BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:19 PM

If Obama Had Given That Speech at AIPAC ...
... quite a few people in attendance would have booed him.
Jeffrey Goldberg Mar 21 2013, 4:52 PM ET

If Obama had delivered the speech he just gave in Jerusalem to the annual AIPAC convention, he might have been booed. No, check that, he definitely would have been booed. Not by everyone, of course, but by quite a few people. (I've been to enough of them to know.)

He would not have been booed for his vigorous endorsement of the Zionist idea, of course; nor for his promise to stand by Israel though thick and thin; not for his expressions of admiration for Jews and Judaism; and not for the promise to maintain Israel's qualitative military edge; but for asking his audience to sympathize with ordinary Palestinians, who have lousy lives in good measure because of the occupation. He definitely would have been heckled for that one. And I'm sure of one other thing: His endorsement of a Palestinian state, as an answer to the existential dilemma of the Palestinians, and as an answer to the question of whether Israel can maintain itself as a Jewish-majority democracy, would have been met at AIPAC by a combination of tepid applause, silence, and scattered heckling. It's obvious to me that from now on, Obama should deliver his pro-Israel speeches at the Jerusalem Convention Center, not the Washington Convention Center.

The speech was, overall, quite eloquent and strong, and very moving from the Jewish perspective (there were bits that were too naive for me, but more on that later). It is the setting, though, that made it brilliant: Standing ovations from young Israelis for an endorsement of a Palestinian state by an enthusiastically Zionist African-American President whose middle name is Hussein. How, exactly, did he pull that one off?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:59 PM

Ha, ha I knew he couldn't stay out - now he's doing it by PM.

I really feel that he'd be a lot happier if he would unburden himself of his hate. But I wish him well, I really do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:09 AM

I say I have an open mind, and will not believe evil of a people (Israeli Jews and the governments they elect) without evidence.

That is the OPPOSITE of a bigot Steve!

You have passed judgement on a people without evidence to support that judgement.

That defines a bigot Steve.

Stringsinger made false libels against that people in his OP and in the very title of this thread.
No justification because it is actually made up and untrue!

That is the behaviour of a bigot.

Now you say to your friends, let us leave this thread to avoid having our prejudiced beliefs questioned.

That too is the behaviour of a bigot.

Prejudiced bigots tend to be minority groups.
You imagine you are an enlightened majority, but you exist in a bubble where you only debate with other members and you only look at propaganda sources.
You believe that everyone else and the media conspire to deceive you.

Look outside your bubble.
No decent government would have close relations with an apartheid state, or a terrorist state, or a criminal state.
So all the liberal democracies of the world are part of the conspiracy, or duped by it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:31 AM

"I KEEP asking for a specific example."
Who the hell do you think yo are to behave the way you have on this thread
Who gives a toss what you think (or in your case, don't think)?
You haven't backed anything you have claimed with evidence - you don't even bother linking anything you have claimed to real sources.
You have treated the people who have argued with you with utter contempt, dismissing their evidence out of hand as "unreliable, biased, naive, lying, bigoted, antisemitic...... while putting up none whatever up of your own with the exception, by your own admission, of the claims from the perpetrators themselves that they didn't do what they have been accused and proved guilty beyond doubt of doing
You haven't even bothered to be consistent with your unqualified claims; one minute an eye-witness couldn't possibly have seen what she said she saw, next minute she's taking long walks and viewing the massacre from the hospital roof - now we're back to "she and her fellow nurses couldn't possibly have seen anything, this time, with the magnificently Alice in Wonderland addition that they didn't even know the massacre had happened because they weren't told about it till long afterwards how crass can you get?
WHAT ARE YOU ON? - AS STUPIDLY EVIL AS YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST, YOU REALLY HAVE FLIPPED THIS ON THIS ONE.
You have been given miles of proof of Israel's guilt in horrific crimes against unarmed non-combatants - what special insider knowledge gives you the right to dismiss eye witness accounts, results of investigations by reliable and independent bodies and organisations, accredited and trustworthy journalists and newspapers... a whole book based on unimpeachable sources from both sides of the argument? How dare you dismiss out of hand eye-witness accounts by Israeli soldiers who took part in the events, without even bothering to qualify why you dismiss them - WHO THE **** DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?
How dare you reject facts on the poisonous state of the land that Bedouins are probably going to be forced to live on, when it has even been confirmed by the Israeli Health Department that it is toxic and after the United Nations has declared such behaviour to be war crime?
The most comprehensive of the Sabra/Shatila massacre you dismiss as TOO LONG, SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BOTHER READING IT. YOU DON'T EVEN BOTHER TO MENTION THE ONLY INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THAT MASSACRE- the McBRIDE REPORT, WHICH FOUND ISRAEL AND ITS LATER-TO-BE PRIME MINISTER GUILTY BEYOND DOUBT OF A HORRIFIC WAR CRIME
Indisputable evidence of Israeli atrocities you ignore altogether; the use of noxious chemicals - Skunk - on the homes of Palestinians who are in the way of building settlements; the use of toxic sprays on crops and livestock, the physical and mental abuse of children suspected, but not convicted of crimes; racial segregation of public transport (aptly compared to pre-civil rights behaviour in the US)
You have made perfectly clear by your arguments that racism, mass-murder, chemicals used on civilians, the destruction of homes and the indiscriminate slaughter of non-combatants, starvation tactics and racist humiliation, eviction without redress..... and a whole host of crimes against humanity are all OK by you - not one peep of a criticism - in fact, unqualified defence of every single thing Israel has been accused, and would undoubtedly have been found guilty of if the US had not prevented them from coming to trial by power of veto.
Your performance here has been arrogant, crudely shallow, lazy, inept and dishonest throughout.
Your continuing dishonesty in requesting "specific examples" sums your dishonest completely OUT OF CURIOSITY I PUT A FEW UP - YOU IGNORED THEM TOTALLY - IN OTHER WORDS, YOU OPENLY LIED AS I EXPECTED YOU TO   
I have no doubt that you and your nodding dog will describe this as "personal insults because I'm losing the argument" - neither of you seem to be over-endowed with either honesty or self respect.
Steve Shaw is right - you and your shower of bigots really are not worth bothering about - anyway, you've managed to crap in your own nest so blatantly, crudely and overwhelmingly that there really isn't any point in prolonging this any further - to borrow one of your own phrases "our work is done here".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:13 AM

You haven't backed anything you have claimed with evidence
That is because I make no claims.
I just ask for evidence of YOUR claims.
Example.
Yesterday you claimed that Siegel saw bulldozer burials and you would be happy to look it up for us.
We are still waiting Jim.

the McBRIDE REPORT, WHICH FOUND ISRAEL AND ITS LATER-TO-BE PRIME MINISTER GUILTY BEYOND DOUBT OF A HORRIFIC WAR CRIME

No, it ascribed "direct or indirect responsibility," which Israel acknowledged in its own enquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:22 AM

""Only fools lap up all the propaganda without question.""

Says the man who laps up every piece of Israeli propaganda.

