fallah, two men were standing listening to us. They were his cousins and both wore the uniform of the IDF.
"It's a legacy - it's something that has been passed on from generation to generation in my family," Maj Fallah explains.
"My father and his father served in the army too."
Potential conflict
The Israeli army does not publish statistics about the exact number of non-Jewish enlisted soldiers, although it says hundreds of non-Jewish Israeli citizens - Muslims, Christians and Druze - join up every year.
Their numbers have grown rather than decreased since the controversial military assault on Gaza.
        
When I was in the army, they said it would be easy for me to get the job. I applied for a lot of things but it wasn't easy
Maher, Bedouin recruit
The Israeli military official responsible for minorities is Col Ahmed Ramiz.
He is Druze, another Arabic-speaking ethnic group with a presence in Israel and other parts of the Middle East.
He told me that the main obligation for any citizen of Israel "is to defend his country and to serve in the IDF".


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 03:59 PM

Steve, that is a story about football?

I can't believe you'd discount such a thing so cynically. In microcosm, it's all about Israeli attitudes to Arabs, Keith. Israel apropos of racism is about where we were (and where you are still) in the 1950s. What goes on in a football crowd and what has yet to be addressed is a prime symptom of a nation's cultural/racial issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:03 PM

No Steve.
Football hooligans are a thuggish subset of a community.
To draw a conclusion about all Israelis from that incident is racist bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM

From your story Steve.
"Beitar, the only Israeli club to have never signed a player from the 20% of the country's population that is Arab"

It is racist to judge all Jews in Israel by a subgroup of the supporters of one football team.
Especially now that team has Muslim players too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:30 PM

Please yourself. When I say it's symptomatic of Israeli attitudes to Arabs I'm talking about an attitude endemic in the country that has not been effectively addressed. Outrages at football matches in this country one tenth as bad as that one are roundly condemned here (as Luis Suarez discovered), and their incidence has reduced to almost nil. What I am not saying, just as I would not have said about violence and racism at football matches here in the 50s, 60s and 70s, is that it meant everyone in the country was racist. There are racist bigots everywhere, but we can usefully judge a country by what they do about it. The fact that Israel has 70s-style difficulties of this kind at their matches speaks volumes about where they are along the road to fighting racism. And that is not very far. And you do have to wonder whether they care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 06:06 PM

Guest CS, what a great video - thanks for posting. It's informative to hear from brave Jewish voices for peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:56 PM

Indeed, Freda. I'm sorry I missed that link when CS put it up. It's wonderful. What a shame that there are so many race-hate comments underneath it. One there that Keith himself might have proudly typed:

What a joke. Israeli Arabs have more rights in israel than they do in any other arab country. This should be plainly obvious to everyone by now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 10:27 PM

If you read your own link you will see it was roundly condemned in Israel and people arrested and charged.

You are passing judgement on a whole ethnic group on the basis of one crime by a group of far-Right football hooligans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:09 AM

Yeah. And when Arabs start saying the same things those Jews are, maybe change will happen and then there'll be an outbreak of peace. One can but hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:26 AM

Steve.
One there that Keith himself might have proudly typed:

What a joke. Israeli Arabs have more rights in israel than they do in any other arab country.


Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jewish Israelis, so yes that is perfectly correct.
Also they are exempted from compulsory military service.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:24 AM

"From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:09 AM
Yeah. And when Arabs start saying the same things those Jews are, maybe change will happen and then there'll be an outbreak of peace. One can but hope."

They already ARE working in solidarity with Arabs 999. They already are spreading the same message.

JVP actively oppose the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, just the same as Arabs do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:28 AM

Do you have a video of the Crow Sister? Of Arabs working with Jews to bring the present Israeli government to its senses regarding the settlements? If so, please post. I'd love to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:49 AM

I see Keith isn't the only Troll on this thread -
Before it gets closed down; Amnesty's take on the Bedouin's treatment in Israel - antisemitc, no doubt
Jim Carroll

ISRAEL: CANCEL PLAN TO FORCIBLY DISPLACE JAHALIN BEDOUIN COMMUNITIES
"Thousands of Bedouin are facing the destruction of their homes and livelihoods under this Israeli military plan"
Ann Harrison, Deputy Director for Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Programme
Israeli defence minister Ehud Barak should cancel military plans to forcibly displace around 2,300 Bedouin residents of the West Bank to an area beside the Jerusalem municipal garbage dump, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing paper.
In Stop the Transfer: Israel about to expel Bedouin from homes to expand settlements, the organization calls on the Israeli military to order an immediate halt to all demolitions in the 20 communities affected by the plan.
Amnesty International said that verbal promises made by Israeli military officials last week not to implement pending demolition orders in Khan al-Ahmar, one of the Bedouin communities targeted for displacement in the Jerusalem district of the occupied West Bank, are insufficient.   
"Thousands of Bedouin living in some of the most vulnerable communities in the West Bank are facing the destruction of their homes and livelihoods under this Israeli military plan. Many are registered refugees and some have been displaced multiple times since 1948," said Ann Harrison, Deputy Director for Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Programme.
"The Israeli authorities must guarantee the right to adequate housing for residents in all 20 communities, along with Palestinians throughout the occupied West Bank. This means protecting them from forced evictions and conducting genuine consultations with all of the communities."
In July 2011, Israel Civil Administration officials first told UN agencies of a plan to evict some 2,300 residents of 20 Bedouin communities in the Jerusalem district to a site approximately 300 metres from the Jerusalem municipal garbage dump.
The communities are all currently located near illegal settlements in the Ma'ale Adumim settlement bloc, many of them in areas targeted for settlement expansion.
The Israeli military considers most structures in these communities – located in Area C of the occupied West Bank, where Israel retains authority over planning and zoning – to be built illegally without the required permits. However, construction permits are almost impossible to obtain for Palestinian communities in Area C. Most of the structures in these communities have demolition orders against them, including homes, kitchens, external toilets, animal shelters, and two primary schools.   
The Israeli military authorities have not consulted representatives of the Bedouin communities about the displacement plan. Community representatives have told Amnesty International that they reject the plan because it would be impossible for them to maintain their traditional way of life if they were moved to a restricted area near the garbage dump.
Israel forcibly moved Bedouin families to the same area in the late 1990s, placing homes as close as 150 metres to the garbage dump. Bedouin who live there have told Amnesty International that the site was unsuitable to their way of life, that they had had to sell off their livestock due to a lack of grazing areas, and that they suffered high rates of unemployment. Some have returned to the areas from which they had been displaced.   
According to the Israeli Ministry of Environmental Protection, the dump receives up to 1100 tons of garbage per day, most of it from Jerusalem. The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage.
Although disposal of waste at the site is due to cease later this year, no rehabilitation plan has been agreed, which means that the environmental hazards will likely remain for years.
Israeli officials have emphasized that the displacement plan envisions connecting relocated Bedouin communities to the electricity and water networks. They have not explained why Israel can provide such services to illegal settlements and unrecognized settler outposts in the West Bank, but not to longstanding Bedouin communities.
The 20 Bedouin communities have created a "protection committee" to coordinate their response to the displacement plan. The committee's stated preference would be to return to their lands in Israel's Negev desert from which they were displaced by the Israeli authorities in the 1950s, in accordance with their internationally recognized right to return.
The Bedouin communities say that their second option would be for Israeli authorities to recognize their rights to remain in their current homes, connect them to water, electricity and road networks, and lift arbitrary restrictions on their movement. Due to these restrictions, many Bedouin must buy animal fodder for sheep and goats that they were formerly able to graze, forcing them to sell their livestock.
As the final option, the Bedouin would be willing to negotiate the possibility of relocating again, if the Civil Administration treated them as equal negotiating partners.
Major-General Eitan Dangot, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, visited the Khan al-Ahmar community last week, and reportedly promised residents that that their homes and community school would not be demolished, and that they would not be transferred to the site next to the garbage dump. He said that the community would be moved to a different site in the occupied West Bank.
But Amnesty International said that was not enough.
"Israeli military officials are putting a gloss on their plans by portraying them as a way of providing Bedouin with basic amenities such as water and electricity, but in fact such forcible relocation of Bedouin would merely perpetuate years of dispossession and discrimination AND COULD CONSTITUTE A WAR CRIME," said Ann Harrison.
"Informal promises are not enough for these communities. The Israeli Minister of Defence must issue a formal cancellation of this policy."
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israel-cancel-plan-forcibly-displace-jahalin-bedouin-communities-2012-02-08


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:54 AM

Out of date info again Jim.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/bedouin-community-wins-reprieve-from-forcible-relocation-to-jerusalem-garbage-dump-1.411248

Israel is not like nearby states.
Everyone has rights and access to law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:11 AM

The Israelis have not abandoned their plans to move the Bedouin next to A TOXIC DUMP - "The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage." but have possibly yielded to pressure due to the threat of being prosecuted for war crimes
The fact that they are still considering the plan makes them potential rather than actual war criminals (in this case alone - they have already committed war crimes).
The fact that they should consider carrying out such a murderous act, even after having been warned they they might be prosecuted for committing a war crime, says all that needs be said on the nature of the Israeli regime.
The Bedouin will have no final say in the decision.
Israel is indeed "not like nearby states" - it is a terrorist state with nuclear weapons.
This thread becomes yet another exercise in feeding the fanatic.
Jim Carroll

"The Bedouin, who are from the Jahalin tribe, will be given the opportunity to review and comment on the new proposal but will not be consulted before it is drawn up, Palestinian sources said."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:31 AM

Not toxic waste Jim.
Just garbage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:41 AM

Are you really such a heartless bastard as to condone the removal of a whole community from their traditional lands to a TOXIC DUMP
"The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage." - this description of the dump is from that well known Antisemitic group, THE ISRAELI MINISTRY OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
You really have any abandoned any vestige of self respect.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:12 AM

Not toxic, just garbage, and it is not going to happen anyway, and the dump is due to close this year.
Another hyped up non-issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:31 AM

You really are going to condone the depositing of a whole community adjacent to a rubbish dump, aren't you?
Methane if it gets into the water supply becomes toxic
If it is mixed with other gasses it becomes toxic
Children playing on or near such rubbish dumps are liable to be hurt and poisoned - the Israeli Ministry for the Environment has stated that the dump "is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires"
The Amnesty report contains the following, which you have carefully forgotten to mention, "Although disposal of waste at the site is due to cease later this year, no rehabilitation plan has been agreed, which means that the environmental hazards will likely remain for years."
The toxicity of a site this size, in fact will remain in the ground for decades.
This is how much of a 'non event' this potential war crime is.
I have wondered in the past whether you could possibly sink any lower in your defence of a terrorist state and your racist crusades - you continue to surprise me.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:44 AM

People have to live near garbage dumps here.
All those hazards are easily overcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:02 AM

You are passing judgement on a whole ethnic group on the basis of one crime by a group of far-Right football hooligans.

What "ethnic group" was I passing judgement on? And "one crime"?? It's a running sore in Israeli football, not a single incident.

If I put up a post condemning racist chanting at an English footie match, would you immediately jump down my throat and claim that I was demonising a "whole ethnic group"? So what's different here? You think I'm chomping at the bit to demonise Jews, is that it? Paranoia of the highest order, Keith, I'm afraid. Just like all those militant Zionist bedfellows of yours, you want to mark out any criticism of Israel as criticism of Jews and shout it down. First you try to trivialise my link, then you try to accuse me of passing judgement on all Jews. Just for once, why can't you do the honest thing and admit that there is a problem of discrimination against Arabs in Israel and that the link revealed one of its instances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:06 AM

Also they are exempted from compulsory military service.

And why do you suppose Israel needs compulsory military service?

Yes, they are exempted, but they can join if they like. The numbers who choose to join are extremely low. That say anything to you about how Arabs in Israel feel thoroughly disenfranchised, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

Arabs are not disenfranchised.
They have the same voting rights and every other right as Jews.

It was a single incident, not a running sore.
Every team has Arab players.
Check your headline, "Israelis shocked by..."
The leadership of the country were moved to denounce it.

"Condemnation of the hardcore fans' behaviour has been swift and harsh.
Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Friday's apparent arson attack was "shameful", adding: "The Jewish people, [who have] suffered boycotts and persecution, should be a light unto other nations."

Beitar's manager, Itzhik Kornfein, told Israel Radio on Friday: "This has gone beyond sports and this has ramifications for Israeli society and for how we look to the world."

Earlier, President Shimon Peres said the entire country was shocked, and former prime minister Ehud Olmert, a Beitar fan for more than 40 years, said that he would no longer attend matches because of fans' behaviour. "Ultimately, this is a matter that concerns all of us. Either we remove this group of racists from our field and cut it off from the team, or we are all like them. Until that happens, I will not go to games," he wrote."

Did you not read your own link Steve?
Why SO DESPERATE to demonize Israel that you have to make shit up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 12:33 PM

""But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it?
No. The subject was persecution of Bedouin.
""

No, the subject was an incursion into Syria and the destruction of Syrian Personnel and Equipment, on the flimsiest of excuses that the equipment was arms for Hezbollah, which has not as yet been proved to be the case.

Or rather that's what it was until the volume of evidence showing precedents for such Israeli behaviour became too strong for you to handle, and you ran for cover in your long established fashion by scattering blame everywhere else but where it belongs.

Egypt is evil, Syria is evil, Hezbollah and Lebanon is evil, Iran is too, and on and on and on ad nauseam, but Israel is a heaven for all its citizens and it is whiter than white and squeaky clean in the way it treats its neighbours...........and that's the point where nausea really sets in.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:25 PM

We seem to have established that moving whole communities to toxic garbage dumps is a "hyped up non-issue."
Let's try this one on equality.
Jim Carroll
"While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:
The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority's awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation.[174]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM

Here you are, Keith. From last April, nothing to do with this latest incident.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/it-s-time-to-intervene-against-racism-in-israeli-soccer-1.422040

Only in Israeli soccer can a club block Arabs from joining its ranks, and harsh violence is treated solely as a disciplinary infraction, to be handled by the Israel Football Association's internal court. The anarchy and lack of police enforcement have turned Israeli soccer into a source of violence, racism and hatred, and has even started to attract dubious characters, who at times manage the teams.

The IFA is subordinate to international sports institutions, such as UEFA, the Union of European Football Associations, and FIFA, the international association, and vehemently refuses the involvement of the Culture and Sports Ministry. But after several years in which Culture and Sports Minister Limor Livnat has proven incapable of getting rid of the rot that has penetrated Israeli soccer, it's time for her to get into the thick of things.

She must adopt the model that has been successfully used in Britain, which combines persistent, preventive police action against hooligans and tough sentences against violent fans. The State of Israel cannot allow a situation in which a sport avidly followed by hundreds of thousands of people, among them many youngsters, turns into an untreatable abscess of racism and violence.


Not demonisation, not made-up shit, Keith. Concern expressed by reasonable people who want to face the truth of a long-time endemic culture in Israel. We tackled it here in the UK. Israel are thirty years behind us. You have to wonder if they have the will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:45 PM

Arabs are not disenfranchised.

I didn't say there were. I said that they might feel disenfranchised. Surely you didn't think I just meant whether they get to vote or not. The fact that you can't tell the difference either means you're having a bloody bad day or that you are being wilfully stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM

INEQUALITY REPORT -THE PALESTINIAN ARAB MINORITY IN ISRAEL

MAIN FINDINGS

THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK OF INEQUALITY
Inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel span all fields of public life and have persisted over Lime. Direct and indirect discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel is ingrained in the legal system and in governmental practice.
The right to equality and freedom from discrimination is not explicitly enshrined in Israeli law as a constitutional right, nor is it protected by statute. While Supreme Court justices have interpreted The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty as comprising the principle of equality, this fundamental right is currentiy protected by judicial interpretation alone.
The definition of the State of Israel as a Jewish state makes inequality and discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel a reality and a political project. The pairing of "Jewish" and "democratic" both codifies discrimination against non-Jewish citizens and impedes the realization of full equality.
Numerous groups of Palestinian citizens of Israel face "compound discrimination" or multiple forms of discrimination on the basis of both their national belonging as Arabs/Palestinians and their membership in one or more other distinct subgroups, such as women, the disabled and the elderly.
More than 30 main laws discriminate, directly or indirectly, against Palestinian citizens of Israel, and the current government coalition has proposed a flood of new racist and discriminatory bills which are at various stages in the legislative process.

CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS
Palestinian citizens of Israel are afforded differential and unequal treatment under Israeli law in the field of citizenship rights. The most important immigration and nationality laws—including the Law of Return (1950) and the Citizenship Law (1952) —privilege Jews and Jewish immigration.
If the spouse of a Palestinian citizen of Israel is a Palestinian resident of the OPT, it has been virtually impossible for him or her to gain residency or citizenship status in Israel since May 2002. This ban on family unification is totally disproportionate to the alleged security reasons cited by Israel to justify it; rather, it is motivated by the state's desire to maintain a Jewish demographic majority.
A new law makes it possible to strip Israeli citizenship for various reasons related to alleged "disloyalty" to the state or "breach of trust", indirectly targeting the citizenship rights of Palestinian citizens. Several attempts to pass additional laws that grant the authority to revoke citizenship and impose further loyalty oaths are currently pending in the Knesset.

INCOME/POVERTY
Arab families are greatly over-represented among Israel's poor: over half of Arab families in Israel are classified as poor, compared to an average poverty rate of one-fifth among all families in Israel. Arab towns and villages are heavily over-represented in the lowest socio-economic rankings, and the unrecognized Arab Bedouin villages in the Naqab are the poorest communities in the state.
Gaps in income and poverty rates are directly related to institutional discrimination against Arab citizens in Israel.
Redistribution of resources and social welfare
Although the right to equality demands that states take positive steps to bridge the gaps between the various population groups, the State of Israel actively seeks to promote and direct resources to Jewish citizens as a privileged majority within the "Jewish State". In many policy areas, including the designation of "National Priority Areas" and the use of the military-service criterion to allocate resources, the state actively preserves and perpetuates inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel.
The state has consistently failed to take adequate and effective action to address the phenomenon of absolute and relative poverty among the Arab minority in Israel. Where it has initiated development programs targeting the Arab minority, such as the "Multi-Year Plan", the state has tended to implement them partially, gradually, or not at all.
Direct state policy measures to reduce poverty disproportionately target Jewish citizens, with the result that poverty rates have fallen far more sharply among Jewish citizens than among their Arab counterparts, and inequalities have consequently persisted.

EMPLOYMENT
Palestinian citizens of Israel often face discrimination in work opportunities, pay and conditions, both because of the inadequate implementation of equal-opportunity legislation and because of entrenched structural barriers, which particularly affect women, and include poor or non-existent public transportation, a lack of industrial zones, and a shortage of state-run daycare centers. Palestinian citizens are also excluded from the labor force by the use of the military-service criterion as a condition for acceptance for employment, often when there is no connection between the nature of the work and military experience.
Unemployment rates remain significantly higher among Arab than among Jewish citizens, and the rate of labor-force participation among Palestinian women citizens of Israel, at just about 20 %, is among the lowest in the world.
Palestinian citizens of Israel in general, and women in particular, continue to be sorely underrepresented in the civil service, the largest employer in Israel (in total, Arabs constitute just around 6% of all civil service employees), despite affirmative-action legislation stipulating fair representation for the Arab minority and for women.
The lack of development and investment in Arab towns and villages inside Israel and the unexploited or under-exploited human resources of the members of the Palestinian minority inhibit the growth of the Israeli economy. The lost potential to Israel's economy has been estimated at around US$ 8 billion per year by the Organisation for Economic Co¬operation and Development (OECD).

http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:26 PM

Don.

