BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:33 AM

But what about the airstrike Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:42 AM

Yes it has, Kendall, and a host of others as well - but there's no evidence for ANY of the attributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:03 AM

So what? it's a true quote. It's like that other quote, "Success has a hundred fathers, failure is an orphan". (Maybe not an exact quote)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:47 AM

""Of the 91 decisions made by the United Nations body since it was created three years ago, so far, 39 have singled out Israel for criticism, while only three votes have involved Syria, and one dealt with Iran."""

Could that be because the problems with Iran and Syria concern domestic matters within their own borders, which, however much one might deplore them, are not anybody else's business, while Israel's Imperial aggression is destabilising the whole Middle East region?

If I may expand on my earlier reply, no it could not Don.
The "body" was The Human Rights Council which considers abuses within states.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 12:03 PM

"But what about the airstrike Jim?"
Are your really trying to provoke another one-to-one?
You've had your answer - the fact that, as usual, you can't be arsed to read it is your problem.
Do not tell others what and what not to answer.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:50 PM

So what? it's a true quote.

That makes no sense, Kendall - it can't be a "quote" if it has no author - but I'll let it go.

Also, its a rather foolish & simplistic sentiment, but I'll let that go, too.

Cheers,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:20 PM

""While technically at war this whole time, in reality, their conflict has been punctuated by several major (though short), wars and numerous cross-border attacks and air battles.""

When was the last cross border attack or air battle in Israeli territory or airspace Keith? In other words, is this another "war" in which all the aggression is on the Israli side.

""No-one has been invaded, they just stopped a serious violation.""

Crossing the border and destroying vehicles, equipment and personnel belonging to a separate sovereign nation sounds like a prety fair description of invasion, and your comment about dealing with a violation is simply untrue.

Any nation wishing to do that would be required to be acting under the terms of a UN resolution to that effect, not a mere declaration of illegality.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:23 PM

UNSCR 1701

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:45 PM

What bugs me the most is that I feel that Israel is trying to suck the US into a war of Israel's choice...

I think Israel needs to chill a little here and allow the US and Iran a little breathing room as there is a renewed interest on both sides to move toward direct talks between the two...

There is enough destabilization in the region now without creating even more...

And please, no sermons on how Iran says this or that... That's been going on for decades... Let's break that cycle and try to find peaceful ways to move forward...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:46 PM

What bugs me the most is that I feel that Israel is trying to suck the US into a war of Israel's choice..

Of course Israel is, and they'll likely succeed, because no-one has the balls to stand up to Israel & the atrocities they commit and the international laws they break out of fear that someone will call them "anti-semites".

Its unfortunate BS - and Hagel was spot on - there IS one hellacious Israel Lobby operating in the U. S.

What's the truism that persons who are abused will grow up to abuse others?

Q.E.D. in spades.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:37 PM

Don, was Britain invaded thousands of times in 1940.
Of course an airstrike is not an invasion, silly!
Syria has invaded Israel several times and fired thousands of artillery rounds into Israel.

Providing advanced weaponry to Hezbollah would be explosively and catastrophically destabilising.
I take it that nobody here would want that, but they were on their way.
Israel was the only power in the world in a position to enforce the UN ban and stop te delivery in time, and they achieved it with little loss of life.
How about one cheer for them?

Jim, you use this thread as just another platform for your rabid anti-Israel propaganda.
You refuse to address the subject of the thread, and become offensively abusive when just asked for your view on the thread subject.
Your have made no contribution at all to the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:58 AM

Don, please could you clarify your view on this.
You seem to be OK with the UN ban, and OK about someone enforcing it, as long as it is not Israel.
Right?
Presumably because everything Israel does is automatically wrong.
Right?

