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BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.

Jim Dixon 01 Mar 13 - 05:31 PM
Greg F. 01 Mar 13 - 05:49 PM
ranger1 01 Mar 13 - 06:47 PM
Rapparee 01 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM
Rog Peek 01 Mar 13 - 07:29 PM
Elmore 01 Mar 13 - 07:48 PM
The Sandman 01 Mar 13 - 07:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Mar 13 - 08:21 PM
gnu 01 Mar 13 - 09:17 PM
ChanteyLass 01 Mar 13 - 09:46 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Mar 13 - 11:55 PM
Greg F. 02 Mar 13 - 09:59 AM
Greg F. 02 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM
Elmore 02 Mar 13 - 10:01 AM
SINSULL 02 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,concerened 02 Mar 13 - 11:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 02 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM
Bobert 02 Mar 13 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Stim 02 Mar 13 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 02 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Stim 02 Mar 13 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 02 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Stim 02 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 13 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 02 Mar 13 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Stim 02 Mar 13 - 07:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM
Stringsinger 03 Mar 13 - 02:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Mar 13 - 02:34 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 13 - 08:09 PM
GUEST,Stim 03 Mar 13 - 10:01 PM
GUEST,JTT 04 Mar 13 - 12:05 AM
GUEST 04 Mar 13 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,concerened 04 Mar 13 - 08:50 AM
Leadfingers 04 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM
Mark Ross 04 Mar 13 - 02:38 PM
Jim Dixon 04 Mar 13 - 07:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Mar 13 - 08:47 PM
GUEST,concerned 05 Mar 13 - 04:13 AM
Leadfingers 05 Mar 13 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,corncerend 05 Mar 13 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,concerened 05 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Stim 05 Mar 13 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,concerened 06 Mar 13 - 07:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Stim 06 Mar 13 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Stim 06 Mar 13 - 11:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Stim 06 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,Stim 06 Mar 13 - 03:24 PM
Greg F. 06 Mar 13 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Stim 06 Mar 13 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,concerned 07 Mar 13 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,concerened 07 Mar 13 - 07:15 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 13 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Stim 07 Mar 13 - 08:58 AM
Jim Dixon 07 Mar 13 - 09:18 AM
Greg F. 07 Mar 13 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,concerened 07 Mar 13 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Stim 07 Mar 13 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,Stim 07 Mar 13 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,wobbly 07 Mar 13 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,wobbly 07 Mar 13 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Stim 07 Mar 13 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,wobbly 07 Mar 13 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Stim 07 Mar 13 - 02:42 PM
Stringsinger 07 Mar 13 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,concerend 07 Mar 13 - 08:43 PM
GUEST,Stim 08 Mar 13 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,van 08 Mar 13 - 04:39 PM
Mooh 09 Mar 13 - 10:13 AM

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Subject: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:31 PM

I mainly knew about Industrial Workers of the World from hearing Utah Phillips talk about them. Joe Hill was a member, too. I had no idea they would be active in my area. Turns out my son and his coworkers have organized and affiliated themselves with IWW. Today they decided to go on strike. Here are some articles from the IWW web site:

Twin Cities Non-Profit Workers Announce IWW Membership, Enter Negotiations With Management.

(My son is the tall guy in the back looking to the left. It figures.)

BREAKING: Non-Profit Workers Go On Strike After Negotiations Fail


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:49 PM

Good on him! I send my congratulations.

-----------

There Is Power in a Union
By Joe Hill


Would you have freedom from wage slavery,
Then join in the grand Industrial band;
Would you from mis'ry and hunger be free,
Then come! Do your share, like a man.

         CHORUS:
         There is pow'r, there is pow'r
         In a band of workingmen.
         When they stand hand in hand,
         That's a pow'r, that's a pow'r
         That must rule in every land --
         One Industrial Union Grand.

Would you have mansions of gold in the sky,
And live in a shack, way in the back?
Would you have wings up in heaven to fly,
And starve here with rags on your back?

