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Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)

Related threads:
Lyr Add: Donal Og - various translations (28)
(origins) Origins/ADD: Dhyana and Donalogue (Sheila Chandra) (11)
Lyr Req: Donal Og (33)
Donal Og: Caitlin Maud's version (7)
Donal Og Radio study (8)
Lyr Req: Donal Ogh (2) (closed)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
Donal Og


Thompson 11 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM
Thompson 11 Jan 18 - 10:57 AM
Gabriel 20 Dec 17 - 11:39 AM
Thompson 20 Dec 17 - 04:23 AM
Richard Mellish 19 Dec 17 - 05:26 AM
The Sandman 19 Dec 17 - 05:20 AM
Thompson 19 Dec 17 - 02:57 AM
Thompson 19 Dec 17 - 01:39 AM
Allan Conn 17 Dec 17 - 04:46 PM
Allan Conn 17 Dec 17 - 04:43 PM
Marje 17 Dec 17 - 04:41 PM
Thompson 17 Dec 17 - 04:03 PM
The Sandman 17 Dec 17 - 04:09 AM
Marje 16 Dec 17 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Philippa 16 Dec 17 - 05:20 PM
The Sandman 15 Dec 17 - 03:31 PM
Thompson 15 Dec 17 - 07:10 AM
GUEST 14 Dec 17 - 09:49 PM
GUEST 27 May 16 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Julia L 26 May 16 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,Julia L 26 May 16 - 11:00 PM
keberoxu 26 May 16 - 06:13 PM
GUEST 26 May 16 - 06:05 PM
Noreen 26 May 16 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,Julia L 25 May 16 - 09:56 PM
keberoxu 25 May 16 - 07:39 PM
Noreen 25 May 16 - 05:55 PM
keberoxu 25 May 16 - 03:51 PM
Joe Offer 15 Aug 14 - 05:24 AM
GUEST, topsie 15 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM
Joe Offer 15 Aug 14 - 03:20 AM
GUEST 14 Aug 14 - 06:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Ellie 14 Aug 14 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Ella 06 Oct 07 - 01:43 AM
GUEST,Philippa 27 Jul 06 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Polly 26 Jul 06 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Philippa 25 Mar 06 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,rich merne 24 Mar 06 - 03:52 PM
Jim Dixon 13 Mar 06 - 07:45 AM
GUEST,James Dixon 10 Mar 06 - 06:25 PM
GUEST 27 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM
GUEST 30 Mar 04 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,Philippa 25 Mar 04 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Philippa 10 Feb 04 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Philippa 06 Feb 04 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Philippa 06 Feb 04 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Philippa 30 Jan 04 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Philippa 30 Oct 01 - 07:12 AM
Malcolm Douglas 24 May 00 - 12:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM

From the context, the time sounds like somewhere between the 16th and 18th centuries; Dónal is clearly living as a woodkerne, on his keeping in the forests - "it is you are the lonely bird through the woods"; he is also clearly a man of some wealth and power, whether this still exists for him or not, since he's able to promise the speaker "twelve towns with a market in all of them, and a fine white court by the side of the sea… and a suit of the dearest silk in Ireland" as well as the less realistic offers of things that appear in the traditional mystery tales: a ship of gold under a silver mast, gloves of the skin of a fish, shoes of the skin of a bird.
The woman who's speaking (or man, of course) is not rich: "it is I would be better to you than a high, proud, spendthrift lady". Not only would s/he milk the cow, but also - again suggesting that he's living as a woodkerne - "I would bring help to you; and if you were hard pressed, I would strike a blow for you".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 10:57 AM

Augusta Gregory's translation is clearer:

O Donal Oge, if you go across the sea,
Bring myself with you, and do not forget it;
And you will have a sweetheart for fair days and market days,
And the daughter of the King of Greece beside you at night.

So the speaker is promising that she herself will be as good as the daughter of the King of Greece to Donal, an extravagant promise, but sure you never know.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Gabriel
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 11:39 AM

I was always told that sleeping with the "Greek King's daughter' was a promise of significant and uninhibited sexual fulfilment. Though the precise words used to describe it to me were more explicit.

By the way, the requested Limerick by James Joyce about Lady Gregory goes:
There was an old lady named Gregory
Who cried, "Come, all ye poets in beggary."
She found her imprudence
when hundreds of students
Cried, "We're in that noble category."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 04:23 AM

Ask Irish mediaevalists…


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 05:26 AM

> I don't suppose there was a particular Greek princess being referred to; the singer just means that Donal can sleep with the most high-born and exotic woman he can get his hands on, and she won't mind. <

That line has always puzzled me, so thank you, Marje, for a possible explanation, although it still seems an odd way for the girl to put it.

> The Greek king's daughter may very well have a subsidiary meaning in 17th- or 18th-century Irish; many confusing-in-English terms do. <

So there may be a better explanation. Any chance of anyone finding out that that may have been?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 05:20 AM

yes well donald duck was not scottish neither was donald crowhurst,


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 02:57 AM

For instance, songs in honour of Daniel O'Connell are to Dónal Ó Chonaill.

