BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM

well-known illegal owner of nukes, well-known serial invader of surrounding territories and well-known perpetrator of war crimes, including carrying out civilian massacres

We have seen all these lurid assertions from Don and Jim.
They could not substantiate them but I am sure you can Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:13 AM

In his speech to open the 61st General Assembly of the United Nations in September 2006, then-Secretary General Kofi Anan admitted that Israel is often unfairly judged by the international body and its various organizations. "On one side, supporters of Israel feel that it is harshly judged by standards that are not applied to its enemies," Annan said. "And too often this is true, particularly in some UN bodies."1

Despite being the only democracy in the Middle East, Israel routinely faces more criticism and condemnation at the United Nations than any other country, including those that systematically kill their citizens or deny them the most basic of human rights. Even today, both the General Assembly and Security Council continue to pass one-sided resolutions that single out and condemn the Jewish State. Additionally, an overwhelmingly powerful bloc led by the Arab nations promotes a narrow and slanderous agenda meant to isolate Israel that has met little resistance.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/israel_un.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:10 AM

Well I think it's terrible that Hezbollah are giving Syria weapons (old stock smuggled in on trucks). I think it's equally terrible that Israel, well-known violator of UN resolutions, well-known illegal owner of nukes, well-known serial invader of surrounding territories and well-known perpetrator of war crimes, including carrying out civilian massacres and leaving cluster bomblets all over farmland in a foreign country, should be provided unconditionally with sufficient wherewithal to blow its neighbours to kingdom come. The whole notion of foreigners feeding wars from outside is utterly repugnant. The least that should happen is that military aid to Israel should become conditional on their making peace with neighbours and desisting from aggression beyond its legal borders. And handing back all that settlement land. Go, Barack. What a legacy you could have.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:00 AM

And Israel have never violated UN resolutions? Jeez, do me a favour before I split yet another corset.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 09:28 AM

Steve,

"the bad guys have no right to get their hands on weapons."

So YOU repudiate the UNR that ended the Lebanon mess?
YOU want to have open warfare again?
YOU want to have civilians killed?


Israel has kept the terms of the ceasefire- Arming Hezboallah is a violation of the UNR that negates the ceasefire.

Any action by Syria or Iran to arm them is a violation that degates the ceasefire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

To someone who says that Syria supplying weapons to Hezbollah is equivalent to the US doing the same with Israel there is nothing to be said except what I did say.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:37 AM

Two posts, bobad, in which you have actually said precisely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM

your adamantine refusal, in the Gaza thread, to discuss the creeping annexation of the West Bank,

Because it added no perspective to the Gaza issues and there was no comparison.
It was an entirely separate issue, and a very complex one.
I suggested, reasonably, that we finish the Gaza discussion first or start another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

And if you feel that the actions of other countries are germane to the issue under discussion, I would love to hear your explanation

If Israel's supposed crimes are being discussed, it adds perspective to consider how much worse other countries are.

Also, I make the comparison to expose the hypocrisy and prejudice of those who single out Israel for attack when it is far from being the worst offender, if an offender at all, while ignoring the crimes of real and serious offenders even in the same region.
Like you and Jim do Don.

And, I have not lied and do not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

"Now let's see if I have this right. You have decided who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. You have decided that those who you have decided are the bad guys have no right to get their hands on weapons. You have also decided that there is nothing wrong with those who you have decided are the good guys getting such massive amounts of assistance from us here in the west that they can get enough weapons to put them in the top five armies in the world (in spite of being about as populous as Scotland). You have decided that, even in the face of massacres and repeated invasions of surrounding sovereign territory, slaughter on a massive scale of civilians and the theft of land for settlements, those who you have decided are the good guys are still the good guys. Perhaps, in the light of this, you'd care to expand on why it's me who's showing the wilful ignorance around here. Failing that, I'm more than happy for you to continue to make your unsupported throwaway remarks, which are nothing if not amusing."

As I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

Only a fool would deduce from my post that I was somehow comparing Scotland militarily with Israel. I was ...no, bollocks, everyone except Keith knows what I meant. Bugger off, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:27 AM

It is not Bobad who decided that Hezbollah "have no right to get their hands on weapons"

It is the UN and every country in the world except Assad's Syria and Iran.

