BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM

Jim, Israel accepts that it bears responsibility.
It denies complicity, and there is no evidence for it.

Ellen Siegel gives a full account of her time in the hospital, as does the doctor.
They do not report seeing anything of the massacre.

one minute she saw nothing, next minute she was on top of the hospital building and taking long walks, viewing it all

You claimed I made up her observations from the roof and had to apologise.
The long walk was from the hospital to the edge of the camp and beyond.
She and the doctor were together.

You have been given her statement about seeing the Israelis burying the bodies.
No. You have made that up.


"There were lots of soldiers who spoke out and testified at the time."
Now you are openly lying again - you have rejected these statements as "unreliable"
Not true.
I am suspicious of the ones who only "remembered" long after.

Your quote from Dr.Ang Swee Chai is not a report of what she saw.
It is her opinion of what happened while she was inside the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:06 AM

""The commission's report, Israel in Lebanon, concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were directly or indirectly responsible in the massacres and other killings that have been reported to have been carried out by Lebanese militiamen in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila in the Beirut area between 16 and 18 September""

""ISRAEL AUTHORITIES OR FORCES WERE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE!

Thank you Keith for confirming what we have been saying all along.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:58 AM

""The Un enquiry did not find Israel complicit.
Israel acknowledges it had responsibility as the occupying force, and that is all the enquiry said.""

What would you call the statement of the ISRAELI soldier who was ordered to turn back refugees who told him that the Phalangists were slaughtering women and children, refugees who were then chased back toward the camp by an ISRAELI tank?

Was he lying? And if so, to what purpose?

Purely fortuitously they were able to hide out, and survived, but this is clear and irrefutable evidence of active participation.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:43 AM

""Oh, right, Don ~~ so it's ok to fire an unreliable weapon, because any deaths it causes aren't indiscriminate?

Not sure I follow your logic.""

Not surprising, since you chose to misinterpret it.

Given that we have a situation in which two parties are chucking explosives at one another and killing civilans, it is specious to argue that the possessor of the higher tech weaponry cares more about "collateral damage" (how I detest that dehumanising phrase), than the more primitive party, who cannot avoid such damage.

This a logically fallacious argument, advanced only as an apologia for the entirely unjustifiable actions of the better armed bully.

Israel can take the moral high ground only when they drop their hard nosed refusal to talk to Hamas, as evidenced by their actions over the change of the border crossing operator on the Gaza side.

Whether Israel likes it or not, Hamas is a legally elected government and refusing to deal with them will only perpetuate this situation.

Maybe that's what the Israeli government wants?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:24 AM

"There is nothing more to be said Jim. It is history."
No Keith, any credibility you might once have had is history.
You are the first to mention "genocide" - what on earth has your (once again unlinked) cut-'n-paste got to do with anything except to link Israel to this and other slaughters "Israeli authorities or forces were directly or indirectly responsible in the massacres and other killings" - from your own keyboard!
Do you honestly expect us to believe that hospital staff treating victims at a massacre site didn't know or care enough to find out what was happening?
You dissed Ang Swee Chi's evidence as:
"It is not at all clear how much of that is hers.
It is only taken from a book cover.
Much has been added, and like your other quote is propaganda."
Where on earth did "book cover" come from? It was taken verbatim from a talk she gave.
You have carefully selected the most anodyne piece you can find.

Below are larger sections showing the fuller picture.
Your attitude to Seigal's testimony seems to vaccilate as the mood takes you – one minute she saw nothing, next minute she was on top of the hospital building and taking long walks, viewing it all
You have been given her statement about seeing the Israelis burying the bodies.
Contrary to your claims there are hundreds more accounts of this and other Israeli atrocities.
"There were lots of soldiers who spoke out and testified at the time."
Now you are openly lying again - you have rejected these statements as "unreliable" - if they don't contain facts implicating Israel, why not use them.
Your rejection of the evidence of traumatised Israeli soldiers is probably the lowest you have sunk - and that takes some doing
Jim Carroll

"The 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon killed over 30,000 civilians. The siege of Beirut lasted for 70 days, Beirut was subjected a relentless barrage of air, naval, and artillery bombardment. The Israeli bombardment was random and indiscriminate. Food, electricity and water supplies were cut off - over 500,000 people were driven from their homes. The IDF calculated that they had used some 960 tons of ammunition in trying to destroy the city."

"The US didn't honour its word and three weeks after the PLO evacuation they withdrew the multinational force giving the green light to Israel to invade West Beirut and massacre the Palestinians in the camps."
"The Israelis supervised the operation from their forward command post, a six story building overlooking the camps. From there they gave logistic support and relayed orders to the soldiers on the ground. Concerned that reports of the on-going slaughter would leak out, the soldiers were ordered to continue the killing through out the night - to facilitate this the Israelis lit up the sky with flares all night long. The idea was to kill as many Palestinians as quickly as possible, before international pressure would put a stop to the operation. Over 3000 elderly men, women and children were murdered. Next the evidence had to be buried quickly - so the Israelis send in bulldozers. Houses were packed with bodies and demolished to form mass graves. One such mass grave contained a thousand bodies."

