BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM

To return to Jim M's post.
in his eyes Israel can do no wrong.

Not true Jim.
All countries sometimes behave badly in self interest.
Israel is no different, but these extreme crimes are denied, and the hard evidence is just not there.
Can no-one produce an unequivocal accusation?

This thread has flung up lots of valid evidence that Israel is rapidly becoming an isolated state in the Middle East
Israel has ALWAYS been isolated.
The surrounding Arab armies tried to over-run and destroy it on day one, and it has been under threat or actual attack ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 12:05 PM

Israel deserves to be castigated for what it has done in terms of the settlements. But the people here who choose to target that have never to my knowledge targeted Muslim activities that rational people would see as inhuman/e. Few have said a thing about human rights violations elsewhere in the Middle East because there are no Jews involved. I see them as Jew haters regardless their protestations of innocence, because it is always Israelis being singled out for their attacks. In the parlance, fuck 'em. The only violations they care to talk about are Israeli violations. Yes, there are many of them. There are also innumerable Muslim violations they never mention. Their silence about that speaks loudly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 08:54 AM

Antisemitism as defined by the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)

    Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for 'why things go wrong'.

The EUMC then goes on to cite specific examples of antisemitism including:

    Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

    Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

    Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

    Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

    Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

    Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Specifically with respect to Israel, taking into account the overall context, the EUMC gave the following examples:

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

    Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

    Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

    Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 07:30 AM

Re Greenwood's piece.
"Their modest homes and huts are overlooked by piles of rubbish on one side and the Kfar Adumim settlement on the other."

Modest homes that replaced their tents, and which have electricity, running water and sanitation.
Piles of rubbish?
Each day's rubbish is buried that day.
"I'm sure the dump is very damaging for our health, "
How could it make them ill?
It could not but if there was evidence it did they could sue.

So we KNOW she wrote false propaganda, the Cif Watch FACTS just explain why she does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 07:07 AM

Don and I have repeatedly pointed out evidence on toxicity of the site - you not answered which I take as a refusal.

Not evidence just hyped up propaganda.
We have established that they are ordinary refuse land-fill sites.
Such sites have the potential to become toxic.
That is all your "evidence" is about.

We have also established that the landfill sites are properly run, so there is no issue of toxicity.

Now I have responded fully, to that same point, one more time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 06:36 AM

""All the "toxic" stuff is propaganda.
Don, Jim made the same quote on the 9th.
It is by Pheobe Greenwood""

YEAH, YEAH!....WHATEVVAH!

We get it Keith. The whole world is antisemitic and only Israel is ever right.

You have made your allegiance abundantly clear, to the point of sanctioning the covering up of two massacres of men, women and children, whose crime was to be refugees from the actions of your heroes.

You say Phoebe Greenwood writes from bias. Even if true (which I doubt), you more than balance her.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 06:30 AM

Or in more detail.
Jim Carroll
"My dictionary gives "toxic" as harmful, destructive or deadly poisonous, and that is the is the situation on this site.
The materials on the site become toxic if they get into the water supply, that is a fact recognised by the Israeli authorities and stated as such - you have been given that statement.
They become toxic when coming into contact with some gasses, include those with domestic uses - also a documented fact and given to you.
Those toxins remain in the ground years, possibly decades after the site has been used, especially dangerous to any water supply - also commented on by those involved in the health of the country.
The perimeter fence is insecure, making possible - likely that children and enter the site and come into contact with rotting material which could make them ill and even kill them - this is true of any rubbish dump of this size and is recognised to be the case.
In addition to this, the gasses given off could cause fire and explosion - stated by the Health authorities.
Tell us which of these is not true.
Whether the site is being used to dump specifically recognised toxic material it totally irrelevant; I have never claimed that to be the case.
The site is toxic by its very existence – it contains material that can kill and it has been stated as being such - that's in several of your unread links.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 06:22 AM

"So not denying the factual statements about Greenwood."
Not even bothered to follow through this non-event you are trying to hype up - I have made no claims of the veracity of her articles - I put it up because it dealt with the subject we are discussing.
You have before you a load of information not only on toxic sites, but also of toxic sprays being used on Bedouin crops
You are lying (not even you are that stupid) when you say you are unaware...... - one more try though.
Don and I have repeatedly pointed out evidence on toxicity of the site - you not answered which I take as a refusal.
"I have given you the dictionary definition of "toxic"; I have given you the Israeli health authority's assessment of the site and I have itemized the calculated effect on the water supply, coming into contact with other gasses, including domestic and I have described the possible effects on children entering a poorly fenced rubbish dump "
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 04:37 AM

So not denying the factual statements about Greenwood.
It explains the false decription of an ordinary landfill site.
Just more propaganda.
I am not aware of "MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS."
Put them up and I promise to answer, but can't promise you will like it.

The nurse saw no direct involvement by IDF, and I acknowledge their shameful, indirect responsibility.

swamped by a tsunami of articles on Israel, toxic materials and the Bedouin,
I have to agree.
There are so many sites devoted to pumping out anti-israel propaganda.
That is all it is Jim.
Try not to be so gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM

Your selecting an Israeli propaganda page, a sort of Israeli Lord Haw-Haw (or Tokyo Rose, for our American cousins), has, for me at least, brought this topic to a satisfactory conclusion, probably for the time being as you clearly intend to break your own nauseatingly racist 'Muslim Prejudice' record by dragging this thread out for as long as you can by not answering questions put to you.
What parts of the Phoebe Greenwood article do I dispute? - I'll do you a deal I WILL BE HAPPY TO DEBATE HER AND THE GUARDIAN'S COVERAGE OF ISRAELI ATROCITIES, AND ANY SUGGESTION THAT EITHER SHE OR ONE OF BRITAIN'S FINEST NEWSPAPER'S IS IN ANY WAY "ANTISEMITIC" IF YOU WILL DIRECTLY ANSWER THE MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS AND UNACKNOWLEDGED EVIDENCE PUT BEFORE YOU REGARDING ISRAELI WAR CRIMES Can't say fairer than that.
Anyway, Phoebe Greenwood's coverage has been swamped by a tsunami of articles on Israel, toxic materials and the Bedouin, to which you have yet to respond or even acknowledge.   
I am grateful that your choosing it has opened up a whole new can of worms; that of the Israeli practice of using toxins in solving the "Bedouin problem", not only in the form of forcing them next to toxic sites, but also as aerial crop-destroying chemical sprays used on Bedouin food supplies - you have the links - you won't follow them through, or probably not even read them, but I have no doubt others will.
These links where hastily gathered; (didn't want to miss University Challenge) there appears to be page after page of such links.
And we hadn't even got round to discussing SKUNK, the chemical spray designed, among other things, to make homes uninhabitable.
""Skunk" is a malodorant, non-lethal weapon used for crowd control by the Israeli Defense Forces. Deriving its name from the animal of the same name, "Skunk" is dispersed as a form of mist, fired from a water cannon, which leaves a terrible odor of rot or sewage on whatever it touches. It does not wash off easily and is said to linger on clothes for up to five years.[1] First attempts at developing a scent-based form of crowd control began in Israel in 2004; Skunk was first used for crowd control in September 2008."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_(weapon)
There was a recent article in the Irish Times (no doubt anther Antisemitic rag!!!) giving a description of its use.
Stone-throwers were sighted (aka invented), the truck turned up and sprayed the house (in this case a farmhouse), making it uninhabitable for possibly up to five years - a crude but effective land clearance technique - not sure where the UN stands on this form of chemical warfare against non-combatants.
This particular incident was filmed and photographed; no stone throwers were in evidence.
Anyway as you seem to have entered your 'Dalek' mode by refusing to qualify your arguments, answer questions directed to you, refute or even acknowledge direct proof put before you in form of (unread) links and cut-'n-pasted commentary; as far as I'm concerned there is little more to add at the present time.
BTW Nurse Ellen Siegal said it as she saw it - the Israeli soldiers witnessed the massacre over three days without attempting to stop it, and buried the bodies using Israeli bulldozers - it's in her letter - further participation in the massacre by Israeli troops is adequately covered elsewhere.
I certainly have no objection to her giving any evidence to any tribunal.
I'll leave you to it - off to Galway to hear about the songs arising from '1798' - have a good day y'all, d'ye hear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:49 PM