If you've had "nuff" of "the blood of the lamb,"
Then join in the grand Industrial band;
If, for a change, you would have eggs and ham.
Then come! Do your share, like a man.

If you like sluggers to beat off your head,
Then don't organize, all unions despise,
If you want nothing before you are dead,
Shake hands with your boss and look wise.

Come, all ye workers, from every land,
Come join in the grand Industrial band.
Then we our share of this earth shall demand.
Come on! Do your share, like a man.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: ranger1
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:47 PM

I was never tempted to join a union until I did some seasonal work for Target this past holiday season and 45 minutes of the orientation was spent on an anti-union propaganda video. Now don't get me wrong, Target treats their employees pretty well, I just don't like having propaganda and scare tactics shoved in my face.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM

Good for him! He's standing up for what he believes in.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Rog Peek
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:29 PM

Yes, well done indeed!

Rog


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Elmore
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:48 PM

Excellent.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:55 PM

congratulations


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:21 PM

"I was never tempted to join a union"... To me that's a strange way of putting it. I know there are some people, even a lot of people who see it that way - but in every job I've ever done finding out what union I should belong to has been one of the first things to find out, and I'd be ashamed and embarrassed not to belong to it.

Congratulations to your son, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: gnu
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 09:17 PM

Congrats on a fine lad and the father that raised him right.

I want to say a whole lot more but that would just be stuff about what we all know anyway.

Support unions... they support you.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 09:46 PM

I love the red cards! I remember seeing Utah show his at his concerts.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:55 PM

Would he like to organise a UK branch please?


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 09:59 AM

Let me put in a plug for We Shall Be All: A History of the Industrial Workers of the World; Melvin Dubovsky, 1969.
There's also an abridged version edited by Joseph A. McCartin circa 2000.

Excellent book, and the standard history of the IWW.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM

There already is one, Richard. See http://iww.org.uk/


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 10:01 AM

He's busy organizing the angels.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM

McGrath,
I have never worked a job where a union membership was available. I suspect that was what Tami was thinking as well.
Trade unions abound; government workers unions abound. But I have always worked in sales for companies who follow municipal hiring laws. That has been protection enough or someone would have tried to organize. Never even been approached.
Mary, who comes from generations of union workers.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 11:33 AM

"can he organise a uk branch please"whats wrong with organising one yersell if you are thst concerened? Thats the trouble aint it? Always some one elses job..Joe Hill would turn over in his grave.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM

If there's no union in place there should be. Which means joining a relevant union and trying to recruit others. Which of course might identify that the management is anti-union, which is the kind of job where you really need a union.

The same laws that give people a right not to belong to a union give a right to union membership. In any job. There are some countries which don't have that, and some employers who break the law blatantly. Everybody has a duty to fight that if they come across it, even if they don't want to join a union themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

congratulations on having a thoughtful and principled son. in the uk anyway everyone has a right to join a union - even if the employer does not approve or recognise it. it is vital to do so even if only for legal representation when needed if you suffer injury or discrimanation. but good for your son in taking it further- as we all should -and to make your voice heard.(most) bosses -certainly of bigger companies- won't give you fair treatment, it has to be fought for. it's the nature of capitalism that the shareholders have to prosper at the expense of the workers.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 01:28 PM

I love to see youngin's take up the struggle... It's heartwarming...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 01:31 PM

I understand the frustration that these well-educated, well-intentioned and socially and economically mobile young people have. Deal is that they have choices that the hungry people they have decided not to feed don't have.

The problem here is bad management, and, unfortunately, you can't force bad managers to make good decisions, even if you have a little red songbook....


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM

we can't always get what we want, stim - but sometimes, sometimes we get what we need.

(you can't force bad managers to make good decisions) - we won't if we don't try, that's for sure. and the occasional victory is good for the soul.

we just had a successful campaign to force the cumbria council to turn down a government application (ironically here, union-backed) to test for a nuclear dump site in the lake district - the most beautiful part of england and geographically one of the least stable.

we're still ruled by a load of lying, thieving, psychopaths mind you....


