BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:15 AM

""Goldstone withdrew the report's most serious claim that the Israeli Defense Forces intentionally targeted civilians""

I'd love to know why he changed his mind, when a whole bunch of Israeli soldiers reported exactly the same, which we posted and you ignored in an earlier Gaza thread.

What did AIPAC threaten him with, I wonder?   We've heard all this before. It's becoming a habit.

Don't like History?    OK rewrite it!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:09 AM

""Yeah right, just like the use of the term "holocaust". I believe all that has been thoroughly and sensitively covered by MtheGM in this and previous threads - you must have been absent for those lessons.""

God Almighty!       Would you Israeli apologists like to tell us how much of the English language we are still allowed to use without ruffling your super sensitive feathers?

You are so bloody paranoid, you see Nazis under every bush and Nazi allusions in every comment by anybody who isn't of that nationality I am not safe in naming, for fear you pounce on it with claims of antsemitism.

OK!! Gaza is an Israeli open prison. IS THAT BETTER?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:20 AM

I have no quarrel with the people of Israel, but simply and solely with their murderous government and merciless military.


The government is elected by the people of Israel.
The IDF is the people of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:19 PM


You have never, so that we might see for ourselves, linked to their ""numerous cases of blatant lying"", which of course, as Jim repeatedly points out are mostly made up by you.

Yes I have.
I linked to reports of the faked massacre at Jenin, with all the eye witness accounts revealed to be blatant lies told by Israel's enemies for political purpose.
We have Stringsinger's lies in his OP.
I have previously provided evidence that no bodies were thrown off the Marmara, despite all the lying eye witnesses including nurses who reported it.
There have been faked casualties, a faked killing on the gaza border, and on and on.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:08 PM


""Don, can you substantiate "murderous government and merciless military.""

I don't need to Keith.

You know about the ongoing encroachment into the West Bank, which you refuse to discuss, while claiming Australia as germane to the issue.

Yes you do Don.
"encroachment" if justified at all, is not murder.
You need to substantiate why you describe Israel's elected government as "murderous."

"merciless" is vague, but it suggests breaking International Law of Armed conflict.
That requires substantiation.

If either claim were true, countries like Australia, Canada, Ireland, Denmark, Finland, EU, would not be on suuch warm, friendly terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:59 PM

I think I just substantiated the word "murderous" I applied to the Israeli government and the word "merciless", used by me to describe the IDF!

No you have not Don.
Much of it is about Egypt.
The stuff about Cast Lead is the usual bollocks.
This from the author of the UN report.

In April 2011, Justice Goldstone wrote an op-ed in The Washington Post stating: "If I
had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different
document." In the op-ed, "Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war
crimes," Goldstone withdrew the report's most serious claim that the Israeli Defense
Forces intentionally targeted civilians during their operations in Gaza. The op-ed further
commended Israel's investigations into charges of abuse. As Justice Goldstone
concluded, "the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the UN
committee's report…indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of
policy."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:51 PM

"There is no Nazi allusion here (except in your minds)"

Yeah right, just like the use of the term "holocaust". I believe all that has been thoroughly and sensitively covered by MtheGM in this and previous threads - you must have been absent for those lessons.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:46 PM

""Chomsky should stick to linguistics where he has some credibility.""

There you go again, every eye witness a liar, or lacking credibility, even if he's a native, unless he supports the Israeli government's oppression of Palestine.

I'm tired of you and getting terminally BORED!

More tomorrow.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:41 PM

""BTW, nice way to slip in the Nazi allusion with your concentration camp comment""

You Israeli apologists are either totally paranoid, or incredibly devious,....or BOTH!

There is no Nazi allusion here (except in your minds) since, as you already know, Concentration Camps were the invention of my own countrymen, the British, during the Boer War, and, like it or not Gaza IS a de facto concentration camp.

I deliberately avoided the G word, to which you would have had a valid objection.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:36 PM

Chomsky should stick to linguistics where he has some credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:33 PM

Getting away from Keith and Boba's nonsense for a moment, into the real world, the following is the gist of Noam Chomsky's column. I know String gave a link, but I know also that Keith never reads them through.

