BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 12:10 PM

Bobert: "Bottom line here is that we are being manipulated by BIG OIL to do some very stupid stuff so they can make BIG $$$..."

...and don't you think those "BIG $$$..." have bought off the policies of the government??...Obama included....or else why would this even be a topic??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:01 PM

My comments about fracking are directed at the apparent acceptance of the practice in the U.S., where it is developing rapidly.

As a former oil company researcher, I regard fracking as a dangerous practice, in spite of advances made recently.

The oil sands are a readily available resource from a limited area in Saskatchewan-Alberta, and its bitumen will be developed and shipped to consumers, whether the U.S. increases its intake (already considerable through the current pipeline to Cushing, etc.) or not.

Plans for the westcoast pipeline to B. C. also should receive approval shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:58 PM

Q, and all others concerned with the very real environmental concerns,
The concern is real...but the money, and the political expediency will disregard those issues. It was only a cover story, to appeal to the 'liberals' to hide the fact, that our suspension of drilling on federal lands was to facilitate Kissinger's 'deal' with the Saudis, in 1979.
You really ought to look into that, and address that..that is where the real argument lays.
But then, in reality, political parties can only make great gains, by having an ill-informed electorate!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 06:00 PM

The issue that the Pipeline will increase global warming radically is being buried by the news media. This is the real argument. Some scientists are getting a healthy paycheck from Energy CEO's for going against their conscience. Is Obama on that payroll?

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:25 PM

Stringsinger: "Is Obama on that payroll?"

Is this just NOW occurring to you???

NDAA?? Drones in the U.S.?? Crooked 'bailouts'?? Afghanistan?? The 'provisions' found inside the Obamacare disaster?? Repeated lying about Benghazi?? Lying about the 'sequester'?? Paying off cronies with taxpayer money?? 'Fast and Furious'? Virtually every campaign promise, broken? Transparency of his administration??

"Is Obama on that payroll?"
\
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:53 PM

Most of the above post consists of Right Wing allegations with no substantiation whatever. World News Daily stuff. I get WND in my e-mail every morning just to see what these people are saying. Pretty rank, hate-filled stuff.

I think their main problem with President Obama, although they know it would get them in deep doo-doo if they let on, is that he's the "wrong color."

With a bit of Googling, it isn't very hard to find out where this stuff comes from.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 04:22 AM

As usual, you turn attention away from FACTS, and make it a 'hate based observation'..and try to pump it up.
Obama's deceptive history has little to do with his color, and your looking the 'other way' and blaming those who see it as what it is, is just a predisposition to custom fit your delusions into your reality, and to support that position, you attempt to pull as many people into your delusion, to perpetuate your myths...(we all know the 'other' one)
Your posted history on Mudcat is loaded with your tactics of doing just that...but then, isn't that the nature of politics??? Controlling masses of people to rally around a false premise...if it wasn't politics, you'd be a 'religious zealot'....similar mindsets.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:09 PM

Q--

I can't tell you how surprised I am that you're not champing at the bit to be allowed to live where you can see fracking going on from your house.    And enjoy the possible benefits to your drinking water, etc.

I thought sure you were going to tell us how there is no downside whatsoever to living in the midst of a fracking area.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:58 PM

Ron Davies- you need a course in remedial reading.
I stated:
"As a former oil company researcher, I regard fracking as a dangerous practice, in spite of advances made recently."

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 02:00 PM

I think you'll find that Q knows of which he speaks on a regular and reliable basis on a number of topics. Many herein would be wise to carefully consider especially what he says about the mining industry in spite of any dedication to other, some valid and some valid but also "pie-in-the-sky", concepts, facts and fears. Simply being right or righteous does not "make it so". At some point, reality and practicality have to be weighed.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:14 PM

Q has forgot more about the business of oil than most of us will ever know, 'cept he ain't forgot it. His knowledge regarding the oil business is impressive. When he talks opinion (Harper gov't) I think he's out to lunch. When he talks oil or natural gas he's worth heeding. In that regard he doesn't let his politics get in the way of his facts. No offence to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:43 PM

"remedial reading".

So you are against fracking?    Yes or no?

Straight answer, please.    No tome necessary--no weaseling about "only in certain circumstances" or something similar.

