BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 09:58 AM


Look what happened in Gaza after the Israelis got through with it.

Things got a lot worse for Gazans when they left.

Gazans are still suffering under Israel's despotism.

No. Gazans are suffering under Hamas' fanatical Islamisation and war-mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 09:31 AM

Look what happened in Gaza after the Israelis got through with it.
Look how the settlements in the West Bank have penalized Palestinians in their quest for Statehood.

Gazans are still suffering under Israel's despotism. The Christian Right doesn't care about them. They prefer to see Israel fulfill their warped interpretation of the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:25 AM

Not twaddle Stringy.
Look up what happened in Gaza after Hamas took over.

Jim, you have sensibly NOT challenged my statement "I know the film does not implicate Israel in Sabra/Shatila or any of the other lies because it would be sensational news and headlines around the world." because you know I am right, as ever.

That is also to accept that the film is irrelevant to all that has gone before on this thread.
Another of your changes of subject.
You said that was a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:32 PM

"The Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza have suffered more oppression from their own leaders than they ever did and ever will from Israel."

This is pure propagandistic twaddle. Prove this.

Operation "Cast Lead" and "Pillar of Cloud" would never have been attributed to any of the Palestinian leadership. They simply didn't have that weaponry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:22 PM

"I note that you avoid commenting on the UNHRC report and instead attack the medium that is commenting on it."

And I note that the interpretation by this article which is misleading by a body that is pressured by Israel and the U.S. to be accepted is part of the medium of dissembling.

This, from the Jerusalem Post, "A report that calls for boycotting West Bank settlement products and states that Israel could be brought before the International Criminal Court for Jewish building over the pre-1967 lines was approved Friday by the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva."

What UNHRC actually said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:24 AM

Not just a lie, you called it "A shrieking, gut-wrenching lie"

But I was right, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:01 AM

Jim, you have sensibly NOT challenged my statement "I know the film does not implicate Israel in Sabra/Shatila or any of the other lies because it would be sensational news and headlines around the world." because you know I am right, as ever.

That is also to accept that the film is irrelevant to all that has gone before on this thread.
Another of your changes of subject.
You said that was a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:17 PM

I know the film does not implicate Israel in Sabra/Shatila or any of the other lies because it would be sensational news and headlines around the world.

Are you challenging that statement of mine Jim?
For the record please?

It really is all lies, as all informed, balanced, reasonable people always knew anyway.
Only you Lefties in your bubble believe all that shit.

Ireland and all the other democracies will not be breaking off relations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:45 PM

Jim,

YOU stated :
"which states have massacred 3,500 refugees? "



"Up to 15,000 Palestinian militants and civilians were killed, swaths of Palestinian towns and refugee camps, where the PLO had massed weapons, leveled, the PLO leadership decimated, and between 50,000 and 100,000 people were left homeless. Arab regimes criticized Hussein for what they called "overkill.""


http://middleeast.about.com/od/jordan/a/jordan-black-september.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:36 PM

"And now you can make as many posts about that as about the Lebanese killing refugees in the camps."
Why this has nothing to do with anything here
Can you produce links to your claims?
"I know the film does not implicate Israel"
No you don't and yes irt does, it is an expose of Israeli war crimes from the mouths of those who committed them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

Jim,

"which states have massacred 3,500 refugees? "

Palestinians:
Jordan
Palestinians: How many Palestinians were killed by Jordan?
1 Comment

Husam Aldahiyat, Some dude.
You mean in Black September?

Arafat said 20,000. Real number is between 3,000 and 5,000.


And now you can make as many posts about that as about the Lebanese killing refugees in the camps...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:19 PM

I cannot explain or imagine by what confusion I was led so to misrepresent Don's position. My profound apologies to him, and to all followers of the thread.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:04 PM

I only got this one.
"Which states have been continually accused of war crimes "

Israel right?

I know the film does not implicate Israel in Sabra/Shatila or any of the other lies because it would be sensational news and headlines around the world.
But no.
It really is all lies, as all informed, balanced, reasonable people always knew anyway.