Scotland is part of UK and quite well armed, and is not surrounded by sworn enemies that have already tried many times to over run and wipe it out.

massacres and repeated invasions of surrounding sovereign territory, slaughter on a massive scale of civilians
That sounds like a terrible country.
It must be a hated international pariah.
Who is it please

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:20 AM

""LIAR!

We have discussed Israel's actions which you have tried to excuse on the basis that other countries behave worse. It is you who constantly drags other countries into the debate and I can't help wondering.

If you are so adamant that Israel is behaving reasonably, you shouldn't need to compare their record with any other country.""

There, emphasised, is the explanation of my comment, the existence of which you just denied.

And if you feel that the actions of other countries are germane to the issue under discussion, I would love to hear your explanation (or more likely rationalisation) of your adamantine refusal, in the Gaza thread, to discuss the creeping annexation of the West Bank, which the UN has branded illegal.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:11 AM

Willful ignorance makes it's appearance.

Now let's see if I have this right. You have decided who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. You have decided that those who you have decided are the bad guys have no right to get their hands on weapons. You have also decided that there is nothing wrong with those who you have decided are the good guys getting such massive amounts of assistance from us here in the west that they can get enough weapons to put them in the top five armies in the world (in spite of being about as populous as Scotland). You have decided that, even in the face of massacres and repeated invasions of surrounding sovereign territory, slaughter on a massive scale of civilians and the theft of land for settlements, those who you have decided are the good guys are still the good guys. Perhaps, in the light of this, you'd care to expand on why it's me who's showing the wilful ignorance around here. Failing that, I'm more than happy for you to continue to make your unsupported throwaway remarks, which are nothing if not amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:07 AM

I told you, and it is true, that I have never claimed certainty.

However, no rational, intelligent person can believe your lurid accusations (that are clearly not believed by any progressive, liberal democracy) without some convincing evidence.

None has yet been produced.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:01 AM

""The second sentence, "adamant that Israel is behaving reasonably" I refuted by saying that I never claimed certainty or excused anything.""

You certainly never excused anything, contenting yourself, throughout this thread, with simply denying everything.

Untruths and half truths and being economical with the truth are all forms of lying in which, I'm afraid, you specialise.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:56 AM

""I make the comparison to expose the hypocrisy and prejudice of those who single out Israel for attack when it is far from being the worst offender, if an offender at all, while ignoring the crimes of real and serious offenders even in the same region.
Like you and Jim do.""

I note the sudden appearance of the phrase ""if an offender at all"", following my last post but one.

It would appear that you did after all read my 10:08 post, and that it touched a nerve.

Feeling somewhat less certain, or attempting to hide the fact that you never were certain?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM

I re-read your post and there is no explanation of any lie.
I do not lie Don.

Read the rest of the post and respond to the whole thing,

Your post had 3 sentences.
The first was about bringing other countires to the discussion, which I replied to.

The second sentence, "adamant that Israel is behaving reasonably" I refuted by saying that I never claimed certainty or excused anything.

That answered your third sentence too.

Having screeched "liar" in large font capital letters with an exclamation, I think you should justify that childlike outburst Don.
I do not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM

""Instead you screech "liar" in large font capitals.""

Because, as I went on to explain, that sentence was a LIE!

Tell a lie and I will call you on it, so try something new. Read the rest of the post and respond to the whole thing, rather than continue your devious cherry picking of a word or phrase and twisting it entirely out of the context in which it appeared.

By now you should have noticed that we are wise to all your little tricks.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:58 AM

Don, if I make an error of fact (I don't believe I have) you could just identify it and I would apologise and withdraw.
Instead you screech "liar" in large font capitals.
Why?
It indicates an emotional involvement I find curious and distasteful.
Can we not discuss this like grown-ups?

perhaps you are not as certain as you claim
I have never claimed certainty.
I just point out the absence of evidence for your lurid assertions.
I make none myself.

Israel's actions which you have tried to excuse on the basis that other countries behave worse
No.
Not to excuse anything.
I make the comparison to expose the hypocrisy and prejudice of those who single out Israel for attack when it is far from being the worst offender, if an offender at all, while ignoring the crimes of real and serious offenders even in the same region.
Like you and Jim do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:11 PM

""So what YOU are saying is that no evidence produced FOR the Israeli government and IDF by outsiders, or Israelis, is acceptable to you.""

