BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

""The danger is that, if we readily condone what Israel did, it will give them the heart to be a little bolder. Next thing we know, they'll be bombing alleged "nuclear installations" inside Iran.""

Yes Steve, there's precedent already established for that statement, as follows:-

""Israeli Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance. See War and Conflict Journal's article on this attack.

Source ABC News and Associated Press.""

This was just one of the Israeli incursions I posted a few days ago, and which were studiously ignored by our Pro Israel fanatics.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:55 AM

From the Anti Semite BBC
Jim Carroll
"Half the Bedouin population lives in cities.* Bedouin settlements are amongst the most deprived in Israel, and are severely lacking in services such as public transport and banks. The rest of the 76,000 continue to live in tens of "unrecognized villages," some of which predate the existence of Israel.[9] These villages do not appear on any Israeli maps, and are denied basic services like water, electricity and schools. It is forbidden by the Israeli authorities for the residents of these villages to build permanent structures, though many do, risking fines and home demolition.[9] Several, including Wadi el Na'am, are located close to the Ramat Hovav toxic waste dump, and residents have suffered from higher than average incidences of respiratory illnesses and cancer.[13] The Israeli government frequently demolishes homes and sprays toxic pesticides onto crops in the unrecognized villages, including one episode where Bedouin homes were demolished to make way for the establishment of a Jewish town.[14] ..."
http://www.sciforums.com/BBC-on-Israel-s-Negev-Bedouin-policy-shame-t-71060.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:00 AM

""Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.""

The fact that Egypt, or any other country, ill treats a minority, makes that country wrong, evil and racist.

Israel is one of those countries and the fact that it has company in its mistreatment of minorities does not make it better than the others.

It makes them all equally wrong.

When will you grow up and realise that "Jimmy did it too miss, always was and still is an invalid argument.

And who is deperately changing the subject now?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

And again
Jim Carroll
A mass forcible eviction, which seems the most likely outcome of the plans of the Israeli authorities, would be a breach of the Geneva Conventions – which is a war crime, for which there is personal criminal liability.
There are also grave environmental concerns with the proposed relocation site for many of the Jahalin Bedouin communities, which is located next to a potentially highly toxic rubbish dump east of Jerusalem.
Furthermore, B'Tselem and the Bedouin communities of Area C claim that the plan to expand Ma'ale Adumim will sever the connection between the southern and the northern part of theWest Bank for Palestinians – effectively ending the possibility of a two-state solution
http://palsolidarity.org/2011/12/khan-al-ahmar-forced-expulsion-of-bedouins-from-area-c/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:55 AM

There is hope in the
younger generation

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 12:58 PM

Don, I am grateful to Israel that Assad does not now have a nuclear capability, and so is the rest of the world outside of Iran.
You would be happy with it?

Israel does not mistreat its minorities.
Egypt does.

"Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.

Locked in this arid expanse, the Bedouins claim they have have been left to fend for themselves. Mistrust between the government and the Bedouins, some of whom allegedly collaborated with the Israeli military when it occupied Sinai in 1967, continues to fuel negative stereotypes about them."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/jun/17/egypt-bedouin-risk-of-exclusion-citizenship-rights

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM

Thanks for that video Freda. Jewish youth are increasingly becoming aware and active in such ways.

And for those who lob "self-hating Jew" around at any Jewish critique of Israeli policies, this video demonstrates how blatantly false such an accusation is. Instead, it shows just how proud such dissenting Jewish voices are to actively reclaim their longstanding Jewish spiritual and political tradition of, and identity as, activists for social justice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8dCIrO5kbw

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:07 PM

Israel doesn't mistreat its minorities, huh?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/feb/10/beitar-jerusalem-counts-cost-arson

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM

Steve, that is a story about football?

Jim, your quote was not BBC but Wiki, and the other from an extreme anti-Israel site.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM

An interesting article from the Harvard's Institute of Politics.