Ireland and all the other democracies will not be breaking off relations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 12:21 PM

"You have had the reports of the film"
Before you ask how I know what to expect:
"The Gatekeepers: In New Film, Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs Denounce Occupation, Compare Israel to Nazi Germany"
"many states more deserving who are carefully ignored."
Remind us - which states have massacred 3,500 refugees?
Which have been carrying out massacres of civilians for 60 odd years?
Which states have driven nomads onto recognised poisoned sites in order to move Jewish (or any other) culture) settlers onto land occupied for centuries?
Which states have been continually accused of war crimes only to be let off the hook by a US veto?
Which states have deliberately targeted civilian homes claiming there might be terrorists in the neighbourhood?
Which states have used and are still using chemical weapons on non-combatant farmers?
Which states have had their own secret service fess up to these crimes - and much more?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:40 AM

"I do question why you single out Israel for attack "
Why do both of you continually defend war crimes by hiding behind the crimes of others?
"Does the film implicate Israel in any of the lurid accusations from this thread?"
I haven't seen the film yet - will probably do so next week
Can we rely on these claims - presuming you have seen it?
You have had the reports of the film - are the Shin Bet officers lying anti-Semites?
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FILM? If not, what are the bases of your claims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:27 AM

""But Jim, that film by all accounts would appear to support Keith's contention that it is not the people of Israel, but their political & military leaders, against popular opinion, who are responsible for the controversial and unacceptable Israeli actions; which Don keeps attempting to scout with the reiterated assertion that the government was elected by the people. The film seems to confirm a high degree of popular dissent from the governmental and military position, doesn't it?""

Mike, I simply cannot believe that you have just turned my whole input to this thread on its head.

THAT IS A VILE ACTION ON YOUR PART!

I have spent the whole of this thread emphasising that my argument is not, repeat NOT with the Israeli people, who I believe are being railroaded to destruction by ""the "murderous" government and "merciless" military""

Keith, on the other hand posted the following:-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:20 AM

I have no quarrel with the people of Israel, but simply and solely with their murderous government and merciless military.


The government is elected by the people of Israel.
The IDF is the people of Israel.

The first sentence, which I have highlighted, was a copy paste without attribution of my previous post, or rather a snippet out of context as is Keith's wont.

The rest is his comment, and I find it hard to believe that you have sunk so low as to try to reverse our positions.

That's it! I don't mind argument, but I draw the line at libel.

I am out of this cesspit of bigotry and I hope you all enjoy yourselves lying about each other.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:15 AM

I am not offended Don.
I do question why you single out Israel for attack when there are so many states more deserving who are carefully ignored.
Syria has killed seventy thousand Arabs including children in just two years.

It does seem irrational.
I am curious, but not offended.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:06 AM

""-snip- likewise 'concentration camp'' no longer primarily [or even by association more than remotely] refers to where the British banged up the Boer civilians. -snip-""

I can understand that more needs to be said in your case Mike, but I've scant concern for Keith's and Bobad's determination to be offended on behalf of groups to which they do not belong.

You will recall, I'm sure that this phenomenon had a thread of its own not long ago, and it was decided that it wasn't productive of much goodwill, even from those on whose behalf they profess to act.

Concentration camps were newsworthy in Russia, North Vietnam, Cambodia and a host of other countries around the world and named as such in various Media, over a 68 year period, without any adverse comment, so once more we have this "special case" for one country.

How long does that go on?......100 years?......1000 years?.......100000 years?

I meant what I said. Perhaps the way forward is to publish a list of these words and phrases which, in what I see as a double standard, English speakers must never utter in any referrence to Israel and Israel alone.

I am accused of demanding that Israel conform to standards I don't seek from others (which is, incidentally, a lie). Is this not the reverse?

