BS: who will be next pope

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM

I get a right-wing publication online so that I can see what is being said over there. Whenever I can stomach it- my tolerance seems short-lived.

Be that as it may, this morning there was a headline on just WHY the pope is resigning along with dark hints on intrigue in the Vatican.

But like practically every story there, it 's a bait and switch thing- one has to become a member or something to get the WHOLE story. I didn't - and don't - go there; there is no way I'm going to add to their coffers.

Incidentally, the story also offered information on the likely front-runner. That too was buried in the next link.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: olddude
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 02:32 PM

I think it will be our Sins ... I have seen her dressed up like a NUN in several pictures and the word on the street is she has little nuns all over the house so why not be the next Pope

how about Sins

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 02:15 PM

My wife was reporting on an online forum she's been following recently, and she said that while it was a bit bad tempered and boring at times, it was alright really, because there were a few people there a bit like katlaughing.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 10:17 PM

Katlaughing would make a VERY interesting Pope. I'd vote for her. If anybody could get rid of the taboos and hangups in one big helluva hurry, it would be her.

I can hear her first sermon: "People, stop all this intolerance shit and love one another. Amen."

....except that I can't really picture katlaughing saying "shit." She's too nice.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Bert
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 10:16 PM

OK, let's make this real. Post this thread on every other wall that you use. Think of how much better the world would be if Joe was Pope.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Bert
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 10:09 PM

Well I was going to say Spaw 'cos he is kind and generous and loving and has that degree of irreverence that all good people should have.

BUT, having read Joe's words above I think that I will change my mind and vote for Joe.

Again, that is only because they count the balls of the Pope, otherwise my vote would go to my darling katlaughing.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 09:40 PM

It would be highly unlikely to find a Roman Catholic Cardinal who would support Uganda's death penalty for homosexual acts. I'd almost say that to suggest such a thing is ludicrous. As McGrath says above, the death penalty itself is contrary to Catholic teaching. And while Catholic teaching does not approve of homosexual acts, there are official Catholic documents that denounce discrimination or intolerance against homosexuals - and Cardinals almost always uphold such documents. I'm sure, however, you could find a Reuters reporter who could twist a cardinal's words to make it sound that the cardinal approves of the Ugandan law. Reuters seems to make a hobby of that.

Seems like Huffington Post does the same, saying in a photo caption, "Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana has defended anti-gay legislation, like Uganda's 'Kill the Gays' bill." The text of the article says only that Turkson said it is understandable "why some African governments have created legislation against homosexuality." That's a far cry from giving approval to the death penalty for homosexual acts in Uganda.

It is true that many African cultures have strong taboos against homosexuals. A couple of years ago, I had a discussion of homosexual marriage with a friend of mine, who is a fairly young Catholic priest from Rwanda. He was quite surprised that I could say that I thought that homosexual marriage should be legal here in California - it was like he was stunned at what I said, but he accepted it [without agreeing] because he respected me (he respects everybody). He could not imagine that homosexual marriage could be a good thing, and he said that there are deep cultural prohibitions against homosexuality in most parts of Africa. I got the impression that this is not a Christian thing, that it goes back long before the advent of Christianity in Sub-Saharan Africa. My friend is humble and loving, with a wonderful laugh and a great sense of humor, and a deep but simple spirituality. I can't imagine him hating or even disliking anyone. But for some reason, homosexuality is abhorrent to him - although he has learned to get along with homosexuals here in California. I've known him for over five years, since just after his arrival in the U.S. It has been interesting to watch him struggle to accept the extravagances of American culture. And I admit that I have forced him to struggle by challenging him with ideas that make him uncomfortable. I tend to do that to young priests. I think somebody has to force them to grow up.

So, is my friend therefore disqualified from leadership in the Catholic Church?

Large segments of the population in Europe and North America are very tolerant of homosexuality, but I gather that's not the case in many parts of the Third World.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 08:13 PM

Cardinal Onaiyekan was only born in 1944. It's the other Nigerian Cardinal Arinze who was born in 1932, and at 80 would not be eligible to take part in the Conclave.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 07:03 PM

"I can not imagine electing another 80 year old..."