Nurse Ellen Siegel is not "misinformed."
She was there, and her story was not created long after the events.
It was Jim Carroll who placed her testimony on the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:45 PM

Nurse Ellen Siegel is misinformed. Giving testimony to an Israeli enquiry is asking the foxes to guard the henhouse. Complete B.S.

Israel is an occupier. That's their side of the story. Palestinians are suffering at the hands of Israeli government. That's their side of the story.

There are no two sides to this issue unless you are willing to defend occupation and abuse by one country to another. So would you look at the Nazi's side of the story? Makes no sense. How can atrocities by justified by a "side of the story"?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:34 PM

Jim M
One cannot convince Keith that there are two sides to this storey,
I acknowledge both sides of the story Jim.
I am one of the very few people here who put Israel's side of the story.
That makes the one sided bigots so angry.

The dumps we are discussing are ordinary landfill sites just like those near me or the one my friends live on top of.
Israel manages them just as well as UK or Ireland or anywhere else.
" The dumps are huge pits lined with woven plastic sheeting, and contain pipelines for syphoning off gases and leachate − or "garbage juice," as it is popularly called. Every day the trash unloaded at local dumps is covered; the landfill is closed down after the waste reaches a certain height. The authority in charge of each site is obligated thereafter to rehabilitate the landscape and to continue draining off leachate and gas."

The source of the piece about Pheobe Greenwood was given in the text.
Which factual statement do you challenge?

Nurse Ellen Siegel says nothing against Israel.
She gave her testimony to the (Israeli)enquiry.
She acknowledges in that letter that the appalling living conditions of the Palestinian refugees can not be blamed on Israel, but on their Arab brethren.
The Palestinian Israelis are the lucky ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:13 PM

"Maybe folks could take a lesson from that."

And what I mean by that refers to partisans of either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:09 PM

What I like about Devorah Brous is her sense of balance. She freely admits that civil rights abuses happen throughout countries of the Middle East but also that they happen in Israel, too. Maybe folks could take a lesson from that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:02 PM

Israel is the USA's proxy foothold in the Middle East and so is allowed to do what they like, be it annexing land, killing anyone who gets in its way and all of their actions being justified by people like Keith A of Hertford who are blinded by faith which Thomas Moore said should be subservient to reason (incorrectly in my opinion).
I fear for the future as either Israel will nuke or be nuked and whatever who does it first, both will be losers as will the rest of us. One cannot convince Keith that there are two sides to this storey, in his eyes Israel can do no wrong. This thread has flung up lots of valid evidence that Israel is rapidly becoming an isolated state in the Middle East and as such, very dangerouse to world peace. I sadly await the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 03:07 PM

This has now become a dialogue with a Dalek
You have not answered one single question or given one clarification.
ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

Phoebe Greenwood;
It is difficult not to notice that you didn't provide a link to this one, so I took a peep.
The item is no more than a snide attack on a legitimate journalist, attempting to put her and the Guardian over as antisemitic, which is not particularly surprising as it comes from a a site dedicated to
CIFWATCH
"MONITORING AND COMBATING ANTISEMITISM, AND THE ASSAULT ON ISRAEL'S LEGITIMACY, AT THE GUARDIAN AND ITS BLOG, 'COMMENT IS FREE."'
An Israeli propaganda site, no less.

These links all refer to Bedouins moved to toxic waste-containing sites.
It includes reports of Bedouin crops being deliberately sprayed by Toxins
Jim Carroll

www.economist.com/node/21536645
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/iopt0308/3.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/01/8024
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/2010/08/uprooting-weeds-by-devorah-brous-march.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_al-Na'am
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/313-washington-report-archives-2006-2010/september-october-2007/9446-jewish-american-activist-champions-cause-of-israels-disenfranchised-bedouin.html
http://lordsoftheblog.net/2012/07/10/the-bedouin-of-israel-the-west-bank-and-east-jerusalem/
https://theshalomcenter.org/content/israeli-jewish-renewal-report-bedouin-inside-israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 02:43 PM

Thought you might like to read this very moving letter (last year- so I'm afraid you might think it out-of date, and you might think the nurse Antisemitic because she doesn't support the Israeli version of events!!!)

It is not out of date, but nothing she writes contradicts the Israeli version.

Robert Fisk. "Nor, let it be said – in 30 years – has a single Arab leader bothered to visit the last resting place of at least 600 of the 1,700 victims. Arab potentates bleed in their hearts for the Palestinians but an airfare to Beirut might be a bit much these days – and which of them would want to offend the Israelis or the Americans?

It is an irony – but an important one, nonetheless – that the only nation to hold a serious official enquiry into the massacre, albeit flawed, was Israel. "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 01:35 PM

Ordinary garbage sites are everwhere.
Properly managed there are no environmental issues.
Israel's sites ARE properly managed as described in the Haaretez piece.
All the "toxic" stuff is propaganda.
Don, Jim made the same quote on the 9th.
It is by Pheobe Greenwood



Greenwood is a clear example of what we at CiF Watch have termed in the past a 'journavist': someone promoting a political agenda by means of what the public assumes to be objective reporting.