I don't even feel safe in mentioning the word "Jew" on this forum, having had the simple use of the word categorised by the "offended" pair, as anti semitism.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:50 AM

TEL AVIV (Reuters) - U.N. peacekeepers in southern Lebanon have failed to report on Hezbollah guerrilla armaments as required, a senior Israeli official said on Thursday, arguing that Israel could not rely on foreign intervention for its security.
The remarks underscored the conservative strategies of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as instability rocks Israel's neighbors and world powers urge it to roll back its West Bank occupation to make way for Palestinian state.
"Under pressure, a multi-national force is like an umbrella that gets folded up on a rainy day," Yaakov Amidror, Netanyahu's national security adviser, said in a Tel Aviv University speech.
Iranian- and Syrian-backed Hezbollah, Amidror said, has been building its arsenal despite the 35-year presence of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) in its heartland.
"Has Hezbollah avoided bringing any kind of rocket, missile or other arms into southern Lebanon because UNIFIL is there?" he said. Israel believes Hezbollah has amassed 60,000 rockets, including 5,000 with heavy warheads capable of hitting Tel Aviv.
"Under their (UNIFIL) mandate, they cannot stop Hezbollah and confiscate its arms, but they can write a report. There has been no UNIFIL report about any weapon of any Hezbollah person since UNIFIL has existed," Amidror said.
As part of the U.N. ceasefire that ended Israel's inconclusive 2006 war with Hezbollah, UNIFIL's mandate was enhanced to include "assisting" the Lebanese army with keeping guerrilla "personnel, assets and weapons" out of south Lebanon.
UNIFIL spokesman Andrea Tenenti said that since 2006, the U.N. peacekeepers had "not witnessed the entry of any illegal weapons into the UNIFIL area of operations in south Lebanon".
While the border is largely quiet, Israel fears Hezbollah could pound it with rockets in retaliation should it carry out long-threatened strikes on Iran's nuclear sites.
Israel also worries that Hezbollah could obtain advanced weapons, including chemical munitions, from Syria. But the militia has said its current capabilities are sufficient.
In their own breach of the 2006 truce, the Israelis have regularly sent warplanes on surveillance flights over Lebanon.
Israel withdrew from south Lebanon in 2000 after 22 years of occupation, and from the Gaza Strip in 2005 after 38 years of occupation. Armed threats from Hezbollah in the former, and Palestinian Hamas Islamists in the latter, have been cited by Netanyahu as justifying his reluctance to give up the West Bank.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, the Hamas rival who governs in the West Bank, has accused Israel of sabotaging diplomacy by peppering the territory with Jewish settlements and holding up funds for his U.S.-backed administration.
The Israelis question Abbas's ability to govern long-term.
"If there aren't the appropriate security arrangements, it would be better for Israel to go without an accord (with the Palestinians) than to have an accord that will endanger its security and could bring about a situation in which in the next war, Israel will lose," Amidror said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:32 AM

Stringsinger.
More atrocities by Israel

You devalue the term.
No-one was even hurt.

We only have it from a local "activist" that anything happened at all.

"HEBRON, April 3, 2013 (WAFA) – Israeli forces Wednesday attacked a Palestinian funeral in Beit Ummar, a town north of Hebron, according to a local activist.

Yousef Abu Maria, spokesman of the Beit Ommar Popular Committee, told WAFA that Israeli forces attacked the funeral fired tear gas canisters and acoustic bombs at the Palestinians and chased the mourners, leading to confrontations. No injuries were reported."

http://english.wafa.ps/index.php?action=detail&id=22042

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:30 AM

"there is no legitimate justification for this."

"The IDF was allegedly responding to stones which were thrown by some of the assembled mourners."

"The Israeli army said troops fired on Palestinians who threw firebombs at a guard post after dark on Wednesday near Tulkarm, in the northern West Bank."

"The Israeli army also reports that for a third straight day on Thursday, rockets fired from Gaza have struck southern Israel"

So, throwing stones at soldiers, firebombing a guard post and launching rockets at your neighbour are legitimate activities in your mind?


"The latest upsurge in violence comes days ahead of of a scheduled visit by US Secretary of State John Kerry to Jerusalem and Ramallah in an attempt to revive the peace negotiations that broke down in 2010."

Hmmm.....think there might be a connection there with peace loving Hamas wanting to demonstrate how willing they are to discuss peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM

Does the film implicate Israel in any of the lurid accusations from this thread?
No.
All the events portrayed have been known about since they happened.

Nothing in the film has any relevance to the original subject of this thread, or to any of the new subjects Jim changed it to when the original claims against Israel were shown to be groundless lies.

