BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:46 PM

More
Jim Carroll

"The carnage began immediately. It lasted forty hours without interruption. The Israelis were able to observe the operations from the roof (seventh floor) of the three Lebanese buildings they had occupied since September 3. They were equipped with telescopes and binoculars with night-vision. In reality, they did not need this equipment because they were only 200 meters away from the major location of the carnage. During these two days, the building swarmed with officers. There was an endless flow of traffic in and out; vehicles of the signal corps, armored vehicles and different units all around. To quote one Israeli officer, watching from the roof of these buildings was like watching "from the front row of a theater." Furthermore, Israeli forward positions manned by paratrooper units were very close to the edges of the camps, and Israeli "Merkava" tanks commanded a view of the area. In addition, Battalion 501 of the Lebanese Army was stationed at the Kuwaiti Embassy traffic circle."

"In the United States, these revelations provoked great embarrassment in the Jewish community, especially after President Reagan attributed to Israel a large share of the responsibility for the massacre. In a statement marked by unprecedented harshness toward the Jewish ally, Reagan recalled that Israel had justified its occupation of West Beirut by stressing that "its move would prevent the sort of tragedy which has now occurred." Furthermore, a high-ranking American official confirmed that the United States "would be extremely surprised if Israel was really unaware of what happened in the camps.'' He added: "Israeli forces evidently controlled the whole sector where the massacres occurred." This time, the Americans were not sparing in their criticism of the Begin government. According to an Israeli journalist, the Americans did so, "perhaps because they themselves felt part of the responsibility. After all, they were the ones who gave Israel the green light to launch its war on Lebanon. The massacre is a consequence of that war that could have been anticipated."

The Chief of Staff expressed his positive impression received from the statement by the Phalangist forces and their behavior in the field and concluded that they continue action, mopping up the empty camps south of Fakhani until tomorrow at 5:00 A.M., at which time they must stop their action due to American pressure. (Final Report, p. 37).
This paragraph is extremely important because it confirms first of all: that the Israeli high command permitted the assailants to continue the carnage for an additional thirteen hours (in fact, a few more hours than that). It also reveals that American, not Israeli pressure, was exerted to stop the massacre as soon as possible. Finally, the statement verifies that the camps were empty whereas Israeli leaders continued to insist that "2000 terrorists" remained behind in Beirut after the evacuation of the PLO as stipulated by the Habib Agreement in August 1982.[12]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:09 PM

To remind, as being I think relevant here, this was my OP, in which, note, I explicitly refuted the admissability of "Italian" as a racist term -

Subject: BS: 'Racism': catch-all accusation?
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 10:05 AM
I gather from an article by Gabriele Marcotti on the back page of 'The Game' section of today's Times that Gennaro  Gattuso has attempted to justify his attacks on Joe Jordan during and after AC Milan's recent match against Tottenham Hotspur by accusations of "racism", which, it appears, Mr Jordan must contrive to confute.  
The article is oddly reticent as to what Signor Gattuso accuses Mr Jordan of saying;  but I gather from Google that the alleged words are "Italian bastard".  I can understand  possible objection to the second word, but can see nothing "racist" about it.  As to the first, Signor Gattuso is Italian, and I fail to see any "racist" connotations in a statement of this fact there either. Even if Mr Jordan's words have been accurately reported, which he categorically denies, what on earth is supposed to be "racist" in accurately mentioning a European person's nationality? 
I carry away from this incident a distinct impression that "racism" has become a sort of catch-all complaint when anyone feels aggrieved for any reason; an unanswerable "yah-boo" justification for any sort of immoderate response ~~ even where no reference to "race" as such has in fact occurred.
If so, then surely this is a trend to be vigorously resisted, as liable to diminish and disinfect any genuine instance where racism is indeed at issue.

And here is your response ~~

Date: 26 Feb 11 - 10:35 AM
Sorry Mike, can't see a lot to disagree with here.
People do over-use the term racism, which, as you say, devalues the coin, but terms like 'PC' and 'nanny state' are equally overused as screens to hide a multitude of sins.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 11:57 AM

"You are as aware as I am that 'racism' is used to refer to generalised attacks on nationalities, cultures, ethnic groups.... and is a disgusting use of semantics to attempt to disguise that fact."
.,,.
I am 'aware' of no such thing: nationality is nationality, culture is culture, & race ['ethnicity' if you prefer] is race.