Her increasingly frequent articles on the pages of the Guardian's Middle East section (cost-cutting in progress?) may initially appear to be little different from the often ideologically-motivated reports filed by Harriet Sherwood until one remembers that Greenwood's lightning apprenticeship for her new trade as 'Middle East Specialist' was learned not at a foreign editor's news desk, but at the knees of several of the more offensive anti-Israel charities at work in the region. That she claims to still work as a consultant with some of them indicates a continuing conflict of interests.

The fact that the Guardian is publishing supposedly serious reporting on the Middle East from a recently re-vamped former writer of celebrity gossip (with apparently no formal training in Middle East history, and whose 'expertise' on the subject was gained in a total of 22 months spent working on two far apart continents for a fairly notoriously biased charity) is hardly likely to cause regular CiF Watch readers to set aside their Christmas pudding or Hannuka donut in shock.

The 'miracle' of Phoebe Greenwood's meteoric transformation into a regular Guardian contributor with a self-described 'specialty' in the Middle East clearly has more to do with the fact that her 'progressive' one-sided approach dovetails very conveniently with the Guardian World View of the region rather than any boring, earthly factor such as knowledge, expertise or understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 09:13 AM

Keith, maybe you will survive your toxic landfill but at what cost to you or the residents around you? This is thread creep and deserves its own thread. To rationalize any environmental toxic hazard as if it didn't matter reflects on the views of that rationale in application to other world events. The blinders don't stop at Israel, apparently.

It only shows that you can't disconnect one issue from others you have to connect the dots. The acceptance of the denial of the eco-problems we face is proportional to
the denial of the abuses of the State of Israel.

Thanks for at least making that clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

A lucid support of Palestinian rights

This is an intelligent and well-thought-out response to the knee jerk Zionists who
equate Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions of the State of Israel to "Holocaust",
anti-semitism and other misleading so-called "anti Jewish" responses. These labels constitute a name-calling ad hominem attack and don't reflect the views of Jews worldwide. There are many Jews who call into question the Israeli occupation.

BDS movement is non-violent, not Hamas, and an appeal for justice for everyone,
Jew or non-Jew. The blinders that some have about Israeli occupation is a political
ploy used to discredit an honest discussion about the issue. This issue is not going
away because it is about civil rights for an oppressed minority that is analogous to the plight of the Native American, the African-American, and the indentured servitude of the Irish in the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 06:36 AM

Thought you might like to read this very moving letter (last year- so I'm afraid you might think it out-of date, and you might think the nurse Antisemitic because she doesn't support the Israeli version of events!!!)
Jim Carroll
A letter to the IDF soldiers at Sabra and Shatila
On the 30th anniversary of the Sabra and Shatila massacre, a Jewish American nurse who provided humanitarian aid in a Beirut hospital recalls her first encounter with IDF soldiers. Today, she asks them to take a few moments during the Jewish New Year to remember.

To the IDF soldiers who were at Sabra and Shatila,

September 2012 will mark the 30th anniversary of the massacre at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut. In 1982, the first day of Rosh Hashanah coincided with the final hours of that horrific event. This year, the first day of the Jewish New Year, September 16, corresponds with the opening hours of the killings.
I met you in 1982. I was working as a nurse at a hospital in Sabra. I arrived after Israel's invasion of Lebanon, soon after Israel refused to allow food, water, and vital medications into the besieged city. I was there as a humanitarian. Morally, I could not stand by and be silent while the destruction of a city and the killing and maiming of its people occurred.
Following the assassination of the newly-elected president of Lebanon in mid-September all hell broke loose. I listened as Israeli planes broke the sound barrier over the camps, heard continuous heavy artillery fire, and stayed away from shattering windows. For almost 48 hours, from September 16th to the 18th, I attempted to save the lives of those who were brought to the hospital. Many had severe wounds from being shot at close range. I cared for hundreds of terrified refugees seeking the safety of the hospital. I tried to comprehend the throat-slitting gesture the women made. I watched from a top floor of the hospital as flares were shot in the air. The flares illuminated areas of the camp; the sound of automatic weapons fire followed each illumination.
The first day of year 5743 was marked by the arrival of the Phalangists – you who were there remember that extremist militia – at the front of the hospital. They ordered the international health workers to assemble. They marched us down the main street of the camps: past dead bodies, past a bulldozer marked with a Hebrew letter which was shifting soil to cover over a large area where homes once stood. Many of the militia were using walkie-talkies. At one point, the soldiers lined us up against a bullet- ridden wall and pointed their rifles at us. After several minutes, they put their rifles down and marched us out of the camp.
They led us up a street to an abandoned UN building. In the courtyard we saw parts of IDF uniforms, discarded army rations and recent editions of the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth. After interrogating us, they took us across the street to the Israeli Defense Forces forward command post. It was located in a five story building that overlooked the surrounded camps; we saw soldiers looking down on the camps with binoculars. It was there that you and I first met.
A number of you had on kippot (skullcaps) and tallitot (prayer shawls) and were reading from prayer books. It was mid-morning; perhaps you were reciting the Amidah (the Prayer) which consists of many prayers including one for peace, goodness, blessings, kindness and compassion. One of you offered a nurse a piece of carefully wrapped honey cake – maybe your mother had given it to you to take along on your army duty. Traditionally, we begin the New Year by eating something sweet – usually honey cake – to symbolize our hopes for a sweet year. I have never forgotten this gesture. But as I think back, I am pained by the act of celebrating the Jewish New Year as thousands of innocents were buried in mass graves below. One of you said "Today is my Christmas." I knew what you meant. For us, this day begins ten days of introspection and repentance when the Book of Life is opened and our fate for the next year is sealed.

In September, I will return to Beirut, as I have every year – to remember, commemorate, visit the mass grave, reunite with survivors, stand next to those who lost loved ones and bear witness.
I wonder what has happened to you over the past three decades. I know that Emil Grunzweig, a Peace Now activist, was murdered in February of 1983, during a demonstration – one of the largest in Israel's history – demanding that Prime Minister Begin adopt the recommendations of the Kahan Commission that investigated the massacre. Lt. Avi Grabovsky testified before the Commission. Ari Folman made a movie: Waltz with Bashir.
What about the rest of you? Many of you have children, maybe grandchildren. Do you live in comfortable housing; do you feel a sense of safety and security in your homes and neighborhoods? Are you well fed? Did you obtain a proper education, earn a decent living, and have access to health care, travel? Do you enjoy life? What are you passing on to your next generation?
Let me tell you about what life is like for the Palestinians I know still living in Sabra and Shatila. More than 9,000 refugees live within one square kilometer. Most of the dwellings are overcrowded, damp, and poorly ventilated; some have tin roofs. Open sewage systems run through the camps. The population is vulnerable to hostilities between various political factions. Refugees are denied the right to work in most jobs. Impoverished, they depend on an already overworked and underfunded UNRWA for basic health services and education. Inadequate nutrition, chronic illnesses and poor health are common. Children are deprived of a good education. Many refugees have never been out of their camp! Third and fourth generations are being born, growing up, and dying in these camps. It is bleak and appalling. The future holds little hope for any improvement in their lives.
I know that you are not to blame for the way the Palestinian refugees live today. I just ask that you take a few moments during one of our holiest days to remember. I am thinking of both you and of the Palestinian refugees during this time and I wish for a better future for all of us.