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 02:28 PM

That's good. Even better than good, achmelvitch. You stopped something terrible from happening. Sadly, in this world, a lot of times, nobody steps up to do that. Even more sadly, a lot of other times, the people who step up don't have a workable strategy, and they lose.

I develop and manage strategic plans, originally in the corporate sector, but now, for small, mission-oriented non-profits. When I read the article Jim linked to above, I knew immediately what the problems were. Unfortunately, my experience has been that I am usually far from the first person to see the problems, and that I am not going to have any more luck changing things than the ones who came before me.

In a philosophical mood, I would point out that the whole "protest/strike" thing is based in a patriarchial "Judeo/Christian" model that presumes that there is a higher authority to whom we can alway appeal for justice. I put the Judeo-Christian in quotes, though, because the truth comes from the popular paraphrase of
Rabbi Hillel, which, approximately is, "If not now, when, if not me, who?"


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM

cheers stim - i do like your closing quote there. when it comes to workable strategies, i'm not sure - i like the kick it up in the air and see what happens thing sometimes (though that has been a disaster in iraq!) and sometimes a lot of energy and idealism can be dissipated in meetings and consultations.

near where i live, on the solway coast, there is the start of a railway bridge that used to link cumbria to scotland (about 1 and a half miles) it's long since fallen down -there was trouble with the scots walking across to take advantage of the more liberal english licensing laws, apparently) anyway, over the years i have often walked along what remains of the bridge - it's a great spot for birdwatching. last year i went up there again and couldn't get down the (start of the) bridge as it was all overgrown with thick gorse and brambles. i was annoyed and went walking elsewhere.

then in december i got up one morning, took a small handsaw and some secauteurs and started cutting my way down the bridge. after about 4 days of hard work i had cut a new footpath and sat at the end overlooking the estuary to scotland,on a beautiful day (in february -weird) with sandwiches and a good bottle of beer, feeling very smug with myself - your 'if not now, when - if not me, who?' -feels very appropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM

It sounds like a wonderful place to be. The beer and the sandwich sound good, too!


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 04:21 PM

"Abrahamic" perhaps, rather than "Judeo-Christian", to include the third branch, Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 04:26 PM

in the pedantic tradition i should point out that when the bridge was in use it was between cumberland (not cumbria) and scotland


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:17 PM

Not according to the Quran, McGrath. "Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (Sura 112:1-4, Yusuf Ali).


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM

You think that means that God isn't seen as being in charge off everything by Muslims? I don't think that suggestion would go down too well with most Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 02:06 PM

The IWW served an organizing function in its day to promote international unionism by rank and file unskilled workers and not just the guild unions. This is probably why it has stayed in business for so long, people recognize the role it plays.

It's fitting that many of its parodies have been religious hymns. This says something about organized fundamentalist religion taking an oppressive stand against unions.

This religious oppression goes on behind the scenes as well as a Republican agenda in an attempt to "privatize" America. One could argue who is using who? But they work hand in glove.

Maybe we should all join the Wobblies.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 02:34 PM

...It's fitting that many of its parodies have been religious hymns. This says something about organized fundamentalist religion taking an oppressive stand against unions.

I'd say it says much more about the fact that such hymns were, especially at that time, tunes and words that would have been reliably known by the workers the songs were made for.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 08:09 PM

Granted- to a degree, Kevin. But if you read up on the history of the IWW and the persecution the organization - and other unionization efforts - by organized fundagelical religion including a certain U.S. Roman Catholic bisop, you'll be forced to accept Stringsingers point.

And, to a degree, this anti-union orientation still persists in the U.S. Bible Belt.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 10:01 PM

No, McGrath, it means that Muslims don't, or at least shouldn't think in terms of "God the Father". That's not what God is.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 12:05 AM

Lidl and Aldi have revolutionised shopping in Ireland - cheap prices for high quality. But last week a protest by members of unions outside a Dublin Lidl shop stunned people who had thought that Lidl was a good employer.
Looking for further information, I found this 2007 article in a British paper. There were others. But I thought Aldi might be better.
Unfortunately, local staff told me that Aldi's the same: a requirement to whizz 1,150 items through the till in a specified time, and if you don't, the manager comes and gives out to you; till staff are harassed if they don't insist that customers pack on the packing shelf rather than at the till; staff have a 15-minute lunch break, and anything more comes out of their wages...