But talking of semantics, 'disgusting use of', it has been ever a recognised ploy & technique of the Loony Left of which you are such an ornament, to use words in their own specialist sense ['imperialist', 'bourgeois'...], expecting the rest of us to adopt and respect the same emotive overtones as you lot do. The scattergun, kneejerk use of 'racist' is simply the latest example of this technique. Odd that, when I once, a couple of years back, OP'd a thread on this very subject ~~         RE: BS: 'Racism' a catch-all accusation? Feb 2011 -- you, yourself, Jim Carroll, should have posted agreeing with, & deploring, the proposition. But, then intellectual [as distinct from doctrinaire political] consistency has ne'er been one of your characteristics SFAICS.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 11:27 AM

I forgot to add blatant liar as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 10:48 AM

Bobad, ad hominem arguments will not reinforce your knowledge of this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM

Don, New York Times.
The Israelis began to enter the city proper around 5 A.M., according to Mr. Sharon's subsequent statement to the Israeli Parliament. His troops quickly began seizing key intersections. At some locations, fierce gun battles erupted between Israeli soldiers and Moslem militiamen.

The Israelis skirted the Palestinian refugee camps, making no attempt to enter them. There appear to have been exchanges of fire between the Israelis and some individuals in the camps, but these were minor.

By Wednesday afternoon, sniper fire and Israeli shelling had begun around the Sabra and Shatila camps, and it was intensifying.

A spokesman in East Beirut for the Israeli Army, formally known as the Israel Defense Forces, issued the following statement that day: ''The I.D.F. is in control of all key points in Beirut. Refugee camps harboring terrorist concentrations remain encircled and closed. The I.D.F. calls on citizens to return to normal activity and on all terrorists and other armed persons to lay down their arms.''

Around 6 A.M. Thursday, shellfire and gunshots could be heard in the Sabra camp in the vicinity of Gaza Hospital, according to Dr. Witsoe. Although the night had been calm, new groups of wounded people were streaming into the medical center. Israeli Shelling Reported

The artillery fire, many of these patients later said, appeared to be coming from Israeli positions overlooking the camp to the west. Armed elements inside Sabra may also have been firing at targets outside the camp.

According to Zaki, he spoke to a blond, Arabic-speaking Israeli officer who identified himself only as Rami. They spoke near the Bir Hassan post office, across from the stadium. The Israeli perimeter around the camp ran through this area. "I told him I saw a woman shot in the hand who said Haddad men were k illing people," Zaki recalled. "I admitted we had guns in our homes b ut we did not want to fight and were prepared to give them to the I sraelis.

"He told me to go back to the camp and have everyone from age 13 to 50 to bring his weapons here and that I had until 5 P.M.

Nurse Ellen Siegel.
After the assassination of President Gemayel, the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) decided to enter West Beirut. They also ordered the Phalange militia to enter the camps "to search and mop up." This referred to any PLO fighters who might remain there -- but of these there were few.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: goatfell
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 10:25 AM

It's about time something was done about Israel which is good because they have been getting away with for so long.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:59 AM

Pakistanis are not a race"
You are as aware as I am that 'racism' is used to refer to generalised attacks on nationalities, cultures, ethnic groups.... and is a disgusting use of semantics to attempt to disguise that fact.
" perceive yourself as uniquely possessed of some sort of infallible built-in instamatic racism-detector"
You've used this spinelessly dishonest argument before "self-appointed spokesman" etc. It was unpleasantly inaccurate then and it still is.
I get involved in these arguments because they concern me – I was brought up to fear racism; my father volunteered to fight in Spain because he felt that stopping Franco might just stop Hitler's gallop, as did numerous Jews who fought with him.
His brother, my Uncle Jerry, a decorated war-hero, was among those who were present at the opening up of one of Europe's concentration camps; the experience traumatised him.
These subjects disturb me enough to have tried to understand them and am happy to learn more from these discussions.
Your sneeringly dismissive attitude indicates that they don't disturb you to the same extent.
This discussion is over – I wish you and your friend every happiness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:29 AM

""Yes there is Don.
You have not looked.""

Oh yes! Sorry, I forgot.

ISRAEL SAID SO,...RIGHT?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM

""You can download the whole of your book, and the whole contents of Iranian Press TV, Electronic Intifada and all the other nasty, hate filled propaganda sites whose lies you assiduously soak up, gullible dupe that you are.""

Nasty hate filled propaganda sites like Associated Press, UNHRA, B'tselem and Israeli soldiers, Canadian doctors and nurses, as well as eye witness accounts of the Gaza victims of various Israeli incursions over a period of years, and equally graphic descriptions of the way Israeli settlers treat West Bank Palestinians?

Don't see too bad a balance of opinion in that lot and Israel don't fare well in the reports.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:58 AM

Added to which, there is no evidence of any fighters or any arms and ammunition being brought out which might have substantiated the reasons given, by Israel, for deploying their tame terorists.

Yes there is Don.
You have not looked.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:53 AM

""Bulldozers and other equipment were supplied for the legitimate task of clearing the area of fighters.""