To the soldier with the honey cake, to the one who told me it was his Christmas, and to the others, L'Shana Tovah 5773 – To a good year.
Ellen Siegel

Ellen Siegel is a Jewish American. She first visited Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon in 1972. Since that time she has been an active member and supporter of the Jewish and Israeli peace movements, and has supported the Palestinian solidarity cause. She volunteered her nursing services in 1982 during Israeli's war on Lebanon. She worked in Gaza Hospital, Sabra refugee camp in Beirut and was present during the massacre. She testified before the Kahan Commission of Inquiry. She continues to work part-time as a nurse in WDC, and serves on the Medical Committee of the American Near East Refugee Aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM

"YOU have applied the term "toxic"
No I haven't - the term toxic has been applied to the site in several (obviously once again unread by you, despite your having claimed to have "read them all") links.
I have given you the dictionary definition of "toxic"; I have given you the Israeli health authority's assessment of the site and I have itemized the calculated effect on the water supply, coming into contact with other gasses, including domestic and I have described the possible effects on children entering a poorly fenced rubbish dump
,font color=red>PLEASE STOP AVOIDING ALL THESE POINTS - IF WHAT I HAVE DESCRIBED IS WRONG, PLEASE SHOW WHY OR WITHDRAW YOUR NONSENSICALLY DISHONEST CLAIMS - ONE OR T'OTHER.
And please explain why the forcible mass movement of communities to where their health will be put at risk and where they will be unable to follow their way of life or make a living is not STATE FASCISM>
And please respond to all the other points regarding your mind-numbing claim that the Israeli denial is the only evidence available and is in any way to be regarded as evidence and that it is the only account of the massacre to be taken seriously.
WHERE ELSE ON THIS PLANET IS THE STATEMENT OF SOMEBODY ACCUSED OF A SERIOUS CRIME TO BE REGARDED AS THE ONLY EVIDENCE TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY - SINCE WHEN DO ACCUSED CRIMINALS GET TO TRY THEMSELVES AND FIND THEMSELVES NOT GUILTY?   
PLEASE STOP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF IN PUBLIC - IT'S EMBARRASSING, FOR US, IF NOT FOR YOU.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:03 AM

""Around 250 Bedouins from the Jahalin group already live on the fringes of the As Sawahira dump, moved here by the Israeli authorities 15 years ago from land now occupied by the Ma'ale Adumim settlement. Their modest homes and huts are overlooked by piles of rubbish on one side and the Kfar Adumim settlement on the other.
"I'm sure the dump is very damaging for our health, but the Israelis moved us here – we had no choice," says Abu Jahalin, 70. He has heard of the plans to move thousands more Bedouins to the dump. He points to the proposed site with his walking stick, explaining that it will run all the way from the top of the hill, where his sheep graze, to the piles of rubbish.""

That doesn't equate, Keith, with the cozy sanitised account you have just posted with your usual sycophantic trust in whatever comes from the Israeli side of the argument.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:48 AM

""It may be true, but the Israeli case is every bit as credible.
I have an open mind, but the evidence is equivocal.""

There are sufficient witnesses on one side of the argument to make it unlikely that they would be able to get away with lying, simply because, to be credible their separate stories have to tally very strongly. Given that most of them are individual soldiers, who would have had to wait until after leaving the army to come forward and give evidence, the time factor is arguably irrelevant (just another Keith red herring).

Stack up against that, a flat denial by the Israeli government, without any eye witness evidence from the rank and file who were there.

Doesn't sound good, does it? A jury would almost certainly bring in a guilty verdict.

A refusal to dignify an accusation with a defence, and/or treating said accusation with contempt (which was Israel's response), usually is a strong indicator of guilt.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM

""As Don says, after a time it is even safe to live on top of one, as my wealthy friends do in Broxbourne.""

Another half truth.

I also pointed out that our landfills are all in disused quarries or surface mine workings, in other words below ground level, allowing for a substantial depth of hardcore rubble and a heavy layer of soil.

How would you propose that anyone effectively cover a waste dump on the surface of an open hillside?

More likely it will be left to rot down and become truly toxic along with the disregarded humans forced to live right beside it.

The Bedouins are being used like a human buffer between the dump and the important citizens.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:24 AM

YOU have applied the term "toxic" but it is just an ordinary landfill site like the ones most of Ireland's garbage goes into.
Don't believe all the anti-Israel lies and propaganda.
Did you miss this?
"Israel today buries about 80 percent of its waste in proper landfills, while the rest is transferred to recycling facilities. ‏(There are some European countries that recycle 90 percent of all trash, but in most cases the rate of recycling there ranges from 50 to 60 percent.‏) The dumps are huge pits lined with woven plastic sheeting, and contain pipelines for syphoning off gases and leachate − or "garbage juice," as it is popularly called. Every day the trash unloaded at local dumps is covered; the landfill is closed down after the waste reaches a certain height. The authority in charge of each site is obligated thereafter to rehabilitate the landscape and to continue draining off leachate and gas."
Haaretz 2012

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:20 AM

pdq
Are you claiming that Palestinians have no right to be in Palestine - or anywhere for that matter?
Isn't that what you people are claiming the Arabs are saying about the Israelis?
What's your solution - concentration camps and gas ovens maybe, or simply dispersment all over the globe just like the ancient Egyptians did with the Jews?
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:12 AM

