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BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.

Jim Dixon 01 Mar 13 - 05:31 PM
Greg F. 01 Mar 13 - 05:49 PM
ranger1 01 Mar 13 - 06:47 PM
Rapparee 01 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM
Rog Peek 01 Mar 13 - 07:29 PM
Elmore 01 Mar 13 - 07:48 PM
The Sandman 01 Mar 13 - 07:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Mar 13 - 08:21 PM
gnu 01 Mar 13 - 09:17 PM
ChanteyLass 01 Mar 13 - 09:46 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Mar 13 - 11:55 PM
Greg F. 02 Mar 13 - 09:59 AM
Greg F. 02 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM
Elmore 02 Mar 13 - 10:01 AM
SINSULL 02 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,concerened 02 Mar 13 - 11:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 02 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM
Bobert 02 Mar 13 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Stim 02 Mar 13 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 02 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Stim 02 Mar 13 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 02 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Stim 02 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 13 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 02 Mar 13 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Stim 02 Mar 13 - 07:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM
Stringsinger 03 Mar 13 - 02:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Mar 13 - 02:34 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 13 - 08:09 PM
GUEST,Stim 03 Mar 13 - 10:01 PM
GUEST,JTT 04 Mar 13 - 12:05 AM
GUEST 04 Mar 13 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,concerened 04 Mar 13 - 08:50 AM
Leadfingers 04 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM
Mark Ross 04 Mar 13 - 02:38 PM
Jim Dixon 04 Mar 13 - 07:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Mar 13 - 08:47 PM
GUEST,concerned 05 Mar 13 - 04:13 AM
Leadfingers 05 Mar 13 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,corncerend 05 Mar 13 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,concerened 05 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Stim 05 Mar 13 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,concerened 06 Mar 13 - 07:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Stim 06 Mar 13 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Stim 06 Mar 13 - 11:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 12:22 PM

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Subject: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:31 PM

I mainly knew about Industrial Workers of the World from hearing Utah Phillips talk about them. Joe Hill was a member, too. I had no idea they would be active in my area. Turns out my son and his coworkers have organized and affiliated themselves with IWW. Today they decided to go on strike. Here are some articles from the IWW web site:

Twin Cities Non-Profit Workers Announce IWW Membership, Enter Negotiations With Management.

(My son is the tall guy in the back looking to the left. It figures.)

BREAKING: Non-Profit Workers Go On Strike After Negotiations Fail


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:49 PM

Good on him! I send my congratulations.

-----------

There Is Power in a Union
By Joe Hill


Would you have freedom from wage slavery,
Then join in the grand Industrial band;
Would you from mis'ry and hunger be free,
Then come! Do your share, like a man.

         CHORUS:
         There is pow'r, there is pow'r
         In a band of workingmen.
         When they stand hand in hand,
         That's a pow'r, that's a pow'r
         That must rule in every land --
         One Industrial Union Grand.

Would you have mansions of gold in the sky,
And live in a shack, way in the back?
Would you have wings up in heaven to fly,
And starve here with rags on your back?

If you've had "nuff" of "the blood of the lamb,"
Then join in the grand Industrial band;
If, for a change, you would have eggs and ham.
Then come! Do your share, like a man.

If you like sluggers to beat off your head,
Then don't organize, all unions despise,
If you want nothing before you are dead,
Shake hands with your boss and look wise.

Come, all ye workers, from every land,
Come join in the grand Industrial band.
Then we our share of this earth shall demand.
Come on! Do your share, like a man.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: ranger1
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:47 PM

I was never tempted to join a union until I did some seasonal work for Target this past holiday season and 45 minutes of the orientation was spent on an anti-union propaganda video. Now don't get me wrong, Target treats their employees pretty well, I just don't like having propaganda and scare tactics shoved in my face.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM

Good for him! He's standing up for what he believes in.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Rog Peek
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:29 PM

Yes, well done indeed!

Rog


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Elmore
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:48 PM

Excellent.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:55 PM

congratulations


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:21 PM

"I was never tempted to join a union"... To me that's a strange way of putting it. I know there are some people, even a lot of people who see it that way - but in every job I've ever done finding out what union I should belong to has been one of the first things to find out, and I'd be ashamed and embarrassed not to belong to it.

Congratulations to your son, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: gnu
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 09:17 PM

Congrats on a fine lad and the father that raised him right.

I want to say a whole lot more but that would just be stuff about what we all know anyway.

Support unions... they support you.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 09:46 PM

I love the red cards! I remember seeing Utah show his at his concerts.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:55 PM

Would he like to organise a UK branch please?


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 09:59 AM

Let me put in a plug for We Shall Be All: A History of the Industrial Workers of the World; Melvin Dubovsky, 1969.
There's also an abridged version edited by Joseph A. McCartin circa 2000.