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 04:12 AM

Regardless of ones Political Orientation , membership of a Trade Union is a very usful thing , even if its only for the Legal assistabce that a union can offer in event of a work place accuident .
I also feel its 'not polite' to accept all the advantages that a Union has negotiated for the staff an not contribute to Union Funds .


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 08:50 AM

"regardless of ones Political Orientation" well there is a few ten doller words for you!

You have some funny ideas what Trade Unions are aBout dude!!

What we want is more hard line activists in our movement not wishy washy pantywaisters like you "Guest "

In the words of the greatest trade union leader ever, Arthur Scargill "We dont want pound note consciouneses, we want you out on the picket line supporting".
In my words:

We dont want "polite"
We are not at home to "usefull"
We are not going to let down all the brave trade unionists who suffered so others could enjoy the rights they fought for.

ORGANISE
AGITATE
EDUCATE

Thesee should be our watchword and rallying cry.

JOIN THE UNION


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

GUEST , concerned .
If EVERY Trade Unionist was as Hard Left as you I would be extremely concerned about Trade Unionism ! Arthur Scargill has lined his own pockets from NUM membership, so dont quote hime to me .


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Mark Ross
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 02:38 PM

As a Wobbly of 42 years I welcome your son to the One Big Union.

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 07:07 PM

In case anyone wants to follow the story I started this thread with....

FAQ about the Sisters' Camelot Canvass Strike, posted Mar 3.

Striking Non-Profit Workers Walk Out in Response to Surprise Retaliatory Firing, posted Mar 4.

Home page of 'The Organizer' blog
(Right now it just has the same information already posted, but it will probably have updates as they become available.)

I would be interested in hearing your comments about the "retaliatory firing."

By the way, the guy who was "fired" is a good friend of my son. Until recently they played in a band together.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 08:47 PM

The concept of God as father is very much a Christian one rather than a Judeo-Christian one. What all the Abrahamic religions have in common is the concept of God as, to quote Stim, "a higher authority to whom we can always appeal to justice".

Muslims of course see their religion as the authentic continuation of that of Abraham, with Judaism and Christianity as departures from that tradition. Similarly Christians have often seen Islam as a breakaway from Christianity. The three traditions are very entangled, and have a great deal in common.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerned
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:13 AM

I get concerend when I hear your comments leadfingers.I dont see basic Trade Union philophesy as Hard left; whatever that may mean.

Were is your proof king arthur lined his own pockets, are you saying Trade Union officers shouldnt be paid?..nice concept.

Hard left activists? what good has soft left been to any of us.Suppose you'll quote the UDMs shameullfll part in the Great strike?
Or the shamefull behaviour of chappells mob at Wapping as another outstandng example of "moderation"

And not us let forget the TUC's shining example to us all over the years

In the words of the other great trade unionist Ricky Tomlinson;

MY Arse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:40 AM

And Red Robbo was the final nail in Car production at Cowley !
Abd aapart from fourteen years in the RAF I have been a Union Member all my working life , and still AM a member .
I see no reason why Trade Union full time officers should not be paid a fair wage , but cant see any justification in a Retired Ex Union President having a FREE Hame for life at Union expense .


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,corncerend
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:05 AM

You really dont get it Terry do you?

Exactly the point I am making.Anyone can be a member of a Trade Union, old boy, same as any one can vote labour..dont make you an activist.
Again you lot need to read and UNDERSTAND your history, instaed of accepting the gutter press and media and blindly follow their view.

Dereck Robinson was sold out by leadership of his own union the AUEW.Yet another shameful example of spineless Trade Union leadership.