Bigger fools believe that every witness against Israel is a liar. The sheer volume of witness evidence makes that an infinitessimal likelihood

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:08 AM

"You haven't backed anything you have claimed with evidence"
That is a VERY stupid and VERY public lie.
Below is a list of links OF EVIDENCE YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN ON THIS THREAD
You may not accept it - you certainly will not like it - but only a moron would attempt to claim it is not EVIDENCE
It comes from varied sources and many of the links contain further links to further verification.
In the main, the people who have provided this EVIDENCE have avoided what we know you would reject out of hand - it didn't matter anyway - you've dismissed or ignored every piece that didn't favour Israel's war crimes.
This is EVIDENCE, it stands as EVIDENCE by every description - it is certainly EVIDENCE of your lying.
What are you going to do - deny that it is EVIDENCE withdraw ytour claim that you have been provided with no EVIDENCE and by doing so, admit that you have been again lying - what - I really am dying to know?
Stop insulting the intelligence of everybody on this thread with your stupidly childish lies
Jim Carroll

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/#ixzz2JxSAeUMd
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/
http://world.time.com/2013/02/01/the-fallout-from-the-air-raid-on-syria-why-israel-is-concerned/#ixzz2JlofwUYJ""
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/19/262446/israels-american-license-for-genocide/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement
http://www.davidsheen.com/racism/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_acfNfFkgw
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2012/10/23/survey-of-israeli-racism-58-of-jews-label-their-state-apartheid/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/briefing-papers/1230-israels-discrimination-against-its-arab-citizens
http://electronicintifada.net/content/un-body-appalled-israels-racial-segregation-policies/11065
http://www.timesofisrael.com/woman-arrested-for-wearing-a-talit-at-the-western-wall/
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/rel-fan-articles.html
http://urj.org/about/union/pr/2012/?syspage=article&item_id=98020
http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=296430
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3480345,00.html
http://www.policymic.com/articles/21819/women-s-rights-in-israel-girls-as-young-as-3-face-gender-discrimination
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israeli-rabbis-ban-home-sale-and-rental-non-jews-2010-12-07
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33429.htm
http://www.sciforums.com/BBC-on-Israel-s-Negev-Bedouin-policy-shame-t-71060.html
ttp://palsolidarity.org/2011/12/khan-al-ahmar-forced-expulsion-of-bedouins-from-area-c/
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israel-cancel-plan-forcibly-displace-jahalin-bedouin-communities-2012-02-08
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/it-s-time-to-intervene-against-racism-in-israeli-soccer-1.422040
http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-gave-israel-green-light-for-sabra-shatila-genocide/5305298
http://www.mideastweb.org/kahan_report.htm
0http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20120924053353687
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/09/22/30-years-after-the-massacre-at-sabra-shatila-new-challenges-grip-lebanons-palestinian-camps/
http://www.niu.edu/phil/~kapitan/pdf/SabraandShatillaMassacre.pdf
http://palestinechronicle.com/old/view_article_details.php?id=19574
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/21/262829/sabra-shatila-and-challenges-ahead/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/4381-survivor-niadal-hamad-qit-is-not-permissible-to-forgetsabra-and-shatilaq
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html
www.economist.com/node/21536645
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/iopt0308/3.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/01/8024
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/2010/08/uprooting-weeds-by-devorah-brous-march.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_al-Na'am
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/313-washington-report-archives-2006-2010/september-october-2007/9446-jewish-american-activist-champions-cause-of-israels-disenfranchised-bedouin.html
http://lordsoftheblog.net/2012/07/10/the-bedouin-of-israel-the-west-bank-and-east-jerusalem/
https://theshalomcenter.org/content/israeli-jewish-renewal-report-bedouin-inside-israel
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57488629/16-egyptian-soldiers-killed-in-sinai-buried/"
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/columns/21-Feb-2013/the-morsi-era
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/18/us-palestinians-tunnels-idUSBRE91H04X20130218
www.economist.com/node/21536645
http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/313-washington-report-archives-2006-2010/september-october-2007/9446-jewish-american-activist-champions-cause-of-israels-disenfranchised-bedouin.html
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/2010/08/uprooting-weeds-by-devorah-brous-march.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075985/Women-told-sit-buses-Israel-despite-practice-outlawed.html
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/05/17194265-a-palestinian-rosa-parks-is-needed-israels-segregated-buses-spark-outrage
http://inminds.co.uk/from-beirut-to-jerusalem.html
http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/truth-about-israels-vile-role-in-1982-sabra-shatila-massacre-of-palestinians/
http://inminds.co.uk/from-beirut-to-jerusalem.html
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/October/4o/Remembering%20Sabra%20and%20Shatila%20and%20atoning%20Ellen%20Siegel.htm
http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/truth-about-israels-vile-role-in-1982-sabra-shatila-massacre-of-palestinians/
http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text
Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/03/palestinian-bedouins-threatened-eviction.html#ixzz2OHPs2Li2"
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2012/12/20121217125028262988.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
And the proposal that has just been vetoed out
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164618#.UUxus34pDvg
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/
http://www.safsaf.org/word/2012/des/71.htm
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM

""Note the lack of commentary from those who insist on labeling Israel an "apartheid" state.""

Nothing much to say Bobad, is there?

We've all seen carefully orchestrated shows before, and if it weren't Israel, you would be among the first to point that out.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

""You withdrew from Gaza and got missiles in return. ""

Which, of course wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that the so called withdrawal was actually state of siege which has resulted in Gaza citizens being shot dead if they approach the border on the Gaza side, fishermen being fired on by Israeli gunboats and restricted to waters away from the fish, and sundry other little peccadilloes, such as bombing the open prison camp they had created back to the middle ages.

A really convincing demonstration of the desire for peace....NOT!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:26 AM

""I for one think it's time we starved them of their vile platform. I say let 'em carry on wallowing in their own stinking ordure. There will be another time.""

Yes, time to go and get a breath of fresh clean air where massacres aren't covered up and bigotry doesn't rule.

I'm with you Steve.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM

Says the man who laps up every piece of Israeli propaganda.
Not true.
You believe every accusation against Israel.
I do not believe a denial of an accusation, I just ask for evidence to support the accusation.
I do not automatically believe anything.
That would make me a bigot.

Jim, did Siegel report seeing burials, or were you wrong to make that claim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 08:00 AM

Lest there be any confusion re my post of 22 Mar 13 - 09:59 PM Steve did not send me a hateful PM, just a mild epithet but I've been called worse things by better people. The hate I was referring to is that expressed towards Israel in his posts and to those who hold differing opinions whom he labels bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:01 AM

"Jim, did Siegel report seeing burials, or were you wrong to make that claim?"
You've seen the EVIDENCE - oh sorry, there was no EVIDENCE at all, was there?
Nurse Ellen Seigal said:
"As the occupying force in Beirut, the IDF under the command of Ariel Sharon was responsible for the safety of the population. The IDF opened the refugee camps to a militia with a history of hatred and indiscriminate violence against Palestinians. It sealed off the refugee camps. It refused to allow terrified, pleading camp residents to escape through the exits of the camps. The IDF supplied the flares that lit the way for the murderers; it provided a bulldozer to help bury bodies in a mass grave and hide it with earth. And no official intervened when it became clear that innocent lives were being taken."
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm
You said:
"I believe Fisk - I believe Siegel." (22 Mar 13 - 10:46 AM)
If she made this up she is a liar - is that now your case, so why not just call her one and be done with it.
She also said:
"Another reason for new interest in this "old news" is the initiation of new court proceedings. A day after the BBC film aired, a formal complaint charging Sharon with war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide was lodged with the Belgian Prosecutor's Office in Brussels on behalf of 28 Lebanese and Palestinian survivors of the massacre. There was a time when terms such as "war crimes, war crime tribunals and crimes against humanity" were associated only with responsibility for the Holocaust. Now they come to mind when we hear names like Pinochet and Milosovic and think of places like Rwanda and Argentina. The connections of these concepts to the actions of the Jewish state, however, remain particularly disturbing. Finally, the current collapse of relations between the Israelis and Palestinians gives us pause to look back. Knowing Sharon's past behavior toward the Palestinians, one can only fear his future actions. The outlook is frightening for both Jews and Palestinians."
I take it that you are not even acknowledge your lying about there being no EVIDENCE - which is EVIDENCE enough of your having lied.
I wonder what you regard Ellen Seigal's statement is if it is notEVIDENCE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:50 AM

Siegel is entitled to her opinions.
I think she has described her actual experience honestly.