"These are mass graves. You can see the tank tracks - they have just dug up shallow graves and buried all the bodies in the rubble. They have just bulldozed all the houses - actually if you have been watching the television its very much like Jenin [below] recently in Palestine, but on a bigger scale. About 3000 people were killed in those three days, and in this mass grave alone 1000 bodies were buried there."

"I walked towards the sports stadium. I had not found the strength to visit this area before. At sunset, it looked hideous. People had been killed here, people were buried here: I seemed to hear their voices echoing mournfully in the wasteland. This place had been pounded incessantly by Israeli aeroplanes during the siege. During the massacre, it was occupied by the Israelis, and the camp people told me that trucks of men, women and children were taken to the stadium by the Israelis, and many had 'disappeared'."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM

Stringsinger.
Many countries do consider Israel a pariah. What countries could one deem decent

All respected liberal democracies have full and friendly relations with Israel.
Australia, New Zealand, Canada, All European and EU countries icluding Irealand and all Scandinavian countries.

None would if Jim's accusations were true.
They are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:28 AM

On 16 December 1982, the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide.[41] The voting record[42][43][44]

The delegate for Canada stated: "The term genocide cannot, in our view, be applied to this particular inhuman act".[44] The delegate of Singapore – voting 'yes' – added: "My delegation regrets the use of the term 'an act of genocide' ... [as] the term 'genocide' is used to mean acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group." Canada and Singapore also questioned whether the General Assembly was competent to determine whether such an event would constitute genocide.[44]

The United States commented that "While the criminality of the massacre was beyond question, it was a serious and reckless misuse of language to label this tragedy genocide as defined in the 1948 Convention ...".[44]

Such comments led William Schabas, director of the Irish Centre for Human Rights at the National University of Ireland,[45] to state: "the term genocide ... had obviously been chosen to embarrass Israel rather than out of any concern with legal precision".[44]

The commission's report, Israel in Lebanon, concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were directly or indirectly responsible in the massacres and other killings that have been reported to have been carried out by Lebanese militiamen in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila in the Beirut area between 16 and 18 September

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:39 AM

Dr.Ang Swee Chai


[24:30] On 18th September [72 hours in to the killing] a tank came in and ordered all foreigners out of the (Gaza) hospital at gun point. That was the time when we were very worried because we thought that if we are gone they will probably come in and kill our patients. But at the same time you can not argue with a machine gun and we were just forced out. And as I came out of the hospital I saw groups of women and men and children all rounded up by soldiers and while I was passing them one woman tried to give me her baby

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 02:29 AM

ka was me.The witnesses did not back up your version Jim.
The "eye witness doctor" did not even see anything of the massacres.
She was with Siegel in the hospital.
The nurse did not report burials, and only saw soldiers looking towards the camp from outside.
There were lots of soldiers who spoke out and testified at the time.
None were complicit.
The Un enquiry did not find Israel complicit.
Israel acknowledges it had responsibility as the occupying force, and that is all the enquiry said.

We have been through all this on this thread and many previous ones.
There is nothing more to be said Jim.
It is history.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 09:19 PM

Mysterious Guest Ka
"The reliable witnesses do not show Israel as complicit."
Absolute ******* nonsense.
Every single eye-witness has testified to Israel's complicity; the medical staff, the Israeli soldiers, the journalists who interviewed the eyewitnesses... all have stated clearly that Israel instigated and assisted in the massacre.
Even the commanders described the killers as "our friends" and reported back the "everything was going to plan".
The eye witness doctor reported what happened and described treating the victims, the nurse said she witnessed and reporting the burial of the bodies and the soldiers observing the massacre said that the commanders were well aware of what was happening and ordered the men to do nothing.
These Israeli soldiers prepared to speak out backed up every single statement that has been made in the press.
The sole independent survey to be carried out found Israel totally complicit; the only reason Israel was not tried for war crimes was because of the UN veto.
Unless you. Like Keith, rule out all these witnesses as bigoted, anti-Semitic or liars you have no case.
If you have any evidence to back up your claims – feel free..... otherwise, stand with Keith as a massacre denier.

