UK Festivals changed

Subject: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 10:37 AM

When I first began to attend folk festivals from the late 70's, as well as the organised concerts, dances & workshops, there was always a strong fringe element of impromptu music & song sessions in many pubs & other venues in the vicinity.

In recent years, I've noticed a diminution of available venues for this type of activity, with paid bands being put on in mini-concert type set ups.

Anyone else aware of these changes?

Suggestions?

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 10:46 AM

Considering the rate at which pubs are closing there is bound to be a loss of available venues.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 10:58 AM

No, if you read what I've written, it's plain I'm talking about places which are open

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 11:25 AM

Festival guests or landlords putting on live bands to cash in on the festival?

Haven't noticed at the festivals that I go to but of course the loss of a regular venue may displace those events to one that is already music friendly.

Examples?

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 12:10 PM

I've noticed the same thing Mr Happy. There used to be some fantastic sessions in the Volunteer at Sidmouth FF, alas now displaced by PA's and booked/packaged bands, some not folk and many not that good.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 12:11 PM

At Sidmouth The Swan and The Volounteer have had electric bands in the bar or in a marquee for SOME of the Festival in recent years , as have other pubs that in the past have housed 'fringe' sessions

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 12:16 PM

SNAP !!

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:38 PM

I haven't noticed any band gigs creeping in to Whitby.

The only other English festival I've been to was Woodbridge (RIP) a few years ago, where nondescript local rock bands had managed to squeeze almost everything else out. The best session venue was a sailing barge some friendly people had brought up for a visit - not something to count on, since nobody had managed to get one there for 100 years.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM

Very interesting - perhaps explains why we're having a run on tickets for Whitby Folk Week? We have a massive 'fringe' and 600+ organised events in addition! (People often go to a workshop in the morning and then spend the afternoon/evening in a session practicing what they just learned.)

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 02:06 PM

Hmm. Very much in tune with my thoughts. When is Whitby? I've never been but if it's the only gam left in town perhaps I should consider dusting off teh Starship Enterprise and travelling to teh Delta Quadrant.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mo the caller
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 02:24 PM

The week before the August bank holiday - it finishes on the the Friday before the bank holiday Monday.

Whitby has both a free-but-on-the programme fringe, and an unofficial-for-those-who-know fringe. The season tickets for the full week are excellent value if you want to go to several of the concerts, workshops, dances and ceilidhs - it gives flexibility to try a bit then go somewhere else, but you can also pay-as-you go. £5 for a workshop I think.
If you buy a week season ticket there is cheap camping available organised by the festival, also a campsite for those attending part of the festival or fringe, run by Moor & Coast. A bit dearer but good value. Both on school playing fields.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 02:55 PM

The Vounteer sessions at Sidmouth gone? That's a real shame. And I can't imagine that any paid band would be likely to bring in a bigger crowd than they did. Sounds like a crazy landlord who'd have done that. Though I suppose they might sell more drink with fewer people - it was a job getting to the bar with all the people jammed in.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM

I've fancied Whitby for ages. Long before I began singing a couple of friends of mine used to go Morris dancing there every year and spoke very highly of the event.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 03:58 PM

Hmmmmn. I fancy this too. You going, CS?

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 05:43 PM

Kevin - re The Volounteer - The Traditional bash still happens inside the pub , the bands have all been in the garden over the last couple of years .
NO Electric bands in The Newt yet though .

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Splott Man
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:00 AM

The Dame & I found plenty of sessions and singarounds at Sidmouth last year. All non-ticket events.
Since the 70s, the proportion of people who participate rather than audient has increased immensely. Some of the festivals I go to seem to be all full fringe events and empty concerts.

Splott Man

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:47 AM

Try http://www.whitbyfolk.co.uk and there's also a Facebook page simply, 'Whitby Folk Week' One thing we guarantee, no electric bands at this festival which prides itself on celebrating the traditional music and song of the UK.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM

Splott Man,

Thanks for your comment:

Some of the festivals I go to seem to be all full fringe events and empty concerts.