In what way could someone else have done it better?
The advanced weapons were on their way to the Hezbollah terrorists.
Last year in Bulgaria Hezbollah blew up a bus, killing a local driver and five young Israeli tourists, one of them pregnant.
http://world.time.com/2013/02/05/u-s-bulgaria-likely-to-link-hizballah-to-bus-bomb/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 03:40 AM

"You refuse to address the subject of the thread, "
I have addressed the subject of this thread - you choose once again to ignore it.
Israel is a terrorist power with imperialist aims, consistently annexing land and building illegal settlements, and having no compunction at slaughtered and terrorising civilians in order to do so.
Syria is run by a vicious regime that has slaughtered its own people, while the UN and the rest of the world has stood by and done nothing, allowing Assad to turn what was originally a pro-democracy protest into a 'civil war', the result being a massive bloodbath, sanctioned by the world's cynical inaction.
There is little to choose between Israel and Syria when it comes to human rights abuses and the slaughter of civilians.
The idea that a terrorist nation with nuclear capability should carry out acts of unsupported military aggression against a bunch of equally murderous nutters like the Syrian regime fills me with horror, especially as the Israeli regime has chosen a party of ultra-right, ultra-religious head-cases as electoral running-mates.
Syria has already committed military attacks on Turkey - not the most democratic of regimes, and Iran, a somewhat volatile bunch, rapidly heading for nuclear capability, is waiting in the wings to become involved.
You are obviously looking for some kind of support for Israel's aggression.
As far as I'm concerned they are all a bunch of fanatical thugs behaving as such in the most unstable part of this planet.
I said as much earlier in this thread in not so many words (05 Feb 13 - 05:06 AM ) - you have chosen to ignore it, which leads me to the conclusion that you are more interested in pursuing personal vendettas and provoking one-to-one arguments than you are in the subject in hand.
This attitude goes through your contributions to virtually all the threads you have become involved in on this forum of late.
Address the subjects in hand and stop behaving like a vicious pratt in order to make these threads your own personal stamping ground.
Leave me alone and do not wreck yet another thread - sort yourself out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

It is nothing to do with any imagined vendetta Jim.
I am just interested in your view of the air strike to prevent the arms shipment.
That is what this thread is about, and I still do not know.
Does anyone else?

You just post more anti-Israel rhetoric with no substance at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM

You have no interest whatever in my opinion, as shown by the fact that you have completely ignored that you have demanded that I give an opinion on something I have already commented on - which you have been once again openly lying about. I do not expect for one moment that you will either acknowledge that fact or apologise for having done so   
If you continue to interfere with my making a contribution, and deliberately attempt to provoke the same type of one-to-one that has ruined thread after thread I shall report you.
Leave me alone, you creepy little stalker.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 05:53 AM

""Don, was Britain invaded thousands of times in 1940.
Of course an airstrike is not an invasion, silly!""

You really are a dope! Britain was in an ongoing formally declared situation of armed hostilities with Germany, hostilities which were currently operating on both sides.

""Syria has invaded Israel several times and fired thousands of artillery rounds into Israel.""

Since you cannot, or will not answer awkward questions, I'll save you the trouble.

The last time open hostilities (Official State of War) existed between Israel and Syria was the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Since then the following have occurred:-

""The Israeli Invasion of Lebanon (1982-1984)--In response to repeated guerrilla attacks by the PLO, which were launched from South Lebanon, Israel invaded with the intent of destroying Arafat's forces. Syria, which maintained a large army in Lebanon, fought Israel and suffered an embarrassing defeat. See The Israeli-Lebanon Conflict (1978-Present).

Israeli Air Strike on Syria (October, 2003)-- Israeli warplanes hit the Syrian village of Ain al-Saheb, near Damascus.

Israeli Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance. See War and Conflict Journal's article on this attack.

As of April, 2010, tensions between Syria and Israel were rising, with Israeli sources indicating that Syria was transferring powerful Scud missiles to the Hezbollah Islamist militia in Lebanon. See an interesting article about the possible ramifications of this development toward a possible new Israel-Syria war at Plotting the Next Mideast War

Nakba Day Border Incidents-on May 15 and June 5, 2011, Palestinian demonstrators demostrated on the Syrian-Israeli border, and attempted to cross the border into Israel. Israeli security forces opened fire, killing several of the protestors. Syria claimed up to 23 were killed and hundreds wounded in the June 5 incident. Israel accused Syria of planning and instigating the incident to draw attention away from Syria's own internal uprising.

