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BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful

GUEST,CS 12 Feb 13 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,CS 12 Feb 13 - 06:15 AM
JHW 12 Feb 13 - 06:45 AM
GUEST 12 Feb 13 - 08:07 AM
DMcG 12 Feb 13 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Feb 13 - 11:59 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,John J 12 Feb 13 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 12 Feb 13 - 05:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Feb 13 - 05:58 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Feb 13 - 06:02 PM
DMcG 12 Feb 13 - 06:05 PM
theleveller 13 Feb 13 - 03:58 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 13 - 04:15 AM
theleveller 13 Feb 13 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,Eliza 13 Feb 13 - 05:21 AM
theleveller 13 Feb 13 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Eliza 13 Feb 13 - 05:39 AM
GUEST 13 Feb 13 - 05:47 AM
theleveller 13 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM
theleveller 13 Feb 13 - 05:54 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 13 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,Eliza 13 Feb 13 - 06:23 AM
DMcG 13 Feb 13 - 07:45 AM
theleveller 13 Feb 13 - 07:49 AM
DMcG 13 Feb 13 - 07:53 AM
GUEST,Eliza 13 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Peter 13 Feb 13 - 08:22 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM
DMcG 13 Feb 13 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Eliza 13 Feb 13 - 08:34 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 13 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,owl glass 13 Feb 13 - 10:15 AM
theleveller 13 Feb 13 - 10:56 AM
eddie1 13 Feb 13 - 12:08 PM
SPB-Cooperator 13 Feb 13 - 12:17 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 13 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Eliza 13 Feb 13 - 12:33 PM
Mr Red 13 Feb 13 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 13 Feb 13 - 01:29 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 13 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Eliza 13 Feb 13 - 02:07 PM
Megan L 13 Feb 13 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,CS 13 Feb 13 - 02:48 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 13 - 06:49 PM
theleveller 14 Feb 13 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Eliza 14 Feb 13 - 05:56 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Feb 13 - 06:01 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Feb 13 - 06:02 AM
theleveller 14 Feb 13 - 06:48 AM

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Subject: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:14 AM

A graduate who was forced to leave her voluntary job working at a Museum in order to do unpaid work stacking shelves at Poundland, has one an important court battle with huge potential implications for the DWP's "back to work" scheme:

QUOTE: "Ms Reilly said: "I am delighted with today's judgment.
"I brought this case because I knew it was wrong when I was prevented from doing my voluntary work in a museum and forced to work in Poundland for free for two weeks as part of a scheme known as the sector based work academy.
"Those two weeks were a complete waste of my time as the experience did not help me get a job.
"I wasn't given any training and I was left with no time to do my voluntary work or search for other jobs.
"The only beneficiary was Poundland, a multimillion-pound company. Later I found out that I should never have been told the placement was compulsory.
"I don't think I am above working in shops like Poundland. I now work part time in a supermarket. It is just that I expect to get paid for working.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/graduate-wins-claim-that-making-her-work-for-free-at-poundland-was-unlawful-8491345.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:15 AM

*won*


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: JHW
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:45 AM

My understanding was that voluntary work was prohibited anyway to UK 'jobseekers'.   
A freind did do such work obviously to make good use of his time but very much to gain vital experience. However this was always at the risk of losing unemployment benefit due to being allegedly 'unavailable for work'


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:07 AM

Voluntary work is allowed while claiming jobseekers provided you are always available for interviews, attending the jobcentre and do enough actual jobseeking. Of course, that means your 'voluntary employer' can't rely on you, but that's the consequence of not actually paying you.

Govement site about this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:09 AM

'Twas I, posting above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 11:59 AM

And where is Poundland? Anywhere near Newfoundland?


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM

"Compulsory unpaid work"
I thought it was a case of finding work for those claiming benefits. If you don't do the work, you don't get paid the benefits.
As such I find it hard to understand the description of "unpaid work", even if the payment is coming from the government (us taxpayers) rather than from the business getting the benefit of the worked hours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,John J
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:03 PM

Job seekers allowance (per week):

under 25    £56.25

aged 25 or over    £71.00

JJ


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:38 PM

More to the point, the government's Minimum Wage is something over £6 per hour. That's at least £240 for a 40-hour week. Anything less is slave labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:58 PM

Leeneia, Poundland is one of three companies who have established shops in the UK where all itemas cost either £1 (in two of them) or 99p (in the third).