A most significant observation of which I've also been aware of late.

Pity more fest organisers don't take this under consideration

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: banjoman
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 05:57 AM

Went to Whitby last year after a gap of many years. A really great festival with plenty of "Fringe " events as well as the usual line up of artists who appear at every festival.

The festival that has changed most IMO is Broadstairs which has almost become a pop event with very few opportunities to join in unless your able to climb the stairs to the sailing club or squeeze into the overpacked sessionbs at the Wrotham.
Mind you, the artistic director once told me that she wasn't a folkie but a jazz enthusiast.A pity to see what was a great event so much in decline.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:00 AM

I think the ticket at Whitby is good value, so we would tend to buy one even if we are not going to a lot of the organised events. The camp site is a bit crowded but fairly central.
The only concern is the concerts tend to be very long, and mostly second rankers. If there is one act you want to see and you have a disability and want a seat that means getting there at the start.
FloraG

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:10 AM

"Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 03:58 PM

Hmmmmn. I fancy this too. You going, CS?"

Don't know as yet Rachel, though I have downloaded the Stewarding Application form available here:

http://www.whitbyfolk.co.uk/Stewards

Surprisingly coach prices are around £60 return for the 250 miles from witham to whitby, which isn't too bad. Though all day coach travelling can be a drag it gets you there.

If a few peeps I know were likely to go, that would definitely make it more appealing!

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mo the caller
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM

I'm not sure how your ranking system works, Flora.
I don't go to many concerts, but the ones I do go to at Whitby are most enjoyable.
I don't think Whitby books many of the 'big names', but most guests are excellent, on my ranking.

Those festivals that do book big names send me searching for my earplugs and moving to the back row, or even out of the marquee, when they come on.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:26 AM

Blimey Whitby is pretty reasonable. A full season ticket including camping is £140 if booked before May - £150 if bought in August.

Definitely worth considering. Compared to Sidmouth (£300 for season ticket plus cost for one adult camping) it's a bargain.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 10:05 AM

Upton upon Severn has a healthy clutch of sessions and SAR. Given that it is a smallish festival & they can't afford an excess of paid entertainment I counted 4/5 sessions running most of the time. The Talbot always had an amplified set cashing-in on the weekend.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,JHW(cookie on old computer)
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 10:42 AM

Don't know how far back you are reflecting but 'once upon a time' fringe events had substantial populations of folks who had no festival ticket. Still the case with big festivals such as Sidmouth and Whitby aforementioned as they have all sorts of accommodation. Long since though the weekend festivals moved, for good reasons, to restricting festival camping to seasoned ticket holders. This barred the many looking for a cheap weekend away.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 10:59 AM

If people are only attending fringe events, why do they need at festival ticket?

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Acorn4
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM

We've deserted Shrewsbury for Whitby in the last couple of years for the reasons outlined above.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Albert O'Balsom
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:35 AM

Mr Happy, surely they must realise that the festival has been organised at a cost. No fringe without a festival, and much hard work, and possible financial input by those organising.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:36 AM

Is it that you are to ti
ght to buy a ticket and dont want to support the festivals

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:49 AM

The work you mention is for the official festival & I agree that people need a ticket for concerts & other events at the festival.

However, how do you conclude that people in public houses need tickets?

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:15 PM

because without people paying the festival cannot excist somebody has to pay.we all cant be freeloaders

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Albert O'Balsom
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:22 PM

Hello Mr Happy, If your response is to my post, I do not conclude that people in public houses need tickets. I merely meant to point out that festivals are organised, calendered events. Howerer,without organisation, often volunteer led, many festivals would not exist. By all means have your fringe events. I have myself participated in such for more than 30 years, while also engaged in performance. I do believe, however,that we must acknowledge our responsibility to those who bring it all together and make these events happen.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:22 PM

It's a poor show that a festival can't exist for the reason you give.