"Who else was there?"
Isn't that exactly the point - the only evidence you have produced is that of Israel, who tried itself and found itself "not guilty" and that is all you have put forward as "evidence".
"No-one else showed any interest."
A BLATENT LIE.
THERE IS A MASS OF EVIDENCE FROM INVESTIGATIONS OF THE MASSACRE, YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN THEM AND HAVE REFUSED TO RESPOND, YOU HAVE EVEN LIED ABOUT HAVING READ THEM - WANT ME TO SHOW YOU THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT?
The massacre was investigated by groups like 'Amnesty' the UN, and and other human rights organisations from all over the world, all of which you have ignored or rejected WITHOUT PROOF in favour of Israel's denial - HOW LOGICAL IS THAT?
I haven't even bothered to produce eye-witness evidence because you have made it clear that you would have rejected Muslim eye witnesses as having been "biased" - yet you admit that the only "evidence" you have is that of the facilitators of the massacre.
YOU HAVE EVEN REJECTED THE EVIDENCE OF ISRAELI SOLDIERS WHO WERE THERE AND WERE TRAUMATISED BY THE EVENTS - WHICH, AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, IS BENEATH CONTEMPT DO YOU BELIEVE THEM TO BE ANTISEMITES TOO? WERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE FOR YOUR DISGUSTING CLAIMS
"Those responsible for such sites are accountable under the law to make them safe."
Utter ******* nonsense, any state whose law allows the government to forcibly uproot 2,300 Bedouin families to next to a rubbish dump (toxic or not) where they will not be able to make a living or follow their traditional life-styles in order to make way for Jewish settlers is hardly likely to adhere to any law, especially when the victims of this atrocity are Muslims
In the late 1990s, they moved families from 20 communities to the same area placing homes as close as 150 metres to the garbage dump. (this information from the "anti-Semite" Amnesty organisation).
ANY STATE WHO BEHAVES LIKE THIS CAN SAFELY BE DESCRIBED AS FASCIST – PUTTING THE WISHES OF THE GOVERNMENT ABOVE THE WELL-BEING OF THE PEOPLE IS CLASSIC FASCISM – AND TO SUPPORT SUCH BEHAVIOUR IS TO SUPPORT FASCISM
This is what you are supporting.
"Why single out Israel?"
Because this is what Israel is proposing to do - why else?
Bringing another nation's behaviour is total (very appropriately here) garbage, as is comparing this with what happens with your WEALTHY FRIENDS IN BROXBOURNE - you have been given the Israeli health department's own statement on the state of this site. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A THIRD WORLD PART OF THE PLANET, NOT MIDDLE-CLASS BRITAIN, , WE ARE ALSO TALKING ABOUT AN IMPOVERISHED PEOPLE, NOT (BY YOUR OWN DESCRIPTION) WEALTHY BRITONS. UTTER AND COMPLETE IDIOCY.
YOU HAVE YET TO EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THE CORRECT DEFINITION OF "TOXIC" WHICH I HAVE APPLIED TO THE STATE OF THIS SITE.
The continuing repetition of the same arguments without offering a word of explanation or proof is a sure sign of creeping dementia.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 03:50 AM

Relax Jim.
All your worries about landfill sites were based on more anti_Israel propaganda.
Try not to be so gullible

Haaretz, 2012

"Israel today buries about 80 percent of its waste in proper landfills, while the rest is transferred to recycling facilities. ‏(There are some European countries that recycle 90 percent of all trash, but in most cases the rate of recycling there ranges from 50 to 60 percent.‏) The dumps are huge pits lined with woven plastic sheeting, and contain pipelines for syphoning off gases and leachate − or "garbage juice," as it is popularly called. Every day the trash unloaded at local dumps is covered; the landfill is closed down after the waste reaches a certain height. The authority in charge of each site is obligated thereafter to rehabilitate the landscape and to continue draining off leachate and gas."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 02:35 AM

Jordan.
This increasing in the amounts of MSW is not yet accompanied with the proper management practice in Landfilling resources. It poses negative effects on the human health and environment.
Throughout the country there are 24 landfills handling Municipal solid waste; one of the landfills is designed for sanitary landfilling but the others don't have even the simplest needed requirements at present.

Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 02:00 AM

Stringsinger,
A landfill site (also known as tip, dump, rubbish dump or dumping ground and historically as a midden) is a site for the disposal of waste materials by burial and is the oldest form of waste treatment. Historically, landfills have been the most common methods of organized waste disposal and remain so in many places around the world.

Yet we survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: pdq
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:58 PM

"In a 1946 appearance before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, also acting as an investigative body, the Arab-American historian Philip Hitti stated:

"There is no such thing as Palestine in [Arab] history, absolutely not." According to investigative journalist Joan Peters, who spent seven years researching the origins of the Arab-Jewish conflict over Palestine (From Time Immemorial, 2001), the one identity that was never considered by local inhabitants prior to the 1967 war was "Arab Palestinian.""

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:48 PM

The idea that landfills in general are safe because of some bureaucracy is risible at
best. They are not safe, they are toxic and anyone who believes otherwise is naive.

Again, Zionism is the culprit, not Judaism. Zionism is predicated on biblical injunctions and therefore can't be accepted as an expansionist country by Muslims.

Zionism when it was first conceived by Ben Gurion took into account the differences
between the Palestinian population and Israel. He was loathe to evict the Palestinians
from their homeland. Times have changed radically and Zionism became expansionist.

Israel has no intention of making life better for Palestinians and the world knows it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 05:50 PM

I suspect your take on this would change radically, if that tip were open and up against your own property boundary.
There are landfill sites near me, and people live close by them.
Jim, we ARE talking about an ordinary landfill site.
Those responsible for such sites are accountable under the law to make them safe.
As Don says, after a time it is even safe to live on top of one, as my wealthy friends do in Broxbourne.

THE EVENTS ARE DISPUTED BY ISRAEL ALONE - PUT A LINK UP IF THIS IS NOT THE CASE
Who else was there?
The case was immediately taken up in Israel.
IDF was required to explain what happened.
No-one else showed any interest.
I am suspicious of all those "witnesses" including Israeli soldiers who kept quiet at the time and then remembered things long after.

It may be true, but the Israeli case is every bit as credible.
I have an open mind, but the evidence is equivocal.
If Israel is as evil as you claim, why are there no unequivocal crimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:52 PM

BTW
You have just confirmed that the only 'evidence' to your claims are the denials of the accused
"There are but they obviously are Israeli accounts and documents which you dismiss.'
This is not "evidence" but a denial by the long-found-guilty culprit.
Perhaps you might like to point out a court of law which would accept such uncorroborated evidence as "proof" - I can't think of one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:46 PM