Think of the money just in swag. New tshirts and mugs and whatever. And when he bites his last wafer... MORE money! It's modern marketing.

I told Father Sloan he should suggest another marketing tip "up along"... the Vatican could sell Pope swag... the robes, the mitres, the caps... whatever... AND, if ya get one autographed AND on top of that, if any of these were actually worn during a mass... $$$!!! I tell ya, the Vatican marketing department needs a kick in the rosary!

Hail Mary, full of grace... HOW many?

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 06:29 PM

http://www.news.va/en/news/card-designate-onaiyekan-simplicity-of-heart-humil

Perhaps this is a better choice..he was nominated for a nobel prize and seems OK from a cursory glance. New cardinal but bishop for 40 years. I can not imagine electing another 80 year old as Arinze is..but it is interesting that Turkson has said that he is not eligible for pope, but he actually is and you would think a cardinal would know that...especially one of the top contenders, who seems, along with an American pope (not so much now, but earlier) to be running.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:30 PM

If you find somewhere he has indicated he is in favour of legislating to kill gay people...

Spun interpretations of what he has said and what he has not said are not the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:04 PM

We are talking about legislation that would possibily kill gays, and give others who fail to report them a 7 year prison sentence. We have one of the top two or three contenders for popeship failing to condemn this, and actually appearing to support it. Unless this is totally clarified, how could he possibibly be pope? Gays are already not safe in some countries, including some parts of the US.

I am not saying he has to marry them, approve of them, stop making moral judgements about their lifestyle. I assume that goes with the territory. But I am saying, and I would think anyone with a conscious would say, we can not have a pope who condones them being killed..not just by the government...once it was a law in one country and the pope seemed to endorse it, it would spread to other countries, and to vigilante groups as well. When one is not free, no one is free. This is beyond serious. It is catastrophic if it is true, and at the very least we need to find out what the truth is...which is not a strong point of this particular church at this particular time. Jason Berry, Maureen Dowd...please to find out.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:00 PM

""Good leaders make people feel that they're at the very heart of things, not at the periphery....Failing organizations are usually over-managed and under-led"".
- Warren G. Bennis

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:24 PM

Who will be the next Easter Bunny's representative on Earth?

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 02:43 AM

I don't imagine we'll know any more about the inner workings of this papal election, than we have about previous ones. All the proceedings take place in secret. The cardinals will gather in Rome on March 1, the day after Benedict's resignation is effective. They'll spend every morning together, discussion about the Catholic Church and where it's going, and they will have lunch and dinner together every day - scoping each other out to evaluate possible candidates. This is supposed to go on for fifteen days, and then the voting begins. Since Benedict's resignation was announced well in advance, the 15-day initial period may be shortened.

I have to say that I don't put a whole lot of stock in people who say that so-and-so shouldn't be Pope because he hasn't said the right words on such-and-such an issue. No candidate will be perfect in the eyes of all. If the candidate is a Catholic bishop (and especially if he's an African bishop), he's not likely to be totally open to all LBGT issues. We also can't expect to find a candidate who is unscarred by the child molestation scandal - there were at least a few instances of child molestation in every diocese in the world, and the scandal was mishandled worldwide. I'm afraid it's very unlikely that the next Pope will be a liberal, or even as moderate as Benedict - there has been a turn to the right in the Catholic Church worldwide, not that I like that fact. The best we can hope for is a generous, tolerant person who is willing to listen.

Then again, nobody expected John XXIII.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 10:58 PM

Well, if clarification by someone regarding what they did not say is required without proof that they said what they did not say then I am gone... bless all and gnightgnu.

And... no write-in ballots for me, eh? If elected, I will not serve. Well, after I see what's in the wine cellar. I'll bet there is some really tasty grape juice kickin around in the basement.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 07:01 PM

The fixed consensus of the Catholic Church is that the death penalty is not acceptable in any circumstance, founded on the principle that human lfe is sacred and to be protected. That applies just as much in Uganda as it does elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: mg
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:23 PM

He said more than that, and in the context of a United Nations meeting. But it is important for him and the pope as one of his last acts to tell us exactly what is meant by him. This is not saying we are not going to marry you...it is at the very least failing to condemn open season on LB GT people..and those who fail to turn them in. And if, God forbid, he does become pope, think of the permission it gives people to abuse and commit violence on others..well, God said it was OK through the pope.