She saw no Israelis in the camps.
She saw a bulldozer clearing the ground by the southern entrance.
She saw no bodies being buried.
She said it was yellow so unlikely to be an IDF vehicle.

She reported that her party was saved from execution by an Israeli running from positions outside the camp, and given honey cake that soldiers' mothers had sent them because it was "their Christmas."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 10:51 AM

Piss off Keith - you're making a bigger pratt of yourself than you have already - no, on second thoughts - keep it coming.
If you promise you will then in return I'll happily cut and paste big lumps of EVIDENCE OF ISRAELI ATROCITIES(non-existent, of course, so you will have given me the opportunity to remove any remaining doubts of the nature of the Israeli regime.
Sample one - hundreds more to choose from:

"On April 9, 1948, the Jewish dissident organization, the Irgun Zvai Leumi, massacred 250 residents of Deir Yassin, an Arab village west of Jerusalem. This massacre, the worst ever committed by Jewish terrorists, was condemned at the time by Jewish leaders including Ben Gurion. The Irgun was commanded by Menachem Begin."
Sabra/Shatila by Amnon Kapeliouk

"What therefore did Generals Sharon and Eitan do? The Israeli Army surrounded the camps, disarmed the Lebanese militias hostile to the Phalangists, coordinated the latter's entry into the camps giving them diverse logistical support, and closed its eyes and ears during forty hours of carnage. The result: about 3000 civilians were killed in an orgy of massacres rarely witnessed since World War II."
(ibid)

"Another serious shortcoming of the Kahan Commission's report pertains to the question of responsibility for the massacre. On this matter, the conclusions of the Commission are in contradiction with the facts that are included in its report. The Israeli Army occupied West Beirut and became, according to the most elementary principles of international law, responsible for the peace and security of its civilian population. In addition, Israelis justified their entry into West Beirut under the pretext of their desire "to forestall the danger of violence, bloodshed and chaos." (Final Report, p. 28). On September 16, 1982, the day after the Israeli occupation of West Beirut, the defense minister's office issued a document specifically stating that:
Only one element, and that is the IDF [Israeli Defense Forces], shall command the forces in the area. For the operation in the camps the Phalangists should be sent in. (Final Report, p. 20).
According to the interpretation of the director of military intelligence, "the meaning is that all forces operating in the area, including the Phalangists, will be under the authority of the IDF and will act according to its instructions." (Final Report, p. 20).
On the same day, during a Cabinet session, Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan told Israeli leaders that:
He had informed the Phalangist commanders that their men would have to take part in the operation and go in where they were told, that early that evening they would begin to fight and would enter the extremity of Sabra, that the IDF would ensure that they did not fail in their operation but IDF soldiers would not enter the camps and would not fight together with the Phalangists, rather the Phalangists would go in there "with their own methods ". ... In his remarks the Chief of Staff explained that the camps were surrounded "by us," that the Phalangists would begin to operate that night in the camps, that we could give them orders whereas it was impossible to give orders to the Lebanese Army. (Final Report. p. 26)."
(ibid)

That'll do for now - looking forward to hearing from you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM

You mean you will transpose more huge chunks of your thoroughly unbalanced tome.
Groan.
This bit takes us even further back into history.
65 Years back!
What next. The Crucifixion?
You must know that both sides committed crimes in those times, but you are always silent about Arab crimes against Jews.

Your author has misunderstood the significance of "He had informed the Phalangist commanders that their men would have to take part in the operation and go in where they were told, that early that evening they would begin to fight and would enter the extremity of Sabra, that the IDF would ensure that they did not fail in their operation but IDF soldiers would not enter the camps and would not fight together with the Phalangists, rather the Phalangists would go in there "with their own methods ". ... In his remarks the Chief of Staff explained that the camps were surrounded "by us,"

The "operation" was to take on any fighters.
It was recognised that they were better than IDF in that kind of operation."with their own methods"
None of that is about murdering civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:23 PM