References to the Book of Daniel in old Bibles and dictionaries in Irish are inevitably translated as Dónal (or its earlier spelling, Domhnall).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 01:39 AM

The names may not be linguistically connected, but Dónal in Irish and Daniel in English (or Hebrew or Aramaic or whatever) are normally versions of each other in Ireland.

I know a couple of people called Donald in Ireland, but their names are consciously Scottish.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:46 PM

Just to show Marje is correct

http://www.clandonald.org/


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:43 PM

In Scotland you would expect a Donal to be Donald. Donal is basically the English phonetic spelling of the Scottish Gaelic spelling usually Domhnall.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Marje
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:41 PM

A brief internet search shows that the name Donal (sorry, can't add the accent on this tablet) is an old Irish name (also spelled Domhnall). The Scots either use a similar Gaelic form or the Anglicised form which adds a -d, possibly by analogy with names like Ronald.

Daniel is an ancient Hebrew, Old-Testament name. It sounds a bit like Donal - in fact quite a lot like it in an Irish accent - but the resemblance is superficial. It has a different source and etymology. There's nothing to stop Irish Donals from styling themselves as Daniels, but the names are not linguistically connected.

Marje


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:03 PM

Donald is surely a separate Scottish name? Any Dónals I know use Daniel in English if they're using a different name for English; this is the norm in Ireland.

To complicate things, O'Donnell, in Irish, would be Ó Dhomhnaill, or son of Dónal.

The Greek king's daughter may very well have a subsidiary meaning in 17th- or 18th-century Irish; many confusing-in-English terms do.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:09 AM

exactly, marje.this thread is in danger of being similiar to 'one who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Marje
Date: 16 Dec 17 - 06:23 PM

Donald is the English version of Donal. Daniel is an ancient Hebrew name with completely different etymology.

I don't suppose there was a particular Greek princess being referred to; the singer just means that Donal can sleep with the most high-born and exotic woman he can get his hands on, and she won't mind.

Marje


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 16 Dec 17 - 05:20 PM

I think the Greek king's daughter was deliberate, but fanciful, doesn't infer that the composer knew of any Greek king's daughters in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 03:31 PM

Donal is Donal


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 07:10 AM

Is Donald really equivalent to Dónal? Surely Daniel would be the usual Englishing if you're going to English it?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 09:49 PM

What are you even talking about Greek mythology is FULL of Greek king's daughters and obviously it is that to which it refers. How is this lost on you?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:42 PM

Till 1453 there was no Greek KIng only the Byzantine Emperor....
This is considerably later than the origins of the song.
Yes trade routes to the Med. exhisted at the 8th cantury and people did travel but the daughter of a Greek king is an unlikely visitor to the Emerald isle.The word geeek could have been mondegreened in Gaelic as easily as in English and mis translated in and out of both languages.
Just for good measure there was a Great King in Scotland as well as Ireland at the time of the ballads appearance.
OK I'll duck now.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 26 May 16 - 11:32 PM

Popular Tales of the West Highlands, Vol. III by J. F. Campbell [1890]
from THE YELLOW MUILEARTEACH
from the recitation of Angus MacDonald, Staoine-breac, South Uist, September 1860, and again from that of Allan MacPhie, tailor. MacDonald gives the same authority for it as for the "Great Fool," and MacPhie says he learnt it from one Donald MacIntyre, who has gone to America, and if living is now about 80 years of age. In Barra, I heard it from Alexander MacDonald, Burgh; and from Donald MacPhie, smith, Brubhaig, who learnt it from an uncle of his, Hector MacLaine, also a smith. Some versions have lines which are wanting in others, and in some lines there are a few slight variations. I have inserted those lines and words which I thought best when differences occurred.


30
"Gather to me my worthy race,
King of the Spaniards and his force,
The king of Greece and of Gallia clean,
King of Hispania and of the Inds."

31
Gather of the whole world the clan,
The children of a king and of a single man,
Goblin or champion shall not get clear
From the beautiful Fhinn of the yellow hair.



Seven score ships, and one thousand
Gathered the king, what a heavy band
For the taking of all Eirinn,
Could it be brought to Fionn, prince of the Finne.

---------

also this in the notes of "Popular Tales of the West Highlands" by J.F.Campbell 1860

Tighearn, a lord, or proprietor of land ; from ti fhearann,
person of lands. In this line tighearnas is used in the same
sense as majesty. Tighearn was evidently synonymous with
Righ, king, at one time, and is no doubt the same word as the
Greek, turannos, a king, U. M'L.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 26 May 16 - 11:00 PM

If it were only in the translation, I'd agree with "GUEST"; perhaps a misheard word or typo, but in fact the Irish Gaelic says "Ri Greige" which, I believe, means "Greek King". I have just found a Scots Gaelic story from Nova Scotia called "Righ na Greige" which may offer some clues...
Julia


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 May 16 - 06:13 PM

You need to refer to the Irish/Gaelic lyric of origin, which is liberally quoted and repeated in posts throughout this thread. Check the last line of that first verse. Is it truly the Gaelic word for "Greek"? If it is, then you have to consider what sort of grand literary metaphor is introduced with that turn of phrase. Helen of Troy, or someone else?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 16 - 06:05 PM

Greek king's daughter is more likely Great king's daughter ie the High King of all Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Noreen
Date: 26 May 16 - 06:59 AM

You may call it portamento, but I feel it is overdone here, and not in keeping with a traditional style.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 25 May 16 - 09:56 PM

This may have been discussed, but I could not find it-

Can someone tell me what's up with the "Greek King's daughter" What is she doing in Ireland?