And now you want to discuss a film we can't even see yet.

No lies from me, just desperation from Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:07 AM

"there is no legitimate justification for this."
Or these
Jim Carroll

UN report says Israel could be prosecuted for war crimes over settlements
UN human rights investigators called on Israel on Thursday to halt settlement expansion and withdraw all half a million Jewish settlers from the occupied West Bank, saying that its practices could be subject to prosecution as possible war crimes.
5:09PM GMT 31 Jan 2013
A three-member UN panel said private companies should stop working in the settlements if their work adversely affected the human rights of Palestinians, and urged member states to ensure companies respected human rights.
"Israel must cease settlement activities and provide adequate, prompt and effective remedy to the victims of violations of human rights," Christine Chanet, a French judge who led the inquiry, told a news conference.
The settlements contravened the Fourth Geneva Convention forbidding the transfer of civilian populations into occupied territory and could amount to war crimes that fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC), the United Nations report said.
"To transfer its own population into an occupied territory is prohibited because it is an obstacle to the exercise of the right to self-determination," Chanet said.
In December, the Palestinians accused Israel in a letter to the United Nations of planning to commit what it said were further war crimes by expanding Jewish settlements after the Palestinians won de facto UN recognition of statehood, and said Israel must be held accountable.
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Israel has not cooperated with the probe set up by the Human Rights Council last March to examine the impact of settlements in the territory, including East Jerusalem. Israel says the forum has an inherent bias against it and defends its settlement policy by citing historical and Biblical links to the West Bank.
Israel's foreign ministry swiftly rejected the report as "counterproductive and unfortunate". The Palestine Liberation Organisation welcomed its "principled and candid" findings.
"The only way to resolve all pending issues between Israel and the Palestinians, including the settlements issue, is through direct negotiations without preconditions. Counterproductive measures – such as the report before us, will only hamper efforts to find a sustainable solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict," Israel's Yigal Palmor said.
"The Human Rights Council has sadly distinguished itself by its systematically one-sided and biased approach towards Israel. This latest report is yet another unfortunate reminder of that."
But Hanan Ashrawi, a top PLO official told Reuters: "This is incredible. We are extremely heartened by this principled and candid assessment of Israeli violations ... This report clearly states the Israel is not just violating the 4th Geneva Convention, but places Israel in liability to the Rome Statute under the jurisdiction of the ICC."
The independent UN investigators interviewed more than 50 people who came to Jordan in November to testify about confiscated land, damage to their livelihoods including olive trees, and violence by Jewish settlers, according to the report.
"The mission believes that the motivation behind this violence and the intimidation against the Palestinians as well as their properties is to drive the local populations away from their lands and allow the settlements to expand," it said.
About 250 settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been established since 1967 and they hold an estimated 520,000 settlers, according to the UN report. The settlements impede Palestinian access to water and farm lands.
The settlements were "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination," it said.
Chanet said: "To maintain such a system of segregation you need strict police and army control. It means a lot of checkpoints, violation of freedom of movement, no access to natural resources, demolition of houses and sometimes even destroying the trees."
After the General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians status at the world body, Israel said it would build 3,000 more settler homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem – areas Palestinians wanted for a future state, along with the Gaza Strip.
The UN human rights inquiry said that the International Criminal Court had jurisdiction over the deportation or transfer by the occupying power of its own population into the territory.
Chanet, asked whether the violations constituted war crimes that could be tried at The Hague-based court, said: "These offences are falling into the provision of article 8 of the ICC statutes. Article 8 of the ICC statute is in the chapter of war crimes, that is the answer."
The Palestinian Authority - despite its recently upgraded status - will have many procedural obstacles to overcome before it could argue this case in the Hague and prove Israel guilty of war crimes.
Source: Reuters and Staff

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9839853/UN-report-says-Israel-could-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-over-settlements.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 09:45 AM

there is no legitimate justification for this.


More atrocities by Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:06 AM

"Other claims from you in the past have turned out to be rather variably true,"

You have made a claim. It is up to YOU to give some examples of this. I can find statements of YOURS that I do not agree with- DOES THIS PROVE YOU HAVE LIED?