I am appalled at the apologists for this, until we get total assurance that it was somehow a misunderstanding. Gays themselves do not seem to be taking it as a cultural fluff.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-becker/catholic-bishops-suddenly-silent-as-lgbt-ugandans-face-possible-death_b_2131576.html

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:17 PM

turkson , his odds have shortened from 5 to 0ne to 9 to4, cardinal turkson will be the next pope

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM

McGrath of Harlow... indeed. My first thought was ""Kill" don't sound right. Wires must be crossed."

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 12:58 PM

his linkage with the "kill the gays" legislation in Uganda.

If you check the stuff beneath the headlines it doesn't remotely add up to what you suggest there. Basically he seems to have said that it's important to understand the cultural background to stuff like that. That's not the same as defending it - in fact if you don't understand something you've tied one hand behind your back in trying to change it.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 10:34 AM

"membership and obedience in the Catholic Church are voluntary"

I suspect so, as membership in life itself is voluntary, and seems from the outside relatively simple to leave. (It brings to mind puzzling situations where battered women, while often can voluntarily leave, but choose to stay).

But, as Steve Shaw and other posters in various threads explains, it is not always that simple, given early conditioning and family and social forces in many world areas. (and, we do not all face and react to such pressures and challenging decisions in the same way).

Regardless of who, in the rank and file, leaves or remains aligned to the RC church, (or, who follows it at what level) the impact of the church world-wide likely remains much the same. Given that, I would not expect external pressures for change to end soon. And, IMO, that is a good thing, as most aspects of secular world affairs are open to change as communication and knowledge increases - and, I mostly see that as a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 05:33 AM

Raving catholics are just that - raving!!

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: mg
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 05:22 AM

I take it seriously...it has huge consequences for the world, especially with overpopulation etc. And it is cruel to expect people to have to figure out the birth control thing for themselves after being told they'll go to hell for it. And this guy in Ghana is giving me the creeps with his linkage with the "kill the gays" legislation in Uganda. This needs to be totally investigated and unless there is some logical explanation, he needs to be told in no uncertain terms he will never be pope and he can turn in his fancy cardinal hat furthermore. This is the most appalling thing to come out of a cardinal's mouth in my lifetime...and people are calling it normal homophobia..unfortunately homophobia is rampant, but it generally means we are going to denounce you and not let you marry, but it does not generally mean we support legislation that would kill you..or arrest you if you support gay rights. I hope that we do not have another wicked pope..just an ordinary one would be fine.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 04:07 AM

I would imagine that the Patriarch of Constantinople will never, ever be the "Patriarch of Istanbul." I don't think that change would be readily accepted by the Greeks. It's my understanding that there are only about 500 Greek Orthodox in Istanbul, along with the Patriarch. It's kind of a patriarchate-in-exile since the Greeks were expelled from Turkey in the 1920s. It's an interesting story - the Greeks, who had lived in Asia Minor since the time of Homer, thought they could get the upper hand on the Turks. They ended up losing everything, and Greece could not absorb all the Greeks who were exiled from Turkey. Many emigrated to the U.S., particularly to Detroit.

It's a bit "iffy" to say that the Pope himself is infallible, because that creates all sorts of misunderstandings. It's the doctrines he promulgates under certain very specific circumstances, that can be deemed infallible. Since the doctrine of infallibility was declared by the First Vatican Council in the 1870s, there has been only one clear-cut infallible doctrine, the assumption of Mary into heaven. And that's one of those doctrines that makes no nevermind to me. Who cares? Still, the Doctrine of Infallibility is an embarrassment to me. We Catholics would be better off without it.

Note that the First Vatican Council was held at the same time the Pope was losing ownership of the Papal States, so that he was no longer a political leader of any consequence. Was that the reason for the paranoid spirit of Vatican I? That council was called to oppose a long list of things that worried Pius IX, which he called the heresy "modernism." One particularly despicable aspect of modernism was "Americanism."

