BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza

Subject: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 09:22 AM

GAZA (Reuters) - Egyptian forces have flooded smuggling tunnels under the border with the Palestinian-ruled Gaza Strip in a campaign to shut them down, Egyptian and Palestinian officials said.
The network of tunnels is a vital lifeline for Gaza, bringing in an estimated 30 percent of all goods that reach the enclave and circumventing a blockade imposed by Israel for more than seven years.
Reuters reporters saw one tunnel being used to bring in cement and gravel suddenly fill with water on Sunday, sending workers rushing for safety. Locals said two other tunnels were likewise flooded, with Egyptians deliberately pumping in water.
"The Egyptians have opened the water to drown the tunnels," said Abu Ghassan, who supervises the work of 30 men at one tunnel some 200 meters (yards) from the border fence.
An Egyptian security official in the Sinai told Reuters the campaign started five days ago.
"We are using water to close the tunnels by raising water from one of the wells," he said, declining to be named.
Dozens of tunnels had been destroyed since last August following the killing of 16 Egyptian soldiers in a militant attack near the Gaza fence.

http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-floods-gaza-tunnels-cut-palestinian-lifeline-123746900.html

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:04 AM

How do you feel about this, bb?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:08 AM

"Dozens of tunnels had been destroyed since last August following the killing of 16 Egyptian soldiers in a militant attack near the Gaza fence."


IMO it is a reasonable thing for the Egyptians to do.

More to the point, How do YOU ( and others here) feel about this? Do the Egyptians have the right to defend themselves by closing the tunnels?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:10 AM

How is closing the tunnels "defending themselves"?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:12 AM

How is allowing the tunnels as means of access to Egypt defending themselves, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM

Steve,

If someone enters your home and kills members of your family, you think it is wrong to lock the door to make it more difficult for them to get in???

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:33 AM

Egypt has its own malcontents, dissidents and nutjobs, all of whom were, and still are, very active following the change of regime.

The Egyptians' claim that Palestinians were responsible is both unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, but of course all the anti Gaza brigade will take Satan's word over that of Hamas

Just another escalation of pressure on the Gaza strip. Israel will be pleased!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:39 AM

As Don T said, the Palestinians deny that they had entered upon Egyptian soil in that incident. On the other hand, if Egypt entered Palestine through a tunnel and 14 soldiers were killed...

The whole thing stinks. There doesn't seem to be a lasting solution anywhere. For anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:46 AM

It is catastrophic that Egypt should close the tunnels, an act which lays the Palestinian people wide open to the Israeli blockade designed to starve and humiliate the Palestinian people into submitting to its expansionist aims.
Hamas has disowned the attack, which the Jerusalem Post links to Al Qaeda, so any claim that the Palestinians are in any way implicated is, to say the least, premature.
We managed to establish Israel's claim to fame as a terrorist state on the other thread, from which you did a quick runner - I wonder if we'll have any better luck here in asking how blocking essential supplies from a besieged people can possibly be described as protecting your home from somebody who "kills members of your family" - won't hold my breath though!
No doubt there are those among us who will take comfort from tightening the screws even further on an already extremely persecuted Palestinian people, an act that will open the door even wider to Israeli expansionism.
Maybe the protests that are taking place in Egypt at present will produce a government more susceptible protecting the Middle East from terrorist states!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:52 AM

BB said:

More to the point, How do YOU ( and others here) feel about this? Do the Egyptians have the right to defend themselves by closing the tunnels?

What BeardedBruce wants is for you to fall all over yourselves arguing with him and his strident anti-Palestine position. That's why he started the thread.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:58 AM

"extremely persecuted Palestinian people"

The "Palestinian" people of Gaza are definitely being persecuted by Hamas, see: Gaza Gags Civil Liberties. Perhaps they can petition the Israelis to liberate them from their oppressors.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:12 PM

And THIS is what Silly Rubber Stooge is in favor of:

GAZA CITY, Feb 12 2013 (IPS) - Gaza is becoming increasingly radicalised as Hamas continues its crackdown on civil liberties, press freedom and the rights of women. In the last few weeks a number of journalists have been arrested and accused of being involved in "suspicious activities", several detainees shot dead by police during arrest attempts, and female students asked to abide by a strict Islamic dress code.

"Hamas is on a gradual track of the Islamisation of Gazan society, which goes against their early promises," Dr Samir Awad from Birzeit University near Ramallah tells IPS. "Most people in Gaza, even the most conservative, oppose this. Gazans are already very conservative and they don't need Hamas dictating their religion to them."

Women have borne the brunt of the crackdown. Gaza's Al Aqsa University has announced that female students will be required to wear full traditional Muslim garb, from head to toe.

Some female students have expressed outrage, claiming that the new demands are in violation of their public freedom. They say that already female students are modestly dressed but that some prefer wearing pants and a long overcoat rather than a burka, abaya or hijab.

In the past, Hamas has banned women from riding on the backs of motorbikes, from smoking water pipes, and men from working in female hair salons – saying such practices were immodest. Not all bans, however, have been imposed uniformly.

"Hamas has also banned mixed parties and mixed activities as well as enforcing other restrictions on women but not on men. Gaza's entire seashore has practically been confiscated by Hamas as if it is their private property and they decide who can access the area and when," Awad tells IPS.

The dress code decision has also further undermined the latest unity efforts between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority (PA)-affiliated Fatah movement.

PA Minister for Higher Education Ali Jarbawi stresses that Hamas's decision is illegal and cannot be implemented. He wrote an official letter to Al Aqsa's president stating the illegality of the move which he said also violated Palestinian government decisions.

Dr. Faiq al-Naouk, advisor for managerial affairs at Al-Aqsa University responded saying that the controversial decision would be implemented only gradually as an act of "goodwill" before it becomes mandatory.

"Hamas's increasing radicalisation is one of the sticking points for Fatah and Hamas being able to form a unity government," says Awad.

Hamas has cracked down on other civil liberties too in the past few weeks. 'New Star', the annual Palestinian version of 'American Idol', was recently banned by the Islamist group on the grounds that it was "indecent" and violated conservative interpretations of Islam.

Producer Alaa Al Abed lashed out at the decision, of which he was only informed at the last moment, saying the ban prevented Gaza's 12 contestants from competing in the second round of the competition.

"This is more serious than Hamas just killing fun in Gaza – they are limiting the freedoms of the people, according to their whims," al-Abed says.

Teenage girls and women can only rarely be seen singing in public, but men are encouraged to sing, without musical instruments, about the glory of Islam and fighting Israel.

Journalists are also facing censure. Hamas has carried out a wave of arrests of Palestinian journalists in the coastal territory, accusing them of being involved in "suspicious activities". Palestinian human rights groups say internal security services in the Gaza Strip have stepped up harassment of journalists in the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) distributed a list of media workers it said had been arrested, and condemned the seemingly coordinated campaign, which Hamas officials deny.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: selby
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:31 PM

Seems to me that the Palestinians are the worlds whipping boys. The UN appears to do nothing to support them, the Arab League appear to do nothing to support them.
Who is afraid of upsetting who, I am sure the Palestinians are looking for leadership and support but NO ONE seems to want to help.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:35 PM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — A Palestinian rights group says Gaza's Hamas rulers have detained six journalists suspected of affiliation to a rival group, Fatah.
The Palestinian Center for Human Rights said Wednesday that Hamas security forces seized the men and their equipment over the past two days.
The group said the detentions were part of a wider arrest sweep this week of two dozen suspected Fatah loyalists.
Hamas expelled Fatah members in 2007 and took control of Gaza. Fatah is headed by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.
The arrests could undermine reconciliation efforts between Hamas and Fatah. While both groups routinely crack down on rivals, it's unusual for six reporters to be picked up in one sweep.
Gaza's Interior Ministry the arrested men were suspected of sabotaging "communal peace."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/02/12-5


and...


Hamas is once again trying to punish the residents of Gaza by attempting to reduce the scope of Israeli goods entering the region.

Hamas' Ministry of Economics announced this week its decision to ban the import of certain types of goods into Gaza through the Israeli crossings. These include office furniture, various types of foods, hygiene products, gas pipes, plastic, plastic bags and clothing.

The local population in Gaza expressed its dissatisfaction with the decision, especially since the Israeli products that enter Gaza are considered to be of much higher quality than the goods that are smuggled into Gaza from Egypt, through the tunnels in the Rafiah area.

The Coordinator of Government Activities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza (COGAT) noted that this is part of an ongoing Hamas policy, which seeks to reduce imports from Israel and other external markets without analyzing the serious impact such decisions would have on the public and the population in Gaza.

Nevertheless, COGAT noted, on Wednesday 218 truckloads containing a variety of goods and 175 tons of gas were delivered into Gaza.

The trucks were delivered through the Kerem Shalom Crossing under the coordination of the Coordination and Liaison Administration in Gaza.

In addition, noted COGAT, 301 tons of strawberries, and 52,000 flowers units were exported from Gaza this week. The export was coordinated by the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration through the Kerem Shalom crossing.

Israel continuously allows humanitarian aid into Gaza, despite Hamas's claims that there is a "siege" on the region. Israeli has approved internationally funded and monitored projects in Gaza. Since 2011, 235 projects have been approved. In September 2012 alone, 16 new projects were approved.

Israel has also supported the private sector in Gaza, and has approved the transfer of raw materials for private sector construction, including roof tiles, building stones, dry wall, mosaics, adhesives, plaster, etc.

In addition to all of the above, the communication channels between Israel and the PA's Ministry of Health have been maintained in recent years, despite Hamas' violent takeover of Gaza in 2007. As part of this communication Israeli doctors have more than once helped save the lives of PA Arabs from Gaza who came to receive treatment in Israeli hospitals.

Angry at the PA-Israel cooperation, Hamas has prevented the transfer of Gaza patients to hospitals in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:15 PM

I take it that, once again we're not going to get our questions answered as to why the Palestinian people should be punished for a crime committed by an extremist terrorist group - didn't think so really!!
Pointing at other acts of persecution - real or invented - in no way excuses Israeli terrorism, massacres, et al - if that were acceptable any mass murderer could simply point to Nazi Germany and claim as justification that at least they were not "as bad as them".
So far, the only ones supporting terrorism and persecution are Brucie and his merry men - no doubt this support will run longer than 'The Mousetrap'.
"Israel continuously allows humanitarian aid into Gaza"
Israel has detained medical supplies to Palestine long enough to cause deaths through lack of treatment, equipment and medicine.
Their blockade has caused widespread malnutrition among Palestinian Children.
It has also caused widespread poverty among the population by blocking farmers from their land with a Berlin-type wall and forbidding the import of essential tools and pesticides.... and the beat goes on.
Such claims of Israeli leniency totally distort the effects of this blockade and are tantamount to war crimes which they would have long ago been charged with if it wasn't for America's use of the veto.
Supporting those war crimes is a support for state terrorism aimed directly at the poorest members of an already impoverished third world people.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:18 PM

What Jim said.

Although any theocracy is bad for people.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:26 PM

It is precisely those states which are oppressed by outsiders which tend to become theocracies, possibly because that produces support from other states which share the religion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:26 PM

I have stated what EGYPT and what HAMAS have done- and hear all about how evil ISRAEL is.


It seems to me that the bigots here are trying to ignore the OP- EGYPT IS NOT ISRAEL.

But Jim et al seem to be certain it is always Israel's fault- ...

