BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM

Ellen Siegel saw nothing of the massacre.
She is not describing what she saw in that quote.
We have both read her full account of her time in the camps.
She did not see bodies being buried as you claimed.

Fisk arrived after the massacre a couple of hours after Siegel left the camps, and reported no statements implicating Israelis on that day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 02:04 PM

"Neither Fisk nor Siegel saw any of these things, or were even told about them until much later."
Incidently - do you have any grounds whatever for this nonsensical statement. Ellen Seigal gave evidence to the Israeli Kahan commission enquiry and was fully aware of whet went on.
Fisk investigated the massacre immediately following the events and interviewed in depth eye-witnesses and survivors and victims relatives.
Don't be bloody silly, and don't assume we are.
Links and sources please.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM

"Neither Fisk nor Siegel saw any of these things, or were even told about them until much later."
From Ellen Seigal's account of the massacre
Cheers
Jim Carroll
"As the occupying force in Beirut, the IDF under the command of Ariel Sharon was responsible for the safety of the population. The IDF opened the refugee camps to a militia with a history of hatred and indiscriminate violence against Palestinians. It sealed off the refugee camps. It refused to allow terrified, pleading camp residents to escape through the exits of the camps. The IDF supplied the flares that lit the way for the murderers; it provided a bulldozer to help bury bodies in a mass grave and hide it with earth. And no official intervened when it became clear that innocent lives were being taken."
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 12:29 PM

The Palestinians of Sabra and Chatila are now giving evidence

Indeed they are.
Neither Fisk nor Siegel saw any of these things, or were even told about them until much later.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:59 AM

More Fisk And a bit of Ellen Seigal thrown in for good measure.
Jim Carroll
"The survivors tell distressingly similar stories. Bahija Zrein says she was ordered by an Israeli patrol to go to the Cite Sportif and the men with her, including her 22-year-old brother, were taken away. Some militiamen–watched by the Israelis–loaded him into a car, blindfolded, she claims. "That's how he disappeared," she says in her official testimony, "and I have never seen him again since."

"The idea that the Israelis went on handing over prisoners to their bloodthirsty militia allies never occurred to us. The Palestinians of Sabra and Chatila are now giving evidence that this is exactly what happened. One man, Abdel Nasser Alameh, believes his brother Ali was handed to the Phalange on the morning of the 18th. A Palestinian Christian woman called Milaneh Boutros has recorded how, in a truck-load of women and children, she was taken from the camps to the Christian town of Bikfaya, the home of the newly assassinated Christian president-elect Bashir Gemayel, where a grief-stricken Christian woman ordered the execution of a 13-year-old boy in the truck. He was shot. The truck must have passed at least four Israeli checkpoints on its way to Bikfaya. And heaven spare me, I realise now that I had even met the woman who ordered the boy's execution."
"says she was taken to the Cite Sportif where, in one of the underground "holding centres", she saw a retarded man, watched by Israeli soldiers, burying bodies in a pit. Her evidence might be rejected were it not for the fact that she also expressed her gratitude for an Israeli soldier–inside the Chatila camp, against all the evidence given by the Israelis–who prevented the murder of her daughters by the Phalange."

"When we got to the Cite Sportif, the Israelis put us women in a big concrete room and the men were taken to another side of the stadium. There were a lot of men from the camp and I could no longer see my husband. The Israelis went round saying 'Sit, sit.' It was 11am. An hour later, we were told to leave. But we stood around outside amid the Israeli soldiers, waiting for our men."
"There were Israeli trucks moving out with tarpaulin over them. We couldn't see inside. And there were jeeps and tanks and a bulldozer making a lot of noise. We stayed there as it got dark and the Israelis appeared to be leaving and we were very nervous. But then when the Israelis had moved away, we went inside. And there was no one there. Nobody. I had been only three years married. I never saw my husband again."

"They were put into Israeli army trucks or jeeps or Phalangist vehicles–for further "interrogation".