Apparently they source bulk quantities of goods from China and other cheap sources, at rock bottom prices per item, and ship them hear in container loads to make a profit even with a 99p price tag.

Since so many firms are now manufacturing in China to save labour costs, quite decent quality items can be bought very cheaply.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:02 PM

True BW, and as I understand it, some jobseekers have been forced to work two weeks for nothing and had their benefits cut as well. That's serfdom.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:05 PM

So why, Nigel, do you think the work found should not pay the minimum wage in exchange for the jobseeker benefits? Not the legislation, by the way, as there are are huge loopholes in that, but the minum wage itself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:58 AM

It's a totally stupid idea from a government that just doesn't understand how the real world operates. Here's two personal examples:

My son left uni in July and signed on. He receives around £50 a week. He's spent almost every day filling in long and complex application forms, taking extremely difficult online tests, having phone interviews, going to assessment days. Now, thankfully, he's found a good, well-paid job that will allow him to pay tax and pay off his considerable student loan. If he had been forced onto the government's slave labour scheme as would eventually have happened, he would have been unable to spend the necessary time searching for a job and would probably have been on the dole for years.

Example 2: I was made redundant in April last year after working for 44 years. If I'm still unemployed by this April I will be forced onto the slave labour scheme. Now I am one of those terrible wasters who have paid, I calculate, over £600K in taxes and national insurance in my life. Oh, and here's the real joke, I don't actually receive any jobseekers allowance as I have a small pension that puts me just outside the minimum level. So am I going to work in Poundland for nothing....stick it up your arse, Cam-moron.

The sooner we get rid of this stupid government with their overpaid cronies milking our society the better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:15 AM

I was under the impression that the slave labour scheme itself was not found unlawful, merely the current regulations pertaining to it. The government is rushing through new regulations to seek validly to operate these vicious schemes.

There are several vices to these schemes, layered on top of this government's determination to demonise the less fortunate.

Primarily - there are not enough proper jobs to go round. Every person on jobseeker's allowance who does get a proper job prevents another jobseeker from getting that job. But it is worse than that. Every person forced to work for nothing at say Poundland displaces a person who might be properly paid (well, at least the minimum wage) for working there.

But the government does nothing to stimulate the economy. It created the recession and now as always visits the worst effects on the least fortunate.

Meanwhile the likes of the Daily Express runs headlines like "No benefits for shirkers" - misrepresenting the effect of the unanimous Court of Appeal judgement and parroting the vicious government lie that those receiving benefits do not want to work. There are hardly any unemployed who do not want to work. The vast preponderance want hardly anything more than a proper job. And as the leveller points out, those who most want a proper job and would put most effort into seeking one are most trapped by this doctrinaire scheme.

This government is nauseating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:50 AM

Richard is right in what he says. Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to spend time in a Jobcentre will know that, although there are some wasters (there are in every walk of life - especially in this government), most people, from every age group and walk of life, actually want work. It's sometimes quite heartbreaking to overhear people asking their advisers for help and they almost always come away empty-handed. The answers they get are, quite simply, that there aren't the jobs out there, there's no help available, and the goverment is constantly urging more harrassment of the unemployed so that people will just give up and they can massage the unemployment figures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:21 AM

And coming soon, to a town near you, many thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians, to join the many thousands of other Europeans, all either seeking jobs or claiming Benefits, housing, schooling, medical treatment ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:34 AM

Eliza, that's another fallacy propounded by the right-wing reactionaries. On my fortnightly visits to the Jobcentre, I rarely come across any Eastern Europeans in there. I do, however, meet them doing hard manual work on the farms around me, working in care homes, cleaning hospitals etc. Also, the Polish population in this area is decreasing as they are now returning home.