Excellent book, and the standard history of the IWW.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM

There already is one, Richard. See http://iww.org.uk/


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 10:01 AM

He's busy organizing the angels.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM

McGrath,
I have never worked a job where a union membership was available. I suspect that was what Tami was thinking as well.
Trade unions abound; government workers unions abound. But I have always worked in sales for companies who follow municipal hiring laws. That has been protection enough or someone would have tried to organize. Never even been approached.
Mary, who comes from generations of union workers.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 11:33 AM

"can he organise a uk branch please"whats wrong with organising one yersell if you are thst concerened? Thats the trouble aint it? Always some one elses job..Joe Hill would turn over in his grave.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM

If there's no union in place there should be. Which means joining a relevant union and trying to recruit others. Which of course might identify that the management is anti-union, which is the kind of job where you really need a union.

The same laws that give people a right not to belong to a union give a right to union membership. In any job. There are some countries which don't have that, and some employers who break the law blatantly. Everybody has a duty to fight that if they come across it, even if they don't want to join a union themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

congratulations on having a thoughtful and principled son. in the uk anyway everyone has a right to join a union - even if the employer does not approve or recognise it. it is vital to do so even if only for legal representation when needed if you suffer injury or discrimanation. but good for your son in taking it further- as we all should -and to make your voice heard.(most) bosses -certainly of bigger companies- won't give you fair treatment, it has to be fought for. it's the nature of capitalism that the shareholders have to prosper at the expense of the workers.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 01:28 PM

I love to see youngin's take up the struggle... It's heartwarming...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 01:31 PM

I understand the frustration that these well-educated, well-intentioned and socially and economically mobile young people have. Deal is that they have choices that the hungry people they have decided not to feed don't have.

The problem here is bad management, and, unfortunately, you can't force bad managers to make good decisions, even if you have a little red songbook....


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM

we can't always get what we want, stim - but sometimes, sometimes we get what we need.

(you can't force bad managers to make good decisions) - we won't if we don't try, that's for sure. and the occasional victory is good for the soul.

we just had a successful campaign to force the cumbria council to turn down a government application (ironically here, union-backed) to test for a nuclear dump site in the lake district - the most beautiful part of england and geographically one of the least stable.

we're still ruled by a load of lying, thieving, psychopaths mind you....


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 02:28 PM

That's good. Even better than good, achmelvitch. You stopped something terrible from happening. Sadly, in this world, a lot of times, nobody steps up to do that. Even more sadly, a lot of other times, the people who step up don't have a workable strategy, and they lose.

I develop and manage strategic plans, originally in the corporate sector, but now, for small, mission-oriented non-profits. When I read the article Jim linked to above, I knew immediately what the problems were. Unfortunately, my experience has been that I am usually far from the first person to see the problems, and that I am not going to have any more luck changing things than the ones who came before me.

In a philosophical mood, I would point out that the whole "protest/strike" thing is based in a patriarchial "Judeo/Christian" model that presumes that there is a higher authority to whom we can alway appeal for justice. I put the Judeo-Christian in quotes, though, because the truth comes from the popular paraphrase of
Rabbi Hillel, which, approximately is, "If not now, when, if not me, who?"


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM

cheers stim - i do like your closing quote there. when it comes to workable strategies, i'm not sure - i like the kick it up in the air and see what happens thing sometimes (though that has been a disaster in iraq!) and sometimes a lot of energy and idealism can be dissipated in meetings and consultations.

near where i live, on the solway coast, there is the start of a railway bridge that used to link cumbria to scotland (about 1 and a half miles) it's long since fallen down -there was trouble with the scots walking across to take advantage of the more liberal english licensing laws, apparently) anyway, over the years i have often walked along what remains of the bridge - it's a great spot for birdwatching. last year i went up there again and couldn't get down the (start of the) bridge as it was all overgrown with thick gorse and brambles. i was annoyed and went walking elsewhere.

then in december i got up one morning, took a small handsaw and some secauteurs and started cutting my way down the bridge. after about 4 days of hard work i had cut a new footpath and sat at the end overlooking the estuary to scotland,on a beautiful day (in february -weird) with sandwiches and a good bottle of beer, feeling very smug with myself - your 'if not now, when - if not me, who?' -feels very appropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM

It sounds like a wonderful place to be. The beer and the sandwich sound good, too!


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 04:21 PM

"Abrahamic" perhaps, rather than "Judeo-Christian", to include the third branch, Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 04:26 PM

in the pedantic tradition i should point out that when the bridge was in use it was between cumberland (not cumbria) and scotland


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:17 PM

Not according to the Quran, McGrath. "Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (Sura 112:1-4, Yusuf Ali).