No, the subject was an incursion into Syria and the destruction of Syrian Personnel and Equipment,


No Don.
I wanted to keep to that subject because the action was legitimate and justified.
For the same reason all your mates needed to change it, and they won.
So we did end up discussing Bedouin persecution and you and your mates really did not want it mentioned that the ones in Israel are the lucky ones.
Israel is a heaven for all its citizens and it is whiter than white
Never claimed any of that.
Just that it is much better than its neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:46 PM

We seem to have established that moving whole communities to toxic garbage dumps is a "hyped up non-issue."

It certainly is!
It is an ordinary garbage dump such as thousands of Brits, including neighbours and friends, live near in perfect safety.
Because all are equal under the law, the Bedouin were able to use the courts to get the move prevented anyway.
And anyway, anyone harmed by a badly maintained dump would be able to sue those responsible for ruinous compensation.

It really is just a hyped up non-issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:48 PM

Steve, there are football hooligans or equivalent in every country.
You would not judge any other country by its football hooligans, (Scotland?! Belgium?) so why single out Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:52 PM

Jim you could make a list like that about any country.
Hispanics and Blacks in US.
Travellers in Ireland.
Jews and Christians in any Arab country.
Why single out Israel?

At least in Israel the law is unequivocal.
All are equal under the law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:53 PM

Jeri, must I marry all this mob?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:10 PM

This is not just football hooliganism, Keith. It is football crowd racism and it is directed at Arabs and it is endemic in Israeli football. I've given you enough demonstration of that. Deny it if you want, but you'd be wrong. Yes it happened here (note past tense). We dealt with it and, bar a few isolated relatively minor incidents, which are always squashed and dealt with severely, it is now the exception. So much so that even minor outbursts such as one man in the crowd making monkey noises or a footballer making an unpleasant remark to another are not only stamped on but also make big news. Israel are where we were 30 years ago and, apart from the formulaic expressions of disgust from one or two politicians, nothing is done. I suppose a very large number of Israeli football fans think it's OK to behave like that and I don't suppose they'd worry too much about behaving the same discriminatory way in other areas of life. There's plenty of testimony from Arab residents of Israel to confirm that. A very large number of Israeli citizens may not be racist, but the nation of Israel as a whole is one of the most racist nations on the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:52 AM

Israel as a whole is one of the most racist nations on the planet.
This tells us more about you than Israel.
You made up your mind at an early age and see only that which confirms your prejudice.
Israel has equality and anti-discrimination laws which alone make it better than neighbours who deny ctizenship to minorities like Bedouin and Palestinians and legally discriminate against them in employment, housing etc.

Where did those laws come from.
Those racist Israelis demanded them from their leaders and even the most Right wing parties dare not challenge them.
So why single out Israel.

After 80 years of Arabs killing ordinary Jews and their children you would expect Israel to be racist, but mostly they are not.
So why single out Israel.

Racism in football is found globally, so why single out Israel?

Football supporters are a tiny minority of Israelis, and the racists a smaller group still.
It is bigotted prejudice to denounce all Israeli Jews as racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:58 AM

Guardian headline last week.
"Milan friendly abandoned after players protest against racist chants"
Why single out Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:59 AM

Guardian today.
"Massimo Moratti sorry for Inter fans' racist abuse of Mario Balotelli"
Why single out Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:03 AM

11 January 2013 19:52. Anzhi Makhachkala defender Christopher Samba believes the issue of racism is 'killing the game'.
Why single out Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 04:21 AM

This thread sums up your whole attitude to humanity.
You have been presented with a mass of evidence of Israeli atrocities, war crimes, mass murder, the fascism of taking whole community and moving them onto a toxic waste dump, or displacing them in order to expend their own power and influence, built-in inequalities towards non-Jews, the regular slaughter of non-combatants - men, women and children - old and young, destruction of homes, the horrendous use of chemicals on ordinary citizens, destruction of hospitals and schools, the persecution and starvation of a whole nation in pursuit of their land,.....
You have accused groups like the UN and Amnesty of Anti Semitism because they have protested the war crimes being committed which are being defended by US vetos, supported by Britain and all the other gofers.
You have described three thousand murdered refugees as "the enemy", in order to explain away Israel's part in their massacre.
Now you totally ignore an officially and carefully carried out report on the Apartheid-like built-in inequalities of the Israeli state, totally at odds with your own land-flowing-with-milk-and-and honey description of what is really happening there.
YOU OFFER NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER TO YOUR VICIOUSLY DISHONEST CLAIMS, JUST DENIAL.
THERE WAS A TIME WHEN YOU'D HIDE BEHIND CAREFULLY SELECTED CUT-'N-PASTES, (SOMETIMES DOCTORED, BUT AT LEAST YOU'D PUT IN SOME EFFORT INTO SEARCHING THEM OUT). NOW YOU SEEM TO HAVE ABANDONED EVEN THAT, REPLACING THEM WITH EXCUSES OF YOUR OWN INVENTION

You show not a shred of humanity for the victims of Israeli terror - they are, in your own words, "the enemy" and deserving of ill treatment and slaughter.
You show no personal understanding or even interest in the subjects under discussion, which you turn into a war of attrition which you will filibust out of existence until your 'last man standing' approach drives away those genuinely interested and concerned who do bring some knowledge and humanity.
You don't even appear to be interested in the subjects you take over and destroy; if you were, you'd show some fore-knowledge - Travellers, British Muslims, victims of Syrian killers, even Ireland, which you claim to have some connection with - you appear to have neither feeling, understanding nor interest in the mass of humanity that you insult by using as a platform for your attention-seeking ego-tripping.
I said earlier that the only reason for taking part in these threads is to allow you to show us what a vacuously inhuman individual you are, but you seem to manage that without anybody's help nowadays.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:00 AM

I offer objectivity Jim.
Why call it a toxic waste dump when it is not?
It is dishonest.

That massive spew of hate against me, but not one single challenge to anything I have said, because it is all honest, objective and true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:01 AM

"I offer objectivity Jim."
You offer nothing Keith other than race or culture hatred, your bigoted defence could not in a thousand years be described as "objective"
Anything that (admitted by the state authorities, and by scientist - look up the definition) poisons water is TOXIC - Children playing on or near rubbish dumps of that type and size could easily be poisoned that makes it TOXIC - show how this isn't the case.
The forcible moving of an entire ethnic group to an area where they are likely to be poisoned and where, even if this was not the case, is STATE FASCISM .
"It is dishonest."
No Keith; dishonesty is ignoring researched information, or denying it out of hand without proof - you do that constantly - especially on the last couple of threads - this one in particular where you have not even tried to offer either knowledge nor documented proof.
"hate against me"
I don't hate you Keith - I don't know you, nor do I want to.
I detest the racism and murderous bigotry that you persistently defend.
I also detest what you have done to this forum. Between us we have destroyed thread after thread - I realise my part in this and apologise - I do not apologise for being concerned enough for trying to stop your using Mudcat as a racist soapbox, which is what I have responded to -rabbit-in-headlights.
You, on the other hand, refuse to acknowledge what damage we have done between us - see your gobsmacking postings to the 'Mudcat DISCUSSION@ thread - unbelievable arrogance!!
I defy anybody here to read through the threads that you have dominated and filibusted and claim that your input has not been racist or bigoted - starting with this one and going on tgo your Muslim prejudice, Traveller signs, Syria... et al efforts.
Incidently - you ask why Israel - this forum is about Israel - that is what we are discussing.
But far more importantly, I can think of no greater insult to the dead and Auschwitz and Balsen.... for a mainly Jewish state to behave in the same manner to other races as that which sent six million Jews to the gas chambers - that is what you have persistently defended here.
And you have the nerve to call us Antisemites!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM

There are dumps for toxic waste, and there are ordinary garbage dumps like this one.

Those responsible for the dumps have to make them safe for the neighbours or they get dragged through the courts.

It is not a whole ethnic group being moved.
How big would the dump have to be?
Try to be rational and objective, and stop trying to make it personal again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:14 AM

I defy anybody here to read through the threads that you have dominated and filibusted and claim that your input has not been racist or bigoted

On those threads people did just that Jim.
Remember?
There is no need to make these debates personal.
Just challenge what is posted instead of attacking the poster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:21 PM

It is bigotted prejudice [sic] to denounce all Israeli Jews as racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Yes, it would be had I done it. But I didn't, did I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:37 PM

""There is no need to make these debates personal.
Just challenge what is posted instead of attacking the poster.
""

There is a very good idea. How about you putting your money where your mouth is and responding to what is posted instead of dismissing or ignoring it to chant your mindless "Israel is good, Israel does no wrong, and anyway everybody else is worse" mantra?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 01:19 PM

In former posts I maintained that there were some Israelis who didn't go along with the knee-jerk AIPAC propaganda or the Netanyahu administration. There are enlightened people in Israel who see what their government is doing as a dead-end street.
No country has been able to maintain its reputation as an occupier forever. History will reveal their dictatorial status.

The Palestinians are being persecuted by the Netanyahu regime. The evidence is abundant for this and only those who have a bias are in denial about this.

In must be restated that Judaism is a religion and that this tends to obscure a reasoned approach to the resolution of this issue. You have hot-headed proponents of Israel yelling a lot now as their government's actions are being disclosed internationally. There are many of Jewish heritage or background who condemn Israel's aggression.
Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Norman Finkelstein, Uri Avnery, and others both religious and non-religious are becoming more vocal. Boycott, Sanctions and Disinvestment is one way to deal with Israel's intransigence.

This is not an issue of taking sides. The former violence on the Hamas side has to be taken into account but at the moment, Palestinians have opted for non-violent resistance to make their case. Israel responds by tyrannical violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM

Sorry Steve.
It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as most racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Don, If I missed something it was not deliberate.
I have been fielding a mass of stuff from you three.
Post it again please.

Stringsinger, there has always been vigorous dissent and opposition in Israel.
It is called democracy, and it is the only one around there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:01 PM

Keith said:

It is bigotted prejudice [sic] to denounce all Israeli Jews as racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

But now Keith, realising that this antisemitism slur (from a man who claims he never gets personal) bears not a shred of truth, says this:

It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as most racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

I actually said that Israel is one of the most racist countries.

And I've repeatedly pointed out that the incident in question was not isolated. I showed that football racism is endemic in Israel. And I'm a football fanatic myself (though I'm keeping quiet about Liverpool after last night). If you attend a match and indulge in racist chanting or attacks, you are a fanatic all right but you are not a football fanatic. This is your third or fourth attempt to try to sidestep this issue by pretending it's only footie/an isolated incident/a tiny minority/it's all worse somewhere else/it's just football fanatics. Keith, this has been going on for decades. It has not been addressed. The racism - and racist violence - is directed against Arabs. I think there's evidence here that it shows the state doesn't take racism against Arabs seriously. And why should anyone be surprised by that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:10 PM

It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as one of the most racist in the world because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:20 PM

""Don, If I missed something it was not deliberate.
I have been fielding a mass of stuff from you three.
Post it again please.
""

IF you missed something? If it weren't so bloody consistent I might laugh about that.

And what precisely killed your last servant?

That material doesn't evaporate. It is still exactly where I left it and you skipped past it.

Go look, if you are interested, which I doubt.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Jim Hawkins
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:39 PM

The Middle East has given the world three intolerant and xenophobic religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - that the world would be much better off without.

Modern Judaism, or Zionism, follows the mythical example of Joshua, taking land by force and genocide. Among the first victims of the Christian Crusades were other Christians, Semites who happened to look like Arabs. The Koran can be interpreted to inspire suicidal murderers with the promise of virgins in Paradise.

All three play the religion card when criticized, especially the Jews.

All are inspired by a common God who is nothing more than an invisible friend, albeit a malevolent and hateful figment of the collective imagination of past millennia.

Somehow the concept of do-as-you-would-be-done-by has been lost in translation. A plague on all their houses!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:17 PM

GENEVA | Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:43pm EST

(Reuters) - U.N. human rights investigators called on Israel on Thursday to halt settlement expansion and withdraw all half a million Jewish settlers from the occupied West Bank, saying that its practices could be subject to prosecution as possible war crimes.

A three-member U.N. panel said private companies should stop working in the settlements if their work adversely affected the human rights of Palestinians, and urged member states to ensure companies respected human rights.

"Israel must cease settlement activities and provide adequate, prompt and effective remedy to the victims of violations of human rights," Christine Chanet, a French judge who led the U.N. inquiry, told a news conference.

The settlements contravened the Fourth Geneva Convention forbidding the transfer of civilian populations into occupied territory and could amount to war crimes that fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC), the United Nations report said.

"To transfer its own population into an occupied territory is prohibited because it is an obstacle to the exercise of the right to self-determination," Chanet said.

About 250 settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been established since the 1967 Middle East war and they hold an estimated 520,000 settlers, according to the U.N. report. The settlements impede Palestinian access to water and farmland.

The settlements were "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination," it said.

After the General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians' status at the world body, Israel said it would build 3,000 additional settler homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - areas Palestinians want for a future state, along with the Gaza Strip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:49 PM

That's right, Freda. But just watch the bleating from Israel and/or the US when somebody else defies the UN. North Korea this very day, for example (who I do not defend, I hasten to add - I make the point simply to show the sheer hypocrisy of the US/Israel axis). Or when Iran "threatens" to have a nuclear weapon or two...


It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as one of the most racist in the world because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Hello, we seem to have a parrot in the house. No, wait a minute... parrots may keep repeating themselves, just like Keith, but at least they don't do it in the hope of making what they're saying more true...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:44 AM

Don, I have gone right through the thread but found nothing.
I think and believe that I have replied to all points put.
I think and believe that your claim is malicious.
If you want my take on something, don't play games, put it up.

Steve, parrots repeat the same thing.
I modified my statement each time to comply with your objection to the wording.
If you have no more objections to the wording, please reply to the substance.

Freda, do you have a comment on the subject of the OP?
To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM

"Don, I have gone right through the thread but found nothing.
I think and believe that I have replied to all points put.
I think and believe that your claim is malicious.
If you want my take on something, don't play games, put it up."
This is arrogance in the extreme - why on earth should Don, or anybody "put up" anything for somebody who displays both an ignorance and a disinterest in this subject.
You have "replied to" nothing - you have simply DENIED the evidence put up by others - ALL THE EVIDENCE.

You seem to have appointed yourself as some sort of arbiter on a subject on which you have no knowledge whatever, indicating that you have also have no interest either.
Your sole input here has been to dismiss out of hand and without evidence, the knowledge other contributors obviously possess, and to either deny again without evidenc), or totally ignore reports, newspaper articles, eye witness accounts, even statements by Israeli government bodies... that others have taken the trouble to offer to this discussion.
YOU HAVE NEITHER PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THIS SUBJECT, NOR THE ENERGY OR INTELLIGENCE TO GO AND ARM YOURSELF WITH ANY         
Yet you have the astounding arrogance to ask.
"Don, If I missed something it was not deliberate.
I have been fielding a mass of stuff from you three.
Post it again please."
You have been "fielding" nothing - if this is not the case, show us one scrap of credible evidence that you have presented other than 'Israel said they didn't do it your honour'.
"I think and believe that I have replied to all points put."
You have ignored or denied every single scrap of evidence of Israel's war crimes and abuses out of hand (without even bothering your arse to provide any contrary evidence of your own).
You are not an 'expert witness', you are both arrogant and lazy enough to demand that people bring their opinions to you for your consideration - don't psychiatrists have a word for that?
One again you have dominated a subject on which you know nothing whatever - your postings to date tot up to approaching 90 - sometimes in blocks of two, three, four, even five on one occasion - a little short of three times more than any other single contributor here.
"Freda, do you have a comment on the subject of the OP?"
And please don't talk down to other members of this forum who obviously have far more knowledge, intelligence and interest in these subjects than you do - just as you show clearly that you have no understanding of the subject, neither are you a chairmen of this discussion, so please don't attempt to pretend you have the authority or cudos to make demands here.
And by the way - please do not claim this to be a personal attack - it is a comment on your behaviour here and on this forum as a whole - others have pointed this out to you, here and elsewhere and it appears to be deteriorating with every thread you participate in.
But please don't despair - as serious as your case seems to be, help may be available, even at this late stage!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

Sorry about all the red - finger slipped
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:12 AM

That happens a lot Jim.
I always thought it was deliberate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM

"That happens a lot Jim.
I always thought it was deliberate"
That is an extremely small minded way of avoiding the points purt to you
Answer the questions - mine and everybody else's
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:34 AM

OP Keith, do you mean Other Party?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:50 AM

Sorry Freda.
I meant the opening post of this thread.

Jim, if you want me to respond to something do not bury it in screenfulls of multicoloured text.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:06 AM

"Jim, if you want me to respond to something do not bury it in screenfulls of multicoloured text."
I do not want you to reply to anything - your opinion is of no interest to me whatever.
I do want you justify the fact that you one again you totally dominate a subject on which you have no knowledge whatever, and will, because of your insistence on having the last word, eventually run it into the ground.
I want you to justify your behavior in lying about other people's input into this tread while claiming that you have answered all the questions put to you, you have brought nothing of any interest or substance to this subject.
And most of all I WANT YOU TO STOP ATTEMPTING TO CONTROL THIS THREAD BY TELLING OTHERS HOW TO MAKE YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS - YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY HERE - DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME HOW TO MAKE MY POSTINGS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:16 AM

Re what I think of Palestinians, I condemn Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which conduct attacks on Israel. But I also am equally concerned about Israeli attacks in Palestine.

I don't condemn individual Jews for the actions of their leaders, just as I don't condemn individual Palestinians for the actions of those who choose violence. But I support and respect those Israelis, Palestinians and international peace workers in the area, who act or speak out for peace in the region.

I appreciate I'm lucky to live in a safe country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:24 AM

Thanks Freda. I feel exactly the same, but I do feel that the Israeli action that instigated this thread was justified.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:30 AM

Re what I think of Palestinians, I condemn Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad, when they conduct attacks on Israeli civilians. But, equally, I condemn Israeli land-grabs as well as attacks in Palestine and am appalled by the routine disproportionate response of the IDF and the wanton destruction of innocent Palestinian civilians and their homes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:13 AM

""Don, I have gone right through the thread but found nothing.
I think and believe that I have replied to all points put.
I think and believe that your claim is malicious.
If you want my take on something, don't play games, put it up.
""

I have posted numerous accounts, but the most important are the ones I have VERY CLEARLY stated as being from Associated Press via ABC News.

The closest you came to answering ANY of the points therein was your usual mantra "Not true, and anyway Egypt, Syria, Iran (delete inapplicable) is far worse"

You never answer points put to you. You trot out the same tired platitudinous repetition of your standard mantra, "Israel cannot ever be criticised because they are never wrong"

It is useless to deny it when it is obvious throughout every thread you post to.

And to cap it all off, you've just done the self same thing to Freda, ignoring the facts she presented, and telling her off for changing the subject, you arrogant twerp, something that you were busy doing last time I addressed you.

If you really can't find the posts you ignored, try opening your eyes while looking. I'm told that this can be surprisingly effective. I won't suggest opening the mind, as you are clearly incapable of doing so.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:20 AM

""Thanks Freda. I feel exactly the same, but I do feel that the Israeli action that instigated this thread was justified.""

You feel that any and every Israeli action is justified, as your posting record on numerous threads clearly shows.

That's why a hollow laugh is the only possible response to your ludicrous claim to share Freda's properly balanced point of view.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:51 PM

Don I still can not find a point of yours that I have missed.
If there REALLY is one, stop playing games and tell us what it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 06:54 AM

Trouble is Keith, I spend time reposting what you didn't bother to read and digest, and didn't answer in any comprehensible way, merely nitpicking a single phrase or sentence to deny, and what happens?

The definition of insanity is constantly repeating an experiment in the hope of getting different results.

I'm not going to do it, because I am not the one who is playing games, and I am well aware that you don't want it repeated so that you might answer, but merely to avoid answering as before.

If you want it, GO LOOK FOR IT!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM

So you COULD say what I missed, but you don't want to.
Who will believe that?