In the other thread, I stated that I had eyewitness evidence that another poster YOU called a liar was in fact correct. YOU DENIED IT'S VALIDITY.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM

"Does it implicate IDF in Sabra/Shatila?
Does it challenge Israel's version?
Cast Lead?
Anything else we have discussed in this thread?"
Just in case you have forgotten - none of these were part of the original posting - you desperately attempted to the discussion by calling "thread drift" when others brought in Israel's history of war crimes, then joined in heartily by denying that they had never happened and it was all an anti-Semitic or Muslim plot - even accusing the UN of same.
You drifted even further afield by attempting to justify atrocities by pointing to those of other countries and even brought in Ware Rubbish Disposal to justify the forcible eviction of Bedouins to a poisonous dump.
Your somewhat hysterical attempts to censor discussion on proof of Israeli atrocities by those who carried out some of those atrocities   
is a comforting sign that it has struck home - keep up the good work.
As for "losing" anything - you have yet to prove one single thing false here - you haven't even tried - as you said "denial means nothing without proof" (or words to that effect)
As the man in 'Round Midnight said - "your notes are fine, but where's your story?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 06:48 AM

"A shrieking, gut-wrenching change of direction"
A shrieking, gut-wrenching lie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 06:23 AM

"that film by all accounts would appear to support Keith's contention that it is not the people of Israel, but their political & military leaders"
Has this ever been claimed otherwise?
THE ARGUMENTS ON THESE THREADS HAVE BEEN EXCLUSIVELY ABOUT ISRAELI MILITARY AND POLITICAL POLICY, WHICH HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD SINCE JUST AFTER IT WAS OPENED - nowhere has anything been discussed about the people of Israel as a whole other than the actions of some fundamentalist extremists.
In fact it is Keith (and others) have attempted to implicate all Jews in these crimes by describing those who oppose what has happened as "anti-Semitic"
The statements in the film are from a handful of Shin Bet officials, who should know better than they what crimes have been committed.
The film - yet to be released, reflects the official reaction of all who get in their way and points out that they believe it not to be in the interest of Israel.
BTW - I hope nobody is assuming that my link is the script of the film, which is an hour plus documentary – it is the full text of the interview I linked headed "The Gatekeepers: In New Film, Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs Denounce Occupation, Compare Israel to Nazi Germany"
The film has yet to be released generally
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 05:49 AM

Does it implicate IDF in Sabra/Shatila?
No.
Does it challenge Israel's version?
No.
Cast Lead?
No.
Anything else we have discussed in this thread?
No.
Not one single thing.
A shrieking, gut-wrenching change of direction.
A familiar one of your lost argument tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 05:37 AM

But Jim, that film by all accounts would appear to support Keith's contention that it is not the people of Israel, but their political & military leaders, against popular opinion, who are responsible for the controversial and unacceptable Israeli actions; which Don keeps attempting to scout with the reiterated assertion that the government was elected by the people. The film seems to confirm a high degree of popular dissent from the governmental and military position, doesn't it?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 05:16 AM

"The film does not support a single one of the lurid accusations made against Israel, "
You are lying - it talks about summary executions without trial, dropping bombs on occupied houses, planning to blow up The Dome of the rock.
Far from not contradicting Israel's version of events - Israel is now in the middle of carrying out a damage limitation exercise
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/CANDIDLY-SPEAKING-Israel-bashing-in-Israeli-movies
The fact that it was Shin Bet officers revealing the facts confirms them as having happened.
To claim, as you have done that the film contains no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of Israel is a lie
To claim that there has been no evidence presented exposing Israeli atrocities is a lie.
To describe the United Nations as a Muslim Plot is fanaticism in the extreme
To lie in public is stupidity in the extreme.
To try to claim a film containing interviews with Israeli secret agents who admit they have violated international laws and is against Israel's interest as thread drift is utterly pathetic and confirms your non-existent case as being just that.
"So, it is irrelevant to all the discussion"
Keep up the good work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:35 AM

The film does not support a single one of the lurid accusations made against Israel, nor does it contradict in one single way Israel's version of events.