Bruce:
".....to discuss what happened over 30 years ago."
You and Keith seem to think that the fact that the Sabra/Shatila massacre happened 30 years ago makes it no longer relevant – as far as I'm concerned it only goes to prove that this is how long Israeli war crimes have been a feature of Middle Eastern life. In fact, the Brits left Palestine to the sound of hand grenades being tossed into occupied houses by "freedom fighters" clearing the ground for a 'Promised Land', and similar events have been taking place with grim regularity ever since – so don't hide behind that particular heap of garbage, there's plenty more here for you to choose from.
If you want to suggest which of all the warring parties is the greatest criminal, I suggest you consult the body count of all of them – particularly those of women, children and old people or just civilians, please treat this as a piece of rhetoric on my part – I don't imagine for a minute.....!
Add to this the fact that the Palestinian rocket attacks that you mob set so much store on as a defence of continuing atrocities, post date Israel's territorial aggression , attempts to control Palestinian economy and way of life and efforts to ethnic cleanse or evict the inconvenient Palestinians to make room for settlers - by at least 20 years
Having accused, along with your dumb buddy, those of us who oppose Israeli terrorism as being 'anti-Semitic', would you say discussion on The Holocaust was not a relevant subject of discussion because it ended 78 years ago? (as you nor Keith appear not to go in for answers, please treat this as another piece of rhetoric)
"open another thread YOURSELF....."
It appears to have escaped your notice that this thread has long drifted from the original topic to take on the more general one of Israel's human rights and war-crimes record – your moronic mate was very much a part of that drift and as far as I am concerned, it is an entirely relevant aspect of this discussion – "thread drift" is one of your "all the lights on but nobody at home" oppo's favourite ploys; it shows a 'chicken -shit streak down the backs of both of you.
As Keith once said after whingeing incessantly about thread-drift and then taking the thread completely out of the area of the subject totally "thread drifts happen" – everybody does it at one time or another and calling foul is merely an extremely spineless way of avoiding difficult or embarrassing subjects.
"The entire world except Jim and Don"
Utter bollocks: the "entire world" has passed no such pronouncement, and should it ever be consulted I have little doubt that the sensible section of it would be as scared shitless as I am at the idea that a terrorist state with a record of atrocities against civilians as long as Keith's list of pronouncements needing qualification, and a nuclear capability, should take it into its head to attack other states with equally dubious records in an area that is a powder keg, thanks to the religious nutters of all persuasions who lurk there.
Don is quite capable of speaking for himself, but my only statement on the OP was just that –the idea of a rogue terrorist state flying about and attacking any nation as it takes their fancy inspires me to check in the garden to see if we have room for a bomb shelter – that is all I have ever said or have to say on a matter I have no great knowledge on.
Now – to our one-to-one dispute:
You are quick and insistent enough to demand answers (even when you've already been given them) ; I have taken the time to responded to your question with what I believe to be an honest answer; please have the common decency (in short supply between you pair of shits) and good manners to acknowledge you have read it and whether it meets with your satisfaction, otherwise, kindly go and piss up your kilt
Yours as ever
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 07:00 PM

Don, get a google map or satellite image of Gaza.
There is far more open land than inhabited land.
Hamas' missiles are indiscriminate and illegal.
Their use is a war crime, and firing them from civilian areas is another war crime.
They are aimed at towns in the hope of murdering ordinary folk and their children.
And, when they use precision weapons, suicide bombs, they explode them on buses crowded with ordinary folk and their children.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:56 PM

All right, Bobad. Allow me to comment by citing the report:

"The UNHRC report said that Israel's settlement policies violate article 49 of the fourth Geneva convention, which prohibits the transfer of civilian populations to occupied territory. It says the settlements are "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination."

What's not to understand?

Many countries do consider Israel a pariah. What countries could one deem decent, only those that follow the AIPAC propaganda line? What reliable witnesses? This issue is highly charged by fanatical defenders of the Israeli government. They tend to distort the inhumanity of the Zionist government, and justify its warlike behavior and downplay the exorbitant armaments that Israel possesses making it a force against peace in the world with the aid of the misguided U.S. leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:41 PM

""precision and restraint" is a hollow joke. The National Post sounds like a right-wing rag."

I note that you avoid commenting on the UNHRC report and instead attack the medium that is commenting on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,ka
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 11:45 AM

No Jim.
The reliable witnesses do not show Israel as complicit.
Israel acknowledged that people should have forseen events and should have acted sooner.
The UN enquiry found them "responsible" only by virtue of them being the occupier.

There is no compelling evidence for any culpability beyond the above.

If Israel was guilty of all your accusations in would be a pariah.
Decent countries including yours do not regard it as such.
It is all bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM

Keith, . I don't hate Israel. I don't like what they are doing. Your ad hominem remarks
vitiate any credible evidence that you might have presented. I know people in Israel and I know just as much about it as you do evidenced by your limited display of knowledge.

I know many Zionists to be warlike and not peaceful.

I also know that war is built into religious cultures but despite that there are plenty of peaceful Jews who think what Israeli government is doing is anathema.