You trot out the same tired platitudinous repetition of your standard mantra, "Israel must always be criticised because they are always wrong"

See, Don? WE DO LISTEN TO YOUR COMMENTS.

Too bad you can't apply the same standards to your own posts that you want others to use.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:44 PM

"Although any theocracy is bad for people."
What Richard said.
"I have stated what EGYPT and what HAMAS have done- and hear all about how evil ISRAEL is."
Using your own arguments - you opened this thread ostensibly to discuss the closure of the tunnels and you went on to suggest that the Palestinians were responsible for the killing of the Egyptian policemen, which led to this.
You squealed loud enough at what you claimed "thread drift" on the thread you departed in haste from having cake and eating it maybe.
Inhuman acts by one group do not excuse similar actions by others
So far, you and your buddies are the only ones defending atrocities.
"But Jim et al seem to be certain it is always Israel's fault- ..."
Perhaps you might like to open a thread on the lengths Israel is prepared to go in order to expand its borders - no?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:52 PM

PS So far it is Israel, not Palestine who has been defended from charges of atrocities and war crimes by a UN veto - maybe there's something to the suggestion that they aren't the sweetness and light state you would have us believe - especially as the State came into being to the sound of villagers being massacred by having grenades thrown into their homes - hardly a promising start.
My family were avid supporters of the new Israeli State; my father went to Spain when he learned what was happening to the Jews in Germany.
He would have been horrified to see what Israel has now become.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM

Inhuman acts by one group do not excuse similar actions by others


Yet you keep bringing up Israel, and refuse to comment on either Egypt OR Hamas. WHY DO YOU EXCUSE THEM???????? Your bring up Israel in the thread between Egypt and Hamas is proof that you are doing just what you said we should not do-

"Inhuman acts by one group do not excuse similar actions by others"



Sounds like a bigot to me, applying one set of rules to those you dislike, and a different rule to others- your father would be ashamed of what YOU have become.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:06 PM

BBruce, your attack on Stilly River Sage was uncalled for. She believes that you started this thread in order to get an endless and pointless argument going. I suspect that in your rational moments you would not deny that assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:14 PM

I suspect that SRS only commented in order to attack me. She had nothing to contribute to the discussion.- YET YOU ARE OK WITH THAT.

I suspect in YOUR rational moments you will acknowledge that you allow those you agree with to have free reign, and only call out those you disagree with.

SRS and I go back to when she stated that she would not accept any information as valid that she did not a priori agree with. I pointed out that this was not the attitude of en educated person. I still believe it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:25 PM

What SRS, DonT, and Jim want you to do is attack me as the poster, and ignore the thread, since it does not allow them to attack Israel.

SRS has made it a pattern to attack those PEOPLE who disagree with her, and NOT address the facts brought up. Don T and others seem to be doing the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:31 PM

That may be, - I don't know - BBruce, but I don't recall any instance in which YOU cited someone *approvingly* when it was a person with whom YOU don't generally agree. If I am mistaken I would appreciate your pointing me to such an example.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:35 PM

Don'r have a dog in this fight, but it did occur to me, on reading the earlier post that stated 30% of goods arrive in Gaza via the tunnels. I imagine that 100% of the arms an explosives arrive by that route too.
As, much of the Israeli aggression is in reaction to Hamas aggression, perhaps there will be less exchanges of HE now.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:37 PM

I did not ask for their approval- but when they attack me ( rather than discuss the facts posted) and post ONLY to attack me, I will treat them just like I would a rabid dog- since that is what they prove themselves to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:50 PM

As, much of the Israeli aggression is in reaction to Hamas aggression, perhaps there will be less exchanges of HE now.

A very questionable assertion, I think. First, depends what you mean by aggression. If stealing land, dividing families, wrecking infrastructure and bulldozing civilian homes counts as aggression (it does in my book), then very little of that is response to Hamas aggression. Of course, it's possible in war-speak to massage the meaning of aggression in Israel's favour. That goes with the territory. Second, depends what you mean by response. If you mean tit-for-tat, well maybe. If you mean routinely killing around a hundred times as many of them as they kill of yours, well let's finesse the definition slightly. Finally, if you consider the middle east conflicts since WW2, I think you'll find that Israel was the initial aggressor in the majority of cases. In fact, apart from the US, Israel is quite possibly the most bellicose nation on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:52 PM

Sorry, I meant reaction as you stated, not response, though it amounts to the same thing I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM

"What SRS, DonT, and Jim want you to do is attack me as the poster"
No we don't Bruce - we have all responded to the subject of your thread; it is you who has deliberately avoided the fact that the Palestinians have not, nor have they been accused of taking part in the killing of the Egyptian policemen; it is you who has suggested that they pose a threat to Egypt (and then, of course, you refuse to qualify that suggestion).
It little becomes someone who did a runner from a thread rather than comment on the fact that Israel facilitated and probably participated in the massacre of 3,000 unarmed refugees, to accuse us of avoiding the issue.
Neither I, Don nor SRS have ever in any way given our support to terrorism in any shape or form. You on the the other hand, appeared to accept that Israel was a State which carried out terrorist acts on the other thread, (want me to produce your pre-flight statement?) yet still you give her your unqualified support.
As with another of your terrorist apologists, you accuse us of personal attacks - we are responding to what you write, not what you appear to be - can you claim to be doing the same?
Why do I excuse Egypt and Hamas - I don't - show me where I have ever done so.
Do a deal with you - tell me what you think of Israel's undisputed part in the Sabra/Shatila massacres and I'll tell you what I think of Egypt and Hamas (though I have made my attitude clear on Hamas over and over again on threads we have both been involved in).
After you - I asked first - at least a week ago!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:03 PM

If stealing land, dividing families, wrecking infrastructure and bulldozing civilian homes counts as aggression (it does in my book), then very little of that is response to Hamas aggression.

None of that happens to the Gazans Richard, so John has made a valid point.
There is still the legal crossing between Egypt an Gaza remember.

Who did kill those Egyptians.
Not Israelis, they killed the killers when they made an incursion into Israel.
Does anyone condemn Israel for that?

The world and his dog knows that they were Islamists sponsored by Iran, just like Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:04 PM

Missed a bit
John Mc
"Hamas aggression"
We've settled this bit long ago - Israel attempted to control and manipulate the Palestinian economy 20 years before the Hamas bombardment - the present state of affairs is due entirely to Israel's persistent and extremely aggressive expansionist policy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:05 PM

Oh no!
Jim wants to make this another thread about a 30 year old massacre of Arabs by Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:48 PM

Piss off Keith - you'll be telling BB that he can't hide behind the Holocaust next - can you tell us exactly how long the massacre of 3,000 unarmed refugees is before it no longer counts as a valid atrocity; perhaps I can pass it on to the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
"Who did kill those Egyptians"
Possibly Al Qaeda according to the Jerusalem Post - why do you ask?
Speaking of Bruce:
"I will treat them just like I would a rabid dog- since that is what they prove themselves to be."
A word of advice Brucie - your arguments might just come over a tad more effectively if they weren't couched in language that gives the impression that you are addressing a Nuremberg Rally.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:55 PM

Speaking of massacres, have you found the figures on how many Palestinians were killed by Palestinians over the last 10 years? Vs the number killed by Israelis, who they are at war with ( NO PEACE TREATY EXISTS)?


Jimmie, your arguments might mean something if they addressed the topic of the thread. EGYPT and HAMAS.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:03 PM

Jim, the massacre was in Lebanon, many hundreds of miles from the Gaza/Egypt border, and over 30 years ago.
Please explain its relevance to this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:16 PM

"how many Palestinians were killed by Palestinians"
I didn't think for one minute you would accept my challenge.
It was you who suggested that the closing of the tunnels was that the Palestinians were a threat to Egypt - not the case.
Jim, the massacre was in Lebanon.
The massacre was facilitated by the Israeli terrorist state - it could not have happened with out their full co-operation.
If you continue to interfere with what I choose to post an hoe I choose to post it I will take the appropriate action to stop you
How many times do you have to be told you have no authority to interfere with other peoiple's posts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:17 PM

There - more typos for you to crawl behind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:29 PM

Take the "appropriate action" Jim, because I will not stop highlighting your deranged obsession with utterly irrelevant issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:42 PM

Sorry Jim.
Take no notice of me.
This is just an exchange between no-nothing old folkies on an irrelevant internet forum.

I am worried for you.
Take a break, listen to some good music, and come back tomorrow.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:49 PM

""Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza""

It could be seen as an escalation of pressure on the Gaza strip.

But, alternatively, could it not reduce a big reason (excuse) that Israel has used to justify isolation-agression against Gaza? That could increase international pressure on Israel to open up it's borders to allow access for provisions for the citizens?

What's your views on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:00 PM

BBruce, but I don't recall any instance in which YOU cited someone *approvingly* when it was a person with whom YOU don't generally agree. If I am mistaken I would appreciate your pointing me to such an example.

Don't hold your breath for that citation, Ebbie - This is just the usual Beardie Blather, paranoia, name-calling and hubris in operation.

Why folks attempt to interact reasonably with him is a mystery.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:45 PM

Keith, take a reality pill.

"f stealing land, dividing families, wrecking infrastructure and bulldozing civilian homes counts as aggression (it does in my book), then very little of that is response to Hamas aggression.

None of that happens to the Gazans Richard,"

I said no such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:36 PM

""Too bad you can't apply the same standards to your own posts that you want others to use.""

The major difference is that I also criticise Hamas for what they do wrong, unlike yourself and Keith who ONLY criticise Hamas, in spite of the fact that Gaza is beseiged by Israel and forced to accept what Israel chooses to allow.

You would decry any other country which isolated a neighbour in this fashion, and you call us biased.

You constantly claim that we demand different standards from Israel, while upholding their right to establish different standards for themselves, in direct defiance of both the United Nations and the International Criminal Court, so who are the bigots?

As for Egypt, I should have thought the fact that I did not believe their reasons for flooding the tunnels would show that I don't single out Israel alone.

Mind you, a cynical man might wonder if the death of those sixteen Egyptians was designed to tighten Israel's grip on Gaza and the Left Bank, and consequently who the killers really might have been.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:55 PM

""But, alternatively, could it not reduce a big reason (excuse) that Israel has used to justify isolation-agression against Gaza? That could increase international pressure on Israel to open up it's borders to allow access for provisions for the citizens?""

What international pressure Ed? The only pressure applied to Israel, by the UN, is routinely vetoed by the United States of America, with somewhat disgusting support from the successive governments of my own country.

Anything that Israel does, no matter how vile, is overlooked by those with guilt feelings about the treatment of Jews in WW2, despite the fact that the miscreants are not the ordinary Jewish citizens of Israel, but rather the vicious Zionist fanatics who control Israel's government and seem to feel justified in getting their own back for that treatment by bashing their neighbours, who had nothing to do with it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 03:51 AM

From Wiki.