Forgive my ignorance
J


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 May 16 - 07:39 PM

portamento


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Noreen
Date: 25 May 16 - 05:55 PM

Máire Ní Scolaí

Lovely voice yes, but too much swooping for my taste.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 May 16 - 03:51 PM

On long-playing vinyl, there is an unaccompanied performance dating back to before 1960, by Máire Ní Scolaí. This recording can be "heard" as a YouTube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y1a-H8DIUg

Probably this comes from her broadcast studio recordings for Radio &Eireann/RTÉ. The vinyl LP is "Máire Ní Scolaí," issued by Gael Linn around 1971.

Ní Scolaí sings six verses of "Dónall Óg." I cannot identify her fifth verse; no offense to the singer, as she sings her fifth verse with great dramatic subtlety; can anyone else do more to recognise/identify her Verse 5? Here is an attempt to sum up the verse order from her performance.

Dónall Óg
(traditional)

Verse 1: A Dhónaill Óig, má théir thar fharraige...

Verse 2: Is déanach aréir a labhair an gadhar ort...

Verse 3: Gheall tú dhomsa, is rinne tú bréag liom...

Verse 4: Gheall tú dhomsa ní ba dheacair dhuit...

Verse 5 [fill in the blank]

Verse 6: Bhain tú soir 'gus bhain tú siar dhíom...

(Wow, what a voice she had)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 05:24 AM

Here's something from Libby Larsen, who composed a vocal setting of the poem:
    Composer's Notes:
    The 8th century poem "Donal Oge," (Anonymous) is an abandoned lover's anguished lament. In it the singer begs Donal Oge to take her with him, saying that if he does she will devote herself to him fully, even if in physical danger. She argues that he has made impossible promises to her, all of which he has broken, yet she would do anything to stay near him. She pleads that she would be better for him than a "high, proud, spendthrift lady". She cries out in torment that he has taken everything from her and finally that she mortally fears that he has taken God from her.

    "Donall Oge: Grief of a Girl's Heart" was translated from Gaelic into English by Lady Augusta Gregory, renown Irish dramatist, folklorist and leader in the Irish literary Revival. For this setting, I have used seven of the poems' fourteen stanzas. This ballad has been traced to the 8th century, suggesting that name Donal Oge (Donald the Young), the object of the poem, may possibly be traced to historical figures through Irish the rule of 11th-12th century Clan MacCarthy in the House of Desmond back in time to the 8th and 9th century rule of the house of Carbery in the over kingdom of Munster in the 8th century. It is most likely that the Donal Oge of the poem is a composite folklore figure formed over the centuries in which this ballad has been sung.

    —Libby Larsen
Note that above, Philippa says that the original poem came from the 17th-19th century. I didn't see where Philippa got her information, and Larsen does not say where she found information that the poem came from the 8th century. I think "I don't know" is the most honest answer. Wikipedia says Isabella Augusta, Lady Gregory, was born 15 March 1852 and died 22 May 1932.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM

And don't be discouraged by GUEST 06:43 PM. If it's for a dissertation it's the content and evidence of your work looking for it, thinking about it and understanding it that matters. If you conclude that nobody knows, that's OK as long as you show why.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 03:20 AM

Hi, Ellie - I'm the music editor, so I have magic powers to move you over to this thread, which already has extensive discussion of this song. Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on this song. Note that the 1947 date is the earliest entry among the books indexed by the Ballad Index, which emphasizes books published in the U.S.

    Donall Og (Young Donald)

    DESCRIPTION: Gaelic or English: Singer tells her lover Donal to take her with him, that he'll be well taken care of. She reproaches him for breaking his promise; he says she has ignored him. She says that he is always in her mind, and has taken her past and her future
    AUTHOR: unknown
    EARLIEST DATE: 1947 (Hoagland)
    LONG DESCRIPTION: Gaelic or English: Singer tells her lover, Donall Og (young Donald) to take her with him on his travels, that he'll be well taken care of (and sleep with the Greek king's daughter). She reproaches him for breaking his promise; he replies that she has rejected and ignored him. She says that he is always in her mind, even in the church where she should be thinking of Christ's passion. She says he has taken her past and her future, and perhaps will even take away God himself
    KEYWORDS: hardheartedness love request rejection farewell parting travel abandonment lover foreignlanguage
    FOUND IN: Ireland Britain(Scotland)
    REFERENCES (3 citations):
    Kennedy 31, "Donall Og [Young Donald]" (1 text in Irish Gaelic + translation, 1 tune)
    ADDITIONAL: Kathleen Hoagland, editor, One Thousand Years of Irish Poetry (New York, 1947), pp. 238-240, "Donall Oge: Grief of a Girl's Heart" (1 text, translated by Lady Gregory)
    Donagh MacDonagh and Lennox Robinson, _The Oxford Book of Irish Verse_ (Oxford, 1958, 1979), pp. 106-108, "Donal Oge: Grief of a Girl's Heart" (1 text, translated by Lady Gregory)