There's many folk events which exist which are totally free

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Albert O'Balsom
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:47 PM

Totally free? I play in my local pub and acknowledge that it costs the landlord to remain open. If our music does not generate sufficient interest and income to a venue then we must perhaps our accept our position of minority. Would that it were different.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 01:05 PM

I also play in many pubs but I've never been charged money to do so

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 01:20 PM

A few observations on the discussion.
Different festivals have different artistic policies, with different guest lists. There's already discussion about the same names turning up on festival guest lists, without trying to make them even more the same!!
I personally have eclectic tastes, and enjoy both Sidmouth and Whitby. I'm not surprised Whitby is cheaper than Sidmouth - they have different approaches - one is not better than the other, they are just different, IMHO.
Whitby is a larger town than Sidmouth and has a more proactive approach to tourism with a range of different events throughout the year (Goth weekend anyone?) Sidmouth is smaller and different, and FolkWeek is a crucial event in the local economy. I am not surprised, though sometimes dismayed!, when local pubs put on rock bands during the festival week. I bet there are pubs in Whitby that have rock bands during folk week, but there are more pubs in Whitby!
Any festival that has guests and events have to have income. Some people buy season tickets, some buy event tickets. Some buy no tickets at all, yet take advantage of the festival being there to enjoy the atmosphere. We can't do anything about that (though, as I say above, I am sometimes dismayed.....)!

Derek

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mo the caller
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 01:39 PM

Some buy tickets, some put money in collecting tins, some go to part of the free fringe at local festivals and buy tickets for those further afield, some pay their 'folkie dues' by organising regular local events, some come to the fringe and add to the ambience by playing or singing in pubs - good for trade in the town, some are just members of the general public enjoying the spectacle, or moaning about the disruption.

Room for all.
I don't like the term freeloaders.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: The Barden of England
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM

CS - Ask V Tam about Sidmouth.

John Barden

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: The Barden of England
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 03:16 PM

By the way, you can go camping only to Sidmouth, cost is £95, then you can go to a concert if you wish or not, plenty of sessions and the Middle Bar is right up your street. I've rarely seen electric music there, and always put money in the collection tins. No festival, no fringe.
John Barden

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 03:38 PM

Middle Bar had to move upstairs to allow for the electric folk in the rear yard. Some artists ok but mostly very poor for me.

My other gripe with Sidmouth is that the Market Traders have now almost totally taken over along the Promenade. It used be artists every few yards, now just a few squeezed out to each end. IT all started to go wrong when the Peruvian pipers came along, all heavily amplified, and if I'm not mistaken playing to backing tracks.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:44 PM

Market traders on the seafront - not in any sense organised by the festival. Totally the responsibility of East devon District Council, to who all letters of complaint should be directed! Another thing that dismays me!
Derek

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:12 PM

When the 'Official' Beverley festival folded a few years back , they ran a 'Fringe' festival the following year , ALL sessions in pubs that
was successful enough that that they restarted the 'Official' Festival the following year

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 08:06 PM

I bet there are pubs in Whitby that have rock bands during folk week, but there are more pubs in Whitby!

If there are, they must be somewhere I didn't think of going. I never had the experience at Whitby of going to a pub expecting a session or singaround and getting a booked band instead.

think the only other festival I've been to that was comparably pub-band-free was Kirriemuir, but that's tiny in comparison.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 05:16 AM

"I also play in many pubs but I've never been charged money to do so "
Where are these pubs where you can stay all night without buying a drink?

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 06:21 AM

The players pay the same price as other drinkers, so they are not paying to play. Indeed I have seen them get bought a pint or so each.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 07:08 AM

Indeed, every venue I've ever held the session & we're presently in our 4th 'home', at the very outset, given that we can guarantee any publican of a fullish roomful every week, that they supply refreshments in the form of butties etc & this has always been the case

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 07:15 AM

What, hypothetically, would it be like to go to Whitby in Folk Week without a ticket for anything? Would you

a) find there were so many unmissable acts were on that you'd end up getting day tickets anyway
b) have a whale of a time in the sessions and singarounds without ever paying for anything except beer (and the odd quid in a tin)

or something in between?