The (Egyptian)army said that "elements" in the Gaza Strip helped the perpetrators by firing mortars during the attack.[15] The daily al-Youm al-Saba'a quoted a senior Egyptian security official, who said that Islamic Jihad militants from Gaza and global jihad (Jihad al-Alami) fighters from Egypt perpetrated the attack.[16] CNN cited anonymous 'Egyptian general' who said the Hamas breakaway group 'Al-Galgala Army' is behind the border attack .[43] The MENA news agency said that the attackers were jihadists who had "infiltrated from Gaza through tunnels," and had collaborated with "jihadist elements."[15]
The Muslim Brotherhood released a statement calling on the government to "confront this serious challenge to the Egyptian sovereignty" as well as to "protect Sinai from all armed groups."[44] The party also claimed on its website that the attack "can be attributed to the Mossad", Israel's intelligence service, in an effort to destabilize the government, which the Israeli foreign ministry denied as "nonsense."[45]

On 7 August, at a funeral for the soldiers who were killed, Prime Minister Hesham Qandil was assaulted and attacked by angry mourners, who also vandalized his car. In addition, Kandil was pelted with shoes, while some angry mourners chanted, "The Brotherhood and Hamas are one dirty hand."[47]

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 03:55 AM

"utterly irrelevant issues."
A last word on attempts to censor this forum and then an end.
Despite Bruce's claims to the contrary, the subject of this thread is not "Hamas".
Hamas has not been implicated in these killings, the suggestion has been made that Al Qaeda was responsible - I read it on the Jerusalem Post' site. It is as likely that Mossad engineered the killings, they have far more to gain than do Hamas (not making this as a serious suggestion, just pointing out that it is the suggestion of you pair that Hamas was in any way involved.
So using your own logic, to bring them into the discussion is 'thread drift'.
On the other hand, should the blocking of the tunnels bring about an end to the Palestinian siege in Israel's favour it is quite likely that the population of Gaza will become refugees, and we all (or most of us) are aware of Israel's reputation regarding the treatment of civilians, refugees in particular.
Israel's persistent attempts to illegally annex Palestinian land and dominate its economy and way of life, and the lengths they are prepared to go to in order to do so lies at the heart of all these discussions and will inevitably be raised whenever the subject comes up.
Both Keith and Bruce have used 'thread drift' to take these discussions wherever they choose, yet it is they who constantly make it as an accusation to prevent discussions from exposing 'awkward' facts - they attempt to manipulate threads to their own ends.
These threads will go wherever people choose to take them - as Keith once said after he had persistently complained about thread drifts and then had then drifted way off topic "thread drifts happen' (I think it was when he was defending the use of chemical weapons on civilians).
Both Keith and Bruce have reputations of championing 'extreme' extremist causes and constantly use this forum to promote their views - censorship is one of the greatest weapons of extremism.
Attempts to manipulate threads in favour of any particular point of view and away from awkward facts is censorship in the extreme and goes against the much appreciated (by some of us) democratic nature of this forum SO STOP DOING IT - NOW - it is every contributor to this thread who will decide what is relevant and irrelevant, not a pair of extremists!
The end - I hope!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 04:16 AM

Hamas has not been implicated in these killings

Yes they have.
Read the Wiki piece I just posted.
That is why Egypt is blocking the tunnels.

(The rest of your post is complete bollocks too)

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 04:38 AM

Jerualem Post today.
Dozens of tunnels had been destroyed since last August following the killing of 16 Egyptian soldiers in a militant attack near the Gaza fence.

Cairo said some of the gunmen had crossed into Egypt via the tunnels - a charge denied by Palestinians - and ordered an immediate crackdown.

The move surprised and angered Gaza's rulers, the Islamist group Hamas, which had hoped for much better ties with Cairo following the election last year of Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi, an Islamist who is ideologically close to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 06:26 AM

""Hamas has not been implicated in these killings

Yes they have.
Read the Wiki piece I just posted.
That is why Egypt is blocking the tunnels.""

First it's an "unnamed senior Egyptian intelligence officer", then an "anonymous Egyptian General", and finally that fount of highly accurate information, Wikipedia.

There are also allegations about the likely involvement of Mossad,which of course are denied by Israel.

On seeing those statements side by side, you Keith automatically believe whatever Israel says, and apparently prefer the word of anonymous sources and a website to which, if I wished, I could post that I had been personally visited by the tooth fairy.

You claim to have a "balanced" point of view?....Only if you spell that word "B-I-A-S-E-D".

You mentioned the firing of mortars during the border kerfuffle.

If you were a border guard, and somebody started a gunfight right at the border, might you not assume that your post was being attacked and carry out your duty to defend it by opening fire?

NO! What am I thinking of? Of course you wouldn't, not without Israeli approval.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:34 AM

They closed the Gaza tunnels.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM

More information for you not to read
Jim Carroll

Christian Science Monitor
"The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces remains at least as powerful a political player in Egypt as the elected president, and today, military officials told the Egyptian press they'd be sending teams to destroy the Gaza tunnels, insisting that the security breach entirely emanated from the strip. Will they follow through? And what will Morsi do when the inevitable claims of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza emerge? We'll see. For the moment, his promise to ease the restrictions on Gaza is a dead letter. And Egypt's generals have a new tool to use in cementing their own political power.
In Gaza, the effects of the attack were immediate. Not only did Israel and Egypt close the official border crossings, but Hamas immediately responded by closing the smuggling tunnels into Egypt to assist in looking for surviving attackers (most of them appeared to have been killed by Israeli forces). Local residents were anxious about food and fuel shortages, and angry over the attack, which buried any chances of Egypt substantially easing its end of the blockade any time soon.
The cui bono thinking that's inevitable after events like these leads to very few potential winners.
Who's involved?
The attack was almost certainly carried out by jihadis, who have long operated in the Sinai, where sophisticated smuggling groups, a local population that resents central government authority, and a sparse population give them plenty of room to operate. But in Gaza, as on the Egyptian side of the border at Rafah, there was fury at the attacks, which both Egypt and Israel claimed involved militants who had crossed into Egypt from Gaza. JUDGING BY THE HISTORY OF ATTACKS, EGYPTIANS WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED AS WELL."
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0807/With-16-Egyptian-soldiers-murdered-Sinai-is-front-and-center-for-President-Morsi

Christian Science Monitor again
"Israel and Egypt have closed their official border crossings with Gaza until further notice, and Egyptian and Hamas officials have shut down the hundreds of tunnels that are used to smuggle food, fuel, and construction materials to the Israel-blockaded seaside territory because Egypt believes that the gunmen tried to escape into Gaza through them."
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2012/0806/Sinai-attack-seals-up-Gaza-to-outside-world-video

"The funeral ceremonies were disrupted by PRO-MILITARY HECKLERS" (Your "angry mourners" I believe J.C."who chanted slogans against President Mohammed Morsi of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood and Gaza's Hamas rulers."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57488629/16-egyptian-soldiers-killed-in-sinai-buried/

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:16 AM

I expect more has been learned over the last seven months.
Egypt closed the tunnels.
Do you know more than The Muslim Brotherhood government of Egypt Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

"Egypt closed the tunnels."
The Egyptian military closed the tunnels, as they said they would at the time. As far as the Government is concerned, I seem to have read somewhere that it is under some pressure for going back on its promises following the Arab Spring revolution.
I also seem to remember you being severely critical of Egypt for its lack of democracy, its lack of support for Palestinians and its treatment of Bedouins - yet here you go, presenting them as paragons of democracy, fair play and honesty.
Funny old world (not to mention strange bedfellows)!!
"I expect more has been learned over the last seven months"
If you have any evidence that implicates Hamas in the killings, please put it up - I promise I'll read it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:56 AM

Idiots that consistently use Blog-O-Pedia as an authoritative source ought to be ignored out of hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:02 AM

""They closed the Gaza tunnels.""

Which could just as easily be the desired result of a Mossad inspired action!

The point is that there simply isn't anything in the way of evidence which would sway a court of law, so while I am saying that there are two equally credible and equally unproveable explanations, your bias has already decided for you that there is only one.

Pathetic.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:19 AM

""Do you know more than The Muslim Brotherhood government of Egypt Jim?""

Would that be the same Muslim Brotherhood which is blaming Mossad in the following extract from your own Wiki post, earlier today?   

""The Muslim Brotherhood released a statement calling on the government to "confront this serious challenge to the Egyptian sovereignty" as well as to "protect Sinai from all armed groups."[44] The party also claimed on its website that the attack "can be attributed to the Mossad", Israel's intelligence service, in an effort to destabilize the government, which the Israeli foreign ministry denied as "nonsense."[45]""

As I said, two equally credible possibilities, but even when you yourself post the evidence that there are two, you then go on to deny it.

You are so incredibly biased that you cannot even see what is wrong with your viewpoint, but you aren't alone in that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:31 AM

Once again the Israelis have caused a problem. Many here feel it's to do with Hamas and Egypt, but we know that if it wasn't for the existence of Israel then North Korea would not have tested their third nuclear device. OK, so that's a bit off topic, but it falls in line with about 85% of the posts to this thread so far.

Next, how Israel caused the Krakatoa eruption of 1883. Stay tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:33 AM

THIS IS A MESSAGE FOR KEITH A OF HERTFORD!!!!!

Just in case you might miss it as you have so many others, I have made this easy to find again.

Since there was no attack upon Israeli territory or citizens, don't you find it rather odd that Israel and Egypt are working in parallel to totally isolate Gaza, by shutting down all tunnels, official or not, on both Egyptian and Israeli borders.

Just what heinous act do you suppose Israel will use as an excuse?

Keith, these are plain questions to which I expect genuine answers!.....Go on man, try something NEW!.

""You are wrong"", or similar are not acceptable answers, unless you can show evidence as to why that is the case.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:41 AM

""Once again the Israelis have caused a problem. Many here feel it's to do with Hamas and Egypt, but we know that if it wasn't for the existence of Israel then North Korea would not have tested their third nuclear device. OK, so that's a bit off topic, but it falls in line with about 85% of the posts to this thread so far.

Next, how Israel caused the Krakatoa eruption of 1883. Stay tuned.""

Since I know that you are normally a fair minded man Bruce, I'm both surprised and disappointed if that post applies to those of us who are trying to keep some semblance of balance, or have you also given up on the concept that there are two sides to every story, and it is wrong to allow only one to be told?

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:22 AM

Reply to Don.
missed as you have so many others

I have missed nothing Don.
You made that up.

don't you find it rather odd that Israel and Egypt are working in parallel to totally isolate Gaza, by shutting down all tunnels, official or not, on both Egyptian and Israeli borders.

Israel has done nothing, in parallel or otherwise.
Also, there are no tunnels on the Israeli border.

Just what heinous act do you suppose Israel will use as an excuse?

It has not done anything so needs no excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 11:33 AM

Ho hum!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 01:33 PM

We're going to Spain for our holidays so we're OK!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 03:49 PM

"We're going to Spain for our holidays so we're OK!!!"

Now, THAT'S a relief. Gonna tunnel in from Gib?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:48 PM

""Israel has done nothing, in parallel or otherwise.
Also, there are no tunnels on the Israeli border.

Just what heinous act do you suppose Israel will use as an excuse?

It has not done anything so needs no excuse.""

Devious as ever Keith.

I referred to two kinds of border crossing, official and tunnels.

Israel has closed all official access to Gaza from Israel. Egypt has closed both official crossings and secret tunnels.

Egypt's excuse is the skirmish on the Gaza border, which they believe may have been the responsibility of Hamas, while the Muslim Brotherhood has, as you yourself reported, blamed Mossad.

The FACT is that Gaza has been locked down by Egypt and Israel acting, if not in concert, certainly at the same time.

Since Israel was not a victim of the alleged attack which caused the Egyptian response, just what do you suppose was the reason (or excuse) for Israel mirroring the Egyptian response?