The Plight of the Syrian Kurds

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:36 PM

Jim, the fake BBC Wiki quote was about "unrecognised" villages.
Some are near a toxic site.
Israel is trying to relocate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM

""In a crowded country you can not always let nomadic people set up wherever they want.
Israel is doing its best for their Bedouin and their population is thriving.
Let's here some condemnation of the persecution of Bedouin in Egypt.""

But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it? Just what you accused us of doing?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:49 PM

""Khaldi is still a proud Bedouin and believes that a Jewish state is in the best interest of Israel's minorities.""

One uncle Tom doth not an inclusive nation make! Especially when he is glossing over the treatment of his fellows. It is also difficult to believe that a genuine Arab would see a "Jewish State" as anything but anathema. An "Israeli State", well maybe, but it still ignores the plight of his kind.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM

""Israel does not mistreat its minorities.""

LIE!

You have been presented with irrefutable evidence that it does.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:03 PM

""Jim, your quote was not BBC but Wiki, and the other from an extreme anti-Israel site.""

My posted facts were not from an extreme anti Israel source Keith, but from ABC News and Associated Press.

Was that the reason for your ignoring the whole lot, because they were from impeccably credible sources?

And we aren't going to allow you to sidetrack this thread. You accused us of trying to change the subject. Now we won't allow you to do the self same thing. So answer the points put to you, or quit.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:44 PM

It is also difficult to believe that a genuine Arab would see a "Jewish State" as anything but anathema
Only if you have a false impression based on hatred Don.
Every year, between 5 and 10% of all Bedouin males reaching the required age VOLUNTEER for the army of Israel.

But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it?
No. The subject was persecution of Bedouin.
They are persecuted in Egypt, but not in Israel.

You have been presented with irrefutable evidence that it does.
Er, no Don.

My posted facts were not from an extreme anti Israel source Keith, but from ABC News and Associated Press.
I remember the one about Israel destroying Assad's nuclear facility, for which the world is grateful, and I posted about it.
What did I miss Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 03:47 PM

Real BBC quote.
In fact, there are thousands of Muslim Bedouin who serve in the Israeli army, or IDF, and even bear arms against their fellow Muslims in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
They do so although it is not compulsory for them to serve in the Israeli military, as it is for most Israeli Jews, and sometimes military service comes with a price tag.
"I will do whatever is required from me to do the job with the full faith in the service of the Israeli state," asserts Maj Fehd Fallah, a Bedouin from the village of Saad in the Israeli occupied Golan.
He is happy to perform his duty, whoever he may have to fight against.

"Yes, I have fought against Muslims in Gaza," he says. That includes Israel's three-week Operation Cast Lead which began in December last year.
"And I would fight again if I had to," he added. "Israeli Muslims who don't serve in the IDF should be ashamed for not serving their country."

Military service is a family tradition in many Bedouin villages, especially those located in the north of Israel.
During my conversation with Maj Fallah, two men were standing listening to us. They were his cousins and both wore the uniform of the IDF.
"It's a legacy - it's something that has been passed on from generation to generation in my family," Maj Fallah explains.
"My father and his father served in the army too."


Bedouin who serve in Israel's army


Many Bedouin Arabs serve in the Israeli army and security forces

By Rachid Sekkai
BBC Arabic Service, northern Israel

The traditional view of the Arab-Israeli conflict is of Jews fighting Muslims. But that image does not always reflect the truth.
In fact, there are thousands of Muslim Bedouin who serve in the Israeli army, or IDF, and even bear arms against their fellow Muslims in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
They do so although it is not compulsory for them to serve in the Israeli military, as it is for most Israeli Jews, and sometimes military service comes with a price tag.
"I will do whatever is required from me to do the job with the full faith in the service of the Israeli state," asserts Maj Fehd Fallah, a Bedouin from the village of Saad in the Israeli occupied Golan.
He is happy to perform his duty, whoever he may have to fight against.