You can call me all the names you want to, Keith, but your evidence is flimsy, and based on almost a fanatical defense of the indefensible. There is no justification for the inhumane practices of the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:33 AM

Oh, right, Don ~~ so it's ok to fire an unreliable weapon, because any deaths it causes aren't indiscriminate?

Not sure I follow your logic.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:24 AM

""The report does not spare Hamas from criticism. While chastising Israel for the incidents where it struck without warning or apparent military targets, it notes that, "Many, if not the vast majority of the Palestinian attacks on Israel constituted indiscriminate attacks." Hamas is also criticized for targeting civilians, firing from populated areas and summarily executing alleged Israeli spies.

Israel is not perfect, and some its policies can serve to give even its closest allies pause. But the UNHRC report can, and should, be read as further proof that Israel makes every reasonable effort to wage war against a determined, indiscriminate enemy with precision and restraint.""

While I agree, and have repeatedly said, that Hamas actions are deplorable, I would like to know how they could be blamed for firing from populated areas, when they are confined by Israeli action to one big populated area. Land and water are so scarce there is little that could be called rural in the whole of Gaza.

Alao there is a taint of bias in picking on one or two isolated incidents of friendly fire deaths, and extrapolating to the entirely unjustified conclusion that Israel is innocent of the majority of deaths, or that thy are particularly bothered about Gaza civilians dying at their hands.

Indiscriminate is a rather inappropriate description for the use of unguided munitions, since that is the nature of a basic rocket such as are used by Hamas. If they had the capacity to target more accurately, there might be a case for charging them with indiscriminate use, but when the rocket cannot be guaranteed to hit a village with any certainty, let alone a military target within that village, the charge is nonsense.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM

Keith
FactYou have relied entirely on Israeli denials - nowhere have you produced statements from anything resembling evidence from independent sources
FactThe information you have been given comes from reliable and trusted sources who have no reason to lie, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, The UN, Israeli official and unofficial sources, medical teams, Israeli soldiers who eye-witnessed the massacre...... from reputable sources all over the world
FactThe only independents inquiry into the massacres found Israel totally culpable, which confirms every other independent account you have been given
FactUnless you are able to provide proof that the information you have been given is wrong or "lies", then it stands as fact; with this amount of provided evidence against none of your own, the evidence corroborated and proven evidence stands
FactISRAEL STANDS GUILTY AS CHARGED ON ALL COUNTS
FactNowhere have you provided reliable (in most cases none whatever) links to the claims you have made
FactYou promised to clarify anything you have not made clear
FactYou have failed to do so and made it clear that you don't intend to honour your promise
FactYou have here a bundle of requests for clarification, if you fail to respond you are continuing to lie – publicly
FactYou will in no way respond to this honestly
FactBoth Israel and you have been proved guilty, Israel of mass murder and state terrorism, you of lying to defend that mass murder and State terrorism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 08:36 AM

Jim,

"As far as Hamas's behaviour - start a thread - this one is already to overflowing with lying bullshit to add yet another pile"


So stop posting the BS you have been. Talk to the thread topic, or open another thread YOURSELF to discuss what happened over 30 years ago.


The entire world except Jim and Don have determined that the Israelis were acting within the UN Resolution concerning arming of Hezboallah in destroying the weapons in Syria.

THAT is the topic of this thread- If you want to castigate Keith for not believing your statements, START ANOTHER THREAD YOURSELF.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 07:59 AM

Also, Ireland denies it all.

Ireland is keen to deepen its links with Israel, in particular through growth in tourism, commerce and investment, as well as more traditional sectors such as food and drink. I encourage visitors to our website to visit the websites of the tourism, culture, food and business promotion agencies working for the Irish Government, which can be accessed on this webpage. Ireland welcomes your interest and looks forward to supporting your interest in these sectors.

I am very conscious of the popularity of Irish culture in Israel today. It is exciting to see Israeli musicians participating in traditional Irish music "sessions" and bringing out their own CD's. Israeli dancers are also taking to the stage in increasing numbers to learn and perform Irish dance. At the Embassy, we will continue to do all we can to support these and other expressions of Irish culture in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:56 AM

Jim, you accuse Israel of all those ludicrous, extreme crimes against humanity.
Of course Israel denies them so it is up to you to substantiate your claims, and you can not.

It is not just Israel who denies them.
EU countries would have no dealings with a country guilty of such things.
Nor Scandinavia. Nor Canada or any other decent country.
It is all lies.

