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Potential Document Records bootlegs?

GUEST,Kegan Mahno 28 Feb 13 - 02:21 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 28 Feb 13 - 06:15 AM
GUEST 28 Feb 13 - 02:23 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 28 Feb 13 - 04:32 PM
GUEST 28 Feb 13 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Kegan Mahon 04 Mar 13 - 08:05 PM
dick greenhaus 05 Mar 13 - 09:21 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 13 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 19 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM
GUEST 14 Jul 13 - 12:51 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 14 Jul 13 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 14 Jul 13 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 14 Jul 13 - 10:41 AM
Thomas Stern 14 Jul 13 - 05:18 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 14 Jul 13 - 10:25 PM
GUEST 21 Aug 13 - 06:39 PM
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Subject: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST,Kegan Mahno
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 02:21 AM

I have a large collection of Document's 8000 series, which I primarily purchased from Amazon's marketplace as well as the label's website.

I have a sinking suspicion some of my albums are counterfeit, whether the original seller(s) realized it or not:

Some of the titles possess a different font size or cover detailing than others (on one of the CDs, the small white box showing the DOC8xx catalogue number isn't even, it's crooked). Other titles use a skinnier font whereas other titles have thicker, darker fonts.

Some of the CDs have a brighter rainbow-prism than others, when held to the light.
---> What color should the disc appear to be when examined under lights?

I know for a fact that one of my Grayson & Whitter albums is a fake, because the tray paper is too thin, and it folded a little in the case when I dropped it once, and the disc has a white paper label.

I'm just wondering what to look for, how to tell which of these are fakes, and possibly who to contact if bootlegs are uncovered.

Thanks, everybody! Hope to donate soon when I'm flush again.


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 06:15 AM

The place to start would be with Document themselves. If these are less than professionally finished then they aren't Documents. I'd also suggest contacting Amazon itself, but how much notice they would take is another matter.

If these really are bootlegs, then I'd say it's quite possible that they are on CDR, rather than CD. That means they may well deteriorate and become unplayable, dependent on the quality of the CDR. For safety's sake, I suggest that you copy them to hard disk immediately.


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 02:23 PM

I have burnt them to MP3 throughout the years (started when I was a boy in about '98) but very recently have decided to convert all of my albums to lossless FLAC and was reminded of the issue as I reexamined the discs.

By profesionally-finished, I assume you mean the discs should be silver?

Awhile ago, I contacted Document directly, but received no response to my email (I'll simply resend it if I still have it); I remember seeing something ONCE on the website mentioning possible counterfeits, but I can't find the article any longer (?)

Thanks for your help, Fred!


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:32 PM

See this note on their facebook page: Document Records.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 06:35 PM

Thanks, Mick! I have also emailed them, so I hope to see this resolved soon. It only bothers me because I realize what an effort it took to amass these CDs, on both the part of the label and my part as the collector. Fifteen years of my life, housed in one CD carrying case. It just blows my mind.


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST,Kegan Mahon
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 08:05 PM

In re-examining my albums, I have discovered TEN illegal copies; sellers were venerablemsic, DeepDiscountDvd, and Warehouse_Deals, all on Amazon.com

I am still awaiting an email reply from Document Records, who I have not yet heard back from regarding my issue. The only thing they told me on Facebook was to be wary of 3rd-party sellers and to pay more by ordering through the label website - at least then I'd be assured of legitimacy.


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:21 AM

If you're in the UK, just buy directly from Document. In the US, CAMSCO is a good source for anything in the Document catalog---we buy directly from them.


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 01:25 PM

I'll look into Camsco, thanks Dick!

Rec'vd no response from Document regarding this issue (!) so I'm just swapping out my copies from Amazon. I make enough purchases, and I'm also a seller, so I don't feel too badly doing this - I paid new CD prices for all of the albums I found trouble with, so I'm just making sure I do in fact get my money's worth.

Should my CDs be white-label (assumed BOOTLEG) or silvery-labeled?

Many of the CDs are silver with black font, but the Document logo looks fuzzy on it, and some of the text on one of the discs is wearing off, so here to, I was unsure whether or not it was a bootleg.

I'll link to pics when I get my mobile back from repair.

Thanks again!


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM

I haven't bought Document product for years vinyl or CD, not only was the artwork "fuzzy" usually blown up copies of old printed photographs but the sound very often could also be described as "fuzzy" sounding like copies of bad tape copies. Surely it isn't this material that is being bootlegged.
I should point out that the material to which I refer was coming out of Austria and cannot comment on the present issues from the U.K. I would hope that the current owner has obtained his "original" recordings from a better source.
I read somewhere recently that some pop musician in the US is re-issuing material from the Document label on Vinyl the first being a Charlie Patton album. Does he not know that all of Patton's material is already available from several sources? I am puzzled.

Hoot


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 12:51 AM

@Hootenanny,

I believe the artist to be Jack White of the White Stripes: http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/mar/07/jack-white-blues-artists

May I inquire as to which label you might obtain your material through, if not Document?