    Roud #3379
    ALTERNATE TITLES:
    Donald Og
    Donal Og
    Donal Ogue
    NOTES: A personal note: Kennedy calls this "one of the most intense love songs in the Irish language." Or in English; I can testify that if you are carrying a serious torch for someone, this song can bring you to tears every time. - PJS
    It's pretty strong even if you *aren't* carrying a torch. The English version is reported by Norman Buchan (notes to the recording "The Fisher Family") to have been translated by Frank O'Connor. (The translation by Lady Gregory quoted by Hoagland and MacDonogh/Robinson is very different, and hardly even poetry; I doubt anyone will ever sing it.)
    The text sung by Joyce Fisher omits the references to promise-breaking, making the song a lost love song rather than a betrayal song. The Fishers reportedly had it from Bob Clancey.
    Seosamh O Duibhginn devoted a monograph to the variant texts of this song; according to Kennedy, it contains nearly every version ever collected. - RBW
    File: K031

    Go to the Ballad Search form
    Go to the Ballad Index Song List

    Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
    Go to the Ballad Index Bibliography or Discography

    The Ballad Index Copyright 2014 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


Here's the rather cryptic entry from the archive of Peter Kennedy's folktrax.org:

    DONALL OG - "Young Donald" - Irish Gaelic - O DUIBHGINN 1960 many variant texts - KENNEDY FSBI 1975 # 31 Rodgers -- Kitty RODGERS rec by Noel Hamilton, Baile Thior (Torre Island) 1967: FTX-003 - Sheila GALLAGHER rec by PK, Co Donegal 1953 - Maire AINE NI DHONNCHADHA, Connemara: CLADDAGH CC-6 1970 - Seamus ENNIS: GAEL-LINN CEF-009 [nd] - O BOYLE Family: CEOLTA GAEL OSS-2 1971 on d/cass 0938-C60

    DONALL OG - ("Charming Cailin Ruadh") - Song in English - Traveller finds a maid complaining - the bugle sounds and she bids adieu - (transl from Gaelic by Frank O Connor) -- Michael CRONIN of Macroom Co Cork rec by Alan Lomax, Dublin 1951: 7"RTR- 0587 - Kate MAUDE rec by PK, London 1968 tape - Joyce FISHER (voc/ gtr): TOPIC 12-T-137 1966 - Paddy TUNNEY: TOPIC 12-TS- 264 1975 - Roger NICHOLSON (dulc): LEADER LER-2094 1976 tune only Instrum - CHIEFTAINS 2: TARA (CLADDAGH) TA-4 cass - Instrum DAMBUSTER DAM-006/ CASS-0350




As Stewie says in the first message, there's an entire book published in 1960 titled Dónall Óg, edited by Seosamh Ó Duibhginn (1914–94) - see the note in the Ballad Index entry about Seosamh Ó Duibhginn.

You may also have already checked the Website of the Irish Traditional Music Archive, www.itma.ie - but it's more fun to go there in person. It's worth a trip to Dublin.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal og
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 06:43 PM

The usual Mudcat-these-days mean reaction to a request- it's all been said before, go and look it up. No "I sing it this way".. "I got it from".. "Sean Nose sang it like..."

I suspect no one here knows what having a song means now.

But sadly, I fear that the search for origins will be in vain. Search Comhltas archives, not here, and Cecil Sharp House, and RTE maybe, and write to Shirley Collins because she knows where to look, but in the end I think all you'll find is "Ireland"... and not even much of a terminus post.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Donal og
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM

Put "donal og" in the filter box and select "all" for the period.
You will find many threads with what you want.
Good luck.


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Subject: Origins: Donal og
From: GUEST,Ellie
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 04:15 AM

Hi guys,
I am looking for information on the origins of Donal Og (among other songs). Preferably attributable sources as it's for a dissertation. Any ideas gratefully received!


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Subject: RE: 'The Dead'
From: GUEST,Ella
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 01:43 AM

GUEST, Polly;

The man reciting the poem in 'The Dead' is not gabreil. Gabriel is looking on. the verses the other man says are:

It is late last night the dog was speaking of you;
the snipe was speaking of you in her deep marsh.
It is you are the lonely bird through the woods;
and that you may be without a mate until you find me.

You promised me, and you said a lie to me,
that you would be before me where the sheep are flocked;
I gave a whistle and three hundred cries to you,
and I found nothing there but a bleating lamb.

You promised me a thing that was hard for you,
a ship of gold under a silver mast;
twelve towns with a market in all of them,
and a fine white court by the side of the sea.

You promised me a thing that is not possible,
that you would give me gloves of the skin of a fish;
that you would give me shoes of the skin of a bird;
and a suit of the dearest silk in Ireland.

My mother said to me not to be talking with you today,
or tomorrow, or on the Sunday;
it was a bad time she took for telling me that;
it was shutting the door after the house was robbed.

You have taken the east from me; you have taken the west from me;
you have taken what is before me and what is behind me;
you have taken the moon, you have taken the sun from me;
and my fear is great that you have taken God from me!

I'm watching 'The Dead' right now and I'd really liketo fidn the Gaelic version of these precuise lyrics;they're my favourite arrangement of 'Donal Og'. If anyone knows them pleace contact me on undomielwen@hotmail.com.