Let us start adressing the real problem, that is only done by direct action.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM

And again you might follow this up before you start casting aspersions on one the trade union movements biggest heroes who, led from the front..were did you lead from Leadfingers? the Naaafi?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2002/may/27/mondaymediasection.politicsandthemedia


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:44 PM

If you read them carefully, McGrath(and not many do) the "Abrahamic" texts all say that if we want peace, justice, etc, we must work it out among ourselves. They do provide some basic guidelines but that's really about it. Unfortunately, many of us never quite learn to color between the lines, and so it goes...


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:20 AM

What has that got to do with the wobblies.?.Thread creep that is all.

Oh..keep on believing in the magical man...he will put it alright...NOT.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM

I'm not clear where you see me as differing from you, Stim, or where you see yourself as differing from me. Not to worry.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM

I'm not clear where you see me as differing from you, Stim, or where you see yourself as differing from me. Not to worry.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:26 AM

Trying to frame a real response to Jim Dixon's question--I've googled everything, and facebooked, etc. This is not a typical labor-management dispute--both Sister's Camelot(who are being struck against) and the Wobblies are part of the Anarchist/Green community. It is a dispute between friends, each group perceiving that the other behaved badly.

SC basically gathers surplus organic foods, prepare them, and distribute meals for free in the lower income neighborhoods to anyone who is hungry. Most of the work is done by volunteers,and the effort is organized as a collective. Interestingly, Shuge Mississippi(Jim's son's friend), who is attempting to organize the canvassers/fundraisers to strike against the collective is also one of the founders of the collective.

It is also worth noting that the canvasser/fundraisers get a large chunk of the money that they raise--one third, and in 2010, that was one third of $177,000--$60,000, with the organization keeping $117,000.

The C/F's have 18 demands, which I can't seem to find on line, only some of which are economic. Most of them, apparently, are not members of the collective, owing to the fact that in order to be a member of the collective, you must be a volunteer. One of the things they want is membership in the collective.

Overall, it looks like Shuge Mississippi is actually a manager who
contracts the C/Fs, and he couldn't get the support in the collective for changes that he wanted made, and he wants to bring the C/Fs into the collective where, as their manager, he will have their support.

It is worth underscoring the fact that as a founder of the collective, he was responsible for making the rule that keeps the C/Fs from becoming members of the collective. In other words, he made up the rules that collective is playing by, and now that things are not coming out his way, he wants to change them.

Anyway, since I can't find the 18 demands, don't know if he is right, and the collective has made bad decisions--collective decision making doesn't always work. I do know that the "Solidarity" means that, for good or ill, once the decisions are made, you stick together.

So basically, I think he was fired for breaking his trust with the collective, and for bringing the Wobblies in to force the collective to change it's decisions.

I think that he shouldn't have gotten the Wobblies involved, because he had as much or more power in the collective as anyone else, so it wasn't really a labor/management issue. I also think that it wasn't the best decision to fire him.

The organization is a very small group of lefties who work for little to nothing to feed and inspire--it's the realization of a shared, self-less vision. Unfortunately, I think that what has happened is more likely to damage or destroy Sister's Camelot.
Once the strike stops the food busses, it's going to take a lot more than just money to get them going again.

PS-I find it extremely ironic that the Wobblies are soliciting food donations for the strikers.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:37 AM

Kevin--I don't disagree with you, I'm just putting too fine a point on it--and, concerened-it took a while, but I did address the issue, though maybe not in the way that agrees with you.

Also, the point that Kevin and I don't disagree on is that "If not me, who?" means that the magic man won't intervene, and it's up to us...

And the message I send out to Shuge Mississippi is that the Wobblies aren't the magic man who will intervene, and you need to work this stuff out with your friends in the collective directly, if it isn't too late...


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 12:22 PM

St Teresa of Avila expressed the same idea when she wrote "Christ has no body now on earth but yours". I am sure you could find some Islamic teacher who has done the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

I am sure it's there in the Quran somewhere--

Meanwhile, here is a link to A Really Good Article about "Sister's Camelot" at the collective's home page. There is also a box on the right side which features their Facebook responses to the strikers.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:24 PM

The collective is starting to get their side of things out there, so here is the Latest Response from Sister's Camelot including the 18 Demands.