If I have missed something say what it is and put me on the spot.
But you can't.
The claim was malicious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

"The claim was malicious."
The claim has been made by many people with whom you have debated (sic) that you refuse to read what people place before you, - you have a long reputation of ignoring what people put up because it doesn't suit your case.
You have either denied without proof, or totally ignored anything that doesn't suit your case, then you have gone on to claim that posters haven't provided proof.
This has become an increasingly habitual practice of yours lately.
Should Don bother (I certainly wouldn't) to put up his evidence again, it will be totally ignored, you will continue to filibust this thread and eventually claim that nobody has put up anything to back up their arguments.
This forum is scattered with threads on which you have done this - your efforts on the 'Traveller Signs' thread was breathtaking.
Honesty doesn't appear to be one of your virtues, though, going by your practice of denying things that are in full view for all to see, stupidity certainly is!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:13 AM

GREG AND KENDALL.....READ THIS

You two crack me up.....and btw, is "crack up" a pornographic expression?   LOL.....


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:15 AM

Do you know what I missed then Jim?
Embarrass me.
Post it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:51 AM

Hey, Spaw-

Good old Wendell Phillips, eh? He never gets the credit he deserves.

Be well-

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM

Don't want to "embarrass" you Keith - you're making a far better job of showing yourself as a rabid fanatic than any of us possibly could.
However, as with my offer to Bruce (which he sadly ignored), I'll do a deal with you.
Below is a list of links which you have ignored, or dismissed as "off topic", gullibility on my part, or irrelevant (I particularly liked the description of moving the Bedouins to a toxic site as a "hyped up non-issue")
The list does not include the evidence that came without links; that would easily more than double the total.
You have set yourself up as the proud defender of the Israeli regime and have claimed to have responded to every point.
The deal is - wait for it - I will happily point out Don's input to this thread if you show us how you have addressed this evidence.
I'm feeling in a particularly generous mood today - must have been that tremendous blast of music last night!
Yours in anticipation.
Jim Carroll

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/#ixzz2JxSAeUMd
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/19/262446/israels-american-license-for-genocide/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement
http://www.davidsheen.com/racism/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_acfNfFkgw
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2012/10/23/survey-of-israeli-racism-58-of-jews-label-their-state-apartheid/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/briefing-papers/1230-israels-discrimination-against-its-arab-citizens
http://electronicintifada.net/content/un-body-appalled-israels-racial-segregation-policies/11065
http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=296430
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3480345,00.html
http://www.policymic.com/articles/21819/women-s-rights-in-israel-girls-as-young-as-3-face-gender-discrimination
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israeli-rabbis-ban-home-sale-and-rental-non-jews-2010-12-07
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33429.htm
http://www.sciforums.com/BBC-on-Israel-s-Negev-Bedouin-policy-shame-t-71060.html
http://palsolidarity.org/2011/12/khan-al-ahmar-forced-expulsion-of-bedouins-from-area-c/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/jun/17/egypt-bedouin-risk-of-exclusion-citizenship-rights
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israel-cancel-plan-forcibly-displace-jahalin-bedouin-communities-2012-02-08
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:50 AM

Now he'll refuse until you make 'em into blue clickies Jim.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM

Well, y'all can natter at Keith to your hearts' content, but the fact remains that Israel was not condemned by the UN for the attack on Syria. The OP "stretched" the truth a little, and all you straight-forward folks who have chosen to fall in line as soon as Israel is mentioned in any context--whether it's true or not--make your subsequent arguments shallower than they need be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:38 AM

Jim and Don, none of that appeared on this thread.
I have never even been in a discussion of them.

Don, are you no longer claiming I have missed stuff on this thread?

You have both been caught being dishonest again.

"I have posted numerous accounts, but the most important are the ones I have VERY CLEARLY stated as being from Associated Press via ABC News."

Yes, and I responded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:54 AM

"Not true", or "Didn't happen", or "They closed the tunnels", are not answers, they avoid answering.

You routinely post such nonsensical responses to avoid having to justify your attitudes to a multitude of subjects.

A full screen of evidence that there is more than one possible reason gets the response "They closed the tumnnels".

Duhh! We knew that F**Kwit, we were discussing why, and who was responsible.

What do you believe was the constructive contribution to that discussion resulting from your inane comment?

Dishonesty is very much a part of your bag of tricks, not ours. You don't even post opinion any more, just denial, and your input has become a pathetic waste of hot air.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 11:31 AM

Jim and Don, none of that appeared on this thread.
Keith - every single link was cut'n pasted from higher up the thread.
Don't you ever get tired of lying in public?
It's very true that you have never been near them - if you mean you never bothered to read them.
As I said, ignored them; you dismissed them out of hand without proof, - several you responded to as anti-Israeli (implying Antisemitic, one you described as "gullible" and the Bedouin-to-toxic site you described an an "over-hyped non event (after described in glowing terms how well they were treated).
Stupidity = lying with the proof in front of you.
I take it we have no deal then?
999
"who have chosen to fall in line as soon as Israel is mentioned in any context"
Perhaps you'd like to give an opinion on Sabra/Shatila (an example of poor little Israel's take on democracy!
Don
Must learn to do the blue clickies.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM

Jim, Don accused me of missing points he had made.
I had missed none.
I always said that a thirty year old massacre of Arabs by Arabs was nothing to do with this discussion, and I have read everything you have ever posted on that subject over the years.

Don"They closed the tunnels".

Duhh! We knew that F**Kwit, we were discussing why, and who was responsible.


I have no way of knowing, anymore than you or Jim.
The government and security services and military of Egypt have formed a firm impression over the last seven months.
We do not know what it is, but it drove them to close and flood all the tunnels from Gaza.
They obviously do not think it was Mossad!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 05:01 PM

Anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist are two different things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:38 PM

""but the fact remains that Israel was not condemned by the UN""

TRUE!!....And we all know why!   

The USA vetoes any UN move to bring Israel to heel, because it is terrified of the PRO Israel Zionist lobby inside its borders.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:56 PM

""I have no way of knowing, anymore than you or Jim.
The government and security services and military of Egypt have formed a firm impression over the last seven months.
We do not know what it is, but it drove them to close and flood all the tunnels from Gaza.
They obviously do not think it was Mossad!
""

At last!! A statement from Keith A that has the ring of truth!!....ABOUT BLOODY TIME!

He ""has no way of knowing, anymore than myself or Jim""

Yet he has decided that his lack of knowledge means Israel were not involved and has, without such knowledge, categorically stated, AS A FACT, his opinion, unsupported by any such knowledge, that Hamas were responsible.

Of course, if Mossad had masterminded a scheme to provide such an excuse to lock down Gaza, Egypt would have responded in the same manner exactly, which is precisely what the Muslim Brotherhood have claimed to have happened.

But Keith, of course, knows better. His idols would never do such a thing, would they?

NEWSWFLASH!!.....They've DONE WORSE, which is where the relevance of Sabra/Shatila comes into play,......as proof that they have DONE MUCH WORSE!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:11 PM

TRUE!!....And we all know why!   

The USA vetoes any UN move to bring Israel to heel, because it is terrified of the PRO Israel Zionist lobby inside its borders.

US can only veto Security Council resolutions.
There is nothing to stop Ki Moon making a personal criticism or anyone within UN staring a debate.
No-one has this time.

Yet he has decided that his lack of knowledge means Israel were not involved and has, without such knowledge, categorically stated, AS A FACT, his opinion, unsupported by any such knowledge, that Hamas were responsible.
No.
I just pointed out that Egypt felt it necessary to close and flood all the tunnels from Gaza. A drastic step.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:03 AM

Am I to take it that you still haven't read the links?
I know what your personal outlook on life is and I detest it.
I know how you regard entire cultures and races; I've told you what I think of that, many times.
I know how you regard humanity - the ones you don't like should be moved to toxic rubbish dumps (only don't call them toxic)
If you are not prepared to read the facts (as others see them) and put forward facts (as you see them) of you own (not other people's) and debate them, or even look at them, what's the point?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:07 AM

I have read all that stuff.
None of it is new, and it is irrelevant here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 05:51 AM

"None of it is new, and it is irrelevant here."
You didn't even admit its existence - the report on the intended poisoning of the Bedouins relates directly to your claim of good treatment of them by Israel - the The Inequality Report on The Palestinian Arab Minority in Israel, relates directly to you claim that all citizens of Israel have equal right - the report contains such gems as:
"Case Study: The October 2000 protest killings In October 2000, Israeli police officers killed 13 unarmed Palestinian citizens of Israel during demonstrations staged to protest against Israel's brutal policies in the OPT. During the demonstrations, Israeli police used live ammunition, rubber-coated steel bullets and tear gas against the protestors. Many protestors who were killed were shot in the head or chest by snipers. As a result of the lethal force employed by the police to quash the demonstrations, hundreds of Arab citizens were also injured and more than 1,000 were arrested and detained. Contrary to the recommendations of the official Or Commission of Inquiry in 2003, in January 2008, the Attorney General decided to close the files and not to issue a single indictment against anyone responsible for the killings.221 Until today, ten years after the killings, no police officer, commander or political leader has been held accountable for the deaths."
ALL OF THESE LINKS ARE DIRECTLY RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION AND YOUR CONTEMPT FOR BOTH FACTS AND THE FORUM MEMBERS WHO PRODUCE THEM PROVES YOU TO BE A RABID FANATIC WHO IS USING THE DEMOCRACY AFFOREDED TO YOU BY THIS FORUM AS A SOAPBOX FOR YOUR EXTREMIST VIEWS
Your dismissal of information put up for you out of hand shows you to have no interest in the views or the knowledge of other forum members.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 05:56 AM

As I said, nothing new.
All old stuff.
"October 2000"


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:15 AM

"October 2000"
Which proves without question that you are lying - you have not read the link provided, not any of the others, or you would have responded to them
The report is dated March 2011 and is a survey of the built in inequalities of Israeli society, which has led to it being descrimed "the Apartheid State".
You and Bruce have been hiding behind the Holocaust, which ended 68 years ago - both of you have suggested that those who criticise Israel are Antisemitic, and if Israel didn't act as they do it would provoke a new holocaust.
The links are "not all old - far from it - they range back over the last decade and they relate directly to your claims.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:55 AM

Shall I remind you what happens to peaceful protesters in the surrounding countries?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:57 AM

""So we did end up discussing Bedouin persecution and you and your mates really did not want it mentioned that the ones in Israel are the lucky ones.""

Read the following from the Guardian May 2012.

-snip- ""Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.

Thabet Abu Rass, the Negev director for Adalah, an organisation that offers legal advice to the Arab minority in Israel, describes a painstaking fight for the rights of unrecognised villagers. "We have to petition the high court for each basic service, like water. Most of the time we win the cases – but the problem is implementation. Sometimes it takes 10 years. Or they grant us 'minimal access' to water, which means one tap three miles from the village."

According to a pending law for the regulation of Bedouin settlement in the Negev, due to be presented to the parliament this month, these villages will be evacuated in the next five years and ecah of their inhabitants compensated to move to one of seven government-planned townships – the poorest towns in Israel, with some of the highest crime rates.
""-snip-

Now tell me that, because others are treated worse, you would consider yourself lucky to live as they describe and have a future in ""one of seven government-planned townships – the poorest towns in Israel, with some of the highest crime rates."".

Go on Keith, convince us.

Me and my mates want to know just how lucky you think they are in the light of that existence.

It's one thing to have laws, quite another to enforce without fear or favour, and it's abundantly clear that Israel is a long way from that standard.

If they treat their own like that, what chance for neighbouring Arab countries?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 07:06 AM

BTW, that came from one of Jim's ""irrelevant"" links and was dated just nine months ago.

Care to reassess their relevance?

Of course not. Being forced to recognise facts would kill you.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 07:19 AM

We have been over it endlessly.
A crowded modern country has to restrict the freedom of nomadic people to set up where they want, but they are equal under the law, and have full citizenship rights unlike their unfortunate, excluded, marginalised and persecuted brethren next door in Egypt.

BBC Tuesday.
(Kuwait)Noting Bedouin unhappiness with a lack of services, ongoing corruption and what they see as growing state repression, Mr Davidson said: "The al-Sabahs are breaking the social contract with the tribes... tribal discontent has always been there but nothing close to this as ever happened before."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:51 AM

"Shall I remind you what happens to peaceful protesters in the surrounding countries?"
NO YOU Shall not, IT HAS NO RELEVANCE WHATEVER TO HOW ISRAEL BEHAVES TOWARDS WHAT YOU HAVE DESCRINBED AS "IT'SD ENEMIES" - I AM QUITE AWARE OF THE BEHAVIOUR OF RELIGION BASED OR INFLUENCED STATES
There is no country that has a worse record of massacres than Nazi Germany - does this make all massacres less than that in any way excusable?
Israel's behavior is the question here - not anywhere else.
Can I remind you that you have pointed out Egypt's military government's behaviour towards minorities while at the same time, are happy to support their flooding life-saving tunnels.
The history of Israel is one of massacres - especially of civilians. Israel started its independence by massacring villagers by hurling hand grenades into occupied homes. You've had the information on this.
The Sabra/Shatila massacre is particularly relevant in view of the possibility of Palestinian being made into refugees.
The vast majority of Palestinian casualties in the conflict(far more than that of Israelis - look up the figures if you don's believe this) have been unarmed and unresistant civilians (also well documented).   
There is not a time limit on any massacre - IF THERE IS PLEASE TELL ME WHEN IT CEASES TO BE A RELEVANT ISSUE - PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE TO AVOID THIS QUESTION
Israel would long ago have been tried for war crimes had it not been supported by US vetoes.
"but they are equal under the law,"
The law pays lip service to equality - the reality is gross inequality based on race - I didn't even start to gather the mass of information on the restrictions of sales of property to Arabs (and even Gentiles)
READ THE TOTALLY INDEPENDENT REPORT WHICH YOU HAVE LYINGLY CLAIMED TO HAVE READ AND SHOW US WHERE IT IS FALSE.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:55 AM

"A crowded modern country has to restrict the freedom of nomadic people to set up where they want,"
You are now supporting the forcible displacement of nomadic tribes from their traditional hiomes (in this case, to toxic ground) in order to build settlements for Israelis.
Further and further out of your racist closet.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:58 AM

Why is it unreasonable to make a compare Israel with its neighbours?
If you do, it comes out the best by far.
Why single out Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 09:01 AM

Jim, both our countries restrict the freedom of nomadic people to settle wherever they want, and so does every other country.
Why single out Israel?

The history of Israel is one of massacres - especially of civilians.
I refute that, but there have been plenty in the surrounding countries.
Why single out Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 10:55 AM

""A crowded modern country has to restrict the freedom of nomadic people to set up where they want, but they are equal under the law, and have full citizenship rights unlike their unfortunate, excluded, marginalised and persecuted brethren next door in Egypt.""

You are a caution mate, a real good laugh! Either you once again decided not to read one of my posts, or you have a three hour memory span, or most likely,having no answer you shoot off at a tangent to talk about Egypt. CONCENTRATE NOW, I know you can get it if you try:-

""Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.

These are not nomads Keith, get it? NOT NOMADS!

What we have here is cultivatable land which Israel wants for Israelis (as soon as the Bedouins are shifted, Israelis move in), you see in spite of your impassioned support of your idols, equality to them means "equality for us and screw the Arabs", because they do not see Bedouins as being Israeli.

Now read the whole thing and see if you can get your head round the rest, which describes the depths to which Israel will sink to displace Arab farmers and put them into townships in the poorest regions in high crime areas. Do you still say the caring Israelis are trying to improve their condition?

Whatever is happening in other countries, APARTHEIDT is alive and well and 58% of Israelis think so too, but most of them don't care, according to one of those links you think irrelevant.

Don T.

Whatever


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:10 AM

"Why single out Israel?"

We know damn well why they single out Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:13 AM

""Jim, both our countries restrict the freedom of nomadic people to settle wherever they want, and so does every other country.
Why single out Israel?
""

When is it going to seep through into whatever you call a brain, that those particular ""NOMADS"" have been farming that land for nearly ten times longer than Israel has EXISTED!

Bedouins raising cattle since the 1500s (C16)= 600 years
Birth of Israel 1948                   (C20)= 65 years

Since the birth of Israel thriving farmers have been fenced in off grazing land, such that one farm which used to graze 1500 sheep and 30 camels, can now only support 150 sheep and 1 camel, and most of what they fetch has to be spent on feed.

You really should have read Jim's links and you would have known these things instead of making a complete arse of yourself.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM

"""Why single out Israel?"

We know damn well why they single out Israel.
""

YES Bobad. We do it because we're sick of seeing atrocities and crimes against humanity covered up for just one nation by a fawning West which feels bad about the idea of telling off the "Eternal Victims"!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 12:26 PM

"Why single out Israel?"
I doidn't single out Israel - you did, you told us how well the Bedouin people were treated in Israel - a reminder:
"Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
09 Feb 13 - 10:16 AM
"....likewise Bedouin."
You then went on to give your approval for them being moved onto a toxic site - you tried to deny it was toxic, even though youy were given an Israeli Government Department report on it's toxicity if it gets inbto the water supply, told of the likelihood of it exploding (also a Government department report), and the inadequate fencing that would allow children to enter grounds that would remain toxic for year, if not decades.
Your pointing out Britain's deplorable record on Travellers rings a little hollow after your opening a threads in an an (unsuccessful) attempt to disprove one of the most common acts of prejudice in these islands.
"Why Israel"
One more time:
There is no country that has a worse record of massacres than Nazi Germany - does this make all massacres less than that in any way excusable?
Israel's behavior is the question here - not anywhere else.
You do not judge the behaviour of one country - show me why this is not true.
"If you do, it comes out the best by far."
No they don't - show me one country that has taken part in the slaughter of 3,000 refugees.
You have been given the death toll of this present conflict: Israel's continuing slaughter of civilians in this conflict is unequalled by that of any other protagonist in the Middle East
And to repeat my request:
There is not a time limit on any massacre - IF THERE IS PLEASE TELL ME WHEN IT CEASES TO BE A RELEVANT ISSUE - PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE TO AVOID THIS QUESTION

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 12:29 PM

Correction
You do not judge the behaviour of one country by comparing it with the acts of the other - show me why this is not true.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 03:41 PM

"Israel condemned by UN"

..Well of course they did!..The only five countries in the security council, U.S., U.K, France, Russia and China just happen to be the world's largest supplier of arms, both legal and illegal, to the rest of the world(U.N.)! Why shouldn't they vote to escalate another region in turmoil...........it would stimulate their economies and make profits for the illegal arms trade, as well....and the same people would profit!
Way to go guys!..Did real great in Syria, as well!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 03:44 PM

"We do it because we're sick of seeing atrocities and crimes against humanity"

There are atrocities and crimes against humanity of a much greater magnitude than what you accuse Israel of happening in many places of the world yet you single out Israel for your obsessive opprobrium - why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM

"There are atrocities and crimes against humanity of a much greater magnitude than what you accuse Israel"
Perhaps you can explain why this makes Israel's serial crimes against humanity and war crimes acceptable - Keith can't?
This seems to now be the knee-jerk defence for those crimes and massacres.
Why - because Israel is a terrorist state armed with nuclear weapons, protected by a US veto and is risking war in the Middle East in order to expand its territory - hope you've got a fallout shelter in your back yard.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:34 PM

Jim Carroll: "...- because Israel is a terrorist state armed with nuclear weapons, protected by a US veto and is risking war in the Middle East in order to expand its territory - hope you've got a fallout shelter in your back yard."

Don't worry...the only way that would happen is by a 'non-co-operating, rogue client'

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:04 PM

Jim, If you could make your posts more reasoned and rational, it would be easier to respond.

Don, the Bedouin were nomadic and issues arise when they build.
At least in Israel they have citizenship rights and the protection of the law.
As a community they flourish, their numbers increasing at an extraordinary rate.

