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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: bobad Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:55 AM Gunmen kill 16 Egypt border guards, enter Israel By Ines Bel Aiba (AFP) – Aug 5, 2012 CAIRO — Gunmen killed 16 guards in Egypt near the border with Israel before stealing two armoured vehicles and crossing into the Jewish state where one vehicle was destroyed by a helicopter. An Egyptian medical official said gunmen in Bedouin attire drove up in two vehicles and opened fire on a checkpoint near the Karm Abu Salem (Kerem Shalom in Hebrew) border crossing and opened fire. The health ministry said 16 soldiers and border guards were killed, while a security official said another seven were wounded. The official MENA news agency said the gunmen were "jihadists" from inside the Islamist Hamas-run Gaza Strip. AFP Note: MENA = the Middle East News Agency (MENA), an Egyptian publicly funded news agency - not Jew owned or controlled as far as I know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:39 AM ""Israel is investing millions in providing improved living conditions for its Bedouin citizens."" Why not where they currently live and can support themselves by livestock farming as they have for 550 years before they had the misfortune to find themselves in Israel? Why are they being deprived of the ability to support themselves and parked in townships, instead of being helped to be self sufficient. It can't be lack of money, because it would cost no more to keep them where they are, and in the long run cost much less, with them supplying meat to the wider community. IT IS ALL ABOUT CONTROL AND APARTHEIT! And what Egypt does has no relevance to that. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:57 AM Guardian 6th August. Israel warned of a deteriorating security situation in the Sinai after gunmen killed about 15 Egyptian border guards and hijacked armoured vehicles to launch an attack across the Israeli border. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Mar 13 - 03:25 PM ""The attack was on Israel. They just wanted to capture and use Egyptian vehicles for the attack. They probably believed the Egyptians would not resist."" And that nugget of invented fantasy was sourced from.......? Not invented fantasy Don. That is what actually happened. Look it up. So Keith, please point out where precisely that treatment differs from Israel's treatment. Israel is investing millions in providing improved living conditions for its Bedouin citizens. Egypt spends not a shekel, denies them even basic citizenship. bulldozes their pathetic homes, denies them employment, .... How Egyptian Bedouin must envy Bedouin Israelis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:37 PM ""In order to get peace with the Arab nations, Israel has talked about giving up territory to refugees and FORMING a Palestinian state. They are still waiting for peace."" I'll cheer when they start talking to the Palestinians without pre-conditions designed to prevent a positive response. Maybe then there will be some point in talking. And what right does Israel have to ""FORM a Palestinian or any other state?"" Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:27 PM ""Israel has been there for several thousand years. YOU have claimed there is a Palestine- yet it did not exist between 1948 and now."" Herodotus, who lived 484 - 425 BC, mentions Palestinian Syria in his writings, so 1948 might be a tad irrelevant. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Greg F. Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM Gee, and I thought the called it "middle earth". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM "" -snip- For comparison, Al Jazeera on Egypts Bedouin. "the conflict stems from a lack of economic incentives in the region, which forces some Bedouins to turn to illegal activities such as drug and human trafficking and the smuggling of goods and weapons across the border with Gaza. "The problem also stems from the fact that there are services that Egyptians can enjoy, but Bedouins do not - and that comes in the form of proper healthcare, access to clean water and other socioeconomic rights they are not given" Heba Morayef, the Cairo officer for Human Right's Watch, says. -snip- ... -snip- Bedouins also complain that the government has marginalised them from modern Egyptian society. -snip- ... -snip- "The government does not take into account that they are dealing with a culturally different people, there is no consideration for their ethics and values in their dealings." -snip-"" So Keith, please point out where precisely that treatment differs from Israel's treatment. It seems to me to be virtually indistinguishable, except that the Israeli Bedouins can hardly be smuggling drugs, goods and weapons into Gaza. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:00 PM ""Israel was not a state then, but there were many Zionist settlers who called the land Isreal."" They could have called it Lilliput or Never-Never Land, but that wouldn't make it so until it was recognised as a state. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:57 PM ""Israel provides its citizens with high quality public services in sanitation, health and education, and municipal services. These services can only be provided to those living in permanent housing, and the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services."" The Negev Bedouins seem to be living in village communities, or what exactly are the Israelis refusing to recognise? The Bedouins have been farming that land as livestock farmers, and it would cost the government no more to recognise their villages and bring them up to a liveable standard, than to build townships where farmers cannot operate, forcing them into menial jobs serving the "real" Israelis. Of course, the land vacated will be settled by "real" Israelis, who will be afforded the services and utilities which Israel "can't afford" to provide for mere Bedouin Arabs, and will continue the livestock farming stolen from those Arabs. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:48 PM ""With 16 dead Egyptians and no dead Israelis, they can't admit it. They lie. Egypt is probably in a better position to know than you Don. Egypt poured shit over them."" And boy, don't you get a kick out of gloating when somebody other than you throws shit at Palestinians? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM ""The attack was on Israel. They just wanted to capture and use Egyptian vehicles for the attack. They probably believed the Egyptians would not resist."" And that nugget of invented fantasy was sourced from.......? Or are you now claiming a qualification as a mind reader? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:44 AM As usual, the resident racist scum attacks people rather than discuss the facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Greg F. Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:34 AM Beardie's evidently off his meds again. Give it time - it'll clear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Mar 13 - 08:09 AM Don, Did you bother reading ANY of my posts before commenting? Israel has been there for several thousand years. YOU have claimed there is a Palestine- yet it did not exist between 1948 and now. West Bank was Jordan, the state that the Arab Palestinians were given from the Mandate Palestine territory. After 1967, Jordan agreed the border with Israel was the river.- The West Bank was PART OF ISRAEL. In order to get peace with the Arab nations, Israel has talked about giving up territory to refugees and FORMING a Palestinian state. They are still waiting for peace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Mar 13 - 06:05 AM For comparison, Al Jazeera on Egypts Bedouin. "the conflict stems from a lack of economic incentives in the region, which forces some Bedouins to turn to illegal activities such as drug and human trafficking and the smuggling of goods and weapons across the border with Gaza. "The problem also stems from the fact that there are services that Egyptians can enjoy, but Bedouins do not - and that comes in the form of proper healthcare, access to clean water and other socioeconomic rights they are not given" Heba Morayef, the Cairo officer for Human Right's Watch, says. "And apart from the tourism industry there are no other opportunities made available." Bedouins also complain that the government has marginalised them from modern Egyptian society. Today, many do not hold national ID cards and are more loyal to their tribal chiefs than the state. Ziad Moussa, a political analyst with the al-Ahram Centre for Political and Strategic Studies, says: "The government does not take into account that they are dealing with a culturally different people, there is no consideration for their ethics and values in their dealings." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM They wanted Israel's land 28 years before Israel existed. They had that land in 1920, or hadn't you noticed that there wasn't an Israel, Jewish or otherwise? Israel was not a state then, but there were many Zionist settlers who called the land Isreal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:38 AM You are asking for Israel's treatment of their Bedouin minority to be accepted as fair and reasonable, simply because others treat Bedouins worse. I think that Israel's treatment is fair and reasonable. The population is the fastest growing in the whole world. Persecuted populations, like Christians and Jews in Arab lands, dwindle to extinction. "The rate of growth of the Negev Bedouin is the highest in the world – the Bedouin population doubles its size every 15 years. By 2020, the Bedouin population of the Negev will be 300,000. Israel provides its citizens with high quality public services in sanitation, health and education, and municipal services. These services can only be provided to those living in permanent housing, and the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services. Israel is currently building eight new villages or towns for the Negev Bedouin. These townships are intended to meet all the present and future needs of this population. The government of Israel has allocated more than NIS1 billion for the benefit of this population. Aside from building new townships for the Bedouin in the Negev, the Israeli government plans to invest more than NIS 1 billion in a multi-phased program to improve the infrastructure of existing Bedouin towns and to develop their public facilities." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:29 AM 1. Why would Hamas or any other group in Gaza attack an Egyptian outpost, just when they are establishing a rapport with Egypt's new government? The idea has little or no credibility! The attack was on Israel. They just wanted to capture and use Egyptian vehicles for the attack. They probably believed the Egyptians would not resist. 2. Hamas is probably in a better position than you Bruce, to know whether they or any of other Gazans were involved. With 16 dead Egyptians and no dead Israelis, they can't admit it. They lie. Egypt is probably in a better position to know than you Don. Egypt poured shit over them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:10 AM ""Don, the Bedouin are a regional issue. While discussing the situation in Israel, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that their treatment in Israel is by far the best in the region. How can any reasonable, unprejudiced person object to that observation?"" Very easily, which, if you were a reasonable person, you would understand. You are asking for Israel's treatment of their Bedouin minority to be accepted as fair and reasonable, simply because others treat Bedouins worse. That is a mendacious and unacceptable suggestion. It is an outright LIE to make any such claim, regardless of how much worse the treatment may be elsewhere, and dishonest to adduce that worse treatment as evidence in an attempt to exonerate the lesser. You may honestly say that Israel are not as bad as some others, though nonetheless bad enough in their own human rights abuse. Saddam Hussein was no less a monster because Pol Pot was worse! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:57 AM ""-snip- The attack on an army outpost came as Egypt's new president, the Islamist Muhammad Mursi, was seen as making overtures to Gaza's Islamist Hamas rulers, who had strained relations with his overthrown predecessor Hosni Mubarak. -snip-"" "" -snip- Egyptian officials have charged that some of the 35 gunmen who stormed the army post had crossed from Gaza through the network of smuggling tunnels that run under the border. But Gaza's Hamas rulers have said no Palestinians are suspected of involvement in the attack. -snip-"" 1. Why would Hamas or any other group in Gaza attack an Egyptian outpost, just when they are establishing a rapport with Egypt's new government? The idea has little or no credibility! 2. Hamas is probably in a better position than you Bruce, to know whether they or any of other Gazans were involved. The above is more supportive of my take on the situation than yours. So, once again, WHO has most to gain from restrictions on the Gaza/Egypt border further isolating Gaza. It is certainly diverting attention from the creeping annexation of the West Bank, which the UN has condemned as illegal. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:34 AM ""If it applies to the Arabs, it applies to Israel."" In a ratio of ten dead arabs for each dead Israeli in open fights, and hundreds to one in Israel's vicious and indiscrimnate retaliatory actions. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:31 AM ""Yet it is the Arab peoples and nations hunger for the land belonging to Israel that has been the problem since the 1920's."" WOW! So prescience is real! They wanted Israel's land 28 years before Israel existed. They had that land in 1920, or hadn't you noticed that there wasn't an Israel, Jewish or otherwise? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:54 AM Don, the Bedouin are a regional issue. While discussing the situation in Israel, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that their treatment in Israel is by far the best in the region. How can any reasonable, unprejudiced person object to that observation? "The rate of growth of the Negev Bedouin is the highest in the world – the Bedouin population doubles its size every 15 years. By 2020, the Bedouin population of the Negev will be 300,000. Israel provides its citizens with high quality public services in sanitation, health and education, and municipal services. These services can only be provided to those living in permanent housing, and the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services. Israel is currently building eight new villages or towns for the Negev Bedouin. These townships are intended to meet all the present and future needs of this population. The government of Israel has allocated more than NIS1 billion for the benefit of this population. Aside from building new townships for the Bedouin in the Negev, the Israeli government plans to invest more than NIS 1 billion in a multi-phased program to improve the infrastructure of existing Bedouin towns and to develop their public facilities." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM Note the date- The present time was NOT the first time that Egypt was attacked FROM GAZA- I think the Egyptians have a better idea of who to blame than Don does. Or is he claiming that the Egyptians are just too stupid to realize what he does- that Israel is responsible for any bad in the entire world? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 02:25 PM Egypt reopens Gaza crossing | | A A AGENCE FRANCE PRESSE Sunday 26 August 2012 Last Update 26 August 2012 5:13 am CAIRO: Egypt decided on Saturday to reopen a border crossing with Gaza it had mostly kept closed since a militant attack killed 16 of its soldiers on August 5, the official MENA news agency reported. It said the Rafah border crossing, the Palestinian territory's only passage which bypasses Israel, would return to opening six days a week, like before the attack. Egypt allowed only a trickle of Palestinians to use the crossing to enter Gaza after the attack in Sinai that the military said took place under the cover of mortar fire from Gaza. The attack on an army outpost came as Egypt's new president, the Islamist Muhammad Mursi, was seen as making overtures to Gaza's Islamist Hamas rulers, who had strained relations with his overthrown predecessor Hosni Mubarak. It prompted an unprecedented military campaign in the Sinai peninsula, a haven for the Islamist militants believed to have carried out the attack, and a crackdown on smuggling tunnels between Egypt and Gaza. Security officials said on Saturday that military engineers have blocked 120 tunnels since the start of the operation. Egyptian officials have charged that some of the 35 gunmen who stormed the army post had crossed from Gaza through the network of smuggling tunnels that run under the border. But Gaza's Hamas rulers have said no Palestinians are suspected of involvement in the attack. http://www.arabnews.com/egypt-reopens-gaza-crossing |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 02:03 PM As Israel took in and settled the Jewish refugees from Arab lands, Jordan took in and settled the Palestinian Arabs. END of Palestinian claims to Israeli territory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 01:57 PM "The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan now included nearly one and a half million people, more than half a million of whom were refugees evicted from Jewish-occupied Palestine. ******************************************************************************************** All automatically became citizens of Jordan, a right that had first been offered in December 1949 to all Palestinians who wished to claim it. ******************************************************************************************** Although the Arab League opposed this plan, and no other Arab government followed Jordan's lead, the Hashemite Kingdom offered the possibility of normal life for many people who would have otherwise remained stateless refugees. " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 01:51 PM 'Emir Abdullah soon succeeded in loosening the British mandate over Transjordan with an Anglo-Transjordanian treaty. On May 15, 1923, Britain formally recognized the Emirate of Transjordan as a state under the leadership of Emir Abdullah. This angered the Zionists, as it effectively severed Transjordan from Palestine and so reduced the area of any future Jewish national home in the region. The treaty stipulated that Transjordan would be prepared for independence under the general supervision of the British high commissioner in Jerusalem, and recognized Emir Abdullah as head of state. In May 1925, the Aqaba and Ma'an districts of the Hijaz became part of Transjordan." http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_transjordan.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 01:43 PM Don, Re Jewish State: The British Mandate For Palestine San Remo Conference, April 24, 1920 Since this CREATED "Palestine", perhaps you need to read it... ARTICLE 2. The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion. ARTICLE 3. The Mandatory shall, so far as circumstances permit, encourage local autonomy. ARTICLE 4. An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and cooperating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country. The Zionist Organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall he recognized as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the cooperation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home. ARTICLE 5. The Mandatory shall be responsible for seeing that no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of, the Government of any foreign Power. ARTICLE 6. The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes. ARTICLE 7. The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:47 AM Don and Jim, ANY time you mention any Israeli killings of any Arabs, I will point out that "Well perhaps you, in your infinite wisdom, will tell us just what you think we might do about those already killed, to bring them back to life." If it applies to the Arabs, it applies to Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:44 AM " by curbing Israel's hunger for land belonging to its neighbours." Yet it is the Arab peoples and nations hunger for the land belonging to Israel that has been the problem since the 1920's. AND YOU KEEP SILENT ABOUT THAT. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM ""BTW, the FACT that the Arab Palestinian state of Jordan has killed more Palestinians than the Israelis over the last 50 years, and goes unmentioned here is an indication that some here would seem to be fixated on attacking Israel, and have no interest in the Palestinians as people, just pawns to attack Israel with."" Well perhaps you, in your infinite wisdom, will tell us just what you think we might do about those already killed, to bring them back to life. Meanwhile we, with your kind permission, will continue to concern ourselves with those who might yet be saved by curbing Israel's hunger for land belonging to its neighbours. OK? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:30 AM ""However, Palestinians regard a "Jewish state" as a trap, a new demand that did not come up during years of negotiations in the 1990s or in peace treaties reached with Egypt and Jordan. The Palestine Liberation Organization recognized the State of Israel as part of the Oslo Accords in 1993. Palestinians regard acceptance of the demand as giving up the right of return."" And SO DO I!! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: pdq Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:29 AM bb, I am making a basic point. The Arabs living within the boundries of the traditional Jewish homeland are just that: Arabs who moved into somebody else's territory. The idea that they deserve a special name and have the right to self-determination started in about 1967, probably by Yaser Arafat and his terrorist brain trust. We need to stop using the name "palestinian" completely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:22 AM ""How can you discuss persecution of minorities in a state and not make a comparison if neighbouring states are considerably worse?"" No Keith!....It is YOU who needs (desperately) a way to jusify the unjustifiable!! Start a thread about Egypt and I'll be happy to discuss their shortcomings, but I will not give you the satifaction of using that as an exoneration of Israel's shortcomings. Human rights abuse is an absolute, not a graded competition. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 09:57 AM clarification: In the early 1920's, when Mandate Palestine was having problems between the Arabs and Jews, the Mandate Authority ( Great Britain) DIVIDED the Mandate Palestine territory into "THE JEWISH HOMELAND OF Palestine" and Transjordan, giving the 77% of the land area ( proportionate to the Arab population ) of THE MANDATE to the Arabs, and prohibiting Jewish settlement or land ownership IN THE ARAB PORTION. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 08:36 AM BTW, the FACT that the Arab Palestinian state of Jordan has killed more Palestinians than the Israelis over the last 50 years, and goes unmentioned here is an indication that some here would seem to be fixated on attacking Israel, and have no interest in the Palestinians as people, just pawns to attack Israel with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Mar 13 - 08:31 AM PDQ, In actual fact, there IS a Palestinian state. In the early 1920's, when Mandate Palestine was having problems between the Arabs and Jews, the Mandate Authority ( Great Britain) DIVIDED the Mandate Palestine territory into "Palestine" and Transjordan, giving the 77% of the land area ( proportionate to the Arab population ) of Transjordan to the Arabs, and prohibiting Jewish settlement or land ownership there. It was the JEWISH Homeland that was later divided by the UN, and the Arabs refused to acknowledge. Since the Arabs lost the war, JORDAN annexed the West Bank in 1948, and DID NOT establish an Arab state- in fact, they later (in the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan) stated it was Israeli territory. It seems ok to claim that someone who has been someplace for 600 years has rights to the land, but those who have lived there for 2000 years are invaders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: pdq Date: 03 Mar 13 - 05:19 PM As soon as somebody uses the term "palestinian" he has stepped into a trap. Many garden variety Arabs have moved into Caanan=Palestine=Holly Land, the historical homeland of the Jewish people. Jews owned it 5000 years earlier than the Arabs. The idea that there are a separate people and deserve a separate state began