You have charged, tried and convicted Hamas, and would doubtless be happy to watch the execution, BUT ON WHAT EVIDENCE?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:04 PM

I referred to two kinds of border crossing, official and tunnels.
No. You just said tunnels.

Israel has closed all official access to Gaza from Israel.
You have just made that up Don.
Israel is not involved in any of this.
It is purely an issue between Egypt and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:01 AM

You have been posting on the other thread Don.
Now come clean on this one.

Israel has closed all official access to Gaza from Israel.

You did make that up.
Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:09 AM

It appears that the BBC item which I thought stated that Israel had closed the border, was a misunderstanding on my part. It was in fact a report about Israelis shooting Palestinians who came too close to the border.

The Israelis, predictably, claimed that these people were trying to damage the fence.

With bare hands and in insufficient numbers to use weight!

They were lucky! Two shot, one in the chest and one in the hand. Others have been less so.

The following is an account of what Israeli troops are being allowed to do by their superiors in government, in spite of the illegality of most of these actions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/28/palestinian-deaths-israel-army-live-fire

You will note that this is from Israeli sources, by way of The Guardian, that well known antisemitic (NOT) Newspaper.

For your benefit Keith, this was dated 28th January 2013. Relevant enough?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:27 AM

THIS IS A MESSAGE FOR KEITH A OF HERTFORD!!!!!

Just in case you might miss it as you have so many others, I have made this easy to find again.

Since there was no attack upon Israeli territory or citizens, don't you find it rather odd that Israel and Egypt are working in parallel to totally isolate Gaza, by shutting down all tunnels, official or not, on both Egyptian and Israeli borders.

Just what heinous act do you suppose Israel will use as an excuse?

Keith, these are plain questions to which I expect genuine answers!.....Go on man, try something NEW!.

""You are wrong"", or similar are not acceptable answers, unless you can show evidence as to why that is the case.

Don T.

You were wrong Don.
I was not being "devious", I was being wholly accurate.
I was not the "fuckwit."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:27 AM

"February 13, 2013: Israel okays Turkish convoy with Gaza supplies"

from

http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/israel-okays-turkish-convoy-with-gaza-supplies-1.1145850

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:31 AM

Read the whole story Bruce.

It's a diplomatic sop to Turkey to improve their relationship with Israel after a bunch of Turks were killed running the blockade of Gaza.

It is certainly not being done for Gaza's benefit, where there wouldn't be a hospital, if Palestinians hadn't smuggled the materials in and built it.

So, you give the Israelis a pat on the back if you wish.

I'll stick to exposing the real, self serving reasons for almost every action of theirs.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: pdq
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 12:43 PM

Gulf News is based in Dubai and it is not exactly unbiased or pro-Israel.


"On January 4, 2009, the paper published an article by Dr Mohammad Abdullah Al Mutawa, a professor of sociology at UAE University Al Ain which stated that the Nazi 'holocaust was a mere lie devised by Zionists to blackmail humanity.' It continued, 'It is evident that the holocaust was a conspiracy hatched by the Zionists and Nazis, and many innocent people gave their lives as a result of this inhuman plot.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 01:03 PM

And we have our own brand of 'deniers' here who deny the facts of documented Israeli atrocities and war crimes.
Like someone else among us - it is meaningless to justify one dishonest (or terrorist) act by pointing at another, or we would condone all inhuman acts by pointing at Nazi Germany as being "worse".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:34 PM

Hiding behind the six million Holocaust victims and by doing so, implicating the dead of Auschwitz and Belsen with Israel's war crimes and human rights abuses has now become one of the worst displays of Antisemitism I've ever come across.
You should all be proud.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 09:02 AM

Since Don continues to discuss this on the other thread...


"CAIRO (Reuters) - Egypt will not tolerate a two-way flow of smuggled arms with the Gaza Strip that is destabilizing its Sinai peninsula, a senior aide to its Islamist president said, explaining why Egyptian forces flooded sub-border tunnels last week.
The network of tunnels has been a lifeline for some 1.7 million Palestinians in Gaza, bringing in an estimated 30 percent of all goods that reach the enclave and circumventing a blockade imposed by Israel for more than seven years.
But Essam Haddad, national security adviser to President Mohamed Mursi told Reuters in an interview: "We don't want to see these tunnels used for illegal ways of smuggling either people or weapons that can really harm Egyptian security."
He said that under a deal brokered by Cairo to end fighting in November between Israel and the Hamas movement that rules the Gaza Strip, the Israeli stranglehold on the coastal territory had been considerably relaxed. Egypt has eased border controls to allow in construction materials, notably from Qatar.
"Now we can say that the borders are open to a good extent - it could still be improved - and the needs of the Gazan people are allowed in. Building materials are allowed in for the first time," Haddad said.
"And on the other side, we would not like to see arms smuggled through these tunnels either in or out, because we are now seeing in Sinai and we have captured actually across Egypt heavy arms that could be used in a very dangerous way."
Sixteen Egyptian border guards were killed last August in a militant attack in Sinai near the Gaza fence that shocked Egyptians and highlighted lawlessness in the desert region adjoining Israel and the Gaza Strip.
Cairo said some of those gunmen had crossed into Egypt via the Gaza tunnels - an accusation denied by the Palestinians. Dozens of tunnels have been destroyed since that incident.
Last Friday, Egypt said it had seized two tons of explosives hidden in a truck carrying a shipment of fruit and vegetables bound for Sinai. In January, Egypt seized six anti-aircraft and anti-tank rockets in the peninsula that smugglers may have intended to send to Gaza.


http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-flooded-tunnels-cut-gaza-arms-flow-aide-170204594.html

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 03:00 PM

I have had my reply to Keith's claim that the site proposed by the Israelis for the forcible removal of the Bedouins was not toxic removed by the forum fairy (presumably) I do hope that this is not censorship.
I will reply tomorrow in the hope that it is not removed again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 03:07 PM

Jim,

I disagree with much of what you post, but the "mud elves" should not be removing posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 02:52 AM

Thank you Bruce - Likewise I do not agree with much of what you have to say, but at least you appear to have some fore-knowledge of the subject and are making an effort to provide facts rather than making them up as you go along, unlike.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 01:05 PM

CAIRO (AP) -- An Egyptian security official says authorities have confiscated two pick-up trucks carrying 60 anti-tank missiles smuggled across the border from Libya.

The official says two truck drivers were arrested and the weapons seized just south of Cairo on Wednesday morning.

The two were heading from Marsa Matrouh, 430 kilometers (270 miles) northwest of the capital on the Mediterranean Coast, to the largely lawless Sinai Peninsula where weapons are regularly smuggled to Palestinian militant groups in the Gaza Strip through underground tunnels.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the press.

Lawlessness has been rife in Sinai since the ouster of longtime ruler Hosni Mubarak in February 2011. Weapons have flowed from Libya into the peninsula, where Islamist militants have grown in strength.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 01:24 PM

"An Egyptian security official says authorities have confiscated two pick-up trucks carrying 60 anti-tank missiles"
I'd love to see the tunnel that load came through - the Mersey Tunnel maybe??
It needs to be remembered that the reason for flooding the tunnel given by the present Egyptian regime has been contradicted by a far more logical explanation offered by 'The Egyptian Independent' - journal demanding that the regime lives up to the promises of The Arab Spring.
Anyway - Hamas seems to have disappeared off the stage as a possible suspect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 01:27 PM

Learn to read...

"from Marsa Matrouh, 430 kilometers (270 miles) northwest of the capital on the Mediterranean Coast,*** TO **** the largely lawless Sinai Peninsula where weapons are regularly smuggled *** TO *** Palestinian militant groups in the Gaza Strip through underground tunnels."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:48 PM

""Learn to read...

"from Marsa Matrouh, 430 kilometers (270 miles) northwest of the capital on the Mediterranean Coast,*** TO **** the largely lawless Sinai Peninsula where weapons are regularly smuggled *** TO *** Palestinian militant groups in the Gaza Strip through underground tunnels."""

Explain to me just why you apologists for the Israeli government's actions are so ready to believe an anonymous ""Egyptian security official"", while talking down the statements of Israeli soldiers, Israeli Human Rights organisations and Israeli political opposition, and a Jewish nurse, along with foreign medical personnel working in understaffed, under equipped and bomb damaged (by Israel) hospitals within Gaza.

It seems an immoderately one sided viewpoint, in which supporters of Israel are more prepared to accept the word of Muslims, than of their own people, as long as those Muslims are not Palestinian.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:04 PM

Explain why you aren't, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:08 PM

Lemme get this straight. Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza and it's Israel's fault. OK, so if the Chunnel is closed by France we blame Scotland, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:24 PM

Jim Carroll said a post of his was removed...

This one?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

I seldom read this thread anymore because of the intransigent positions of BOTH sides, but those of you who do need to be careful about who you accuse of what.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:58 PM

Touché!

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 01:34 AM

"An Egyptian security official says authorities have confiscated two pick-up trucks carrying 60 anti-tank missiles"
I'd love to see the tunnel that load came through - the Mersey Tunnel maybe??

Unless, who knows, they planned to UNLOAD the trucks?
Everyone of the thousands of missiles fired into Israel passed through the tunnels Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 03:34 AM

I leave deletions and such to the Anonymous Moderation Team nowadays, so you people no longer have reason to hate me; but I can tell you this: there are NO deleted messages in this thread.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 03:52 AM

""Explain why you aren't, Don.""

OK Bruce!

Because you can brush off criticism from those on the other side of the argument as being biased, but when your own side starts to criticise, you should examine your actions very carefully and not simply dismiss them as "self hating Jews", which is intrinsically a bigotted comment.

SIMPLES!
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:28 AM

Joe;
"there are NO deleted messages in this thread."
I sent off a long post concerning the forced re-settlement of Bedouins on to a toxic site, It didn't appear. I usually check that it had landed - I didn't on this occasion.
Sometimes messages I send don't arrive, which is almost certainly my own fault; almost certainty the case here.
I apologise if I've offended you or anybody - I was niggled because of the time I put into the post and knee-jerked (again) an unbreakable it would seem.
Love you Joe.
Bill D.
"Jim Carroll said a post of his was removed... This one?"
Nope it was this one which I re-sent on the other thread (Israel condemned by UN - 13 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM)
Thanks for asking though.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 08:16 AM

You did have one deleted from the "Israel Condemned" thread Jim.
The gratuitously offensive "mind your own f*****g business" post, remember?
Love you,
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 08:52 AM

Keith,

Regardless of whether I agree with someone, they have the right to post as they wish- and earn the consequences of their posts. Even GregF should be able to post as he wishes- MY complaints are the censorship of the mudelves that remove the responses, making sure that popularly supported views are not challenged or unpopular posters allowed to defend themselves. Thus, EVERY post should stand, or NONE of them- Either allow free speech, or shut this whole board down.


IMHO, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM

Keith
I have ended our altercation on the other thread - and have given my reasons for doing so.
I would be grateful if you didn't restart our differences here and **** up this thread, thus allowing this discussion to proceed unpolluted.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 09:21 AM

sorry..

"making sure that popularly supported views are not challenged or unpopular posters ARE NOT allowed to defend themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:19 AM

'""Explain why you aren't, Don.""

OK Bruce!

Because you can brush off criticism from those on the other side of the argument as being biased, but when your own side starts to criticise, you should examine your actions very carefully and not simply dismiss them as "self hating Jews", which is intrinsically a bigotted comment.