"Along the main road opposite the stadium there was a line of Israeli Merkava tanks, their crews sitting on the turrets, smoking, watching the men being led from the stadium in ones or twos, some being set free, others being led away by Shin Beth men or by Lebanese men in drab khaki overalls. All these soldiers knew what had happened inside the camps. One of the members of the tank crews, Lt Avi Grabovsky–he was later to testify to the Israeli Kahan commission–had even witnessed the murder of several civilians the previous day and had been told not to "interfere".

"I remember the roaring of Israeli tanks and bulldozers as they dug mass graves to bury the dead alive. I remember my injury and the explosion of the rocket or bomb launched by an Israeli tank at the entrance of Shatila from Fakahani and sports city near the intersection that leads to the Cola Bridge and UNRWA headquarters there. I was injured and my Lebanese friend, Mohammad Ali, from the Lebanese city of Baalbek was killed as we tried to stop the bombing and the progress of the tanks toward Shatila."
http://www.safsaf.org/word/2012/des/71.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:40 AM

Actually, Bobad, in interests of accuracy, that photo, or a companion one from a slightly different, full-face-on, angle which makes the point even more clearly, is on p37 of today's The Times.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:29 AM

The first paragraph is not disputed.
The other two paragraphs are about events after the massacre, and are not disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:28 AM

Photo of audience listening to Pres. Obama speak in Israel

"This is in Israel and the speaker is Obama. Where else could you see hijabi Muslim women sit in the front row next to men.

Breaks every stereotype, doesn't it. Who would've expected hijabis in an Israeli audience? After all, its an apartheid state, isn't it?"

BTW the above was written by a Muslim.....thank you Tarek.

Also interesting to note is that the image was not published in any newspaper in the world even though Getty released it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM

Perhaps Don is as pissed off as I am your refusing to read or acknowledge everything that has been given to you
In the meantime:
"I believe Robert Fisk"
Who wrote - (always on the understanding that you don't believe the bits that don't suit your case of course)
Jim Carroll

"But in Beirut, the victims were Palestinians. The guilty were certainly Christian militiamen - from which particular unit we were still unsure - but the Israelis were also guilty. If the Israelis had not taken part in the killings, they had certainly sent militia into the camp. They had trained them, given them uniforms, handed them US army rations and Israeli medical equipment. Then they had watched the murderers in the camps, they had given them military assistance - the Israeli airforce had dropped all those flares to help the men who were murdering the inhabitants of Sabra and Chatila - and they had established military liason with the murderers in the camps"
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4733.htm

I saw hundreds of Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners, probably well over 1,000, sitting in its gloomy, dark interior, squatting in the dust, watched over by Israeli soldiers and plain-clothes Shin Beth (Israeli secret service) agents and men who I suspected were Lebanese collaborators. The men sat in silence, obviously in fear. From time to time, I noted, a few were taken away. They were put into Israeli army trucks or jeeps or Phalangist vehicles–for further "interrogation".

"All the Israelis knew what had happened inside the camps. The smell of the corpses was now overpowering. Outside, a Phalangist jeep with the words "Military Police" painted on it–if so exotic an institution could be associated with this gang of murderers–drove by. A few television crews had turned up. One filmed the Lebanese Christian militiamen outside the Cite Sportif. He also filmed a woman pleading to an Israeli army colonel called "Yahya" for the release of her husband. (The colonel has now been positively identified by The Independent. Today, he is a general in the Israeli army.)"
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:08 AM

Happy to dig it out again
A better attitude than Don's.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:07 AM

Seigal specifically said that she saw the bulldozers burying bodies - not in her letter - that fact was established long ago

Where DID she say it then Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:00 AM

If it hadn't been for the fact that Israel would have been liable for human rights abuses charges the Bedouins would have been moved onto this heap of shit long ago
Fisk and Seigal both produced evidence of Israel's complicity - want be to put it up again
Seigal specifically said that she saw the bulldozers burying bodies - not in her letter - that fact was established long ago
Happy to dig it out again
More holiday snaps
Jim Carroll

"The Israeli Ministry of Environment says it has demanded the Abu Dis landfill to be shut and rehabilitated years ago. In operation since the 1980s, the ministry says it lacks the infrastructure to deal with the amounts of waste that are dumped in it daily, compounding the damage to its surroundings."
Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/03/palestinian-bedouins-threatened-eviction.html#ixzz2OHPs2Li2"
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2012/12/20121217125028262988.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
And the proposal that has just been vetoed out
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164618#.UUxus34pDvg

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:55 AM

""The Bedouins next to that toxic dump are not, and for six hundred years have not been, nomadic.