-Ella


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:11 AM

Lady Gregory is among people who have translated Dónal Óg into English (original author/s not known). I see I referred to her in my message of 24 Nov 99 above; also have a look at the other threads about this song and you may find the entire Lady Gregory version.

I don't know whether her version is the one used in the film or why the song was chosen for the film


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:03 PM

Hello everyone.

I have noticed the last post in this thread was not that long ago (March 2006), so I am hoping to get an answer to my question.

There is a movie "The Dead" by John Huston, based on Joyce's story from "The Dubliners". In the movie, Gabriel (if I am not mistaken) is reading "Donal Og", its English translation. As far as I remember, one of the verses began like this: "My mother told me not to be seen with you......... It was shutting the door after the house was robbed". Anyway, there is nothing like that in the book itself - Gabriel did not read it. However, for some reason, John Huston decided to put this scene in the movie. I would like to know, who is the author of "Donal Og", because a few years ago, when I looked it up in Google, I found a reference to Lady Gregory. However, in some book I read about Irish history it is said that Joyce was actually the only famous Irish author not recognized by Lady Gregory, and that he even "got back at her" by composing some nasty limerick about her. If anybody knows anything about this, please, let me know.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 07:32 AM

Rich, your message would fit better in a different thread, for instance http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=72285#1247934, (Eamonn a' Chnoic) or the "Ned of the Hill" thread


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Subject: RE: Lyr. Eamon a chnoi
From: GUEST,rich merne
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 03:52 PM

Ĕamon a' Chnoic (The version that I know with a rough trans. Rich Merne, '06)
Cé hé sin amuigh, a bhuil faobhar ar a guth,
S'tá'g reabadh mo dhorais dúnta?
Mise Ĕamon a' chnoic atá báite fúair fliuch,
Ó shíorshúil na sléibhte s'na gleannta.

Is fada mis' 'muigh faoi sneachta's faoi sioc
Is gan dánacht agam ar éinne
Mo shéisreach gan scor, s'mo bhranar gan cur,
Agus gan íad agamsa ar aon chor

Níl cáirde agam, is danaid liom san,
Chun do glachadh mé moch agus déanach,
'Nois do caithigh mé dul thar farraige shoir
Ó 's ánn nach a' bhuil mo ghaelta.

Ó a lao ghil s'a chuid céard a dhéanaimse dhuit'
Mura gcuirfhinn tu féin faoi mo ghúna,
Is nach mbéidh púdar dubh á shiorshéadadh leat,
Ach go mbéimish (together) múchta.   Trans. (le chéile)

Ó mo mhallacht ar'n díamhall ar dhúnmharraidh é,
Is go dóiteann sé 'n-ifreann (forever)
Ach an t'Úasal Ó' Ríain, Ó go mbaireann do h'anam
Ar dheis Dé anois is I gcónai……Trans. (On God's right hand now and forever)
…………………………………………………………..
O! who's that without, with a trembling shout,
Now rattles my door that is bolted?
This is Eamon a' Chnoic and I'm drowned wet and cold,
From traversing the mountains and valleys.

I'm long perished in snow, and in ice and in gale,
I am famished, my life's nearly ended,
My land's without mark, and my fields without seed,
They're no longer my own (ar aon chor) Trans. (in any case)

I haven't a friend to call early or late,
From my family I'm hid and alone,
(Thar na farraige shoir), I must exile from here, Trans. (over the Eastern seas)
And must live in the land of the stranger.

O! my darling, my dote, what am I to do
But to cover you up with my gown,
So that powder and shot will not blast you alone,
But that we'll be together extinguished.

O! my curse on the fiend who has murdered my dear,
May he burn up for ever in Hades,
But my darling Ó'Ríain, may your soul be at rest,
Ar dheis Dé anois is I gcónaí. Trans. (do.)
The story of Edward Ryan………………..Eamon a' Chnoic.(Eamon of the Hill or Eamon th'Hill)

   In the sixteen hundreds, Eamon Ryan, a Tipperary land-owner was dispossessed by Oliver Cromwell's forces. He was from Cnoc MaothailI (the bald hill) in Teampall Beag, Co. Tipperary. A tenant of Ryan's – a widow, was also dispossessed of her cow by one of Cromwell's agents. Eamon a' Chnoic defended her and in the argument he killed the agent.
   He was outlawed and went on the run with a price of two hundred pounds (a lot of money then) on his head. After hiding in the mountains in the winter, where he was destroyed by exposure; he took refuge with an old lover of his who hid him in her house for a time. Its said that the agents looked for him at her house but that she successfully hid him under her dress. Presumably the dress was hanging up or thrown on a bed, but that she wasn't wearing it at the time. Subsequently, Ryan took refuge with a neighbour who killed him for the reward while he slept. Unknown to the neighbour, the reward had been withdrawn shortly beforehand because of Ryan's intercession and influence with his friends in authority. Posterity doesn't record the names of his faithful girlfriend or his treacherous neighbour.
   Edward Ryan's head is alleged to be buried in a very old graveyard at Dun Bleisce in Limerick.
   This story seems to have considerable historic and folklore credence, and it certainly moved the great bard Turlough O'Carolan to give it to posterity.
R.M.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:45 AM