Papal politics is a fascinating spectator sport. It's important not to take it too seriously. After all, membership and obedience in the Catholic Church are voluntary. I wish Catholics would remember that. It would make Catholicism a lot more fun for them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 06:34 PM

An aside about Papal infallibility as an awkward doctrine

(In about 1967, I wrote a long paper on the 1st Vatican Council and the disputes over how & whether to declare the doctrine. I got an A- on the paper, but research in an average college library didn't gain half as much material as in the above link. Even if you object to the viewpoint expressed in the article, it is well worth reading to appreciate the logical conundrums the church faced in dealing with 'practical' theology.)

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:05 PM

Ed.... "Which may be a main reason behind selecting the ones that are really old?   :)"

Oh dear! That is baaaaaad! Hahahahahaahehehehehehe!!! Oh, shit!... I am going to hell. Forgive Father, for I have laughed. Hey... yer laffin too, ain'tchya?

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Mike in Brunswick
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 02:58 PM

"Same place. But the patriarchs go back to a long long time before the modern version of the name came to be used."

I was referring to the popular song of the 1950s. The one that ends with "Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Turks."

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 02:31 PM

""When someone in a position of power, and sugnificant trust, reaches an advanced age -for example 80+, the concern should not be about the decisions they make, but who is making the decisions for them.""
Quote Ed.T

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 02:19 PM

""Hey, somebody has to make the final decisions and that is what the Boss gets paid to do. In this case, the Boss can only be fired by one guy and that guy is every Catholic in unison. As for Supreme Authority, it's kinda the same but localized and there are property issues.""

gnu, at least with Prime Ministers, there is some potential way to get rid of them (the bad ones) in a reasonable time frame. Unfortunately, death seems to be the most common route to rid the RC of bad popes. Which may be a main reason behind selecting the ones that are really old?   :)

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 02:06 PM

""Ed... I think someone else may have said that. >;-)""

If it is worth saying once, it is worth saying again. Or, on Mudcat, again, and again and again.....
;)

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 02:04 PM

""Hey, somebody has to make the final decisions and that is what the Boss gets paid to do. In this case, the Boss can only be fired by one guy and that guy is every Catholic in unison. As for Supreme Authority, it's kinda the same but localized and there are property issues.""

gnu, I remind you of your frequent complaint of your current Prime Minister.LOL

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 01:58 PM

Ed... I think someone else may have said that. >;-)

Ed... "Roman Catholics recognize the Pope as infallible in matters of doctrine and the Pope has supreme authority over all churches and can, for example, contradict or usurp the power of a lower-ranking church leader..."

Re "infallible". Hey, somebody has to make the final decisions and that is what the Boss gets paid to do. In this case, the Boss can only be fired by one guy and that guy is every Catholic in unison. As for Supreme Authority, it's kinda the same but localized and there are property issues.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 12:39 PM

Some people have asked why non-RCs are interested in the pope?

I suspect for some it's the same reason as they are interested in celebrity folks who are in the spot light, like queens, kings and lesser titled, actors, entertainers, singers, artists, and entertaining leaders and business folks. Other well known religious folks, like the Dalai Lama likely also falls into this group.

The pope also commands over a church with a significant following which impacts some world affairs.

Since the RC church is historically related to other religions,there is some common ground. I suspect that stimulates some interest (just like USA folks have a historic link and interest in what is going on in England which is frequently more of a love hate relationship).

Some folks are possibly looking for a message or a sign of things to come from a religious leader, even though they are not of that faith.

Some folks dislike the RC church and the pope. To them, the pope is a symbol of something bad from the past (recent and far away), not something good. This stimulates interest to fuel negativity, not positive thoughts.

Just some thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 11:39 AM

Perhaps it will be someone who will give a little rope, hopefully use soap, who will not grope and will not take dope, and as far as a lady pope is concerned - the answer is nope!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 09:57 AM

An interesting perspective on popes and the future pope.