Not true Don.""

I gave you chapter and verse on this and you blanked it.

Go back and read the f**king thing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM

Israel's population has more than tripled since 1950, and something has to go to make room for them.

That something is going to be the Arabs!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:49 AM

The Bedouins next to that toxic dump are not, and for six hundred years have not been, nomadic.

Not true Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:46 AM

Don.
He's apparently unaware that the vast majority of eye witnesses report honestly and truthfully what they see

I accept that is generally the case Don, but there is an industry devoted to smearing Israel.
Need I remind you of the examples of the "eye witness" liars I mentioned.
Only fools lap up all the propaganda without question.
Democratic governments are not fooled and do not treat Israel as a criminal or terrorist state.

I believe Fisk.
I believe Siegel.
I believe all the sources on your list except those soldiers who did not tell their stories until long after the enquiries.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:45 AM

""They do not occupy land they wander through putting up tents for temporary stops.
That does not give them the right to build anywhere they want in the whole Middle East!""

I have already produced evidence refuting this particular lie!

The Bedouins next to that toxic dump are not, and for six hundred years have not been, nomadic.

They have been settled for all that time raising cattle, sheep and camels.

They were occupying that land when the Israeli government decided, IIRC, 38 years ago, to site a toxic facility on their doorstep.

During the 38 years in question the Israelis have shown no interest in alleviating the health situation, but suddenly they are infused with a desire to move them to a "better" home.

Pardon me if I view that with a large helping of cynicism.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM

Nobody has suggested these are specifically "toxic waste sites" and you know this - you have had this pointed out a dozen times
No. You always refer to "toxic waste sites."
Your meaning is not at all clear Jim, but I am clearer now.

Non toxic waste sites are not toxic.
If not run properly there can be environmental issues, but Israel's, like the ones around Hertford, are properly run and not a danger to anybody.
These sites are toxic by their very nature;
No they are not.
the Israeli health authorities themselves have made this clear
No they have not.
and any scientific study will show that any site is dangerous to anybody living in the vicinity.
Bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:35 AM

""BTW Don - do you really think he believes the shit he writes?""

I'm very much afrai that he does Jim.

Why else would he look at the wealth of evidence we have produced, from sources Arab, neutral and Israeli and lump it all together as lies, prejudice and hatred of Israel?

Why else would he repeatedly tell us we are being duped by anti Israel Israelis for Christ's sake?

Give him a dozen eye witnesses and ""eye witnesses tell lies"".

He's apparently unaware that the vast majority of eye witnesses report honestly and truthfully what they see, but Israel cannot be at fault, so they must be lying.

The same with evidence from Associated Press ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Reuters ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from UNHRA ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from B'tselem ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Jewish human rights organisations ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Canadian doctors and nurses ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Israeli soldiers and ex soldiers ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Bedouins living on the edge of a rubbish dump ""ALL LIES!""
The same with evidence from Bedouins in long established villages where it has taken ten years to get a water supply, which, when it arrived was a single tap three miles away. ""ALL LIES!""

Everybody lies except Israel and Keith!