Thanks so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:41 PM

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ri2BG2qOvCg?feature=player_detailpage


Made in Canada. (Just rec'd this link from a friend.)

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:29 PM

Remember please that Obama has very few good choices if he wants to remain alive.
There are sinister elements in right wing society that would not hesitate to execute him.

The right wing almost executed FDR until the whistle was blown on the attempt by Smedley Butler and others.

This is a sad commentary on how much the political system has advanced under Capitalism.

Still, if he approves the Pipeline, his legacy is toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:29 PM

999. The Zenn car is dead, and has been for about three years. Its range of 40 miles and top speed of 40kph (25mph) was inadequate for our cities and distances.

Hybrid cars seem to be the flavor of the day, and are gaining in popularity, although they are not cheap.

The Zenn company now is working as a parts supplier, on a new kind of battery.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:16 PM

Thanks for the info, Q. A day late and a buck short, that's me.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:50 PM

Fascinating.   No answer on whether Q is against fracking or not.   Perhaps he doesn't believe in straight answers.

Or perhaps it's awkward since he earlier suggested fracking as an alternative to XL.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM

I, for one, am against fracking, I am against tar sands oil or off-shore drilling, I am against coal, especially shipping it to China (coal fire and automobile pollution in Beijing, which gradually disperses and pollutes the whole atmosphere), and considering the accidents that have happened and the longevity and difficulty of dealing with the waste, I am against nuclear.

I AM in favor of the many renewable and non-polluting energy resources that are readily available and relatively inexpensive to develop, some of which I outlined in a post above. But as I also said, "We won't have solar power until the power companies figure out how to run a sunbeam through a meter!"

Or until independent entrepreneurs who know some science, and who are environmentally aware, get cracking.

=======

Goofball, you wouldn't recognize an actual fact if it was staring you in the face and handing you its ID card.

Most of the stuff you have been posting comes, not from the Real World, but from Right Wing and anti-Obama newsletters and web sites.

High school and college teachers often use a little trick when a student submits a paper in which the writing is better than what that student normally submits. They take a sentence from the paper, type it into the Google search box, and it often takes them right to the web site the student plagiarized the paper from. And the student is busted!

Sometimes, when it looks like you've actually managed to write a coherent sentence, I've used that same trick—and I've found the Right Wing or anti-Obama web site where you got it.

BUSTED!!

Interesting to note that you're all insults and criticism. Negative! You never seem to have any positive suggestions to make about anything ("religious zealot?" Where the hell did that come from?).

You hate Obama, you hate gays, you hate Liberals, you even come on like you hate Right Wingers, even though you talk like one all the time.

Why, pray tell, is that?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:55 PM

Ron Davies... a remedial reading course will not help you. He posted and reposted what he said. Near as I know, he hasn't got the time or poor manners to tell you to frack off. But, if that's what you need, *I* can oblige. I'd just use a slightly different terminology.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 08:47 PM

Fracking is not only dangerous but ill-thought-out... Some folks say that the next big war will be fought over water...

So here's what fracking does... It takes that water, mixes it with a bunch of secret chemicals and pumps it way deep down in the ground where most of the Earth's fresh (non-salt) water hides... Tis is playing with fire...

As for Keystone??? I've already express why it is stupid for the US... Yes, good for Canada and China but bad for the US...

But bottom line??? As long as we are talking about BIG gas and oil and "clean" (ha) coal we aren't talking about renewables...

Winner: BIG oil, gas and "clean" coal...

Loser: Everyone else...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 10:00 PM

Wrong, gnu.    You seem to have said problem regarding reading. Please read the thread again.

He suggested fracking as an alternative to XL; wanted to know if we who oppose XL also oppose fracking.

So he seems to contradict himself.

To clear the air it is reasonable to ask him for a straight answer as to if he opposes fracking or not.

No surprise however that he has somehow not found time to give a straight answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:42 PM

Here Don goes again, spouting spin again.. made up stuff, and calls it some sort of 'breaking news revelation'..I don't know what he calls it...but if he can't find a fact, he'll report nonsense, and try to create an impression completely void of logic, truth or any sense of reality!...Ummm.. now we know what he did in his 'news media days'. If they don't report real news, they make it up, and try to give the impression that it is news....as long as it delivers the desired effect....even if it's all shit.
Somethings never change.....