Israel is hounded at the UN by nasty little dictatorships and military regimes whose rights abuses and crimes leave Israel far behind.
Such states can dominate the General Council and other UN bodies but decent countries understand it is all bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:35 AM

And you continue to lie with your evasions - you have had acres of proof and you refuse to supply a single scrap of your own nor have you attempted to verify a single thing you claim, something you cannot claim of anyone else here - but I sincerely hope you do.
I expected nothing more and was not disappointed - once more you openly lied.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM

Not one single link here concerns the poisoning of Bedouins, the fascist eviction of one racial group to make room for another, the massacre of 3,500 unarmed and helpless refugees, the use of chemicals on human beings and livestock - or any single one of the disgusting claims you have made here

No Jim, it is YOU who have claimed all those things but failed to substantiate one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 04:57 AM

Keith
Not one single link here concerns the poisoning of Bedouins, the fascist eviction of one racial group to make room for another, the massacre of 3,500 unarmed and helpless refugees, the use of chemicals on human beings and livestock - or any single one of the disgusting claims you have made here - you promised clarification to your claims - you lied.
"Just give me an example Jim.
I promise to substantiate or withdraw."
As you said earlier, the only claims of Israel's innocence in all these atrocities are denials by the perpetrators of the atrocities.
Bruce
Once again you have avoided answering my reply to your question - I take it you are satisfied that I am not denying Israel's right to be listened to.
Over and out on that one.
As far as Hamas's behaviour - start a thread - this one is already to overflowing with lying bullshit to add yet another pile
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:24 PM

My own country has been involved in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years, and atrocities always happen in wars, that's what they're about. In Australia they lock up refugees til they go mad or commit suicide, yet many people in Australia are more upset about what happens overseas than what our country does to its Indigenous Australians and to asylum seekers. It's so easy to get outraged about what another country is doing, but so much harder to spend time working to improve things in your own neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:19 PM

.
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 05:14 PM

"precision and restraint" is a hollow joke. The National Post sounds like a right-wing rag.

From Wiki:"The National Post is a Canadian English-language national newspaper based in Don Mills, a district of Toronto. The paper is owned by Postmedia Network Inc. and is published Mondays through Saturdays. It was founded in 1998 by media magnate Conrad Black. Black established the Post to provide a voice for Canadian conservatives and to combat what he considered to be a liberal bias in Canadian newspapers[citation needed]. Black built the new paper around the Financial Post, an established financial newspaper in Toronto which he purchased from Sun Media in 1997. Financial Post was retained as the name of the new paper's business section.

The National Post begins to look like the New York Post or Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM

"But the UNHRC report can, and should, be read as further proof that Israel makes every reasonable effort to wage war against a determined, indiscriminate enemy with precision and restraint."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 04:19 PM

Jim, this thread was about events of recent weeks.
Unfortunately, Israel was not just blameless in those events, but actually praiseworthy, so you once again dragged up this thirty-one year old bit of history, as you have so often before.
No-one else, just you Jim.
I think that there is nothing that has not already been said and said again about it.

Again you accuse me of unsubstantiated claims.
Remember you accused me of making up two incidents from Siegel's testimony?
I substantiated both and you had to apologise twice.
How could you forget?

Starter for ten - despite all the masses of evidence you have been given on the part Israel played in the Sabra Shatila massacre, you have denied that it took no part whatever in the slaughter of up to 3,500 refugees -
No, Israel denies any part in the killings.
I just deny seeing any evidence that contradicts their version.
My mind is open.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 04:06 PM

Editorial from today's National Post newspaper

On Nov. 14, 2012, the Israeli Defense Forces began Operation Pillar of Defense, aimed at Hamas' Gaza-based network of rocket batteries and terrorist hideouts. Soon after the conflict began, tragedy befell one Palestinian family. Their home was destroyed by a powerful explosion. Three civilians, including an 11-month-old boy, were killed.

The father of the child was a photojournalist working for the BBC in Gaza. Photos of his anguished reaction to the tragic loss of his son were seen around the world, and quickly became a rallying point for those opposed to the Israeli operation. Media reports laid the boy's death at Israel's feet. Journalists slammed the death of the child of one of their own. Israel again faced criticisms that its attacks, no matter the provocation, could not be justified.

But, thanks to a new report from the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC), we now know better.

The 17-page report, released last week, provides a detailed breakdown of the seven-day conflict between Israel and Hamas. It documents the military actions, and casualties, of both sides. And it concludes that the missile that killed the young child was, in fact, a Hamas rocket. It apparently malfunctioned and crashed into Gaza on its way to Israel, after being launched by Hamas from a position near the family home — itself a violation of international law. (The report also concludes that another child killed in the fighting, whose body was shown in public being kissed by the visiting Egyptian prime minister and senior Hamas officials, was also killed by errant Hamas fire.)

The reassignment of the responsibility for these terrible incidents is just some of the bad news for Israel's critics to be found in the report. It is true that the UNHRC did cite several incidents where Israel's conduct may not have been fully in line with international law, including several in which civilian areas were hit either accidentally or without prior warning, and several others where media or medical facilities were struck by Israeli munitions. (There are indications that at least some of these incidents were accidents, including one where a hospital roof was struck by illumination flares that failed to ignite in midair as designed, causing minor damage). We trust Israel will review these incidents, and draw the appropriate lessons from them.