Jim, there was no toxic waste at the dump.
It is not a toxic dump.
Ordinary garbage causes those problems but is easily managed.
These are local issues and very few Bedouin are even involved.


No they don't - show me one country that has taken part in the slaughter of 3,000 refugees.

Not Israel for a start.
If you mean Sabra Shatilla, the killing was done by local militia who were Arabs.
Syrian massacres have gone well beyond those numbers just in the last year.
The later massacres in the Lebanese refugee camps also compare.
Why single out Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:13 PM

I see where you're coming from.

The Irish anti-Israel sickness isn't limited to Ireland


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 03:48 AM

Your excuses for not replying to simple questions are really not worth responding to - if you can't understand what people say to you, or dispute it with rational argument, stop dominating and filibusting threads - these are not complicated subjects - massacring unarmed non combatants is unacceptable whoever does it, and using the behaviour of others to excuse it is utterly dishonest and makes you part of those war crimes and human rights abuses, just as those who knew about the Holocaust and did nothing allowed themselves to become part of it.
If there's anything here you don't understand, please point it out and I'll try to explain it in the 'soundbite size' postings' that you seem to favour, otherwise, stop pretending you don't understand what is being said.
Claiming my arguments are un"reasonable" or ir"rational" without "reasonable" or "rational" arguments of your own really is scraping the bottom of the barrel - PATHETIC AND MEANINGLESS, to say the least.
STOP BEING AN APOLOGIST FOR WAR CRIMINALS.
You claim to have disputed evidence put forward of Israel's appalling human rights record - you certainly have not. You have consistently denied documented facts, which is a different thing altogether.
We have provided proof, of Sabra/Shatila - you denied it, chemical weapons - you denied it - massacres - you denied it - you denied it - illegal settlements- you denied it - systematic humiliation - you denied it - attempts to starve into submission- you denied it - - you denied it - slaughter of civilians, - you denied it - the destruction of homes, hospitals and schools, - you denied it - destroying the health of children and those in need of medicine...... and a whole host of human (or should I say inhuman) abuses - you denied them all, every single one. You have yet to provide evidence to show us wrong, YOU HAVE SIMPLY DENIED THEM - THAT IS NOT DISPUTING THEM, AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT DISPROVING THEM
Just as with the Holocaust deniers, you are attempting to re-write history by simply saying that these documented facts are not true, that they, did not happen.
Typical is your insistence that the proposed sites the Bedouins are being moved onto are not toxic - YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN A LIST OF REASONS WHY IT IS WHICH YOU HAVE TOTALLY IGNORED AND GONE INTO YOUR MANTRA "IT IS NOT TOXIC" MODE - SHOW WHY THE REASONS YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN ARE WRONG OR STOP LYING - THE OPPORTUNITY IS YOURS
You obviously have no intention of explaining why the behaviour of others is an excuse for war crimes; nor do you intend to tell us why and when past massacres become irrelevant - tell us why these true or
STOP HIDING BEHIND SUCH EVASIVE DISHONESTY - IT IS YOUR NON-ARGUMENTS THAT ARE UNREASONABLE, IRRATIONAL OR NON EXISTANT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 04:09 AM

OK Jim, the "toxic" site.
The terms "Toxic waste" and "toxic dumps" have specific meanings.
It distinguishes such things from ordinary domestic garbage, which is what goes in to this landfill site.

Domestic garbage can generate methane and can contaminate water if mismanaged.
Wealthy friends of mine live on a very expensive housing scheme in Broxbourne over such a site.
There are pipes coming out of the ground here and there to disperse the methane.

Sabra and Shatilla.
No-one is denying it happened and was a dreadful crime against humanity.
If you argued that Israel had some indirect responsibility because they controlled the area I would have to agree.
If you argued, with hindsight, that IDF might have foreseen what the militia might do, I would have to agree.
If you argue, again with hindsight, that IDF should have realised what was happening sooner I would have to agree.
You keep saying IDF did it.
That is not true. It was the IDF who stopped it.

IDF responsibility can be argued about because it is equivocal.
If Israel is as evil as you say, why can you not find some unequivocal crimes to blame on them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:06 AM

"Chemical weapons" also has a specific meaning.
Smoke screen canisters are not chemical weapons.

If you said that their use around civilians was deplorable and reckless, I would agree.
I actually gave that as my opinion.

If you describe it as a chemical attack on civilians, that is just bollocks.
If you surround it in acres of multi-coloured, multi-fonted text, it is still bollocks.
It shows the weakness of your case that you have to use such nonsense.

Where are the unequivocal Israeli crimes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:58 AM

"toxic" site."
My dictionary gives "toxic" as harmful, destructive or deadly poisonous, and that is the is the situation on this site.
The materials on the site become toxic if they get into the water supply, that is a fact recognised by the Israeli authorities and stated as such - you have been given that statement.
They become toxic when coming into contact with some gasses, include those with domestic uses - also a documented fact and given to you.
Those toxins remain in the ground years, possibly decades after the site has been used, especially dangerous to any water supply - also commented on by those involved in the health of the country.
The perimeter fence is insecure, making possible - likely that children and enter the site and come into contact with rotting material which could make them ill and even kill them - this is true of any rubbish dump of this size and is recognised to be the case.
In addition to this, the gasses given off could cause fire and explosion - stated by the Health authorities.
Tell us which of these is not true.
Whether the site is being used to dump specifically recognised toxic material it totally irrelevant; I have never claimed that to be the case.
The site is toxic by its very existence – it contains material that can killand it has been stated as being such - that's in several of your unread links.
Your arguments here are similar to your defence of chemical weapons - if materials capable of burning the faces off children are showered down on occupied area they become weapons, no matter what their other uses are.
A baseball bat in the hands of a thug becomes a deadly weapon, no matter what its intended use was.
Your "Broxbourn" equivalent is laughably immaterial unless you can show that this site is and will continue to be similarly managed in the same way as your "wealthy friends" friendly neighbourhood dump - can you?.
Once the site becomes vacant there is no suggestion anywhere that any steps will be taken to guard against the lingering toxicity.
Apart from anything else, the proposal to evict a people from their traditional centuries-old tribal lands to somewhere where they will be unable to follow either their customary way of life or make their livelihoods, in order to make room for Jewish settlers is an act of racist oppression and your support for it reflects perfectly your fascist (wishes of the state before well-being of the people) outlook on life.
You have continued to ignore the evidence put before you and you continue to provide none of your own.
Moving people about like chess pieces if an open act of state fascism.
"Sabra and Shatilla."
You have been given the evidence of Israel's role in this massacre - it was facilitated by them and could not have happened without their active participation - if this is not true provide your evidence to counteract what you have been given.   So far, your sole defence is "Israel said they didn't do it" even though Israeli soldiers who were there and who were traumatised by the events said they did.
At the very least the Israeli forces provided the transport to the camps, opened up the camps for the killers, provided the illumination so they could go about their work OVER THREE DAYS.
Well-armed Israeli soldiers stood by and watched as the slaughter went on – they witnessed the events over a long period of times and did nothing.
"It was the IDF who stopped it."
They "stopped it" when the killing had run its course.
They helped bury the dead after the three days of slaughter and allowed the killers to leave.
They later built a stadium over the mass graves so that they corpses could not be used as evidence (the reason why the actuat death toll is still unknown)
They were guilty before, during and after the fact - making them mass murderers and war criminals - show us one shred of evidence to show they were not.
Were us your evidence - you've had ours

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 06:43 AM

""At least in Israel they have citizenship rights and the protection of the law.""

You really are not paying attention:-

""Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.""

Citizenship rights to everything, except basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads.

WOW! Aren't they lucky to be Israeli citizens. We know what rights they are excluded from, so what does that leave in the way of rights?

They have the right to be shifted out of their 600 year home and dumped alongside Jerusalem's steadily increasing rubbish heap. Not a problem says Keith.

They have the right to be dragged away from the area where they can support themselves by farming (which they have done for 600 years), and placed in townships which are among the poorest areas in Israel and have high crime levels, and which offer little if any hope of making a living as a farmer, which is the only trade they know.

All of this to supply brand new settlements where the REAL Israelis can take over the farming and make a good living at it.

You know, with equality like that, I'd hate to see what you, Keith, would describe as discrimination.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 07:02 AM

""I see where you're coming from.

The Irish anti-Israel sickness isn't limited to Ireland
""

Bollocks! You persist in deliberately NOT SEEING where we are coming from.

None of as is anti Jew.

We are talking about the excesses of the second most arrogant and intransigent government in the modern world, the Zionist bastards led by Netanyahu.

We are talking about that government's ongoing efforts to annexe the whole of Palestine, and the dishonesty of those who claim that imperialism is synonymous with self defence.

We are talking aout the iniquity of the way that they treat Arabs both within and without Israel.

We are talking about the way in which their soldiers respond to stone throwers with deadly gunfire, and the massively disproportionate responses to resistance, with kill rates far in excess of ten to one at every opportunity.

None of which has anything whatever to do with antisemitism on our part, so you may, at your leisure, roll that Irish document into a cylinder and shove it you know where.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 07:19 AM

This "why single out Israel" trend in this thread adds up to an utterly bogus, desperate and stupendously childish argument. let's look at why:

1. It is a thread about Israel. Duh.

2. The implication is that, even if Israel is doing something nasty, but slightly less nasty than a, b, c or d, it is beyond criticism. I rape your wife, but the chap next door murders your daughter. That lets me off the hook because murder is slightly worse than rape. Do me a favour.

3. In various threads on this and other forums, I've "singled out" for criticism the US for its foreign policy, the Catholic church for its terrible attitude to HIV/Aids in Africa, Hamas for its rocket attacks on civilians, the so-called "pro-life" movement, bitter Republican politicians who do everything in their power to prevent a Democrat president from governing effectively, the global warming denial conspiracy, the US gun lobby, the evil Mother Teresa and a host of other things. If a thread is about Israel then Israel has been singled out for discussion. Bleating that we're "singling out" Israel just because we don't share your apologist view of Israel is laughable. It simply reveals that you have no arguments.

4. The bloody thread is about Israel! (Oops, did I already mention that?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 09:30 AM

"I see where you're coming from."
Sorry Bobad, replied to this earlier but my posting went walkabout.
I read the Jacobson piece at the time, but was a little nonplussed to understand how opposing massacres, human rights abuses, war crimes... can be construed as 'Antisemitism" - unless he and you are, like Keith, claiming that none of these things happened - is that the case, d'you think.
Have certainly come across racism in Ireland, mainly from people who have lived in the UK and caught the infection there.
I can't recall any Antisemitism here (sorry - don't count bringing relief to a besieged people - that's humanitarianism as far as I'm concerned - maybe you could put me right on that one).
The Irish in general I find friendly, hospitable, generous and gregarious (little curious about you maybe, what you do and who you are), but I've never found that in any way offensive or threatening.
Not so long ago there was a ceremony to welcome "blow ins" who have come to live here permanently.
The one appalling exception is with Travellers - that seems to have almost reached ethnic cleansing proportions.   
There is a some healthy discussion of the implications of this at present - even some politicians seem to have become aware of the situation, but a long way to go yet.
I said elsewhere that I can't imagine anything more Antisemitic than hiding behind the six million dead of Auschwitz and such places, to defend proven war crimes and atrocities.
If the six million had been given the luxury of graves, I have no doubt that they would be spinning in them - shame on you and Jacobson.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 12:01 PM

Don.
Citizenship rights to everything, except basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads.
I would add sanitation.
All these thing ARE provided when they settle.
All these things are not available when they build without permission.

Richard.
This thread is about UN not condemning Israel for its action to prevent Syria's weapons reaching terrorists in Lebanon.
So not just about Israel.
As usual, all your friends rush in to use it as a platform for attacking Israel while ignoring all the far worse offenders that surround Israel.
Israel always is singled out.
It is undeniable.

Jim, IDF deivered the miltia to the camps to root out PLO fighters.
They have an indirect responsibility for not foreseeing the danger.
We can agree on that.
That much is unequivocal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 12:10 PM

Richard, the thraed about the Gaza/Egypt tunnels had nothing to do with Israel.
Israel was still singled out for attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 02:41 PM

All these things are not available when they build without permission.

Israel not only builds without permission but it also steals the building land first. And the settlers get all the water, electricity, healthcare, education, paved roads and sanitation they could wish for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 03:38 PM

"We can agree on that."
No we can't Keith - there were no PLO fighters found - simple slaughter in revenge for a killing and facilitated by Israel - where's your evidence, you've had mine - you are once again making it up.
Among your unread links there are eye witness reports of Israeli soldiers watching women being dragged away to be raped and then have their throats cut - perhaps the Israelis thought they were being taken off to be searched - waddya think?

Providing the transport - illuminating the massacre - opening the gates to the killers - helping hide the bodies - allowing the killers to escape - evidence of traumatised Israeli soldiers (late to provide the stunning animated film 'Waltzing With Bashir' ANY THOUGHTS?
"not foreseeing the danger."
They stood by and watched the slaughter for THREE DAYS - how much foresight is needed?
Lest we forget - sorry it's five months old!!
"US gave Israel Green Light for Sabra, Shatila Massacre
By Finian Cunningham
Global Research, September 19, 2012
Press TV
Region: Middle East & North Africa
Theme: Crimes against Humanity
In-depth Report: PALESTINE
0    0 0    63
For three days, between 15 and 18 September, up to 3,500 men, women and children were butchered in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps of West Beirut. Their mutilated, mangled bodies bulldozed into mass graves.
For three days, Lebanese Christian Phalangists under the command of intelligence chief Elie Hobeika returned over and over again to go on an orgy of systematic slaughter in the camps. The massacre would not have been possible only for the collaboration of Israel's Defence Forces, which had months earlier invaded Lebanon and taken control of the camps.
Sabra and Shatila were populated by destitute families of Palestinians that had fled from the pogroms in 1948 carried out by Israel's Haganah death squads. The refugee numbers also burgeoned with Lebanese Shia displaced from the civil war in their country that erupted in 1975.
The United Nations' General Assembly later condemned what happened at Sabra and Shatila as "an act of genocide". A UN commission of inquiry, headed up by Irish statesman Sean MacBride, concluded that the Israeli authorities and their forces were involved and responsible for the deaths. The then head of the IDF was Ariel Sharon who later would hold four ministerial posts before becoming Israeli Prime Minister from 2001 to 2006.
Yet not a single person has ever been prosecuted for the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila. As part of Lebanon's civil war settlement in 1990 an amnesty was afforded to all those who had participated in this and other atrocities. Some would later clear their consciences by confessing publicly to media and tribunals to the most barbaric acts of cruelty one can imagine.
Former Phalangist commander Hobeika was due to give evidence in a Belgian court, which had claimed international jurisdiction for crimes against humanity to prosecute the case. Ahead of the hearings, Hobeika had publicly stated that he was going to testify against Aerial Sharon to implicate him in the operation of the massacre. He never made it to the courtroom. He was assassinated in a car bomb in Beirut in January 2002. At least two other former Lebanese Phalangists who were similarly due to testify were also mysteriously killed. Eventually, the Belgian court was forced to drop the trial under pressure from Washington. Many believe that Israeli agents carried out the assassinations to spare Sharon international ignominy.
Despite the lack of criminal convictions, there is not a shadow of doubt that Israel has blood on its hands over Sabra and Shatila. The Lebanese militia recruited to do the dirty work were assembled by the Israeli Defence Forces at Beirut International Airport days before the mayhem was unleashed. The 1,5000 or so killers were armed by the Israelis and driven in IDF vehicles to the camps. The Israeli army had surrounded the site with armed guards and checkpoints to ensure that no-one escaped when the slaughter began. Indeed, some reports at the time claimed that Israeli soldiers ordered families trying to flee from the carnage back into camps to face their certain deaths.
Overlooking Sabra and Shatila was the seven-storey Kuwaiti embassy, which had been commandeered by the Israelis. From top floors, the Israeli and Phalangist commanders would have had a clear, uninterrupted view of the unfolding sickening spectacle. Not least because the Israeli forces would fire night flares over the camps as the death squads – fuelled with cocaine and alcohol courtesy of Israel – proceeded from hovel to hovel killing the inhabitants.
One Dutch nurse working in the camps for an international aid organization said that the area was as bright as day because of the constant barrage of flares.
From their vantage point, the Israeli commanders would have witnessed the most grotesque bloodletting carried out by their Phalangist fanatics against women and children. Yet the Israeli commanders did nothing to stop the slaughter. Why should they have? It was all evidently executed according to plan. Later, the Israelis claimed that they had instructed the militias to not injure civilians and to behave with discipline. That self-defence is beneath contempt.
The respected American human rights lawyer Franklin Lamb, based in Beirut, recalled what his late wife witnessed in the hours following the aftermath of Sabra and Shatila. Janet Lee Stevens was in Beirut working as a young journalist and was one of the first internationals on the scene. Here is just an excerpt of what she witnessed:
"I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles."
This week, only days before the 30th anniversary of Sabra and Shatila, Israel's current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was afforded the customary privilege of articulating his noxious views to the American people on various nationwide Sunday television channels. To be sure, Sabra and Shatila were not mentioned. No, instead Netanyahu was spilling his bile about Iran's alleged nuclear ambitions. He also called the worldwide Muslim demonstrations outside American embassies over the latest anti-Islam video "mob rule" and he compared the Iranian government to these "fanatics". In a leap of twisted logic, Netanyahu said: "You can't let such people have atomic bombs."
Such is the twisted world we live in. When will the voices of Sabra and Shatila be given such prominence on Western mainstream media to explain to the world the horror and injustice that they suffered? Maybe if such voices were somehow heard and understood, the American people would stop their governments bankrolling the fanatical, criminal state of Israel that has, and continues to, instigate so much conflict in the world. Washington gives Israel a license for genocide. The American people need to stop that."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-gave-israel-green-light-for-sabra-shatila-genocide/5305298

The fact that you continue to lie and to fail to produce one single scrap of evidence really places you where you are.
"All these thing ARE provided when they settle."
I assume you can provide links to this information - or not, as the case may be?
You haven't responded to the toxicity of the site - given up on that one?
Or the fascist behaviour of moving masses of people to make room for Jewish settlers.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 10:15 PM

Don't you just love hate?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 01:47 AM

Jim, when you read reports by "eye witnesses" remember that the enemies of Israel regard lies as a legitimate weapon.
Remember the ones that "saw" IDF soldiers throwing bodies off the Maramara, and executing a young man on deck.
All made up.
Remember the massacre you indignantly posted about that was pure fiction.
The faked pictures in Gaza, etc., etc.

Apart from the journalists, all your "eye witnesses" only remembered what they "saw" years later.
The only outcry at the time came from Israel.
The Arab world was silent.
I am not so gullible as to believe without question the stories from either side, but you have endlessly posted the anti-israel version so here is Israel's version of events.


On Thursday, 16 September, the I.D.F. surrounded the Palestinian refugee camps in west Beirut to flush out terrorists, confiscate weapons and strengthen the Maronite regime in the wake of Bashir Gemayel's assassination. In the following ten days, vast amounts of arms were removed, including 12 pieces of artillery, 8 heavy mortars, and 520 tons of ammunition. A decision concerning the use of Phalangist elements in the camps was reached a day earlier. They entered the camps in the late evening of 16 September and the massacres began. They lasted all day Friday and ended by late night Saturday. Reports began to filter out on Friday morning, when the Chief of Staff and the Foreign Minister were alerted. The Prime Minister first heard of the massacre from a foreign news broadcast. He and the rest of Israel were celebrating the Jewish New Year on Saturday and Sunday, 18 and 19 September. On the 19th, reporters entered the camps and confirmed that hundreds of Palestinians had been massacred. In Israel there was consternation and the Cabinet met in an extraordinary session and issued the following communique:

On the New Year, a blood libel was levelled at the Jewish State and its Government, against the Israel Defense Forces.

