Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists

freda underhill 05 Feb 13 - 07:44 AM
GUEST 05 Feb 13 - 07:53 AM
freda underhill 05 Feb 13 - 07:57 AM
freda underhill 05 Feb 13 - 08:23 AM
Donuel 05 Feb 13 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 05 Feb 13 - 01:35 PM
Ebbie 05 Feb 13 - 01:50 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM
Ron Davies 05 Feb 13 - 03:19 PM
Bill D 05 Feb 13 - 03:24 PM
jacqui.c 05 Feb 13 - 03:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Feb 13 - 03:32 PM
mayomick 05 Feb 13 - 03:32 PM
Donuel 05 Feb 13 - 03:41 PM
Don Firth 05 Feb 13 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,Futwick 05 Feb 13 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,CS 05 Feb 13 - 04:53 PM
Little Hawk 05 Feb 13 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 05 Feb 13 - 05:17 PM
Little Hawk 05 Feb 13 - 05:33 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Feb 13 - 06:22 PM
Jeri 05 Feb 13 - 06:45 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Feb 13 - 08:43 PM
Donuel 05 Feb 13 - 09:56 PM
Donuel 05 Feb 13 - 10:10 PM
Donuel 05 Feb 13 - 11:02 PM
Little Hawk 06 Feb 13 - 12:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 13 - 12:56 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 06 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Feb 13 - 06:16 PM
gnu 06 Feb 13 - 08:45 PM
Jeri 06 Feb 13 - 08:55 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Feb 13 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,Futwick 06 Feb 13 - 09:16 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Feb 13 - 09:31 PM
gnu 06 Feb 13 - 09:37 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Feb 13 - 09:48 PM
gnu 06 Feb 13 - 10:06 PM
freda underhill 06 Feb 13 - 11:24 PM
GUEST,Futwick 06 Feb 13 - 11:27 PM
Musket 07 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM
GUEST,Stim 07 Feb 13 - 10:27 PM
Janie 07 Feb 13 - 11:03 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 08 Feb 13 - 07:36 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 13 - 08:08 AM
Musket 08 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM
Jack the Sailor 08 Feb 13 - 10:43 AM
Jeri 08 Feb 13 - 10:55 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: The 10 Commandments for athiests
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 07:44 AM

I just came across these (see end of article) - and I think they're a pretty useful set of tips for anyone, whether a person who has some sort of faith or spiritual practise, or someone who doesn't.

Alain de Botton's 10 commandments for non-believers


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for athiests
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 07:53 AM

They're brilliant.
Thanks for taking the time to share them, Freda.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for athiests
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 07:57 AM

Yes, I thought so too, Guest. I have an "inspiration" folder that I save things in (articles, music, health tips) and this one is going in there too.

:-D


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for athiests
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:23 AM

Alain de Botton's 'list for life'

Resilience: Keeping going even when things are looking dark.

Empathy: The capacity to connect imaginatively with the sufferings and unique experiences of another person.

Patience: We should grow calmer and more forgiving by being more realistic about how things actually happen.

Sacrifice: We won't ever manage to raise a family, love someone else or save the planet if we don't keep up with the art of sacrifice.

Politeness: Politeness is closely linked to tolerance, -the capacity to live alongside people whom one will never agree with, but at the same time, cannot avoid.

Humour: Like anger, humour springs from disappointment, but it is disappointment optimally channelled.

Self-awareness: To know oneself is to try not to blame others for one's troubles and moods; to have a sense of what's going on inside oneself, and what actually belongs to the world.

Forgiveness: It's recognising that living with others is not possible without excusing errors.

Hope: Pessimism is not necessarily deep, nor optimism shallow.