""Gaza, which I was able to visit for the first time last October.
There violence is met by the steady resistance of the "samidin" – those who endure, to borrow Raja Shehadeh's evocative term in "The Third Way," his memoir on Palestinians under occupation, 30 years ago.
Greeting me on my return home were the reports of the Israeli assault on Gaza in November, supported by the United States and tolerated politely by Europe as usual.
Israel isn't Gaza's only adversary. Gaza's southern border remains largely under the control of Egypt's dreaded secret police, the Mukhabarat, which credible reports link closely to the CIA and the Israeli Mossad.
Just last month a young Gaza journalist sent me an article describing the Egyptian government's latest assault on the people of Gaza.
A network of tunnels into Egypt is a lifeline for Gazans imprisoned under harsh siege and constant attack. Now the Egyptian government has devised a new way to block the tunnels: flooding them with sewage.
Meanwhile the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem reports on a new device that the Israeli army is using to counter the weekly nonviolent protests against Israel's illegal Separation Wall – in reality an Annexation Wall.
The samidin have been ingenious in coping with tear gas so the army has escalated, spraying protesters and homes with jets of a liquid as noxious as raw sewage.
These attacks provide more evidence that great minds think alike, combining criminal repression with humiliation.
The tragedy of Gaza traces back to 1948, when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled in terror or were forcibly expelled to Gaza by conquering Israeli forces.
Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion held that "The Arabs of the Land of Israel have only one function left to them – to run away."
It is noteworthy that today the strongest support for Israel in the international arena comes from the United States, Canada and Australia, the so-called Anglosphere – settler-colonial societies based on extermination or expulsion of indigenous populations in favor of a higher race, and where such behavior is considered natural and praiseworthy.
For decades Gaza has been a showcase for violence of every kind. The record includes such carefully planned atrocities as Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009 – "infanticide," as it was called by Norwegian physicians Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse, who worked at Gaza's al-Shifa Hospital with their Palestinian and Norwegian colleagues through the criminal assault. The word is apt, considering the hundreds of children massacred.
Violence ranges through just about every kind of cruelty that humans have used their higher mental faculties to devise, up to the pain of exile.
The pain is particularly stark in Gaza, where older people can still look across the border toward the homes from which they were driven – or could if they were able to approach the border without being killed.""

I think I just substantiated the word "murderous" I applied to the Israeli government and the word "merciless", used by me to describe the IDF!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:31 PM

"if you are Arab or Muslim,"

Well those are the neighbours who waged war on them, I'm pretty sure the outcome would have been the same had they been Christians or Druids.

BTW, nice way to slip in the Nazi allusion with your concentration camp comment - I'm sure it is much appreciated by those who had the pleasure to enjoy the hospitality of the real concentration camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:23 PM

""There is a lesson to be learned here - can you tell us what it is?""

Simple!

Upset the Israeli government, and if you are Arab or Muslim, they will never let up until you are crushed out of existence.

Even a bulldog or a Rotweiler will let go eventually. Not so Israel!

Well, you did ask!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:18 PM

""Don, can you substantiate "murderous government and merciless military.""

I don't need to Keith.

You know about the ongoing encroachment into the West Bank, which you refuse to discuss, while claiming Australia as germane to the issue.

If you could bring yourself to open eyes and mind at the same time and look at Gaza, you would see clearly a twenty first Century Concentration Camp.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:11 PM

""So far you ask us to believe so called eye witnesses when numerous cases of blatant lying make them highly equivocal.""

That is a lie!

We ask you to consider the evidence of eye witnesses, not "so-called", that is the epithet you apply to those people, without evidence, so that you can make an entirely unsupported assessment (with the emphasis on the ass) as liars.

You have never, so that we might see for ourselves, linked to their ""numerous cases of blatant lying"", which of course, as Jim repeatedly points out are mostly made up by you.

We give you accredited sources! You paint them antisemitic.
We give you documented eye witness accounts! You paint them liars.
We give you Israeli witnesses! You ignore them.

And you have predictably, boringly and futilely just done the same again.

Must try harder.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:07 PM

So Don, I give you one example of territory being annexed by the victors of war and there have been countless others throughout history. I do not say that this is a good or bad thing only that this is what happens when a country wages war on it's neighbours - realpolitik if you will. There is a lesson to be learned here - can you tell us what it is?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:52 PM

Don, can you substantiate "murderous government and merciless military."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:44 PM

""Again is it because of the nationality of the victors, huh Don?""