Nope
"The Jenin massacre is mentioned. That never happened."
Israeli Terror in Jenin
Tanks and bulldozers attacked inhabitated homes
Palestinian civilians were used as human shields
"Israel's fiercest assault of its 2-week-old West Bank operation dealt systematic destruction and random death to civilians as well as fighters in this militant Palestinian stronghold (Jenin), according to displaced residents of the camp and relief workers in Jenin...the Israelis fired on unarmed civilians, used them as human shields and obstructed medical workers trying to save the wounded. One camp resident, Ali Ramile, a 40-year-old truck driver, said he watched Israeli soldiers kill seven or eight disarmed Palestinian fighters execution-style and dump several loads of bodies in a mass grave within 100 yards of his home...interviews with more than a dozen Palestinians from the Jenin camp indicated a heavy loss of civilian life there. Nearly everyone interviewed said they had watched neighbors die from Israeli shelling or sniper fire, or at least seen bodies in the street....
"Ten days ago, we hoped someone could do something to save the refugee camp, but now the camp is gone,' said Dr. Ziad Ayaseh, the hospital's director. Israeli missiles took out several water tanks on the roof, threatening the hospital's water supply, he said. The army siege blocked fuel supplies that power the hospital's generator--the only source of electric power. The staff pharmacologist and urologist were slightly wounded by apparently stray army gunfire. A 16-year-old boy was shot dead Thursday on a street in Jenin, half an hour after the army had lifted a curfew to allow the city's residents to move about for the first time in five days, hospital officials say. A 52-year-old woman wounded Monday inside her home in the refugee camp bled to death before relatives could get her to the hospital Thursday, they said. Sameh Abazeineh, an aide to Jenin's mayor, said his 70-year-old neighbor died waving his arms in the air in a futile effort to stop an Israeli bulldozer from destroying his home in the camp. Other residents reported seeing a tank round kill a neighbor who was recharging his cellular phone with his car battery and finding the body of a mentally disabled neighbor who had been shot and run over by a tank. Riad Ghaleb, a 28-year-old produce merchant, said the Israelis targeted his entire camp neighborhood...Helicopter gunships fired on rows of densely packed homes, killing two young boys in their home, he charged. 'After that, I saw five bulldozers and three tanks come in,' said Ghaleb, who walked out of the camp into central Jenin on Thursday. 'Now there are no more houses in my neighborhood. It's all a big highway now.'..
"News agency reporters Thursday (April 11) managed to tour a small corner of the camp, which had been off limits to journalists during eight days of combat. They saw widespread devastation--homes flattened by bulldozers, walls blackened by fire and the streets chewed up by armored vehicles... Roughly one-third of Jenin's 40,000 people lived in cinder-block houses on the refugee camp's narrow streets. The army used bulldozers to knock down homes and clear the way for its tanks...One bulldozer also wreaked destruction in the center of Jenin as it moved behind a tank along Old Castle Street toward the refugee camp. Just before Ahmed and Bassam Fashafsheh's stone home, the street narrowed and the tank couldn't squeeze by. Issam Fashafsheh, a relative, said he watched early this week as the tank fired ...into the house, backed up and moved aside so the bulldozer could advance. The bulldozer knocked in the wall of the living room, killing the middle-aged couple and their 9-year-old son, Samira.
"When Israeli troops entered the camp on foot to search homes for armed militants, they sent captive Palestinian men ahead of them at gunpoint to knock on the doors or break through the walls. The army has acknowledged the practice, saying it discourages armed resistance. Ali Mustafa Sireh, 42, said he was working as such a door-to-door human shield in the refugee camp when, at the 10th house, he was shot in the knee by Israeli snipers who apparently did not see his captors. At that point, he said, the Israelis abandoned him, and it took four days for relatives to get him to the hospital.
"But few experiences capture the terror of the assault like that told by Khadra Samara, 33, whose husband, Hisham, 40, is the Al Razi hospital's cook. She first noticed a tank outside her home at 11 p.m. Sunday (April 7), she said. At 11:30, it knocked down the front gate. 'We screamed and lighted candles to make the Israelis aware that people were in the house,' she said, but the tank kept coming. It fired a missile into the second and third floors, she said, causing a bright flash, shattering the windows and sending all 15 people in the home to the ground floor. The demolition halted until 5 a.m., when the household was awakened by the sound of a bulldozer outside. It slammed into the front of the house, crashing into a large bedroom in which the family had been sleeping, she said. Houses in the camp abut each other, so Samara and her relatives hammered a hole in a side wall and broke in next door, where her sister-in-law's family lives. Less than an hour later, she said, that house came under attack, and 30 people crawled through to the next house in line, which had been abandoned. That refuge stood up until 3 p.m. Monday, when it fell after a three-hour bulldozer assault, she said. 'We moved from the bedroom to the bathroom to the kitchen--wherever we thought was safest,' Samara said. 'The children started vomiting. I phoned the hospital. My husband said to leave the camp immediately. I demanded an ambulance. He said the Israelis won't let one through.' It took them five more hours to talk their way through Israeli checkpoints and reach the hospital, waving white prayer scarves and dodging stun grenades from helicopters that followed them."
--L.A. Times, April 12

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine52.html

The Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, went out of his way to embarrass the divided US administration yesterday, openly thanking the Americans for scuttling the proposed UN investigation of Palestinian deaths in the West Bank town of Jenin.

His remarks were made only hours before he met George Bush in the White House.

There are sharp differences between Israel and the US about the role of Yasser Arafat and Saudi Arabia in future peace negotiations.
The US secretary of state, Colin Powell, played an important part in setting up the Jenin mission, in response to Palestinian claims of a massacre. It collapsed last month, because of Israeli opposition, before it even reached the West Bank.
Addressing the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish American pressure group, Mr Sharon hinted heavily that the Bush administration had ultimately helped block the inquiry. "No nation in the world has the right to bring Israel to court," he said.
"I would like to thank the American administration and its leadership that helped us, understood us, and supported us to get out of this trap."
The speech put the administration in an awkward situation by suggesting that the US had acted privately to thwart a mission it supported in public.
Denying Mr Sharon's claim would anger the fervently pro-Israel Congress, which is currently debating whether to increase the annual $2.8bn (£1.9bn) subsidy to Israel.
There was no immediate US response to Mr Sharon's comments yesterday, but a diplomat watching the speech said that state department officials present turned "dour" when they heard them.
UN officials said the US had initially proposed a fact-finding mission principally as a means of heading off a security council resolution establishing a full investigative commission. But as opposition in the Israeli defence force became clear and the Israeli foreign minister, Shimon Peres, dropped his initial support, the US envoy to the UN, John Negroponte, distanced himself from the idea.
Kofi Annan, the UN secretary general, was left "holding the baby", a UN official said. "He read the writing on the wall and pulled the plug."
Another diplomat at the UN headquarters in New York agreed. "I don't think the US were out to get Sharon off the hook, but once it was clear he was not going to accept the mission, they may have tried to use it to get a package out of him."
Mr Sharon used his visit to Washington and his fifth meeting with Mr Bush to press for Mr Arafat's future exclusion from the peace process, arguing that he had supported terrorism.
The Israeli delegation arrived brandishing documents which it claims prove Mr Arafat's sponsorship of terrorist attacks.
Mr Sharon advocated a regional peace conference which he would attend, but not the Palestinian leader.
Mr Powell, meanwhile, is making plans for an international meeting of foreign ministers this summer, which would exclude Israeli and Palestinian leaders and therefore sidestep the personal animus between them.
Mr Bush and Mr Sharon were reported to have discussed the reconstruction of the Palestinian Authority in the wake of the Israeli offensive, but once again Mr Arafat's role was at the heart of the discussion.
The US accepts the Palestinian leader as indispensable to peace, but the Israeli prime minister has made it clear that he envisages a reconstructed authority without him.
"A responsible Palestinian Authority that can advance the cause of peace should not be dependent on the will of one man," he said.
The Israelis angered their American hosts by accusing Saudi Arabia of funding suicide bombers and the Islamist militant group Hamas, while the Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, was holding talks with the US administration, which has en thusiastically backed the regional peace proposal put forward by the Saudi leadership.
"We can't figure out what they're up to," the US press quoted a senior administration official as saying. "We need the Saudis right now. They need the Saudis right now. This doesn't make sense."
Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi ambassador to the US, called the allegations "totally baseless and false" and accused Israel of trying to distract attention from the peace process.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4409055,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 02:54 PM

So the wicked lies are still being pushed by your propaganda sites and gullible, hate filled dupes like you still lap them all up and pass them on as if true.

"Subsequent investigations and reports by the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Time Magazine, and the BBC all concluded there was no massacre of civilians, with estimated death tolls of 46–55 people among reports by the IDF, the Jenin office of the United Nations, and the Jenin Hospital.[79] A team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reporting to Fatah numbered total casualties of 56,[67] as disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank.
The UN report to the Secretary General noted "Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin. The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55."[4] While noting the number of civilian deaths might rise as rubble was cleared, the report continued, "nevertheless, the most recent estimates by UNRWA and ICRC show that the number of missing people is constantly declining as the IDF releases Palestinians from detention."[4] Human Rights Watch completed its report on Jenin in early May, stating "there was no massacre," but accusing the IDF of war crimes,[80] and Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre."[1] Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for."[81] A BBC report later noted, "Palestinian authorities made unsubstantiated claims of a wide-scale massacre,"[15] and a reporter for the Observer opined that what happened in Jenin was not a massacre.[82]"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 02:59 PM

Eye witness reports!

. One camp resident, Ali Ramile, a 40-year-old truck driver, said he watched Israeli soldiers kill seven or eight disarmed Palestinian fighters execution-style and dump several loads of bodies in a mass grave within 100 yards of his home...interviews with more than a dozen Palestinians from the Jenin camp indicated a heavy loss of civilian life there.