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM

You think that means that God isn't seen as being in charge off everything by Muslims? I don't think that suggestion would go down too well with most Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 02:06 PM

The IWW served an organizing function in its day to promote international unionism by rank and file unskilled workers and not just the guild unions. This is probably why it has stayed in business for so long, people recognize the role it plays.

It's fitting that many of its parodies have been religious hymns. This says something about organized fundamentalist religion taking an oppressive stand against unions.

This religious oppression goes on behind the scenes as well as a Republican agenda in an attempt to "privatize" America. One could argue who is using who? But they work hand in glove.

Maybe we should all join the Wobblies.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 02:34 PM

...It's fitting that many of its parodies have been religious hymns. This says something about organized fundamentalist religion taking an oppressive stand against unions.

I'd say it says much more about the fact that such hymns were, especially at that time, tunes and words that would have been reliably known by the workers the songs were made for.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 08:09 PM

Granted- to a degree, Kevin. But if you read up on the history of the IWW and the persecution the organization - and other unionization efforts - by organized fundagelical religion including a certain U.S. Roman Catholic bisop, you'll be forced to accept Stringsingers point.

And, to a degree, this anti-union orientation still persists in the U.S. Bible Belt.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 10:01 PM

No, McGrath, it means that Muslims don't, or at least shouldn't think in terms of "God the Father". That's not what God is.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 12:05 AM

Lidl and Aldi have revolutionised shopping in Ireland - cheap prices for high quality. But last week a protest by members of unions outside a Dublin Lidl shop stunned people who had thought that Lidl was a good employer.
Looking for further information, I found this 2007 article in a British paper. There were others. But I thought Aldi might be better.
Unfortunately, local staff told me that Aldi's the same: a requirement to whizz 1,150 items through the till in a specified time, and if you don't, the manager comes and gives out to you; till staff are harassed if they don't insist that customers pack on the packing shelf rather than at the till; staff have a 15-minute lunch break, and anything more comes out of their wages...


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 04:12 AM

Regardless of ones Political Orientation , membership of a Trade Union is a very usful thing , even if its only for the Legal assistabce that a union can offer in event of a work place accuident .
I also feel its 'not polite' to accept all the advantages that a Union has negotiated for the staff an not contribute to Union Funds .


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 08:50 AM

"regardless of ones Political Orientation" well there is a few ten doller words for you!

You have some funny ideas what Trade Unions are aBout dude!!

What we want is more hard line activists in our movement not wishy washy pantywaisters like you "Guest "

In the words of the greatest trade union leader ever, Arthur Scargill "We dont want pound note consciouneses, we want you out on the picket line supporting".
In my words:

We dont want "polite"
We are not at home to "usefull"
We are not going to let down all the brave trade unionists who suffered so others could enjoy the rights they fought for.

ORGANISE
AGITATE
EDUCATE

Thesee should be our watchword and rallying cry.

JOIN THE UNION


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

GUEST , concerned .
If EVERY Trade Unionist was as Hard Left as you I would be extremely concerned about Trade Unionism ! Arthur Scargill has lined his own pockets from NUM membership, so dont quote hime to me .


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Mark Ross
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 02:38 PM

As a Wobbly of 42 years I welcome your son to the One Big Union.

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 07:07 PM

In case anyone wants to follow the story I started this thread with....

FAQ about the Sisters' Camelot Canvass Strike, posted Mar 3.

Striking Non-Profit Workers Walk Out in Response to Surprise Retaliatory Firing, posted Mar 4.

Home page of 'The Organizer' blog
(Right now it just has the same information already posted, but it will probably have updates as they become available.)

I would be interested in hearing your comments about the "retaliatory firing."

By the way, the guy who was "fired" is a good friend of my son. Until recently they played in a band together.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 08:47 PM

The concept of God as father is very much a Christian one rather than a Judeo-Christian one. What all the Abrahamic religions have in common is the concept of God as, to quote Stim, "a higher authority to whom we can always appeal to justice".

Muslims of course see their religion as the authentic continuation of that of Abraham, with Judaism and Christianity as departures from that tradition. Similarly Christians have often seen Islam as a breakaway from Christianity. The three traditions are very entangled, and have a great deal in common.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerned
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:13 AM

I get concerend when I hear your comments leadfingers.I dont see basic Trade Union philophesy as Hard left; whatever that may mean.

Were is your proof king arthur lined his own pockets, are you saying Trade Union officers shouldnt be paid?..nice concept.