Golan Heights Tensions (2012)--With the increasing violence of the Syrian Civil War, The appearance on November 3, 2012, of three Syrian tanks in the demilitarized zone near the UNDOF buffer in violation of the cease-fire agreement raised tensions.

Israeli-Syrian Fighting Along Golan Border (2012)

    November 11, 2012, in the midst of a battle between Syrian government forces and rebels, the Syrian army fired a mortar shell that landed near an Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) outpost at Tel Hazeka in the Golan Heights. The Israeli forces then fired back into Syrian territory. This marks the first time since the conclusion of the 1973 Yom Kippu/Ramadan War that Israel has fire into Syria from their positions in the Golan Heights.

    November 12, 2012-- In response to another artillery round from Syria which landed near an Israeli post, Israeli tanks fired back, making a direct hit on the Syrian artillery units that fired into Israeli--held Golan territory.

    January 30, 2013--Israel launched air strikes into Syrian territory. Among the targets were a convoy believed to be transferring arms from Syria to Hezbollah, and Scientific Studies and Research Center in Jamarya northwest of Damascus, which was believed to be a biological weapons research center. The Israeli planes entered Syrian airspace near Mt. Hermon, flying in low at dawn to avoid radar detection.

Sources and Links:

    http://world.time.com/2013/02/01/the-fallout-from-the-air-raid-on-syria-why-israel-is-concerned/#ixzz2JlofwUYJ""

So Syria is responsible for:-

One demonstration in which only Syrian demonstrators were killed and wounded.

Three Syrian tanks in the de-militarised zone.

One mortar shell and one artillery round landing in the Golan Heights (which, since they took place during the current internal civil war in Syria, may well have been accidental).

April, 2010, Israeli sources indicating that Syria was transferring powerful Scud missiles to the Hezbollah Islamist militia in Lebanon (even if you believe in the honesty of those sources, "indicating" hardly implies certainty).

January 30, 2013 a convoy believed to be transferring arms from Syria to Hezbollah, and Scientific Studies and Research Center in Jamarya northwest of Damascus, which was believed to be a biological weapons research center (again "believed" to be hardly implies certainty. Geedubyah "believed" that Saddam had WMDs.)

Moving on, in the same period Israel is responsible for:-

Invading Lebanon and routing forces from Syria, which were defending that country, with devastating effects on the Lebanese infrastructure.

Air Strike on Syria (October, 2003)-- Israeli warplanes hit the Syrian village of Ain al-Saheb, near Damascus (no reason given for that one).

Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance (presumably somebody leaked that story, maybe Israeli intelligence, d'ye think?).

The above is the historical record of interaction between Israel and Syria since 1973, 40 years ago.

Where are the thousands of artillery shells fired into Israel?

Where is the State of declared war?

Based on what has actually happened, rather than on Keith's flights of Pro Israel fancy, which of the two looks more like the aggressor?

It's a simple question.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:06 AM

Er, I just wondered if you two believe that the airstrike was justified.
That is the subject.
I gave my opinion, here and on the Syrian thread.

I did not realise it was so difficult for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:25 AM

"The state of human rights in Syria has long been the subject of harsh criticism from global organizations.[85] The country was under emergency rule from 1963 until 2011, effectively granting security forces sweeping powers of arrest and detention.[86] The Syrian government has justified this by pointing to the fact that the country has been in a continuous state of war with Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 07:57 AM

"The Syrian government has justified this by pointing to the fact that the country has been in a continuous state of war with Israel."


But Keith, many here think it is wrong for Jews to defend themselves. We are supposed to go quietly to the gas chambers without any fuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:59 AM

What is the justification for the continuous building of settlements and displacement of the original inhabitants?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

"What is the justification for the continuous building of settlements and displacement of the original inhabitants?"

You mean like what the British did in North America?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:23 AM

Are you talking about the removal of the Jewish settlements after 1948, when the West Bank was under Jordanian control?