FYI: That wasn't me who posted that last message. Is there another person with the same name lurking around? Strange but not impossible, I guess. If so, you're welcome to use the name James, since I never use it!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,James Dixon
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 06:25 PM

Have any of you heard Barbara Dickson's version of this beautiful song on her album (now very difficult to get hold of as out of production) "Parcel of Rogues". Very emotional and powerful. This is an incredibly moving song, especially the last verse. Hope you all get a chance to enjoy Barbara's version.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM

Michael McGoldrick has Dónall Óg on his album 'Fused.' It's a great recording, you all should go check it out.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 04:23 PM

Bian O'Rourke has a song in English called Aisling Óg. It is sort of a parody on Dónall Óg, as if Dónall is talking to the one who's talking to him in the Irish song. Same tape as the bodhrán song that people seem to know best.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:21 PM

I happened to come across a real audio sample of Roisín Elsafty singing Dónall Óg


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 06:26 AM

in Abhráin Grádh Chúige Connacht - Love Songs of Connacht (1893), Douglas Hyde includes a song of 5 verses which he collected, called - after its first line - "Dá dtéidhinn-se siar", If I were to go west, and the verses are similar to verses of Dónal Óg.

He has two of the verses which I did my own translation for above:
Tá mo ghrá-sa ar dhath na sméara...
Instead of "Ar dhath na n-airní", Hyde has ..."Ar dhath na súgh-craobh", so his translation reads:

My love is of the colour of the blackberries
And the colour of the raspberry on a fine sunny day.
Of the colour of the darkest heath-berries of the mountain,
And often has there been a black head upon a bright body.

For the verse beginning "Is mithid dom ..." Hyde's translation is:

Time it is for me to leave this town,
The stone is sharp in it, and the mould is cold;
It ws in it I got a voice (blame), without riches,
And a heavy word from the band who back-bite.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 12:34 PM

re my message of 24 Nov 99: Kathleen Hoagland, ed. 1000 Years of Irish Poetry was re-issued in the last year or two. I don't have the publication details, but it would not be hard to look up.

Re: messages from Judith and from Malcolm Douglas 24 May 00 : I notice Bonnie Shaljean has been posting at Mudcat over the past year. I saw Packie Byrne launching a book in Ardara, County Donegal last year. Frail yes, but still getting about and in great form. He was also at the Inishowen traditional singing festival (I forget was that 2002 or 2003 or both?)

Re: Donegal version, Dónall Óg is on a recording of Éamonn Mac Ruairí and Patricia Nic Ruairí of Tory Island on "Toraigh Ó Thuaidh" CIC023 (Cló Iar-Chonnachta)

Recordings of Conamara versions are available from the same company:
CIC088   Máire Uí Dhroighneáin, Peatsaí Ó Ceannabháin and Pat Phádraic Tom Ó Conghaile, "Tógfaidh Mé Mo Sheolta "
CIC022   Treasa Ní Mhiolláin, "An Clochar Bán"

Probably more difficult to get a copy of is Róisín Elsafty singing Dónall Ó on the 1996 recording she made with her mother Treasa Ní Cheannabáin, "Irlande: l'art du sean-nós" on Buda Musique


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Subject: Lyr Add: Dónal Óg
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 12:31 PM

Although there is a lot of information in this thread, it is very scattered. I found among my papers a photocopy of a 14-verse rendition of Dónal Óg paired with Seán Lucy's 15-verse translation. Five of Lucy's verses are not in the Irish-language version on the photocopy, and the Irish-language version includes four verses that aren't translated by Lucy. I have re-arranged the Irish-language verses to correspond more closely to the Lucy translation; the numbers in parentheses represent the 'original' order of the verses. Where Lucy has a verse that is not in this Irish-language version, I have inserted that verse in Irish from other sources. Irish-language verses 1, 10, 12 & 13 are not in the Lucy translation so I have bracketed my own rough translation (I'm not very satisfied with my verse 13 translation!).

DÓNAL ÓG (anon. 17-19th centuries, translated by Seán Lucy)

Donal Óg, if you cross the water
Take me with you and don't forget to;
At fair and market you shall have a fairing
And the Greek King's daughter for your bed-companion.

If you go away I've a way, I've a way to know you;
Two green eyes and the bright fair head of you,
Adozen curls on your top-knot clustering -
Like a bright yellow flag or a rose in flowering.

And late last night the watchdog spoke of you,
The snipe declared you in the deepest bogland,
And you, like lonely wild goose, gone through the wodlands -
And be lonely always until you marry me.

You made a promise, and you told a lie then,
To come and meet me where sheep are folded,
I whistled loud and I shouted often
With no reply but a small lamb bleating.

You made a promise, one of difficulty,
A fleet of gold with masts of silver,
A dozen towns, in each a market,
And a limewhite palace beside the seashore.

You made a promise, a thing unlikely,
That you would give me fine gloves of fishskin,
That you would give me fine shoes of bird skin,
And a suit of silk, the dearest in Erin.

O Donal Óg, I would be better for you,
Than a noble lady proud and haughty,
I'd milk the cow and I'd turn the churn for you,
And if things were difficult I'd strike a blow for you.

O my grief! And it's not the hunger,
The want of food, drink, or sleep enough,
That has left me so thin and perishing,
But a young man's love that has surely wasted me.

