BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

I am sure it's there in the Quran somewhere--

Meanwhile, here is a link to A Really Good Article about "Sister's Camelot" at the collective's home page. There is also a box on the right side which features their Facebook responses to the strikers.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:24 PM

The collective is starting to get their side of things out there, so here is the Latest Response from Sister's Camelot including the 18 Demands.

I've looked the demands over, and I think that there are a couple good things in there, but overall, the demands would hand control of the fundraising operation to the canvassers, with no accountability to the collective at all.

Also, the collective says that Shuge Mississippi's termination was a result of ongoing problems with him. We, on the outside, have no way of knowing whether that is true or not, but it is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 05:23 PM

Take the Quran and St. Theresa elsewhere, folks. This is the worst case of thread drift/hijacking I've seen in many a day.

Joel Hagglund is shaking his head....

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:01 PM

I am the only one who's even bothered follow up the details of the action, Greg F, so don't accuse me of hijacking the thread. And you started off on a religious tangent yourself.

So back to the question at hand, what do you think about the Sister's Camelot collective firing Shuge Mississippi?

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerned
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:26 AM

Whats this girls, handbags at twelve paces?

Come, come comrades,,lets have no dissent in the ranks!

This is supposed to be a Wobblie thread, not a theological rant.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:15 AM

What! arent you talkng to each other...bit childish aint it?

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 08:47 AM

Hijacking? Nash drift. Moderate drift is what keeps threads visible so the original discussion can carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 08:58 AM

Cut the the chase, Concerned. This is a thread about the particular IWW action that Jim's son is involved in--I've given my views(based on what info I have been able to find) and there are links to both sides of the issue in this thread --it's the Green Collective vs. the Wobblies. Which side are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:18 AM

Let me get clarify my question: I don't expect anyone to be able to judge whether the firing was justified in this particular case. I more wanted to know: Have you ever heard of this kind of thing happening in other strike situations? What was the outcome? Can they get away with it?

I mean, even if you knew nothing else about the case, the timing looks awfully suspicious doesn't it? To fire someone on the first day of a strike, and then claim that he has a long history that justifies it?

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:43 AM

Suspicious? You bet. But that's what the exploiting class does for a living, Jim. That's why we need unions.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:11 AM

You bet it is suspiciouse!!

Can they get away with it?...you bet!!

They can do anything they damn well want to do.If you let 'em.

Get over this " why we need unions" like they are some one else. You are the goddamn unions!! And only you.

get over the " quite usefull" as in an insurance scheme.

Get some learning done, learn about the sacrifices ordinary working stiffs have gone through.Dont be like the pantywaisters with their "to left wing" and "ones political persusion" like guest and the psuedo intellectual leadhead, sorry fingers.

It is a war out there. No one gives you anything, certainly not the magical man in the sky.

What side am I on guest stim? Well I do come on the side of the Wobblies.But there again some of you nomarks wouldnt want anything to do with an organisation that i would join.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:16 AM

Firing someone in retaliation for union organizing, at least in principle, can be illegal. However employers are also entitled to fire anyone, at any time, as long it isn't for an illegal reason, and you have to prove that the reason was illegal. And employees can be fired during a strike--look at what happened to the air traffic controllers.

Judging by the comments at the Sister's Camelot site, the members of the collective feel betrayed by Shuge because
they feel that when the collective didn't do what he wanted, rather than supporting their decision, which, as a member of the collective, he was committed to do, he organized his workers to get leverage against the collective.

That's a pretty good reason to toss someone out of the collective, which is essentially what they did. And since, as a member of the collective, he was authorized by the collective to hire canvassing contractors, he is, defacto, out of a job. It's arguable, of course.

Also, since Shuge was a member of the collective, and acted on behalf of the collective when he hired and managed the canvassers, he could be considered to be the employer, not an employee, and, as an employer, his his union recruiting activities are pretty questionable--after all, when the guy that has the power to hire and fire "asks" you to join the union, what do you do?

We haven't even gotten to the question of whether this union legally represents the "strikers" or whether the the strike is a legally constituted strike. There is another question, too, and that is, who do the canvassers actually work for?