You might get a more balanced view from this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/26/immigration-eastern-europe-jobs


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:39 AM

But theleveller, those jobs they're doing... er...shouldn't they be given to the resident population here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:47 AM

Radio 4 prog a couple of days ago stated that numbers of native jobseekers outnumber immigrants 2.5 to 1
(though I don't know how soon an immigrant officially belongs here)


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM

That depends on whether people will actually do them for the money. Perhaps they should be forced into taking them. Hey, Eliza, do you fancy going out into frozen fields to pick potatoes for 8 hours a day? No? Why not - it's good honest labour? Do you the world of good! Might be better if companies like Poundland paid people a proper wage to work for them.

Even the Daily Fascist has to admit that there are some positive benefits to immigration:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2147976/Influx-Polish-children-schools-helped-improve-British-pupils-grades.html#axzz2Km


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:54 AM

Just found this in a report by the Centre for Economic Performance:

"There are potential economic benefits associated with migration, especially to fill gaps in the UK labour market – where there are shortages of workers, whether high- or low-skilled. While there may be costs to particular groups, there is little evidence of an overall negative impact on jobs or wages."


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:20 AM

Let me check, Eliza. Does your husband displace someone more entitled from a job, or does he claim benefits? Or is his case different and if so why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:23 AM

I'm too old to do very much nowadays, theleveller, but both my grandparents did just that, hard labour for low pay, one down the pit and the other on fishing boats, both jobs dangerous and exhausting. And here in Norfolk, my dear neighbour's husband works outside on the land, cutting and trimming in the bitter cold. I'm wondering if Jobseekers could be 'persuaded' to do those sort of jobs, for a fair wage of course? (I have a theory that if one drove up in a coach to the local Jobseekers Centre and announced that anyone could jump on board and be transported to work immediately for £7 an hour, there'd be a stampede, not onto the bus, but out of the back door and away. The ones I've seen down there look as if the last thing they want is a blooming job.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:45 AM

That depends on whether people will actually do them for the money.

Hmmm, that's not as straightforward as it seems, either. I know a goodly number of young unemployed who would happily take those jobs for the minimum wage - many have applied to be cleaners and such - but there are enough holes in the legislation to enable less than the minimum wage to be paid and still abide by the legislation. For example I know some whose contract states that they agree to to be paid less than the minimum wage. I know others where their 'employers' insist they have to self employed and engaged that way, which also enables less than the minimum to be paid while abiding be the letter of the laws.

So what the phrase 'for the money' means is not as obvious as it may seem. I can see a logical basis for a minimum wage, both for the individual and for the economy as a whole. I can also see the case for no minimum wage, although I happen not to agree. What I cannot see is any rational basis for a minimum wage that employers don't have to pay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:49 AM

Yes, Eliza, I come from a family of farm labourers and fishermen. But my grandfather, after leaving school at 12, worked to self-educate himself and got a job as a railway clerk. But you expect me, at the age of 64, to go out and do hard manual labour for £7 an hour, or my son, after 3 years' hard work to get a good degree and amass debts of over £20K, to do the same? Or are you just stereotyping the 'average' benefit claimant as a lazy waster? Benefits are not a privilege, as this government would have us believe, they are a right, just as much as free healthcare or the old-age pension. If you use the NHS or have a pension, why do you try to deny others their rights?


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:53 AM

And by the way, on this theme, one of my abiding memories of the Olympics is of the 70,000 or so voluntary workers. If they had been paid the minimum wage it would have cost in the the order of £35m. That's hadly small change, but as a proportion of the money spent on the Olympics it is small change. For comparision, the management fee for G4S for not actually getting round to providing security was £57m.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM

Since you ask, I am indeed stereotyping the average benefit claimant as a lazy waster. Because they are. Their 'entitlement' presupposes that they've paid in and contributed with their tax. They haven't. I on the other hand have paid in all my life (as have you, presumably) and therefore claim my State Pension 'as a right' (and indeed my professional pension, which cost me an arm and a leg in superannuation over a full lifetime of work). Ditto my healthcare. I paid in for forty years with NI contributions. As long as people take out but don't pay in, the whole system will eventually grind to a halt and break down. Then there'll be nothing for anyone. Over to the young generation, as I shall be long gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 08:22 AM

@Eliza
Are you suggesting that I failed to pay my tax and NI for the 20 years working between leaving school and the 6 months that I spent on the dole in the recession of the early 90s?