FFS, climb down off that dead horse you fool, before it falls on you and hurts you.

I have lost count of the number of times I have answered that I have no quarrel with the people of Israel, but simply and solely with their murderous government and merciless military.

I am in a better position to question your motives.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM

Stringsinger, I do not believe that my race or my religion should be an issue and I resent your line of questioning.


Keith, are you a right-wing Christian who supports Israel because of a biblical injunction?
I think it's only fair to ask this. You don't sound to me as though you are Jewish.

I do not believe that anything before WW2 has any relevance to this issue.
I am not Jewish.
I am an Anglican.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM

Substantiate ""Egypt is worse"" and ""Syria is worse"" (MY, you really don't like those ""nasty Islamic Republics, do you?"", and explain just how you see that as a justification of anything Israel does to Palestinians or its indigenous Bedouins.

I provided extensive substantiation of the worse status of Bedouin in Egypt, and of Syria's worse invasion and occupation of Lebanon, and that Assad kills a thousand Arabs a month.

I do not claim it as justification.
I point it out to show how you people swingle out Israel for criticism while carefully ignoring the far worse abuses from the surrounding countries.

I point it out to put Israel alleged shortcomings into perspective.

I point it out to show your irrational prejudice against the people of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:21 PM

General Assembly

"By 2007, Israel was the subject of 76% of country-specific General Assembly resolutions,[87] 36% of resolutions from the Human Rights Council[88] and 7% of the Security Council resolutions.[89]

The automatic majority enjoyed by the pro-Palestinian resolutions was described in the following terms:


Tal Becker, legal advisor to Israel's permanent mission to the UN, visualizes this anti-Israel voting bloc as a series of "concentric circles." The smallest of the circles is the core of twenty Arab nations that constitute what is known as the "Arab group" which initiates the harshest condemnations of Israel. These countries are part of the larger fifty-six-member "Moslem group", all of whom can be counted on to consistently support anti-Israel resolutions. These fifty-six nations represent part of the Non-Aligned group of 115 largely third-world nations that formed during the Cold War and generally have voted as a group independent of Soviet or U.S. influence. And an even larger circle, considered the standard lineup against Israel, is composed of the 133 members of the G-77, which includes all of the developing countries.[90]

A few countries have consistently supported Israel's actions in the UN, such as the United States of America and the states of Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and Palau all of which are associated states of the U.S. Recently Australia, under the leadership of John Howard, and Canada, under the leadership of Stephen Harper, have also supported Israel at the UN.

Many European countries usually adopt a neutral stance, abstaining from the ongoing condemnations of Israel and supporting the foundation of a Palestinian state. Such countries include France, Russia, and Germany. "

"Regional Groups

The United Nations Regional Groups were created in 1961. From the onset, the majority of Arab countries within the Asia group blocked the entry of Israel in that group. Thus, for 39 years, Israel was one of the few countries without membership to a regional group and could not participate in most UN activities. On the other hand, Palestine was admitted as a full member of the Asia group on April 2, 1986.[note 1]

In 2000, Israel was admitted to the Western European and Others Group (WEOG) but Israel's membership is limited to activities at the UN's New York City headquarters. Elsewhere, Israel is an observer, not a full member, in WEOG discussions and consultations. Therefore, Israel cannot participate in UN talks on human rights, racism and a number of other issues.[100][101] The Human Rights Council meets in Geneva, UNESCO in Paris."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:00 PM

Substantiate that "Israel denies that" outweighs all evidence to the contrary.
I can not. It is not true and I would never claim it.
If Israel does deny an accusation, evidence is required.
So far you ask us to believe so called eye witnesses when numerous cases of blatant lying make them highly equivocal.

Substantiate that ""All the motions were proposed by nasty Islamic Republics and vicious little dictatorships who outnumber the decent democracies,"" (Islamophobia clearly displayed)

Here are hundreds of examples from UNHCR.
Note the sponsors, and click to see who voted yes.
http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.3820041/#4th

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:38 AM

""What would you have had them do? Go back after all that to the 1948 UN Resolution borders and then sit and wait for all their nice new neighbours to have another go? Oh, come on!...""
That was then, this is now; 65 years later.
So take a look at the size of Israel today, and compare with the twominiscule areas to which are confined the Arabs who used to occupy most of it.
Add in the fact that Israel has been annexing the larger of the two, considerably reducing the Arab land without authority or the excuse of conquest.
Some redress of balance is essential if the Palestinians are not to be squeezed out of existence, wouldn't you agree.