All this stuff will have to be considered in whatever resolution efforts follow-there could be binding arbitration, or even lawsuits.

Curiously enough, even though the there are a small number of people involved, and very little money involved in the operation, resolving the issues could take a while, and cost a lot of money.

My question for you is, did Shuge realize, when he chose this course, that the immediate result might be that he would be expelled from the collective and lose his job? And, did he consider that a long term result might be that the collective would be destroyed, and that the conflict that he began had the potential to leave permanent scars in the larger community?

So the answer is, yes, I've heard of this kind of thing happening-in strike situations people can lose their jobs and not get them back.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:55 AM

If you think that Sister's Camelot, which is a Green collective that gathers and prepares surplus organic food and distributes it for free lower income neighborhoods in any way is the "exploiting class" GregF, you haven't bothered to read the links. You neither, concerned--the only people who make any money on this operation are the ones who have gone out on strike. Everyone else works for free.

At the risk of repeating myself, I think that this situation is essentially a difference among friends, and doesn't either merit or benefit from the involvement of the IWW, which I actually once belonged to (but I haven't paid my dues in about 40 years). I am very much afraid that taking the conflict this route will destroy the organization.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,wobbly
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:14 PM

Stim- shugE is not a collective member. You seem to have made this decision at some point, but it is incorrect. There is a collective member and canvass director who has decided not to perform his duties in solidarity with the strikers, his name is Bobby.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,wobbly
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:30 PM

furthermore, your assertion that the only people who make any money are the strikers is incorrect. Most of the collective members are salaried for their work at SC.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:07 PM

Thanks for clarifying. Those salaries are not listed in the IRS 2010 990, which is where I got that info. One of the sites, which I cannot find right now, had a statement that Shuge had been one of the founders of Sister's Camelot, and he was quoted as saying that he had been one of the founders of the collective.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,wobbly
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:24 PM

shugE was not a founder of SC, but was of the collective (long history, unnecessary to this issue), but at some point ceased being on the collective. He still worked for SC, as a canvasser.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:42 PM

Thanks for the clarification. Didn't know that he is no longer in the collective.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:06 PM

I think they had the right idea. Worker-owned businesses and collectives.
"International" was the operative word. The Unions today are mostly co-opted by management such as is the AFL.

I believe that wildcat strikes are a good thing to keep unions honest.

Unfortunately there are the Hoffas to contend with.

However, "Solidarity Forever!"

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 08:43 PM

Crap!Stringsinger. another example of middle class muddied thinking international was never the part of IWW. It was INDUSTRIAL.

Again you apportion blame to "unions" Hoffa was only a part of the Teamsters.Albeit an important part.

Solidarity forever? do not make me laugh; you havent even got a basic grasp of any of that.

You and your ilk would crap yourselves if there was any chance of workers collective, wildcat strikes or anything that could interfere with your Rosy dozy life.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 08:03 AM

Well,"concerend"(or however you spell it today), I think Stringsinger meant that the Industrial Workers of the World had an International mission, "of the World, after all, does mean "international".

Please don't call Stringsinger names(especially those names), you obviously don't know him, or you'd know that he's been singing "Joe Hill" for strikers for a long, long time.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: GUEST,van
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 04:39 PM

achmelvich Its a small world we live in even with the aid of computers. i used to go to the Scottish end of that bridge as a youngster.

Subject: RE: BS: My son has joined the Wobblies.
From: Mooh
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:13 AM

Congratulations. Union membership is a matter self preservation and of dignity and self respect in my neck of the woods. It is also on the decline.

A firing during a strike smacks of bad faith. Such actions are often recinded as part of the settlement. The union should fight for this, tooth and nail.

I was a Musicians Union member, Service Employee's International Union member, Canadian Auto Workers Union member, and for a few years worked for the SEIU as a rep/negotiator/H&S. Fifteen years or so ago I became self-employed and therefore didn't require a union. Nonetheless, I support my wife, family members, friends, and community in union matters. Besides all those wonderful things unions have provided us over the years, they have softened the blow of plant closings, amagamations, gov't cutbacks, and other menaces to the workers and society.

All the best to your son and his brothers and sisters. Solidarity forever.

Peace. Mooh.