More weasel words. You know precisely what those bulldozers were used for, and so did the Israelis. Added to which, there is no evidence of any fighters or any arms and ammunition being brought out which might have substantiated the reasons given, by Israel, for deploying their tame terorists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:42 AM

On a related topic ( Syrian weapons use that affects Israel...)



Israel's military intelligence chief says Syria's Assad readying to use chemical weapons
   T
By Associated Press, Published: March 14

JERUSALEM — Israel's military intelligence chief says Syria's embattled president, Bashar Assad, is preparing to use chemical weapons.

Maj. Gen. Aviv Kochavi told a security conference in the coastal town of Herzliya that Assad is stepping up his offensive against rebels trying to oust him.

Kochavi claims Assad is making advanced preparations to use chemical weapons, but has not yet given the order to deploy them.

He did not disclose information about why he thinks Assad is preparing to use them.

Israel has long expressed concerns that Assad's stockpile of chemical weapons could end up in the hands of groups hostile to Israel like Hezbollah or al-Qaida inspired organizations.

Israel has kept out of Syria's civil war, but it is concerned that violence could spill over the border into northern Israel.






But Jim would complain if Israel takes any action to keep those tens of thousands of Syrians from being gassed. And no one else is about to take action...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:27 AM

Pakistanis are not a race ~~ they are a nationality. You might as well say the French are a race, or the Italians. You would denounce it as racism with your mindset to point out that the French use more garlic in their cooking than some other Europeans; or say that they are being racist in calling us rosbifs because it is our culture to eat lots of that, & the reverse with frogs.

Ho hum right back to you. You are knee-jerkingly incapable of taking my point; so I shan't make it again.

Bye-bye

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

"But that is exactly what nobody has been doing: they have been drawing CULTURAL"
Ho Hum - Pakistanis (Keith's main target) are a race, not a culture)IT IS DEEPLY AND DANGEROUSLY RACIST TO DESCRIBE "ALL MALE PAKISTANIS" AS CULTURALLY INCLINED TO FUCKING AND PIMPING UNDERAGE YOUNG WOMEN keep up Mike
You really should have got yourself a longer spoon - your brain cells seem to be joining Keiths on the floor
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM

To expand ~~ you write

"a warning that it would be totally wrong and malicious to draw any racial; conclusions from any findings"

But that is exactly what nobody has been doing: they have been drawing CULTURAL, not RACIAL conclusions. Can you really not see that distinction? If not, I really do despair!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:13 AM

And you are continuing to sound like Jim; which, for reasons adduced, ingenuous or otherwise, I am entirely unconvinced by.

Just as a for-instance ~~ you have made no response to the distinction I made above between irrational genetic disapproval, which is racism; and distaste induced by certain aspects of certain traditions &/or cultures, which isn't ~~ or, if you think it is, demonstrate how; or continue to prove yourself a knee-jerk analogue to a Football Crazy.

It's all v well to get hoity-toity and fastidious; but you issued me a challenge which I responded to. I did likewise back, which you didn't.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 06:51 AM

Cross posted - can't be arsed with the other completely ingenuous garbage
Really - Mike, you're beginning to sound like Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM

"is a mistaken sort of knee-jerk response, Jim"
You may or may not be right, but until we have some solid proof with facts and figures to go on, these are the rantings of a racist nut-case – what little research that has been carried out is virtually non-existent and comes with a warning that it would be totally wrong and malicious to draw any racial; conclusions from any findings.
The lengths that have been gone to on this forum (largely by one individual) top prove that your friendly neighbourhood Pakistani is a latent (at best) pervert is openly racist and, had it taken place outside the sanctuary of an internet discussion forum, would breach all the laws of incitement to race hatred.
As he has just made crystal clear, the guilty party still holds views that would have him rejected from BNP membership for extremism and is happy to continue expressing them on this forum.
I don't demand that you or anybody stands up to be counted on this or any other issue, but I didn't expect you to support it in the way you have – didn't see that one coming.
Such stuff are Holocausts made of
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM

To continue, Jim, as to what appears to me to be your attitude to the topic. You appear to me to perceive yourself as uniquely possessed of some sort of infallible built-in instamatic racism-detector, some device which goes tiktiktik if certain words, as might be the words 'Pakistani, Bradford, abuse' occur in any contiguity, whatever the context or the point being made: even tho that point may be one that has been attested to by a host of thoroughly respectable authorities, Muslim & other, in addition, say, to Ahmed [who, I repeat, could anyhow have been right then even if wrong now, a point you have chosen not to address as yet] as just cited by Keith; one phrase of whose you habitually take out of context to quote triumphantly back at him as if it had the force of Holy Writ, an act of desperation which works to the complete conviction of absolutely nobody, whenever this geiger-thing of yours gets going.