At early morning I sighted my true love
Up on horseback riding the roadway,
He passed me by and he didn't call me,
On returning home again I was crying sorely.

When by myself at the Well of Lonesomeness
Sitting down I make my sorrowing,
I see the world and no trace of my darling,
With the glow of amber on his warm cheeks shining.

That was the Sunday I gave my love to you,
The very Sunday before Easter Sunday,
I was reading the Passion on my knees devoutly
While still my two eyes were sending my love to you.

Mother said to me not to speak to you
Today nor tomorrow nor on the Sunday,
But bad the time she chose for telling me,
Twas locking the door up after the robbery.

Mother, my little one, give me to him,
And also give to him all of your property,
Out yourself and beg for charity
And don't come East or West to find me.

My heart is black as a sloe inside me,
Or the blackest coal that's in the forge there,
Or a dark footprint in the gleaming hallways,
and 'twas you who turned my life so black and bitter.

You've taken East from me and you've taken West from me,
And what's before me and what's behind me,
You've taken sun from me and you've taken moon from me,
And my fear is terrible you've taken God from me.

DÓNAL ÓG

A Dhónaill Óig, má théir thar fharraige
Beir mé féin leat 's ná deán mo dhearmad
Beidh agat féirín lá aonaigh is margaidh
Agus iníon Rí Gréige mar chéile leapa 'gat (4)

Má théir anonn tá comhartha agam ort:
Tá cúl fionn is dhá shúil ghlasa agat,
Dhá chocán déag i do chúl buí bachallach
Mar bheadh béal na bó nó rós i ngarraithe. (5)

Is déanach aréir a labhair an gadhar ort,
do labhair an naoscach sa churraichín doimhin ort:
Tú id' chaonaí uaigneach ar fuaid na gcoillte,
Is go rabhair gan chéile go héag go bhfaighir mé. (6)

Gheall tú dhomsa, is rinne tú bréag liom,
Go mbeifeá romham ag cró na gcaorach;
Lig mé fead agus dhá ghlao dhéag ort.
'S ní bhfuair mé romham ach na huain ag méiligh. (7)

Gheall tú dhomsa ní ba dheacair dhuit,
Loingeas óir faoi chrann seóil airgid,
Dhá cheann déag de bhailte margaidh.
'S cúirt bhreá aolta cois taobh na farraige. (9)

Gheall tú dhomsa ní nár bh'féidir,
Go dtabharfá laimhinní de chraiceann éisg dom
Go dtabharfá brógaí de chraiceann éan dom
Agus culaith don tsíoda ba dhaoire i nÉirinn. [based on a verse from Munster in Ó Duibhgeáin*]

A Dhomhnall Óig, b'fhearr dhuit mise agat
Ná bean uasal uaibhreach iomarcach
Chrúfainn bó agus dhéanfainn cuigean duit,
Is dá mba cruaidh é do bhuailinn buille leat.(3)

Och, och ón, agus ní le hocras,
Uireasa bídh, dí ná codlata,
Faoi ndeara domsa bheith tanaí trochlaithe,
Ach grá fir óig is é bhreoigh go follas mé. [published in Ó Duibhgeáin]

Is moch ar maidin do chonaic mise an t-ógfhear
Ar mhuin chapaill ag gabháil an bóthar,
Níor dhruid sé liom is níor chuir ná stró orm,
'S ar mo chasadh abhaile dhom 'sea do ghoileas mo dhóthain. [published in Ó Duibheagáin]

Nuair a théimse féin go Tobar an Uaignis*
Ag tabhairt an turais ar son mo ghrá ghil -
Níl mo shúil leat inniu ná amárach,
A mhuirnín dhílis, mo mhíle slán leat. (8)

Siúd é an Domhnach a dtug mé grá dhuit
A' Domhnach díreach roimh Dhomhnach Cásca
Is tú ar do ghlúine a' léamh na Páise
Sea bhí mo dhá shúil a' síor-thabhairt grá dhuit. [verse from Máire Áine Ní Dhonnchadha]

Dúirt mo mháithrín liom gan labhairt leat
Inniú ná amarach nó Dé Domhnaigh **
Is olc an tráth ar thug sí rabhadh dhom -
Is é fál ar an ngort é i ndiaidh na foghla. (11)

A mháthairín dhílis, tabhair mé féin do
Tabhair a bhfuil agat de'n tsaol go léir do
Téigh, thú féin, ag iarraidh na déirce,
Is ná gabh siar ná aniar dom' éiliú.
[Connacht verse published in Ó Duibhgeáin; I have substituted a Munster line closer to Lucy's for line 2: Tabhair na ba is na caoirigh go léir do give him all the cattle and sheep]

Tá mo ghrá-sa ar dhath na sméara [my love is the colour of blackberries]
Is ar dhath na n-airní lá breá gréine, [and the colour of the sloe on a sunny day]
Ar dhath na bhfraochóg ba dhuibhe an tsléibhe, [the hue of the darkest bilberry on the mountain]
'S is minic a bhí ceann dubh ar cholainn ghléigeal. [it's often a black head was on a bright body] (1)

Tá mo chroí-se chomh dubh le hairne
Nó le gual dubh a dhóifí i gceárta
Nó le bonn bróige ar hallaí bana
Agus tá lionn dubh mór os cionn mo gháire.(2)