Now back to the real topic....we all know that oil has environmental issues...and all the products that is made out of it, seem to not be very bio-degradable,...so we bitch, piss and moan on our computers MADE OF PLASTIC...which is quite suitable, being as most of the whiners, who piss and moan the loudest, are all pretty plastic themselves!!...that being said, and as I've said before, the environmental issues that halted the domestic drilling was NOT because of the environmental outcry, or caribou, or spotted owls, or stinky air...that was the cover story, for the Kissinger deal, under Carter...and fuel for the 'right' to piss and moan and whine at the 'liberals'..which they did. The Mid-East in turmoil is about the oil, but not to control the Mid-east oil...but to make it completely expedient to HAVE to DRILL here...it's all bullshit, like about everything else in politics.. I don't have a say..you don't have a say. The massive corporate/government corruption machine is going to do what they want, regardless of any benefit for anyone else but themselves, their cronies and lackeys...What is so hard to understand?
We have a facade of a 'liberal' President, and the only people buying his act, are rather shallow...but well meaning(sometimes) folks, who have been blinded by two things....thinking that voting for the first black man was a very hip liberal thing to do, and those who are stupid enough to not recognize that the Democraps and Repugnicunts, are bought lock, stock and barrel by the mega corporations and banks, who use the two party system to get exactly what they want..while throwing out the bones and scraps to their dedicated devotees...who actually think there is a difference....There is NO difference..only taking turns at progressing toward a totalitarian state...in which WE will be TOLD what the issues are to be..so we can argue about them, and therefore think we're 'involved'!
What a crock of shit!
Just look at where we've come to...and neither party's rank and file are happy...even though they have each had their turn at rooting for 'their' side....but throw cosmetic tidbits!!
Are we better off than we were 4....6...8...12...20 years ago????...as both sides take turns at shredding our Constitution, and 're-interpreting' it out of existence!
Just stop, and think about it..not from the 'right' or the 'left' points of view..just take a realistic, calm moment...and check it out.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 09:19 AM

Me thinks that GfinS needs a Betty Ford intervention... I mean, Martha Stewart could be on TV talking about her recipe for chocolate chip cookies and poor GfinS would have to twist it into yet another Obama-hate rant...

Between those rants and the "Both Sides Shuffle" (pick your key) this is like the proverbial stuck record...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 10:47 AM

Well, Bobert..that was an in depth analysis,and great counter argument...but your response was about par for the course, of vacant 'so-called liberal' rant.....NOTHING!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM

Glad you appreciated it, GfinS...

The arguments have all been made... The science is in... The risks are known... The politics are being controlled by the major polluters... In other words...

...normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 12:33 PM

"Just stop, and think about it..not from the 'right' or the 'left' points of view..just take a realistic, calm moment...and check it out."

Well said, GfS.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 02:08 PM

Off the topic, but since Goofball feels impelled to lie about me yet again, let me set the record straight.

When I was news director at KORD in Pasco, Washington, I had nothing to do with the national news. That all came in on a feed from the ABC radio network, of which KORD was an affiliate. I was responsible for assembling and reporting the local news, and in my tenure in that position, there was little or no local political news for me to report. There was a fair amount of local news available, too much to broadcast it all, so it was my job as news director to determine what the listeners would be most interested in hearing.

And I was answerable to the station manager, so that obviated any tinkering or slanting of the news on my part, even if I had wanted to. And there was no reason for me to want to.

My other duties consisted of several hours a day as a disc jockey, and spending some time in the production room taping commercials and public service announcements.

My broadcasting job in Seattle was as an announcer at a classical music station, play (obviously) classical music, most of which the program director selected, but some of which I was free to choose myself. I read about five minutes of news at the top of the hour, every two hours, but I didn't write that myself, I read what came in on the UPI and AP teletypes, which was what I was supposed to do.

Prior to my getting my first radio job, I took an eight month training course at a broadcasting school in Seattle, during which we took classes in all aspects of being a radio or television announcer, including how to read a news story prior to airing and check it for general bullshit content.

And I haven't forgotten those skills.

Goofball, your above screed is merely another example of you taking things I have posted about myself and twisting them in an effort to make me look bad.