That is how reliable your all your "eye witnesses" are.

Pity your author is dead.
There is material for a few more of his books to get you all salivating.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 03:05 PM

"Subsequent investigations and reports by the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Time Magazine, and the BBC...."

That's an impressive lineup of impartial sources Keith.


http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine52.html
Independent History & Research Box 849, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho 83816
Michael Anthony Hoffman II
"Michael Anthony Hoffman II is an American Holocaust denier and conspiracy researcher/theorist." - Wikipedia

Jim, Jim, Jim.....good lord.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 03:47 PM

"Pity your author is dead."
As far as I know The Los Angeles Times is alive and Kicking
"Michael Anthony Hoffman II is an American Holocaust denier and conspiracy researcher/theorist."
I have no doubt you are right Bobad, but if you care to check, his quote was also a direct lift from the Los Angeles Times - perhaps you might like to join one of Keith's literacy classes? - On second thoughts, maybe not.

Press on.
Distract, delay, derail
Arab members of the UN Security Council, pressed to act by the exploding mass movements in their own streets, as a bloc proposed a resolution that called for sending a multinational force to defend the Palestinians from the Israeli onslaught throughout the occupied West Bank. They also proposed organizing an inquiry into Israeli occupation crimes in the West Bank. Clearly the resolution would be a major embarrassment unacceptable to the United States.
The U.S. government financially, militarily, politically and diplomatically supports Israel and its continuing attacks on the Palestinian people. That's because Washington considers Israel one of the best defenders of U.S. corporate interests in the region.
On April 4, the U.S. pushed through UN Security Council Resolution 1403, "welcoming the mission of the U.S. Secretary of State to the region as well as efforts by others... to bring about a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East."
Washington claimed it was brokering a deal to end the Israeli siege. U.S. Special Envoy General Anthony Zinni was in Israel during the entire Israeli offensive. Secretary of State Colin Powell was in Israel supposedly to discuss 'peace' as news coverage of Jenin reached world attention. Although both U.S. officials attended commemorations of Israeli casualties, neither made any attempt to go to Jenin. Israel could hardly have denied either of them the access it denied the UN.
Arab countries called on the Bush administration to intervene to restrain Israel. Washington did not want to be in the position of publicly vetoing an Arab resolution in the UN Security Council that called for strong UN action at a time of international outrage. So a backroom deal was made to avoid a U.S. veto, give the appearance of some movement and yet ensure that no significant action was authorized. The stronger Security Council resolution of the Arab Group was withdrawn and the U.S. crafted the watered-down Resolution 1405 that passed with unanimous support on April 19.
Israeli leaders initially claimed they welcomed the U.S.-worded resolution because their hands were "clean," they had acted in "self-defense." While Israel stalled, Secretary of State Colin Powell publicly backed up the Israeli claim that no massacre had taken place. On April 24, speaking before the U.S. Senate Appropriations Foreign Operations Subcommittee, Powell said, "clearly people died in Jenin... I've seen no evidence that would suggest a massacre took place."[6]
This became the official position. No investigation was needed because no massacre had taken place. While the outside world, even relief agencies, were barred from the camp the Israelis began a series of demands. They demanded further changes in the composition of the delegation for "balance," the addition of military personnel, and insisted that no interviews or interrogation of any Israeli troops could take place. Finally they decreed that the fact-finding team could reach no conclusions, nor call for any specific action. While these issues were debated, all members of the expanded fact-finding team were put on hold.
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan acquiesced to each new Israeli demand. Yet Israel still denied the UN team entry into the refugee camp. Israel could not have taken any of these actions without the full support of Washington.
Even UN members who had initially made very strong reports, such as UN Special Envoy Terje Roed-Larsen began to backtrack under heavy pressure.
I have been totally misrepresented in parts of the Israeli media, evidently quoting me wrongly, saying that I stated that there was a massacre in Jenin. I said nothing of the sort... There was a stench of decaying bodies there which was absolutely awful. But that does not imply that I said that there was a massacre there. These are horrors of war, and I cannot judge if there was a massacre or not. And this is why everybody should now be relieved that there will be a fact-finding mission which will find out what happened there. And after that we will all judge.[7]
Finally, on May 3, two weeks after the unanimous passage of the U.S.-drafted resolution, Kofi Annan officially disbanded the "fact-finding" team because Israel would not allow entry even after every Israeli demand had been accepted.
Tunisian representative to the UN Noureddine Mejdoub stated in a special Security Council session on May 3,
Let us imagine that an Arab state had committed an act many times less grave than those perpetrated by Israel. Immediately a coalition force would have been formed, the rule of law would have been invoked, the binding nature of council resolutions would have been reaffirmed and sanctions would have been imposed.[8]
The Bush administration, which scripted and then dropped its mild resolution on Jenin after just two weeks, is nevertheless still demanding full enforcement of sanctions resolutions imposed on Iraq – 12 years after Iraqi troops left Kuwait.
Yet even after the UN disbanded the fact-finding team and dropped any implementation of its resolution, the U.S. was faced with a political problem. It was beyond dispute that the Palestinian refugees in the densely populated cinder block housing in the center of Jenin had been attacked with tanks and missiles and their homes then bulldozed into rubble. And there was still the stench of the charge that Israeli troops had committed "massacres" in Jenin and in other camps. This is where another arm of U.S. policy comes in.

Enter Human Rights Watch
On the very day that the UN Secretary General moved to disband the fact-finding team, it was hardly treated as news. All the corporate media were conveniently running banner headlines stating that "no massacre" had taken place in Jenin. They gave as the objective authority for this finding the organization Human Rights Watch.
This let the IDF and the U.S. – which was author of the Security Council resolution and primary supporter of Israel – off the hook.
In fact, the Human Rights Watch report identifies 52 Palestinians killed during the Israeli operation and devotes 42 pages to describing a whole series of "possible" war crimes and violations of international law that the Israeli forces committed. But all this is buried in a report on their web site that few will ever see.
The story that CNN, BBC, AP, AFP, network TV, news magazines and all the other corporate media reported globally in bold headlines and sound bites was that a Human Rights Watch investigation had confirmed "No Jenin massacre." As CNN reported on May 3, "Human Rights Watch found no evidence that Israeli troops massacred Palestinian civilians in Jenin... said Peter Bouckaert, senior researcher for the group and a member of the investigative team." This was the news in a sound bite. It was reinforced in countless articles.
The news reports were based on an interview which Peter Bouckaert gave to the Washington Post on April 26, live from Jenin as he released the report. His words exactly echoed Colin Powell's statement the week before and Israel's position.
In the news coverage this sounded like it was the finding of an "official" inquiry, with no further investigation needed. This was not the first time HRW has stepped in to reinforce U.S. policy with a veneer of apparently unbiased non-governmental judgment.
Who is Human Rights Watch and how were they able to gain access to Jenin for an inquiry at the very time that Israel was denying entry to a delegation chosen by the UN Security Council?
Human Rights Watch was supposedly created to monitor "human rights abuses" worldwide. In reality, it is an institution that has acted at every turn to reinforce the policies of the United States and justify its "humanitarian interventions." It is composed almost entirely of U.S. citizens and its board includes multimillionaires, former U.S. government officials and mainstream academics.
Human Rights Watch began as Helsinki Watch in 1975. It was a powerful Cold War instrument against the Soviet Union and the socialist bloc countries of Eastern Europe. Its network became a web of support for pro-capitalist forces and political dissidents in every country.
Multibillionaire George Soros has played a major role in the development of Human Rights Watch and in linking it with his own personal NGO network, Open Society Institute. Aryeh Neier, the director first of Helsinki Watch and then Human Rights Watch moved on to head the Open Society Institute. Many other directors share positions and change titles within a small world of U.S.-based NGOs.
HRW's Middle East North Africa division has used its position to build support for the continuing U.S. war and sanctions against Iraq. According to the reports of four major UN agencies (WHO, FAO, UNICEF, WFP), UN Security Council sanctions, kept in place at U.S. insistence, have caused the deaths of over 1.5 million Iraqis. Withholding food and civilian supplies is a war crime. However, Human Rights Watch has proposed that to help weaken Saddam Hussein and "encourage Iraqi officials to overthrow him. Saddam Hussein be indicted by an international court for war crimes." (HRW press release, January 5, 2000). If the U.S. objective is an invasion of Iraq, Human Rights Watch is only too happy to oblige with reports and suggestions.
Human Rights Watch claims its reports are objective, balanced and evenhanded. When it comes to Palestine this has meant equating the violence of the illegal Israeli occupation with the resistance of Palestinians to overwhelming military force. Once Human Rights Watch declared that "no massacre" had occurred in Jenin, the demand for an inquiry and international action against Israeli crimes virtually disappeared. Media coverage shifted sharply. The Bush administration made a new round of demands on the Palestinians to condemn violence while calling Ariel Sharon "a man of peace" and expressing sympathy for Israeli "self-defense" measures. HRW statements echoed these shifts.
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0003220.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:01 PM