Well; some news for you ~~ its programming is defective, as evidenced, for instance, by the authorities I have just referred to. I should replace it or get it reprogrammed if I were you; before it really does, as it has long threatened to do, succeed in "rob[bing] you of the little bit of sense you had".

Would you care to comment in your turn?

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:51 AM

,i>, Ellen Siegel, Dr.Ang Swee Chai , the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, The Inequality Report Unicef, Citizen Action, The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Times, New York Times, The Daily Mail, The Washington Post, NBC World News, Reuters, Robert Fisk, The BBC

I used most of those to support my view too.
I did not use sites such as Iranian Press TV, Electronic Intifada and all the other nasty, hate filled propaganda sites whose lies you so assiduously soak up, gullible dupe that you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:45 AM

DO YOU (this is not a rhetorical question, I really would appreciate an answer)?~~~
.,,
And quite justly, Jim. For a start, I most certainly do not believe there are any genetic 'inferiorities' in any demographic, which sort of belief is the basis of racism. But this does not, to my mind, obviate the possibility of certain ingrained traditional or cultural factors, as distinct from any genetic factors, playing a baleful part in the attitudes of some members of certain communities. After all, since you and not Godwin this time have raised the topic ~~ the Nazis contrived for a period to brainwash an entire nation into beliefs which produced consequences which we all now rightly deplore. Do you, then, deny the very possibility that certain imams, Southern Christian fundamentalist preachers, militant political demagogues, etc, could have had a comparable effect on some parts, lesser or greater, of some particular demographies ~~ as it might be small groups of adolescent or post adolescent males of a certain minority demograph conditioned by certain teachings of some of their elders to despise the conduct of some young females of the 'host community' as being contrary to the moralities of their own tradition, thus self-justifying them to exploit them in certain ways?

I honestly believe that entirely dismissing even the possibility of such phenomena as self-evidently 'racist' is a mistaken sort of knee-jerk response, Jim ~~ whence ref to a certain comic song whose underlying meaning, relating to the unfortunate effects of an all-consuming obsession, seems to me to be relevant.

Hope this helps

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:44 AM

"You lose."
Sure I do Keith - I have been totally overwhelmed by your tsunami of evidence and the deafening outcry of support you have been given.
"...nasty, hate filled propaganda sites"
Amos Oz, Yitzhar Smilanski, The Israeli penal code of 1977, Ha'aretz, Jews For Justice, Rabbis For Justice, Israeli soldier eye-witnessed to a massacre, Ellen Siegel, Dr.Ang Swee Chai , the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, The Inequality Report Unicef, Citizen Action, The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Times, New York Times, The Daily Mail, The Washington Post, NBC World News, Reuters, Robert Fisk, The BBC.......... not to mention the many thousands of victims of and eyewitnesses to massacres and other atrocities whose race, religion or culture makes their word unacceptable and so, not worth being presented here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:26 AM

If you believe that 'cultural flaws' have been proven to be the cause of Muslims pimping underage girls (that was Keith's argument)

Not true Jim.
My case was just that there is an over-representation.
It was true then, and has been proved true again and again, in case after case since then.

The cultural explanation came from others who were mostly, like Ahmed, of that community.
I just said I believed it, in the absence of any other explanation.

Do you have a better one?
My mind is open.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:09 AM

I'm talking in general terms Mike - the condemning of races and cultures wholesale because they are Muslim or because they are Jews, or whatever.
Keith used Ahmed and other Muslims to back up his disgusting claim that Muslims are a threat to society because of their culture.
"condone any criticism of any ethnicity"
You really can't be let get away with that particular piece of dishonesty the type of which is used by both Keith and Bruce on a regular basis. Both make such dishonest accusations in a hit-and-run manner and fall silent when challenged. I suggest you look at Bruce's latest offering.
I do not "condone any criticism of any ethnicity" as you so dishonestly put it - I don't believe such flaws have been proven to exist, certainly not to the extent of an entire gender of an entire culture being a latent or active threat to society; neither do those involved in dealing with the problems we were discussing when Keith made his horrific statement - DO YOU (this is not a rhetorical question, I really would appreciate an answer)?
Such suggestions have been used throughout history to excuse the abusing and terrorising of entire races and cultures - I believe the Nazis put great deal of time and effort into 'scientifically proving' that the Jews were cultural and ethnic degenerates.
In Germany it was motivation for systematic mass extermination, it has been a justification for slavery, apartheid, pogroms, colonisation, religious wars.... Today it is used to instigate and terrorise men, women and children of all ages, from ethnic minorities, 'Paki bashing', pouring petrol through letterboxes.... Recently in Ireland we have had a spate of arson attacks on the homes of Travellers who have been forcibly settled and not so long ago in the North ex-paramilitary groups with time on their hands took to to attacking the homes of European economic migrants.
If you believe that 'cultural flaws' have been proven to be the cause of Muslims pimping underage girls (that was Keith's argument) point us to your evidence, and if you claim I have ever defended such crimes because of my fondness for any particular racial or cultural group, please show where I have - clever-clever references to football songs doesn't hack it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:56 AM

Just a topping and tailing aside
Right on que with your "fick friend" personal abuse.
Every time!