Pope Richard 1

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM

""CNN showed lightning suddenly striking the dome of St. Peter's just a few hours after the Pope's announcement""

If you believe in messages "from above" (which I am sure all do not), you should also be open to a variety of messages which could be intended.;)

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 08:42 AM

All I know is that CNN showed lightning suddenly striking the dome of St. Peter's just a few hours after the Pope's announcement.

But he hasn't changed his mind about resigning.

Darn!

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 08:39 AM

"I thought it was Istanbul, not Constantinople."

Same place. But the patriarchs go back to a long long time before the modern version of the name came to be used.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 08:22 AM

Comparing the Pope to a Prime minister is interesting. In the RC example it's is like having one Prime Minister for all democracies in the world (considering there are other religions and christian denominations). How much sense does that make? Not much IMO.

""Roman Catholics recognize the Pope as infallible in matters of doctrine and the Pope has supreme authority over all churches and can, for example, contradict or usurp the power of a lower-ranking church leader, such as a priest, bishop or cardinal. The Eastern Orthodox Church also has various bishops, with one being the highest-ranking bishop. Its highest-ranking bishop, or archbishop, is not considered to be infallible, nor does he have supreme authority over all of its congregations.""

In both churches important decisions are made on matters affecting the whole Church in an inclusive manner. In the RC church these decisions have been historically negated by the pope, and still can be overturned. This cannot happen in the Orthodox church under any circumstance. So, it seems to me that democracy is "more alive" in the Orthodox church. If RC s get a "head strong" pope, major actions could occur. A dfference-yes a huge one.

As to the role of women in bith churches,they both have it wrong in discriminating against the full involvement of women.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 07:14 AM

Joe... "it's nice to have some sort of Prime Minister"

You can have Stephen Harper. He THINKS he's the Pope.

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:45 AM

If we were to destroy every endeavor because of imperfections, what would be left?

Or, more particularly, round here - what would there be left to be to the left of! ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:31 AM

Make the next mental leap? Actually, Musket, no.

It seems that far too many people who don't belong to the Catholic Church and have no idea what it's all about, want to abolish it.
One wonders why.

If people don't want to be Catholic, that's fine. If they want to destroy the Catholic Church, that's another matter. Every single human endeavor is seriously flawed. If we were to destroy every endeavor because of imperfections, what would be left?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 02:20 AM

All this talk of not needing a Pope any more.

Anyone willing to make the next mental leap?

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Mike in Brunswick
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 12:15 AM

I thought it was Istanbul, not Constantinople. In any case, here's E. J. Dionne on the subject.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 07:19 PM

Well, the Eastern Orthodox Churches have patriarchs, and the lead patriarch is the Patriarch of Constantinople, head of the Greek Orthodox Church (although he's in Turkey). The Bishop of Rome is also the Patriarch of Rome, and was "first among equals" among the patriarchs until the split in 1054.

Even though Catholic parishes had a large degree of local autonomy, it's nice to have some sort of Prime Minister for the worldwide organization. The Second Vatican Council spelled out the principles of subsidiarity (decisions made at the lowest appropriate level) and collegiality (decisions made by consensus of equal colleagues). Most modern communities of nuns adhere to these principles very well, and it works very well for them. The "boys" aren't as willing to give up turf and adhere to these principles.

The Orthodox churches seem to be quite collegial in their style of management; but from what I've seen, they appear to be very much a "men's club," perhaps even more so than the Romans.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:23 PM

The related Eastern Orthodox Church, officially called the Orthodox Catholic Church get's along quite fine without a pope - as the Anglican's do.

Why not cut costs and try doing without one for a few years, and see if one is really needed. After all, J Offer seems to often indicate their role is not that locally significant any more anyway (I also note Sinead O'Connor also seems to indicate a pope is not needed anymore).

BTW, an interesting interview of Sinead from 2010:

Sinead O'Connor

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:42 AM

But he didn't become the Pontiff, now did he? I never read of a Pope Pope...

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 07:15 AM

In the 1960s , I was on an aircraft carrier . In 1967 we got a new Captain . His name was Pope . He assumed command of the ship on Ascension Day !! ( Really !).

Subject: RE: BS: who will be next pope
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 03:58 AM

that leaves us with turkson or erdo