Mad as a box of frogs!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM

"They do not occupy land they wander through putting up tents for temporary stops"
Pratt - they live in villages and construct houses - each tribe has its own recognised territory.
"Counter to the image of the Bedouin as fierce stateless nomads roving the entire region, by the turn of the 20th century, much of the Bedouin population in Palestine was settled, semi-nomadic, and engaged in agriculture according to an intricate system of land ownership, grazing rights, and water access"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Bedouin

"There is a site for toxic waste"
Nobody has suggested these are specifically "toxic waste sites" and you know this - you have had this pointed out a dozen times
These sites are toxic by their very nature; the Israeli health authorities themselves have made this clear and any scientific study will show that any site is dangerous to anybody living in the vicinity.
You have been given their statement to that effect. They also point out that this toxicity will remain for at least ten years.
Anybody living in the proximity of that site is subject to poisoning, particularly through the water, but also in other ways - you have been given that information also stop lying.
This link includes photos of the prevailing condition of the proposed site and there are plenty more to illustrate links above which you have ignored
IT IS A TOXIC SITE
Nobody is defending Hamas's action in any way - you are attempting to hide behind the actions of what you have described as a terrorist regime in order to defend the destruction of over 400 villages.
You can't even claim that Hamas's actions are in any way comparable - 400 VILLAGES compared to WHAT?
"Now that really IS amusing, in a disgusting sort of way"
Keith specialises in sick, unfunny humour
Respond to what you have been given - with real evidence and links, not self-invented garbage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:45 AM

Israeli settlers have been bulldozed out for breaking them too

Now that really IS amusing, in a disgusting sort of way.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 08:27 AM

It has planning laws like every country.
Israeli settlers have been bulldozed out for breaking them too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM

But Israel believes it has the right to build wherever it wants.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

The Bedouins live in tribes, the tribe under threat of eviction has occupied this particular territory for centuries - this is long established and recognised.
You obviously have no concept of how nomadism works Jim!

They do not occupy land they wander through putting up tents for temporary stops.
That does not give them the right to build anywhere they want in the whole Middle East!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:38 AM

I trust we've heard the last about the destroyed villages,
See above.
toxic sites,
I provided evidence that Israel's refuse sites are well run and not toxic.
There is a site for toxic waste in the Negev that people should not live near. Israel wants to move them.
Bedouin support for Israel,
Strong as ever.
fascist enforced re-sitings to make room for settlements - and all the other garbage?
Garbage indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM

Destroyed houses search.
Hamas Set to Demolish Homes of 75 Families in Gaza City | Jewish ...
www.algemeiner.com › News › IsraelFeb 13, 2013 – Hamas is set to demolish the homes of 75 families in Gaza City nearly a year after a court ruled that they were built on public property.
Hamas to demolish 40 Gaza homes | Al Akhbar English
english.al-akhbar.com/node/14954Feb 13, 2013 – Gaza's Hamas government is set to demolish 40 houses in central Gaza city, nearly one year after a court ruled the neighborhood to be public ...
Hamas to raze 180 Gaza houses to erect Islamic religious center ...
www.haaretz.com/.../hamas-to-raze-180-gaza-houses-to-ere...

by Avi Issacharoff
May 21, 2010 – ... for Human Rights says Gaza authorities already destroyed 20 homes, ... said that Hamas plans to use the same pretext to demolish houses in ...
Hamas Gov't Demolishes Arab Homes in Gaza - Middle East - News ...
www.israelnationalnews.com › NewsFeb 13, 2013 – The Hamas government has issued an order to demolish 75 homes belonging to PA Arabs in Gaza City. The UN has made no comment.
Hamas violently kick Palestinians out of homes and destroy them in ...
► 2:34► 2:34
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNnhTjkuAU
Jul 3, 2010 - Uploaded by 91177info
Hamas the government of Gaza have started destroying Palestinian ... Hamas violently kick Palestinians ...
More videos for hamas destroy houses gaza »
BBC News - Hamas wrecks 'illegal' Gaza homes
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8687974.stmMay 17, 2010 – Hamas demolishes dozens of homes in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, ... Palestinians are more used to seeing homes destroyed in areas ...
What Harriet Sherwood missed while in Gaza: Hamas to demolish ...
cifwatch.com/.../what-harriet-sherwood-missed-while-in-gaza-hamas-...Feb 14, 2013 – Hamas, the de-facto Palestinian authorities in Gaza, have the right to demolish Palestinian houses in the Palestinian territory if needed for ...
Israel-Hamas 'Open War': LIVE UPDATES — RT News