It does not help you Jim.
Your denigration of Israel as a "terrorist state" is not accepted by one single progressive liberal democracy in the world.
It is simply not true.

You can download the whole of your book, and the whole contents of Iranian Press TV, Electronic Intifada and all the other nasty, hate filled propaganda sites whose lies you assiduously soak up, gullible dupe that you are.
No-one is fooled.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:20 PM

I have suggested no such thing, Jim. I was talking about Lord Ahmed and nobody else ~~ can you show me, please, where Lord Ahmed ever suggested such a thing. You get confused when these matters come up, Jim. As I have said before, you remind me of Football Crazy Brother Paul: the resolute terror of ever appearing to condone any criticism of any ethnicity has taken away the little bit of sense you had.

Still, I agree, let us not continue too far along this road, as we know that nothing but grief and ill-temper and abuse will be found at the end of it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM

BTW Mike
I once asked you if it would offend you if I described all Jews as tending to be usurers, you replied it would = we are in agreement
Yet here, as elsewhere, you seem to be suggesting that all Muslims tended to be paedophiles = we are not
This is my basis for believing you to be a hypocrite with double standards.
I really don't think we should continue with this.
Bye
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:42 PM

"Hamas is a reactor, not an instigator."

You are so full of shit it isn't even funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:32 PM

compels you to call other points of view lies

I never have and never would, but you saying that Israel restricts food to Gaza is not a point of view.
It is an assertion, and happens to be false.

If you asserted that knowing it to be false, it was a lie.

If you did not know it was false, it was just ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:17 PM

As promised - Exerpts from Amnon Kapeliouk's
Jim Carroll

SHALL BE ACCUSED OF DEATH
After that, the three honorable magistrates declared that the responsibility of Begin, Sharon, Eitan and others is an indirect responsibility. The best response to this declaration came from Amos

Oz, one of the most prominent Israeli writers. He wrote:
He who invites the ripper of Yorkshire to spend a couple of nights in an orphanage of young girls cannot claim, upon seeing the heap of corpses, that he came to an understanding with the ripper whereby the latter would only wash the children's heads.

Novelist Yitzhar Smilanski commented with irony: "We have released famished lions into the arena. They devoured the people, therefore, the lions are the guilty party."

According to paragraph 298 of the Israeli penal code of 1977:
"Whoever causes the death of a person through Commission or omission, shall be accused of murder."

Paragraph 26 of the same code defines accomplices to murder and considers them directly responsible. Israeli responsibility was direct before the beginning of the massacre, and so much the more after the entry of the "Lebanese Forces" into the camps.
At 4:00 P.M. on Friday, twenty-four hours after the beginning of the carnage, the Israeli chief of staff held a meeting with the Phalangist command. According to the summary made by the Mossad (The Institute for State Security - Israel's intelligence agency) representative at the meeting:

The Chief of Staff expressed his positive impression received from the statement by the Phalangist forces and their behavior in the field and concluded that they continue action, mopping up the empty camps south of Fakhani until tomorrow at 5:00 A.M., at which time they must stop their action due to American pressure. (Final Report, p. 37).

This paragraph is extremely important because it confirms first of all: that the Israeli high command permitted the assailants to continue the carnage for an additional thirteen hours (in fact, a few more hours than that). It also reveals that American, not Israeli pressure, was exerted to stop the massacre as soon as possible. Finally, the statement verifies that the camps were empty whereas Israeli leaders continued to insist that "2000 terrorists" remained behind in Beirut after the evacuation of the PLO as stipulated by the Habib Agreement in August 1982.[12] Israeli officials reiterated that the task of "purifying" the camps was delegated to the Phalangists in order to spare Israeli lives and prevent further losses among Israeli soldiers in Lebanon. However, if an actual fact there were hundreds of heavily-armed Palestinian fighters in the camps, no one under any circumstances would have even dared to send in a unit of 150 Phalangists of mediocre fighting ability. The number of Phalangist militiamen participating in the massacre was later increased to 400. Still, the assailants suffered minimal casualties, namely, two dead and two slightly injured.
In light of the abundant evidence and testimonies, it is inconceivable that Generals Sharon and Eitan, the architects of the Sabra and Shatila operation, did not anticipate what was going to happen in both camps. After all, according to the Commission's report, Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan hoped "that in the final analysis, the Phalangist excesses would not be on a large scale.'' (Final Report , p. 77). Thus, the real objective was a small massacre to intimidate the Palestinians and cause them to flee Lebanon -a new Deir Yassin, with the Phalangists interposed this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM

"Hitler was right about smoking:"
But he wasn't right about slaughtering Jews
"So, Lord A could have been right about the predatory Pakistani gangs but wrong about the Jewish conspiracies to bring him down -- couldn't he now?"
Seems to me that bot are racist/cultural generalisations, are part of tha same mindset and are remarkably similar and equally detestable - but that, I suppose, depends where you stand on racist generalisations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:15 PM

Keith, it seems to me that your reasoning is not only inaccurate but based on a system of belief that compels you to call other points of view lies. I see this as a fanatic devotion rather than an attempt to explain your position since the discussion has turned so ad hominem that there is no valuable information to be gained by your diatribes.

If you really believe what you say, a more measured and thoughtful tone would be in order. Your evidence would carry more weight.

As it stands, I have a traditional heritage of Judaism from my mother and am familiar with many Sabras, and in no way do I hate them. I do, however, recognize a warlike pattern in some but not all. I wonder if you, yourself, have a Jewish heritage?
I wonder what motivates your rabid defense?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM

A bit of a slow-burn response, Jim, to your previous point about Lord Ahmed and the way that he had 'let Keith down'. There seems to be an odd non-sequitur in your thinking. Just because he is clearly wrong on this occasion in attempting, absurdly, to excuse his imprisonment for a very dangerous crime by pretending it was all the result of a conspiracy against him, it surely does not follow that his expression on a previous occasion of disapproval and embarrassment at the conduct of some of his co-nationals and co-religionists was either ill-judged or insincere. It is often the case [indeed, probably so with all of us] that one can be right on some occasions and wrong on others. Why even (cover your ears Mr Godwin!) Hitler was right about smoking: I think his formulation that "Cigarettes were the red man's revenge on the white man for gin" one of the most brilliant of aperçus; and my saying so doesn't make Auschwitz OK by any stretch of the imagination, does it?

So, Lord A could have been right about the predatory Pakistani gangs but wrong about the Jewish conspiracies to bring him down -- couldn't he now?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 02:44 PM

Israel's expansion of Jewish settlements is illegal. If its bloody incursions into Palestinian lands and other countries is not deemed illegal by Israeli government leaders then there is something immoral about their view of "law".

Hamas is a reactor, not an instigator. I will make a bet that if Israel were to curtail its illegal wars and expansion and recognize the sovereign rights of Palestinians that Hamas would be quieted and their actions abated.

In the meantime, Israel is a war-mongering country armed to the teeth, now with the present leadership at the helm. Palestinians are just trying to survive in an open air concentration camp.

The U.S., unfortunately, can't be an honest broker in this conflict.

For anything meaningful to happen, all hostilities must cease. There is no "side" in this issue that will solve the problem of co-existence between Palestinians and Israel. As it stands now, any militant partisanship on the part of Israel or Hamas will fall into the vortex of continuing battles, action and reaction.

As is Jim Carroll, I too am an atheist and a pacifist and see no reasonable solution in an Israeli or Islamic theocracy. To quote someone recently, "Science leads to advancement in society and religion leads to war."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 02:09 PM

Just a topping and tailing aside to our failed and hopefully departed friend Mike.
Jim Carroll
BTW I much appreciated and partly agree with your comments on the Barry Norman list - lots of films that should be there and a number that shouldn't IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:08 PM

'I do hope you're not still trying to pin your anti-Semite tag on me'
.,,.

No indeed Jim; but I don't quite see the relevance of this 'hope' to the present discourse re Lord Ahmed & his apparent anti-semitism?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:07 PM