Neither you nor Keith have so far produced any, so, unless you can and do, you might as well go back to sleep BB.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:08 PM

""You and Jim have asserted that Israel is guilty of far worse crimes than those of, say, Syria or Iran when EU and other nations imposed restrictions and sanctions on them.""

LIAR!

We have discussed Israel's actions which you have tried to excuse on the basis that other countries behave worse. It is you who constantly drags other countries into the debate and I can't help wondering.

If you are so adamant that Israel is behaving reasonably, you shouldn't need to compare their record with any other country.

So perhaps you are not as certain as you claim, or perhaps you know you are wrong and simply cannot stand to admit it?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:48 PM

Willful ignorance makes it's appearance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:36 PM

So, better they should let Syria supply Hezbollah with missiles to kill Jews, right?

Well, we let the US supply Israel with missiles (or the bankrolling needed to produce them, same thing really) in order to attack, well, whoever they feel like attacking. They have a good record of so doing, too. Any moral equivalence there?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:18 PM

So, better they should let Syria supply Hezbollah with missiles to kill Jews, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM

He may be gone but the warmongering spirit lingers on. Check this out!

Israeli Aggression

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:56 PM

Contrary to what Stringsinger says above, Moshe Dayan is not "forcing" anyone to "obey" anything. He's been out of the Israeli government since 1979 and dead since 1981.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:18 AM

The problem is one of complete denial offered as a defense of the brutality of Israel.
There has been sufficient evidence presented and rejected by the Zionist reactionaries here that hasn't changed the actual reality of the situation. Although Hamas is culpable in the past of reacting with violence, this doesn't change the sanguinary warlike machine of Israel who one would think would know better after suffering the horrible Shoah and not take on the manifestations of the captors. Instead, they've built up their armaments with the help of the U.S. military and have become one of the leading exporters of arms and military intelligence, not a good qualification for a peaceful country. (The same can be said for the U.S. as well).

Fortunately, within Israel, reasonable heads prevail that decry what Netanyanhu, Abgidor Leiberman, Moshe Dayan and other war lords are forcing others to obey. I applaud those with Jewish heritage such as Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Goldstone and others who are blowing the whistle on this rank military adventure by Israel. The BDS movement in no way calls for the abolition of Israel as a country. This is a flagrant distortion offered by AIPAC and the Israeli government propaganda machine. BDS calls for reform by Israeli politicians who are tilting at historical windmills.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:49 AM

I've just read through this thread with great interest. Everything Stringsinger and his fellow travelers says is so very true. It is all information we've known since 1903 when the Protocols of the Learned Elders oz Zion was first published. READ THE PROTOCOLS with an open mind and you will know the truth as Stringsinger and so many others do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM

Don,

So what YOU are saying is that no evidence produced FOR the Israeli government and IDF by outsiders, or Israelis, is acceptable to you.



Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:17 AM

Completely untrue Don.
You and Jim have asserted that Israel is guilty of far worse crimes than those of, say, Syria or Iran when EU and other nations imposed restrictions and sanctions on them.

That has not happened to Israel because it is not guilty of such things.

The "evidence" you and Jim have supplied is equivocal to say the least, and mostly relies on "eye witnesses" who we know are more than capable of making up lies to damage Israel.

It is not just Israel that denies these lurid accusations.
Not one progressive liberal democracy regards Israel as a criminal or terrorist state.
It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:59 AM

""Unlike you, I just need to see some evidence of it before I believe it.
I agree that Israel's denial is not evidence, but if they refute an accusation, some unequivocal evidence is required and you have not produced""

We have produced yards of evidence, which, beyond a reasonable doubt (and in some areas beyond any possible doubt) proves Israel to be an opressive state which treats not only its minorities, but also its neighbours as targets for its insatiable desire for expansion.

So, what you are saying is that no evidence produced against the Israeli government and IDF by outsiders, or Israelis, is acceptable to you.

In other words the only acceptable evidence would be a confession by the Israeli government.

Talk about bias! You go much further to one side and you'll fall off the edge.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 06:20 AM

10 Mar 13 - 04:02 AM

So be specific.
Which statements of mine are unsupported?
Which legitimate site have I rubbished?