I ask because I'm much more interested in participating than sitting in audiences, as a general thing. Of course there are exceptions - in the list of performers on the main Folk Week page there are a good five or six people I'd really like to see. On the other hand, there are a lot more than five or six people on that list! Does the Folk Week crowd divide into sessioners, dancers and concert-goers, or does everyone do everything?

Genuine question - I'm a festival virgin (the odd day trip aside), so I really can't picture the scene, as it were.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 07:47 AM

We've bought weekly tickets up to now, but we'll pay on the door this year as we didn't quite go to enough to make the ticket worthwhile last year. One advantage of the weekly ticket is that it gets you further up the queue for popular events, but hardly anything sold out last year.

I do a lot of sessioning and quite a lot of workshop and concert-going. There are a crowd of pub-session-only types as well, like the Irish-trad crowd at the Ship and the singer-with-guitar bunch at the Middle Earth. But it's a big enough place that nobody treads on each other's toes.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:00 AM

At Bromyard you can see all sorts of tickets displayed in the unorganised sessions in the town.
At Sidmouth we have camped opposite the the Caravan Park (Golf Club) in a bigger field that is flat & cheaper and relatively quiet. The bus comes by morning and evening & late, it is 1 hour's pleasant walk but not recommended in the dark.
I am not sure buying a ticket for the events we go to is cost effective, but it gives a measure of freedom of choice. But if the venue is oversubscribed the ticket doesn't give much priority, only queuing early will do that.
The rugby club is a good camping site for motor caravans, but not caravans, they don't allow even a 9 footer! People who have booked have got on with a large enough caravan (pick your excuse).

There is enough fringe at Sidmouth - though you can tire of them in the week without the free ceilidhs in the Anchor Gardens.

There is always the Connaught Tea Rooms - their portion control could be a problem if you are on a diet. But highly recommended. There is enough time in a week to do it all.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:16 AM

Some of each.
It depends what your friends are doing.
There are certainly people who come to Whitby for the sessions.I know there is a group that camp together each year and spend all their time in a pub session.
Some who spend most of their time at sessions but pay a fiver for a workshop most days (and are careful to allow time to get to the workshops - Whitby is spread through the town and both sides of the cliff, and if you have a season ticket you might dash out of one event and make a ten minute sprint to get to the next not too late).

I started going to Whitby as a ceilidh dancer - it expanded my horizons in all sorts of ways. Dancing among experts in Playford, American, Irish sets, tasting the workshops in Sword and clog. Then going to the Harmony singing, and Join the Band. Then we had a break, but went back after we'd started going to tunes sessions - Whitby has sessions for every level of player (including a 'Not quite ready for a Session', and George Garside's Steady pace session). We tend not to go to the singarounds and shanties at Whitby - I think they are hard to get a good seat in if you arrive in a dash.

So yes, people do come to Whitby with special interests and find others who take those interests to a higher level - we dance dances that I would never dream of calling at home. But also try other things - I was early in the pub for a session and found myself with a set of bagpipes under my arm.

The halfway house between week-season (paid in advance is cheapest), and pay-as-you-go, is to look at the programme and work out if there is any day when you want to go to several things. Day/weekend tickets can be good value.

With a week season I can do as I please - start the evening in the Ceilidh, when I've had enough or it gets crowded pop downstairs to the dancers dance, look into the latenight ceilidh even if I don't stay long, or go over the road to catch one act in a late night concert. And not worry that I'm wasting my money on 4 acts I don't want to hear, or even sleep through.
One year one of our group didn't have a season ticket - she found it expensive to keep up with our wanderings.
I always buy my next ticket at the extra-early-price, before the festival ends.