In any case it would look better on you to stay away from those sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:09 PM

There was no massacre at Jenin.
It was all lies.
All those eye witnesses were liars.
They made up the whole thing to discredit Israel, and it works.
Even after it has been exposed as a lie it is still passed around as truth by "fucking liars" like YOU JIM!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:53 PM

"It was all lies."
No Keith, It was all semantics - there was never a dispute over what happened, despite the fact that the Israelis refused to let either the UN or the world press into the site.
What is in dispute was whether it was a massacre - go and read the reports.
It was described as a war crime, but Israel's used to that.
The trouble with calling everything "lies is nobody believes you when you might have a point.
"fucking liars" like YOU JIM!"
The mask - the mask!!
"In any case it would look better on you to stay away from those sites."
Thanks for the heads-up Bobad - will take more care next time - much appreciated.
Sorry for the snappiness; must be the company I keep.
All gone - more tomorrow.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:58 PM

"Thanks for the heads-up Bobad - will take more care next time - much appreciated."

That's the most sensible thing I've heard from you in a long time Jim :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:04 PM

No Keith, It was all semantics - there was never a dispute over what happened,

Really Jim.
What about the fact that a whole load of "eye witnesses" were produced who lied and lied and lied to frame Israel for a massacre that never happened?
And you are part of that filthy lie.
As Joe so eloquently told you Jim, "you are a fucking liar."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:56 AM

Yeah, yeah, we know all that - you've said it before - interminably.
Must point out that Joe upset a number of good honest people with his somewhat bilious outburst and appears to have disappeared from the scene - I hope temporarily.
It would appear that your "whole load" included Israelis who were responsible for the destruction (not to mention the Americans who persuaded Civil Rights Watch that it was not a massacre) - but there you go....
Must press on - have a nice day
Jim Carroll

The Minority Report – The Palestinian Arab Minority in Israel, 2011
Principle author
Katie Hesketh
Additional authors
Suhad Bishara, Advocate
Rina Rosenberg, Esq.
Sawsan Zaher, Advocate

THE RIGHT TO DEMONSTRATE
The police routinely use force and arrest against Arab citizens of Israel as a deterrent against demonstrating, in order to silence voices of protest, instead of fulfilling the duty of the police to maintain order and ensure freedom of political expression, even in times of war and social, political and national upheaval, when the views of many Arab citizens differ substantially from those of the Jewish majority. Detained protestors are initially held in custody and often denied bail or release under The Criminal Procedure (Power of Enforcement, Detentions) Law (198). The reason usually cited by the authorities is that, if released, they could endanger state security or public safety, disrupt the investigation or influence witnesses. If the case proceeds to prosecution, suspects are generally charged under the Penal Code on charges such as taking part in a prohibited assembly (Article 151) or rioting (Article 152).
Adalah has received many complaints over the years from protestors who were beaten by police officers and then themselves charged with the crime of assaulting a police officer (Articles 273 and 274), and/or with interrupting police officers in the course of carrying out their duties (Article 275).
Case Study:
The October 2000 protest killings In October 2000, Israeli police officers killed 13 unarmed Palestinian citizens of Israel during demonstrations staged to protest against Israel's brutal policies In the OPT During the demonstrations, Israeli police used live ammunition, rubber-coated steel bullets and tear gas against the protestors. Many protestors who were killed were shot in the head or chest by snipers. As a result of the lethal force employed by the police to quash the demonstrations, hundreds of Arab citizens were also injured and more than 1,000 were arrested and detained. Contrary to the recommendations of the official Or Commission of Inquiry in 2003, in January 2008, the Attorney General decided to close the files and not to issue a single indictment against anyone responsible for the killings.-' Until today, ten years after the killings, no police officer, commander or political leader has heen held accountable for the deaths
http://www.scribd.com/doc/117503114/Inequality-Report-The-Palestinian-Arab-Minority-in-Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:39 AM

Subsequent investigations and reports by the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Time Magazine, and the BBC all concluded there was no massacre of civilians.

ALL the "eye witnesses" who claimed to have seen Israelis killing people were liars.
They made it all up to frame Israel for a non-existent crime

Liars like you try to keep the lie alive, regurgitating it and trying to pass it off as truth.
And you feel no shame for it.
Do you not grasp that it is wrong Jim?
"fucking liar"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:40 PM

"fucking liar"
I think you're beginning to turn me on every time you write this - reminds me of the old days.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:48 PM

Whoops - nearly forgot.
Jim Carroll

EMPLOYMENT
• Palestinian citizens of Israel often face discrimination in work opportunities, pay and conditions, both because of the inadequate implementation of equal-opportunity legislation and because of entrenched structural barriers, which particularly affect women, and include poor or non-existent public transportation, a lack of industrial zones, and a shortage of state-run daycare centers. Palestinian citizens are also excluded from the labor force by the use of the military-service criterion as a condition for acceptance for employment, often when there is no connection between the nature of the work and military experience.
• Unemployment rates remain significantly higher among Arab than among Jewish citizens, and the rate of labor-force participation among Palestinian women citizens of Israel, at just about 20%, is among the lowest in the world.
• Palestinian citizens of Israel in general, and women in particular, continue to be sorely underrepresented in the civil service, the largest employer in Israel (in total, Arabs constitute just around 6% of all civil service employees), despite affirmative-action legislation stipulating fair representation for the Arab minority and for women.
• The lack of development and investment in Arab towns and villages inside Israel and the unexploited or under-exploited human resources of the members of the Palestinian minority inhibit the growth of the Israeli
economy. The lost potential to Israel's economy has been estimated at around USS S billion per year by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).
(ibid)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 01:15 PM

You have no shame at all about promoting such a wicked salnder.