11 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM

My last post is sourced from Kahan, NYT Sept 26 1982, and Fisk's report all of which you have quoted.
Would you like any repeated Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:28 AM

09 Mar 13 - 01:30 PM

As you have decided not to back up your own 'information' (sic)

Just give me an example Jim.
I promise to substantiate or withdraw.
Or is it just more empty bluster because you have nothing else?


11 Mar 13 - 05:15 PM

Jim, I keep asking you what you want substantiated, and you just keep accusing me of not doing it.
Just say what you want.

12 Mar 13 - 09:52 AM

If we have to go through your whole book we will be here for years.
Remind me why we have to discuss this piece of history anyway.
Do you still want me to substantiate anything?

12 Mar 13 - 10:31 AM


If I have failed to substantiate something, just tell me what it is.
You can't though.
It is just bluster.


12 Mar 13 - 04:19 PM

Again you accuse me of unsubstantiated claims.
Remember you accused me of making up two incidents from Siegel's testimony?
I substantiated both and you had to apologise twice.
How could you forget?

13 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM

Not one single link here concerns the poisoning of Bedouins, the fascist eviction of one racial group to make room for another, the massacre of 3,500 unarmed and helpless refugees, the use of chemicals on human beings and livestock - or any single one of the disgusting claims you have made here

No Jim, it is YOU who have claimed all those things but failed to substantiate one of them.

14 Mar 13 - 08:53 AM


I can substantiate anything you ask me to, but you are frightened to ask because you know I do not lie.

14 Mar 13 - 10:59 AM

I CAN substantiate anything.
You dare not ask.
All bluster.
You lose.

17 Mar 13 - 06:03 PM

I have offered over and over again to substantiate anything I might inadvertently missed.

You have failed to identify a single one and still have not.
It is all just bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:19 AM

Just to add, tho: trouble is, I fear, that there are times when he is, and topics which reduce him to the status of, not-right-bright. I haven't forgotten that he once launched an attack on me based on the use of the word 'educated' as a term of abuse...

Well, I mean..

I know it was quite a while back; but then he never tires of raking up again&again&again a 3-year-old post whose significance he has time-&-again been shown to have missed entirely, as if it were some fire-new-minted knockdown proof of something or other...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:02 AM

It is all just bluster...
,..,\
Absolutely. Just the word. As I say, dismissive bluster & assertive but baseless bluster are J's fall back when he hasn't anything else. See my example 4 posts back, which I think, with all due modesty, absolutely, in the lit-critical sense, absolutely 'places' Jim Carroll.

He keeps saying 'goodbye, I'm out' [another of his emotive evasions] & then coming back 3 minutes later with another right-off-the-point supposed clincher.

Well, when I say it I mean it. I am off. No point going on bashing head against the brick wall of evasion & incomprehension & bluster that goes by the name of J Carroll any longer.

Adieu, thread.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 06:03 PM

he has refused all requests of substantiation of his claims or response to ours.
I have had enough of that serial lie now Jim.
I have offered over and over again to substantiate anything I might inadvertently missed.

You have failed to identify a single one and still have not.
It is all just bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM

Is that last post addressed to me? It is entirely incoherent. I genuinely cannot make head or tail of what you are trying to say, Jim. I genuinely do fear that you are losing it. Very, very sad!

Or can anybody perhaps point me some way in the direction of whevs it might be that Jim thinks he is on about? Have I missed something, or is it really as diffuse a piece of drivel as I think ~~ and fear?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 03:50 PM

"Again, not true Jim."
As Mandy Rice Davis said.....
"YOU can do better than that, surely!"
You have ignored every point about Keith's performance her - as I thought you would, and you are now adopting his tactics of distortion and evasion.
One thing that has impressed me about this thread is the patience and tolerance that has been shown here towards his open dishonesty, his failure to even bother to argue, and his constant insults thrown at everybody who dared to suggest that Israel might just be guilty of those crimes it has been accused of, that the evidence suggests it was guilty of and was protected from charges of war crimes by persistent and long term UN vetoes.
Nobody has "run out" of anything here - Keith offered nothing to start with, we have offered plenty, and could easily offer more should we feel the game was in any way worth the candle - why bother when what you offer is either dismissed out-of-hand or totally ignored?
You, apparently are refusing to respond to the list of examples given just as he has refused all requests of substantiation of his claims or response to ours - which makes you on par with him, and just as lacking in self-respect in doing so publicly.
And then there were two.
I'm gone.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM

Well, here's a fine example of Jim's aggressive or dismissive 'when he hasn't got anything else' kind of ad hominem [or in this case ad feminem] argument, the use of which he attempts to refute: ~~

'rather than quotes from a prostitute who was also reported to have said "kiss me quick, I'm coming".'