Hard left activists? what good has soft left been to any of us.Suppose you'll quote the UDMs shameullfll part in the Great strike?
Or the shamefull behaviour of chappells mob at Wapping as another outstandng example of "moderation"

And not us let forget the TUC's shining example to us all over the years

In the words of the other great trade unionist Ricky Tomlinson;

MY Arse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:40 AM

And Red Robbo was the final nail in Car production at Cowley !
Abd aapart from fourteen years in the RAF I have been a Union Member all my working life , and still AM a member .
I see no reason why Trade Union full time officers should not be paid a fair wage , but cant see any justification in a Retired Ex Union President having a FREE Hame for life at Union expense .


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,corncerend
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:05 AM

You really dont get it Terry do you?

Exactly the point I am making.Anyone can be a member of a Trade Union, old boy, same as any one can vote labour..dont make you an activist.
Again you lot need to read and UNDERSTAND your history, instaed of accepting the gutter press and media and blindly follow their view.

Dereck Robinson was sold out by leadership of his own union the AUEW.Yet another shameful example of spineless Trade Union leadership.

Let us start adressing the real problem, that is only done by direct action.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM

And again you might follow this up before you start casting aspersions on one the trade union movements biggest heroes who, led from the front..were did you lead from Leadfingers? the Naaafi?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2002/may/27/mondaymediasection.politicsandthemedia


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:44 PM

If you read them carefully, McGrath(and not many do) the "Abrahamic" texts all say that if we want peace, justice, etc, we must work it out among ourselves. They do provide some basic guidelines but that's really about it. Unfortunately, many of us never quite learn to color between the lines, and so it goes...


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:20 AM

What has that got to do with the wobblies.?.Thread creep that is all.

Oh..keep on believing in the magical man...he will put it alright...NOT.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM

I'm not clear where you see me as differing from you, Stim, or where you see yourself as differing from me. Not to worry.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM

I'm not clear where you see me as differing from you, Stim, or where you see yourself as differing from me. Not to worry.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:26 AM

Trying to frame a real response to Jim Dixon's question--I've googled everything, and facebooked, etc. This is not a typical labor-management dispute--both Sister's Camelot(who are being struck against) and the Wobblies are part of the Anarchist/Green community. It is a dispute between friends, each group perceiving that the other behaved badly.

SC basically gathers surplus organic foods, prepare them, and distribute meals for free in the lower income neighborhoods to anyone who is hungry. Most of the work is done by volunteers,and the effort is organized as a collective. Interestingly, Shuge Mississippi(Jim's son's friend), who is attempting to organize the canvassers/fundraisers to strike against the collective is also one of the founders of the collective.

It is also worth noting that the canvasser/fundraisers get a large chunk of the money that they raise--one third, and in 2010, that was one third of $177,000--$60,000, with the organization keeping $117,000.

The C/F's have 18 demands, which I can't seem to find on line, only some of which are economic. Most of them, apparently, are not members of the collective, owing to the fact that in order to be a member of the collective, you must be a volunteer. One of the things they want is membership in the collective.

Overall, it looks like Shuge Mississippi is actually a manager who
contracts the C/Fs, and he couldn't get the support in the collective for changes that he wanted made, and he wants to bring the C/Fs into the collective where, as their manager, he will have their support.

It is worth underscoring the fact that as a founder of the collective, he was responsible for making the rule that keeps the C/Fs from becoming members of the collective. In other words, he made up the rules that collective is playing by, and now that things are not coming out his way, he wants to change them.

Anyway, since I can't find the 18 demands, don't know if he is right, and the collective has made bad decisions--collective decision making doesn't always work. I do know that the "Solidarity" means that, for good or ill, once the decisions are made, you stick together.

So basically, I think he was fired for breaking his trust with the collective, and for bringing the Wobblies in to force the collective to change it's decisions.

I think that he shouldn't have gotten the Wobblies involved, because he had as much or more power in the collective as anyone else, so it wasn't really a labor/management issue. I also think that it wasn't the best decision to fire him.

The organization is a very small group of lefties who work for little to nothing to feed and inspire--it's the realization of a shared, self-less vision. Unfortunately, I think that what has happened is more likely to damage or destroy Sister's Camelot.
Once the strike stops the food busses, it's going to take a lot more than just money to get them going again.

PS-I find it extremely ironic that the Wobblies are soliciting food donations for the strikers.


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:37 AM

Kevin--I don't disagree with you, I'm just putting too fine a point on it--and, concerened-it took a while, but I did address the issue, though maybe not in the way that agrees with you.

Also, the point that Kevin and I don't disagree on is that "If not me, who?" means that the magic man won't intervene, and it's up to us...

And the message I send out to Shuge Mississippi is that the Wobblies aren't the magic man who will intervene, and you need to work this stuff out with your friends in the collective directly, if it isn't too late...


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Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 12:22 PM

St Teresa of Avila expressed the same idea when she wrote "Christ has no body now on earth but yours". I am sure you could find some Islamic teacher who has done the same.


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