" I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.
Yes garbage can become toxic."
Not a reply to:
My dictionary gives "toxic" as harmful, destructive or deadly poisonous, and that is the is the situation on this site.
The materials on the site become toxic if they get into the water supply, that is a fact recognised by the Israeli authorities and stated as such - you have been given that statement.
They become toxic when coming into contact with some gasses, include those with domestic uses - also a documented fact and given to you.
Those toxins remain in the ground years, possibly decades after the site has been used, especially dangerous to any water supply - also commented on by those involved in the health of the country.
The perimeter fence is insecure, making possible - likely that children and enter the site and come into contact with rotting material which could make them ill and even kill them - this is true of any rubbish dump of this size and is recognised to be the case.
In addition to this, the gasses given off could cause fire and explosion - stated by the Health authorities.
Tell us which of these is not true.
Whether the site is being used to dump specifically recognised toxic material it totally irrelevant; I have never claimed that to be the case.
The site is toxic by its very existence – it contains material that can kill and it has been stated as being such - that's in several of your unread links.
"There were exchanges of fire."
Links please (not from the Israelis - they have been accused, even by the US journals, of lying.
"I am just not going to do it again."
Of course yoe are not - you are lying and the only "evidence" you have put forward are denials of guilt by of mass murderers -as is the case here.   
"Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them."
The Israelis took part in those massacres, you have had the evidence for this fact AND YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ONE SINGLE SCRAP OF YOUR OWN TO SHOW OTHERWISE - PUT A LINK UP IF YOU HAVE
"The events are disputed."
THE EVENTS ARE DISPUTED BY ISRAEL ALONE - PUT A LINK UP IF THIS IS NOT THE CASE
Throughout this thread and those similar, your sole defence has been only that which Israel has claimed.
THERE WERE NO TERRORIST PRESENT AT THIS MASSACRE, THERE WAS NO ARMED RESISTANCE, THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE ACCOUNT OF THERE BEING TERRORISTS PRESENT AND THERE WERE NO INJURIES AND DEATHS OTHER THAN THOSE OF UNARMED, UNRESISTANT REFUGEES - IT WAS A MASSACRE OF UNARMED NON-COMBATANTS, FACILITATED AND PARTICIPATED IN BY ISRAELI TROOPS IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE (NOT CLAIMS BY THE GUILTY, PLEASE PROVIDE IT - IF YOU DO NOT HAVE SUCH EVIDENCE THEN YOU HAVE NO CASE

Bobad
"Why Islam Will Never Accept the State of Israel"
Rhetoric is one thing - I suggest that you view the reality.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html
Would you like to live next door to a heavily armed mass-murderer determined to drive you and your family out of your home and prepared to resort to the slaughter of you all in order to do so?
You declined to answer my last point to you - I will be interested to see if you answer this one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:34 PM

""Yes. Meanwhile people can live nearby.""

I suspect your take on this would change radically, if that tip were open and up against your own property boundary.

But HEY! What the hell, they're only a bunch of Arabs, EH?

""Yes. It is in its last few weeks of operation.""

Followed by years of decomposition, surface settlement and gas emission.

And has it struck your sharp, incisive mind that a dump on a hillside is going to take a hell of a lot of covering.

That's why all of ours are in deep holes in the ground.

Again, you're not about to stress over the health of a bunch of Arabs, as long as the (Israelis who replace them have their luxuries.

""All citizens have the same rights.
The Bedouin have already used the courts to change the settlement proposals.""

Yes, they have. Ten year court battles to get a water supply, or minimal success, one tap three miles from where it's needed.

You Keith are a master of the half truth and the outright lie.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM

""You lot just accept what one side says without question""

No, we accept the evidence produced by one side as more credible than the flat denial without evidence produced by the other.

Even you ought to ask why, if they have any, they don't produce it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:18 PM

""However, if anything, the conflict is more of a "Muslim-Jewish" one than an "Arab-Israeli" one.""

If you change that premise to Muslim-Zionist, it might be more descriptive of what is, rather than what you would have us believe.

""why would Persian Iran -- conquered by the Arabs -- have such a deep hatred for Jews and Israel, whereas a non-Muslim country such as India does not feel such enmity? The answer is painfully clear: The contempt in which the Qur'an and other Islamic writings hold Jews does not exist in the scriptures of the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and other Eastern religions.""

The answer to that is very simple. Israel's Zionist government is not a direct threat to the existence of India, since it is not conducting the same planned campaign to gradually annexe India, that it is conducting in Palestine and the Middle East.

Zion's ingrained certainty of entitlement to the so-called promised land, occupied for so many centuries by Palestinians, and their high handed and disdainful treatment of the inhabitants, not only of that, but of all the other countries in the region, was always going to cause hatred.

Israel is the biggest single mistake that the West ever made. A Palestine with Jewish people living in mutual respect as they did 2000 years before might well have eventually settled into peace. Once the Zionists were given a part of Palestine, they were bound to want more, in fact they want it aall, and they don't much care who they kill to get it.

That whole garbled article is a straightforward apologia for Israeli expansionism, and it is a misrepresentation of what the Muslims of the region object to.

I'd like to know more about the credentials (if any) of the author.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM

i think this was my first post on the 82 massacre back in 2010.
"The massacres were truly deplorable. Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them. They were disgraced by it."

That has been my position ever since.

The events are disputed.
You lot just accept what one side says without question.
I have no way of knowing which side is lying most, and which is most truthful because i am not a prejudiced bigot.
The evidence is equivocal.
If Israel is so evil, where are the unequivocal crimes?

THERE ARE NO DOCUMENTED ACCOUNTS OF ARMED RESISTANCE TO THE MASSACRE
THE IS NO RECORD OF A PLO PRESENCE

There are but they obviously are Israeli accounts and documents which you dismiss.

NOR HAVE YOU REPLIED TO MY DESCRIPTION OF TOXICITY
Yes I have.
I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.
Yes garbage can become toxic.


You must be aware that landfill sites are only used for housing years after they are covered in, allowed to settle, and regularly checked for toxic gas emissions.
Yes. Meanwhile people can live nearby.
The site under discussion is open, in regular use for diposal of Jerusalem's rubbish, and spread all over the hillside right down to the current Bedouin settlement.
Yes. It is in its last few weeks of operation.

The courts are there to make sure those responsible do not allow it.""

Another hollow laugh! We've already pointed out what Bedouins get from Israeli courts.
The judiciary and courts are independent.
All citizens have the same rights.
The Bedouin have already used the courts to change the settlement proposals.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:05 AM

Why Islam Will Never Accept the State of Israel
By Steven Simpson
It is a common belief that the "Arab-Israeli conflict" is a conflict of two peoples fighting over the same piece of land and is therefore one of nationalism. Rarely, if ever, do we hear or read of the religious component to this conflict.

However, if anything, the conflict is more of a "Muslim-Jewish" one than an "Arab-Israeli" one. In other words, the conflict is based on religion -- Islam vs. Judaism -- cloaked in Arab nationalism vs. Zionism. The fact of the matter is that in every Arab-Israeli war, from 1948 to the present, cries of "jihad," "Allahu Akbar," and the bloodcurdling scream of "Idbah al- Yahud" (slaughter the Jews) have resonated amongst even the most secular of Arab leaders, be it Nasser in the 1950s and 1960s or the supposedly "secular" PLO of the 1960s to the present. Indeed, the question must be asked: If this is really a conflict of different nationalisms and not Islamic supremacism, then why is it that virtually no non-Arab Muslim states have full (if any) relations with Israel?