Of course I would agree. I have condemned the Israeli expansionism a dozen times here ~~ tho for some reason Jim will never listen. But I was replying, Don, to this of yours ~~


The last time any firm borders were established by anyone who possessed the authority to do so, was 1948.
The decision was made, and since that time Israel has gained territory by conquest and is continuing to do so by annexation.
Why should you NOT accept reversion to THOSE borders?
After all they are, whoever has or has not accepted them, the last legally established ones.

to point out that it was the refusal of the neighbouring Arab states to accept these borders when the new Israeli state was perfectly prepared to do so, that is responsible ultimately for the present lamentable behaviour by the Israelis -- coupled, of course, with the refusal of those very Arab states, enormous as they are, to integrate those Palestinian Arabs who fled to them at the time as a result of their actions, not those of the Israelis; in marked contrast to the way that the minute state of Israel has integrated a vastly greater number of Jewish immigrants over the period.

It may all be a long time ago, Don; but all but two of those Arab states have insisted thruout those years, and up to the present, that they are still at war with Israel; and have only been deterred from acting on this insistence by the knowledge that they could now, & at any time in the interim, have got their arses kicked a good bit harder than they did 65 years ago, by the then small but now maybe just a bit more powerful & knowing lot which they tried, so pathetically, to bully then.

Look at the situation over the whole of that 65 years, right up to the present, Don, if you hope to achieve any sort of balanced view of the present unfortunate situation; and put the original blame for it where it properly belongs.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:11 AM

Here's an honest report on the atrocities that Israel has committed.
The nationality of the victors is no excuse for violence, slavery, oppression and imprisonment.

Chomsky gets it right.

Bobad, when you say that the Palestinians have been more victimized by their own leaders than by Israel, you offer no proof. This is not true.

Keith, are you a right-wing Christian who supports Israel because of a biblical injunction?
I think it's only fair to ask this. You don't sound to me as though you are Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:02 AM

"That's a bit desperate isn't it? Shifting the goalposts back to WW1"

""Um, no......ever hear of Pomerania, Silesia, East Prussia - WWII""


Forgot this part did you Don?

Again is it because of the nationality of the victors, huh Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:53 AM

""Um, no......ever hear of Pomerania, Silesia, East Prussia - WWII and North Schleswig, Alsace-Lorraine, West Prussia, Upper Silesia - WWI?""

That's a bit desperate isn't it? Shifting the goalposts back to WW1 which everybody knows was a clusterfuck.

If they hadn't done that then, Hitler would not have had a grievance on which to hang his hat, and arguably Israel would not now exist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:45 AM

"I was waiting for that.

They got it back in 1989, that's 44 years."

Um, no......ever hear of Pomerania, Silesia, East Prussia - WWII and North Schleswig, Alsace-Lorraine, West Prussia, Upper Silesia - WWI?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:43 AM

""I can substantiate everything I have posted, but we are well past a thousand posts.
Identify, if you can, something that requires substantiation.""

Every bit I'm afraid, since you haven't attempted to do so before.

However, it won't be too bad, since you have used a small number of excuses and denials, in lieu of evidence and there is no sign that you even know how to link to sources.

Substantiate that "Israel denies that" outweighs all evidence to the contrary.

Substantiate that ""All the motions were proposed by nasty Islamic Republics and vicious little dictatorships who outnumber the decent democracies,"" (Islamophobia clearly displayed)

Substantiate ""Egypt is worse"" and ""Syria is worse"" (MY, you really don't like those ""nasty Islamic Republics, do you?"", and explain just how you see that as a justification of anything Israel does to Palestinians or its indigenous Bedouins.

That'll do for a start. I'd enjoy seeing you try to do it.

Don T.

P.S. But you won't! You'll obfuscate wildly as always.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:18 AM

""Don, how does it make me an "Islamophobe" and a "white supremacist" to point out that none of those anti-Israel motions were supported by liberal democracies?""

It doesn't my slippery friend, but go back and read what you actually said and how you expressed it, which bears zero resemblance to your protestation above.