"What have YOU done about the 80,000 plus dead Syrians that Hezboallah"
I realise I am totally wasting my time trying to get you to substantiate any lying accusation here, but if you can give me any evidence whatever that I have given any support to Hezboallah or any religiously driven bunch of nutters I will happily make a substantial donation to any charity of your choice - 1. 2. 3. 4. 5....... and counting.
You are about on par with your friend's lack of self-respect.
I am a pacifist and an atheist - I detest all wars and believe religious ones are the worst and most dangerous - the only support I have ever given on these matters is to the non combatant men women and children who are the victims of Israeli terrorism and its racist/fascist behaviour.
If you have any evidence to the contrary, please put it up.
On the other hand, you and your dumb-fuck mate have consistently supported some of the worst acts of human rights abuses and war crimes by an expansionist terrorist state with nuclear capability.
Your fick friend stood out for not lifting a finger to assist the Syrian rebels with practical assistance, on the contrary, he identified and defended the selling of small arms ammunition to the Assad regime and then suggested that it would have been better if they (Assad's butchers) had been supplied with "riot control gear to quash the Arab Spring protests - if you doubt this the 'Homs Horror' site says it all and more.
He has yet to comment on the British Government's change of heart after allowing (how many did you say) people to be slaughtered by one of Britain's trading partners and allies.
"I have been doing so, to the best of MY ability".
Please try harder - it hasn't registered on the clapometer yet.
You're really are not very good at this, are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM

"
I take it you have no intentions of doing the decent thing Bruce - didn't expect otherwise
"

I have been doing so, to the best of MY ability.





What have YOU done about the 80,000 plus dead Syrians that Hezboallah has been helping to kill with Iranian weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 11:33 AM

800.
No Don.
Serious errors of judgement made individuals responsible for what happened.
That is not at all the same as collusion or complicity, and there is no evidence of it.

Bulldozers and other equipment were supplied for the legitimate task of clearing the area of fighters.

No weazel words.
No complicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 11:25 AM

""Israel accepts and acknowledges responsibility.
They deny complicity.

The soldier and the tank had been ordered to prevent people passing.
They were not complicit in the massacres.""

The soldier was convinced enough about the killings to report several times to his immediate superior, so they knew something nasty was happening.

To accept responsibility and deny complicity is pure sophistry. Do you understand what is meant by accessory before, during and after the fact, to mass murder of innocent civilians?

Because, my friend, that is what Israel is guilty of, and that is what you are defending with weasel words.

Israeli forces acting under the orders of their government introduced Christian Phalangist forces who, they were well aware detested all Muslims, into a camp full of refugees under the pretence of weeding out terrorists, and then blocked every avenue of escape, even turning back terrified people who were obviously unarmed civilians to be slaughtered.

And who was it that supplied the bulldozer to hide the bodies and arranged to build a huge stadium over the mass grave?

Even the Mafia tended to put their kills into bridge supports one by one.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 10:59 AM

I CAN substantiate anything.
You dare not ask.
All bluster.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 10:12 AM

I take it you have no intentions of doing the decent thing Bruce - didn't expect otherwise
You have my position on all this
Unless there is anything further.....
"Who always lets whom down, precisely"
Keith's star witness to "male Pakistani perverts" - who else?
I do hope you're not still trying to pin your anti-Semite tag on me
"tired of The Keith & Carroll Show "
Then don't get involved - simple as that
"I can substantiate anything you ask me"
Oh for ***** sake!
You have been asked, you have refused to answer
The rest is silence!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:53 AM

You have become so frantic in all this that you are now putting up quotes that prove Israel's guilt "ISRAEL AUTHORITIES OR FORCES WERE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE!"

Jim, did you not know that that was the conclusion of Israel's own enquiry?
They acknowledge and accept responsibility.
The danger should have been foreseen.
They should have reacted quicker.
Responsible but not complicit Jim.

I can substantiate anything you ask me to, but you are frightened to ask because you know I do not lie.

Your accusations are false, and that is why your country and all decent democracies have full and friendly relations with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:34 AM

"Iranian weapons continue to pour into Syria from Iraq but also increasingly along other routes, including via Turkey and Lebanon, in violation of a U.N. arms embargo on Iran, Western officials told Reuters on condition of anonymity. Iraqi and Turkish officials denied the allegations.
Iran's acceleration of support for Assad suggests the Syrian war is entering a new phase in which Iran may be trying to end the battlefield stalemate by redoubling its commitment to Assad and offering Syria's increasingly isolated government a crucial lifeline, the envoys said.
It also highlights the growing sectarian nature of the conflict, diplomats say, with Iranian arms flowing to the Shi'ite militant group Hezbollah. That group is increasingly active on the ground in Syria in support of Assad's forces, envoys say.
"


Under UNR 1701, Israel is within it's rights, ( and in fact ENJOINED by the UN) to stop this flow of arms if it ends up in Lebanon.

Of course, ONLY Israel is expected to follow UNR, and then criticised when it does...