Ní raibh id' ghrá-sa ach mám den tsneachta gheal, [your love was but a handful of bright snow]
Nó gaineamh i dtrá i lár na farraige, [or sand of the beach in the middle of the ocean]
Nó feóchan gaoithe thar dhruim na ngarraithe, [or a gust of wind on the over the garden]
Nó tuile thréan do bheadh t'réis lae fearthainne. [or a heavy flow after a day of rain (i.e., temporary)] (10)

Is mithid dom féin an baile seo a fhagáil; [it's time for me to leave this place]
Is géar an chloch 's is fuar an láib ann; [where the stone is sharp and the mud is cold]
Is ann a fuaireas guth gan éadáil [it's there I got a call that came to nothing]
Agus focal trom trom ó lucht an bhéadáin. [and a heavy heavy word from the gossipers] (12)

Fuagraim an grá - is mairg a thug é [I declare that love was an affliction]
Do mhac na mná úd ariamh nár thuig é [to the son of any woman who didn't understand it (?)]
Mo chroí ' mo lár gur fhág sé dubh é [my heart in my breast is left desolate by him/by it]
Is ní fheicim ar an tsráid seo ná in áit ar bith é. [and I don't see him on this street or anywhere else](13)

Bhain tú thoir dhíom 'gus bhain tú thiar dhíom
Bhain tú 'n ghealach is bhain tú an ghrian díom
Bhain tú an croí geal a bhí ' mo chliabh dhíom
'S is ró-mhór m'fhaitíos gur bhain tú Dia dom.(14)

* Verses published in "Ceol na nOileán" and "Amhrááin Ghrádha Chúige Chonnacht" reported by Seosamh Ó Duibhgeáin begin "Gheall tú dhomsa is rinne tú bréag liom/go gcuirfeá gúna orm de chlúmhach na n-éanlaith" - You promised, but it was a lie, that you would dress me in a gown of birds' feathers.

**Changed from "Tobar Phádraig" & "Aon lá den tseachtain ná Dé Domhnaigh" in this version. "Tobar an Uaignis" and "inniu nó amarach ..." , from other versions of the song, are even closer to Lucy's translation)

The translation by Lady Gregory may be found at thread 4277.
Most people singing in English use either the Séamus Ennis or Frank O'Connor translations. Also at thread 4277, Wolfgang gives a compilation of his favourite verses for singing.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 08:25 AM

re. the message of 10 Dec 99 - 05:23 PM: I don't have Kennedy's book to hand, but if my memory is correct, he published the Donegal tune for Dónal Óg. That version is available on a recording of Maighread Ní Dhomhnaill, I believe. The tune is quite different than that sung by the Conamara singers, which in turn is slightly different (and more ornamented) than the way the song is sung in English translations.

I haven't listened to the midis to compare, but there are plenty of recordings of this song available in both Irish and English (even if you can't get a copy of Al O'Donnell).


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Subject: Lyr Add: DÓNAL ÓG / YOUNG DONALD
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 07:12 AM

I found more verses of the O'Connor translation in Patrica Craig, ed.: "The Oxford Book of Ireland"

DÓNAL ÓG
(18th century Irish) Translation by Frank O'Connor

Donal Ogue, when you cross the water,
Take me with you to be your partner
And at fair and market you'll be well looked after,
And you can sleep with the Greek king's daughter.

You said you would meet me, but you were lying,
Beside the sheepfold when the day was dying,
I whistled first, then I started hailing,
But all I heard was the +young lambs' wailing.

You said you'd give me – an airy giver! -
A golden ship with masts of silver,
Twelve market towns to be my fortune
And a fine white mansion beside the ocean.

You said you'd give me – 'tis you talk lightly!-
Fish-skin gloves that would fit me tightly,
Bird-skin shoes when I went out walking,
And a silken dress would set Ireland talking.

Ah, Donal Ogue, you'd not find me lazy,
Like many a high-born expensive lady;
I'd do your milking and I'd nurse your baby,
And if you were set on I'd back you bravely.

To Lonely Well I wander sighing,
'Tis there i do my fill of crying,
When I see the world but not my charmer,
And all his locks the shade of amber.

I saw you first on a Sunday evening
Before the Easter and I was kneeling,
'Twas about Christ's passion that I was reading,
But my eyes were on you and my own heart bleeding.

My mother said we should not be meeting,
That I should pass and not give you greeting;
'Twas a good time surely she chose for cheating
With the stable bare and the horse retreating.

You might as well let him have me, mother,
And every penny you have moreover;
Go beg your bread like any other
But him and me don't seek to bother.

Black as the sloe is the heart inside me,
Black as the coal with the griefs that drive me,
Black as the boot print on shining hallways
And 'twas you that blackened it ever and always.

For you took what's before me and what's behind me,
You took east and west when you wouldn't mind me,
Sun and moon from my sky you have taken,
And God as well, or I'm much mistaken.

line breaks fixed by mudelf


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 May 00 - 12:24 AM

Bonnie Shaljean (you were close!) did record it, on Roundtower (Dingle's Records DIN 311, 1981), which she made with Packie.  Last I heard, he was frail, but still very much alive.

Malcolm


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