Check the 1940 vs 1950 figures for Jewish settlements on the West bank, please. There are far more Moslems in Israel NOW than there are Jews left in Arab nations. I guess the removal of the Jews was OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:28 AM

In addition, the Arab Moslems were given over 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory back in about 1923- proportionate to their share of the population, and Jews were NOT allowed to settle or own any part of that ARAB HOMELAND. So how much of the remaining 32% will you allow the Jews to settle in?

I grew up with friends who are of Palestinian descent, from Ramallah. Originally one of the 6 families that founded that town- THEY were driven out in 1948 by the Moslems, as they are Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:51 AM

We are supposed to go quietly to the gas chambers without any fuss.

Do you ALWAYS have to be an ass, Beardie?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:46 AM

Greg, of course it makes sense! and to say it has no author is silly.It didn't think itself up!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM

""But Keith, many here think it is wrong for Jews to defend themselves. We are supposed to go quietly to the gas chambers without any fuss.""

If you take a leaf out of Israel's book, provoke somebody until he punches you on the nose, then take out a gun and shoot him, that cannot be described, by any stretch of the imagination, as self defence.

Given the number of years that Israel has been doing exactly that, it seems strange that its apologists in the US and here still leap blindly to its defence, no matter how low it sinks.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 01:30 PM

Given the number of rockets Hezboallah has sent into Israel in the past, and the UN STATEMENT that all nations should prevent a resupply of those rockets, and the failure of most nations to do so, I think Israel is within it's rights to eliminate those ILLEGAL BY UN RESOLUTION rockets BEFORE they are launched at Israel.

You got a problem with that? Then YOU keep Hezboallah from getting them- which I notice no-one else is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:13 PM

""You seem to be OK with the UN ban, and OK about someone enforcing it, as long as it is not Israel.""
Right?
Presumably because everything Israel does is automatically wrong.
Right?

WRONG,..TWICE! I am OK about any country enforcing a UN resolution, which has been formally tasked by the UN so to do, including Israel, though I do feel the UN would be unwise to task Israel in this instance, given their relationship with their neighbours (think red rags and bulls).

I am against the region's most troublesome and destabilising regime going off and doing its own thing, especially because they are winding up the equally intransigent Iranians.

If Israel continue metaphorically spitting in the eyes of their none too friendly neighbours, a bus load of tourists will pale into insignificance compared to what will eventually happen, not only in the Middle East, but in London and New York as well.

And please don't tell me that you believe Syria is Hezbollah's only source of weaponry.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:29 PM

""You mean like what the British did in North America?""

Dumb choice of analogy Bobad, since the British were out of North America long before the westward expansion and the genocide that followed.

Do some research.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 02:57 PM

"many here think it is wrong for Jews to defend themselves."
Out of curiosity - does anybody here believe that Israel played no part in the Sabra and Shatila massacres, and if they accept that they did, how does the cold-blooded massacre of 3,000 refugees fit into the grand plan of "defending themselves"?
Just curious.
Jim Carroll