Admit what you really said, or I will post it for you, with suitable comment.

You are the most devious person currently posting here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:10 AM

""What would you have had them do? Go back after all that to the 1948 UN Resolution borders and then sit and wait for all their nice new neighbours to have another go? Oh, come on!...""

That was then, this is now; 65 years later.

So take a look at the size of Israel today, and compare with the twominiscule areas to which are confined the Arabs who used to occupy most of it.

Add in the fact that Israel has been annexing the larger of the two, considerably reducing the Arab land without authority or the excuse of conquest.

Some redress of balance is essential if the Palestinians are not to be squeezed out of existence, wouldn't you agree.

And if not, are you happy with slow attritional genocide.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 09:56 AM

""Germany lost territory after WWII - that is the cost of waging war on your neighbours.""

I was waiting for that.

They got it back in 1989, that's 44 years. Should Palestine suffer greater punishment at the hands of the Germans' victims, for a quantum leap lesser crime?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 09:44 AM

""The Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza have suffered more oppression from their own leaders than they ever did and ever will from Israel.""

Do you, Bobad, genuinely believe that is a justification of the oppression by Israel.

If the answer is yes, you are a raving homicidal lunatic. If no, it is an excuse, and irrelevant.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:17 PM

Stringsinger. Keith, that's your opinion.
No. I gave no opinion. I stated that you made comparison between Israel and the Nazis, and that according to European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)it is recognised that trying to equate Israel with Nazi crimes identifies an antisemite.

Don, how does it make me an "Islamophobe" and a "white supremacist" to point out that none of those anti-Israel motions were supported by liberal democracies?
I was not changing any subject when I posted about Ireland, Australia, Finland, Denmark and EU.
It was a reply to Jim's claim that it was only me who believed Israel.

Not one statement of Ellen Siegel contradicts Israel.
Both are self consistent.

I can substantiate everything I have posted, but we are well past a thousand posts.
Identify, if you can, something that requires substantiation.
Jim could not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:16 PM

Don: You are very largely right in all you say. But do recall that it was not the new state of Israel that rejected the 1948 borders, which they were perfectly willing to accept and establish themselves within; it was their Arab neighbours ~~ 5 countries ~~ who refused to allow them any of the land but tried to take it all by conquest, with 5 full fighting forces coming in from 5 different directions. They were repelled by a smaller but more dedicated force; and Israel then settled in the land it had thus gained. What would you have had them do? Go back after all that to the 1948 UN Resolution borders and then sit and wait for all their nice new neighbours to have another go? Oh, come on!...

The present situation derives from the Arab nations' intransigence then; their refusal to accept a decision voted for overwhelmingly [ie by all except the Muslim bloc] by the international body of which they were all members (apart from Transjordan) and whose decisions they were accordingly pledged to abide by.. The Israelis are still insecure as the result of that trauma; which doesn't excuse the way they go on nowadays, for which, as you know I have absolutely no sympathy; but might, to anyone with an iota of empathy, go at least some way to explain it.

It is obvious that you retrospectively disapprove of that UN resolution, & probably think the Jews settled there should have been allowed nothing. But it really is a bit late for that, even if there might conceivably be some virtue in such a view, which would be, to put it at its highest, highly debatable.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:58 PM

"Territory gained was all on their side and they've held on to it for over forty five years."

Germany lost territory after WWII - that is the cost of waging war on your neighbours. Is your problem with Israel the nationality of the victors?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:48 PM

"Bobad, tell that to West Bank and Gaza."

The Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza have suffered more oppression from their own leaders than they ever did and ever will from Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:36 PM

Nice try President Obama but.........................

Bobad, tell that to West Bank and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM

""I am using the LAST set of borders that the Arab League had agreed to, in 1922-1923. THEY HAVE NOT ACCEPTED ANY OTHERS_: Why should I use them???""

The last time any firm borders were established by anyone who possessed the authority to do so, was 1948.

The decision was made, and since that time Israel has gained territory by conquest and is continuing to do so by annexation.

Why should you NOT accept reversion to THOSE borders?

After all they are, whoever has or has not accepted them, the last legally established ones.

The fact that it was not Israel who started hostilities is a bit of a red herring. Territory gained was all on their side and they've held on to it for over forty five years.