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM

Well, if you are the real Eliza not a troll claiming your name, you are a stupid Daily Fail reading bigot. The benefit claimant who would not take a decent job if offered is very rare.

I ask again. What about your husband?


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 08:30 AM

I am indeed stereotyping average benefit claimant as a lazy waster. Because they are.

That use of the word 'average' allow you to dodge things, you know. So let's take a specific example. My daughter is on Jobseeker's at the moment, but is also on the lists of a significant number of as-and-when-needed positions. Last weekend she travelled for 4h to do a job lasting 1 hour with a net gain of £5. This weekend she is travelling a similar amount to the same place, but will actually be approximately £3 worse off, but she is doing so to ensure her name stays on the list. On occasions, she has worked for seven companies in the same week, once ending up with 4 jobs on the same day.

She is far from unique, in my experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 08:34 AM

I'm suggesting nothing of the sort Peter. You obviously are not the 'average' Jobseeker. Not many of these people have worked for twenty years and contributed as you have done. I spent hours down at the Jobcentre in Norwich with various ex-offenders sorting out their forms etc as the Probation Service seemed unable to do much. The people I saw there were mostly young, trailing a couple of dogs around and reeking of skunk. They had mobile phones at the ready to contact their dealers or receive drug orders from clients. They were unkempt, stoned and if anyone had offered to employ them they'd have needed their head examined. The women were young but instead of dogs they trailed babies around and passed the time smoking like chimneys at the door, flaunting hideous tattoos and shouting obscenities at passing lowlife they recognised. If your local Jobcentre is however patronised by clean, well-mannered and dog- and baby-free clients, I congratulate you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 09:57 AM

Hmm, so the young have to have contributed for 20 years. Isn't that going to need a time machine?

Oh, and the poor must not have dogs or babies?

And must not be mentally ill?

Oh, and you disapprove of tattoos? You are seriously uptight and inhibited aren't you. Why should personal adornment be banned? It is customary in many cultures. Or do you believe that you are somehow "better than savages"?

Eliza you are not merely an imaginative bigot, but sick.

And you are still ducking the question of why your husband, who has not contributed for any great period since you say freely that he is an immigrant, should be entitled to benefits or free to work, when you say that other immigrants should not be so.

Or are you proposing to say to a drug addict "You must clean yourself up and stop using drugs"? Do you have any idea of the success rate of that sort of hectoring? About zero.

Actually, I think you are a troll, and that your choice of screen name is no accident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,owl glass
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 10:15 AM

Here we go again!! A good, intelligent discussion falls apart as the name calling starts. Richard Bridge, if you must resort to playground tactics, please do it in the playground - not here. Where do you think you are, the House of Commons?


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 10:56 AM

There is no such thing as an 'average' claimant. They are all people with minds, feelings and often a lot of responsibilities. They come in all age ranges. Many have worked for years, paid tax and NI and find themselves in their current situation because of the recession caused by the greedy and feckless bankers. I'm appalled by your vicious stereotyping - frankly, Eliza, I had you down as a person of greater insight and humanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: eddie1
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:08 PM

I think some here are talking a load of rubbish!

I worked in a Government department paying benefits. Believe me, this country has more than its fair share of wasters who have no wish to work. Thank God we have people coming from Eastern European countries who are prepared to work, and work hard, often for very low wages. I hardly think they are depriving our own unemployed of jobs!
The young lady in question is a university graduate and volunteers in a museum, if what I have read is correct. Not exactly staying in bed and waiting for the benefits to roll in!

I've also had a lot of experience in working with volunteers and would ask why people do voluntary work? It can be to occupy themselves but very often it is to gain experience that can be put on a cv as well as being useful for getting a job in the very field in which they are volunteering! Nothing wrong with that, especially for young people who are often caught up on the roundabout – no job because they have no experience and no experience because they can't find a job!

On several occasions I took part in an exercise to encourage people to take on a few weeks work during the potato harvest. I very often found that young graduates and others of that ilk welcomed the chance to earn a few weeks' wages whereas those from a lower socio-economic group saw this kind of work as only being suitable for the "Tramps and Hawkers" referred to in a music thread above.

Good luck to the young lady who had the courage to take action against a system that is so short-sighted as to simply provide cannon fodder for an organisation that should, as several people have already pointed out, be paying at least the minimum wage.