But the relative handful of potential violations pales next to the enormous scale of the military operation. Israel conducted 1,500 air strikes on targets within Gaza, as well as seven naval attacks and several hundred strikes with artillery, but the UNHRC found that only 101 civilians deaths could be attributed to Israeli military action. Considering the densely populated nature of Gaza, such accuracy represents a level of precision essentially unknown in any prior war in history.

Every civilian death is a tragedy, of course, and every effort should be made to avoid such incidents in the future. Yet the report makes clear that many of these civilians were killed, not because Israel was aiming at them, but because they had the terrible luck of being in the vicinity of legitimate targets that Israel was striking in response to continued Hamas aggression. The UNHRC's experts are naive if they believe that any country, in any war, can find a way to prevent any civilian casualties when fighting erupts in urban areas.

And Israel rarely struck without warning. During the week-long conflict, Israel dropped 200,000 leaflets, made 20,000 telephone calls and sent 12,000 text messages, warning civilians in Gaza of imminent military actions and urging them to seek safety. (Apparently blind to the irony, the UNHRC concluded that such warnings may make Israel guilty of intentionally displacing civilians, only several pages after criticizing Israel for not always providing sufficient warning of planned combat operations in populated areas.)

The report does not spare Hamas from criticism. While chastising Israel for the incidents where it struck without warning or apparent military targets, it notes that, "Many, if not the vast majority of the Palestinian attacks on Israel constituted indiscriminate attacks." Hamas is also criticized for targeting civilians, firing from populated areas and summarily executing alleged Israeli spies.

Israel is not perfect, and some its policies can serve to give even its closest allies pause. But the UNHRC report can, and should, be read as further proof that Israel makes every reasonable effort to wage war against a determined, indiscriminate enemy with precision and restraint.

National Post

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM

Don,

You really need to look at Al Jazeera every once in a while and see the Arab viewpoint...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:52 PM

""When Hamas talks about Jews instead of Israelis, one has to wonder about the protests of them NOT being anti-Semitic ( in the commonly accepted term- I realize both Palestinians and Israeli Jews are Semitic).""

When Hamas are talkng about "Israelis", they are talking about a country with a population composed of Jews, Muslims and Bedouin Arabs, the government of which claims it is a ""Jewish State"".

They don't see a distinction (how could they) between government and people. All they see is that this Jewish State oppresses them, seemingly without opposition from anybody including most of their Arab and Muslim neighbours.

I don't claim that they are not anti semitic. I would be surprised if they weren't.

Nonetheless, they are as entitled to a life as anyone else, whatever you or Keith may think to the contrary.

Under Israel's thumb, they aren't getting it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM

The radar tracks are available to the UN, and there has been no claims by the Palestinians that the information is inaccurate.

And I have seen the pictures FROM ARAB SOURCES of the launches from those areas- usually the parking lot just outside the entrance, from a pickup truck which fires a folly, then moves off. leaving the civilians to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:40 PM

""and the continuing Palestinian war crimes of placing rocket launch sites in civilian areas such as homes, schools, and hospitals, THEN I might be more willing to look at your complaints about Israeli crimes.""

But you see BB, we have only the Israeli govenment's word for that, in justification of their indiscriminate bombing and shelling of more homes, schools and hospitals than the terrorists have rocket launchers.

You see our problem. Israel's word is not a commodity which you would bet your house on.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:38 PM

"Are you (like Keith) claiming that one atrocity cancels out another, one regime is as bad the other.... or what?"

Atrocities do NOT cancel out.

But the Israeli responsibility was its failure to take action to prevent the killing.

I acknowledge that failure.

It was wrong to NOT take action.


Now, will you admit it is wrong for Hamas to actively continue in it's present war crimes of random rocket launches against a civilian population, placing military assets in prohibited civilian areas such as schools and hospitals, and executing political opposition members without benefit of trial, all "Crimes against Humanity" as defined by law?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:32 PM

No answer Bruce
You asked:
"So, Jim, what you are saying is that EVERYTHING posted on an Arab/AntiZionist site must be believed, and NOTHING on an Israeli/Zionist site is to be believed???"
I replied:
On the contrary Bruce – keep up.
Keith has rejected literally all information criticising Israel as coming from biased, unreliable and in some cases Anti Semitic sources (the latter being one of your much used accusations too), while the rest of us have questioned Israeli information only when it contradicts well researched and widely accepted and proven facts.
Keith's latest spectacular own-goal in his writing off what is, as far as I can see, the definitive work on Sabra and Shatila massacre by Jewish, Jerusalem resident (as was - he's dead nowadays!) Amnon Kapeliouk thus "Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews".
In ascribing Israeli atrocities to "Jews" rather than "the Israeli regime" is deeply anti Semitic – I would have thought you would have been deeply offended by such viciousness, yet you seem to subscribe to that school of thought yourself – please tell me it isn't so!!
As you see, your reply bears no relationship to your question or my reply.
Are you (like Keith) claiming that one atrocity cancels out another, one regime is as bad the other.... or what?
Looking forward to hearing from you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:30 PM