Israel is in no genuine danger from a bunch of third world primitives, given the disparity in military might.

Aggression hasn't stopped Gazan resistance, maybe returning what was taken and freeing up Gaza and the West Bank will.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:12 PM

""So why not a single word of criticism of Syria from all of you?""

In case it has escaped your notice, this thread is about Israel, and in the course of it you have introduced Australia, Finland, Denmark, Egypt and Syria, then accused Jim of changing the subject.

Yet you refused to countenance any discussion of the piecemeal annexation of the West Bank, much more germane to the issue.

Your attitude is devious and manipulative and your understanding of debate and evidence is appallingly poor.

If you are concerned about Syria, start a thread and we'll discuss it, as long as you stop accusing us of the things you do wrong yourself.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:04 PM

DonT,

I am using the LAST set of borders that the Arab League had agreed to, in 1922-1923. THEY HAVE NOT ACCEPTED ANY OTHERS_: Why should I use them???


As I said, what portion of the REMAINING Mandate Palestine territory should be given to the Arab Muslims after they got over 77% in the form of a Jew-Free Arab Palestinian Homeland of TransJordan?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:54 PM

""Still waiting on the answer to my question:

How much of Israel should Palestinians get to steal?""

Perhaps steal isn't the best word for regaining the part of their country which wasn't arbitrarily awarded to Israel in 1948.

Or regaining the part occupied and kept by Israel in 1967.

Israel's point of view isn't the only one. Nor is it the only one that counts.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:23 PM

""The three Clinton vetoes brought to 32 the number Washington has cast to protect Israel."
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html""

Thirty two US vetoes and Keith called me a liar when I said there were any. I guess it's now obvious which of us is a liar (if it wasn't already blindingly obvious).
______________________________________________________________________

""Had there been none, it would still have been reasonable to go in and check.""

So you would say that the phalangists checked all those civilians to death?
______________________________________________________________________

""All the motions were proposed by nasty Islamic Republics and
vicious little dictatorships who outnumber the decent democracies,""

And there, the veneer having slipped, we see the real nasty little Islamophobe.
______________________________________________________________________

""Proper democracies, with a free and informed press and media, know that all the ant-Israel shit is just that.

The lies you peddle are recognised as just that, outside your little bubble of bigots.""

See the above comment! He'd be a wow at the White Supremacists' Convention.
______________________________________________________________________

""Eyewitness statements ARE NOT VALID EVIDENCE, according to DonT.""

Don't be any more of a fuckwit than you can help BB, you know damn well that is a misquote of what I said.

One unsupported eye witness statement is evidence but proves nothing in court.

You need at least two for it to be proof.

Added to which I most certainly was not referring to the Sabra/Shatila eye witnesses.

There are more than enough of them for proof, if we could only get past the fundamentalist pro Israelis who shout everyone else down (or try to).
______________________________________________________________________
""I make up nothing.
I can substantiate everything and keep offering to.

You know this, so you can only repeat the lie.""

DON'T OFFER! Bloody well do it. Otherwise it's just empty bluster.

Yuo CAN'T substantiate any of it. You can only repeat and repeat the output of the Israeli propaganda machine.

Not enough.

I ask you to comment on the Bedouins who have been uprooted three times, and in spite of being told that the third place was permanent, now face a fourth upheaval, and you respond with waffle about trade with Australia

BLOODY IRRELEVANT!

So yes SUBSTANTIATE or shut up.
______________________________________________________________________

""Israel Zamir, the son of Nobel Prize-winner Isaac Bashevis-Singer, wrote: "Until this day, the word 'pogrom' had a connotation which directly concerned us, Jews, as victims. Prime Minister Begin has 'extended' the scope of the term: there was Babi-Yar, Lidice, Oradour, and now there is Sabra and Shatila." ""

This should be printed in two foot high type, and permanently displayed in the Parliament chambers of all Western countries which turn a blind eye to Israel's expansionism.
______________________________________________________________________

""A debate can be won or lost, and you lose.""

First it is necessary to debate the issue, and if and when you ever actually do that, then and only then will you have a small chance of claiming victory and a much larger chance of admitting defeat.