No country is faultless and above all criticism.
Why do yo constantly single out the Jewish State for criticicm?

ireland
"The results of this study suggest that accessing financial services and housing, along
with recruitment and the workplace, are areas that may require particular monitoring
for discriminatory practices. In relation to work, the response of the unemployed and
the economically inactive, non-Irish nationals and people with disabilities suggest that
these groups are particularly at risk. In relation to services, disabled people, non-Irish
nationals and minority ethnic groups reported greater likelihood of consistently
experiencing discrimination.
http://www.eapn.ie/eapn/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/experience-of-dicrimination-in-ireland-analysis-of-QNHS-equality-module-2008.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 01:48 PM

Lest we forget: 77% of Israeli Arabs say they would rather live in the State of Israel than anywhere else in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:04 PM

"The only free country in the whole of the Middle East and North Africa."

How do minorities like Christians, Jews or the wrong kind of Muslims fare in the other ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:05 PM

"You have no shame at all about promoting such a wicked salnder."
Please write this down, memorise it and swallow it.
You have spent this entire thread defending some of the worst atrocities on this planet by denying eye-witness accounts, official surveys, human rights organisations studies, victim and perpetrator statements.....
By ignoring or denying all these you have defended massacres, starvation of children, racist abuses, chemical warfare.....
How dare you whinge about my passing on accredited information on a massacre or near massacre (depending on who you believe, but certainly not an isolated incident).
Your behaviour here has been both contemptuous and contemptible, so expect to get similar treatment in return.
What happens in Ireland has nothing whatever to do with this discussion; the information I passed on from the Inequalities Report relates directly to your claim of fair and equal treatment of minorities in Israel and shows without much doubt that Israel is racially divided and far from equal.
While I'm quite happy at the thought that your present apoplectic seizure might bust a blood vessel, I suggest for your own sake that you take a pill or something.
Will dig out some more of the Inequality Report for your bedtime reading.
Wishing you all that you wish me; sleep well.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:21 PM

How dare you whinge about my passing on accredited information on a massacre or near massacre

I don't.
Only when you pass on fake information from lying eye witnesses about a massacre that never happened.
That makes you a "fucking liar."

I do not claim any country is perfect.
All including yours could improve their treatment of minorities.
On a scale, I do believe that Israel is among the best, and its neighbours among the worst.
The Freedom House judgement supports that view.
There is no rational basis for your constantly singling out the Jewish State for your attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:25 PM

There you go.
Jim Carroll

MAIN FINDINGS
THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK OF INEQUALITY
• Inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel span all fields of public life and have persisted over time. Direct and indirect discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel is ingrained in the legal system and in governmental practice.
• The right to equality and freedom from discrimination is not explicitly enshrined in Israeli law as a constitutional right, nor is it protected by statute. While Supreme Court justices have interpreted The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty as comprising the principle of equality, this fundamental right :s currently protected by Judicial interpretation alone.
• The definition of the State of Israel as a Jewish state makes inequality and discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel a reality and a political project. The pairing of "Jewish" and "democratic" both codifies discrimination against non-Jewish citizens and impedes the realization of full equality.
• Numerous groups of Palestinian citizens of Israel face "compound discrimination" or multiple forms of discrimination on the basis of both their national belonging as Arabs/Palestinians and their membership in one or more other distinct subgroups, such as women, the disabled and the elderly.
• More than 30 main laws discriminate, directly or indirectly, against Palestinian citizens of Israel, and the current government coalition has proposed a flood of new racist and discriminatory bills which are at various stages in the legislative process.

CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS
• Palestinian citizens of Israel are afforded differential and unequal treatment under Israeli law in the field of citizenship rights. The most important immigration and nationality laws-including the Law of Return (1950) and the Citizenship Law (1952)—privilege Jews and

JEWISH IMMIGRATION.
• If the spouse of a Palestinian citizen of Israel is a Palestinian resident of the OPT, it has been virtually impossible for him or her to gain residency or citizenship status in Israel since May 2002. This ban on family unification is totally disproportionate to the alleged security reasons cited by Israel to justify it; rather, it is motivated by the state's desire to maintain a Jewish demographic majority.
• A new law makes it possible to strip Israeli citizenship for various reasons related to alleged "disloyalty" to the state or "breach of trust", indirectly targeting the citizenship rights of Palestinian citizens. Several attempts to pass additional laws that grant the authority to revoke citizenship and impose further loyalty oaths are currently pending in the Knesset.

INCOME/POVERTY
• Arab families are greatly over-represented among Israel's poor: over half of Arab families in Israel are classified as poor, compared to an average poverty rate of one-fifth among all families in Israel. Arab towns and villages are heavily over-represented in the lowest socio-
economic rankings, and the unrecognized Arab Bedouin villages in the Naqab are the poorest communities in the state.
• Gaps in income and poverty rates are directly related to institutional discrimination against Arab citizens in Israel.

REDISTRIBUTION OF RESOURCES AND SOCIAL WELFARE
• Although the right to equality demands that states take positive steps to bridge the gaps between the various population groups, the State of Israel actively seeks to promote and direct resources to Jewish citizens as a privileged majority within the "Jewish State". In
many policy areas, including the designation of "National Priority Areas" and the use of the military-service criterion to allocate resources, the state actively preserves and perpetuates inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:07 PM

I do not claim any country is perfect.
Any, including yours, can be criticised for their treatment of minorities.
On a scale, I do believe that Israel is among the best, and its neighbours among the worst.
The Freedom House judgement supports that view.
There is no rational basis for your constantly singling out the Jewish State for your attacks except prejudice.
It marks you out as a BIGOT.
(as well as a "fucking liar")

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

""No country is faultless and above all criticism.
Why do yo constantly single out the Jewish State for criticicm?""

Why do you constantly single out the Jewish State as being above criticism, if you believe what you just said?

There is no single instance of you admitting that Israel has ever done anything wrong, which may account for your refusal ever to discuss the West Bank settlements, which the (according to you biased) UN has ruled illegal and which, nevertheless, continue to increase.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:43 PM

The UN has also ruled that the indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel constitutes a war crime, which makes it illegal, yet they nevertheless persist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:46 PM

It is a lie to say I "constantly single out the Jewish State as being above criticism."

I say again, no country is.
That includes Israel.
It has faults and I have condemned them here many times.

It is very far from being the worst in the world.
It has to deal with situations no other nation faces, yet it is still among the best in the world while its surrounding enemies are among the worst.

No other nation has its faults paraded on Mudcat on thread after thread.
Why do you feel the need to do that to just one state?
The Jewish one.