"In working on this case, the prosecution believes that it has discovered shocking new evidence of Israel's involvement.
The evidence centres on the Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium– the "Cite Sportif". Only two miles from Beirut airport, the damaged stadium was a natural holding centre for prisoners. It had been an ammunition dump for Yasser Arafat's PLO and repeatedly bombed by Israeli jets during the 1982 siege of Beirut so that its giant, smashed exterior looked like a nightmare denture. The Palestinians had earlier mined its cavernous interior, but its vast, underground storage space and athletics changing-rooms remained intact. It was a familiar landmark to all of us who lived in Beirut. At mid-morning on 18 September 1982–about the time Sana Sersawi says she was brought to the stadium–I saw hundreds of Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners, probably well over 1,000, sitting in its gloomy, dark interior, squatting in the dust, watched over by Israeli soldiers and plain-clothes Shin Beth (Israeli secret service) agents and men who I suspected were Lebanese collaborators. The men sat in silence, obviously in fear. From time to time, I noted, a few were taken away. They were put into Israeli army trucks or jeeps or Phalangist vehicles–for further "interrogation".
Nor did I doubt this. A few hundred metres away, inside the Sabra and Chatila Palestinian refugee camps, up to 600 massacre victims rotted in the sun, the stench of decomposition drifting over the prisoners and their captors alike. It was suffocatingly hot. Loren Jenkins of The Washington Post, Paul Eedle of Reuters and I had only got into the cells because the Israelis assumed–given our Western appearance–that we must have been members of Shin Beth. Many of the prisoners had their heads bowed. But Israel's Phalangist militiamen–still raging at the murder of their leader and president elect Bashir Gemayel–had been withdrawn from the camps, their slaughter over, and at least the Israeli army was now in charge. So what did these men have to fear?
Looking back–and listening to Sana Sersawi today–I shudder now at our innocence. My notes of the time, subsequently written into a book about Israel's 1982 invasion and its war with the PLO, contain some ominous clues. We found a Lebanese employee of Reuters, Abdullah Mattar, among the prisoners and obtained his release, Paul leading him away with his arm around the man's shoulders. "They take us away, one by one, for interrogation," one of the prisoners muttered to me. "They are Haddad [Christian militia] men. Usually they bring the people back after interrogation, but not always. Sometimes the people do not return them." Then an Israeli officer ordered me to leave. Why couldn't the prisoners talk to me, I asked? "They can talk if they want," he replied. "But they have nothing to say."
All the Israelis knew what had happened inside the camps. The smell of the corpses was now overpowering. Outside, a Phalangist jeep with the words "Military Police" painted on it–if so exotic an institution could be associated with this gang of murderers–drove by. A few television crews had turned up. One filmed the Lebanese Christian militiamen outside the Cite Sportif. He also filmed a woman pleading to an Israeli army colonel called "Yahya" for the release of her husband. (The colonel has now been positively identified by The Independent. Today, he is a general in the Israeli army.)
Along the main road opposite the stadium there was a line of Israeli Merkava tanks, their crews sitting on the turrets, smoking, watching the men being led from the stadium in ones or twos, some being set free, others being led away by Shin Beth men or by Lebanese men in drab khaki overalls. All these soldiers knew what had happened inside the camps. One of the members of the tank crews, Lt Avi Grabovsky–he was later to testify to the Israeli Kahan commission–had even witnessed the murder of several civilians the previous day and had been told not to "interfere".
And in the days that followed, strange reports reached us. A girl had been dragged from a car in Damour by Phalangist militiamen and taken away, despite her appeals to a nearby Israeli soldier. Then the cleaning lady of a Lebanese woman who worked for a US television chain complained bitterly that Israelis had arrested her husband. He was never seen again. There were other vague rumours of "disappeared" people."
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:16 PM

"Dumb choice of analogy Bobad, since the British were out of North America long before the westward expansion and the genocide that followed."

Gee DonT, that's odd because where I live the majority of the local population are descended from United Empire Loyalists and any remnants of the original inhabitants have long been relegated to reservations. Perhaps the history you learned was skewed as is usually the case with the conqueror.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:20 PM

Jim, this is about the recent airstrike!!
First you want to go over yet again the endless arguments about settlements, and now you go back 40 years!
does anybody here believe that Israel played no part in the Sabra and Shatila massacres,
Yes. Me.
It was done by Lebanese militias, unless you mean the massacres there during the civil war.

So Don, you do not mind if the UN ban against weapons for Hezbollah is flouted if only Israel can enforce it.
Why?
Surely the important thing for the poor people of that region is that the weapons are stopped.
(They also get arms from Iran)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 04:42 PM

The Holocaust took place 60 odd years ago yet your frinds and fellow holocaust (with a small "h") at Shatila and Sabra} deniers still crouch behind 6,000,000 corpses in defence of Israeli atrocities and war/peace crimes against non-combatents.
I was not, and will not address you - LAST TIME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:02 PM

Yes, Keith, the UN has officially condemned Israel for it's obscene actions toward the Palestinians. What you are saying is patently incorrect. The rest of the world other than the U.S. and a few other minor countries have condemned Israel.