Bedouin have fought and died alongside Jewish Israelis in the army
"Yes, I have fought against Muslims in Gaza," he says. That includes Israel's three-week Operation Cast Lead which began in December last year.
"And I would fight again if I had to," he added. "Israeli Muslims who don't serve in the IDF should be ashamed for not serving their country."
Israel's Bedouin are a Muslim, Arabic-speaking group. Although these formerly nomadic people were once considered part of the Palestinian nation, most of them are now proud to call themselves Israelis.
Co-operation between Jews and Bedouin began before the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948.
In 1946, tribal leader Abu Yusuf al-Heib sent more than 60 of his men to fight alongside Zionist forces against their Arab neighbours in Galilee.
More than 60 years on, Maj Fallah's devotion to the Jewish state was unequivocal. He even refused to be interviewed by me in Arabic, insisting: "I have better command of Hebrew."
Military service is a family tradition in many Bedouin villages, especially those located in the north of Israel.
During my conversation with Maj Fallah, two men were standing listening to us. They were his cousins and both wore the uniform of the IDF.
"It's a legacy - it's something that has been passed on from generation to generation in my family," Maj Fallah explains.
"My father and his father served in the army too."
Potential conflict
The Israeli army does not publish statistics about the exact number of non-Jewish enlisted soldiers, although it says hundreds of non-Jewish Israeli citizens - Muslims, Christians and Druze - join up every year.
Their numbers have grown rather than decreased since the controversial military assault on Gaza.
        
When I was in the army, they said it would be easy for me to get the job. I applied for a lot of things but it wasn't easy
Maher, Bedouin recruit
The Israeli military official responsible for minorities is Col Ahmed Ramiz.
He is Druze, another Arabic-speaking ethnic group with a presence in Israel and other parts of the Middle East.
He told me that the main obligation for any citizen of Israel "is to defend his country and to serve in the IDF".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 03:59 PM

Steve, that is a story about football?

I can't believe you'd discount such a thing so cynically. In microcosm, it's all about Israeli attitudes to Arabs, Keith. Israel apropos of racism is about where we were (and where you are still) in the 1950s. What goes on in a football crowd and what has yet to be addressed is a prime symptom of a nation's cultural/racial issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:03 PM

No Steve.
Football hooligans are a thuggish subset of a community.
To draw a conclusion about all Israelis from that incident is racist bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM

From your story Steve.
"Beitar, the only Israeli club to have never signed a player from the 20% of the country's population that is Arab"

It is racist to judge all Jews in Israel by a subgroup of the supporters of one football team.
Especially now that team has Muslim players too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:30 PM

Please yourself. When I say it's symptomatic of Israeli attitudes to Arabs I'm talking about an attitude endemic in the country that has not been effectively addressed. Outrages at football matches in this country one tenth as bad as that one are roundly condemned here (as Luis Suarez discovered), and their incidence has reduced to almost nil. What I am not saying, just as I would not have said about violence and racism at football matches here in the 50s, 60s and 70s, is that it meant everyone in the country was racist. There are racist bigots everywhere, but we can usefully judge a country by what they do about it. The fact that Israel has 70s-style difficulties of this kind at their matches speaks volumes about where they are along the road to fighting racism. And that is not very far. And you do have to wonder whether they care.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 06:06 PM

Guest CS, what a great video - thanks for posting. It's informative to hear from brave Jewish voices for peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:56 PM

Indeed, Freda. I'm sorry I missed that link when CS put it up. It's wonderful. What a shame that there are so many race-hate comments underneath it. One there that Keith himself might have proudly typed:

What a joke. Israeli Arabs have more rights in israel than they do in any other arab country. This should be plainly obvious to everyone by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 10:27 PM

If you read your own link you will see it was roundly condemned in Israel and people arrested and charged.