SIMPLES!
Don T.'


Not so simples, Don. First, I have never used the term 'self hating Jews' in my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:42 AM

That's right, Mr. Beard, them miserable mudelves are persecuting you. Probably because you're Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 03:02 PM

Stilly River Sage

What BeardedBruce wants is for you to fall all over yourselves arguing with him and his strident anti-Palestine position. That's why he started the thread.

OK, but why single out BB?
You made no such criticism of Stringsinger when he started his thread about Israel.
At least there were no lies in BB's OP.
Strinsinger's OP was ALL made up lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 08:00 AM

""Not so simples, Don. First, I have never used the term 'self hating Jews' in my life.""

The problem is that you jumped into a conversation with that other Bruce (he of the beard), who has a problem with Israelis who deplore and expose some of the actions of their government and military.

""Self hating Jews"" seems to be the current pro Israel buzz word to denigrate them and impugn their veracity and motives.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 08:05 AM

And of course, bringing the word Jew into the discussion, which on my side has been all about the Israeli government and the IDF, is a ploy they continuously use in the hope of being able to accuse me of antisemitism.

So far without success.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 12:51 PM

But when we discuss an issue like the treatment of Bedouin, why do you ignore the much worse persecution in some Arab states, and only criticise a Jewish state?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 02:49 PM

""But when we discuss an issue like the treatment of Bedouin, why do you ignore the much worse persecution in some Arab states, and only criticise a Jewish state?""

1). BECAUSE THOSE OTHER STATES' TREATMENT OF BEDOUINS, OR OTHER MINORITIES, ARE NOT UNDER DISCUSSION IN THIS THREAD, EXCEPT BY YOU AS A JUSTIFICATION OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT'S TREATMENT OF ITS BEDOUIN MINORITY!

2). BECAUSE THE SIMILAR ACTIONS OF OTHERS, HOWEVER BAD, CANNOT JUSTIFY THOSE OF ISRAEL'S GOVERNMENT!

3). ONCE AND FOR ALL, NOT A JEWISH STATE!!! THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL!!

A direct answer to your question, which has already been given more than often enough for the dimmest twit in history to understand it.

DO YOU GET IT NOW??

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 04:00 PM

Well, no Don.

How can you discuss persecution of minorities in a state and not make a comparison if neighbouring states are considerably worse?

You need a reason to avoid mentioning a worse situation next door.

What is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 04:21 PM

ONCE AND FOR ALL, NOT A JEWISH STATE!!! THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL!!
The term "Jewish state" has been in common usage in the media since the establishment of Israel, and the term was used interchangeably with Israel.

The first US official to use the term was then United States Secretary of State Colin L. Powell in a 2001 speech on the Middle East, in which he briefly called on Palestinians to recognize Israel as a "Jewish state" after an Israeli diplomat convinced an aide to slip the phrase into his speech. George W. Bush used the term in his speeches and in a controversial exchange of letters with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2004.[2] Obama has also adopted the phrase, most recently in a speech in September 2010 to the U.N. General Assembly.[3] The Israeli government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has sought Palestinian recognition of Israel as a "Jewish state". However, Palestinians regard a "Jewish state" as a trap, a new demand that did not come up during years of negotiations in the 1990s or in peace treaties reached with Egypt and Jordan. The Palestine Liberation Organization recognized the State of Israel as part of the Oslo Accords in 1993. Palestinians regard acceptance of the demand as giving up the right of return.[3]

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 04:40 PM

Palestinians and Israelis have difficulties speaking with each other, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: pdq
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 05:19 PM

As soon as somebody uses the term "palestinian" he has stepped into a trap.

Many garden variety Arabs have moved into Caanan=Palestine=Holly Land, the historical homeland of the Jewish people. Jews owned it 5000 years earlier than the Arabs.

The idea that there are a separate people and deserve a separate state began after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War.

Public Relations victories are less bloody than military ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 08:31 AM

PDQ,

In actual fact, there IS a Palestinian state.

In the early 1920's, when Mandate Palestine was having problems between the Arabs and Jews, the Mandate Authority ( Great Britain) DIVIDED the Mandate Palestine territory into "Palestine" and Transjordan, giving the 77% of the land area ( proportionate to the Arab population ) of Transjordan to the Arabs, and prohibiting Jewish settlement or land ownership there.

It was the JEWISH Homeland that was later divided by the UN, and the Arabs refused to acknowledge. Since the Arabs lost the war, JORDAN annexed the West Bank in 1948, and DID NOT establish an Arab state- in fact, they later (in the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan) stated it was Israeli territory.




It seems ok to claim that someone who has been someplace for 600 years has rights to the land, but those who have lived there for 2000 years are invaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 08:36 AM

BTW, the FACT that the Arab Palestinian state of Jordan has killed more Palestinians than the Israelis over the last 50 years, and goes unmentioned here is an indication that some here would seem to be fixated on attacking Israel, and have no interest in the Palestinians as people, just pawns to attack Israel with.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 09:57 AM

clarification:

In the early 1920's, when Mandate Palestine was having problems between the Arabs and Jews, the Mandate Authority ( Great Britain) DIVIDED the Mandate Palestine territory into "THE JEWISH HOMELAND OF Palestine" and Transjordan, giving the 77% of the land area ( proportionate to the Arab population ) of THE MANDATE to the Arabs, and prohibiting Jewish settlement or land ownership IN THE ARAB PORTION.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:22 AM

""How can you discuss persecution of minorities in a state and not make a comparison if neighbouring states are considerably worse?""

No Keith!....It is YOU who needs (desperately) a way to jusify the unjustifiable!!

Start a thread about Egypt and I'll be happy to discuss their shortcomings, but I will not give you the satifaction of using that as an exoneration of Israel's shortcomings.

Human rights abuse is an absolute, not a graded competition.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: pdq
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:29 AM

bb,

I am making a basic point. The Arabs living within the boundries of the traditional Jewish homeland are just that: Arabs who moved into somebody else's territory.

The idea that they deserve a special name and have the right to self-determination started in about 1967, probably by Yaser Arafat and his terrorist brain trust.

We need to stop using the name "palestinian" completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:30 AM

""However, Palestinians regard a "Jewish state" as a trap, a new demand that did not come up during years of negotiations in the 1990s or in peace treaties reached with Egypt and Jordan. The Palestine Liberation Organization recognized the State of Israel as part of the Oslo Accords in 1993. Palestinians regard acceptance of the demand as giving up the right of return.""

And SO DO I!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM

""BTW, the FACT that the Arab Palestinian state of Jordan has killed more Palestinians than the Israelis over the last 50 years, and goes unmentioned here is an indication that some here would seem to be fixated on attacking Israel, and have no interest in the Palestinians as people, just pawns to attack Israel with.""

Well perhaps you, in your infinite wisdom, will tell us just what you think we might do about those already killed, to bring them back to life.

Meanwhile we, with your kind permission, will continue to concern ourselves with those who might yet be saved by curbing Israel's hunger for land belonging to its neighbours.

OK?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:44 AM

" by curbing Israel's hunger for land belonging to its neighbours."



Yet it is the Arab peoples and nations hunger for the land belonging to Israel that has been the problem since the 1920's.


AND YOU KEEP SILENT ABOUT THAT.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:47 AM

Don and Jim,

ANY time you mention any Israeli killings of any Arabs, I will point out that

"Well perhaps you, in your infinite wisdom, will tell us just what you think we might do about those already killed, to bring them back to life."

If it applies to the Arabs, it applies to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 01:43 PM

Don,

Re Jewish State:

The British Mandate For Palestine
San Remo Conference, April 24, 1920

Since this CREATED "Palestine", perhaps you need to read it...


ARTICLE 2.

The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ARTICLE 3.

The Mandatory shall, so far as circumstances permit, encourage local autonomy.

ARTICLE 4.

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and cooperating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist Organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall he recognized as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the cooperation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

ARTICLE 5.

The Mandatory shall be responsible for seeing that no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of, the Government of any foreign Power.

ARTICLE 6.

The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

ARTICLE 7.

The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 01:51 PM

'Emir Abdullah soon succeeded in loosening the British mandate over Transjordan with an Anglo-Transjordanian treaty. On May 15, 1923, Britain formally recognized the Emirate of Transjordan as a state under the leadership of Emir Abdullah. This angered the Zionists, as it effectively severed Transjordan from Palestine and so reduced the area of any future Jewish national home in the region. The treaty stipulated that Transjordan would be prepared for independence under the general supervision of the British high commissioner in Jerusalem, and recognized Emir Abdullah as head of state. In May 1925, the Aqaba and Ma'an districts of the Hijaz became part of Transjordan."


http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_transjordan.html

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 01:57 PM

"The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan now included nearly one and a half million people, more than half a million of whom were refugees evicted from Jewish-occupied Palestine.
********************************************************************************************
All automatically became citizens of Jordan, a right that had first been offered in December 1949 to all Palestinians who wished to claim it.
********************************************************************************************
Although the Arab League opposed this plan, and no other Arab government followed Jordan's lead, the Hashemite Kingdom offered the possibility of normal life for many people who would have otherwise remained stateless refugees.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 02:03 PM

As Israel took in and settled the Jewish refugees from Arab lands, Jordan took in and settled the Palestinian Arabs.

END of Palestinian claims to Israeli territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 02:25 PM

Egypt reopens Gaza crossing

    |       |   A A

AGENCE FRANCE PRESSE
Sunday 26 August 2012
Last Update 26 August 2012 5:13 am
CAIRO: Egypt decided on Saturday to reopen a border crossing with Gaza it had mostly kept closed since a militant attack killed 16 of its soldiers on August 5, the official MENA news agency reported.
It said the Rafah border crossing, the Palestinian territory's only passage which bypasses Israel, would return to opening six days a week, like before the attack.
Egypt allowed only a trickle of Palestinians to use the crossing to enter Gaza after the attack in Sinai that the military said took place under the cover of mortar fire from Gaza.
The attack on an army outpost came as Egypt's new president, the Islamist Muhammad Mursi, was seen as making overtures to Gaza's Islamist Hamas rulers, who had strained relations with his overthrown predecessor Hosni Mubarak.
It prompted an unprecedented military campaign in the Sinai peninsula, a haven for the Islamist militants believed to have carried out the attack, and a crackdown on smuggling tunnels between Egypt and Gaza.
Security officials said on Saturday that military engineers have blocked 120 tunnels since the start of the operation.
Egyptian officials have charged that some of the 35 gunmen who stormed the army post had crossed from Gaza through the network of smuggling tunnels that run under the border.
But Gaza's Hamas rulers have said no Palestinians are suspected of involvement in the attack.


http://www.arabnews.com/egypt-reopens-gaza-crossing

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM

Note the date- The present time was NOT the first time that Egypt was attacked FROM GAZA- I think the Egyptians have a better idea of who to blame than Don does.

Or is he claiming that the Egyptians are just too stupid to realize what he does- that Israel is responsible for any bad in the entire world?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:54 AM

Don, the Bedouin are a regional issue.
While discussing the situation in Israel, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that their treatment in Israel is by far the best in the region.
How can any reasonable, unprejudiced person object to that observation?