Confidence: Confidence is not arrogance - rather, it is based on a constant awareness of how short life is and how little we will ultimately lose from risking everything.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for athiests
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 10:50 AM

George Carlin whittled the 10 commandments down to one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 01:35 PM

Call me thick,(my kids do) but whilst the term atheist is a subjective one, surely the idea of atheism is that you don't need nor want a Creed or set of rules?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 01:50 PM

Not only that but - 'commanded' by Whom? :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM

Not only that, but an atheist is not a "non-believer." I'm an atheist but I do not not believe in God. I don't deal in belief or non-belief in this particular sphere. God is someone else's notion. All I can do is assess whatever evidence there is for and against the notion. I'm an atheist because I've concluded that the evidence against God's claimed existence so far outweighs the evidence in favour (not difficult) that the probability of his existing is vanishingly small. Belief don't enter into it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:19 PM

"tolerance"   Now there's a concept.    Unfortunately seems to be a real deal-breaker for a number of Mudcat atheists.    It was a nice thought, though. Better luck next time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:24 PM

In the article. the author says: " de Botton has done a marvellous job of summing up what it is to be a nice human being."

So I wonder why 'atheist' and 'non-believer' have to be equated and named in order to just provide a nice list of virtues?

I never wrote out a list like that, but I have always tried to act in such a way that such a list might describe me. Now, if 'believers' would all do the same, those apocryphal stone tablets might not be needed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:32 PM

Good guides to live by. Not always easy to follow, but worth a try.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:32 PM

""Call me thick,(my kids do) but whilst the term atheist is a subjective one, surely the idea of atheism is that you don't need nor want a Creed or set of rules?""

The polite answer is that an Atheist doesn't believe in a Deity, or in the religions which support such beliefs.

It does not mean that he is devoid of need for a set of behaviour imperatives by which he can live a decent and respectable life.

Whether you call them rules, or commandments, is immaterial. The point is that they are self generated or inspired by respected others and accepted, then form the framework within which he lives his life.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:32 PM

Maybe they could read the ten atheist commandments at the atheist church opened recently in London .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/03/atheist-church-sunday-assembly-islington


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 03:41 PM

please not another god said she said thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 04:11 PM

Carl Sandburg said that they forgot to include the Eleventh Commandment. If they had, there would be no need for the preceding ten, because the Eleventh Commandment covered them all:
Thou shalt not commit nincompoopery.
Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 04:39 PM

As an atheist, I reject the atheist commandments. What is moral or ethical is a chosen course not a commanded one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 04:53 PM

"What is moral or ethical is a chosen course not a commanded one."

Well put.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:08 PM

Whether they are "commandments" or suggestions or just "good advice" (advisements), it's an excellent list of recommendations for any sensible person to follow, whether or not they are atheistic or religious or mystical or anything else along that line. It's a good set of ideas to live by.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:17 PM

Not saying they aren't good sense.

But I trust myself to live a fairly moral life without a subjective comfort blanket to use for audit purpose.

The concept of commandments for atheists is a way of saying there is a need for religion after all.   And frankly I find that insulting. .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:33 PM

There is a vital need for having a coherent ethical philosophy of some sort to guide your conduct if you plan on living life as a thinking human being who is capable of examining and assessing his own actions honestly, and not just in the light of his own immediate gain, but with regard to the general welfare of all the other lives around him, all of which are valuable, just like his.

And it was a concern about that which produced the list...and which produces most serious religious inquiry and most serious philosophical inquiry as well, out of which has arisen what we term "civilization" (as opposed to the Law of the Jungle).

If you don't give a shit about anyone but yourself, on the other hand, then such a list of ethical considerations is of no use to you at all...nor are any social "rules", ethics, or civil laws. And neither are you of any use to anyone at all...because you are, in effect, an outlaw.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:22 PM

The polite answer is that an Atheist doesn't believe in a Deity...

Well I'm an atheist and I see no reason to not believe in a deity. It is far more accurate to say that I don't know whether there's a deity or not. I can hardly leave it at that, though, because that sounds like I'm undecided in an on-the-fence way. Au contraire. I've decided that the possibility of the existence of a deity is so infinitesimally small that I can ignore it for the purpose of how I choose to live my life. I've come to that conclusion by considering evidence. There's a chance I could be wrong. I'm an atheist because I see that chance as being about as likely as the tenth planet of Proxima Centauri being made of green cheese. It's an assertion that cannot be disproven yet for which there is no evidence.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:45 PM

I think the list of commandments makes sense for everyone, but I wouldn't think most atheists need someone they don't know telling them how to not act like an asshole. I also believe people who are already assholes won't pay any attention to commandments.