after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War. Public Relations victories are less bloody than military ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: GUEST,999 Date: 03 Mar 13 - 04:40 PM Palestinians and Israelis have difficulties speaking with each other, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Mar 13 - 04:21 PM ONCE AND FOR ALL, NOT A JEWISH STATE!!! THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL!! The term "Jewish state" has been in common usage in the media since the establishment of Israel, and the term was used interchangeably with Israel. The first US official to use the term was then United States Secretary of State Colin L. Powell in a 2001 speech on the Middle East, in which he briefly called on Palestinians to recognize Israel as a "Jewish state" after an Israeli diplomat convinced an aide to slip the phrase into his speech. George W. Bush used the term in his speeches and in a controversial exchange of letters with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2004.[2] Obama has also adopted the phrase, most recently in a speech in September 2010 to the U.N. General Assembly.[3] The Israeli government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has sought Palestinian recognition of Israel as a "Jewish state". However, Palestinians regard a "Jewish state" as a trap, a new demand that did not come up during years of negotiations in the 1990s or in peace treaties reached with Egypt and Jordan. The Palestine Liberation Organization recognized the State of Israel as part of the Oslo Accords in 1993. Palestinians regard acceptance of the demand as giving up the right of return.[3] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Mar 13 - 04:00 PM Well, no Don. How can you discuss persecution of minorities in a state and not make a comparison if neighbouring states are considerably worse? You need a reason to avoid mentioning a worse situation next door. What is it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 03 Mar 13 - 02:49 PM ""But when we discuss an issue like the treatment of Bedouin, why do you ignore the much worse persecution in some Arab states, and only criticise a Jewish state?"" 1). BECAUSE THOSE OTHER STATES' TREATMENT OF BEDOUINS, OR OTHER MINORITIES, ARE NOT UNDER DISCUSSION IN THIS THREAD, EXCEPT BY YOU AS A JUSTIFICATION OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT'S TREATMENT OF ITS BEDOUIN MINORITY! 2). BECAUSE THE SIMILAR ACTIONS OF OTHERS, HOWEVER BAD, CANNOT JUSTIFY THOSE OF ISRAEL'S GOVERNMENT! 3). ONCE AND FOR ALL, NOT A JEWISH STATE!!! THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL!! A direct answer to your question, which has already been given more than often enough for the dimmest twit in history to understand it. DO YOU GET IT NOW?? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Mar 13 - 12:51 PM But when we discuss an issue like the treatment of Bedouin, why do you ignore the much worse persecution in some Arab states, and only criticise a Jewish state? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 02 Mar 13 - 08:05 AM And of course, bringing the word Jew into the discussion, which on my side has been all about the Israeli government and the IDF, is a ploy they continuously use in the hope of being able to accuse me of antisemitism. So far without success. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 02 Mar 13 - 08:00 AM ""Not so simples, Don. First, I have never used the term 'self hating Jews' in my life."" The problem is that you jumped into a conversation with that other Bruce (he of the beard), who has a problem with Israelis who deplore and expose some of the actions of their government and military. ""Self hating Jews"" seems to be the current pro Israel buzz word to denigrate them and impugn their veracity and motives. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Mar 13 - 03:02 PM Stilly River Sage What BeardedBruce wants is for you to fall all over yourselves arguing with him and his strident anti-Palestine position. That's why he started the thread. OK, but why single out BB? You made no such criticism of Stringsinger when he started his thread about Israel. At least there were no lies in BB's OP. Strinsinger's OP was ALL made up lies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: Greg F. Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:42 AM That's right, Mr. Beard, them miserable mudelves are persecuting you. Probably because you're Jewish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza From: GUEST,999 Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:19 AM '""Explain why you aren't, Don."" OK Bruce! Because you can brush off criticism from those on the other side of the argument as being biased, but when your own side starts to criticise, you should examine your actions very carefully and not simply dismiss them as "self hating Jews", which is intrinsically a bigotted comment. SIMPLES! Don T.' Not so simples, Don. First, I have never used the term 'self hating Jews' in my life. |