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

"You have that the wrong way around.
It's appears to be you who has it the wrong way round
The way you appear to think it works is that we produce the evidence along with the links to the source - you deny it without evidence of your own or links to your information.
Don't work like that.
It has taken a few postings and a half dozen links to reduce your claims to rubbish fit only for the proposed Bedouin site - it really is as easy as that.
Without evidence or links your statements are entirely your own invention.
I trust we've heard the last about the destroyed villages, toxic sites, Bedouin support for Israel, fascist enforced re-sitings to make room for settlements - and all the other garbage?
To misquote you evidence (culture last time) is all.
So if you could spare the time to dig up some it would save us wasting our time.
As it stands, the only value your 'contributions' have is to provide us with a close-up example of how an inarticulately rabid fanatic operates
BTW Don - do you really think he believes the shit he writes?   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM

The cretin who implicitly believes every single utterance of the Israeli government, and calls all evidence to the contrary lies or prejudice, regardless of the credibility of the source, calls us irrational.

If you mean me, I do not implicitly believe anyone.
If Israel denies something, and you have no unequivocal evidence of it, and it is not accepted as true by any reputable nation, I am entitled to say that I am not convinced.
Why are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:29 AM

It's a waste of time!

The cretin who implicitly believes every single utterance of the Israeli government, and calls all evidence to the contrary lies or prejudice, regardless of the credibility of the source, calls us irrational.

If he knew what the word means, I might be worried.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:12 AM

""The only toxic dump is where they have illegally settled.""

That little factoid has been exposed more than once.

The Bedouin were there before the dump, so why was it built right alonsid them?

Obviously to make them leave, only for ten years they've not had anywhere to go to.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM

Unless you can prove your statements you are lying.
The Bedouins live in tribes, the tribe under threat of eviction has occupied this particular territory for centuries - this is long established and recognised.
You obviously have no concept of how nomadism works
I repeat, to move them in order to make room for Jewish settlers is an act of racist fascism.

"The only toxic dump is where they have illegally settled."
Been through this - you have been given all the factors as to why this dump is toxic - you have refused to respond
The decision to move them there has been described as an international crime against humanity by the UN, which is why they have halted the move for the time being.
The "illegal" site you mention is one that has been settled because those there have no alternative (the situation with most travellers the world over, including in Britain).
The Israelis have long been fully aware of the dangerous conditions there and have, up to now ignored them, but have been forced by public outcry to acknowledge them as wrong
This month the Israeli government have blocked a bill aimed at moving the Bedouins to safer conditions - politicians eh - the same the world over!!
"The Ministerial Legislative Committee ruled on Sunday that the government would oppose a bill seeking to ban residence within a five-kilometer radius of the national hazardous waste disposal site at Ramat Hovav."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/ministers-nix-bill-to-move-bedouin-living-near-toxic-disposal-site-1.248274
The Bedouins are an oppressed minority in Israel - you still have to respond to the fact that the Israelis are using toxic sprays on their crops and livestock.

"fight for Israel against their Arab "brothers."
With one small exception this is no longer the case
"Until 2000, each year between 5%–10% of the Bedouin population of draft age volunteered for the Israeli army, and Bedouin were well known for their unique status as volunteers. The legendary Israeli soldier, Amos Yarkoni, first commander of the Shaked Reconnaissance Battalion in the Givati Brigade, was a Bedouin (born Abd el-Majid Hidr). Today the number of Bedouin in the army may be less than 1%.[232] A 2003 report stated that willingness among Bedouin to serve in the army had drastically dropped in recent years, as the Israeli government has failed to fulfill promises of equal service provision to Bedouin citizens.[233] However, a 2009 article in Haaretz stated that volunteer recruitment for a crack elite Bedouin army unit rose threefold.[234]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

You have been given evidence of the murderous clearances of the villages - over 400 of them.
Unless you can prove otherwise, your accusation that this is "made up," it is (once again, and with boring regularity) you who is lying - address the evidence, which is a proven and long established fact of history.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:57 AM

""Don, when Israel is mentioned you become irrational and lose your reason.
You are even more comical than Stringsinger's barmy bloopers!""