In short, it's as if all those "10 commandments for atheists" boil down to "don't be a jerk". If people don't know how to follow THAT once they reach adulthood, they'll likely suffer somewhat for it.

To treat atheism as a separate system of beliefs is bullshit. It's like asking someone what sort of car they like, and then telling the ones who don't actually drive a car that their car type is a "non car". You can't make what isn't into a different type of "is".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:43 PM

Good stuff, Jeri.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:56 PM

'What is moral or ethical is a chosen course not a commanded one' but it is based more upon one's enviorment.

A boy raised in a back water babtist town among violent craven people who only profess pure religiosity, may not have the morality of a boy raised by two ethical atheist educators in NY.

The thing is little kids can't chose their enviorment.

I certainly don't view athiests as people with no cars in a nation of car drivers. That sounds self serving for the lucky religionists who are the only ones priviledged, trusted and allowed to drive.

But its fine to root for your home team if you want. Just don't be an ass hole about it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 10:10 PM

Along LH lines I believe you can not teach some people empathy no matter how much religion you put in their heads and hearts. It may help many in the spectrum of social psychopathy but there is nothing that can replace true empathy which is a matter of nature, not religion nor is it an emergent product of athieism.

Interact in a large group and it will be hard to dectect who is religious and who are athiests but it is damn easy to spot people who are unempathetic or those who have no empathy at all.
If this experience is not true for you, you may be the one lacking empathy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 11:02 PM

There are religious people who preach about empathy but do not have any developed right brain functionality of empathy.

An example of a religious person with no empathy at all would be a priest who rapes little children. How could anyone with true empathy commit such a horrific act?

There are two other possibilities which may warp priests into monsters and that would be those who had also been abused as a child or, number 2, low empathetic natural homosexuals who were twisted into an obscenity by the conflicting religious decree of celibacy.


On the other side of the coin there may be atheist people who teach ethics but may never employ ethics as a guiding priciple in their own lives.
A better example may be a Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld who feel very little destorying countless lives not because of any religion or lack of it but due to a principle they believe in that supercedes ethics or morality, patriotism that pays hard cash.

Commandments may be well intentioned but the spectrum of inate human talents and abilities and disabilities differ enough to make certain people immune from good advice to the core of their being, with or without religion. For most of use endowed with Empathy, empathy is enough for the basic morality of society, The higher teachings still require education be it a secular golden rule or religious law.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 12:35 PM

That's right, Donuel. Having or not having empathy for others is the key issue. Most religions devote a great deal of concern to the issue of empathy, but that doesn't mean that all members of those religions get the message. Some of them don't. Most philosophies pay a good deal of attention to the issue of empathy as well...or at least one would hope they would! But that doesn't mean that adherents to those philosophies will necessarily display empathy.

"Commandments" was the word that arose out of the ancient Hebrew culture from which came the books of the Old Testament. That was a society full of commands that were coming down from various patriarchal authority figures, so it's not surprising they would have used the term "commandments" for a set of religious instructions said to be emanating from God. They saw God as they saw their own patriarchs...a being invested with great power and authority, a being easily moved to anger, etc...

The later developments of Christianity tended to move more in the direction of a God of love...and love is based upon empathy.

We are also said to have been given free will.

If we have been given free will, then no one can command us!

Or if they do, then we can choose to disobey the command. And we sometimes do disobey commands, no matter who they are coming from, whether it be our parents, our teachers, the local government, the police, the national government, the club president....or God (presuming we can entertain that concept).

So...the ancient Hebrews called those statements "Commandments", because that fit their mindset at the time, and that seems to offend some people.

Okay, they might just as well have called those statements "suggestions" or "guidelines" or "good advice", which is exactly what they are, and what the stuff in the article is. The fact that they chose to call them "commandments" has little to do with the statements themselves, and a great deal to do with the nature of that ancient patriarchal, very authoritative society.