"The rate of growth of the Negev Bedouin is the highest in the world – the Bedouin
population doubles its size every 15 years. By 2020, the Bedouin population of the
Negev will be 300,000.
Israel provides its citizens with high quality public services in sanitation, health
and education, and municipal services. These services can only be provided to
those living in permanent housing, and the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an
extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services.
Israel is currently building eight new villages or towns for the Negev Bedouin.
These townships are intended to meet all the present and future needs of this
population.
The government of Israel has allocated more than NIS1 billion for the benefit of
this population. Aside from building new townships for the Bedouin in the Negev,
the Israeli government plans to invest more than NIS 1 billion in a multi-phased
program to improve the infrastructure of existing Bedouin towns and to develop their
public facilities."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:31 AM

""Yet it is the Arab peoples and nations hunger for the land belonging to Israel that has been the problem since the 1920's.""

WOW! So prescience is real!

They wanted Israel's land 28 years before Israel existed.

They had that land in 1920, or hadn't you noticed that there wasn't an Israel, Jewish or otherwise?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:34 AM

""If it applies to the Arabs, it applies to Israel.""

In a ratio of ten dead arabs for each dead Israeli in open fights, and hundreds to one in Israel's vicious and indiscrimnate retaliatory actions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:57 AM

""-snip- The attack on an army outpost came as Egypt's new president, the Islamist Muhammad Mursi, was seen as making overtures to Gaza's Islamist Hamas rulers, who had strained relations with his overthrown predecessor Hosni Mubarak. -snip-""

"" -snip- Egyptian officials have charged that some of the 35 gunmen who stormed the army post had crossed from Gaza through the network of smuggling tunnels that run under the border.
But Gaza's Hamas rulers have said no Palestinians are suspected of involvement in the attack. -snip-""

1. Why would Hamas or any other group in Gaza attack an Egyptian outpost, just when they are establishing a rapport with Egypt's new government? The idea has little or no credibility!

2. Hamas is probably in a better position than you Bruce, to know whether they or any of other Gazans were involved.

The above is more supportive of my take on the situation than yours.

So, once again, WHO has most to gain from restrictions on the Gaza/Egypt border further isolating Gaza.

It is certainly diverting attention from the creeping annexation of the West Bank, which the UN has condemned as illegal.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:10 AM

""Don, the Bedouin are a regional issue.
While discussing the situation in Israel, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that their treatment in Israel is by far the best in the region.
How can any reasonable, unprejudiced person object to that observation?""

Very easily, which, if you were a reasonable person, you would understand.

You are asking for Israel's treatment of their Bedouin minority to be accepted as fair and reasonable, simply because others treat Bedouins worse.

That is a mendacious and unacceptable suggestion.

It is an outright LIE to make any such claim, regardless of how much worse the treatment may be elsewhere, and dishonest to adduce that worse treatment as evidence in an attempt to exonerate the lesser.

You may honestly say that Israel are not as bad as some others, though nonetheless bad enough in their own human rights abuse.

Saddam Hussein was no less a monster because Pol Pot was worse!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:29 AM


1. Why would Hamas or any other group in Gaza attack an Egyptian outpost, just when they are establishing a rapport with Egypt's new government? The idea has little or no credibility!

The attack was on Israel.
They just wanted to capture and use Egyptian vehicles for the attack.
They probably believed the Egyptians would not resist.

2. Hamas is probably in a better position than you Bruce, to know whether they or any of other Gazans were involved.

With 16 dead Egyptians and no dead Israelis, they can't admit it.
They lie.
Egypt is probably in a better position to know than you Don.
Egypt poured shit over them.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:38 AM


You are asking for Israel's treatment of their Bedouin minority to be accepted as fair and reasonable, simply because others treat Bedouins worse.

I think that Israel's treatment is fair and reasonable.
The population is the fastest growing in the whole world.
Persecuted populations, like Christians and Jews in Arab lands, dwindle to extinction.

"The rate of growth of the Negev Bedouin is the highest in the world – the Bedouin
population doubles its size every 15 years. By 2020, the Bedouin population of the
Negev will be 300,000.
Israel provides its citizens with high quality public services in sanitation, health
and education, and municipal services. These services can only be provided to
those living in permanent housing, and the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an
extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services.
Israel is currently building eight new villages or towns for the Negev Bedouin.
These townships are intended to meet all the present and future needs of this
population.
The government of Israel has allocated more than NIS1 billion for the benefit of
this population. Aside from building new townships for the Bedouin in the Negev,
the Israeli government plans to invest more than NIS 1 billion in a multi-phased
program to improve the infrastructure of existing Bedouin towns and to develop their
public facilities."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM

They wanted Israel's land 28 years before Israel existed.

They had that land in 1920, or hadn't you noticed that there wasn't an Israel, Jewish or otherwise?

Israel was not a state then, but there were many Zionist settlers who called the land Isreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 06:05 AM

For comparison, Al Jazeera on Egypts Bedouin.

"the conflict stems from a lack of economic incentives in the region, which forces some Bedouins to turn to illegal activities such as drug and human trafficking and the smuggling of goods and weapons across the border with Gaza.



"The problem also stems from the fact that there are services that Egyptians can enjoy, but Bedouins do not - and that comes in the form of proper healthcare, access to clean water and other socioeconomic rights they are not given" Heba Morayef, the Cairo officer for Human Right's Watch, says.



"And apart from the tourism industry there are no other opportunities made available."



Bedouins also complain that the government has marginalised them from modern Egyptian society. Today, many do not hold national ID cards and are more loyal to their tribal chiefs than the state.



Ziad Moussa, a political analyst with the al-Ahram Centre for Political and Strategic Studies, says: "The government does not take into account that they are dealing with a culturally different people, there is no consideration for their ethics and values in their dealings."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 08:09 AM

Don,

Did you bother reading ANY of my posts before commenting?

Israel has been there for several thousand years.

YOU have claimed there is a Palestine- yet it did not exist between 1948 and now.

West Bank was Jordan, the state that the Arab Palestinians were given from the Mandate Palestine territory.

After 1967, Jordan agreed the border with Israel was the river.- The West Bank was PART OF ISRAEL.

In order to get peace with the Arab nations, Israel has talked about giving up territory to refugees and FORMING a Palestinian state. They are still waiting for peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:34 AM

Beardie's evidently off his meds again. Give it time - it'll clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:44 AM

As usual, the resident racist scum attacks people rather than discuss the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM

""The attack was on Israel.
They just wanted to capture and use Egyptian vehicles for the attack.
They probably believed the Egyptians would not resist.""

And that nugget of invented fantasy was sourced from.......?

Or are you now claiming a qualification as a mind reader?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:48 PM

""With 16 dead Egyptians and no dead Israelis, they can't admit it.
They lie.
Egypt is probably in a better position to know than you Don.
Egypt poured shit over them.""

And boy, don't you get a kick out of gloating when somebody other than you throws shit at Palestinians?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:57 PM

""Israel provides its citizens with high quality public services in sanitation, health and education, and municipal services. These services can only be provided to those living in permanent housing, and the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services.""

The Negev Bedouins seem to be living in village communities, or what exactly are the Israelis refusing to recognise?

The Bedouins have been farming that land as livestock farmers, and it would cost the government no more to recognise their villages and bring them up to a liveable standard, than to build townships where farmers cannot operate, forcing them into menial jobs serving the "real" Israelis.

Of course, the land vacated will be settled by "real" Israelis, who will be afforded the services and utilities which Israel "can't afford" to provide for mere Bedouin Arabs, and will continue the livestock farming stolen from those Arabs.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:00 PM

""Israel was not a state then, but there were many Zionist settlers who called the land Isreal.""

They could have called it Lilliput or Never-Never Land, but that wouldn't make it so until it was recognised as a state.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM

"" -snip- For comparison, Al Jazeera on Egypts Bedouin.

"the conflict stems from a lack of economic incentives in the region, which forces some Bedouins to turn to illegal activities such as drug and human trafficking and the smuggling of goods and weapons across the border with Gaza.

"The problem also stems from the fact that there are services that Egyptians can enjoy, but Bedouins do not - and that comes in the form of proper healthcare, access to clean water and other socioeconomic rights they are not given" Heba Morayef, the Cairo officer for Human Right's Watch, says. -snip- ...

-snip- Bedouins also complain that the government has marginalised them from modern Egyptian society. -snip- ...

-snip- "The government does not take into account that they are dealing with a culturally different people, there is no consideration for their ethics and values in their dealings." -snip-""

So Keith, please point out where precisely that treatment differs from Israel's treatment. It seems to me to be virtually indistinguishable, except that the Israeli Bedouins can hardly be smuggling drugs, goods and weapons into Gaza.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM

Gee, and I thought the called it "middle earth".

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:27 PM

""Israel has been there for several thousand years.

YOU have claimed there is a Palestine- yet it did not exist between 1948 and now.""

Herodotus, who lived 484 - 425 BC, mentions Palestinian Syria in his writings, so 1948 might be a tad irrelevant.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:37 PM

""In order to get peace with the Arab nations, Israel has talked about giving up territory to refugees and FORMING a Palestinian state. They are still waiting for peace.""

I'll cheer when they start talking to the Palestinians without pre-conditions designed to prevent a positive response.

Maybe then there will be some point in talking.

And what right does Israel have to ""FORM a Palestinian or any other state?""

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 03:25 PM

""The attack was on Israel.
They just wanted to capture and use Egyptian vehicles for the attack.
They probably believed the Egyptians would not resist.""

And that nugget of invented fantasy was sourced from.......?

Not invented fantasy Don.
That is what actually happened.
Look it up.


So Keith, please point out where precisely that treatment differs from Israel's treatment.
Israel is investing millions in providing improved living conditions for its Bedouin citizens.
Egypt spends not a shekel, denies them even basic citizenship. bulldozes their pathetic homes, denies them employment, ....

How Egyptian Bedouin must envy Bedouin Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:57 AM

Guardian 6th August.
Israel warned of a deteriorating security situation in the Sinai after gunmen killed about 15 Egyptian border guards and hijacked armoured vehicles to launch an attack across the Israeli border.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:39 AM

""Israel is investing millions in providing improved living conditions for its Bedouin citizens.""

Why not where they currently live and can support themselves by livestock farming as they have for 550 years before they had the misfortune to find themselves in Israel?

Why are they being deprived of the ability to support themselves and parked in townships, instead of being helped to be self sufficient.

It can't be lack of money, because it would cost no more to keep them where they are, and in the long run cost much less, with them supplying meat to the wider community.

IT IS ALL ABOUT CONTROL AND APARTHEIT!

And what Egypt does has no relevance to that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:55 AM

Gunmen kill 16 Egypt border guards, enter Israel

By Ines Bel Aiba (AFP) – Aug 5, 2012

CAIRO — Gunmen killed 16 guards in Egypt near the border with Israel before stealing two armoured vehicles and crossing into the Jewish state where one vehicle was destroyed by a helicopter.

An Egyptian medical official said gunmen in Bedouin attire drove up in two vehicles and opened fire on a checkpoint near the Karm Abu Salem (Kerem Shalom in Hebrew) border crossing and opened fire.

The health ministry said 16 soldiers and border guards were killed, while a security official said another seven were wounded.

The official MENA news agency said the gunmen were "jihadists" from inside the Islamist Hamas-run Gaza Strip.