Israeli deniers are shouting at the top of their lungs but their protestations are meaningless. In the meantime, Israel is provoking a potential third world war.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:10 PM

The opening post is an outright lie. WTF did y'all think the thread would go?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: pdq
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:17 PM

A wiser man than most Mudcatters said (paraphrase)...

"If the Arabs stop fighting Israel, we will have peace".

"If the Israelis stop fighting the Arabs, we will be anihilated".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:19 PM

"Both the United Nations and Russia have condemned Israel for the bombing of Syria and Lebanon, hoping that Israel will be forced to appear at the International World Court."

That is the opening post, and it's bullshit!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:23 PM

and to say it has no author is silly.

OK then, kendall: a simple question; who is the author of this supposed quotation. Plase supply documentation.

I'll still go with John Birch, unless you can supply facts to prove otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:59 PM

This is the quote I believe you were referencing pdq:

"If Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah were to lay down arms, there would be no more fighting and no more dying.

If Israel were to lay down arms, there would be no more Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 07:13 PM

Andrew Jackson in his Farewell address said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". March 4, 1837.
Way before John Birch.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:14 PM

Bottom line???

The US needs to push as hard as it can to bringing about a settlement...

This one single issue is the poster-boy issue behind radicalization in North Africa, the Middle east and Indonesia...

If we are going to move forward this is 1st base...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:33 PM

It is nothing to do with any imagined vendetta Jim.
I am just interested in your view of the air strike to prevent the arms shipment.

Israel is shit-scared that Hezbollah are getting as many arms out of Syria as they can before the regime falls. So Israel attacks sovereign territory which it has, at present, no military engagement with.

Well Keith. Let's imagine for a minute that the Palestinians are well-armed, and are involved in bombing convoys in international waters carrying arms to Israel, or, worse, are somehow diverting Yankee aid so that Israel can't use it to make weapons. Legitimate? You'd better answer yes, Keith. Don't want double standards, do we?

If you defend the attacks on arms shipments from Syria, you have to defend all manner of other pre-emptive attacks on sovereign territory, not just the ones that favour the side you're on. Agreed? 9-11?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:31 PM

I feel for the people of both Israel and Palestine who want a solution, and for their families overseas. I hope there is movement towards a safe and equitable solution for all. When military leaders are in control on both sides, then military responses will continue. It's a catch 22.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:42 AM

False comparison Steve.
Hezbollah are vicious, murdering, indiscriminating terrorists.
Whatever you think of Israel, it is a recognised state and UN member, like Syria.

There is no UN ban on delivering weapons to Syria.
No arms shipment to Syria has been stopped by military means, (though Britain to its credit stopped a shipload of helicopter gunships by withdrawing its insurance).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:55 AM

If Israel were to lay down arms, there would be no more Israel."

And that is what the Israel haters hope for, in Mid East and Mudcat.
It would bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel, but as Bruce says, they can not be expected to go meekly into the fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 06:40 AM

""So Don, you do not mind if the UN ban against weapons for Hezbollah is flouted if only Israel can enforce it.
Why?
Surely the important thing for the poor people of that region is that the weapons are stopped.
(They also get arms from Iran)""

Once again you are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Are you a halfwit?

I said I had "NO OBJECTION TO ANY COUNTRY WHICH WAS FORMALLY TASKED BY THE UN, INCLUDING ISRAEL!"   Can you hear me now?

I further commented that I think the UN would be unwise to task Israel with that job, given their relationship with their neighbours.

Are you telling me that this is an unreasonable comment, when they are at loggerheads with every other state in the region?

All of which is immaterial, since they, with their usual arrogance, went ahead and did it, knowing that any active response by their neighbours willonly result in the destruction of those neighbours and more territory for the region's only nuclear power.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 06:45 AM


Are you telling me that this is an unreasonable comment, when they are at loggerheads with every other state in the region?