There's no point in people getting upset now over an expression of language that came out of an ancient tribal society, when the basic message contained in the "commandments" is a perfectly understandable set of instructions on how NOT to be an antisocial and destructive asshole in the normal terms of the society of that time.

And that's what the set of "commandments for atheists" is in the linked article as well. It's simply a group of suggestions on how not to be an antisocial jerk. The only reason the article even called it "commandments" at all was to symbolically link it to the Christian religious commandments which we already know about, thereby making a premise for having such an article in the first place.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 12:56 PM

""Well I'm an atheist and I see no reason to not believe in a deity. It is far more accurate to say that I don't know whether there's a deity or not. I can hardly leave it at that, though, because that sounds like I'm undecided in an on-the-fence way. Au contraire. I've decided that the possibility of the existence of a deity is so infinitesimally small that I can ignore it for the purpose of how I choose to live my life.
Well I'm an atheist and I see no reason to not believe in a deity. It is far more accurate to say that I don't know whether there's a deity or not. I can hardly leave it at that, though, because that sounds like I'm undecided in an on-the-fence way. Au contraire. I've decided that the possibility of the existence of a deity is so infinitesimally small that I can ignore it for the purpose of how I choose to live my life. I've come to that conclusion by considering evidence. There's a chance I could be wrong. I'm an atheist because I see that chance as being about as likely as the tenth planet of Proxima Centauri being made of green cheese. It's an assertion that cannot be disproven yet for which there is no evidence.
""

Surely Steve, that is the description, in fact the definition of an agnostic, not an atheist.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM

Not so, Don. If you consider what I said, there is only one further step beyond my position, which would be to declare that there is definitely no God. You won't even get Richard Dawkins to say that. He places himself on his own 7-point scale of certainty about the non-existence of God at 6.9. The problem is that neither word, atheist nor agnostic, is very useful. Fence-sitting "agnosticism", the usual kind, contains a spectrum within itself: it can cover the truly uncertain (a rare breed, I think, as the genuine article), the spineless who fear the consequences of invoking the wrath of a God they don't even know for sure exists, insurance-seekers and the don't-give-a-shits. The kind of "agnosticism" you accuse me of is a very different beast to all of those. My dismissal of God is based purely on my consideration of the evidence (I threw "faith" out of the window decades ago). I have a bust of Beethoven next to me on my computer desk. I'm now going to reach out and pat Ludwig on the head. In the split second it takes my hand to reach him, there's chance he'll vanish in a puff of busted atoms (I understand that quantum theory allows for the possibility of this). The chances of it happening are hundreds of trillions to one against. That allows to me live my life assuming it won't happen. It does not allow me to say that it will definitely not happen. It allows you to say to me that I don't know that it won't happen, but it's a hell of a stretch to then accuse me of being "agnostic" about it. See above on lack of usefulness of the word. That's about where I am with God. What I'm saying is that you seem to be telling me that the only true atheists are those who, mistakenly, declare that there is certainly no God. If the word "atheist" is to be of any use at all (and I don't like it much at all myself), then you have to apply it to people like me. Otherwise, let's ditch it. It's a bastard word in any case, defined only by the existence of the delusional believers (if no-one had ever come up with the God notion, there would be neither believers nor atheists). Paradoxically, applying the word "atheist" to myself immediately puts me into believer territory, as would the term "non-believer". Those words beginning with "a-" or "non-" define me in terms of God. Seems rather unfair to me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM

If stamp collectors had a term for non stamp collectors I am sure the term would be derogatory or condescending.

Hence I suspect that differing terms for rational people such as atheist or agnostic are not exactly positive words when used by superstitious people.

Me? I call myself neither. I am irreligious. With all due respect to stamp collectors they don't affect me and I don't affect them. But if they did try to influence law to their benefit and my detriment I would reserve the right to treat them with disdain.

Im thinking Sundays opening hours and gay /women /peoplr who don't read from the same book of fairy stories as them equality here but I could be tedious and extend the list...

