What is Rock 'n Roll???

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

"really easy to make up harmonies to"

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 12:28 PM

Everyone has a slightly different opinion about what constitutes the Rock 'n' Roll Era, but many date it from the release of "Rock Around the Clock" in 1954.

It probably ended the night the Beatles first played on the Ed Sullivan Show.

Not every artist with a hit record during that time played RR.

Nor was every song by a Rock 'n' Roller was RR.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM

I would date the start of rocknroll to be 1952 with Johnny Ace. Although it was R&B he was doing, rocknroll began to be a culture about that time because Johnny was popular with the white kids as well as the black kids. So some white girl would call the local station and dedicate a Johnny Ace tune like "Never Let Me Go" or something to some dreamy boy at her school and they would dance to his more frenetic numbers like "Don't You Know" at the drugstore after school. It was the start of rocknroll as a culture.

As a music, it started in 1954 with Elvis although Bill Haley also deserves credit.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:09 PM

That's funny... I never thought of Bill Haley as too rocky... I mean, there were blues players out there laying down rock 'n roll way back into the 40's and early 50's...

One guy, Dan Pickett, a white blues player from the late 40's was ten times rockier than Bill Haley and the Comets...

Elvis??? Yeah, but he was doing old blues when he came on the scene... "Hound Dog" was old blues... "Mystery Train"... Old blues... I mean, them songs rocked out pretty good for their time...

B~

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:25 PM

If I were to say what my choice for the first RR song, I would suggest "Move It On Over" by Hank Williams, 1947.

Bill Haley's song is more/less a concensus pick.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 03:16 PM

Bill Haley was the first white man to openly perform black music. That's what rocknroll is--a mixture of white and black styles into one. He was hooked into the people that were bringing it about. "Rock Around the Clock" was produced by Milt Gabler who was one of the authors of Louis Jordan's "Choo-Choo-Cha-Boogie" which many believe to be the start of jump blues--the immediate precursor of rocknroll (Freed actually WAS calling it rocknroll because that is the stuff he played on his Moondog program which I have recordings of).

People back then weren't aware that "Choo-Choo-Cha-Boogie" was actually written by three white men. Hillbilly songwriters at that. Sam Phillips took credit as being the first producer to recognize the necessity of finding a white man to sing black music but that's really not true. Johnny Mercer was doing that back when he founded Capitol Records in '42. "Rock Around the Clock" IS rocknroll. And all the people I know who were alive back then tell me that the first rocknroll they ever heard was Bill Haley.

Elvis may have did old blues but I don't know why that doesn't qualify as doing the first true rocknroll. He did those songs with a country twang and that was a totally new sound. He also jacked up "Blue Moon of Kentucky" and even Bill Munroe admitted he liked it. I consider that rocknroll--the melding of black and white styles into a new hybrid that took on a life of its own.

Anyone who thinks blues is separate from rocknroll must have never heard of George Thorogood, Stevie Ray Vaughan, ZZ Topp or Jimi Hendrix. All blues artists immensely popular in the rock world and perhaps the last decent acts America has turned out. Without blues, there would probably never have been a British rock scene--the Animals, the Yardbirds, the Stones, Zeppelin, Savoy Brown, Jethro Tull, Black Sabbath, Foghat, Fleetwood Mac, etc. All blues bands. I have old radio ads for record stores in the 50s advertising to kids all their latest rocknroll favorites and one of the songs he mentioned was "You Upsets Me Baby" by B.B. King. Much of rocknroll IS blues. Every rock band had a few blues songs in their repertoires.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:07 PM

Submitted for your consideration, from Helen Humes Be Baba Leba-1945

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:08 PM

Beg to differ with ya, DDT...

Dan Pickett beat him to it...