In a place where there was no position of the Israeli army, a Lebanese unit entered a refugee center where terrorists were hiding, in order to apprehend them. This unit caused many casualties to innocent civilians. We state this fact with deep grief and regret. The I.D.F., as soon as it learned of the tragic events in the Shatila camp, put an end to the slaughter of the innocent civilian population and forced the Lebanese unit to evacuate the camp. The civilian population itself gave clear expression to its gratitude for the act of salvation by the I.D.F. All the direct or implicit accusations that the I.D.F. bear any blame whatsoever for this human tragedy in the Shatila Camp are entirely baseless and without any foundation. The Government of Israel rejects them with the contempt which they deserve.

The fact remains that without the intervention of the I.D.F., there would have been much greater loss of life. It is also necessary to note that for two days and nights the Israel Defense Forces carried out actions against terrorists in West Beirut and no complaints whatsoever were voiced concerning civilian casualties.

It has become evident that the terrorists grossly violated the evaluation agreement, not only by leaving two thousand of them in West Beirut, but also by hiding away immense quantities of weapons, including heavy arms, such as tanks, artillery, mortars, and huge amounts of ammunition. All this was done in order to continue with the bloody terror against Israel and other nations from west Beirut.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 03:53 AM

This now becomes grotesque, though you have confirmed that you regard the targets of this massacre as "the enemy", which you denied before.
The eye-witnesses were survivors of the massacre - so presumably it would have been handier for your case if they had not survived.
No resistance to the massacre has ever been reported, no casualties other than the refugees.
Israelis stood by and witnessed the slaughter for three days without inetervention, other than to provide illumination so that the killers, that they had transported to the killing ground and give access to their victims, could continue their work through the night.
After the slaughter they helped hide the evidence by burying the bodies - the mass graves were later made inaccessible by building a stadium over them.
The killers were then allowed to escape.
"Apart from the journalists, all your "eye witnesses" only remembered what they "saw" years later"
Now you are openly lying again - it has been pointed out to you, in the past and as recently as yesterday, that witnesses included Israeli soldiers who also submitted testimonies describing the events - some of them deeply traumatised by what had happened - one of these accounts provided the basis for the film 'Waltzing With Bashir'.   
Your one single defence of this remains the account of the Israelis - the fully participant perpetrators.
Not one single scrap of evidence backs up their case, just "we didn't do it.
Your suggestion that the Israelis "stopped the massacre" is an obscene insult to those who died - and to our intelligence.
You appear to have gone totally around the twist on this one - a massacre supporter too far.
You have yet to respond to my description of the toxic nature of the proposed Bedouin site.
Similarly, you have not offered an opinion on the racist/Fascist nature of evicting Bedouins from their traditional homeland in order to make way for Jewish settlers.
You have not even acknowledges the 'Inequality Report' that paints a picture of Israel's Apartheid state.
You have not responded to one single question asked of you other than describe those of us who find these events horrifically inhuman as "enemies of Israel" and to suggest that we are 'Antisemite' by feeling such revulsion.
AND YOU HAVE YET TO PROVIDE A LINK TO ONE SINGLE SHRED OF DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR DISGUSTING CLAIMS - YOU APPEAR TO NOW BE TOTALLY MAKING IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG
You appear to have shot your bolt on this one.
CONGRATULATIONS - YOU HAVE NOW BECOME A FULLY-FLEDGED SUPPORTER OF MASS MURDER AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY - I NEVER DOUBTED FOR A MOMENT THAT YOU'D GET THERE EVENTUALLY.
YOUR POSITION ON THIS CHILLINGLY REMINDS ME OF ACCOUNTS I HAVE READ OF THE DEFENCE OF THE HOLOCAUST, BOTH AT THE TRIALS OF ITS PERPETRATORS AND BY ITS SUPPORTERS

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 04:31 AM

Jim, I have not put up evidence about Lebanon 1982 this time.
On previous threads we had proper debates with much exchange of evidence.
I am just not going to do it again.
There is no new evidence and your mind is completely closed.
The only contemporary accounts were from Western journalists and they were consistent with Israel's version.
There were exchanges of fire.

You have yet to respond to my description of the toxic nature of the proposed Bedouin site.
Yes I have.
I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.
Yes garbage can become toxic.
The courts are there to make sure those responsible do not allow it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:04 AM

You are now lying again
YOU HAVE NEVER PROVIDED A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR THE ISRAELI CASE
NOR HAVE YOU REPLIED TO MY DESCRIPTION OF TOXICITY
THERE ARE NO DOCUMENTED ACCOUNTS OF ARMED RESISTANCE TO THE MASSACRE
THE IS NO RECORD OF A PLO PRESENCE

Don't know how many of these you want, there are dozens more - don't suppose you'll read them but I hope others will
Jim Carroll

"ISRAELIS MISLED AMERICAN DIPLOMATS ABOUT EVENTS IN BEIRUT AND BULLIED THEM INTO ACCEPTING THE SPURIOUS CLAIM THAT THOUSANDS OF "TERRORISTS" WERE IN THE CAMPS. Most troubling, when the United States was in a position to exert strong diplomatic pressure on Israel that could have ended the atrocities, it failed to do so. As a result, Phalange militiamen were able to murder Palestinian civilians, whom America had pledged to protect just weeks earlier."
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/nyt-responds-to-netanyahu-israelis-misled-and-bullied-us-before-sabra-and-shatila-too.html

http://www.mideastweb.org/kahan_report.htm
0http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20120924053353687
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/09/22/30-years-after-the-massacre-at-sabra-shatila-new-challenges-grip-lebanons-palestinian-camps/
http://www.niu.edu/phil/~kapitan/pdf/SabraandShatillaMassacre.pdf
http://palestinechronicle.com/old/view_article_details.php?id=19574
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/21/262829/sabra-shatila-and-challenges-ahead/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/4381-survivor-niadal-hamad-qit-is-not-permissible-to-forgetsabra-and-shatilaq


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:57 AM

""Citizenship rights to everything, except basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads.
I would add sanitation.
All these thing ARE provided when they settle.
All these things are not available when they build without permission.
""

You are still not paying attention, are you?

THEY SETTLED 600 YEARS AGO, and have farmed that land ever since.

Israel is treating them exactly as 19th Century Americans treated the Indians who, like these Bedouins, were considered sub human, a hindrance to White settlement and expendable.

It now proposes to herd them into hovels in high crime areas and establish plush settlements with all mod cons for the chosen ones.

Of course, they do have another alternative which I'm sure Israel would prefer. They can leave and become refugees, turning Apartheid Israel into racially pure Israel.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:15 AM

""Jim, IDF deivered the miltia to the camps to root out PLO fighters.
They have an indirect responsibility for not foreseeing the danger.
We can agree on that.
That much is unequivocal.
""

They delivered them and nominally were in charge of, and responsible for, their actions.

This would not have mattered had they stopped the massacre, or even tried their best to do so.

They didn't take any preventive action for three days, and subequently allowed the murderers to walk away.

That is "Accessory, before, during, and after the fact!"

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""All the direct or implicit accusations that the I.D.F. bear any blame whatsoever for this human tragedy in the Shatila Camp are entirely baseless and without any foundation. The Government of Israel rejects them with the contempt which they deserve.""

Well they would say that wouldn't they? That's the simple response.

Expanding a little,....They would also present hard evidence for that statement, assuming such existed, but they didn't. Far from it! Accounts from their own soldiers, horrified by the excesses of the Phalangists directly contradict Israel's statement.

It may well be that Israel (the government) ordered the IDF to put the phalangists in, so that they could be in precisely this position of at least semi plausible deniability. The soldiers' accounts blew deniability out of the water.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:25 AM

""Jim, when you read reports by "eye witnesses" remember that the enemies of Israel regard lies as a legitimate weapon.""

While, of course, every utterance by the Israeli government is the plain unvarnished truth, and they are in fact an altruistic organisation devoted to the well being of Arabs and Muslims.

It's just that they truly believe in sending them to a martyr's welcome from Allah! They just want to make them happy.

Grow up Keith!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:35 AM

""I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.""

You are being disingenuous Keith.

You must be aware that landfill sites are only used for housing years after they are covered in, allowed to settle, and regularly checked for toxic gas emissions.

The site under discussion is open, in regular use for diposal of Jerusalem's rubbish, and spread all over the hillside right down to the current Bedouin settlement.

You cannot possibly believe that is acceptable, and you must know that the UN wouldn't think so either.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM

""Yes garbage can become toxic.
The courts are there to make sure those responsible do not allow it.
""

Another hollow laugh! We've already pointed out what Bedouins get from Israeli courts.

NADA!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:05 AM

Why Islam Will Never Accept the State of Israel
By Steven Simpson
It is a common belief that the "Arab-Israeli conflict" is a conflict of two peoples fighting over the same piece of land and is therefore one of nationalism. Rarely, if ever, do we hear or read of the religious component to this conflict.

However, if anything, the conflict is more of a "Muslim-Jewish" one than an "Arab-Israeli" one. In other words, the conflict is based on religion -- Islam vs. Judaism -- cloaked in Arab nationalism vs. Zionism. The fact of the matter is that in every Arab-Israeli war, from 1948 to the present, cries of "jihad," "Allahu Akbar," and the bloodcurdling scream of "Idbah al- Yahud" (slaughter the Jews) have resonated amongst even the most secular of Arab leaders, be it Nasser in the 1950s and 1960s or the supposedly "secular" PLO of the 1960s to the present. Indeed, the question must be asked: If this is really a conflict of different nationalisms and not Islamic supremacism, then why is it that virtually no non-Arab Muslim states have full (if any) relations with Israel?

There is a common Arabic slogan that is chanted in the Middle East: "Khaybar, Khaybar! Oh Jews, remember. The armies of Muhammad are returning!" It would be most interesting to know how many people have ever heard what -- or more precisely, where -- Khaybar is, and what the Arabs mean by such a slogan. A short history of the Jews of Arabia is needed in order to explain this, and why Islam remains so inflexible in its hostile attitude towards Jews and Israel.

Until the founder of Islam, Muhammad ibn Abdallah, proclaimed himself "Messenger of Allah" in the 7th century, Jews and Arabs lived together peacefully in the Arabian Peninsula. Indeed, the Jews -- and Judaism -- were respected to such an extent that an Arab king converted to Judaism in the 5th century. His name was Dhu Nuwas, and he ruled over the Himyar (present day Yemen) area of the Arabian Peninsula. In fact, it is most likely that the city of Medina (the second-holiest city in Islam) -- then called Yathrib -- was originally founded by Jews. In any event, at the time of Muhammad's "calling," three important Jewish tribes existed in Arabia: Banu Qurayza, Banu Nadir, and Banu Qaynuqa.

Muhammad was very keen on having the Jews accept him as a prophet to the extent that he charged his followers not to eat pig and to pray in the direction of Jerusalem. However, the Jews apparently were not very keen on Muhammad, his proclamation of himself as a prophet, or his poor knowledge of the Torah (Hebrew Bible). Numerous verbal altercations are recorded in the Qur'an and various Hadiths about these conflicts between the Jewish tribes and Muhammad.

Eventually, the verbal conflicts turned into physical conflicts, and when the Jews outwardly rejected Muhammad as the "final seal of the prophets," he turned on them with a vengeance. The atrocities that were committed against these tribes are too numerous to cite in a single article, but two tribes, the Qaynuqa and Nadir, were expelled from their villages by Muhammad. It appears that the Qaynuqa left Arabia around 624 A.D. The refugees of the Nadir settled in the village of Khaybar.

In 628 A.D., Muhammad turned on the last Jewish tribe, the Qurayza, claiming that they were in league with Muhammad's Arab pagan enemies and had "betrayed" him. Muhammad and his army besieged the Qurayza, and after a siege of over three weeks, the Qurayza surrendered. While many Arabs pleaded with Muhammad to let the Qurayza leave unmolested, Muhammad had other plans. Unlike expelling the Qaynuqa and Nadir, Muhammad exterminated the Qurayza, with an estimated 600 to 900 Jewish men being beheaded in one day. The women and children were sold into slavery, and Muhammad took one of the widows, Rayhana, as a "concubine."

In 629 A.D., Muhammad led a campaign against the surviving Jews of Nadir, now living in Khaybar. The battle was again bloody and barbaric, and the survivors of the massacre were either expelled or allowed to remain as "second-class citizens." Eventually, upon the ascension of Omar as caliph, most Jews were expelled from Arabia around the year 640 A.D.

This brings us, then, to the question of why modern-day Muslims still boast of the slaughter of the Jewish tribes and the Battle of Khaybar. The answer lies in what the Qur'an -- and later on, the various Hadiths -- says about the Jews. The Qur'an is replete with verses that can be described only as virulently anti-Semitic. The amount of Surahs is too numerous to cite, but a few will suffice: Surah 2:75 (Jews distorted the Torah); 2:91 (Jews are prophet-killers), 4:47 (Jews have distorted the Bible and have incurred condemnation from Allah for breaking the Sabbath), 5:60 (Jews are cursed, and turned into monkeys and pigs), and 5:82 (Jews and pagans are the strongest in enmity to the Muslims and Allah). And of course, there is the genocidal Hadith from Sahih Bukhari, 4:52:177, which would make Adolph Hitler proud. "The Day of Judgment will not have come until you fight with the Jews, and the stones and the trees behind which a Jew will be hiding will say: 'O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!"' Thus, the Arab Muslims had their own "final solution" in store for the Jews already in the 7th century.

The fact that Muslims still point to these (and many other) hateful verses in the Qur'an and Hadith should give Jews -- not just Israelis -- pause to consider if there can ever be true peace between Muslims and Jews, let alone between Muslims and Israel. When the armies of Islam occupied the area of Byzantine "Palestine" in the 7th century, the land became part of "Dar al-Islam" (House of Islam). Until that area is returned to Islam, (i.e., Israel's extermination), she remains part of "Dar al harb" (House of War). It now becomes clear that this is a conflict of religious ideology and not a conflict over a piece of "real estate."

Finally, one must ask the question: Aside from non-Arab Turkey, whose relations with Israel are presently teetering on the verge of collapse, why is it that no other non-Arab Muslim country in the Middle East has ever had full relations (if any at all) with Israel, such as faraway countries like Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan? Indeed, why would Persian Iran -- conquered by the Arabs -- have such a deep hatred for Jews and Israel, whereas a non-Muslim country such as India does not feel such enmity? The answer is painfully clear: The contempt in which the Qur'an and other Islamic writings hold Jews does not exist in the scriptures of the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and other Eastern religions. Therefore, people that come from non-Muslim states do not have this inherent hatred towards Jews, and by extension, towards Israel. But when a people -- or peoples -- is raised with a scripture that regards another people and religion as immoral and less than human, then it is axiomatic why such hatred and disdain exists on the part of Muslims for Jews and Israel.

Islam -- as currently interpreted and practiced -- cannot accept a Jewish state of any size in its midst. Unless Muslims come to terms with their holy writings vis-à-vis Jews, Judaism, and Israel and go through some sort of "reformation," it will be unlikely that true peace will ever come to the Middle East. In the meantime, unless Islam reforms, Israel should accept the fact that the Muslims will never accept Israel as a permanent fact in the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM

i think this was my first post on the 82 massacre back in 2010.
"The massacres were truly deplorable. Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them. They were disgraced by it."

That has been my position ever since.

The events are disputed.
You lot just accept what one side says without question.
I have no way of knowing which side is lying most, and which is most truthful because i am not a prejudiced bigot.
The evidence is equivocal.
If Israel is so evil, where are the unequivocal crimes?

THERE ARE NO DOCUMENTED ACCOUNTS OF ARMED RESISTANCE TO THE MASSACRE
THE IS NO RECORD OF A PLO PRESENCE


There are but they obviously are Israeli accounts and documents which you dismiss.

NOR HAVE YOU REPLIED TO MY DESCRIPTION OF TOXICITY
Yes I have.
I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.
Yes garbage can become toxic.


You must be aware that landfill sites are only used for housing years after they are covered in, allowed to settle, and regularly checked for toxic gas emissions.
Yes. Meanwhile people can live nearby.
The site under discussion is open, in regular use for diposal of Jerusalem's rubbish, and spread all over the hillside right down to the current Bedouin settlement.

Yes. It is in its last few weeks of operation.

The courts are there to make sure those responsible do not allow it.""

Another hollow laugh! We've already pointed out what Bedouins get from Israeli courts.

The judiciary and courts are independent.
All citizens have the same rights.
The Bedouin have already used the courts to change the settlement proposals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:18 PM

""However, if anything, the conflict is more of a "Muslim-Jewish" one than an "Arab-Israeli" one.""

If you change that premise to Muslim-Zionist, it might be more descriptive of what is, rather than what you would have us believe.

""why would Persian Iran -- conquered by the Arabs -- have such a deep hatred for Jews and Israel, whereas a non-Muslim country such as India does not feel such enmity? The answer is painfully clear: The contempt in which the Qur'an and other Islamic writings hold Jews does not exist in the scriptures of the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and other Eastern religions.""

The answer to that is very simple. Israel's Zionist government is not a direct threat to the existence of India, since it is not conducting the same planned campaign to gradually annexe India, that it is conducting in Palestine and the Middle East.

Zion's ingrained certainty of entitlement to the so-called promised land, occupied for so many centuries by Palestinians, and their high handed and disdainful treatment of the inhabitants, not only of that, but of all the other countries in the region, was always going to cause hatred.

Israel is the biggest single mistake that the West ever made. A Palestine with Jewish people living in mutual respect as they did 2000 years before might well have eventually settled into peace. Once the Zionists were given a part of Palestine, they were bound to want more, in fact they want it aall, and they don't much care who they kill to get it.

That whole garbled article is a straightforward apologia for Israeli expansionism, and it is a misrepresentation of what the Muslims of the region object to.

I'd like to know more about the credentials (if any) of the author.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM

""You lot just accept what one side says without question""

No, we accept the evidence produced by one side as more credible than the flat denial without evidence produced by the other.

Even you ought to ask why, if they have any, they don't produce it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:34 PM

""Yes. Meanwhile people can live nearby.""

I suspect your take on this would change radically, if that tip were open and up against your own property boundary.

But HEY! What the hell, they're only a bunch of Arabs, EH?

""Yes. It is in its last few weeks of operation.""

Followed by years of decomposition, surface settlement and gas emission.

And has it struck your sharp, incisive mind that a dump on a hillside is going to take a hell of a lot of covering.

That's why all of ours are in deep holes in the ground.

Again, you're not about to stress over the health of a bunch of Arabs, as long as the (Israelis who replace them have their luxuries.

""All citizens have the same rights.
The Bedouin have already used the courts to change the settlement proposals.
""

Yes, they have. Ten year court battles to get a water supply, or minimal success, one tap three miles from where it's needed.