I also note that altruism has a Darwinian angle to it. So what price commandments or other obvious nonsense. I don't kill or covet my neighbours tits for the simple reason it is wrong. I don't need buggering priests to remind me. (Mind you, if she's selling those puppies I'll have the one with the pink nose. Did I type that out loud?)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:16 PM

It's fine to covet your neighbour's tits as long as you keep your bloody coveting to yourself. Neither my neighbour, her tits, nor my neighbour's hubby have ever suffered from my coveting of her titties, as I've always kept it to meself.

"Irreligious" is yet another of those words that automatically casts the person so described in the negative in relation to deluded believers. Were it not for misguided people inventing and/or following religion, you would never need to apply that term to yourself. By inventing themselves they invented the reluctant you as well. Don't let 'em get away with it by making up words for you!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: gnu
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:45 PM

Cool posts! After reading them, my take is two things.

Jeri summed one up - "don't be a jerk". It really is that simple, although it really is complex fer the stunned as me arse and there seems to be a lot of them

The second is troubling for me. Atheists who deem themselves of higher "intelligence" seem not to grasp the reasons for religion and the good it has done over untold years (don't bother to post about the bad stuff... that just shows you don't acknowledge the good stuff... assuming, of course, that you have any knowledge of the role religion played in the development of where we are today).

Believe in a higher power than me? No. I believe in what my religion actually says (which many don't understand, especially atheists) and what I believe my religion says is... I... me and only me... am God to me. God is within me. I choose to do right or wrong. No one else makes that choice. I have to answer to me and to all others. If I am a "God fearing man", I fear ME and MY choices. If I pledge fellowship within a religion I am not pledging servitude to a "ghost". I am pledging allegiance to me and my fellows. I am about as atheist as one can get and still believe that "God" exists... because I am he within the context of what I believe my religion truly teaches - the same as the religion of Jeri... "Don't be a jerk."

Offer void for door to door salesmen.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:55 PM

Gnu, I understood that. Scary.

I don't think not believing and deities means I have to be free from wonder or not be spiritual in other ways. I love this quote from Babylon 5 (one of the best science fiction shows EVER), and think it makes perfect sense, although open to interpretation (which is good):
"The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff. We are the Universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out. And, as we have both learned, sometimes the Universe needs a change of perspective."
--Ambassador Delenn, Babylon 5


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:07 PM



(Whilst denying the higher intelligence bit out of sheer humility...) Yes, we do grasp it. Because we say that God almost certainly doesn't exist, we don't go on to say that everything that has emanated from the God notion is evil. There are great cathedrals, great art, great music and a good deal of beneficial social bonding that has come out of religion. Equally, there is just as much secular art, architecture, music and social life that has had nothing to do with religion. Religion, I have to admit, is a foundation for community spirit in many societies. Like a sort of social glue. We heathens tend to be individualistic. We lack those organisations and traditions that can seem to give religion an edge in society. But that is not to say that only religion can produce those goodies. We atheists just have to try harder, that's all. There's nothing wrong with our moral codes, common decency and sense of social understanding. We're just not as good at getting our act together, that's all. We're too ruggedly-individualistic. Not joiners, sort of thing. But we're still good eggs.

As for the bad stuff, you won't catch me rattling on about that. Most of the "bad stuff done in the name of religion" was not done in the name of religion at all, but in the name of imperialism/stealing someone else's stuff. I do think that religion is pretty rotten in general and that belief in God stunts the intellect, and I could argue the fat all night about that, but that's a different issue.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:16 PM

All the good religion has done? Such as what? Charities? You can do charity all you want without a religion. Beyond that, I am frankly stumped as to what this "good" is that religion has done.

Compare that to the bad and there is no comparison. Religion has done questionable good that could have easily been done without a religious conviction and it has done a far more bad that cannot have been done without a religious conviction.

Religion is useless. What is needed is philosophy. When someone says, "I don't covet my neighbors tits" he has no understanding of how his mind works. You can't control what you covet and what you don't. People think they control their own thoughts, they do not. IF you control your own thoughts then stop thinking right now and make your mind a total blank. You can't. Why? Because you can't control your thoughts. So ask yourself, if you don't control your own thoughts then what does? Where do those thoughts originate?