When that tiny sliver (to use your ridiculously misleading description) is the only state with the capacity to render any, or all, of its neighbours uninhabitable for a very long time, and it is governed by a hard line bunch of aggressive militarists who, at the first sign of a neighbour attempting to achieve military parity (not superiority) threaten to destroy that neighbour, it is not irrational or unreasonable to believe that it needs to be reined in.

At what point will you begin to see what the Israeli government is actually doing?

In 1950, the population of Israel was about 2.3 millon, of which just over half were Jewish. Today it is over 6 million, of which 75 percent are Jewish.

Looking at the map of Palestine, Israel now covers the vast majority of that area.

The Palestinians occupy the Gaza strip (now there is a tiny sliver) and a steadily eroding portion of the West Bank, where they are gradually being driven out by the establishment of Israeli settlements.

A cursory glance at the maps on the following link will confirm the way in which anything that is left of Palestine is being systematically squeezed out of existence by Israel, in the search for "lebensraum".

scroll down to maps

And when that is over, with a still increasing Israeli population, fully backed by Uncle Sam, who will be next?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:02 AM

Back already Jim?
Why so monochrome?

you still have produced no evidence to back up your denials"
You have that the wrong way around.
We await unequivocal evidence to support your assertions.
I only deny being convinced. Evidence not needed.

To move a whole community off tribal lands that they have occupied for centuries is an act of state fascism.

The Bedouin were nomads who roamed all the lands from the Arabian Sea to the Med.
That does not entitle them to build shacks or pitch tents anywhere they like today.

The fact that they intend to move them to a proven and widely recognised toxic dump is an act of potential mass murder
Same old lie Jim.
The only toxic dump is where they have illegally settled.

It is little wonder that the Israeli regime is detested and mistrusted.
Not by the Bedouin who enthusiastically fight for Israel against their Arab "brothers."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:29 AM

Won't bother to try and catch up - all been said before by the atrocity denier and his nodding dog.

"What had Israel done in 24 hours to make all those enemies?"
Possibly went from house to occupied house throwing hand grenades through the windows of Palistinian homes, making it clear what lengths they were prepared to go to t secure the Promised Land, maybe (it's all a part of history)

"Made up."
"A journey through time and consciousness, 18 tours to some of the approximately 400 Palestinian villages and urban neighborhoods, whose residents fled or were expelled in 1948. Most of their homes were wiped off the face of the earth immediately afterward, generally without even a sign.
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2012-08-31/gideon-levy-arab-villages-bulldozed-from-our-memory/

"The following night [i.e., following the riot at the Haifa refinery] the Arab village of Balad es Sheik, which lies three miles southeast of Haifa, was attacked by a strong party of armed Hagana, who entered the village dressed as Arabs under heavy covering fire from the high ground. Firing sub-machine guns and throwing grenades into the houses, they succeeded in killing 14 Arabs, of whom 10 were women and children, and wounding 11. Their own casualties were slight."
http://www.robincmiller.com/melinkfr.htm

Been there, done that, and you still have produced no evidence to back up your denials"No-one is allowed to set up home wherever they want."
To move a whole community off tribal lands that they have occupied for centuries is an act of state fascism.
The fact that this has been done in order to build homes for Jewish settlers is an act of institutional racism.
The fact that they intend to move them to a proven and widely recognised toxic dump is an act of potential mass murder, (albeit over an extended period) is a cold blooded act and an indication of ethnic cleansing.
The Bedouins who are to be expelled have occupied this land centuries before the Israelis arrived on the scene.
It is little wonder that the Israeli regime is detested and mistrusted.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:17 AM

I agree Steve.
Israel was originally hated just for existing, but why has that hate persisted?

Perhaps because, unlike the Jews, the Arabs refused to allow their refugees to settle in their vast lands.
They were kept in abject squalor and deprivation in refugee camps.
Each new generation was taught that the Jews were responsible for their plight and that they had a sacred duty fight them.