The idea of Palestinians being described as "Arabs" is condescending in itself, a ploy used by many Zionists to disenfranchise a Palestinian heritage or state. It's the same as equating all Jews with Zionism. The settling of this part of the world goes back historically prior to the Zionist movement to reclaim that part of the land for Biblical reasons. Actually historically, the Jewish population under Islamic early times (Salidin) were treated humanely. It's true they were taxed but tolerated.
The strip of land now known as Israel was not predominantly Jewish but mixed with other religious groups. It's not news that Islam and Judaism have a contentious heritage but who owns the Temple Mount really? Who was there first? I doubt whether Palestinians are allowed to visit the Wailing Wall so what is being talked about here?

The only solution I see for this religious conflict to end is for Zionists to share the country with Palestinians under a single state with equal representation and no second class citizens. In this way, the U.S. is a model of diversity for Israel and true to the original American spirit of inclusion. The State would have to be a mixture of Socialism and Capitalism which in a way is what it originally started with under Ben Gurion. Since then, Israel has become a theocracy whereas the Palestinian State is yet to be recognized in any form.

I fear that a dual state solution would result in pretty much the same thing that goes on now, with Palestinians in a Canton or ghettoized. This would be preferable, however, to what they have now, an open air concentration camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:22 PM

""He went to find witnesses against Israel, and luckily he found them or he would have had no book.
But, we all know that witnesses can always be found to denounce Israel, even when there has been no crime.
They lie.""

Don't be silly Keith! There are far too many similar reports for that statement to have any credibility.

In that excerpt is an Israeli soldier, clearly stating that he repeatedly reported the situation and was told not to worry. He even commented that some women ran away and escaped while he was doing this.

So you, without evidence or justification "know" that he is lying.

Your claims to be able to read minds are getting more unbelievable with every post.

Earlier you admitted that Israel wasn't perfect (under extreme pressure and much protest from you), so some criticism would obviously be true and deserved.

Yet you adamantly insist that all who criticise Israel are LIARS.

You are either a fool, or a bigot. Care to tell us which?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 02:59 PM

Jim,

"In ascribing Israeli atrocities to "Jews" rather than "the Israeli regime" is deeply anti Semitic – I would have thought you would have been deeply offended by such viciousness, yet you seem to subscribe to that school of thought yourself – please tell me it isn't so!!
"

Are the Palestinians jihadists ( as Hamas states in their charter, declaring they want to kill all Jews?) ?


"Killing Jews is worship that draws us closer to Allah," reads one of the ads, which has people debating the line between free speech and hate speech.

"The purpose of our campaign is to show the reality of Jihad, the root causes of terrorism. Using the exact quotes and text that they use," said Pamela Geller of the American Freedom Defense Institute."
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/03/11/killing-jews-is-worship-ad-campaign-rolled-out-on-sf-buses/



When Hamas talks about Jews instead of Israelis, one has to wonder about the protests of them NOT being anti-Semitic ( in the commonly accepted term- I realize both Palestinians and Israeli Jews are Semitic).

I have acknowledged that Israel had responsibilities that it did not meet in Lebanon, but I have not absolved the Lebanese, nor the Palestinian fighters either, from their active roles that you ignore in blaming Israel for it's passive one of NOT stepping in.

As I have stated, the present state of Jordan was formed as THE PALESTINIAN ARAB HOMELAND with Jewish settlement prohibited- on 77% of the Mandate Palestine ( The Jewish Homeland of the treaty breaking up the Ottoman Empire) territory. Israel settled the Jews driven out of Arab countries- WHY SHOULD THEY GIVE ANY LAND to the present Palestinian refugees? When you address the tens of thousands of Palestinian refugees killed by Jordan ( go back and look) and the greater number of Jews driven from their homeland than "Palestinian Arabs ( 820,000 Jews vs 640,000 Arabs), and the continuing Palestinian war crimes of placing rocket launch sites in civilian areas such as homes, schools, and hospitals, THEN I might be more willing to look at your complaints about Israeli crimes.


BTW, Most of the Palestinians I know were Christians driven out of Ramallah in 1948 BY THE ARABS. Jordan held the West Bank from 1948 to 1967- Tell me how well the Jewish population was treated before you talk about present Israeli policies toward its minorities.