As for "I choose to do good and bad" that's not really true either. You choose to do what YOU BELIEVE is good or bad. In fact, the vast majority of people who do bad believed they were doing something good or at least were not doing anything with the idea of doing bad in mind. But regardless, you can't do good or bad, you can only do what you believe is such and you will be judged by others according to what they believe is good or bad. When you are all in concordance on the matter then things will be fine. When you are not, things will not be so fine.

For instance, a Kuwaiti man was recently sentenced to prison. For what? He went on Twitter and spoke ill of Kuwait's emir whom the Kuwaiti govt hold is inviolable. Did he do wrong in your belief? I'll bet not. But ask a Kuwaiti and you'll get a very different answer.

As for fearing yourself, why should you do that except that you do not understand how your mind works? If you understand it, what is there to fear?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:31 PM

Whether or not you happen to think that religion has done more good/less good/a bit of good/a bit of harm/much harm is beside the point in a way. The bottom line, really, is whether God exists. I'm not going to argue about whether religion has given people their moral code or innate goodness. For all I know, it might have. But I also know that we heathens have just as many damn good people in our ranks. But does God exist? If he doesn't, then all these goodly religious people had better work out whether they couldn't be just as good without him. I think they could, personally. Also, if he doesn't, billions of people, by subscribing to him, have given up a huge chunk of their free thinking and intellectual prowess, and that's serious. Ironically, God would hate that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: gnu
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:37 PM

Well said Steve... right up to "... belief in God stunts the intellect...". I believe in God. Just not in the God you think I believe in, and my God is the same God that most Cat'lics believe in (just my opinion). Those that I know anyway, and I dare to extrapolate. I figure I can extrapolate even further... to include you according to your beliefs as posted herein (you believe in you). I don't think we are too far apart.

In any case, it's all a cluster fuck. I will always be a TRUE Cat'lic but I will always tithe to the Church of Saint Jeri.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:48 PM

Well I'm hanging on to the point about belief stunting the intellect. No matter how Spock-like you are in other areas of thinking, if you believe in God you have forced a small piece of your mind to suspend all belief in the laws of nature and forced it to "explain" complicated things (the universe, all life on Earth, etc.) by interpolating something infinitely more complicated, that defies all known laws, that has no beginning or end and for which we have no evidence (God). What a cop-out. You lie down in the face of tradition, uncorroborated ancient texts, witness and edicts from holy men. You suspend all critical analysis in that area of thought. If that isn't intellectual stunting, well I don't know what is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: gnu
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 10:06 PM

Futwick... I assume you need at least twenty more years under your belt to take the edge off yer attitude. I would ask you to Google mothert (that's her rap rep in the hood) fer a start but I don't think you'd get that ref bro. Chill and read a book eh? And pray you don't end up on the doorstep of Nazareth House lookin fer food and shelter with that attitude. I'd rather see my donations used in better ways than helpin you out of a bind. Of course, if you did need my help, I would help even tho all indications are you wouldn't do the same for me.

God bless. (Read... fuck off.)

Yet again... I gotta reduce my BP... gnightgnu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:24 PM

I guess "commandments" and "athiests" are loaded words, to me the heading was tongue in cheek but has generated a lot of discussion about related concepts.

unwanted advice can be a real pain in the neck and sorry to those who took this thread as that.

great quote from Ambassador Delenn, Babylon 5 (have not seen this in Australia),and thanks for the many thoughtful posts.

re "the molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside" - I have been doing artwork on this theme for a few years - if you'd like to see something, pm me your email address and I'll send you a couple of examples.

Look forward to reading more of the infinite dancing molecules that make up the thoughts in mudcatter minds

freda


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:27 PM

If I ask for someone's help, I expect them to help me because I asked not because they are a Christian. If they only help me because of the latter reason then it is self-serving. At the root of all religious altruism, that's what what you will find--people in it for themselves for one reason: they think by doing "the lord's work" they are going to go to heaven. So they are doing this stuff for themselves and nothing else.