Yes, because the alternative is that Hezbollah gets the weapons and the region is destabilised bringing more and worse conflict, death, destruction and suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:23 AM

"Some of those who would like top "bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel".
It is lying and deeply offensive slander to suggest that anybody on Mudcat wants or has suggested the destruction of Israel - anybody with a modicum of principle would either produce proof or withdraw such a cowardly and unwarranted suggestion - won't happen here of course.
Some others who fall into that category.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/jew2jew.html
"Are you a halfwit?"
Bit of an over-estimation don't you think Don?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:31 AM

Hezbollah are vicious, murdering, indiscriminating terrorists.

Wrong, Keith. They are an integral part of the government in Lebanon. They are involved in infrastructure development and they run hospitals, schools and agricultural training institutions, and they enjoy the support of a large proportion of the Lebanese population. Your ignorant, dismissive, demonising characterisation of Hezbollah is absolutely typical of the attitude that is forever going to prevent peace from taking over the region.

wiki:

An IRIN news report of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs noted:
"Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings – it also boasts an extensive social development program. Hezbollah currently operates at least four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance program. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members."
According to CNN, "Hezbollah did everything that a government should do, from collecting the garbage to running hospitals and repairing schools." In July 2006, during the war with Israel, when there was no running water in Beirut, Hezbollah was arranging supplies around the city. Lebanese Shiites "see Hezbollah as a political movement and a social service provider as much as it is a militia."

I suppose that, if you were to ask the people in southern Lebanon whose kids have had their legs and feet blown off by some of the hundreds of thousands of deadly cluster bomblets (US made) left there in their fields by Israel, it wouldn't be Hezbollah they'd be calling vicious, murdering, undiscriminating terrorists. Though I fully expect that you'll come up with some way of blaming them for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM

Israel and others countries have accused Iran and Hezbollah of carrying out attacks on Israeli and Jewish targets around the world. Hezbollah has denied involvement in some and not commented on others.

Since 1994 attacks alleged to have been by hezbollah:-

""2008: Azerbaijan officials say they foiled a plot to explode car bombs near the Israeli Embassy in retaliation for the killing in Syria of a top commander in Hezbollah. Two Lebanese men are later convicted in Baku for the bombing attempt.""

Two convicted Lebanese suggests that this is a Hezbollah action.

""Nov. 2011 and Jan. 2012: A Swedish-Lebanese man is accused of planning attacks on Israeli citizens in Cyprus in a case that Israel has said bears similarities to the Bulgaria attack. Israel says the accused was a Hezbollah operative who used the same method as the Burgas suicide bomber, but offered no evidence.""

He was "accused of planning". "Israel said he was a Hezbollah operative, but offered no evidence." Extremely shaky claim with little, if any, credibility.

""February 13, 2012: A bomb attached to an Israeli diplomat's car in India blows up, injuring four people, while a similar bomb is found in Georgia and safely defused. The attacks appear to mirror recent killings of Iranian nuclear scientists that Iran blamed on Israel.""

Where is the Hezbollah connection?

""February 14, 2012: In Thailand, an Iranian man carrying grenades blows off his own legs and wounds four civilians after an earlier blast shook his house in Bangkok. Thai police detain three men they say were planning to attack Israeli diplomats.""

Again, where is the Hezbollah connection?

""July 18, 2012: A bomb explodes in a tourist bus in the Bulgarian resort town of Burgas, killing five Israelis, their Bulgarian driver and the bomber. Bulgarian investigators blame Hezbollah and say the plotters included a Canadian and an Australian. They find no links to Iran.""

Hezbollah has flatly denied involvement which, of course, doesn't mean much, but their involvement is by no means certain.

Five incidents in nineteen years which, when they are examined, lead to what conclusion?

Two have no discernible connection with Hezbollah
One has a shaky connection with no evidential back up.
One, the latest, is flatly denied, but may be a Hezbollah act.
One, the earliest, most likely (but not certainly) a Hezbollah act.

They must certainly be terrifying the Israelis.

You know Keith, I would have thought by now that you would do a little research beyond Israel's Department of Propaganda.

Don T.