So, it is irrelevant to all the discussion that has gone before, and is just another gut-wrenching change of subject by Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 03:33 AM

The full script
The Gatekeepers: In New Film, Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs Denounce Occupation, Compare Israel to Nazi Germany
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/1/29/the_gatekeepers_in_new_film_ex
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 03:24 AM

The Gatekeepers (film review)

When the final credits began rolling, the audience in the sprawling arthouse theatre sat on, in silence. Dana Rimon, a 23-year-old student, said she felt a "deep need to see the credits in fall, just to double-check that the former head of Shin Bet [the Israeli internal security agency] was actually speaking and I hadn't imagined the whole thing."
Rimon said that she had deliberated for weeks before going to see The Gatekeepers, the Oscar-nominated documentary about Israel's security establishment. She had recently finished her service in the army, where she worked at a training base in the southern West Bank. The film, she worried, would make her feel guilty. Her family urged her to leave well enough alone, but in the end curiosity got the better of her. "I guess I'm glad I came, but I still feel a little shocked, a little breathless," she said. "It was like somebody took over the bodies of all our big military heroes and put some left-wing person there."
Less than a mile away from the Cinemateque theatre in Tel Aviv was the Kiriya, Israel's military headquarters.
Rimon pointed at the towers and helicopter pads. "I can't imagine a movie that would be more subversive to the army guys over there than this one."
Despite its Oscar nomination and glowing reviews in the press, The Gatekeepers has had a limited release and has been shown on public television only once, in a late-evening slot. The documentary weaves the recollections of six former heads of the Shin Bet into a narrative of Israel's military occupation of the Palestinian territories dating back to 1967. In startling detail and honesty,
the men who authorised targeted assassinations against Palestinian terrorists and recruited collaborators to spy on their families and communities tell of the difficulty of having to live with their choices and the doubts that have
arisen since they left their posts.
Dror Moreh, the director, says that he didn't set out to make a movie that challenged Israel's deeply held military ethos. "The timing was right," he says.
"They wanted to come forward and speak of their own accord."
"I knew I had dynamite in my hands," Moreh told the left-wing daily, Haaretz.
In other interviews, the director has admitted that he had no idea that his subjects would emerge with a shared conviction that Israel's continued military occupation of the Palestinian territories will lead neither to peace nor to a longstanding political solution for the state of Israel.
"The idea that we shouldn't be in the West Bank, that Israel even has an occupation of the Palestinian people is a very fringe, left-wing idea in Israel," says Daniel Levy, a 31-year-old lawyer in Tel Aviv. "If you said it at my dinner table my dad would accuse you of being a socialist lefty and probably ask you to leave."
Still, Levy went to see the movie with his 74-year-old father David on a Saturday afternoon last month. When the two emerged the elder Levy said he was "more sad then angry. When you hear what they have to say you wonder 'How could we have let them lead us down this path?' I just don't know."
Haaretz has reported that Israeli diplomats are trying to deal with the fallout from the film, which remains popular on the foreign film circuit. In cables sent back to the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem, the diplomats debated whether the film was at its core anti-Israel. The newspaper noted that the same debate was not happening inside Israel.
David Levy recalls one particularly vivid moment in the film, when Ami Ayalon, who ran the Shin Bet from 1996 to 2000, looks straight into the camera and quotes the military theorist Carl von Clausewitz: "Victory is the creation of a better political reality."
"Why couldn't he have said it when he was still head of the Shin Bet?" Levy says. "Then maybe more people would have listened."
The Gatekeepers is released on April 12

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:17 AM

Indeed, Don, you did not use that word, so apologies so far as that goes. You will perhaps gather I suspected this to be the case on second thoughts, which was why I added the rider about the other phrase, which, whatever may have been its origins, is just as unacceptable, and for similar reasons. After all, 'holocaust' didn't always mean killing lots of Jews in nasty ways; it originally meant a large & particularly elaborate form of sacrifice to the gods; but you obviously agree that it has, by its later associations, come to be inapplicable in that particular: likewise 'concentration camp'' no longer primarily [or even by association more than remotely] refers to where the British banged up the Boer civilians. So my horror & disappointment at your use of it in this context, and my contempt for your sarcastic and irritably dismissive animadversions about 'ruffled feathers' & accusations of our attempts to pre-empt the English languages to our own use, remain as I previously expressed. I really think you should withdraw that assiciative phrase with more grace than you have done thus far.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:32 PM

"Perhaps I should have known Bobad would throw a hissy fit."