There is a common Arabic slogan that is chanted in the Middle East: "Khaybar, Khaybar! Oh Jews, remember. The armies of Muhammad are returning!" It would be most interesting to know how many people have ever heard what -- or more precisely, where -- Khaybar is, and what the Arabs mean by such a slogan. A short history of the Jews of Arabia is needed in order to explain this, and why Islam remains so inflexible in its hostile attitude towards Jews and Israel.

Until the founder of Islam, Muhammad ibn Abdallah, proclaimed himself "Messenger of Allah" in the 7th century, Jews and Arabs lived together peacefully in the Arabian Peninsula. Indeed, the Jews -- and Judaism -- were respected to such an extent that an Arab king converted to Judaism in the 5th century. His name was Dhu Nuwas, and he ruled over the Himyar (present day Yemen) area of the Arabian Peninsula. In fact, it is most likely that the city of Medina (the second-holiest city in Islam) -- then called Yathrib -- was originally founded by Jews. In any event, at the time of Muhammad's "calling," three important Jewish tribes existed in Arabia: Banu Qurayza, Banu Nadir, and Banu Qaynuqa.

Muhammad was very keen on having the Jews accept him as a prophet to the extent that he charged his followers not to eat pig and to pray in the direction of Jerusalem. However, the Jews apparently were not very keen on Muhammad, his proclamation of himself as a prophet, or his poor knowledge of the Torah (Hebrew Bible). Numerous verbal altercations are recorded in the Qur'an and various Hadiths about these conflicts between the Jewish tribes and Muhammad.

Eventually, the verbal conflicts turned into physical conflicts, and when the Jews outwardly rejected Muhammad as the "final seal of the prophets," he turned on them with a vengeance. The atrocities that were committed against these tribes are too numerous to cite in a single article, but two tribes, the Qaynuqa and Nadir, were expelled from their villages by Muhammad. It appears that the Qaynuqa left Arabia around 624 A.D. The refugees of the Nadir settled in the village of Khaybar.

In 628 A.D., Muhammad turned on the last Jewish tribe, the Qurayza, claiming that they were in league with Muhammad's Arab pagan enemies and had "betrayed" him. Muhammad and his army besieged the Qurayza, and after a siege of over three weeks, the Qurayza surrendered. While many Arabs pleaded with Muhammad to let the Qurayza leave unmolested, Muhammad had other plans. Unlike expelling the Qaynuqa and Nadir, Muhammad exterminated the Qurayza, with an estimated 600 to 900 Jewish men being beheaded in one day. The women and children were sold into slavery, and Muhammad took one of the widows, Rayhana, as a "concubine."

In 629 A.D., Muhammad led a campaign against the surviving Jews of Nadir, now living in Khaybar. The battle was again bloody and barbaric, and the survivors of the massacre were either expelled or allowed to remain as "second-class citizens." Eventually, upon the ascension of Omar as caliph, most Jews were expelled from Arabia around the year 640 A.D.

This brings us, then, to the question of why modern-day Muslims still boast of the slaughter of the Jewish tribes and the Battle of Khaybar. The answer lies in what the Qur'an -- and later on, the various Hadiths -- says about the Jews. The Qur'an is replete with verses that can be described only as virulently anti-Semitic. The amount of Surahs is too numerous to cite, but a few will suffice: Surah 2:75 (Jews distorted the Torah); 2:91 (Jews are prophet-killers), 4:47 (Jews have distorted the Bible and have incurred condemnation from Allah for breaking the Sabbath), 5:60 (Jews are cursed, and turned into monkeys and pigs), and 5:82 (Jews and pagans are the strongest in enmity to the Muslims and Allah). And of course, there is the genocidal Hadith from Sahih Bukhari, 4:52:177, which would make Adolph Hitler proud. "The Day of Judgment will not have come until you fight with the Jews, and the stones and the trees behind which a Jew will be hiding will say: 'O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!"' Thus, the Arab Muslims had their own "final solution" in store for the Jews already in the 7th century.

The fact that Muslims still point to these (and many other) hateful verses in the Qur'an and Hadith should give Jews -- not just Israelis -- pause to consider if there can ever be true peace between Muslims and Jews, let alone between Muslims and Israel. When the armies of Islam occupied the area of Byzantine "Palestine" in the 7th century, the land became part of "Dar al-Islam" (House of Islam). Until that area is returned to Islam, (i.e., Israel's extermination), she remains part of "Dar al harb" (House of War). It now becomes clear that this is a conflict of religious ideology and not a conflict over a piece of "real estate."

Finally, one must ask the question: Aside from non-Arab Turkey, whose relations with Israel are presently teetering on the verge of collapse, why is it that no other non-Arab Muslim country in the Middle East has ever had full relations (if any at all) with Israel, such as faraway countries like Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan? Indeed, why would Persian Iran -- conquered by the Arabs -- have such a deep hatred for Jews and Israel, whereas a non-Muslim country such as India does not feel such enmity? The answer is painfully clear: The contempt in which the Qur'an and other Islamic writings hold Jews does not exist in the scriptures of the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and other Eastern religions. Therefore, people that come from non-Muslim states do not have this inherent hatred towards Jews, and by extension, towards Israel. But when a people -- or peoples -- is raised with a scripture that regards another people and religion as immoral and less than human, then it is axiomatic why such hatred and disdain exists on the part of Muslims for Jews and Israel.

Islam -- as currently interpreted and practiced -- cannot accept a Jewish state of any size in its midst. Unless Muslims come to terms with their holy writings vis-à-vis Jews, Judaism, and Israel and go through some sort of "reformation," it will be unlikely that true peace will ever come to the Middle East. In the meantime, unless Islam reforms, Israel should accept the fact that the Muslims will never accept Israel as a permanent fact in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM

""Yes garbage can become toxic.
The courts are there to make sure those responsible do not allow it.""

Another hollow laugh! We've already pointed out what Bedouins get from Israeli courts.

NADA!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:35 AM

""I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.""

You are being disingenuous Keith.

You must be aware that landfill sites are only used for housing years after they are covered in, allowed to settle, and regularly checked for toxic gas emissions.

The site under discussion is open, in regular use for diposal of Jerusalem's rubbish, and spread all over the hillside right down to the current Bedouin settlement.

You cannot possibly believe that is acceptable, and you must know that the UN wouldn't think so either.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:25 AM

""Jim, when you read reports by "eye witnesses" remember that the enemies of Israel regard lies as a legitimate weapon.""

While, of course, every utterance by the Israeli government is the plain unvarnished truth, and they are in fact an altruistic organisation devoted to the well being of Arabs and Muslims.