In addition to being a clueless sod, Goofball, you are, as I have said before, a LIAR! And you're not even a good liar.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: pdq
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 02:31 PM

As usual, Propaganda Minister Firth has posted 100% personal attack, 0% discussion of the thread topic.

Surely he will say that is entirely the fault of the person he is attacking.

In addition "Music" and "BS", perhaps we should have another category just for personal attacks so we can get that pollution out of the other categories and perhaps have a civilized discussion once in a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 02:35 PM

Pdq, you've got the wrong end of the stick. The above post is a response to Goofball's personal attack on me.

DO learn to read!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 03:12 PM

Here's the real deal... The Keystone supporters have never made a case to the American public as to why it is needed... They have, however, insisted that it is needed and they have called in their heavy hitters to push the thing down our throats...

If they can't explain their case other than that want it then that alone makes you wonder if they have a case to be made...

Lot's of folks have brought up the risks... Lots of people have brought up the fact that other than producing some temporary jobs what is the benefit for the US...

Is it asking too much of Big Oil to answer the hard questions... This all reminds me of the Iraq War... Lots of misinformation and noise but not much truth...

I've asked at least a half a dozen questions about the pipeline here and here we are pushing 200 posts with no answers to any of them...

So, for anyone willing to stand up and be counted, will you please address the questions that have been asked???

If not then than speaks volumes about the need for this pipeline...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 05:15 PM

Bobert, these answers may be insufficient (so much garbage in this thread that the question is lost). None is clear-cut.
1. Predictions that the U.S. will need more energy for industry and personal use than will be available.
2. Sources of energy needed for growth-
a Imports
b Fracking and development of difficult oil sources
c Greater dependence on coal reserves
d Development of wind, water, solar energy sources as replacement formined natural resources, and consequent reduction of greenhouse gases, chemical waste, etc.
e Reduction in use of energy in the home and industry

I think all of us would prefer d, but it will take 50 years to develop the infrastructure. Government needs to push on this, but getting the money and public acceptance is difficult. We would have to stop involvement in senseless wars, for one.

To be overcome here are the costs (admitedly short-term) to install and operate the infrastructure, training the workplace to operate the new infrastructure, the long-term lead-in time, a divided Congress whose members push local concerns without regard to the whole, public ignorance, general inertia.

Blaming oil, coal, chemical and hardware industries misrepresents the situation, since much of the research into renewable energy is done in the laboratories of these same industries, many of whom have a relationship with university researchers. Remember, their object is to provide dividends, investment funds, goods, employment, amenities to us (shareholders, employees, public as a whole). PROFIT is the object, the source is immaterial.

Which would you rather have- a cheap source of imported petroleum, or a landscape degraded by fracking and other methods that tear up land and resources?
The oil sands bitumens are already being imported and used in U.S. refineries through a system of pipelines. Lost in all the media mis-information is the fact that the pipeline is in operation, a good percentage of U.S. imports are from the oil sands; the proposal before the government concerns partial replacement by more direct lines, and increased refinery through-put on the Gulf Coast of increased volumes (Please look at the maps- pipelines already cross parts of the Ogalalla, the extension proposed will have even less overlay).

I don't think it is necessary here to go into increase of coal mining. Like fracking, it destroy too much.

Reduction in use of energy stands little chance of being approved.
We like the privacy of our cars, warm houses and air-conditioning, Hawaiian holidays, etc.

A thread hewing to the topic of energy replacement would perhaps be better than more digression to the present one, but efficient thought processes are unknown to mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: gnu
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 06:11 PM

ect: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Ron Davies - PM
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 10:00 PM
******************************************************

I believe his answer was sufficient. If that was the actual question with supporting explanation at the time it was asked, perhaps it would have been addressed. Now, I don't see that it needs to be addressed as I believe it was answered fully in either case.

I think a big "fuck off' is in order unless someone has the good manners to debate and question without all the vague and twisting innuendo and bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 06:31 PM

Okay, Q... I understand what you are saying...

Here are several questions that I have asked that still need answers...