You are passing judgement on a whole ethnic group on the basis of one crime by a group of far-Right football hooligans.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:09 AM

Yeah. And when Arabs start saying the same things those Jews are, maybe change will happen and then there'll be an outbreak of peace. One can but hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:26 AM

Steve.
One there that Keith himself might have proudly typed:

What a joke. Israeli Arabs have more rights in israel than they do in any other arab country.

Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jewish Israelis, so yes that is perfectly correct.
Also they are exempted from compulsory military service.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:24 AM

"From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:09 AM
Yeah. And when Arabs start saying the same things those Jews are, maybe change will happen and then there'll be an outbreak of peace. One can but hope."

They already ARE working in solidarity with Arabs 999. They already are spreading the same message.

JVP actively oppose the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, just the same as Arabs do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:28 AM

Do you have a video of the Crow Sister? Of Arabs working with Jews to bring the present Israeli government to its senses regarding the settlements? If so, please post. I'd love to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:49 AM

I see Keith isn't the only Troll on this thread -
Before it gets closed down; Amnesty's take on the Bedouin's treatment in Israel - antisemitc, no doubt
Jim Carroll

ISRAEL: CANCEL PLAN TO FORCIBLY DISPLACE JAHALIN BEDOUIN COMMUNITIES
"Thousands of Bedouin are facing the destruction of their homes and livelihoods under this Israeli military plan"
Ann Harrison, Deputy Director for Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Programme
Israeli defence minister Ehud Barak should cancel military plans to forcibly displace around 2,300 Bedouin residents of the West Bank to an area beside the Jerusalem municipal garbage dump, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing paper.
In Stop the Transfer: Israel about to expel Bedouin from homes to expand settlements, the organization calls on the Israeli military to order an immediate halt to all demolitions in the 20 communities affected by the plan.
Amnesty International said that verbal promises made by Israeli military officials last week not to implement pending demolition orders in Khan al-Ahmar, one of the Bedouin communities targeted for displacement in the Jerusalem district of the occupied West Bank, are insufficient.   
"Thousands of Bedouin living in some of the most vulnerable communities in the West Bank are facing the destruction of their homes and livelihoods under this Israeli military plan. Many are registered refugees and some have been displaced multiple times since 1948," said Ann Harrison, Deputy Director for Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Programme.
"The Israeli authorities must guarantee the right to adequate housing for residents in all 20 communities, along with Palestinians throughout the occupied West Bank. This means protecting them from forced evictions and conducting genuine consultations with all of the communities."
In July 2011, Israel Civil Administration officials first told UN agencies of a plan to evict some 2,300 residents of 20 Bedouin communities in the Jerusalem district to a site approximately 300 metres from the Jerusalem municipal garbage dump.
The communities are all currently located near illegal settlements in the Ma'ale Adumim settlement bloc, many of them in areas targeted for settlement expansion.
The Israeli military considers most structures in these communities – located in Area C of the occupied West Bank, where Israel retains authority over planning and zoning – to be built illegally without the required permits. However, construction permits are almost impossible to obtain for Palestinian communities in Area C. Most of the structures in these communities have demolition orders against them, including homes, kitchens, external toilets, animal shelters, and two primary schools.   
The Israeli military authorities have not consulted representatives of the Bedouin communities about the displacement plan. Community representatives have told Amnesty International that they reject the plan because it would be impossible for them to maintain their traditional way of life if they were moved to a restricted area near the garbage dump.
Israel forcibly moved Bedouin families to the same area in the late 1990s, placing homes as close as 150 metres to the garbage dump. Bedouin who live there have told Amnesty International that the site was unsuitable to their way of life, that they had had to sell off their livestock due to a lack of grazing areas, and that they suffered high rates of unemployment. Some have returned to the areas from which they had been displaced.   
According to the Israeli Ministry of Environmental Protection, the dump receives up to 1100 tons of garbage per day, most of it from Jerusalem. The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage.
Although disposal of waste at the site is due to cease later this year, no rehabilitation plan has been agreed, which means that the environmental hazards will likely remain for years.
Israeli officials have emphasized that the displacement plan envisions connecting relocated Bedouin communities to the electricity and water networks. They have not explained why Israel can provide such services to illegal settlements and unrecognized settler outposts in the West Bank, but not to longstanding Bedouin communities.
The 20 Bedouin communities have created a "protection committee" to coordinate their response to the displacement plan. The committee's stated preference would be to return to their lands in Israel's Negev desert from which they were displaced by the Israeli authorities in the 1950s, in accordance with their internationally recognized right to return.
The Bedouin communities say that their second option would be for Israeli authorities to recognize their rights to remain in their current homes, connect them to water, electricity and road networks, and lift arbitrary restrictions on their movement. Due to these restrictions, many Bedouin must buy animal fodder for sheep and goats that they were formerly able to graze, forcing them to sell their livestock.
As the final option, the Bedouin would be willing to negotiate the possibility of relocating again, if the Civil Administration treated them as equal negotiating partners.
Major-General Eitan Dangot, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, visited the Khan al-Ahmar community last week, and reportedly promised residents that that their homes and community school would not be demolished, and that they would not be transferred to the site next to the garbage dump. He said that the community would be moved to a different site in the occupied West Bank.
But Amnesty International said that was not enough.
"Israeli military officials are putting a gloss on their plans by portraying them as a way of providing Bedouin with basic amenities such as water and electricity, but in fact such forcible relocation of Bedouin would merely perpetuate years of dispossession and discrimination AND COULD CONSTITUTE A WAR CRIME," said Ann Harrison.
"Informal promises are not enough for these communities. The Israeli Minister of Defence must issue a formal cancellation of this policy."
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israel-cancel-plan-forcibly-displace-jahalin-bedouin-communities-2012-02-08