I look forard to it as an unlikely pleasure.
______________________________________________________________________

"" -snip-"By that evening, the heavy artillery had ceased. Only the sound of light artillery and gunshots could be heard."-snip-"" from Siegel

""...-snip-Despite what she says here, I would have expected firing during the illumination.
The flares were fired for a purpose, but not for a massacre.-snip-
"" from Keith A.

Do you ever read the posts to which you respond, usually negatively?

""artillery and gunshots""

""The three Clinton vetoes brought to 32 the number Washington has cast to protect Israel."
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html""

Thirty two US vetoes and Keith called me a liar when I said there were any. I guess it's now obvious which of us is a liar (if it wasn't already blindingly obvious).
______________________________________________________________________

""Had there been none, it would still have been reasonable to go in and check.""

So you would say that the phalangists checked all those civilians to death?
______________________________________________________________________

""All the motions were proposed by nasty Islamic Republics and
vicious little dictatorships who outnumber the decent democracies,""

And there, the veneer having slipped, we see the real nasty little Islamophobe.
______________________________________________________________________

""Proper democracies, with a free and informed press and media, know that all the ant-Israel shit is just that.

The lies you peddle are recognised as just that, outside your little bubble of bigots.""

See the above comment! He'd be a wow at the White Supremacists' Convention.
______________________________________________________________________

""Eyewitness statements ARE NOT VALID EVIDENCE, according to DonT.""

Don't be any more of a fuckwit than you can help BB, you know damn well that is a misquote of what I said.

One unsupported eye witness statement is evidence but proves nothing in court.

You need at least two for it to be proof.

Added to which I most certainly was not referring to the Sabra/Shatila eye witnesses.

There are more than enough of them for proof, if we could only get past the fundamentalist pro Israelis who shout everyone else down (or try to).
______________________________________________________________________

""I make up nothing.
I can substantiate everything and keep offering to.

You know this, so you can only repeat the lie.""

DON'T OFFER! Bloody well do it. Otherwise it's just empty bluster.

You CAN'T substantiate any of it. You can only repeat and repeat the output of the Israeli propaganda machine.

Not enough.

I ask you to comment on the Bedouins who have been uprooted three times, and in spite of being told that the third place was permanent, now face a fourth upheaval, and you respond with waffle about trade with Australia

BLOODY IRRELEVANT!

So yes SUBSTANTIATE or shut up.
______________________________________________________________________

""Israel Zamir, the son of Nobel Prize-winner Isaac Bashevis-Singer, wrote: "Until this day, the word 'pogrom' had a connotation which directly concerned us, Jews, as victims. Prime Minister Begin has 'extended' the scope of the term: there was Babi-Yar, Lidice, Oradour, and now there is Sabra and Shatila." ""

This should be printed in two foot high type, and permanently displayed in the Parliament chambers of all Western countries which turn a blind eye to Israel's expansionism.
______________________________________________________________________

""A debate can be won or lost, and you lose.""

First it is necessary to debate the issue, and if and when you ever actually do that, then and only then will you have a small chance of claiming victory and a much larger chance of admitting defeat.

I look forard to it as an unlikely pleasure.
______________________________________________________________________

"" -snip-"By that evening, the heavy artillery had ceased. Only the sound of light artillery and gunshots could be heard."-snip-"" from Siegel

""...-snip-Despite what she says here, I would have expected firing during the illumination.
The flares were fired for a purpose, but not for a massacre.-snip-
"" from Keith A.

Do you ever read the posts to which you respond, usually negatively?

""artillery and gunshots""

Could that be the firing you expected, or do you simply not know that gunshots = firing?

The light artillery didn't follow the flares, that is how flares are delivered, but when it is constant a layman could well get the idea that it followed.
______________________________________________________________________

""You always try to change the subject.""

Says Keith A, who has introduced Australia, Finland and Denmark and others to this thread.
______________________________________________________________________

""For almost 48 hours, from September 16th to the 18th, I attempted to save the lives of those who were brought to the hospital. Many had severe wounds from being shot at close range. I cared for hundreds of terrified refugees seeking the safety of the hospital. I tried to comprehend the throat-slitting gesture the women made. . I WATCHED FROM A TOP FLOOR OF THE HOSPITAL AS FLARES WERE SHOT IN THE AIR. THE FLARES ILLUMINATED AREAS OF THE CAMP; THE SOUND OF AUTOMATIC WEAPONS FIRE FOLLOWED EACH ILLUMINATION."""