1. We are told by pdq that about 7% of the total material piped southward thru the US... When I asked what he proposed doing with the other 93% of the material he stated that it could be used to build roads... Okay, let's say it can... So here you have millions of metric tons of by-product to build roads... How are we going to get it all to where it can be used??? Put it in train cars??? Move it hundreds, perhaps thousands of miles (at what expense?) to where it can be used??? How much additional energy is this going to use??? Maybe as much as we create to begin with...

2. I don't buy into the 50 year plan... Heck, we went to the moon in 8 years after Kennedy proposed doing it...

3. I don't buy that we are getting the entire story... I think we are getting a story from those who are in business to lead US toward their products...

4. We are not having the conversations we should be having about reducing our consumption... We should be asking why it is that when we talk about renew-ables that Big Oil shouts US down??? Why can't we have that conversation...

5. We are still commuting... Why is mass transit the enemy of Big Oil... What can we do to change that conversation??? BTW, it isn't even a conversation... It is a shout down by Big Oil...

6. Why do the Keystone people make statements about leaks which are sugar-coated??? The University of Kansas has done a study on the pipeline that says that Keystone will suffer 10 times more leaks than Keystone says will occur...

7. Who pays when there is a major spill that Keystone says will never happen??? No, I'll venture a guess... The tax payers will...

8. What happens if the unthinkable happens and an entire city of region's drinking water is poisoned??? Who pays to more millions of people or to ship in clean water???

(Those are just few adult & reasonable questions I think we all have a right to ask...)

9. Why are we being stone-walled???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: pdq
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 07:14 PM

"...We are told by pdq that about 7% of the total material piped southward thru the US..."


Oh, for Christ's sake.

I said that poor quality crude, such as the crud we buy from Venezuela, produces only about 7% gasoline unless processed by the realitive expensive catalytic cracking system.

Our finest oil in the US has been largely depleted so we must accept oil that is relatively poor quality.

Canadian tar sands oil has a lot of sediment. But so what. The oil engineers in Canada and the US are the best in the world. They can deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 07:31 PM

So then, pdq, maybe you can address the rest of the question about the by-products???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: pdq
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 07:51 PM

First, you claimed I used the 7% fiure in connection with the Canadian pipeline. I did not.

Second, the term "by-product" refers to something that is either unwanted, unexpected or unuseable.

There is little "by-product" with crude oil when treated the way we do in the US..

We make plastics, medicines, run our cars and heat our houses. After that, we make mcaddam and pave the roads.

I assume the Canadian tar sands oil will have the sediment removed and the rest processed just like any other crude oil.

Haw much is waste? Q should know if he is inclined to answer your question.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 07:55 PM

So, pdq, what happened to making roads outta the stuff???

Those were your words???

How much stuff???

How to transport stuff???

Hey, I ain't making the "roads" thing up... Now it's like you never said it??? It's here somewhere... No???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 08:17 PM

If anyone still needs to have a look at how much this man understands about the 'business' of oil and his concern for this place we all call home, please read and then re-read the post referred to here:


Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Q
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 05:15 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 08:25 PM

Well, yeah, brucie... Q hit it pretty good there but...

...in saying what he said (which was 100% spot on) it doesn't move us any closer to seein' where Keystone is a good idea and that is what we are talking about here...

And, of course, will Obama be bullied into approving the next and most dangerous chapter...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 08:57 PM

Q wasn't pretty much spot on, Bobert, he nailed it.

The issue (nailed by Q) is this:

"Reduction in use of energy stands little chance of being approved.
We like the privacy of our cars, warm houses and air-conditioning, Hawaiian holidays, etc."

There will be no more reduction soon. Choices will be made by governments, often to the detriment of people. Oil and all it entails will be at the same level as food. We all 'need' it, but to what degree? Do we need it more than the kid down the block? Do we drop our standard of living so someone else can live?

There are options we can choose in what Q said. The only remaining questions are which options, and which are more important to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 09:07 PM

The problem I have is that the conversation is being led by Dick Cheney's boys and not...

...urban planners, environmentalists, folks who understand re-newables, scientists, Green-Peace, etc...

If we aren't given #B then, hey, we pick #A...

Q knows that... I know that... That is a lot about this discussion...

Why is it that we are being ram-rodded here??? Seriously...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 10:00 PM

Bobert, you are raising several points that need response. A little at a time, otherwise we will be covering too much at a time.