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 06:51 AM

If you are referring to Patton CD's; Yazoo, Revenant, JSP and others.
The Revenant covers just about everything he recorded. Admittedly The Revenant is expensive but by comparison the JSP is dirt cheap.

If you are referring to Vinyl and blues in general; Origin Jazz Library, Mamlish, Yazoo, Flyright, Blues Classics, Arhoolie, Biograph, P-Vine, Magpie, Herwin, Down with the Game etc etc. Some of these labels are defunct but the material is still available on CD and on second hand vinyl.

So vinyl is not easily available but virtually everything in the blues genre is available on CD now and much of it at reasonable prices. If you doubt that then go on line and look for Red Lick Records a mail order company in Wales. They have masses of the stuff and a reliable service. Down Home Music in California would be the place to go if you live Stateside.

Happy (hopefully inexpensive) Hunting.
Hoot


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 09:14 AM

The JSP is cheap only because they ripped the entire set from Revenant, and then had the cheek to claim that their set had been remastered by "The Masked Marvel".

IMO, the Revenant is too much of a labour of self indulgence and it includes far too much superfluous material; and is too costly for the average blues fan.

I don't know what the situation is now. However, when I reviewed it some 11 years ago there were several other Patton anthologies on the market. If I were buying now I'd probably go for one of those.

But don't buy the JSP. Over the years, they acquired an unsavoury reputation for lifting stuff which other reissue companies had remastered, without offering payment or even asking their permission. Then of course, with no remastering costs to pay for, they were able to undercut these self same companies by a very wide margin.


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 10:41 AM

Fred, I am in no way promoting JSP, I have my own reasons for definitely not promoting them over and above any other label issuing non-cop material. But they are not alone. How many of the people that issue this material have access to some of the rare discs that are contained therein. The original post on this thread referred to Document. I am sure that you must have heard some of those. Do you think they were re-mastered from originals?
Do you know for certain that JSP's material was taken from Revenant? I am pretty sure that I could have supplied a lot of the material from my vinyl collection or earlier CD's and in some cases 78's. Whether you agree with it or not it is virtually impossible now to protect anything audio or visual in this digital world. I have been ripped off by one or two pirates.
Regarding the Revenant issue I agree with what you say so much over the top bullshit when all you require is the music and a few footnotes.

Hoot


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 05:18 PM

I received the e-mail copied below last year in response to a query
regarding CD-R rather than pressed CD's of Document releases.
Given the brevity, one wonders what Document is actually
doing - perhaps they have licensed certain retailers to create
cd-r copies rather than supplying pressed cd's.
I do not like cd-r, since my experience is that they deteriorate
and become unplayable over time. They can NOT be used in inhospitable environments - e.g. automibile in summer.
Amazon seems to indicate which products are cd-r, but their 3rd party sellers don't. Many other retail sources, e-bay etc. do NOT. I think it should be required as part of truth in labeling.

Document was never noted for high quality transfers. Their strength was in providing complete chronological transfers of almost all pre-war blues recordings. Tracks which were unavailable or unknown, but were later found were issued in their "TOO LATE" compilations.
IIRC, the new owners of Document were going to re-edit their
discs to insert the previously missing tracks. I don't think that
actually happened. ????

Yazoo did a much better job on sound quality, but usually offered only limited compilations rather than everything.

The REVENANT patton box is aimed at obsessive collectors - not for
someone who simply wants a representative collection of Patton, or even his complete or nearly complete recordings which have been issued by Document, P-vine, Yazoo, Origin etc.

We live in an age of incredible abundance of recordings going back to the dawn of sound recording, priced to fit almost any budget. As the CD format declines in availability, much will be available as downloads. Enjoy them while you can.

Best wishes, Thomas.

-----Original Message-----
From: colin [mailto:colin@document-records.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 6:38 AM
To:
Subject: document cd,s


Hi Thomas your friend is correct items that are not really big movers will be Created by CDr

Cheers
alex


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 10:25 PM

THEY PLAY?



Do They bring You JOY?



Sincerely,
Gargoyles


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Subject: RE: Potential Document Records bootlegs?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 06:39 PM

reading all of your posts, thank you. My main concern ain't the blues releases, but the 8000 series. I totally understand regarding ripped off sets; I had a few JSP sets, before I sold them, but when it came to completeness, I sought out Document because I had such a large numunnecessaryber of discs and wanted to keep the issues in order. I also use Bear Family (as in the case of the Dixon Brothers releases).

I understand that obscurer artists get CDR releases due to their niche markets...in answer to Gargoyles query, I'm happy, becaall music does seem to play...I just don't want to be saddled with unnecessarily-burnt discs I've been collecting for about 15 years (I'm 23); the preservation and collection of the audio in the         best. (easily-listenable) condition means the world to me- I know there are Document discs with possibly lower quality, but I've come to not mind a little static so long as the overall output is enjoyable.

Thanks all!
Kegan


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