This Keith, contradicts every single thing you have said about Ellen Siegel.

Do you think a nurse wouldn't recognise short range gunshot wounds and wouldn't know that the victims were civilians?
______________________________________________________________________

""We never make up anything and even if we were liars, have no need to.""

Who is "WE", you and Israel?

Pull the other one.
______________________________________________________________________

If you can't refute the evidence smear the witness.

That is even lower than the lowest I thought you would go.
______________________________________________________________________

""Bigotry, and a hate fueled prejudice against the Israeli people.""

Once again Keith, you cannot resist lying.

Nobody, but NOBODY on this thread is prejudiced against the Israeli people.

The ultra xenophobic government of Israel is our target, along with its self willed and merciless so-called "Defence Force"

It has turned the Gaza strip into an open concentration camp and is incrementally stealing the West Bank.

It responds to sticks and stones with rifle fire, to unguided rockets with total destruction and while it may not be using cluster munitions any more, it is making no effort to assist in their removal, preferring to let Arab children do the clearing at the cost of a leg, or worse.

Have I missed anything?....I'm sure there's quite a bit more.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:43 AM

"Hiding behind the Holocaust as a justification for oppressing the Palestinian people is reprehensible"

The Palestinian people living in Israel do not consider themselves to be oppressed - why do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:34 AM

Keith, that's your opinion. I am not an antisemite for criticizing Israel's behavior. I see Nazi-like attitudes coming out of Israeli leadership and I never said that Israel was like Nazi Germany.

I highlight the significance of that.

The mistake you make is thinking that my criticism of Israeli leadership is a condemnation of the Israeli people. I don't hate them and I sympathize with their plight by being lead around by these militarized leaders who have behaved like Nazis. We have similar problems in the U.S.

My criticism of Syria is not relevant to this thread.

Hiding behind the Holocaust as a justification for oppressing the Palestinian people is reprehensible. It cheapens the memory.

By the way, are you Jewish?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:50 AM

"unjustifiable comparisons between Israel and the Nazis."
.,,.
There is another regular contributor to this thread - he will know whom I mean - with whom I had rather a disagreeable passage of arms on this very topic some time ago, when he was indulging in the practice of using terms like Holocaust [with its cap H] in relation to some Israeli actions, but would not accept the implications in his attitude which this implied. I hope he has now taken note of the fact that "according to European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)it is recognised that trying to equate Israel with Nazi crimes identifies an antisemite".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:39 AM

And, when have you ever criticised Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:29 PM

Stringsinger, you make unjustifiable comparisons between Israel and the Nazis.

It was not me who highlighted the significance of that.
Whatever your genealogy, that is what you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:10 PM

Hey Keith, I do criticize Syria. There is no hatred and bigotry on my part toward Israeli people. I sympathize with their predicament, they have leaders who are not being just.
Here's an item that you might look at.

Freedom from slavery?

Remember Keith that Palestinians are a Semitic people also and there is a difference between being anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish. Since I come from a long line of Jews, I am not anti-Jewish, quite the contrary, proud of the people on my mother's side who were Ashkenazim in Hungary and Austria.Many preserve Palestinian rather than Babylonian traditions. 80% of Jews are Ashkenazim.

Bobad, it isn't about me. What is relevant here is there is justification for Israeli incursion into Lebanon unless it is national paranoia. This also applies to the subjugation of the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:13 PM

Stringsinger, earlier in the thread we learned that according to European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)it is recognised that trying to equate Israel with Natzi crimes identifies an antisemite.

My quotes were from a Wiki page but I transposed Israel for Syria.
It was Syria who emulated the Natzis by marching troops into Lebanon to occupy it illegally for 30 years.
It was Syria who assasinated legitimate Lebanese leaders, one such assasination leading directly to that first massacre at Sabra/Shatila.

So why not a single word of criticism of Syria from all of you?
Bigotry, and a hate fueled prejudice against the Israeli people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 09:10 AM

Amran Hussain EUJS speech at the UN 21st of March 2011

"EUJS speech at the UN during the Item 7 to support Israel, Against UN dispropationnal reaction.
As a muslim student, he wanted to explain himself and why he decided to make this speech."