B~

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:36 PM

And, DDT, "Bill Haley was the first white man to openly perform black music." is just completely, absolutely, and totally wrong.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 06:55 PM

Lotsa kinds of music went into Rock 'n' Roll. Western Swing, Boogie Woogie, Bluegrass, Rhythm 'n' Blues, Blues, and yes, Country.

I have a few cuts of guitar great Charlie Gracie doing Boogie Woogie in 1951.

Bill Haley did Western Swing from about 1948-1952, but did some Boogie Woogie stuff too.

Carl Perkins did tough club dates playing an electric guitar and doing dance music between 1951 and 1954. Even did "Rose of Old Kentucky" as a dance number before Elvis did.

The Post War period from 1945-54 is a real mystery to most folks, at least it is now.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:09 PM

You can always find some white guy before Haley that you can claim was doing black music. Hell, we can go all the way back to the ragtime era and minstrelsy before that but every single person I know who was alive at that period says Bill Haley was the first rocknroll they heard--even before Elvis. "Crazy Man Crazy" and "Rock Around the Clock" were the songs everyone remembers. None of them remembers a white man doing anything like that before then.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 12:35 PM

In response to this thread, I've ordered three CDs from the 50s RR Era and read at least 40 articles on the subject.

The old WWW is amazing.

Only thread right now that's any fun.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:28 PM

Then your friends hadn't heard She Won't Be My Baby No More-Carlisle Brothers 1946, or the Delmore Brothers.

Bill Haley and company were about the first white rock'n'roll to become teen idols-but that isn't the same as being the first to play the music.

PDQ(and anyone else who is having fun with this)--if you don't have it already, download "Spotify", and register (it's free)--it's an online jukebox program which allows you to listen to songs, albums, and playlists from others. Then search for "Dave Bartholomew" or "The Treniers" or "Amos Milburn" or "Big Jay McNealy", and rock til you drop.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM

No. They never heard of those nor of Harry tHipster Gibson but I habe all stuff and much more.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:49 PM

Haven't thought about Harry the Hipster in a while...

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:32 PM

A pretty good CD set is "The Roots of Rock N Roll--1946-1954". I bought it at a record store that stocks everything but since stores like that are disappearing, you can order it off Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Roots-Rock-N-Roll-1946-1954/dp/B0001XAQVY

It's a good crash course in learning about the pioneers--Roy Milton, the Delmore Bros., Sticks McGhee, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, Wynonie Harris, Paul "Hucklebuck" Williams, Wild Bill Moore, The Ravens, Jimmy and Joe Liggins, Peppermint Harris, Tiny Bradshaw, Ruth Brown, Howlin' Wolf, Billy Ward & the Dominoes, the Clovers, Big Mama Thornton, Hank Ballard, Amos Milburn, Little Junior, The Orioles, Little Willie Littlefield, Faye Adams, Guitar Slim, The Chords, The 5 Royales, etc.

Try to find Todd Rhodes' "Blues for the Red Boy" from '49 which was the theme for Freed's Moondog radio show. Another is Nolan Strong & the Diablos doing "The Wind" from 1954 (Laura Nyro covered it rather nicely). I have a CD of old instrumentals that has Bill Doggett's "Honky Tonk" from '56 and Johnny "Guitar" Watson's "Space Guitar" from '54. Janis Martin's "Barefoot Baby." Jack Scott's "LeRoy" and "The Way I Walk". These are all essential rock and roll documents. Must-haves.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:47 PM

That list in the CD set is quite interesting.    I can see most of the names.   But the Delmore Brothers as rock pioneers?    I really like the Delmore Brothers--sing some of their songs-- but I'd put them solidly in country or bluegrass.    Where do you think the rock connection is?

I'd think a stronger case could be made for Bob Wills, in fact--as far as rock antecedents.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: gnu
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:58 PM

It's only rock 'n roll but I like it. The Stones? Not so much.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:13 PM

The comp also has Hank's "Move It On Over." I have a Capitol comp that has Rose Maddox's version of the song. It also has Skeets McDonald doing rockabilly with Eddie Cochran on lead guitar.