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:54 AM

Out of date info again Jim.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/bedouin-community-wins-reprieve-from-forcible-relocation-to-jerusalem-garbage-dump-1.411248

Israel is not like nearby states.
Everyone has rights and access to law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:11 AM

The Israelis have not abandoned their plans to move the Bedouin next to A TOXIC DUMP - "The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage." but have possibly yielded to pressure due to the threat of being prosecuted for war crimes
The fact that they are still considering the plan makes them potential rather than actual war criminals (in this case alone - they have already committed war crimes).
The fact that they should consider carrying out such a murderous act, even after having been warned they they might be prosecuted for committing a war crime, says all that needs be said on the nature of the Israeli regime.
The Bedouin will have no final say in the decision.
Israel is indeed "not like nearby states" - it is a terrorist state with nuclear weapons.
This thread becomes yet another exercise in feeding the fanatic.
Jim Carroll

"The Bedouin, who are from the Jahalin tribe, will be given the opportunity to review and comment on the new proposal but will not be consulted before it is drawn up, Palestinian sources said."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:31 AM

Not toxic waste Jim.
Just garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:41 AM

Are you really such a heartless bastard as to condone the removal of a whole community from their traditional lands to a TOXIC DUMP
"The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage." - this description of the dump is from that well known Antisemitic group, THE ISRAELI MINISTRY OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
You really have any abandoned any vestige of self respect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:12 AM

Not toxic, just garbage, and it is not going to happen anyway, and the dump is due to close this year.
Another hyped up non-issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:31 AM

You really are going to condone the depositing of a whole community adjacent to a rubbish dump, aren't you?
Methane if it gets into the water supply becomes toxic
If it is mixed with other gasses it becomes toxic
Children playing on or near such rubbish dumps are liable to be hurt and poisoned - the Israeli Ministry for the Environment has stated that the dump "is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires"
The Amnesty report contains the following, which you have carefully forgotten to mention, "Although disposal of waste at the site is due to cease later this year, no rehabilitation plan has been agreed, which means that the environmental hazards will likely remain for years."
The toxicity of a site this size, in fact will remain in the ground for decades.
This is how much of a 'non event' this potential war crime is.
I have wondered in the past whether you could possibly sink any lower in your defence of a terrorist state and your racist crusades - you continue to surprise me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:44 AM

People have to live near garbage dumps here.
All those hazards are easily overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:02 AM

You are passing judgement on a whole ethnic group on the basis of one crime by a group of far-Right football hooligans.