I've looked the demands over, and I think that there are a couple good things in there, but overall, the demands would hand control of the fundraising operation to the canvassers, with no accountability to the collective at all.

Also, the collective says that Shuge Mississippi's termination was a result of ongoing problems with him. We, on the outside, have no way of knowing whether that is true or not, but it is possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 05:23 PM

Take the Quran and St. Theresa elsewhere, folks. This is the worst case of thread drift/hijacking I've seen in many a day.

Joel Hagglund is shaking his head....


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:01 PM

I am the only one who's even bothered follow up the details of the action, Greg F, so don't accuse me of hijacking the thread. And you started off on a religious tangent yourself.

So back to the question at hand, what do you think about the Sister's Camelot collective firing Shuge Mississippi?


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerned
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:26 AM

Whats this girls, handbags at twelve paces?

Come, come comrades,,lets have no dissent in the ranks!

This is supposed to be a Wobblie thread, not a theological rant.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:15 AM

What! arent you talkng to each other...bit childish aint it?


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 08:47 AM

Hijacking? Nash drift. Moderate drift is what keeps threads visible so the original discussion can carry on.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 08:58 AM

Cut the the chase, Concerned. This is a thread about the particular IWW action that Jim's son is involved in--I've given my views(based on what info I have been able to find) and there are links to both sides of the issue in this thread --it's the Green Collective vs. the Wobblies. Which side are you on?


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:18 AM

Let me get clarify my question: I don't expect anyone to be able to judge whether the firing was justified in this particular case. I more wanted to know: Have you ever heard of this kind of thing happening in other strike situations? What was the outcome? Can they get away with it?

I mean, even if you knew nothing else about the case, the timing looks awfully suspicious doesn't it? To fire someone on the first day of a strike, and then claim that he has a long history that justifies it?


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:43 AM

Suspicious? You bet. But that's what the exploiting class does for a living, Jim. That's why we need unions.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:11 AM

You bet it is suspiciouse!!

Can they get away with it?...you bet!!

They can do anything they damn well want to do.If you let 'em.

Get over this " why we need unions" like they are some one else. You are the goddamn unions!! And only you.

get over the " quite usefull" as in an insurance scheme.

Get some learning done, learn about the sacrifices ordinary working stiffs have gone through.Dont be like the pantywaisters with their "to left wing" and "ones political persusion" like guest and the psuedo intellectual leadhead, sorry fingers.

It is a war out there. No one gives you anything, certainly not the magical man in the sky.

What side am I on guest stim? Well I do come on the side of the Wobblies.But there again some of you nomarks wouldnt want anything to do with an organisation that i would join.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:16 AM

Firing someone in retaliation for union organizing, at least in principle, can be illegal. However employers are also entitled to fire anyone, at any time, as long it isn't for an illegal reason, and you have to prove that the reason was illegal. And employees can be fired during a strike--look at what happened to the air traffic controllers.

Judging by the comments at the Sister's Camelot site, the members of the collective feel betrayed by Shuge because
they feel that when the collective didn't do what he wanted, rather than supporting their decision, which, as a member of the collective, he was committed to do, he organized his workers to get leverage against the collective.

That's a pretty good reason to toss someone out of the collective, which is essentially what they did. And since, as a member of the collective, he was authorized by the collective to hire canvassing contractors, he is, defacto, out of a job. It's arguable, of course.

Also, since Shuge was a member of the collective, and acted on behalf of the collective when he hired and managed the canvassers, he could be considered to be the employer, not an employee, and, as an employer, his his union recruiting activities are pretty questionable--after all, when the guy that has the power to hire and fire "asks" you to join the union, what do you do?

We haven't even gotten to the question of whether this union legally represents the "strikers" or whether the the strike is a legally constituted strike. There is another question, too, and that is, who do the canvassers actually work for?

All this stuff will have to be considered in whatever resolution efforts follow-there could be binding arbitration, or even lawsuits.