AFP


Note: MENA = the Middle East News Agency (MENA), an Egyptian publicly funded news agency - not Jew owned or controlled as far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:15 AM

"The new villages are being planned in full consultation with representatives of
the people who will populate them. Designs for the new villages fully address the
needs of the Bedouin population of the Negev since tribal representatives have been
closely involved in planning the villages and addressing their populations' needs.
Different types of villages will be established to meet the respective needs of their
residents. The eight new villages will be in a variety of formats: urban, suburban, or
agricultural, depending on their residents' needs. For example, some settlements will
have special sheep pens constructed just outside the village, to cater for the villagers'
flocks, while other villages will have plots of land for farming adjacent to residential
zones.
To maintain the local character, the Israeli government leases hundreds of
thousands of dunams of agricultural land to the Bedouin, at a symbolic cost of up
to NIS 2 per dunam. The state wants to help the Bedouin continue their farming
Page 5 of 10
activities, and it leases hundreds of thousands of dunams annually for a symbolic
amount of up to NIS2 per dunam per season."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:32 AM

""The official MENA news agency said the gunmen were "jihadists" from inside the Islamist Hamas-run Gaza Strip.""

Dressed as Bedouins, Hamas disowns them and says it had nothing to do with the attack, nobody has, as yet proved their identities and the Egyptian government says "Some of them came through the tunnels from Gaza", but the MENA quote suits you better, so you no longer believe the Egyptian line you have been pushing for the last week.

VERY CONVINCING!....NOT!

Of course, if they are in Israel, they can conveniently vanish from sight and we'll never know whether they were Mossad deliberately destroying any possible rapport between Gaza and Egypt,...WILL WE?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:35 AM

The Mena report does not say the tunnels were not used and does say that they came from "inside Gaza."

Are you aware of any sentient being or source in the whole world who disputes those events Don.

Even Hamas only deny responsibility for it.
I acknowledge their version and make no assertion, but point out that no-one believes them except you Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 12:32 PM

Human Rights Watch which has often taken Israel to task has also taken Hamas (as representing Palestinians) to task. But I suppose no one is interested in that, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:02 PM

Also Egypt for their treatment of Bedouin 999, as my post 05 Mar 13 - 06:05 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 05:14 PM

Thanks, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:19 PM

""Human Rights Watch which has often taken Israel to task has also taken Hamas (as representing Palestinians) to task. But I suppose no one is interested in that, huh?""

No fair Bruce!

Read my posts, in which I keep saying that 1). Both sides are guilty and 2). None of us know who is lying and who is not, and we should be examining some criteria such as "Who stands to gain?"

What we should not be doing is claiming, without presenting evidence, and without acknowledging that there are two sides to argument, that only one side of the story can possibly be right.

Only Keith and BB, occasionally backed by Bobad, have presented a totally one sided case.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM

""Also Egypt for their treatment of Bedouin 999, as my post 05 Mar 13 - 06:05 AM""

Advance that as a mitigating argument in any court and it will be ruled inadmissible on grounds of irrelevance.

Yet Keith repeatedly and futilely tries to use it to exonerate Israel from blame ""Because Egypt is worse"".

Irrelevant yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:19 AM

Only Keith and BB, occasionally backed by Bobad, have presented a totally one sided case.

Do not be silly Don.
You lot put the case against Israel and only the case against. We reply with Israel's side of the story.

That is how debate works.
It shows how weak your case is that you object to others putting a different viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:24 AM

The Bedouin.
You and Jim have posted propaganda about Israel's treatment of them.
I have posted evidence that Israel is doing all that could be reasonably expected of any nation.

I have also pointed out that Bedouin are subject to real persecution in neighbouring states and that it is unfair to single out Israel.
In your opinion that is breaking some unwritten rule.
I think it a perfectly reasonable fact to throw in the balance.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:28 AM

""I think it a perfectly reasonable fact to throw in the balance.""

You think....

I have for some time doubted your ability to do that.

In precisely what way does Egypt's human rights abuse record make it somehow alright for Israel to abuse human rights, at any level?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:40 AM

FROM YOUR OWN POST KEITH!

"" -snip- For comparison, Al Jazeera on Egypts Bedouin.

"The problem also stems from the fact that there are services that Egyptians can enjoy, but Bedouins do not - and that comes in the form of proper healthcare, access to clean water and other socioeconomic rights they are not given" Heba Morayef, the Cairo officer for Human Right's Watch, says. -snip- ...""

Likewise, there are services that Israelis can enjoy, but Bedouins do not - and that comes in the form of proper healthcare, access to clean water and other socioeconomic rights they are not given"

""-snip- Bedouins also complain that the government has marginalised them from modern Egyptian society. -snip- ...""

Israel, of course, is just getting around to this, with plans to put the Bedouin in townships and give Israelis the land vacated, with all the benefits that the Bedouin have been denied..

""-snip- "The government does not take into account that they are dealing with a culturally different people, there is no consideration for their ethics and values in their dealings." -snip-""

And that completes the comparison, with Israeli Bedouin taken away from their hereditary land and deprived of the ability to support themselves as they have for 600 years, and made vassals to the greed of Israeli settlers.

So, NOT MUCH DIFFERENT THAN THE EGYPTIAN MODEL!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:46 AM

FROM YOUR OWN POST KEITH!

"" -snip- For comparison, Al Jazeera on Egypts Bedouin.

"The problem also stems from the fact that there are services that Egyptians can enjoy, but Bedouins do not - and that comes in the form of proper healthcare, access to clean water and other socioeconomic rights they are not given" Heba Morayef, the Cairo officer for Human Right's Watch, says. -snip- ...""

Likewise, there are services that Israelis can enjoy, but Bedouins do not - and that comes in the form of proper healthcare, access to clean water and other socioeconomic rights they are not given

""-snip- Bedouins also complain that the government has marginalised them from modern Egyptian society. -snip- ...""

Israel, of course, is just getting around to this, with plans to put the Bedouin in townships and give Israelis the land vacated, with all the benefits that the Bedouin have been denied..

""-snip- "The government does not take into account that they are dealing with a culturally different people, there is no consideration for their ethics and values in their dealings." -snip-""

And that completes the comparison, with Israeli Bedouin taken away from their hereditary land and deprived of the ability to support themselves as they have for 600 years, and made vassals to the greed of Israeli settlers.

So, NOT MUCH DIFFERENT THAN THE EGYPTIAN MODEL!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:20 AM

In precisely what way does Egypt's human rights abuse record make it somehow alright for Israel to abuse human rights, at any level?

I am not convinced of Bedouin rights abuse, and in any discussion of their treatment it is valid to compare how different states deal with the same issues.
Bedouin Israelis have equal rights, enforceable by law, as all citizens. How their Egyptian brethren must envy them.

Likewise, there are services that Israelis can enjoy, but Bedouins do not - and that comes in the form of proper healthcare, access to clean water and other socioeconomic rights they are not given

No.

"Israel provides its citizens with high quality public services in sanitation, health
and education, and municipal services. These services can only be provided to
those living in permanent housing, and the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an
extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services.
Israel is currently building eight new villages or towns for the Negev Bedouin.
These townships are intended to meet all the present and future needs of this
population.
The government of Israel has allocated more than NIS1 billion for the benefit of
this population. Aside from building new townships for the Bedouin in the Negev,
the Israeli government plans to invest more than NIS 1 billion in a multi-phased
program to improve the infrastructure of existing Bedouin towns and to develop their
public facilities."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM

""These services can only be provided to
those living in permanent housing, and the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an
extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services.
Israel is currently building eight new villages or towns for the Negev Bedouin.""

But when the Bedouin are gone, the resources to supply multiple Israeli settlements which will take over the livestock farming formerly done by those Bedouin, will undoubtedly appear as if by magic.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:18 PM

And once more you ignore a simple but inconvenient question.

If they are spending that money, why not spend it on building where the unrecognised Bedouin villages currently are.

You see there are two lies there.

1. The Negev Bedouin are in villages. Israel refuses to recognise them because to do so would negate the excuse that they are spread over a huge area which canot be supplied with facilities.

2. There will be no difficulty in supplying the Israeli settlers who take over that land and those villages will be bulldozed and replaced with state of the art dwellings, much too good for Arabs.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:03 PM

Those Bedouin live in isolated camps and small villages in tents and tin shacks.
No sanitation or services.
Israel is spending billions to give them the same services as they supply to all citizens.
Bedouin are full citizens in Israel, unlike their poor wretched brethren in Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:45 PM

If they are spending that money, why not spend it on building where the unrecognised Bedouin villages currently are.
In some cases that actually is being done.

Generally, the problem is that new homes must be provided without rendering anyone homeless, however grim their habitation is.
So new villages are built before the old camps are abandoned.
The distances involved are trivial.
The Negev is a small area of a tiny country.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 05:16 AM

""Generally, the problem is that new homes must be provided without rendering anyone homeless, however grim their habitation is.
So new villages are built before the old camps are abandoned.""

Disingenuous! A new village could easily be built right alongside the existing one, involving no removal and leaving only the carting away of the debris of the old village. That way the people would be able to continue farming in their traditional way, and be self supporting.

Of course, what is actually being built is townships, not villages, where farming as a way of living is not an option.

""The distances involved are trivial.
The Negev is a small area of a tiny country.""

Amazing! Just a few posts back you were saying that it was impossible to supply basic facilities, because ""the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services.""

At every turn you slither away from answering the questions you are asked, in favour of presenting a predigested mantra you have learned by heart.

You would have made a wonderful politician, devious, evasive, economical with the truth and completely devoid of any desire to debate issues openly and honestly. In short, you would be a genius at the art of toeing the party line.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 05:56 AM

Of course, what is actually being built is townships, not villages, where farming as a way of living is not an option.

"Different types of villages will be established to meet the respective needs of their
residents. The eight new villages will be in a variety of formats: urban, suburban, or
agricultural, depending on their residents' needs. For example, some settlements will
have special sheep pens constructed just outside the village, to cater for the villagers'
flocks, while other villages will have plots of land for farming adjacent to residential
zones."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 11:07 AM

We'll see, if and when it actually happens!

If the Bedouin are left where they are or moved to high crime areas I shall have a lot more to say to you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:46 AM

...


Egypt's Islamists warn giving women some rights could destroy society

By Michelle Nichols
UNITED NATIONS | Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:03pm EDT
(Reuters) - Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood warns that a U.N. declaration on women's rights could destroy society by allowing a woman to travel, work and use contraception without her husband's approval and letting her control family spending.

The Islamist movement that backs President Mohamed Mursi gave 10 reasons why Muslim countries should "reject and condemn" the declaration, which the U.N. Commission on the Status of Women is racing to negotiate a consensus deal on by Friday.

The Brotherhood, whose Freedom and Justice Party propelled Mursi to power in June, posted the statement on its website, www.ikhwanweb.com, and the website of the party on Thursday.

Egypt has joined Iran, Russia and the Vatican - dubbed an "unholy alliance" by some diplomats - in threatening to derail the women's rights declaration by objecting to language on sexual, reproductive and gay rights.

The Muslim Brotherhood said the declaration would give "wives full rights to file legal complaints against husbands accusing them of rape or sexual harassment, obliging competent authorities to deal husbands punishments similar to those prescribed for raping or sexually harassing a stranger."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:33 AM

and use contraception

Kind like Catholics & fundagelical "Christians"[sic] ya mean, BB?

You obviously need to review the status of Women under certain sects of Christians as well as under Orthodox, Conservative, Hasidic & Lubavitcher Judaism.