It's just that they truly believe in sending them to a martyr's welcome from Allah! They just want to make them happy.

Grow up Keith!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:15 AM

""Jim, IDF deivered the miltia to the camps to root out PLO fighters.
They have an indirect responsibility for not foreseeing the danger.
We can agree on that.
That much is unequivocal.""

They delivered them and nominally were in charge of, and responsible for, their actions.

This would not have mattered had they stopped the massacre, or even tried their best to do so.

They didn't take any preventive action for three days, and subequently allowed the murderers to walk away.

That is "Accessory, before, during, and after the fact!"

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""All the direct or implicit accusations that the I.D.F. bear any blame whatsoever for this human tragedy in the Shatila Camp are entirely baseless and without any foundation. The Government of Israel rejects them with the contempt which they deserve.""

Well they would say that wouldn't they? That's the simple response.

Expanding a little,....They would also present hard evidence for that statement, assuming such existed, but they didn't. Far from it! Accounts from their own soldiers, horrified by the excesses of the Phalangists directly contradict Israel's statement.

It may well be that Israel (the government) ordered the IDF to put the phalangists in, so that they could be in precisely this position of at least semi plausible deniability. The soldiers' accounts blew deniability out of the water.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:57 AM

""Citizenship rights to everything, except basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads.
I would add sanitation.
All these thing ARE provided when they settle.
All these things are not available when they build without permission.""

You are still not paying attention, are you?

THEY SETTLED 600 YEARS AGO, and have farmed that land ever since.

Israel is treating them exactly as 19th Century Americans treated the Indians who, like these Bedouins, were considered sub human, a hindrance to White settlement and expendable.

It now proposes to herd them into hovels in high crime areas and establish plush settlements with all mod cons for the chosen ones.

Of course, they do have another alternative which I'm sure Israel would prefer. They can leave and become refugees, turning Apartheid Israel into racially pure Israel.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:04 AM

You are now lying again
YOU HAVE NEVER PROVIDED A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR THE ISRAELI CASE
NOR HAVE YOU REPLIED TO MY DESCRIPTION OF TOXICITY
THERE ARE NO DOCUMENTED ACCOUNTS OF ARMED RESISTANCE TO THE MASSACRE
THE IS NO RECORD OF A PLO PRESENCE
Don't know how many of these you want, there are dozens more - don't suppose you'll read them but I hope others will
Jim Carroll

"ISRAELIS MISLED AMERICAN DIPLOMATS ABOUT EVENTS IN BEIRUT AND BULLIED THEM INTO ACCEPTING THE SPURIOUS CLAIM THAT THOUSANDS OF "TERRORISTS" WERE IN THE CAMPS. Most troubling, when the United States was in a position to exert strong diplomatic pressure on Israel that could have ended the atrocities, it failed to do so. As a result, Phalange militiamen were able to murder Palestinian civilians, whom America had pledged to protect just weeks earlier."
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/nyt-responds-to-netanyahu-israelis-misled-and-bullied-us-before-sabra-and-shatila-too.html

http://www.mideastweb.org/kahan_report.htm
0http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20120924053353687
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/09/22/30-years-after-the-massacre-at-sabra-shatila-new-challenges-grip-lebanons-palestinian-camps/
http://www.niu.edu/phil/~kapitan/pdf/SabraandShatillaMassacre.pdf
http://palestinechronicle.com/old/view_article_details.php?id=19574
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/21/262829/sabra-shatila-and-challenges-ahead/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/4381-survivor-niadal-hamad-qit-is-not-permissible-to-forgetsabra-and-shatilaq

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 04:31 AM

Jim, I have not put up evidence about Lebanon 1982 this time.
On previous threads we had proper debates with much exchange of evidence.
I am just not going to do it again.
There is no new evidence and your mind is completely closed.
The only contemporary accounts were from Western journalists and they were consistent with Israel's version.
There were exchanges of fire.

You have yet to respond to my description of the toxic nature of the proposed Bedouin site.
Yes I have.
I pointed out that it is just a normal landfill site that is found anywhere and that such sites are routinely used for housing.
Yes garbage can become toxic.
The courts are there to make sure those responsible do not allow it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 03:53 AM

This now becomes grotesque, though you have confirmed that you regard the targets of this massacre as "the enemy", which you denied before.
The eye-witnesses were survivors of the massacre - so presumably it would have been handier for your case if they had not survived.
No resistance to the massacre has ever been reported, no casualties other than the refugees.
Israelis stood by and witnessed the slaughter for three days without inetervention, other than to provide illumination so that the killers, that they had transported to the killing ground and give access to their victims, could continue their work through the night.
After the slaughter they helped hide the evidence by burying the bodies - the mass graves were later made inaccessible by building a stadium over them.
The killers were then allowed to escape.
"Apart from the journalists, all your "eye witnesses" only remembered what they "saw" years later"
Now you are openly lying again - it has been pointed out to you, in the past and as recently as yesterday, that witnesses included Israeli soldiers who also submitted testimonies describing the events - some of them deeply traumatised by what had happened - one of these accounts provided the basis for the film 'Waltzing With Bashir'.   
Your one single defence of this remains the account of the Israelis - the fully participant perpetrators.
Not one single scrap of evidence backs up their case, just "we didn't do it.
Your suggestion that the Israelis "stopped the massacre" is an obscene insult to those who died - and to our intelligence.
You appear to have gone totally around the twist on this one - a massacre supporter too far.
You have yet to respond to my description of the toxic nature of the proposed Bedouin site.
Similarly, you have not offered an opinion on the racist/Fascist nature of evicting Bedouins from their traditional homeland in order to make way for Jewish settlers.
You have not even acknowledges the 'Inequality Report' that paints a picture of Israel's Apartheid state.
You have not responded to one single question asked of you other than describe those of us who find these events horrifically inhuman as "enemies of Israel" and to suggest that we are 'Antisemite' by feeling such revulsion.
AND YOU HAVE YET TO PROVIDE A LINK TO ONE SINGLE SHRED OF DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR DISGUSTING CLAIMS - YOU APPEAR TO NOW BE TOTALLY MAKING IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG
You appear to have shot your bolt on this one.
CONGRATULATIONS - YOU HAVE NOW BECOME A FULLY-FLEDGED SUPPORTER OF MASS MURDER AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY - I NEVER DOUBTED FOR A MOMENT THAT YOU'D GET THERE EVENTUALLY.
YOUR POSITION ON THIS CHILLINGLY REMINDS ME OF ACCOUNTS I HAVE READ OF THE DEFENCE OF THE HOLOCAUST, BOTH AT THE TRIALS OF ITS PERPETRATORS AND BY ITS SUPPORTERS
Jim Carroll