You Keith are a master of the half truth and the outright lie.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:46 PM

" I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.
Yes garbage can become toxic."
Not a reply to:
My dictionary gives "toxic" as harmful, destructive or deadly poisonous, and that is the is the situation on this site.
The materials on the site become toxic if they get into the water supply, that is a fact recognised by the Israeli authorities and stated as such - you have been given that statement.
They become toxic when coming into contact with some gasses, include those with domestic uses - also a documented fact and given to you.
Those toxins remain in the ground years, possibly decades after the site has been used, especially dangerous to any water supply - also commented on by those involved in the health of the country.
The perimeter fence is insecure, making possible - likely that children and enter the site and come into contact with rotting material which could make them ill and even kill them - this is true of any rubbish dump of this size and is recognised to be the case.
In addition to this, the gasses given off could cause fire and explosion - stated by the Health authorities.
Tell us which of these is not true.
Whether the site is being used to dump specifically recognised toxic material it totally irrelevant; I have never claimed that to be the case.
The site is toxic by its very existence – it contains material that can kill and it has been stated as being such - that's in several of your unread links.
"There were exchanges of fire."
Links please (not from the Israelis - they have been accused, even by the US journals, of lying.
"I am just not going to do it again."
Of course yoe are not - you are lying and the only "evidence" you have put forward are denials of guilt by of mass murderers -as is the case here.   
"Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them."
The Israelis took part in those massacres, you have had the evidence for this fact AND YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ONE SINGLE SCRAP OF YOUR OWN TO SHOW OTHERWISE - PUT A LINK UP IF YOU HAVE
"The events are disputed."
THE EVENTS ARE DISPUTED BY ISRAEL ALONE - PUT A LINK UP IF THIS IS NOT THE CASE
Throughout this thread and those similar, your sole defence has been only that which Israel has claimed.
THERE WERE NO TERRORIST PRESENT AT THIS MASSACRE, THERE WAS NO ARMED RESISTANCE, THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE ACCOUNT OF THERE BEING TERRORISTS PRESENT AND THERE WERE NO INJURIES AND DEATHS OTHER THAN THOSE OF UNARMED, UNRESISTANT REFUGEES - IT WAS A MASSACRE OF UNARMED NON-COMBATANTS, FACILITATED AND PARTICIPATED IN BY ISRAELI TROOPS IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE (NOT CLAIMS BY THE GUILTY, PLEASE PROVIDE IT - IF YOU DO NOT HAVE SUCH EVIDENCE THEN YOU HAVE NO CASE

Bobad
"Why Islam Will Never Accept the State of Israel"
Rhetoric is one thing - I suggest that you view the reality.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html
Would you like to live next door to a heavily armed mass-murderer determined to drive you and your family out of your home and prepared to resort to the slaughter of you all in order to do so?
You declined to answer my last point to you - I will be interested to see if you answer this one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:52 PM

BTW
You have just confirmed that the only 'evidence' to your claims are the denials of the accused
"There are but they obviously are Israeli accounts and documents which you dismiss.'
This is not "evidence" but a denial by the long-found-guilty culprit.
Perhaps you might like to point out a court of law which would accept such uncorroborated evidence as "proof" - I can't think of one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 05:50 PM

I suspect your take on this would change radically, if that tip were open and up against your own property boundary.
There are landfill sites near me, and people live close by them.
Jim, we ARE talking about an ordinary landfill site.
Those responsible for such sites are accountable under the law to make them safe.
As Don says, after a time it is even safe to live on top of one, as my wealthy friends do in Broxbourne.

THE EVENTS ARE DISPUTED BY ISRAEL ALONE - PUT A LINK UP IF THIS IS NOT THE CASE
Who else was there?
The case was immediately taken up in Israel.
IDF was required to explain what happened.
No-one else showed any interest.
I am suspicious of all those "witnesses" including Israeli soldiers who kept quiet at the time and then remembered things long after.

It may be true, but the Israeli case is every bit as credible.
I have an open mind, but the evidence is equivocal.
If Israel is as evil as you claim, why are there no unequivocal crimes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:48 PM

The idea that landfills in general are safe because of some bureaucracy is risible at
best. They are not safe, they are toxic and anyone who believes otherwise is naive.

Again, Zionism is the culprit, not Judaism. Zionism is predicated on biblical injunctions and therefore can't be accepted as an expansionist country by Muslims.

Zionism when it was first conceived by Ben Gurion took into account the differences
between the Palestinian population and Israel. He was loathe to evict the Palestinians
from their homeland. Times have changed radically and Zionism became expansionist.

Israel has no intention of making life better for Palestinians and the world knows it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: pdq
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:58 PM

"In a 1946 appearance before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, also acting as an investigative body, the Arab-American historian Philip Hitti stated:

"There is no such thing as Palestine in [Arab] history, absolutely not." According to investigative journalist Joan Peters, who spent seven years researching the origins of the Arab-Jewish conflict over Palestine (From Time Immemorial, 2001), the one identity that was never considered by local inhabitants prior to the 1967 war was "Arab Palestinian.""


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 02:00 AM

Stringsinger,
A landfill site (also known as tip, dump, rubbish dump or dumping ground and historically as a midden) is a site for the disposal of waste materials by burial and is the oldest form of waste treatment. Historically, landfills have been the most common methods of organized waste disposal and remain so in many places around the world.

Yet we survive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 02:35 AM

Jordan.
This increasing in the amounts of MSW is not yet accompanied with the proper management practice in Landfilling resources. It poses negative effects on the human health and environment.
Throughout the country there are 24 landfills handling Municipal solid waste; one of the landfills is designed for sanitary landfilling but the others don't have even the simplest needed requirements at present.

Why single out Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 03:50 AM

Relax Jim.
All your worries about landfill sites were based on more anti_Israel propaganda.
Try not to be so gullible

Haaretz, 2012

"Israel today buries about 80 percent of its waste in proper landfills, while the rest is transferred to recycling facilities. ‏(There are some European countries that recycle 90 percent of all trash, but in most cases the rate of recycling there ranges from 50 to 60 percent.‏) The dumps are huge pits lined with woven plastic sheeting, and contain pipelines for syphoning off gases and leachate − or "garbage juice," as it is popularly called. Every day the trash unloaded at local dumps is covered; the landfill is closed down after the waste reaches a certain height. The authority in charge of each site is obligated thereafter to rehabilitate the landscape and to continue draining off leachate and gas."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:12 AM

"Who else was there?"
Isn't that exactly the point - the only evidence you have produced is that of Israel, who tried itself and found itself "not guilty" and that is all you have put forward as "evidence".
"No-one else showed any interest."
A BLATENT LIE.
THERE IS A MASS OF EVIDENCE FROM INVESTIGATIONS OF THE MASSACRE, YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN THEM AND HAVE REFUSED TO RESPOND, YOU HAVE EVEN LIED ABOUT HAVING READ THEM - WANT ME TO SHOW YOU THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT?

The massacre was investigated by groups like 'Amnesty' the UN, and and other human rights organisations from all over the world, all of which you have ignored or rejected WITHOUT PROOF in favour of Israel's denial - HOW LOGICAL IS THAT?
I haven't even bothered to produce eye-witness evidence because you have made it clear that you would have rejected Muslim eye witnesses as having been "biased" - yet you admit that the only "evidence" you have is that of the facilitators of the massacre.
YOU HAVE EVEN REJECTED THE EVIDENCE OF ISRAELI SOLDIERS WHO WERE THERE AND WERE TRAUMATISED BY THE EVENTS - WHICH, AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, IS BENEATH CONTEMPT DO YOU BELIEVE THEM TO BE ANTISEMITES TOO? WERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE FOR YOUR DISGUSTING CLAIMS
"Those responsible for such sites are accountable under the law to make them safe."
Utter ******* nonsense, any state whose law allows the government to forcibly uproot 2,300 Bedouin families to next to a rubbish dump (toxic or not) where they will not be able to make a living or follow their traditional life-styles in order to make way for Jewish settlers is hardly likely to adhere to any law, especially when the victims of this atrocity are Muslims
In the late 1990s, they moved families from 20 communities to the same area placing homes as close as 150 metres to the garbage dump. (this information from the "anti-Semite" Amnesty organisation).
ANY STATE WHO BEHAVES LIKE THIS CAN SAFELY BE DESCRIBED AS FASCIST – PUTTING THE WISHES OF THE GOVERNMENT ABOVE THE WELL-BEING OF THE PEOPLE IS CLASSIC FASCISM – AND TO SUPPORT SUCH BEHAVIOUR IS TO SUPPORT FASCISM
This is what you are supporting.
"Why single out Israel?"
Because this is what Israel is proposing to do - why else?
Bringing another nation's behaviour is total (very appropriately here) garbage, as is comparing this with what happens with your WEALTHY FRIENDS IN BROXBOURNE - you have been given the Israeli health department's own statement on the state of this site. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A THIRD WORLD PART OF THE PLANET, NOT MIDDLE-CLASS BRITAIN, , WE ARE ALSO TALKING ABOUT AN IMPOVERISHED PEOPLE, NOT (BY YOUR OWN DESCRIPTION) WEALTHY BRITONS. UTTER AND COMPLETE IDIOCY.
YOU HAVE YET TO EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THE CORRECT DEFINITION OF "TOXIC" WHICH I HAVE APPLIED TO THE STATE OF THIS SITE.
The continuing repetition of the same arguments without offering a word of explanation or proof is a sure sign of creeping dementia.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:20 AM

pdq
Are you claiming that Palestinians have no right to be in Palestine - or anywhere for that matter?
Isn't that what you people are claiming the Arabs are saying about the Israelis?
What's your solution - concentration camps and gas ovens maybe, or simply dispersment all over the globe just like the ancient Egyptians did with the Jews?
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:24 AM

YOU have applied the term "toxic" but it is just an ordinary landfill site like the ones most of Ireland's garbage goes into.
Don't believe all the anti-Israel lies and propaganda.
Did you miss this?
"Israel today buries about 80 percent of its waste in proper landfills, while the rest is transferred to recycling facilities. ‏(There are some European countries that recycle 90 percent of all trash, but in most cases the rate of recycling there ranges from 50 to 60 percent.‏) The dumps are huge pits lined with woven plastic sheeting, and contain pipelines for syphoning off gases and leachate − or "garbage juice," as it is popularly called. Every day the trash unloaded at local dumps is covered; the landfill is closed down after the waste reaches a certain height. The authority in charge of each site is obligated thereafter to rehabilitate the landscape and to continue draining off leachate and gas."
Haaretz 2012


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM

""As Don says, after a time it is even safe to live on top of one, as my wealthy friends do in Broxbourne.""

Another half truth.

I also pointed out that our landfills are all in disused quarries or surface mine workings, in other words below ground level, allowing for a substantial depth of hardcore rubble and a heavy layer of soil.

How would you propose that anyone effectively cover a waste dump on the surface of an open hillside?

More likely it will be left to rot down and become truly toxic along with the disregarded humans forced to live right beside it.

The Bedouins are being used like a human buffer between the dump and the important citizens.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:48 AM

""It may be true, but the Israeli case is every bit as credible.
I have an open mind, but the evidence is equivocal.
""

There are sufficient witnesses on one side of the argument to make it unlikely that they would be able to get away with lying, simply because, to be credible their separate stories have to tally very strongly. Given that most of them are individual soldiers, who would have had to wait until after leaving the army to come forward and give evidence, the time factor is arguably irrelevant (just another Keith red herring).

Stack up against that, a flat denial by the Israeli government, without any eye witness evidence from the rank and file who were there.

Doesn't sound good, does it? A jury would almost certainly bring in a guilty verdict.

A refusal to dignify an accusation with a defence, and/or treating said accusation with contempt (which was Israel's response), usually is a strong indicator of guilt.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:03 AM

""Around 250 Bedouins from the Jahalin group already live on the fringes of the As Sawahira dump, moved here by the Israeli authorities 15 years ago from land now occupied by the Ma'ale Adumim settlement. Their modest homes and huts are overlooked by piles of rubbish on one side and the Kfar Adumim settlement on the other.
"I'm sure the dump is very damaging for our health, but the Israelis moved us here – we had no choice," says Abu Jahalin, 70. He has heard of the plans to move thousands more Bedouins to the dump. He points to the proposed site with his walking stick, explaining that it will run all the way from the top of the hill, where his sheep graze, to the piles of rubbish.
""

That doesn't equate, Keith, with the cozy sanitised account you have just posted with your usual sycophantic trust in whatever comes from the Israeli side of the argument.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM

"YOU have applied the term "toxic"
No I haven't - the term toxic has been applied to the site in several (obviously once again unread by you, despite your having claimed to have "read them all") links.
I have given you the dictionary definition of "toxic"; I have given you the Israeli health authority's assessment of the site and I have itemized the calculated effect on the water supply, coming into contact with other gasses, including domestic and I have described the possible effects on children entering a poorly fenced rubbish dump
,font color=red>PLEASE STOP AVOIDING ALL THESE POINTS - IF WHAT I HAVE DESCRIBED IS WRONG, PLEASE SHOW WHY OR WITHDRAW YOUR NONSENSICALLY DISHONEST CLAIMS - ONE OR T'OTHER.
And please explain why the forcible mass movement of communities to where their health will be put at risk and where they will be unable to follow their way of life or make a living is not STATE FASCISM>
And please respond to all the other points regarding your mind-numbing claim that the Israeli denial is the only evidence available and is in any way to be regarded as evidence and that it is the only account of the massacre to be taken seriously.
WHERE ELSE ON THIS PLANET IS THE STATEMENT OF SOMEBODY ACCUSED OF A SERIOUS CRIME TO BE REGARDED AS THE ONLY EVIDENCE TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY - SINCE WHEN DO ACCUSED CRIMINALS GET TO TRY THEMSELVES AND FIND THEMSELVES NOT GUILTY?   
PLEASE STOP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF IN PUBLIC - IT'S EMBARRASSING, FOR US, IF NOT FOR YOU.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 06:36 AM

Thought you might like to read this very moving letter (last year- so I'm afraid you might think it out-of date, and you might think the nurse Antisemitic because she doesn't support the Israeli version of events!!!)
Jim Carroll
A letter to the IDF soldiers at Sabra and Shatila
On the 30th anniversary of the Sabra and Shatila massacre, a Jewish American nurse who provided humanitarian aid in a Beirut hospital recalls her first encounter with IDF soldiers. Today, she asks them to take a few moments during the Jewish New Year to remember.

To the IDF soldiers who were at Sabra and Shatila,

September 2012 will mark the 30th anniversary of the massacre at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut. In 1982, the first day of Rosh Hashanah coincided with the final hours of that horrific event. This year, the first day of the Jewish New Year, September 16, corresponds with the opening hours of the killings.
I met you in 1982. I was working as a nurse at a hospital in Sabra. I arrived after Israel's invasion of Lebanon, soon after Israel refused to allow food, water, and vital medications into the besieged city. I was there as a humanitarian. Morally, I could not stand by and be silent while the destruction of a city and the killing and maiming of its people occurred.
Following the assassination of the newly-elected president of Lebanon in mid-September all hell broke loose. I listened as Israeli planes broke the sound barrier over the camps, heard continuous heavy artillery fire, and stayed away from shattering windows. For almost 48 hours, from September 16th to the 18th, I attempted to save the lives of those who were brought to the hospital. Many had severe wounds from being shot at close range. I cared for hundreds of terrified refugees seeking the safety of the hospital. I tried to comprehend the throat-slitting gesture the women made. I watched from a top floor of the hospital as flares were shot in the air. The flares illuminated areas of the camp; the sound of automatic weapons fire followed each illumination.
The first day of year 5743 was marked by the arrival of the Phalangists – you who were there remember that extremist militia – at the front of the hospital. They ordered the international health workers to assemble. They marched us down the main street of the camps: past dead bodies, past a bulldozer marked with a Hebrew letter which was shifting soil to cover over a large area where homes once stood. Many of the militia were using walkie-talkies. At one point, the soldiers lined us up against a bullet- ridden wall and pointed their rifles at us. After several minutes, they put their rifles down and marched us out of the camp.
They led us up a street to an abandoned UN building. In the courtyard we saw parts of IDF uniforms, discarded army rations and recent editions of the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth. After interrogating us, they took us across the street to the Israeli Defense Forces forward command post. It was located in a five story building that overlooked the surrounded camps; we saw soldiers looking down on the camps with binoculars. It was there that you and I first met.
A number of you had on kippot (skullcaps) and tallitot (prayer shawls) and were reading from prayer books. It was mid-morning; perhaps you were reciting the Amidah (the Prayer) which consists of many prayers including one for peace, goodness, blessings, kindness and compassion. One of you offered a nurse a piece of carefully wrapped honey cake – maybe your mother had given it to you to take along on your army duty. Traditionally, we begin the New Year by eating something sweet – usually honey cake – to symbolize our hopes for a sweet year. I have never forgotten this gesture. But as I think back, I am pained by the act of celebrating the Jewish New Year as thousands of innocents were buried in mass graves below. One of you said "Today is my Christmas." I knew what you meant. For us, this day begins ten days of introspection and repentance when the Book of Life is opened and our fate for the next year is sealed.

In September, I will return to Beirut, as I have every year – to remember, commemorate, visit the mass grave, reunite with survivors, stand next to those who lost loved ones and bear witness.
I wonder what has happened to you over the past three decades. I know that Emil Grunzweig, a Peace Now activist, was murdered in February of 1983, during a demonstration – one of the largest in Israel's history – demanding that Prime Minister Begin adopt the recommendations of the Kahan Commission that investigated the massacre. Lt. Avi Grabovsky testified before the Commission. Ari Folman made a movie: Waltz with Bashir.
What about the rest of you? Many of you have children, maybe grandchildren. Do you live in comfortable housing; do you feel a sense of safety and security in your homes and neighborhoods? Are you well fed? Did you obtain a proper education, earn a decent living, and have access to health care, travel? Do you enjoy life? What are you passing on to your next generation?
Let me tell you about what life is like for the Palestinians I know still living in Sabra and Shatila. More than 9,000 refugees live within one square kilometer. Most of the dwellings are overcrowded, damp, and poorly ventilated; some have tin roofs. Open sewage systems run through the camps. The population is vulnerable to hostilities between various political factions. Refugees are denied the right to work in most jobs. Impoverished, they depend on an already overworked and underfunded UNRWA for basic health services and education. Inadequate nutrition, chronic illnesses and poor health are common. Children are deprived of a good education. Many refugees have never been out of their camp! Third and fourth generations are being born, growing up, and dying in these camps. It is bleak and appalling. The future holds little hope for any improvement in their lives.
I know that you are not to blame for the way the Palestinian refugees live today. I just ask that you take a few moments during one of our holiest days to remember. I am thinking of both you and of the Palestinian refugees during this time and I wish for a better future for all of us.

To the soldier with the honey cake, to the one who told me it was his Christmas, and to the others, L'Shana Tovah 5773 – To a good year.
Ellen Siegel

Ellen Siegel is a Jewish American. She first visited Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon in 1972. Since that time she has been an active member and supporter of the Jewish and Israeli peace movements, and has supported the Palestinian solidarity cause. She volunteered her nursing services in 1982 during Israeli's war on Lebanon. She worked in Gaza Hospital, Sabra refugee camp in Beirut and was present during the massacre. She testified before the Kahan Commission of Inquiry. She continues to work part-time as a nurse in WDC, and serves on the Medical Committee of the American Near East Refugee Aid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

A lucid support of Palestinian rights

This is an intelligent and well-thought-out response to the knee jerk Zionists who
equate Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions of the State of Israel to "Holocaust",
anti-semitism and other misleading so-called "anti Jewish" responses. These labels constitute a name-calling ad hominem attack and don't reflect the views of Jews worldwide. There are many Jews who call into question the Israeli occupation.

BDS movement is non-violent, not Hamas, and an appeal for justice for everyone,
Jew or non-Jew. The blinders that some have about Israeli occupation is a political
ploy used to discredit an honest discussion about the issue. This issue is not going
away because it is about civil rights for an oppressed minority that is analogous to the plight of the Native American, the African-American, and the indentured servitude of the Irish in the U.S.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 09:13 AM

Keith, maybe you will survive your toxic landfill but at what cost to you or the residents around you? This is thread creep and deserves its own thread. To rationalize any environmental toxic hazard as if it didn't matter reflects on the views of that rationale in application to other world events. The blinders don't stop at Israel, apparently.

It only shows that you can't disconnect one issue from others you have to connect the dots. The acceptance of the denial of the eco-problems we face is proportional to
the denial of the abuses of the State of Israel.

Thanks for at least making that clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 01:35 PM

Ordinary garbage sites are everwhere.
Properly managed there are no environmental issues.
Israel's sites ARE properly managed as described in the Haaretez piece.
All the "toxic" stuff is propaganda.
Don, Jim made the same quote on the 9th.
It is by Pheobe Greenwood



Greenwood is a clear example of what we at CiF Watch have termed in the past a 'journavist': someone promoting a political agenda by means of what the public assumes to be objective reporting.