What "ethnic group" was I passing judgement on? And "one crime"?? It's a running sore in Israeli football, not a single incident.

If I put up a post condemning racist chanting at an English footie match, would you immediately jump down my throat and claim that I was demonising a "whole ethnic group"? So what's different here? You think I'm chomping at the bit to demonise Jews, is that it? Paranoia of the highest order, Keith, I'm afraid. Just like all those militant Zionist bedfellows of yours, you want to mark out any criticism of Israel as criticism of Jews and shout it down. First you try to trivialise my link, then you try to accuse me of passing judgement on all Jews. Just for once, why can't you do the honest thing and admit that there is a problem of discrimination against Arabs in Israel and that the link revealed one of its instances.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:06 AM

Also they are exempted from compulsory military service.

And why do you suppose Israel needs compulsory military service?

Yes, they are exempted, but they can join if they like. The numbers who choose to join are extremely low. That say anything to you about how Arabs in Israel feel thoroughly disenfranchised, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

Arabs are not disenfranchised.
They have the same voting rights and every other right as Jews.

It was a single incident, not a running sore.
Every team has Arab players.
Check your headline, "Israelis shocked by..."
The leadership of the country were moved to denounce it.

"Condemnation of the hardcore fans' behaviour has been swift and harsh.
Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Friday's apparent arson attack was "shameful", adding: "The Jewish people, [who have] suffered boycotts and persecution, should be a light unto other nations."

Beitar's manager, Itzhik Kornfein, told Israel Radio on Friday: "This has gone beyond sports and this has ramifications for Israeli society and for how we look to the world."

Earlier, President Shimon Peres said the entire country was shocked, and former prime minister Ehud Olmert, a Beitar fan for more than 40 years, said that he would no longer attend matches because of fans' behaviour. "Ultimately, this is a matter that concerns all of us. Either we remove this group of racists from our field and cut it off from the team, or we are all like them. Until that happens, I will not go to games," he wrote."

Did you not read your own link Steve?
Why SO DESPERATE to demonize Israel that you have to make shit up?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 12:33 PM

""But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it?
No. The subject was persecution of Bedouin.""

No, the subject was an incursion into Syria and the destruction of Syrian Personnel and Equipment, on the flimsiest of excuses that the equipment was arms for Hezbollah, which has not as yet been proved to be the case.

Or rather that's what it was until the volume of evidence showing precedents for such Israeli behaviour became too strong for you to handle, and you ran for cover in your long established fashion by scattering blame everywhere else but where it belongs.

Egypt is evil, Syria is evil, Hezbollah and Lebanon is evil, Iran is too, and on and on and on ad nauseam, but Israel is a heaven for all its citizens and it is whiter than white and squeaky clean in the way it treats its neighbours...........and that's the point where nausea really sets in.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:25 PM

We seem to have established that moving whole communities to toxic garbage dumps is a "hyped up non-issue."
Let's try this one on equality.
Jim Carroll
"While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:
The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority's awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation.[174]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM

Here you are, Keith. From last April, nothing to do with this latest incident.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/it-s-time-to-intervene-against-racism-in-israeli-soccer-1.422040

Only in Israeli soccer can a club block Arabs from joining its ranks, and harsh violence is treated solely as a disciplinary infraction, to be handled by the Israel Football Association's internal court. The anarchy and lack of police enforcement have turned Israeli soccer into a source of violence, racism and hatred, and has even started to attract dubious characters, who at times manage the teams.