Oh don't be such a drama queen Don, I am only trying to sensitize you to the sensitivities of the Jewish community in general and of other non-Jews like myself who otherwise sympathize with them, to the terminology of one of the most sordid chapters of modern history. A sizable percentage of the civilized world seems to be aware of the implications associated such usage - I am surprised that you are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM

""And this ONLY applies to Israel, and NOT to Obama? YOU stated that MY actually having heard Obama state something was NOT valid, and required further proof before YOU would consider it worth looking at.""

That was intended to check your veracity (not Obama's), by asking for a link to the speech (I'm assuming that you weren't reporting private conversations), so that I could decide to accept or reject it.

You would have reason to climb on your high horse, had I simply said "Other claims from you in the past have turned out to be rather variably true, so I don't believe you", which is what Keith is doing by ignoring the links we do supply and blanking the witnesses.

Check it out for yourself. You'll find it's true!   But that's not what you want to find, is it?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:16 PM

""It is a word with emotional overtones which one does not need 'super-sensitive feathers' to be 'ruffled' in order to recognise. I am, frankly, astonished & disappointed at your having employed it.""

Get this Mike! I did not use, and never have used that word in discussion, except when talking about its deniers.

I described Gaza as a concentration camp, fairly accurate I think, knowing that such camps were a Boer War invention of our own dear countrymen.

Perhaps I should have known Bobad would throw a hissy fit.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 01:57 PM

'you really don't like those ""nasty Islamic Republics", do you?'
.,,.
All v well to get knickers in a twist over Keith's use of this phrase; which perhaps indeed he might on reflection think maybe a bit ill-considered, esp as it was bound to elicit just such a knee-jerk pejorative reaction. But do you really think Muslim N Nigeria, where a 16 year old girl recently publicly received 100 strokes of the cane on the bare buttocks for the heinous crime of conceiving as a result of being raped, or Muslim Saudi Arabia, where adultresses [which has a wider sense than marital infidelity, meaning any out-of-wedlock copulation] may still be publicly stoned to death, to be 'nice' countries?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:37 AM


The government no more does what the people want than our own does.

The army is an organisation recruited from among the people, which does exactly what the government (not the people) tells it to.

It is not recruited from among the people.
The people all do their share of service in IDF, and the government is freely elected by the people.

The enemies of Israel have to lie to create Israel's crimes, because it just does not commit real ones.
Only fools and bigots believe it all.

Not UK government or any other mature well informed modern democracy.
Not, Ireland, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Australia, the EU, ....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:47 AM

Sorry, cross posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:46 AM

MtheGm, to be fair to Don I was castigating him for referring to Gaza as "a twenty first Century Concentration Camp" which I regard as a thinly veiled Nazi allusion just as is the use of the word "holocaust".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:39 AM

... and 'concentration camp' is in the same category. We all know that it originated in the Boer War; but don't pretend you are unaware of the additional overtone it has acquired since then. It doesn't mean Pietermaritzburg and Bloemfontein any more; it means Auschwitz and Belsen, & please don't be disingenuous enough to pretend you weren't aware of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:39 AM

Don,

"The group with evidence damaging to Israel is no more, or less, likely to be truthful than any other group.

So, logic demands that you examine their evidence and attempt to check its veracity, rather than dismiss it out of hand as "lies", "anti Israel", or "antsemitic".
"


And this ONLY applies to Israel, and NOT to Obama? YOU stated that MY actually having heard Obama state something was NOT valid, and required further proof before YOU would consider it worth looking at.

You are showing your bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:34 AM

"God Almighty! Would you Israeli apologists like to tell us how much of the English language we are still allowed to use without ruffling your super sensitive feathers?"