Moreover, you know perfectly well that it is true or you wouldn't be so pissed off at my bringing it up (talk about needing to take en edge off some attitude I think I just took some off yours).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Musket
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

ah but Steve, my fantasy was a loaded point.

Purposely put on the basis that my neighbours both sides don't have tits, or at least not in the way my post put it. One side is a holiday let (mine to be precise and I don't covet my own tits) and the other an old bloke whose purpose in life is walking his dog and occasionally mine, bless him.

Yet many people bring their fantasy into the debate, ie God. Just thought I'd introduce another fantasy, one that man has held true throughout time, just like theirs. A fascination with tits.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 10:27 PM

This is the same stupid discussion that you always have. My question, why do you even bother?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:03 PM

"Don't be a jerk." Love it.

I really don't care what motivates a person to try to "not be a jerk." Frame it in terms of moral imperative or simple choice. Doesn't matter. What matters is a critical mass of people who try, not always successfully, to "not be jerks." As long as there are enough people who mostly try to not be jerks, we will likely get by.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:36 AM

some people can be so touchy.how about the word "materialist" ie advocating that there are no deities or spiritual entities.
me- i promise not to be offended if i am called a "non materialist" or "non atheist"
have a nice day.pete.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:08 AM

Who's "advocating"? You think what you bloody want. I just tell you what I think. You wish to continue with your life's delusion, feel free. In fact, I advocate it. And perhaps you could apprise us of what "material" has to do with this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Musket
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM

I know what I think, but if I laid them out, I might be accused of having a creed.

If you get by in life with comfort blanket such as an imaginary friend or fairies at the bottom of the garden, then fine. Just don't lobby to teach it to impressionable children in school.

This thread started by laying out, not unreasonably, a list of things that if taken into account would make you seem reasonable to reasonable people. The issue was when some people, some of which I am surprised to see advocate it, reckoned if you don't have a set of rules to live by, you must be a hedonist or even, as I read, an outlaw.

Sod that.

The need for rules is a need for religion. Seriously, you can get really pissed off when people say that without knowing the boundaries, anarchy will prevail or some other such tosh. The boundaries are altruism, and exhibited by communal animals, insects and even plants in the way Darwin suggested.

if you need to be submissive to others in order to be good, then fine. Just don't shout about it being a virtue. Dogs start fretting when they feel they are alpha male. Shout at them and don't let them have their own way, and they are far more relaxed as someone else has the responsibility. Perhaps an argument for religion being a hard wired pack animal instinct.

if it were though, how come the majority of people in The UK see through it and dismiss it as medieval superstition?

Einstein was dismissive of the term atheist. He said that logically, it means you believe in nothing, and that everything is chance. He said that isn't the answer, as every day, gravity works as measured. I think about that when I am referred to as an atheist, and it makes me uncomfortable. But nothing like as uncomfortable as when the god botherers try filling the gap for me..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM

Einstein was dismissive of the term atheist. He said that logically, it means you believe in nothing, and that everything is chance.

He was wrong. He didn't realise that belief don't enter into it. His fiddle teacher thought he wasn't much good and I doubt I'd have trusted him with my roast chicken recipes. But when it came to science, well that's a different ball game innit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:43 AM

I have a lot of thoughts about this thread.


Alain de Botton's mission is to give non-believers the same access to what he believes are the benefits of religion and religious practitioners get from their practices. I haven't heard him separate people into the classes of Athiest and Non-Athiest. Have any of you?

So the entire premise of this long debate is a misinterpretation of Mr. de Botton's work by an Australian reporter?

A word on a list is NOT and commandment. Even when there are 10 words on the list. Mr. de Botton is saying that society and the individual are better off when this list is considered in daily life. In spite of what the Australian reporter believes, no one is being commanded to do anything. As usual among the atheists on this thread, Bill D totally gets it. For most of the rest of you, Mr. de Botton might suggest that you read the source material more carefully and to try to apply 2,3,5,6 & 7. Especially 7.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:55 AM

Maybe I got that whole "Don't be a jerk" thing from Abraham Lincoln, who said, "Be excellent to each other....and....PARTY ON, DUDES!" (In Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure [1989])


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 2 December 11:13 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.