The IFA is subordinate to international sports institutions, such as UEFA, the Union of European Football Associations, and FIFA, the international association, and vehemently refuses the involvement of the Culture and Sports Ministry. But after several years in which Culture and Sports Minister Limor Livnat has proven incapable of getting rid of the rot that has penetrated Israeli soccer, it's time for her to get into the thick of things.

She must adopt the model that has been successfully used in Britain, which combines persistent, preventive police action against hooligans and tough sentences against violent fans. The State of Israel cannot allow a situation in which a sport avidly followed by hundreds of thousands of people, among them many youngsters, turns into an untreatable abscess of racism and violence.

Not demonisation, not made-up shit, Keith. Concern expressed by reasonable people who want to face the truth of a long-time endemic culture in Israel. We tackled it here in the UK. Israel are thirty years behind us. You have to wonder if they have the will.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:45 PM

Arabs are not disenfranchised.

I didn't say there were. I said that they might feel disenfranchised. Surely you didn't think I just meant whether they get to vote or not. The fact that you can't tell the difference either means you're having a bloody bad day or that you are being wilfully stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM

INEQUALITY REPORT -THE PALESTINIAN ARAB MINORITY IN ISRAEL

MAIN FINDINGS

THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK OF INEQUALITY
Inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel span all fields of public life and have persisted over Lime. Direct and indirect discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel is ingrained in the legal system and in governmental practice.
The right to equality and freedom from discrimination is not explicitly enshrined in Israeli law as a constitutional right, nor is it protected by statute. While Supreme Court justices have interpreted The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty as comprising the principle of equality, this fundamental right is currentiy protected by judicial interpretation alone.
The definition of the State of Israel as a Jewish state makes inequality and discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel a reality and a political project. The pairing of "Jewish" and "democratic" both codifies discrimination against non-Jewish citizens and impedes the realization of full equality.
Numerous groups of Palestinian citizens of Israel face "compound discrimination" or multiple forms of discrimination on the basis of both their national belonging as Arabs/Palestinians and their membership in one or more other distinct subgroups, such as women, the disabled and the elderly.
More than 30 main laws discriminate, directly or indirectly, against Palestinian citizens of Israel, and the current government coalition has proposed a flood of new racist and discriminatory bills which are at various stages in the legislative process.

CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS
Palestinian citizens of Israel are afforded differential and unequal treatment under Israeli law in the field of citizenship rights. The most important immigration and nationality laws—including the Law of Return (1950) and the Citizenship Law (1952) —privilege Jews and Jewish immigration.
If the spouse of a Palestinian citizen of Israel is a Palestinian resident of the OPT, it has been virtually impossible for him or her to gain residency or citizenship status in Israel since May 2002. This ban on family unification is totally disproportionate to the alleged security reasons cited by Israel to justify it; rather, it is motivated by the state's desire to maintain a Jewish demographic majority.
A new law makes it possible to strip Israeli citizenship for various reasons related to alleged "disloyalty" to the state or "breach of trust", indirectly targeting the citizenship rights of Palestinian citizens. Several attempts to pass additional laws that grant the authority to revoke citizenship and impose further loyalty oaths are currently pending in the Knesset.

INCOME/POVERTY
Arab families are greatly over-represented among Israel's poor: over half of Arab families in Israel are classified as poor, compared to an average poverty rate of one-fifth among all families in Israel. Arab towns and villages are heavily over-represented in the lowest socio-economic rankings, and the unrecognized Arab Bedouin villages in the Naqab are the poorest communities in the state.
Gaps in income and poverty rates are directly related to institutional discrimination against Arab citizens in Israel.
Redistribution of resources and social welfare
Although the right to equality demands that states take positive steps to bridge the gaps between the various population groups, the State of Israel actively seeks to promote and direct resources to Jewish citizens as a privileged majority within the "Jewish State". In many policy areas, including the designation of "National Priority Areas" and the use of the military-service criterion to allocate resources, the state actively preserves and perpetuates inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel.
The state has consistently failed to take adequate and effective action to address the phenomenon of absolute and relative poverty among the Arab minority in Israel. Where it has initiated development programs targeting the Arab minority, such as the "Multi-Year Plan", the state has tended to implement them partially, gradually, or not at all.
Direct state policy measures to reduce poverty disproportionately target Jewish citizens, with the result that poverty rates have fallen far more sharply among Jewish citizens than among their Arab counterparts, and inequalities have consequently persisted.