I hope she is able to find a job soon that will make more use of her skills and possibly be of more value to the country!

Eddie


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:17 PM

I find it totally objectionable that large private companies are using free labour to do work that they would otherwise have to pay for, and pay tax for.

If I could set rules:

Free placements should only be used to MATCH new jobs created.

Free placements should be subject to Tax and NIC contributions as iof they were paid posts.

It would be illegal for unpaid workers to do any work whatsoever that is also being done by paid staff (but see exception for small businesses)

It would be illegal to make a person redundant to make room for a free placement.

Both offences would lead to massive fines and a criminal record for the directors and top-level executives of the company.

Priority should go to small businesses to cover the costs of bringing a potential new worker up to steam before employment. This would at least help small businesses gain the capacity to offer real employment.

Anyway thats my rant


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:19 PM

Where was the honesty or accuracy in the positions of those who denigrate immigrants and benefit seekers? Those bigots deserve no favourable consideration nor courtesy. They are liars and propagandists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:33 PM

I will answer your points Richard. My husband was an immigrant and is now a British Citizen. He has never applied for benefits. He is not entitled to them as my two pensions proclude it. He works for himself and created the job he does, thus not taking anybody's opportunity to work. He would indeed scorn asking for State help as he says he is able-bodied and perfectly capable of working in his chosen sphere. We have in fact paid many thousands of pounds to UKBA for the various processes leading to his Citizenship. On the subject of tattoos, they cost quite a lot of money, as do cigarettes, mobile phones, drugs, dogs and babies, luxuries I would have thought beyond the Jobseekers' financial scope. No, I do not think the unemployed should be producing children they cannot maintain. (The dogs of course provide an extra payment claimable from the benefits system) I am neither a Troll, nor sick. Yes, I do think one should say to a drug addict that they should clean themselves up. There are many agencies willing to assist them to do so. Finally, I am rather puzzled about your remark concerning my 'screen name'. It means nothing to me, I just thought Eliza was a pleasant choice. Is there in fact a sinister connotation to 'Eliza'? If so, I'm totally in the dark about it. I do hope this answers some of your queries and objections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:52 PM

Governments make the laws, governments can change them.

The case in point was was a lass who had a recognisable unpaid job that was giving her work experience with the kind of work she trained for at uni and was coerced to work as a mindless shelf stacker along with all the other unpaid slaves. It, and the court case may have damaged her employment prospects because she rocked the boat, and lost the contiuity of the "work experience". That is the tragedy. But if I was a museum curator I would recognise her forthrightness, and tenacity.

The system isn't geared for intelligent people. Job Centres employ pen-pushers, who aren't paid enough either, so they push the buttons they are told to.

My experience of the system was just as revealing, I played them at their own game - but there isn't much room for manoeuvrings. I won a point or two and saw that they couldn't join all the dots even with the data in front of them. I advised them - they didn't understand what I was talking about. There was no button for "listen to the guy with the brains".

A simple thing like: double clicking on a form and typing immediately instead of deleting all the letters and starting again. She claimed she was a luddite (with a degree). And continued as ever.

But the system is about works-shy people being kicked. The collateral damge is the soft targets. They have thicker hides, and are far more street smart. And they don't give a shit. Poundland would be well advised not to employ those of that category anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:29 PM

hi eliza.
i suspect the name jibe refers to "eliza dolittle" but if wrong i,m sure richard will enlighten us.i think your comments are mostly reasonable though sadly girls trailing around babies is a sad fact of life now ,which though sometimes female irresponsibility ,is often males taking advantage of them and then shirking responsibility for them.i think that the unemployed should contribute to the community rather than seeing benefits as entitlement and it would hopefully give them selfworth and give a propective employer confidence in employing them.i dont see why buisnesses should benefit from them though.
in my experience some posters are never going to discuss in a civil manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:32 PM

Your husband's work, Eliza, displaces any other person from that work, whether he or they are self employed or employed. With the lack of money (= demand) in the system there are only so many buyers of his goods or services. Apply the same standards to your husband as you do to for example many Eastern Europeans who come here and work on a self-employed basis. You can't have it both ways.