It is hard not to conclude prejudice, and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM

"I do not claim any country is perfect."
Yes you do Keith - you have defended every atrocity committed by Israel that has been mentioned on any of these threads - you have neither qualified nor produced evidence other than Israeli denials You have even admitted this.
"Why do you feel the need to do that to just one state?"
Israel is the subject of this thread, nowhere else.
"The Jewish one."
There you go again linking Israeli crimes to being "Jewish" - this thread is about Israeli behaviour - nobody but you and your merry band have in any way attempted to implicate "Jews"; to do so is deeply Antisemitic.
Your arguments might be understandable if you showed the slightest concern at the treatment of Jews, but your defence of British fascism by describing it as "harmless" shows that you don't give a toss - see: 20 Feb 13 - 01:03 PM and 20 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM

"It is very far from being the worst in the world."
So what, Israel is the subject of this thread, not the US, not Turkey, not Pinochet's Chile, not former Yugoslavia, or Haiti.... or any other nation which abuses human rights?
As shown by the Inequality Report, Israel is constitutionally an unequal state that oppresses ethnic minorities, massacres civilians and attempts to move whole communities about like chess pieces to fulfil a racist agenda.
Anyway - must rush - 'The Inequality Report' beckons.   
Jim Carroll
PS BTW I'm still very much enjoying your "fucking liar", but do you think you might make it a little stronger and perhaps add a bit of variation - it's becoming a little repetitive - and it isn't even your own invention, Joe was there first.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:33 AM

you have defended every atrocity committed by Israel that has been mentioned on any of these threads - you have neither qualified nor produced evidence other than Israeli denials

That is another of your lies Jim.
I have never defended any atrocity by anyone.
As if anyone would.

"Qualified"? Yes.
29/7 2010
"The massacres were truly deplorable. Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them. They were disgraced by it.

I do not deny attacks on civilians but Israel does and the evidence is not there. Both sides do lie."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

Your point well made - you have defended Israel's proven part in the massacre by claiming they only "failed to stop it" when in fact they played an active part in it.
On the other hand, you have defended forcibly moving Bedouins onto a poisonous site - an atrocity and described so as the UN.
You have defended the eviction of whole communities to make room for Jewish settlers - a racist crime - an atrocity.
You have attempted to pass of Jenin as "That never happened, it was a lie to discredit Israel," (08 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM") - it may or may not be a massacre, but it certainly happened and the number of civilians killed and homes destroyed, and the fact that it was a refugee camp make it an atrocity.
You have claimed that the Israeli's played no part in Sabra/Shatila and described the slaughtered refugees as "their enemies" in order to justify providing illumination for the massacre - an active part in an atrocity which you defended.
You have defended the deliberate bombing of occupied apartment blocks because resistance fighters might be hiding there - an atrocity.
Your continuous silence on the use of toxic and noxious sprays in order to back up your claim that the Bedouins are treated well in Israel is a defence of atrocities.
Your silence on the destruction of hospitals, schools and homes is defending atrocities.
Want any more - plenty to choose from?
Jim Carroll

ECONOMIC ASSETS: LAND
"• In continuation of a pattern that was established with the founding of the state in 1948, Palestinian citizens of Israel continue to be deprived of access and use of the land under long-standing and more recent land laws and policies. Furthermore, new measures —including a new land reform law from 2009 and an amendment to the Land Ordinance from February 2010 —
aim at confirming state ownership of land confiscated from Palestinians in perpetuity and blocking Palestinian restitution claims.
• Admissions committees operate in around 700 agricultural and community towns and filter out Arab applicants, on the basis of their "social unsuitability", from future residency in these towns. The operation of admissions committees contributes to the institutionalization of racially-segregated towns and villages throughout the state and perpetuates unequal access to the land.
• The Jewish National Fund (JNF) —a body with quasi-state authority that operates solely for the interests of the Jewish people and controls 13% of the land in the state —continues to wield decisive influence over land policy in Israel, having been allocated six of a total of 13 members of the newly-established Land Authority Council.
• Arab towns and villages in Israel suffer from severe overcrowding, with Arab municipalities exercising jurisdiction over only 2.5% of the total area of the state. Since 1948, the State of Israel has established approximately 600 Jewish municipalities, whereas no new Arab village, town or city has ever been built.
• While the Arab Bedouin population in the Naqab stands at around 170,000 persons, or 14% of the total population in the Naqab, the combined areas of the government-planned and newly-recognized Arab Bedouin towns and villages in the Naqab account for just 0.9% of the land in the district.
• Israel is currently intensifying its efforts to forcibly evacuate the unrecognized villages in the Naqab (referred to as "illegal clusters"), including by demolishing entire villages, as recently witnessed in the repeated demolition of the village of Al-Araqib. In pursuing this policy, the state has rejected the option of affording recognition to these villages, many of which predate the establishment of Israel. Between 75,000 and 90,000 Arab Bedouin live in the unrecognized villages in the Naqab, whom the state characterizes as "trespassers on state land".
Inequality Report

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM

Jim,

And your comments about the ARAB Palestinian Homeland of Jordan?

Care to mention the FACT that Jews are prohibited from owning ANY property there, in spite of it being 77% of the Mandate Palestine designated as a Jewish Homeland by treaties ending WW I?

Or is it OK to prohibit Jews, but not limet Moslums?

Care to talk about my Palestinian friends who were driven out of Ramallah in 1948 BECAUSE THEY WERE CHRISTIANS?

O the greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab nations (820,000) than Palestinian Muslims (640,000) that have never been compensated by the Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:37 AM

""yet it is still among the best in the world while its surrounding enemies are among the worst.""

It is still among the best in world at just two things. Annexing territory which belongs to those surrounding enemies, and trading on its perennial "victim" status in a cynical attempt to win the sympathy vote.

There are those who see through that. You don't,....or won't.

As for having criticised Israel, you haven't!

Oh sure, your "they aren't the worst", or "they're still among the best" do nothing more than pay lip service to the fact that they are not perfect.

In no specific instance during this discussion have you failed to leap into a frantic denial based purely on the denials of the Israel propaganda ministry.

You have not accepted a single item of evidence presented to you,in spite of the vanishingly small possibility that everybody who told of Israeli crimes could be part of your imagined world wide conspiracy against Israel.

You even categorise B'Tselem, Israeli Human Rights organisations and Israeli soldiers as anti Israel liars, not to mention Bedouins living under Israeli rule, and any other Arab who dares speak out.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:02 AM

Don.
It is still among the best in world at just two things. Annexing territory which belongs to those surrounding enemies

It can't be that good or it would not still be so ridiculously tiny!

leap into a frantic denial based purely on the denials of the Israel propaganda ministry.

No denials from me, frantic or otherwise.
I just ask for the evidence before I will believe.
I remind you that it is not just me who does not believe.
None of the liberal democracies would be on friendly termes with a nation they believed to be guilty of apartheid, or crimes against humanity, or civilian massacres.
It is just a few hate filled prejudiced fanatics who need no evidence and will believe anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:05 AM

"And your comments about the ARAB Palestinian Homeland of Jordan?"
And your point - isn't Jordan one of Britain's strongest allies in the area and what the **** has any of this got to do with Keith's claim of equal rights for all living in Israel?
Don't know anybody here who has supported Jordan - do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:08 AM

Jim.
Your whole post is utter bollocks as usual, and far to much bollocks to deal with it all yet again.

Just this.
the fact that it was a refugee camp make it an atrocity.

Yes the PLO fighters were guilty of a war crime when they used the camp as a military position.
There was no massacre of civilians even though many lied that they had seen such a thing.
Motive, to harm Israel
Liars like you still peddle those lies for the same reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:12 AM

""I just ask for the evidence before I will believe.
I remind you that it is not just me who does not believe.""

We've covered this crap a dozen times.

You ask for it, it's given to you, you reject it out of hand.

If God told you it as true, you would call him a bigot.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM

There is no unequivocal evidence.
Plenty of "eye witnesses" after the event, but we know that Israel haters lie for political gain.