EMPLOYMENT
Palestinian citizens of Israel often face discrimination in work opportunities, pay and conditions, both because of the inadequate implementation of equal-opportunity legislation and because of entrenched structural barriers, which particularly affect women, and include poor or non-existent public transportation, a lack of industrial zones, and a shortage of state-run daycare centers. Palestinian citizens are also excluded from the labor force by the use of the military-service criterion as a condition for acceptance for employment, often when there is no connection between the nature of the work and military experience.
Unemployment rates remain significantly higher among Arab than among Jewish citizens, and the rate of labor-force participation among Palestinian women citizens of Israel, at just about 20 %, is among the lowest in the world.
Palestinian citizens of Israel in general, and women in particular, continue to be sorely underrepresented in the civil service, the largest employer in Israel (in total, Arabs constitute just around 6% of all civil service employees), despite affirmative-action legislation stipulating fair representation for the Arab minority and for women.
The lack of development and investment in Arab towns and villages inside Israel and the unexploited or under-exploited human resources of the members of the Palestinian minority inhibit the growth of the Israeli economy. The lost potential to Israel's economy has been estimated at around US$ 8 billion per year by the Organisation for Economic Co¬operation and Development (OECD).

http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:26 PM

Don.

No, the subject was an incursion into Syria and the destruction of Syrian Personnel and Equipment,

No Don.
I wanted to keep to that subject because the action was legitimate and justified.
For the same reason all your mates needed to change it, and they won.
So we did end up discussing Bedouin persecution and you and your mates really did not want it mentioned that the ones in Israel are the lucky ones.
Israel is a heaven for all its citizens and it is whiter than white
Never claimed any of that.
Just that it is much better than its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:46 PM

We seem to have established that moving whole communities to toxic garbage dumps is a "hyped up non-issue."

It certainly is!
It is an ordinary garbage dump such as thousands of Brits, including neighbours and friends, live near in perfect safety.
Because all are equal under the law, the Bedouin were able to use the courts to get the move prevented anyway.
And anyway, anyone harmed by a badly maintained dump would be able to sue those responsible for ruinous compensation.

It really is just a hyped up non-issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:48 PM

Steve, there are football hooligans or equivalent in every country.
You would not judge any other country by its football hooligans, (Scotland?! Belgium?) so why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:52 PM

Jim you could make a list like that about any country.
Hispanics and Blacks in US.
Travellers in Ireland.
Jews and Christians in any Arab country.
Why single out Israel?

At least in Israel the law is unequivocal.
All are equal under the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:53 PM

Jeri, must I marry all this mob?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:10 PM

This is not just football hooliganism, Keith. It is football crowd racism and it is directed at Arabs and it is endemic in Israeli football. I've given you enough demonstration of that. Deny it if you want, but you'd be wrong. Yes it happened here (note past tense). We dealt with it and, bar a few isolated relatively minor incidents, which are always squashed and dealt with severely, it is now the exception. So much so that even minor outbursts such as one man in the crowd making monkey noises or a footballer making an unpleasant remark to another are not only stamped on but also make big news. Israel are where we were 30 years ago and, apart from the formulaic expressions of disgust from one or two politicians, nothing is done. I suppose a very large number of Israeli football fans think it's OK to behave like that and I don't suppose they'd worry too much about behaving the same discriminatory way in other areas of life. There's plenty of testimony from Arab residents of Israel to confirm that. A very large number of Israeli citizens may not be racist, but the nation of Israel as a whole is one of the most racist nations on the planet.