Pipelines: The real question should concern the pipeline grid as a whole, not just one- Keystone- which is already mostly operational.

Pipelines have been built across the country without any oversight. Each state has allowed lines that serve local or regional needs without regard to the needs of neighbor states or the country as a whole, and in many cases with little consideration except expediency. Competing companies serve their own immediate markets but mergers are bringing some of this together. Oversight? Needed, but there are constitutional problems, political agendas and personal desires in the way.
The pipeline grid has developed without overall design specifications. Some lines are inadequately engineered, others are old and in need of replacement, some duplicate each other, some are designed to carry one type of product rather than a variety of batched products efficiently.

Putting together worst case scenarios about this hodgepodge grid as an objection to a modern batched line, as has been done, does not help. Pipelines are the most efficient overland bulk transport method for petroleum and chemical products.

Petroleum transported in pipelines. Very little is good only for road metal. Many chemical products that go into our plastics are derived from heavy petroleum products, in fact the light paraffinic crudes are less useful in many applications.

Canadian oil sands bitumens are upgraded on site, so no unusable product is put into the pipelines.   

The Kansas study is based on the worst case scenarios of the oldest and worst lines in the country. It has little applicability to modern barched lines. The points made by the authors have been ludicrously oversimplified.

Tired tonight. Bobert raised other points that need discussion. Maybe tomorrow. On his side is the fact that there is a complete lack of any effort toward the development of government policies that encourage renewable, efficient energy, or even to discuss the problems that will be involved in a gradual changeover (there are many, including education and restructuring of the workforce).

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 10:23 PM

Did you ever think you might be ignoring the thoughts of a good man? You are forcing me into a position of agreeing with Q. He likes Harper. I don't. That said, he has stated the best over-all view of our predicament I have ever read. Unless we face a few facts real soon we are fucked as a planet.

About 40 years ago I was in the company of a very bright [brilliant] engineer and very bright [brilliant] physicist. They are still my friends today. (How bright? One with a friend of his did the mathematical calculations that predicted the existence of black holes, and the other worked out why we spent seven days and nights in the Sierra Nevadas with less than a quart of grass and came out with much less than a pint. He incidentally discovered why our view of things is occasionally skewed. Think muons and time here. (Muons were discovered later.) Between them they discovered why solar energy had problems: it would have required more available copper than existed on the planet to light the city of LA.

The world has to 'work', but when we think that, we have to understand what that means. If we see it as an organism, it must be fed and warmed, at least to the degree it can reproduce. If we take away either of the two, that's it--doesn't matter which--that's it.

Given that neither can be done away with, we not only need both, but we also require both. Ipso facto, or in Montrealese, that's it, that's all.

Anyway, regardless of the politics of all this, there remains the reality. It is this: we keep the status quo and accept that at least some percentage of the world will have to stop consuming [die] or we reduce our consumption. In the parlance, that's it, that's all.

Now, fuck Cheney and all that, who ya gonna believe? The banks or Q?

The few bucks I have are on Q. TI, TA.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 10:26 PM

Cross posted, Q. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 05:57 AM

Don Frothing: "Off the topic, but, Off the topic, but Off the topic, but..."

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 08:51 AM

I appreciate Q's knowledge, brucie, and I'm not disagreeing with him... I think we are on the same page on this issue... We each believe that there are lots of questions that are being ignored...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:58 AM

Sorry, Bobert. Probably me misreading the situation. The topic itself leads to emotional responses because what is really at stake is our existence as humane, compassionate beings. I am not attacking you because come the end of the day I know where your heart's at.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 12:47 PM

Well, well, well (yes, intended; you'll see)... it appears the following snippet from an email I just read clearly lays the blame for all this crap at Canada's doorstep. The first oil well in the world was -

"... in 1858 when the Canadian entrepreneur James Miller Williams (1818-1890) (Fig. 1) drilled and successfully produced oil in the township of Enniskillen be- tween Lake Erie and Lake Huron near the town later named Oil Springs in what is now Southwest Ontario."

Ahhh... sorry about that, eh.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 01:01 PM

Yep, a Canadian first, but Oil City, PA, quickly followed.
Before oil wells, however, tar deposits were mined for thousands of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 06:54 PM

200!...and the deal is still too obvious...

GfS