A very young woman, in the course & hassle of a prominent trial, produced a brilliantly brief but apposite riposte to a pompous counsel's question, such as possible affected the outcome of the trial, and so impressed everybody that it is enshrined in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, no less.

But she happened to like sex, and even, perish the thought, made her living by indulging this taste and exploiting her youthful attractiveness [she wasn't any sort of street whore, but a successful call-girl among the rich & distinguished who could pick and choose]. So, according to Jim-logic, that means we can absolutely discount her brilliant and apposite apothegm, because a prostitute who liked to come during the course of sexual stimulus ipso facto disqualified anything she said on any topic from consideration.

Oh, come on yourself, Jim ~~ YOU can do better than that, surely!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 01:32 PM

Keith is the one single individual here who has openly defended massive human rights abuses and murders by Israel

Again, not true Jim.
Unlike you, I just need to see some evidence of it before I believe it.
I agree that Israel's denial is not evidence, but if they refute an accusation, some unequivocal evidence is required and you have not produced any.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 01:14 PM

Jews in America are not totally different from many in Israel. And not all Jews in America fortunately subscribe to AIPAC's propaganda.

There is racism in America and Israel and it is directed at Muslims. Therefore,
the issue is germane to the war crimes of Israel. This is not thread drift.

As to the arguments being solved by Keith, this hasn't happened. Not enough evidence supports his conclusions.

The evidence exists that there is a problem, an ongoing war based on Israel oppression of Palestinian people. This will not be solved by taking a hard line on Israeli nationalism. There is no way that the rest of the world will accept Israeli intransigence, belligerence and a warlike position that threatens the stability to world peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 01:03 PM

"when you haven't got anything else""
Oh, for ***** sake - come on Mike, you can do better than that.
Keith has been given dozens of examples to respond to with discussion and proof of his own; he has totally failed or openly refused to do so, responding only with "Israel says they didn't do it". He has even said himself that the only evidence in Israel's favour comes from Israel and its propaganda sites. He has stupidly put up two major pieces of information which condemn Israel's action in the massacre of refugees, thereby undermining his own case.
What we have run out of is patience with somebody who is openly dishonest and stubbornly bigoted enough to reject every single criticism of Israeli behaviour.
He has written off every piece of evidence put before him from all over the world as hateful lies, bigoted, Antisemitic... even evidence from Israelis and their supporters.
What he can't handle he has ignored, then dishonestly claimed to have dealt with it.
He has claimed to have read everything put before him, then proved he hasn't      
He has even claimed that his only accepting Israel's version of events if fair and unbiased, and by us not doing so we are bigots and Israeli haters.
Do you honestly believe that he has conducted himself honestly and with any level of principle or self-respect here - has he produced and worthwhile or in any way convincing evidence - has he actually debated any of these issues at all - or is this just part of your "help a rabid dog over a stile" mission?
In defending his despicable behaviour here you're smearing yourself with it.
If I have said anything here that is untrue, please feel free to correct me - I will happily produce backing for anything I have written.
He keeps talking about "winning" and "losing" as if all this were a game, nobody "wins" in one of Keith's wars of attrition, you should bloody well know that.
Keith is the one single individual here who has openly defended massive human rights abuses and murders by Israel, (even his lone buddy chickened out on backing him on that), and he has put as much effort (sorry - time) into it as he did in trying to prove Pakistanis were perverts.
Shame on you for your stupidity - is this really what you want to put your name to?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

Isn't it time we put a stop to this and go back to kicking the clarts out of each other on Israel's war crimes?

.,,.

But we don't disagree about those. They are what distress me above all.