"Alleged Hezbollah violations
As of February 2009, many key points in the resolution remained insufficiently addressed. In a special report, United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon mentions that "Hezbollah continues to refuse to provide any information on the release or fate of abducted soldiers, and places conditions and demands for the release that are far outside the scope of resolution 1701," Ban wrote in the report.[47] The report also points out that Hezbollah has replenished its stock of rockets and missiles in South Lebanon, and is now in possession of 10,000 long-range rockets and 20,000 short-range projectiles.[47]
[edit]Alleged Israeli violations
The Lebanese government claims that Israel has violated the resolution over 7000 times "by crossing Lebanese airspace," waters, and border on an almost daily basis since the implementation of the resolution.[48]
[edit]Alleged Lebanese violations
In 2009, Israel filed a complaint with the U.N. that Lebanon was not complying with the resolution after a Katyusha rocket was fired from Lebanon and landed next to a house in northern Israel and injured three people. The complaint affirmed Israel's right to defend itself and its citizens.[49] Later in 2009, when weapons that Hezbollah were hiding in a civilian home in a Lebanese town near the border of Israel exploded, both Israel and UNIFIL complained that Resolution 1701 was being violated by Lebanon and Hezbollah. The IDF estimates that the number of civilian homes in southern Lebanon that are being used to store weapons are in the hundreds.[50] Israel also criticized the Lebanese army, which is responsible for enforcing the resolution, for cooperating with Hezbollah in making sure that the evidence of the violation of the resolution had been cleared up before allowing U.N. peace keepers to do their job.[51] Two days later, fifteen Lebanese civilians from Kfar Shuba a "group of 15 Lebanese civilians carrying Lebanese and Hizbullah flags crossed into the Israeli occupied Shebaa Farms.[52] "[53] The IDF took no action to the provocation, but stressed that it was a violation of Resolution 1701. The United Nations confirmed that Hezbollah violated the resolution and that the group is rearming.[54]
[edit]"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:57 AM

Not really involved in this ~~ tired of The Keith & Carroll Show long since and think it high time a new programme took over:

... but much exercised nevertheless, J, by your last comment. Who always lets whom down, precisely, in what particular & in what context? I get the irony in your tone OK, but cannot for life of me see whither it is directed!
Puzzled

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:49 AM

You have produced no evidence
You have refused to qualify any of your statements
You have twisted and distorted eye-witness statements by editing them into blandness
You have continually lied to back up your non-existent case
You have been discovered in those lies and have refused to acknowledge that fact
You now seem to be desperately gathering quotes that have no bearing on this discussion and putting them up as some sort of twisted argument (feckin' "genocide" for cryin' out loud)
You claim to have read the information, then you prove you haven't by declaring a piece a dozen years out of date when it was written two years
One minute you claim an eye witness statement as proof of your argument, next minute you say they couldn't possibly have seen what they say.
You have become so frantic in all this that you are now putting up quotes that prove Israel's guilt "ISRAEL AUTHORITIES OR FORCES WERE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE!"
I was wrong when I thought discussing you was a waste of time - you have proved beyond all doubt was a disgustingly despicable little jobbie you really are (only saying that because I am losing the argument!!!)
I really do look forward to our future encounters; your contribution here makes a perfect companion-piece to your immortal 'my opinion - all male Pakistanis are cultural perverts' pearl of wisdom.
Jim Carroll
Speaking of your "Muslim Prejudice" performance - I see one of your star witnesses, Lord Ahmed, has described his being jailed for running down and killing a pedestrian "A Jewish conspiracy" - they always let you down, don't they!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:09 AM

The doctor only reported hearsay and rumour.
Like she reported rapes and murders in a hospital that never happened.
Like she reported the Jenin massacre that never happened.
She herself saw nothing of the massacre.

Enough Jim.
You have completely taken over this thread and made it into yet another on this old subject with nothing new to add.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM

"Israel accepts and acknowledges responsibility."
And the rest of the world has declared it complicity - the only unbiased
inquiry to have taken place declared them guilty on all counts.
As you say on one of the few occasions you have been right "denial is not enough".
Ther is a mass of evidence on this site alone to convict them of being war criminals - you have only produced their "denial" to contradict the documented facts.
"Your quote from Dr.Ang Swee Chai is not a report of what she saw."
Her statement is a report (which you attempted to cover up) of what she saw and heard first hand from victims, from Phalanigists who she treated and from Israeli solders she talked to.
What moronic level are you going to reduce this discussion to before you realise that you have only two feet to shoot yourself in and you ran out of those at the beginning?
Your non-arguments are dead in the water - you have refused to qualify any of your claims and by not linking anything you put up you have attempted to disguise the fact that what you have to say is purely your own invention.
You lied about Dr.Ang Swee Chai's contribution being a dust jacket blurb ("possibly written by somebody else" and you edited all the nasty incriminating bits out of what she had to say in order to neutralise them.
A fine mess you've got yourself into this time Stanley!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

Israel accepts and acknowledges responsibility.
They deny complicity.

The soldier and the tank had been ordered to prevent people passing.
They were not complicit in the massacres.