Undr Israel, Arabs have control of the Temple Mount- Under the Arabs, Jews were not even permitted to access the Wailing Wall. Which do you think is a fairer basis to treat people?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

Right
Starter for ten - despite all the masses of evidence you have been given on the part Israel played in the Sabra Shatila massacre, you have denied that it took no part whatever in the slaughter of up to 3,500 refugees -
give us the evidence you base this claim on - the perpetrators claiming that they didn't do it does not count as evidence.
'Way you go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM

"Jim's desperate attempts to change the subject."
Are you out of your mind or do you think we are?
Are you seriously attempting to claim that a topic that has been part of this thread from its earliest postings and has been contributed to here by many participants is "thread drift"?
You really are a ruthlessly dishonest little prick.
And don't you dare try to implicate another member of this forum in your lying.
Stringsinger has just re-introduced another aspect of your human-rights abuses denials, and it is perfectly valid of him of him to have done so.
This thread, thanks to your own fanatical defence of every single atrocity carried out and facilitated by Israel, is about your own slimy efforts to defend massacres, war crimes, human rights abuses, racism, ethnic cleansing, the poisoning of whole communities, chemical warfare..... you name it, you've defended it.
You seem to now be a self-appointed Lord Haw-Haw for Israel
Do not treat us as morons - go look in the mirror if you want one.
"If I have failed to substantiate something, just tell me what it is."
And your moronic repetition of this only serves to underline your extremely disturbed state of mind.
You have not qualified one single statement of yours with evidence, you have not even provided links to your claims - all but a few of them are your twisted inventions, the rest are lifted from dedicated Israeli propaganda sites.
I suggest you start at the first claim you have made here and either show us where you have qualified it or now provide a link so we may do so for ourselves.
You have an extremely wide field - so far you have substantiated nothing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 12:11 PM

Yeah, I know about AIPAC. Pity most yanks don't seem to. They are the enemies of democracy and need to be exposed as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:50 AM

Stringy, I don't blame you for ignoring Jim's desperate attempts to change the subject.

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:54 AM

You want something new? - as fresh as this morning's news.
What's a girl to do - ignore, deny or accuse Unicef of being antisemitic - choices, choices?
Jim Carroll

PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ILL-TREATED BY ISRAELI MILITARY, SAYS UNICEF.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:36 AM

To add insult to injury:
Israeli child abuse

Steve, AIPAC is a highly prejudicial organization, pro-Zionist that is evangelical
in its approach to countering opposition. They are only really popular in the U.S. since the rise of para-military organizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:31 AM

The paratrooper had only been told of crimes by someone.
He passed it on but it was not believed.
"However, he added: "Everybody was sure it was just hysterics.""
Not lies.
Not antisemitism.
Just not evidence of complicity.


If I have failed to substantiate something, just tell me what it is.
You can't though.
It is just bluster.

This historical dead end is only "the subject in hand at present" because you dragged it up, as you always do when a ME thread goes against you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM

Just a reminder of you are calling a liar - Haaretz is Israel's oldest national newspaper - the Israeli equivalent of the Guardian or the Independent - and its sources were Israeli soldiers.
One more time "Why - anti Semitic or what?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:18 AM

"Remind me why we have to discuss this piece of history anyway.
Because this is the subject in hand at present
Do you still want me to substantiate anything?"
You have not substantiated one single thing you have said not with evidence nor even with links to your claims - and this continues to be the case.
No - I don't want you to substantiate anything any more - you have failed to respond to do so despite constant requests - your input here is no more than your own twistd invention.
I'm more than happy to continue to point out that fact for the length of this thread - and to point out your crass, self-important arrogance in imagining that what you have to say has anything to do with the real world.
I ask again "Why - anti Semitic or what?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:52 AM

If we have to go through your whole book we will be here for years.
Remind me why we have to discuss this piece of history anyway.
Do you still want me to substantiate anything?

The paratrooper had only been told of crimes by someone.
He passed it on but it was not believed.
"However, he added: "Everybody was sure it was just hysterics.""

" would be unwise for the Israeli Army to be involved."
A report that appeared only in one paper, and who was the informant?
Was there an informant?
Who knows. It was thirty one years ago!
Now, what was this thread supposed to be about before you hijacked it as you always do when it goes against you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM

" suggests complicity anyway"
"On many occasions, Israeli officers in constant contact with the Christian forces heard such remarks as: "We'll cut their throats," or "blood will be knee-deep."
"However, a higher-ranking officer rejected the idea on the spot. He argued that one would expect the Phalangists to commit irregularities, thus, it would be unwise for the Israeli Army to be involved."
"They lie."
""Ha'aretz correspondent Michael Gerti and photographer Uzi Keren, who arrived at Shatila the day after the massacre, filed the following account by two Israeli paratroopers: ""
Why - anti Semitic or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:55 AM

None of the examples in your last post suggests complicity anyway.