With each failed attempt to wipe out the Jews the humiliation and losses were used to fuel more hatred, and so it goes on.

Had those refugees been allowed to be productive citizens, like the Jewish ones, that original hate would indeed be forgotten and the region, with its wonderful climate, magnificent scenery and beaches and incredible historical heritage would be the most blessed and prosperous place in the world instead of a basket case beggared by 60+ years of hatred and war.

My question to you Steve.
What could the Israelis have done differently in the face of all those attempts to over run and wipe them out?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 09:28 PM

full of the enemies it's managed to make down the decades.

Not down the decades Steve.
Five Arab armies invaded Israel on its first day of existence.
What had Israel done in 24 hours to make all those enemies?

Very defensive Keith, but wide of the mark, unfortunately, because you are doing your usual instinctive blame game stuff and I am doing the de facto stuff. Israel has accumulated several generations-worth of new enemies since 1948. All those original ones are dead. By your logic (not a word I readily associate with you, actually) Israel, by now, shouldn't need the fifth biggest army on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 09:22 PM

You appear to be a resident of the land of Cuckoo in the zone beyond the clouds, oh proud American "guest".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM

President Obama's speech today in Jerusalem made me proud to be an American, a supporter of Israel, an advocate for peace and for a Palestinian state.

It is the Obamas of this world, not the Stringsingers, who will make this planet a better place.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:28 PM

No-one is allowed to set up home wherever they want.

Someone forgot to tell the thousands of West Bank settlers that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:26 PM

Wiki: Israel dropped up to four million submunitions [cluster bomblets] on Lebanese soil, one million of which remain unexploded "duds," according to the United Nations Mine Action Service. Throughout the thirty-four-day conflict, the United States resupplied Israel's arsenal of cluster bombs, which prompted an investigation by the State Department to examine if Israel had violated secret agreements it signed with the United States governing their use.
"Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Dan Halutz plans to appoint a major general to investigate the use of cluster bombs — some of which were fired against his order — during the Lebanon war. Halutz ordered the IDF to use cluster bombs with extreme caution and not to fire them into populated areas. Nonetheless, it did so anyway, primarily using artillery batteries and the Multiple Launch System (MRLS). IDF artillery, MLRS and aircraft are thought to have delivered thousands of cluster bombs, containing a total of some 4 million bomblets during the war."
Human Rights Watch said there was evidence that Israel had used cluster bombs very close to civilian areas and described them as "unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians" and that "they should never be used in populated areas." Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of using cluster munitions in an attack on Bilda, a Lebanese village, on 19 July which killed 1 civilian and injured 12, including seven children. The Israeli "army defended ... the use of cluster munitions in its offensive with Lebanon, saying that using such munitions was 'legal under international law' and the army employed them 'in accordance with international standards.'" Foreign Ministry Spokesman Mark Regev added, "[I]f NATO countries stock these weapons and have used them in recent conflicts — in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq — the world has no reason to point a finger at Israel."

Note that final dismal comment by a Keith clone there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:25 PM

full of the enemies it's managed to make down the decades.

Not down the decades Steve.
Five Arab armies invaded Israel on its first day of existence.
What had Israel done in 24 hours to make all those enemies?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM

Israel doesn't have to make a single concession, ever. In fact, it can continue to take whatever it likes with impunity, and it does. Sitting down to peace talks would involve compromises, and Israel does not have to, and won't, make any compromises. Why should it? So there will be no peace talks and no Palestinian state. That is the last thing Israel wants, a sovereign state right next door full of the enemies it's managed to make down the decades. The reason for this parlous stalemate is the continuing unconditional bankrolling of Israel's military by the US. That will continue to be unconditional because the Israel lobby, led by AIPAC, does not permit any talk of making aid to Israel conditional on Israel's good behaviour. Actually, there is rarely, if ever, any real talk about what really goes in Israel at all in the US Congress. It is simply not tolerated by AIPAC et al. To go against that, to stir anything up, would be political suicide. To find out what is really happening to the Palestinians you have to dig much deeper than most Americans are willing to dig. Israel is a little tail leading a huge great big dog by the nose. Witness Obama's soft talk in Jerusalem today. He's going nowhere and neither are the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM

.Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come.Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come. Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza. Using white phosphorus to light the way for bombing schools. Stealing the best land for settlements. Throwing Bedouins out of their villages. Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps. Any chance of your going through these one by one and telling me how each of them adds up to a "security precaution"

OK Steve.
That hazard from cluster bombs was not recognised at the time.
Most countries used them.
Since it became known, responsible countries like Britain and Israel have ceased to stock or use them.
Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza.
Made up.
Throwing Bedouins out of their villages.
No-one is allowed to set up home wherever they want.
Bedouin who have done that have been resettled from their tents and shacks with no services or sanitation into decent homes.

Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps.
Israel denies ever having done that, and there is no unequivocal evidence for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:54 PM

And as I have said before, Israeli governmental policy is apparently not interested in peace in the region but a continuation of dominance over the Palestinian people.

Here's a problem to discuss rationally and not with invective. Hamas and Fatah are a problem for the Palestinian people because they are not together and have antiquated policies. Hamas is not supported unilaterally by the Palestinian people in Gaza. To punish the Palestinian people for Hamas is the ignorant reaction of the Israeli government who incites this terrible reaction.

The settlements in Ariel, Ma'ale Adumin are designed to cut the West Bank into strips and deny the Palestinians the Statehood that they deserve. An illegal occupation is not
self-defense.

Now I expect that we can discuss this without temper tantrums and childish outbursts.

I deplore violence of any kind but I see that the policies of Israel with support from the United States are not in the interest of peace but Israeli expansionism. This has to change.

Peace will come when Palestinians are given a right to their homeland as Israel requires for its self.

The U.S. has got to stop giving Israel armaments that amount to $115 billion a year. This is more than we have given any other country for weaponry.

Taking sides on this issue by proclaiming self-righteous condemnation will not make peace in the region happen. It is the responsibility of course of Israel and the Palestinians but status quo is not the answer.

In the meantime, if the U.S. continues to take sides by supplying one country with weaponry and ignoring Palestinian prisoners subjected to torture, the abuse of Palestinian people, the starving by controlling the amount of goods these people can receive, by keeping them from actually having any semblance of a democracy, they will not be an honest broker.

Israel will never be a democracy in the truest sense until there is a parity between Palestinians and themselves. They will continue to be dictators.

Now that's a real fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM

What is your evidence for dismissing Freedom House?

So we're supposed to give credence to an extremely crude three-point scale, eh? Come on, Keith. You'll have to do better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

UNHCR.
"Freedom House is a clear voice for democracy and freedom around the world. Since its founding in 1941, Freedom House has been a vigorous proponent of democratic values and a steadfast opponent of dictatorships of the far left and the far right"
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher/FREEHOU.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

And here's how it should have looked:

You forgot to mention that they have their missile firing and suicide bomber brethren to thank for the security precautions so I will do it for you. You're welcome.

Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come. Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza. Using white phosphorus to light the way for bombing schools. Stealing the best land for settlements. Throwing Bedouins out of their villages. Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps. Any chance of your going through these one by one and telling me how each of them adds up to a "security precaution?"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM

You forgot to mention that they have their missile firing and suicide bomber brethren to thank for the security precautions so I will do it for you. You're welcome.

Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come. Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza. Using white phosphorus to light the way for bombing schools. Stealing the best land for settlements. Throwing Bedouins out of their villages. Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps. Any chance of your going through these one by one and telling me how each of them adds up to a "security precaution?"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM

What is your evidence for dismissing Freedom House?
Is it not widely respected and quoted?

What is your evidence for depleted uranium munitions in Gaza?
They are only useful for piercing armour so I do not believe it.

To sound like a broken record, there are many Jews in the world who don't consider Israel as a complete "Jewish State".
Obviously, because it is not!
It is multi ethnic and multi faith.
They don't believe it represents them in their religion.
Obviously, because it does not.
It is a secular state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM

And here's one for you to consider: Gaza rockets hit Israeli town during Obama visit