I know you're always going on about how it's only lipservice or ½❤d or something, but I pay no mind to the baseless & assertive sort of argument you always fall back on, as Keith so rightly says, when you haven't got anything else.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM

"Not true Jim, you specifically made that quote."
Which is a reference to your racism, not an attempt to reopen it.
"You have used the word "implant*" 15 times just on this thread!"
Answer the same as above - not an attempt to reopen it.
Live with it Keith, it's a moon that will rise and rise and rise whenever you debate racial issues.
Worth doing here as you seem to have reiterated your position on it.
"when arguments go against you."
Come oonnnn - a joke ceases to be funny when you repeat it so often
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 11:08 AM

You have used the word "implant*" 15 times just on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:10 AM

DO NOT PRESUME TO TELL ANYBODY HERE WHAT AND WHAT NOT TO DEBATE

Yes.
Sorry Jim. A Mudcat thread is about whatever Jim wants it to be about, irrespective of the title, the OP, or what anyone else wants to discuss.

I did state many times that the child abuse issue is not a Muslim issue.
Not one single member of our large Indian Muslim community has been implicated.

I raised your racism, not the fansasised cultural implants you invented.
Not true Jim, you specifically made that quote.
Linking that crime to culture came, not from me, but from people close to or of that culture.

Your attacks on me are wholly groundless and just used as a distraction when arguments go against you.

Re the airstrike, the whole world except friends of Butcher Assad are grateful to Israel for their prompt action.
In over 6 weeks since the OP you have yet to state your opinion Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:31 AM

"Miss R-D's well-known remark"
If you are claiming that the police, judiciary, social workers, and all the others who have warned off drawing racial connotations to cover there own arses, then you are saying that Keith is cringing behind people in responsible positions who have taken the cowards way out on a serious subject and who have nodded through an aspect of racial crimes that needs to be faced head on in all its implications.
On the other hand, it may be the case that, as all of them have said, there is nowhere near enough evidence to place the the blame anywhere and on any particular cultural, racial, social, environmental cause. This was the conclusion of the committee that was set up to examine and report on the causes of these crimes at the beginning of last year. The same committee also added a warning of their findings being used as a racist weapon.
If you and Keith know anything different then you should let us (and them) have it rather than quotes from a prostitute who was also reported to have said "kiss me quick, I'm coming".
Vague accusations like yours may be ironic (I appreciate irony too and realise it can be as effective as an iron bar when used selectively), but in the hands of brain-deads like Keith they can be dangerous, even deadly weapons.
Isn't it time we put a stop to this and go back to kicking the clarts out of each other on Israel's war crimes?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 07:51 AM

To clarify ~~ I know this is a serious topic: and I was there not failing to take it seriously. I was simply replying to your point that all the authorities cited by Keith had taken trouble to distance themselves from any sort of underlying racial connotations. I could have written,

"It was predicable that they would do so, to obviate any possible accusation of prejudice on their own parts";

but it seemed to me more effective to cite Miss R-D's well-known remark at the Profumo trial [it is even in the Oxford Dict of Quotns!], making my point referential rather than declarative, thus calling on a certain degree of momentary consideration and recognition from the reader. It was over-earnest and unnecessarily hostile on your part, to dismiss that so contemptuously as my merely being 'clever-clever'.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM

"I am surprised and disappointed that Mike seems to share them, or at least, is ready to defend them on your behalf.
"Well - in the immortal words of Miss Mandy Rice-Davies..."
I always thought you would move away from being 'clever-clever' to maybe being just 'clever' - ah well; perhaps that's some sort of an implant too"..
,,.,.,.,

Once, Jim, long long years ago, when The Times were running a correspondence on animal rights, they published a letter of mine to the effect that some of their campaigners reminded me of Macauley's dictum that the Puritans' objection to bear-baiting was not that it gave pain to the bear, but that it gave pleasure to the spectators. I came home that evening to four hate messages on my ansafone, one of which, from a spokesman for a group called Animal Rights Extreme, was a literal death-threat ~~ "You deserve to be eliminated for writing such things and you will be eliminated!".

I am afraid, Jim, that your remark above rather reminds me of that mindset. If one can't, even on a thread like this, on however earnest a topic, express oneself with a certain amount of irony, or even a degree of levity, without being denounced in tones of the outmost pejorativity, as 'clever-clever' & so on, I call it a poor look-out for the forum ~ and for the world. I know this is a subject dear to your ♥, Jim. But for god's sake do lighten up just a bit before we are all drowned in floods of our own tears!

~M~