If you want to keep claiming that you're giving "fair and balanced" information about both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 10:05 AM

Egypt sh*ts down tunnels to Gaza

What a difference a vowel makes!

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:04 AM

Egypt says 7 Palestinians deported to Gaza
By MAAMOUN YOUSSEF | Associated Press – Sat, Mar 16, 2013
Email
Share161
Print
CAIRO (AP) — Egyptian authorities deported seven Palestinians to the Gaza Strip after they were detained for security reasons upon their arrival to Cairo airport, the state news agency said Saturday.
It was the latest indication of growing tension between the Palestinian militant movement Hamas in Gaza and Egyptian President Mohammad Morsi, who hails from the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood group from which Hamas is an offshoot.
The Palestinians were arrested in the same week that a state-owned Egyptian magazine published a report accusing Hamas of orchestrating the killing of 16 Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai Peninsula in August 2012 — one of the bloodiest attacks against the Egyptian army in decades.
Hamas officials deny involvement in the deadly attack and also say the seven Palestinians were wrongfully held.
Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood said in a statement that Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal assured the group's supreme guide, Mohamed Badie, that "Hamas and all the Palestinians respect Egypt's security and do not intervene in its internal affairs."
The two met at Badie's office in Cairo on Saturday.
Mashaal also told Badie that the Palestinians consider Egypt a "strong pillar of support for the Palestinian issue and appreciate the sacrifices of Egypt and the Egyptian army."
Hamas had poor relations with former longtime Egyptian ruler Hosni Mubarak, who cooperated with Israel in imposing a blockade on the Gaza Strip after the Islamist group seized control there following elections in 2005.
After Egypt's 2011 uprising that ousted Mubarak, the Muslim Brotherhood rose to power in Egypt, raising hopes in Gaza that Cairo's relationship with the enclave would improve.
The Palestinians, who were flying from Syria to Cairo, were detained on Tuesday because they did not have exit stamps, the state-run MENA agency reported. They were released three days later after investigations showed no illegal activity.
Syrian authorities do not stamp passports issued by the Palestinian Authority, which has a measure of limited self-rule over Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Instead, they stamp papers that Palestinians hold as proof of entry and exits instead.
"Thank God for their safe arrival," leading Hamas official Mousa Abu Marzouk wrote on his Facebook page.
Cross-border tunnels are another issue that has raised tension between Egypt and Gaza.
For the past several weeks, Egyptian authorities have been destroying smuggling tunnels that crisscross the Egypt-Gaza border. Gaza smugglers use the tunnels to ship cheap fuel, scarce construction materials and commercial goods into the territory, which is largely under an Israeli-Egyptian blockade. Other tunnels are used to haul in weapons and sneak in militants.
The Egyptian effort appears to be aimed at closing down the illegal routes to better control what is going in, but Hamas has accused Egypt of destroying the tunnels in order to halt a thriving smuggling trade that has propped up the local economy for the past five years.
Egypt's military, in particular, appears to view Hamas with suspicion, in part because the smuggling network into Gaza appears to overlap with Islamist militant groups in the Sinai Peninsula. The defense minister recently warned that the military is prepared to confront "anyone who dares to harm Egypt's security or armed forces."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:15 AM

" a state-owned Egyptian magazine published a report accusing Hamas of orchestrating the killing of 16 Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai Peninsula in August 2012 — one of the bloodiest attacks against the Egyptian army in decades."

You missed that one Jim.
Not obscure enough I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 12:38 PM

If it had been Israel killing 16, they would have yelled loud enough...



But they do not care about lives, just attacking Israel.


Statement of fact : Demonstrated by posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 09:47 AM

not a peep from the Anti-Israel crowd...

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:05 AM

""" a state-owned Egyptian magazine published a report accusing Hamas of orchestrating the killing of 16 Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai Peninsula in August 2012 — one of the bloodiest attacks against the Egyptian army in decades."""

Still no proof that the killers were Palestinian. For Hamas to kill those Egyptians simply made no sense, when they were trying to get some rapport with Egypt.

As to the Egyptians going along with the preferred line (by the back door of ""a state-owned Egyptian magazine"", well they've seen what happens to people who upset the Israelis and they've enough problems already.

It would have been more credible if the Egyptian government had come straight out with it.

So, no rapport between Hamas and Egypt. Score one more success for Mossad??

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:06 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM

It is clear from their actions, never mind their publications, who Egypt blames for the attacks.
Yet you know better?
Your sources of intelligence are presumably much better than silly old Egypt's security forces.

Don, you lose all rationality and reason whenever Israel is mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM

Instead of making childish remarks, why not for once open your mind (if any) and actually consider the points I make, then tell me that you really believe Mossad would be incapable of such action.

I'm not saying they did it, I'm simply pointing out that it would make more sense than Hamas deliberately shhoting itself in the foot.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:46 AM

tell me that you really believe Mossad would be incapable of such action.
They might be capable, but it is hard to believe they would make a suicide attack into Israel.
Seriously Don?

I'm not saying they did it
Neither of us is in a position to say who did or did not do it.
Egypt is, and has made it very clear who they blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:23 AM

""Neither of us is in a position to say who did or did not do it.
Egypt is, and has made it very clear who they blame.""

The first sentence is correct and sensible.

Your confidence in Egypt's declaration of blame owes more to your devotion to Israel than to common sense.

Given two alternatives, without direct knowledge of which is correct, you will always choose that which favours Israel.

You cannot help it. It is a salient feature of racism, positive or negative, and it is possible to be positively racist.

We keep putting up two sides and you always reduce them to Israel is RIGHT

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:34 AM

Your confidence in Egypt's declaration of blame owes more to your devotion to Israel than to common sense.
No.
Why else did they pour sewage down the tunnels and have state run publications say who did it?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:28 AM

BBC today.
Egyptian police have sealed off the Rafah border crossing with the Gaza Strip in protest at the abduction of seven security personnel in Sinai.

Reports say police locked the gates and placed barbed wire at the entrance.

Rafah is the only regular exit from Gaza for 1.6m Palestinians living there. Other crossings into Israel are allowed only in exceptional cases.

The three policemen and four soldiers were captured while travelling in the peninsula, east of El Arish.

Four of the men worked at the Rafah crossing, reports said.

An Egyptian security official said the Rafah crossing will remain closed until the group is released, the Associated Press news agency reported.

The Palestinian Maan news agency said Gaza's Interior Ministry declared a state of alert along its border with Egypt and large numbers of Egyptian soldiers have been in the area.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:37 AM

As for the need to feed Gazans,...


LOUISVILLE, Ky. (CBS Cleveland) - A new company has emerged in the Middle East that smuggles fast food from an Egyptian Kentucky Fried Chicken to Gaza residents through a tunnel.

People in the conflicted region can now satisfy cravings for food from the Louisville-based fast food headquarters by ordering through a company that charges the American equivalent of $30 for smugglers to bring the greasy goods from Al-Arish in Egypt to the doorsteps of hungry customers.

Deliveries take approximately three hours, according to the Christian Science Monitor. But for those who use the business, the end result is worth the wait.

"It has been a dream, and this company has made my dream come true," accountant and Gaza resident Rafat Shororo told the publication while getting his delivery.


Mohammed al-Madani, who manages the company's finances, said that the idea for the business came from their own craving for KFC. An associate of his decided to call a friend in Al-Arish with a request to bring chicken through the tunnel to their location.

When the plan worked, al-Madani saw an opportunity.

"[W]e asked ourselves, 'Why don't we provide this service for Gazans?'" he said. "After getting the orders, we call our partner in al-Arish and ask him to make the orders. After getting the meals, he goes to a specific tunnel and asks smugglers to transfer them into the other side of the tunnel; this may take a few minutes."

Once the associate orders the food and brings it to the specific tunnel used for the deliveries, tunnel smugglers such as Abu Iyad complete the transfer, though they are not accustomed to assisting in food deliveries.

"This is the first time to smuggle such goods," he told the Monitor.

Once on the Gaza side of the tunnel, Hamas police officers give the chicken permission to go to the delivery person who completes the final leg of the trip.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 13 - 09:28 AM

This relates to the border attack which led in Egypt flooding tunnels.
Hamas/Iran activists operating from Sinai were held responsible.
Same BBC piece.
Sinai has become increasingly lawless since President Hosni Mubarak was ousted in 2011.

Islamist militants in northern Sinai have used the lack of central authority to carry out attacks across the border into Israel.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22565286

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 13 - 09:48 AM

Don T


Given two alternatives, without direct knowledge of which is correct, you have always chosen that which criticizes Israel.

You cannot help it. It is a salient feature of racism, positive or negative, and it is possible to be negatively racist.

We keep putting up two sides and you always reduce them to Israel is WRONG.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:00 AM

Yes Don.
Are you still hoping to blame Israel for that attack at Rafah?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:47 AM

Sorry, Beardy, but Israelis are not a "race". Better go re-take that high school anthropology course.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 13 - 12:13 PM

Talk to Don T, Greggie boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:09 PM

Why should I talk to Don, Beardy? Nowhere did he claim that Israelis were a "race". That's all you.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 May 13 - 04:53 PM

""You cannot help it. It is a salient feature of racism, positive or negative, and it is possible to be negatively racist.

We keep putting up two sides and you always reduce them to Israel is WRONG.""

There is ample evidence in several threads that this is a total reversal of the truth.

Ther are multiple posts from me stating that both sides bear blame for what is happening.

There is a total dearth of anything from you or your minority hating lapdog which in any way is critical of the actions of the hardline Zionist government that currently uses the IDF as a tool to ethnically cleanse Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:21 AM

Don, this discussion is about the tunnels and the killing of Egyptian soldiers that led to their closure.
You blamed Mossad even though Egypt itself blamed Hamas.
What did they know, right?

The BBC clearly also believes Hamas responsible.

The attackers crashed across the border to Israel and were engaged and destroyed by IDF.
Reason could not lead anyone to blame Israel.
Only a massive, bigoted prejudice against one country.
Right Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:12 AM

"Egypt itself blamed Hamas."
A gentle reminder.
The Egyptian opposition to the present regime have dismissed the Government's claims of the reasons for closing the tunnels and have put them down to economic reasons.
You have described the human rights record as being "worse than Israel's" yet once again you are choosing to side with a despotic government over the claims of an opposition trying to introduce democracy into the country right Keith?
"Which side are you on" - a "terrorist Egyptian regime or the findings those trying to depose it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:34 AM

Economic reasons for stopping trade?
Rubbish.
Not taking sides Jim, but do you deny that Egypt held Hamas responsible and that BBC states it as fact?

Why else did they pour sewage down the tunnels and have state run publications blame Hamas?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:37 AM

That would be "a despotic government over the claims of an opposition trying to introduce democracy into the country"
Just as long as we know!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 13 - 06:02 AM

"Why else did they pour sewage down the tunnels and have state run publications blame Hamas?"
You've been give the counterclaims ages ago - you dismissed it at the time because you said the main Egyptian opposition newspaper it came from was "an obscure journal and that the Egyptian Government "should know what they are talking about"!!!
Your blanket support for terrorist regimes appears to encompass all cultures and know no boundaries.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 13 - 08:40 AM

Opposition publications do not give the view of government.
State run publications do, and they blamed Hamas.
So, the Egyptian government, advised by its security services, know that Hamas was complicit, and is also complicit in the current abductions.

Why should anyone give a shit who Don Wysiwig or you want to blame, for your own deeply prejudiced reasons?