Thin ice, Don! Remember that the following statement

"it is recognised that trying to equate Israel with Nazi crimes identifies an antisemite"

is from an EU body, the EUMC [European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism & Xenophobia], not from any organisation with any sort of Jewish bias. "Holocaust" is not a term to be used in this context, as Bobad notes above that I have pointed out on more than one occasion previously. It is a word with emotional overtones which one does not need 'super-sensitive feathers' to be 'ruffled' in order to recognise. I am, frankly, astonished & disappointed at your having employed it. Not what I should have expected of you. And as for the insufferably inappropriate tone of offended resentment in the response from you which opens this post...!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:10 AM

""The government is elected by the people of Israel.
The IDF is the people of Israel.""

Sophistry! And very weak sophistry at that.

The government no more does what the people want than our own does.

The army is an organisation recruited from among the people, which does exactly what the government (not the people) tells it to.

Nice to see you squirming a bit.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:06 AM

As well as Egypt and the Arab League, that prevents the Palestinian Muslims from settling in other Arab nations, as the GREATER NUMBER of Jewish Arabs were resettled in Israel after 1948... "without any support or compensation" from the countries they were evicted from.


And from the percentage of Arab Muslims REMAINING in Israel ( as opposed to the percentage of Jews in Arab nations) I think that "eviction" is a word YOU need to justify before using. MORE Muslims STAYED in Israel than left.

Jews were driven out of Arab nations BY THE GOVERNMENTS. Arab Moslims left Israel BY CHOICE, after the Arab League promised them the entire land "Afeter the Jews are driven into the sea."


And how about the Jews "removed" from the West Bank between 1948 and 1967? Were is THEIR compensation? Or is it your contention that Palestinian Jews get nothing, when demanding the Palestinian Muslims get everything they want? What about the Palestinian Christians, driven out by the Muslims?

Your focus demonstrates a bias.


I ask again:


As I said, what portion of the REMAINING Mandate Palestine territory should be given to the Arab Muslims after they got over 77% in the form of a Jew-Free Arab Palestinian Homeland of TransJordan?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM

""Yes I have.
I linked to reports of the faked massacre at Jenin, with all the eye witness accounts revealed to be blatant lies told by Israel's enemies for political purpose.
We have Stringsinger's lies in his OP.
I have previously provided evidence that no bodies were thrown off the Marmara, despite all the lying eye witnesses including nurses who reported it.
There have been faked casualties, a faked killing on the gaza border, and on and on.""

OK, Three instances.

Vague claims without detail don't add anything and ""on and on"" is nonsense.

You have three instances I can concede, and from those you extrapolate that no eye witness can be considered credible, and all must be lying.

The police forces of the World will be devastated when they hear that they've got to release all those criminals convicted on eye witness testimony.

You see Keith, that's what happens when you extrapolate from a stupid premise.

Logically you cannot, because one, or one hundred witnesses have turned out to be part of a conspiracy, simply dismiss witnesses entirely without examination of their individual evidence.

Nor can you separate witnesses into groups by whom they witness against.

The group with evidence damaging to Israel is no more, or less, likely to be truthful than any other group.

So, logic demands that you examine their evidence and attempt to check its veracity, rather than dismiss it out of hand as "lies", "anti Israel", or "antsemitic".

This you have not done at any time in this discussion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM

"OK!! Gaza is an Israeli open prison. IS THAT BETTER?"

I'll agree that Gaza is a prison but the population is held captive not by the Israelis but by the avowed goals and actions of it's own "freely" elected government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:29 AM

""You need to substantiate why you describe Israel's elected government as "murderous."   ""

Who do YOU think ordered the IDF into Gaza, ordered the shooting of civilians approaching the border, ordered air strikes which killed masses of civilians, ordered the destruction of Centuries old olive groves and the eviction without any support or compensation, of Palestinins in the West Bank, to make space for Israeli settlers?

You're biased to the max, but you're not totally stupid. You know damn well that huge numbers of innocent men women and children have died as a result of the above.

You know also, because it is incontrovertible public record, that every time Israel responds to an attack the kill rate is around ten Palestinians for every Israeli.

Still think "murderous" is too strong!   You would get quite a lot of argument!

Don T.