Her increasingly frequent articles on the pages of the Guardian's Middle East section (cost-cutting in progress?) may initially appear to be little different from the often ideologically-motivated reports filed by Harriet Sherwood until one remembers that Greenwood's lightning apprenticeship for her new trade as 'Middle East Specialist' was learned not at a foreign editor's news desk, but at the knees of several of the more offensive anti-Israel charities at work in the region. That she claims to still work as a consultant with some of them indicates a continuing conflict of interests.

The fact that the Guardian is publishing supposedly serious reporting on the Middle East from a recently re-vamped former writer of celebrity gossip (with apparently no formal training in Middle East history, and whose 'expertise' on the subject was gained in a total of 22 months spent working on two far apart continents for a fairly notoriously biased charity) is hardly likely to cause regular CiF Watch readers to set aside their Christmas pudding or Hannuka donut in shock.

The 'miracle' of Phoebe Greenwood's meteoric transformation into a regular Guardian contributor with a self-described 'specialty' in the Middle East clearly has more to do with the fact that her 'progressive' one-sided approach dovetails very conveniently with the Guardian World View of the region rather than any boring, earthly factor such as knowledge, expertise or understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 02:43 PM

Thought you might like to read this very moving letter (last year- so I'm afraid you might think it out-of date, and you might think the nurse Antisemitic because she doesn't support the Israeli version of events!!!)

It is not out of date, but nothing she writes contradicts the Israeli version.

Robert Fisk. "Nor, let it be said – in 30 years – has a single Arab leader bothered to visit the last resting place of at least 600 of the 1,700 victims. Arab potentates bleed in their hearts for the Palestinians but an airfare to Beirut might be a bit much these days – and which of them would want to offend the Israelis or the Americans?

It is an irony – but an important one, nonetheless – that the only nation to hold a serious official enquiry into the massacre, albeit flawed, was Israel. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 03:07 PM

This has now become a dialogue with a Dalek
You have not answered one single question or given one clarification.
ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

Phoebe Greenwood;
It is difficult not to notice that you didn't provide a link to this one, so I took a peep.
The item is no more than a snide attack on a legitimate journalist, attempting to put her and the Guardian over as antisemitic, which is not particularly surprising as it comes from a a site dedicated to
CIFWATCH
"MONITORING AND COMBATING ANTISEMITISM, AND THE ASSAULT ON ISRAEL'S LEGITIMACY, AT THE GUARDIAN AND ITS BLOG, 'COMMENT IS FREE."'

An Israeli propaganda site, no less.

These links all refer to Bedouins moved to toxic waste-containing sites.
It includes reports of Bedouin crops being deliberately sprayed by Toxins
Jim Carroll

www.economist.com/node/21536645
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/iopt0308/3.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/01/8024
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/2010/08/uprooting-weeds-by-devorah-brous-march.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_al-Na'am
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/313-washington-report-archives-2006-2010/september-october-2007/9446-jewish-american-activist-champions-cause-of-israels-disenfranchised-bedouin.html
http://lordsoftheblog.net/2012/07/10/the-bedouin-of-israel-the-west-bank-and-east-jerusalem/
https://theshalomcenter.org/content/israeli-jewish-renewal-report-bedouin-inside-israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:02 PM

Israel is the USA's proxy foothold in the Middle East and so is allowed to do what they like, be it annexing land, killing anyone who gets in its way and all of their actions being justified by people like Keith A of Hertford who are blinded by faith which Thomas Moore said should be subservient to reason (incorrectly in my opinion).
I fear for the future as either Israel will nuke or be nuked and whatever who does it first, both will be losers as will the rest of us. One cannot convince Keith that there are two sides to this storey, in his eyes Israel can do no wrong. This thread has flung up lots of valid evidence that Israel is rapidly becoming an isolated state in the Middle East and as such, very dangerouse to world peace. I sadly await the outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:09 PM

What I like about Devorah Brous is her sense of balance. She freely admits that civil rights abuses happen throughout countries of the Middle East but also that they happen in Israel, too. Maybe folks could take a lesson from that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:13 PM

"Maybe folks could take a lesson from that."

And what I mean by that refers to partisans of either side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:34 PM

Jim M
One cannot convince Keith that there are two sides to this storey,
I acknowledge both sides of the story Jim.
I am one of the very few people here who put Israel's side of the story.
That makes the one sided bigots so angry.

The dumps we are discussing are ordinary landfill sites just like those near me or the one my friends live on top of.
Israel manages them just as well as UK or Ireland or anywhere else.
" The dumps are huge pits lined with woven plastic sheeting, and contain pipelines for syphoning off gases and leachate − or "garbage juice," as it is popularly called. Every day the trash unloaded at local dumps is covered; the landfill is closed down after the waste reaches a certain height. The authority in charge of each site is obligated thereafter to rehabilitate the landscape and to continue draining off leachate and gas."

The source of the piece about Pheobe Greenwood was given in the text.
Which factual statement do you challenge?

Nurse Ellen Siegel says nothing against Israel.
She gave her testimony to the (Israeli)enquiry.
She acknowledges in that letter that the appalling living conditions of the Palestinian refugees can not be blamed on Israel, but on their Arab brethren.
The Palestinian Israelis are the lucky ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:45 PM

Nurse Ellen Siegel is misinformed. Giving testimony to an Israeli enquiry is asking the foxes to guard the henhouse. Complete B.S.

Israel is an occupier. That's their side of the story. Palestinians are suffering at the hands of Israeli government. That's their side of the story.

There are no two sides to this issue unless you are willing to defend occupation and abuse by one country to another. So would you look at the Nazi's side of the story? Makes no sense. How can atrocities by justified by a "side of the story"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:49 PM

Nurse Ellen Siegel is not "misinformed."
She was there, and her story was not created long after the events.
It was Jim Carroll who placed her testimony on the forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM

Your selecting an Israeli propaganda page, a sort of Israeli Lord Haw-Haw (or Tokyo Rose, for our American cousins), has, for me at least, brought this topic to a satisfactory conclusion, probably for the time being as you clearly intend to break your own nauseatingly racist 'Muslim Prejudice' record by dragging this thread out for as long as you can by not answering questions put to you.
What parts of the Phoebe Greenwood article do I dispute? - I'll do you a deal I WILL BE HAPPY TO DEBATE HER AND THE GUARDIAN'S COVERAGE OF ISRAELI ATROCITIES, AND ANY SUGGESTION THAT EITHER SHE OR ONE OF BRITAIN'S FINEST NEWSPAPER'S IS IN ANY WAY "ANTISEMITIC" IF YOU WILL DIRECTLY ANSWER THE MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS AND UNACKNOWLEDGED EVIDENCE PUT BEFORE YOU REGARDING ISRAELI WAR CRIMES Can't say fairer than that.
Anyway, Phoebe Greenwood's coverage has been swamped by a tsunami of articles on Israel, toxic materials and the Bedouin, to which you have yet to respond or even acknowledge.   
I am grateful that your choosing it has opened up a whole new can of worms; that of the Israeli practice of using toxins in solving the "Bedouin problem", not only in the form of forcing them next to toxic sites, but also as aerial crop-destroying chemical sprays used on Bedouin food supplies - you have the links - you won't follow them through, or probably not even read them, but I have no doubt others will.
These links where hastily gathered; (didn't want to miss University Challenge) there appears to be page after page of such links.
And we hadn't even got round to discussing SKUNK, the chemical spray designed, among other things, to make homes uninhabitable.
""Skunk" is a malodorant, non-lethal weapon used for crowd control by the Israeli Defense Forces. Deriving its name from the animal of the same name, "Skunk" is dispersed as a form of mist, fired from a water cannon, which leaves a terrible odor of rot or sewage on whatever it touches. It does not wash off easily and is said to linger on clothes for up to five years.[1] First attempts at developing a scent-based form of crowd control began in Israel in 2004; Skunk was first used for crowd control in September 2008."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_(weapon)
There was a recent article in the Irish Times (no doubt anther Antisemitic rag!!!) giving a description of its use.
Stone-throwers were sighted (aka invented), the truck turned up and sprayed the house (in this case a farmhouse), making it uninhabitable for possibly up to five years - a crude but effective land clearance technique - not sure where the UN stands on this form of chemical warfare against non-combatants.
This particular incident was filmed and photographed; no stone throwers were in evidence.
Anyway as you seem to have entered your 'Dalek' mode by refusing to qualify your arguments, answer questions directed to you, refute or even acknowledge direct proof put before you in form of (unread) links and cut-'n-pasted commentary; as far as I'm concerned there is little more to add at the present time.
BTW Nurse Ellen Siegal said it as she saw it - the Israeli soldiers witnessed the massacre over three days without attempting to stop it, and buried the bodies using Israeli bulldozers - it's in her letter - further participation in the massacre by Israeli troops is adequately covered elsewhere.
I certainly have no objection to her giving any evidence to any tribunal.
I'll leave you to it - off to Galway to hear about the songs arising from '1798' - have a good day y'all, d'ye hear
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 04:37 AM

So not denying the factual statements about Greenwood.
It explains the false decription of an ordinary landfill site.
Just more propaganda.
I am not aware of "MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS."
Put them up and I promise to answer, but can't promise you will like it.

The nurse saw no direct involvement by IDF, and I acknowledge their shameful, indirect responsibility.

swamped by a tsunami of articles on Israel, toxic materials and the Bedouin,
I have to agree.
There are so many sites devoted to pumping out anti-israel propaganda.
That is all it is Jim.
Try not to be so gullible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 06:22 AM

"So not denying the factual statements about Greenwood."
Not even bothered to follow through this non-event you are trying to hype up - I have made no claims of the veracity of her articles - I put it up because it dealt with the subject we are discussing.
You have before you a load of information not only on toxic sites, but also of toxic sprays being used on Bedouin crops
You are lying (not even you are that stupid) when you say you are unaware...... - one more try though.
Don and I have repeatedly pointed out evidence on toxicity of the site - you not answered which I take as a refusal.
"I have given you the dictionary definition of "toxic"; I have given you the Israeli health authority's assessment of the site and I have itemized the calculated effect on the water supply, coming into contact with other gasses, including domestic and I have described the possible effects on children entering a poorly fenced rubbish dump "
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 06:30 AM

Or in more detail.
Jim Carroll
"My dictionary gives "toxic" as harmful, destructive or deadly poisonous, and that is the is the situation on this site.
The materials on the site become toxic if they get into the water supply, that is a fact recognised by the Israeli authorities and stated as such - you have been given that statement.
They become toxic when coming into contact with some gasses, include those with domestic uses - also a documented fact and given to you.
Those toxins remain in the ground years, possibly decades after the site has been used, especially dangerous to any water supply - also commented on by those involved in the health of the country.
The perimeter fence is insecure, making possible - likely that children and enter the site and come into contact with rotting material which could make them ill and even kill them - this is true of any rubbish dump of this size and is recognised to be the case.
In addition to this, the gasses given off could cause fire and explosion - stated by the Health authorities.
Tell us which of these is not true.
Whether the site is being used to dump specifically recognised toxic material it totally irrelevant; I have never claimed that to be the case.
The site is toxic by its very existence – it contains material that can kill and it has been stated as being such - that's in several of your unread links.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 06:36 AM

""All the "toxic" stuff is propaganda.
Don, Jim made the same quote on the 9th.
It is by Pheobe Greenwood
""

YEAH, YEAH!....WHATEVVAH!

We get it Keith. The whole world is antisemitic and only Israel is ever right.

You have made your allegiance abundantly clear, to the point of sanctioning the covering up of two massacres of men, women and children, whose crime was to be refugees from the actions of your heroes.

You say Phoebe Greenwood writes from bias. Even if true (which I doubt), you more than balance her.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 07:07 AM

Don and I have repeatedly pointed out evidence on toxicity of the site - you not answered which I take as a refusal.

Not evidence just hyped up propaganda.
We have established that they are ordinary refuse land-fill sites.
Such sites have the potential to become toxic.
That is all your "evidence" is about.

We have also established that the landfill sites are properly run, so there is no issue of toxicity.

Now I have responded fully, to that same point, one more time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 07:30 AM

Re Greenwood's piece.
"Their modest homes and huts are overlooked by piles of rubbish on one side and the Kfar Adumim settlement on the other."

Modest homes that replaced their tents, and which have electricity, running water and sanitation.
Piles of rubbish?
Each day's rubbish is buried that day.
"I'm sure the dump is very damaging for our health, "
How could it make them ill?
It could not but if there was evidence it did they could sue.

So we KNOW she wrote false propaganda, the Cif Watch FACTS just explain why she does it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 08:54 AM

Antisemitism as defined by the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)

    Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for 'why things go wrong'.

The EUMC then goes on to cite specific examples of antisemitism including:

    Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

    Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

    Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

    Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

    Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

    Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Specifically with respect to Israel, taking into account the overall context, the EUMC gave the following examples:

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

    Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

    Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

    Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 12:05 PM

Israel deserves to be castigated for what it has done in terms of the settlements. But the people here who choose to target that have never to my knowledge targeted Muslim activities that rational people would see as inhuman/e. Few have said a thing about human rights violations elsewhere in the Middle East because there are no Jews involved. I see them as Jew haters regardless their protestations of innocence, because it is always Israelis being singled out for their attacks. In the parlance, fuck 'em. The only violations they care to talk about are Israeli violations. Yes, there are many of them. There are also innumerable Muslim violations they never mention. Their silence about that speaks loudly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM

To return to Jim M's post.
in his eyes Israel can do no wrong.

Not true Jim.
All countries sometimes behave badly in self interest.
Israel is no different, but these extreme crimes are denied, and the hard evidence is just not there.
Can no-one produce an unequivocal accusation?

This thread has flung up lots of valid evidence that Israel is rapidly becoming an isolated state in the Middle East
Israel has ALWAYS been isolated.
The surrounding Arab armies tried to over-run and destroy it on day one, and it has been under threat or actual attack ever since.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 02:59 PM

""The EUMC then goes on to cite specific examples of antisemitism including:""

Not once have I expressed hatred or even dislike toward Jews or even Israel as a nation. I have been very careful indeed to make it clear that I am talking about the Zionists of the current Israeli government, of whom every devout follower of Judaism should be thoroughly ashamed, and I believe most of them are.

So point out exactly where any of those examples apply to me if you can.

I think I would find it easier to show up your hatred of Muslims and Arabs.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 04:29 AM

    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Jim C does that.

    Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Don, you have endlessly criticised Israel for their perceived ill treatment of Bedouin, but you have never once criticised Egypt for their actual persecution and marginalisation of them, denying them even basic citizenship and employment rights.
Nothing to do with Zionism there.

You have frequently denounced Israel for other perceived crimes but never their Arab neighbours Syria, Gaza, Egypt or Jordan.
Again, not Zionism but favouring any state over the Jewish one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:28 AM

""Don, you have endlessly criticised Israel for their perceived ill treatment of Bedouin, but you have never once criticised Egypt for their actual persecution and marginalisation of them, denying them even basic citizenship and employment rights.
Nothing to do with Zionism there.
""

We all have plenty of evidence of your highly selective notions of what is, or is not pertinent to any topic.

Taking a leaf out of your book, I stick to the topic of Israel in a thread about Israel.

If you feel inclined to start a thread about how badly the Egyptians treat the Bedouins, I will be right there with you in deploring and castigating them and their actions.

If however, you want me to subscribe to your ridiculous claim that the evil actions of Egypt, or Syria, or any other nation not under discussion, somehow excuse any excesses of the Israeli government, dream on. I'm not that stupid.

And if, in a thread about Egypt's excesses you were to align yourself with Egypt and try to excuse them, the response from me would be exactly the same as you have received here.

War crimes, crimes against humanity and infringements of human and civil rights are not a competition in which there are minor miscreants who get a free pass because someone else is worse, and only a biased and bigotted individual would try to claim otherwise.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:31 AM

""Not true Jim.
All countries sometimes behave badly in self interest.
""

Lip service Keith?

Put up one comment of yours on this thread which even implies that Israel bears the slightest responsibility for the current hostility in Palestine, particularly the West Bank and Gaza.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:39 AM

Israel deserves to be castigated for what it has done in terms of the settlements. But the people here who choose to target that have never to my knowledge targeted Muslim activities that rational people would see as inhuman/e. Few have said a thing about human rights violations elsewhere in the Middle East because there are no Jews involved. I see them as Jew haters regardless their protestations of innocence, because it is always Israelis being singled out for their attacks. In the parlance, fuck 'em. The only violations they care to talk about are Israeli violations. Yes, there are many of them. There are also innumerable Muslim violations they never mention. Their silence about that speaks loudly.

That is simply unfair, Bruce. I don't see anyone around here singing the praises of undemocratic Arab or Islamic regimes. The fact is that we know about the outrages perpetrated in some of those countries, particularly with regard to treatment of women, gay people and other minorities. So why aren't there more threads about them? Why aren't there more threads about North Korea? Why aren't there more threads about the repression of Catholics by the Church in Africa? There simply isn't the passion to get stuff going, that's all. The reason there are lots of Israel threads is that there is a massive pro-Israel groundswell in the west, fed by pro-Israel lobby groups which also happen to have a firm hand on the tiller of the media. I contend that people in the US in particular, but in other western countries too, do not get anything like both sides of the story (and in my opinion it shows all too clearly). The people here who you're calling Jew-haters are trying to redress the balance. To put the other side. If you still think that Israel is a shining light of civilisation surrounded by a bunch of cut-throat tribal savages, then I'm afraid you're simply not looking past what Fox News or those of similar sentiment tell you. The human rights abuses that go on within the boundaries of Israel are no different to the ones we all condemned when they occurred in South Africa and those to which we look back in shame when they occurred in the deep south. The best land is stolen, families are divided, people are prevented from moving freely around, you are far more likely to be unemployed, etc. etc. Go on, why don't you tell me that the Israeli Arabs are inferior and have brought it all on themselves - and tar yourself with your own brush? We heard all that before in apartheid South Africa, in white Rhodesia and in the southern states before the civil rights movement. And the only people around here who keep mentioning Jews are the suckers who have fallen into the Zionist trap of calling all anti-Israel sentiment anti-Jew sentiment. It is no such thing, Bruce. As an ardent member of the camp you are so quick to denigrate, I can tell you that I would lock up anyone who threatened the existence of Israel, I would lock up anyone who publicly denied the Holocaust and I would lock up anyone preaching true antisemitism (which says that Jews are inferior or have undesirable traits en masse). I also condemn Hamas's rockets targeted at civilians. I have said these things many times, as have many of the other so-called "Jew-haters" you refer to, but I get the distinct impression that the pro-everything-Israel camp are so hoodwinked by their grooming by the media to hear only one side that they occasionally bring the trait over here as well. It's called denial, Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:12 AM

If however, you want me to subscribe to your ridiculous claim that the evil actions of Egypt, or Syria, or any other nation not under discussion, somehow excuse any excesses of the Israeli government, dream on. I'm not that stupid.

And if, in a thread about Egypt's excesses you were to align yourself with Egypt and try to excuse them, the response from me would be exactly the same as you have received here.


There never is such a thread.
You lot ONLY AND ALWAYS SINGLE OUT ISRAEL, ignoring the far greater excesses and crimes of all the other countries in the region.

Put up one comment of yours on this thread which even implies that Israel bears the slightest responsibility for the current hostility in Palestine
I am almost a lone voice putting Israel's side of the story.
There are enough of you putting the case against!

The OP was all lies against Israel, but here you all are still supporting it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:47 AM

Resorting to hysteria now, Keith, are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

Don,


"
Taking a leaf out of your book, I stick to the topic of Israel in a thread about Israel.
"

Yet in a thread about EGYPT and GAZA, YOU make it about Israel and its supporters...






Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:33 AM

Egypt has its own malcontents, dissidents and nutjobs, all of whom were, and still are, very active following the change of regime.