I already provided a Bob Wills rocknroll link earlier in the thread. I'm a Wills fanatic. I think I have pretty much everything he's ever recorded.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:19 PM

Btw, one of my contacts who was about 10 when the rocknroll craze hit in the early 50s said that before there were real rocknroll stations, you had to tune into country stations to hear rocknroll. And let's remember Eddie Cochran and Gene Vincent were actually country artists before rockabilly hit. So was Bill Haley who, interestingly enough, came from the same town as Jackie Wilson--the lead singer of Billy Ward & the Dominoes (whose "60 Minute Man" some believe actually provided Freed with the idea of calling R&B by the moniker of rock and roll).

When I asked my contact if he never turned into R&B stations, he replied that where he lived at that time, there were no R&B stations. You tuned into country stations to hear rocknroll.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:36 PM

My question is about the Delmore Brothers.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 07:15 PM

Post War Delmore Brothers output is almost all Boogie Woogie, often with a hot electric guitar break.

The guitar is sometimes Kenneth "Jethro" Burns.

I have lobbied for more discussion of the Boogie Woogie craze as it relates to Rock 'n' Roll earlier in the thread.

There is an amazing box set with 15 CDs and 300 songs called the Boogie Box. Amos Milburn, Arthur "Guitar Boogie" Smith, Louis Jordan, Ivory Joe Hunter, Hawkshaw Hawkins, John Lee Hooker, Big Joe Turner, Charlie Gracie, Bill Haley and even Nate Cole. Fun stuff.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:25 PM

"Freight Train Boogie" is certainly a rocknroll forerunner. The vocal melody is similar Wills's "Ida Red" which was liberally borrowed by Chuck Berry for his "Maybelline". The guitar breaks are pretty much standard blues shuffles. The harmonica line was borrowed and sped up for the intro to Blackfoot's early 80s hit "Train, Train" (which also relied heavily on "Mystery Train" by Little Junior (Parker)).

So, yeah, the Delmore Bros are definitely one of the roots of rocknroll.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 09:28 PM

Excellent. Thanks for the information.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 08:58 PM

I was doing a little more research on the Boogie Woogie craze, especially the Hillbilly Boogie angle, and I noticed something about a major player.

Porky Freeman, who designed and patented his own electric pickup, around 1940, before Leo Fender, is still with us. His lead guitar licks still sound fresh today.

He is 96 and let's his health is good.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:07 PM

DDT: You've seen this?

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:08 PM

Might help if I put the link:

http://www.bobwills.com/

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:39 PM

Rock and Roll is a recording and marketing designation to sell a music to a certain demographic. Sam Phillips sort of started it by producing Black music to sell to whites. Rhythm and Blues and Race Records (an unfortunate appellation) was the foundation for what we call rock and roll. It's also a euphemism like Jass for intercourse.

The most important thing about styles of music is that they are like people, they invariably cross over. There is no pure rock and roll or folk music or jazz.

What can be said for "rock and roll" is that it stems from an African-American experience, using music for dancing and movement and has a visceral connection to the body.

Rock implies body movement unlike say so-called "classical music" or intellectualized jazz although the notion of "swing" requires a body-dance connection in jazz.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 09:52 PM

Oldest known recording containing the some variation of "rock and roll" from 1916:

Little Wonder - Camp Meeting Jubilee

999: Thanks for the link. Did not hear about that before.

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 07:04 PM

When this thread was "up and running", one of the pioneers was still with us, Sid "Hardrock" Gunter.

He used the term "rock and roll" in the context of dancing and not as a slang term for sex.

That was 1950, before Alan Freed came along.

The guy was a great guitar player, band leader, comic and storyteller.

He passed away on March 15, 2103 he passed away due to pneumonia at the age of 88.

                                                                                                      Hardrock Gunter

Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 07:25 PM

What is music?