Babies are often unplanned. Dogs are often a cheaper substitute - something to cherish and nurture.

Plenty of intending tattoo artists tattoo their friends for no charge, to get practice (like trainee dentists and apprentice hairdressers).

The poor with bad credit records cannot get landlines. They have to be contactable and to be able to make contact to seek work.

You don't seem to know much about the people you demonise.

Plainly you seek only to argue that those who cannot maintain themselves should suffer. Civilisation moved on from that long ago, one part of that step being the repeal of the Poor Laws. Yes, you are a bigot.

My suspicion is that you invented the name Eliza for yourself because it is Eliza Carthy's name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:07 PM

I'm very sorry Richard, but in my ignorance I've never heard of Eliza Carthy. Maybe you'll enlighten me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Megan L
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:29 PM

I found out after David died that when the kirk folk walk out of your life it is the lassies who are single parents, tatooed and a bit mair fond o a drink than me that walked into my life. They pulled me in among them at the local cafe they go with me to meetings and drag me out to the pictures or even window shopping so I don't retreat back into myself. They dont judge they dont ask what I can do for them they saw my shrinking emotional self and do what they can to keep me part of the community.

They accept me as I am and I accept them as they are none of us are perfect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:48 PM

Thanks for that perspective Megan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:49 PM

Eliza - I don't believe you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliza_Carthy

You cannot post on this forum and be so ignorant.

Oh, hang on...


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 04:38 AM

Of course there are wasters who exploit the system - perhaps they take their lead from the MPs who do it for much greater financial gain. But there are, I believe, far more genuine jonseekers who want to work but who may not be equipped for the hard manual work that is often taken by immigrant workers (as are some of the most highly skilled and qualified jobs for which there are no takers).

On the other side of the fence - and I can only speak from personal experience here - I have found the staff at the Jobcentre to be considerate and as helpful as they can be under a repressive regime that has become far worse under this government. They have told me that they are constantly receiving directives which, in effect, are to harrass claimants until they finally just give up. My own adviser, Kath, has done everything she can to help me and, after some difficulties, finally managed to get an 'exceptional' payment for me to cover the cost of a part-time PTLLS teaching course which will allow me to teach Creative Writing and other courses to adult learners.

So let's stop the wholesale condemnation and demonisation of all benefit claimants - that's precisely what this government's PR machine is trying to do, to cover up their own inadequacies and incompetence. Let's face it, most of us have been in receipt of some 'benefit', whether it's tax relief on pension contributions, the use of the NHS, free education....that's what the Welfare State was set up to do; to help everyone have a better life and to protect those who, for whatever reason, cannot take care of themselves and their families. And that is precisely what this government is seeking to dismantle. Will you resist that or support it and take the consequences for the effect that it will have on this entire country?

I know where I stand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 05:56 AM

Well prepare to disbelieve once more Richard. I truly had never heard of the lady. I looked her up on Google, and she seems to be a perfectly innocuous singer. Even if I had chosen her name deliberately, (which isn't the case) what connotations did you draw from that? I have never pretended to be knowledgeable, and am quite content to accept I may be 'ignorant', but I still have a right to my opinions and not to be called 'sick' and/or 'a Troll'. I suggest a nice warm bath, a glass of good ale, a laxative and an early night. You may feel less like an angry bear in the morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 06:01 AM

You pretend to be unaware of where Eliza Carthy and her father Martin stand in the hierarchy of folk music in the UK - and unaware of where they politically stand - yet post on a folk forum? Innocuous? Troll.


You invent judgments against the unemployed, you say they must not breed? Sick. And not in a good way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 06:02 AM

Oh, and wasn't it you who said there was no sex between teenagers in Middlesex in the 60s? Fantasist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Compulsory Unpaid Work Found Unlawful
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 06:48 AM

"I still have a right to my opinions"

Yes, you do - but accept that some of us find them extremely unpleasant, especially when it comes to saying who can and cannot have children (you think they are a 'luxury' that only the wealthy should be allowed?), how people should spend the money that is rightfully theirs, how they should dress, and that they should be forced into slave labour. I'd say that was pretty much an extreme right-wing agenda that the BNP would be proud to endorse.


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