The Egyptians' claim that Palestinians were responsible is both unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, but of course all the anti Gaza brigade will take Satan's word over that of Hamas

Just another escalation of pressure on the Gaza strip. Israel will be pleased!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 09:22 AM

You mean to say Israel WON'T be pleased, Bruce?

Please elaborate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM

"Not evidence just hyped up propaganda."
Can I remind you that you have recently admitted that the only evidence you have offered for the Guardian and her staff being antisemitic has been taken from a site that proclaims itself as "MONITORING AND COMBATING ANTISEMITISM, AND THE ASSAULT ON ISRAEL'S LEGITIMACY, AT THE GUARDIAN AND ITS BLOG, 'COMMENT IS FREE."' IE a self declared propaganda site for hiding Israeli atrocities.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM

Keith,
I wonder if you can clear up something that's been bothering me for some time?
I recently stumbled across an old argument of ours discussing British fascists who supported Hitler and the Nazis prior to and during WW2.
I had pointed out that were quite a number of them who came from the upper echelons of British society – Sir Oswald Mosely, the Mitford 'gel', Lord Rothermere (owner of The Daily Mail), Hon. Mrs Ismay Ramsay, 5th Duke of Wellington, William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw) even King, Edward VIII and his lovely wife.
You dismissed them all as a handful of harmless nutters of no significance – i.e, you defended anti-Semitism by dismissing the fact that a significant number of people in powerful positions had banded together to form an organisation to promote it (this was in the run-up to and during WW2, when, had Hitler come to power, the word's Jews would have suffered the fate of the six million).
One particular name cropped up; Member of Parliament, Archibald Maule Ramsay, who set up 'The Right Club', which discussed, among other things, how they should handle "The Jewish Threat" after Hitler won the war.
He compiled a book entitled 'The Red Book' (the Independent Newspaper had just re-discovered it at the time of our argument) which listed British people who needed to be dealt with when Germany won.
It also published several poems, including (to be sung to the tune of 'Land of Hope and Glory'):

Land of dope and Jewry
Land that once was free
All the Jew boys praise thee
Whilst they plunder thee

Poorer still and poorer
Grow thy true-born sons
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance
Fooled by Jewish lies
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But—by the God of battles
'Twill serve to hang them yet.

You dismissed this as harmless, comparing it to (I kid you not) 'Who Do You Think You're Kidding Mr Hitler", (which you believed to be a World-War-Two song) i.e. as harmless as a sit-com theme song.
Sorry to have gone on for so long (hope there aren't too many words for you to follow) , but I was wondering; WHEN THE **** DID YOU METAMORPHOSE FROM SOMEONE WHO IS PREPARED TO DEFEND BRITISH FACISM BY DOWNGRADING ITS IMPORTANCE, TO A RABID APOLOGIST WHO ACCUSES EVERBODY WHO EXPRESSES DISGUST AT ISRAEL'S NAZI-LIKE BEHAVIOUR AS BEING "ANTI-SEMITIC"
Would appreciate an answer to this one.
Jim Carroll
PS. Am happy to provide a link to this argument, should you care to deny it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 12:44 PM

"You lot ONLY AND ALWAYS SINGLE OUT ISRAEL, ignoring the far greater excesses and crimes of all the other countries in the region."

This is untrue and an excuse by the Zionist fanatics used to discredit their critics.
Quite a lot has been said about abuses by Hamas, and other Mid-East countries and organizations but this doesn't take Israel off the hook. These fanatics hide behind accusations of anti-Semitism and invoke the Holocaust as another weapon used against Zionist critics. Alan Dershowitz is well known for this attack mode, an esteemed lawyer who has a blind spot when it comes to Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:03 PM

Jim.
Archibald Henry Maule Ramsay .... went into politics as a Scottish Unionist Member of Parliament (MP). From the late 1930s he developed increasingly strident antisemitic views. In 1940, after his involvement with a suspected spy at the United States embassy, he became the only British MP to be interned under Defence Regulation 18B.

His mad poem was not published , never recorded and no record of anyone outside his mad club ever singing it.

Never miss an opportunity to attack Britain or Israel Jim, whatever the subject of the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:19 PM

No answer to why you defended British fascism Keith, and are continuing to do so here, but beside the point.
Please answer the question;
WHEN THE **** DID YOU METAMORPHOSE FROM SOMEONE WHO IS PREPARED TO DEFEND BRITISH FACISM BY DOWNGRADING ITS IMPORTANCE, TO A RABID APOLOGIST WHO ACCUSES EVERYBODY WHO EXPRESSES DISGUST AT ISRAEL'S NAZI-LIKE BEHAVIOUR AS BEING "ANTI-SEMITIC
Will have plenty more demands for answers to the questions you have so far avoided and for all the links you have lied about and not even read.
I listed 22 to these that you have so far ignored and there have been many more since.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:33 PM

Slightly OT.............

The Isreali documentary film "The Gatekeepers" is Oscar nominated. In it, 6 former heads of Shin Bet talk bluntly about, amongst other things, illegal settlements and government policies. Israel apologists will not like the film.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:47 PM

The post where I mentioned the song.
It begins with a quote by you which turned out to be a lie.
No British minister or any politician ever said any such disgusting thing.

16 Dec 10

"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

Who was it?
What is your source?
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 05:39 PM

Necessary to point out to Jim, yet again, that to use the word "Nazi" in conncection with anything Israeli-connected, whatever the apparent or pleaded motivation or justification, is a purposeful piece of provocative antisemitism any way you slice it.

In the useful formulation, Jim, of that barrister character in Shaw's 'You Never Can Tell': you think it isn't but it is.

This shall be my sole contribution on this occasion to the ever-ongoing, this·one·will·run·&·run, Carroll·&·Keith Show, whose continuance shows no sign of ever coming to an end, to the egregious delectation of the entire Cat-Community [NOT!].

שלום

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:49 PM

Necessary to point out to Jim, yet again, that to use the word "Nazi" in conncection with anything Israeli-connected, whatever the apparent or pleaded motivation or justification, is a purposeful piece of provocative antisemitism any way you slice it.

Simplistic rubbish, Michael. Now I don't employ that word in this context myself because I do have at least some regard for the outcomes of my remarks, but (and I shouldn't really have to point this out to you) any comment that is Israel-related, whether the word Nazi is incorporated or not, is only antisemitic if it refers to all Jews being inferior in some way or all Jews having undesirable traits. Alternatively, it could be a comment in which "Jew" is gratuitously employed in a derogatory way ("I noticed that that bloody Jew didn't pay his bus fare!" instead of "I noticed that that bloody chap didn't pay his bus fare!") Let's stick with this and assume as default that comments referring to Israel normally refer to the Zionist tendencies of its leaders and, perhaps, to some of the hoodwinked people. I would be antisemitic if I said that the Jewish lobby in the US tries to manipulate the government in Israel's favour (AIPAC contains many Christians as well as various pillocks of other persuasions). If I said that the Israel lobby/pro-Israel lobby was doing it, that would not be antisemitic, even if I called them Nazis. That would be unwise and inaccurate, but it would not be antisemitic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:35 PM

As an addendum to MtheGM's post I should point out to those who direct their their venom at Zionism or the "state of Israel" that many both within and without the Jewish community consider that tantamount to antisemitism. From Wiki:

New antisemitism is the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, emanating simultaneously from the far-left, radical Islam, and the far-right, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel. The concept generally posits that much of what purports to be criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:54 PM

""Taking a leaf out of your book, I stick to the topic of Israel in a thread about Israel.
"

Yet in a thread about EGYPT and GAZA, YOU make it about Israel and its supporters...
""

The problem with you and the other Zionist supporters is that you never read anything thoroughly unless it comes out of the Isareli propaganda machine BB.

I merely pointed out that Egypt's claim was unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, while (and this is the bit you chose not to see) the Muslim brotherhood asserted quite strongly that Israel WAS responsible.

Presenting half the story is a serious fault of yourself and Keith.

Do you really believe that we will just let you get away with it?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 08:04 PM

""As an addendum to MtheGM's post I should point out to those who direct their their venom at Zionism or the "state of Israel" that many both within and without the Jewish community consider that tantamount to antisemitism. From Wiki:""

And many within the ranks of worldwide Jewry, both witin and without Israel, are by that reckoning antsemitic.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 08:14 PM

As a matter of fact, considering MtheGM's expressed disppointment and disapproval of the actions of the current Israeli government, you would, I think, be placing him in the antisemitic camp.

His objection to the points raised by Jim centres around the provocative use of "Holocaust" and "Nazi" in relation to Israel, on which point (sorry Jim), I am in agreement with him. It crosses a line which I believe should never be crossed.

Having said that, I think that the government of Israel cynically crosses the same line by invoking their status as victims of the Nazis to justify doing whatever they see fit to their neighbours.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 02:41 AM

I merely pointed out that Egypt's claim was unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, while (and this is the bit you chose not to see) the Muslim brotherhood asserted quite strongly that Israel WAS responsible.
Don, you refer to a different thread.

Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood hate Israel (Jews?) and blame them for all evil.
When the incursion happened, blaming Israel was a knee jerk reaction.

However, power brings responsibility.
They clearly knew who was really responsible, and had to take action to stop it happening again.
They closed and flooded all the tunnels from Gaza, and took no action nor made any more statements against Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:13 AM

"Necessary to point out to Jim, yet again, that to use the word "Nazi" in connection with anything Israeli-connected,"
And it is necessary to point out to Mike that ring-fencing discussing levels of behaviour which are comparable to techniques, used by the Nazis against the Jews, in style, if not in scope, as "not being able to go there" is evading the issue. I have never, nor would I suggest that Israeli behaviour is anything like comparable in scope to the Holocaust (capital H), but I fail to see how facilitating the systematic and cold blooded slaughter of 3,000 refugees is not comparable with Nazi behaviour.
Describing revulsion of such behaviour as "antisemitic" is as antisemitic as it gets.
Accusing your opponents of Antisemitism when they suggest that Israel's behaviour towards Gazan non-combatants, Bedouins, refugees - anybody who stands in the way of their expansionist policy really.... is to directly identify the Jewish people with massacres, chemical warfare, indiscriminate slaughter, forcible seizure of land, destruction of homes.... you name it, the Israelis are doing it.
The criticisms here are directed at the Israelis - I suggest you go and look up the word Antisemitism in your dictionary if you believe otherwise – mine gives "Hostility or prejudice towards Jews".
The Israelis are not The Jewish People, nor do they represent them by their behaviour - THE ONLY ANTISEMITES HERE ARE THOSE WHO SUGGEST THAT CRITICISM OF THAT BEHAVIOUR IS "ANTISEMITIC", THEREBY IDENTIFYING WAR CRIMES AND HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AS JEWISH   
"Carroll and Keith show"
Keith consistently takes over these threads, feels it necessary to answer everybody's points, polices the discussions by ordering people how and what to discuss, manipulates them by attempting to swerve the discussion in the direction he wishes it to take, numerically dominates them with his postings and invariably insists on having the last word - go and check if you doubt any of this.
To allow him to do this is to concede this forum to somebody who, in my opinion, wishes to use it as a platform for peddling bigotry and race/cultural hatred.
He often has a fairy godmother/father to assist him in his endeavours, on this occasion she/he appears to be otherwise occupied.
"Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood hate Israel (Jews?) and blame them for all evil."
Would this be the same Muslim brotherhood whose actions you were using to prove that Hamas was responsible for the killing of Egyptian policemen?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM

Keith consistently takes over these threads, feels it necessary to answer everybody's points,

You usually criticise me for NOT answering ANYONE's points!
Which is it?

I do not think my little posts dominate a thread.
Not like your massive, multi-coloured, multi-fonted extravaganzas.

All my little posts put together do not come close to matching your output Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:47 AM

"I fail to see how facilitating the systematic and cold blooded slaughter of 3,000 refugees is not comparable with Nazi behaviour."
.,.,.,
Slightly breaking my promise not to join this thread [not 'otherwise occupied', Jim; just bored!], I would rejoin to this point by ref to the implications of the fine Law propounded by Mr Godwin as to the desperation of achieving adequate arguments which such comparisons on these threads imply; and point out moreover Don's agreement that such usage has an associative element that exceeds the decent boundaries of acceptability. You think it doesn't but it does. Are you really so insensitive as not to perceive how & why such is the case? I should be grieved to think so, and would sincerely like to think better of you than such an intransigent attitude would suggest.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:35 AM

A truce.
I find the behaviour of the Israelis as I have described, but I am happy to take Don's and Mike's points on board and will no longer make the comparison. It is not my intention to hurt or insult anybody and I if I have, I apologise unreservedly for having done so.   
"You usually criticise me for NOT answering ANYONE's points!"
You dominate these threads by saying precisely nothing at length and putting a great deal of time, space and effort into avoiding answering anyone's points - interminably.
"All my little posts put together do not come close to matching your output Jim."
I totally agree, nor anybody else's, if you are referring to substance, but numerically you're streets ahead of anybody on this forum.
Want me to reassess this thread for you - and when it comes to your Herculean efforts on the Muslim Prejudice thread....
I do hope you're prepared to put a bet on this Keith - I could do with a long holiday in the sun.
"Not like your massive, multi-coloured, multi-fonted extravaganzas."
And once again you appear to be instruct others how to make their contributions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:41 AM

Several people put points specifically to me, so I am expected to respond.
Even so, I doubt my words exceed yours Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:06 AM

M
Didn't quite finish.
I find being accused of being "intransigent" a little odd from somebody who has put the time and effort into defending the most stupidly intransigent individual I have ever encountered.
And BTW, there is nobody more sorry than me that things have turned out between us the way they have; maybe there's something to be said for the "no religion, no politics" signs you see in pubs!
If you really are "bored", why not try a good book? If you haven't already, I would highly recommend Markus Zusak's 'The Book Thief'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:13 AM

""Don, you refer to a different thread.""

I wasn't talking to you Keith, but responding to Bobad, who referred to my comments (or at least the part of them he wanted to emphasise) in that other thread. I responded to point out the bit he had somewhat sneakily left out.

Has he been taking lessons fom you?

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""They closed and flooded all the tunnels from Gaza, and took no action nor made any more statements against Israel.""

So one allegation can be ignored, if not repeated? How facile and devious!

The allegation was made, and the Muslim Brotherhood hates Israel just about as much as Israel hates the Muslim Brotherhood, so when it's a case of one's word against the other, I don't profess to know who, in this specific instance, is telling the truth.

You, on the other hand, automatically and without serious consideration decide that Israel is the truth teller, based on an almost religious belief in their veracity, which has been proven unjustified on many occasions.

The Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas and Israel are equally likely to lie when it is to their advantage, but you only ever believe what comes out of the Israeli propaganda machine.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:29 AM

Only 'bored' with this partic topic, Jim. Have just got a previously unread Ben Elton from Amazon which I propose to read this afternoon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 08:39 AM

So one allegation can be ignored, if not repeated? How facile and devious!

If they REALLY believed Israel responsible, they would not have flooded the tunnels, and certainly not in the middle of sensitive talks with Hamas to improve relations.
They have to spout the required propaganda, but their actions reveal their true belief.

Why do YOU think they flooded the tunnels Don?
Aquarobics?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 10:39 AM

"If they REALLY believed Israel responsible, they would not have flooded the tunnels,"
You seem to be thread drifting from one thread to the other now, while complaining about others doing it within the same thread.
And you are still referring to (and ignoring the fact that this has been pointed out to you on several occasions) a regime that you have described as repressive and have used constantly as an excuse for Israeli human rights abuses.
Are you really holding up a government that is under pressure from it's own people for its repressive and undemocratic nature.
The motive behind Egypt flooding the tunnels has been adequately explained elsewhere - don't suppose you bothered to read that one either.
"Why do YOU think they flooded the tunnels Don?"
Hamas and the Palestinians played no part in the killing of the Egyptian policeman and have not been accused of such by anybody other than those with a similar agenda as your own - the defending of a terrorist state's war crimes.
I suppose it's a waste of time asking you to present actual evidence that they have!
Jim Carroll

To repeat, in the vain hope.......
"Christian Science Monitor again
"Israel and Egypt have closed their official border crossings with Gaza until further notice, and Egyptian and Hamas officials have shut down the hundreds of tunnels that are used to smuggle food, fuel, and construction materials to the Israel-blockaded seaside territory because Egypt believes that the gunmen tried to escape into Gaza through them."
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2012/0806/Sinai-attack-seals-up-Gaza-to-outside-world-video
"The funeral ceremonies were disrupted by PRO-MILITARY HECKLERS" (Your "angry mourners" I believe J.C."who chanted slogans against President Mohammed Morsi of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood and Gaza's Hamas rulers."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57488629/16-egyptian-soldiers-killed-in-sinai-buried/"


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:34 AM

Thread drift.
Don T raised this issue this morning. I pointed out it was the wrong thread. You must have missed that Jim.

,i>The motive behind Egypt flooding the tunnels has been adequately explained elsewhere
Yes it has.
To prevent another incursion from Gaza.

Your Christian Science piece was in the immediate aftermath.
The flooding of the tunnels, making the closure permanent, was seven months later.
The Brotherhood are clearly now certain where the incursion came from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:57 AM

Once again you prove that you never read responses in full. BOBAD raised the point and I responded to him. You then stuck your nose in for your twopence worth of anti Muslim crap.

You really should make up your mind. In one sentence yo are calling the Egyptians bloody liars, and in the next your applauding them for shutting Gaza down.

Who gains most from the shutdown?.......Israel!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:12 PM

""The Brotherhood are clearly now certain where the incursion came from.""

They certainly haven't said so. Do you have a mole in the Brotherhood feeding you inside info Keith?

Taking into consideration the previous record of Mossad and Israel's special forces units, it is entirely credible that they might carry out such an action from Gaza. More credible perhaps than Hamas upsetting the applecart during delicate negotiations with Egypt.

Israel certainly would go to considerable lengths to prevent any such detente.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:38 PM

"I pointed out it was the wrong thread."
That's what I just said.
I trust we have now seen the back of your continually trying to manipulate threads by accusing others of "thread drift" - now we need to tackle "out of date" and pointing at other nations crimes to excuse artrocities, then who knows, you might even try reading what others put up - whoops, was that a pig flying past the window?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:53 PM

"The Brotherhood are clearly now certain where the incursion came from."
Would very much appreciate a link to this information, especially as it has been stated that Egyptians were almost certainly implicated in the killings
Jim Carroll

The Morsi era
By: Abid Mustafa | February 21, 2013 . 0
Ever since assuming the office of the presidency, Mohammed Morsi has worked resolutely to portray himself as a moderate Islamist working independent of American influence for the betterment of Egypt and the region. But beneath the veneer of Islamic rhetoric surrounding his domestic and foreign policy actions, Morsi is no better than his predecessor Mubarak - the former custodian of US interests in the region.
On the domestic front, Morsi can claim that the opposition has not permitted his government enough time to push through reforms that will address Egypt's battered economy, restore law and order, and improve the lives of ordinary Egyptian people. This is despite the fact that such reforms are formulated under the auspices of IMF stipulations for Egypt's government to revise its economic agenda in order to qualify for the $4.8 billion loan.
The IMF spokesman, Gerry Rice, said: "We understand the Egyptian authorities have been working on revising their economic programme. And once this step is completed, we will discuss the timing of a possible mission to Cairo to assess the revised programme." The delay has prompted America's rating agency, Moody, to downgrade Egypt's credit worthiness. Thus, USA's economic enslavement of Egypt continues via the IMF and Moody, regardless of the claims made by Morsi's government of following a sovereign economic policy.
On the foreign policy front, Morsi cannot conceal his pro-American credentials behind the wall of protestors. His foreign policy is distinctively American and in many ways is more than Mubarak's era.
Consider his treatment of Palestinians living in Gaza. On February 13, 2013, Egypt without warning flooded Gaza tunnels that are a lifeblood of the Palestinian people living in concentration camp like conditions in Gaza, which for all intents and purposes is controlled by the cowardly Jewish state.
The tunn