Curiously enough, even though the there are a small number of people involved, and very little money involved in the operation, resolving the issues could take a while, and cost a lot of money.

My question for you is, did Shuge realize, when he chose this course, that the immediate result might be that he would be expelled from the collective and lose his job? And, did he consider that a long term result might be that the collective would be destroyed, and that the conflict that he began had the potential to leave permanent scars in the larger community?

So the answer is, yes, I've heard of this kind of thing happening-in strike situations people can lose their jobs and not get them back.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:55 AM

If you think that Sister's Camelot, which is a Green collective that gathers and prepares surplus organic food and distributes it for free lower income neighborhoods in any way is the "exploiting class" GregF, you haven't bothered to read the links. You neither, concerned--the only people who make any money on this operation are the ones who have gone out on strike. Everyone else works for free.

At the risk of repeating myself, I think that this situation is essentially a difference among friends, and doesn't either merit or benefit from the involvement of the IWW, which I actually once belonged to (but I haven't paid my dues in about 40 years). I am very much afraid that taking the conflict this route will destroy the organization.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,wobbly
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:14 PM

Stim- shugE is not a collective member. You seem to have made this decision at some point, but it is incorrect. There is a collective member and canvass director who has decided not to perform his duties in solidarity with the strikers, his name is Bobby.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,wobbly
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:30 PM

furthermore, your assertion that the only people who make any money are the strikers is incorrect. Most of the collective members are salaried for their work at SC.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:07 PM

Thanks for clarifying. Those salaries are not listed in the IRS 2010 990, which is where I got that info. One of the sites, which I cannot find right now, had a statement that Shuge had been one of the founders of Sister's Camelot, and he was quoted as saying that he had been one of the founders of the collective.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,wobbly
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:24 PM

shugE was not a founder of SC, but was of the collective (long history, unnecessary to this issue), but at some point ceased being on the collective. He still worked for SC, as a canvasser.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:42 PM

Thanks for the clarification. Didn't know that he is no longer in the collective.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:06 PM

I think they had the right idea. Worker-owned businesses and collectives.
"International" was the operative word. The Unions today are mostly co-opted by management such as is the AFL.

I believe that wildcat strikes are a good thing to keep unions honest.

Unfortunately there are the Hoffas to contend with.

However, "Solidarity Forever!"


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 08:43 PM

Crap!Stringsinger. another example of middle class muddied thinking international was never the part of IWW. It was INDUSTRIAL.

Again you apportion blame to "unions" Hoffa was only a part of the Teamsters.Albeit an important part.

Solidarity forever? do not make me laugh; you havent even got a basic grasp of any of that.

You and your ilk would crap yourselves if there was any chance of workers collective, wildcat strikes or anything that could interfere with your Rosy dozy life.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 08:03 AM

Well,"concerend"(or however you spell it today), I think Stringsinger meant that the Industrial Workers of the World had an International mission, "of the World, after all, does mean "international".

Please don't call Stringsinger names(especially those names), you obviously don't know him, or you'd know that he's been singing "Joe Hill" for strikers for a long, long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,van
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 04:39 PM

achmelvich Its a small world we live in even with the aid of computers. i used to go to the Scottish end of that bridge as a youngster.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Mooh
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:13 AM

Congratulations. Union membership is a matter self preservation and of dignity and self respect in my neck of the woods. It is also on the decline.

A firing during a strike smacks of bad faith. Such actions are often recinded as part of the settlement. The union should fight for this, tooth and nail.

I was a Musicians Union member, Service Employee's International Union member, Canadian Auto Workers Union member, and for a few years worked for the SEIU as a rep/negotiator/H&S. Fifteen years or so ago I became self-employed and therefore didn't require a union. Nonetheless, I support my wife, family members, friends, and community in union matters. Besides all those wonderful things unions have provided us over the years, they have softened the blow of plant closings, amagamations, gov't cutbacks, and other menaces to the workers and society.

All the best to your son and his brothers and sisters. Solidarity forever.

Peace. Mooh.


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