BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Den
Date: 05 Nov 99 - 01:31 PM

Kat Druids was written by Morgan Llywellyn. Funny you should mention it I just got it out of the library. Another of her books 1916 was recommended to me by Big Mick which I read and thoroughly enjoyed. I am currently reading another of her books called Red Branch. Den

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From:
Date: 05 Nov 99 - 01:38 AM

Admits freely to being IrishCatholicAfricanAmericanJewish - now where is the lynch mob....ONLY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA can this happen...

Bill of Rights = Charter to Murder : almost forgot did'nt the Angels / Engels come out of what is now Sweeden?

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 09:41 PM

Linda and Paddymac: thanks for the comic relief! Those were both great. I read a very good fictional account of these times, a couple of years ago, simply called Druids. Can't remember who it was by and I've lent it out so can't check. It was paperback. Also, have, but haven't read, yet, Peter Berresford Ellis', nonfiction, The Druids. Have any of you read it?

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: paddymac
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 05:25 PM

Well spoken Malcolm. I had the occasion to overhear a pub chat not long ago in which three lads of Old Albion seemed intent on goading a son of the auld sod. The first went up to Paddy and boldy announced that St. Patrick was a poof. Paddy took a sip of his pint and allowed as how he had never heard that before. Frustrated at his inability to provoke Paddy's ire, the lad returned to his mates, whereon the second took up the challenge. He went up to Paddy and loudly proclaimed that Patrick was also a lush and a lout. paddy again fresponded that he had never heard that before, then went back to his pint. The third lad then took up the challenge and loudly proclaimed for all to hear that "St Patrick was an Englishman!". Paddy looked at him calmly and relpied: "Yeah, that's what your mates were telling me." *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: linda kelly
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 04:30 PM

With regard to God being an Englishman, I believe more accurately he comes from Yorkshire (just west of Barnsley) - I know this because my husband believes he is a direct descendant.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 03:25 PM

LonesomeEJ mostly has the right of it. Administratively everyone south of the Wall of Antoninus Pius (which ran from Forth to Clyde) was a "Roman", and as far as the Britons' own opinion of themselves at the time can be determined, they (or at least the well-off among them) thought of themselves as Romans.

Hence the idea that Patrick had a "Roman father and a Celtic mother" is misleading. As far as we know, his father was just as British as his mother, and his mother was just as Roman as his father. Patrick's first language seems to have been British, not Latin, as you can tell from the "saliva" of his writing (Patrick's own word.) But he doesn't think himself on that account any less the son of his father the decurion. He only regrets that he doesn't write Latin well enough to express himself as clearly as he'd like.

A century after Patrick's time the Britons' opinion of themsleves seems to have shifted. At the very least, St. Gildas's polemical purpose was served by portraying the Britons (his own people) as barbarians whom even the mighty Romans (now described as foreigners from afar) had been unable to govern.

I would only gripe at one thing LonesomeEJ has written. The Roman troops weren't "withdrawn" from Britain to protect the Roman heartland. Around 407 A.D. the British legions proclaimed one of their commanders Emperor Constantine III of Rome, and launched an expedition to Gaul to head off a barbarian invasion before it could threaten Britain. Presumably the troops also intended to take control of the city of Rome. Britain's combat-ready troops weren't withdrawn to protect the heartland; they sallied forth to protect Britain. So far as I know, the expedition was overwhelmed in Gaul, whether by barbarians or by the Emperor Honorius's troops I don't know. There were still Roman troops in Britain, but they were far under strength.

T.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 03:18 PM

As has been pointed out earlier, the use of the term "English" when referring to St. Patrick is anachronistic. I have heard it suggested that he was Pictish, too, for what it's worth. I should mention, though, that the use of "Irish" when referring to the Scoti is also anachronistic, since Ireland as a nation did not at that time exist. It is also quite incorrect to refer to Scoti in Scotland (as that country later became) as "Irish", just as it would be to refer to those Scoti who remained in mainland Europe as "Irish".

Pedantic, I know, but it's important to remember that this was a time of tribal migrations, and the "nation" as we understand it today did not really exist. It's also worth remembering that the Romano-Britons did not simply move lock stock and barrel to Wales and Cornwall (as they later became) when the Angles, Saxons and so on turned up; many stayed put and intermarried. There is a lot more Celtic blood in the average English person -and Anglo-Saxon and Norse blood in the "Celtic" nations- than is generally realised!

Malcolm

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 02:01 PM

Oh please don't tell my Irish Catholic grandmother. She'll be rolling in her grave!

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 01:54 PM

Ah, so that would explain when my father teased mom about being "black Irish" with her black hair and flashing eyes, though she was more Scots and English.

How do we know for sure that Patrick was even a "he"?**BG** TIC!

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 01:54 PM

Have to disagree with Anonymous, who said the invading Angles and Saxons were "more civilized" than the "Brutal Romans". The Roman's strategy in battle was indeed brutal- it was designed to induce immediate capitulation through maximum threat. But once the Romans had conquered a people, as they did the Britons, the members of the population were made Roman Citizens, and enjoyed all of the rights and privileges of the other citizens of the Empire. They also enjoyed a phenomenal improvement in their lifestyles through increased trade, better transportation,and the inter-tribal peace brought by Pax Romana.

Briton was left unguarded after the Legions withdrew in the 5th Century,the troops pulled back to protect the Empire's heart from the incursions of the Germanic and Asiatic tribes. By now, most Celts living within the borders of Roman Britain considered themselves Romans, and in fact were highly interbred with their former conquerors. They had little in common with the barbaric invading Jutes, Angles and Saxons, and fought hard to confine them to Eastern England. Arthur, if he did exist, was probably one of these Celt/Roman Military leaders. The defeat of the Celts resulted in the collapse of law and infra-structure, leaving the Roman roads and Monuments as colossal relics of a long-ago civilized time.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 01:43 PM

The bagpipe is a pan-European instrument, possibly extending even farther. The posession of the bagpipe by the Galicians doesn't make them so-called "Celts" any more than it makes the slavic Macedonians celtic -- or the Roman emperor Nero, who played the bagpipe [as well as the fiddle :-) ]

The name, "Galicia", suggests that the land was once ruled by people whose self-designation began with Gal- or Gael-, and this suggest Celtic-speaking conquerers (compare Galatia in Asia Minor). But this doesn't by itself make the people "Celts". Andalusia, also in Spain, is named after the Vandals, but the Vandals haven't ruled it for centuries, and one doesn't ordinarily think of the people of Andalusia as "Vandals".

If "Celtic" is a linguistic designation, then most of the inhabitants of Ireland and Scotland are not "Celts". If it is a geographical designation, then the Turks who now inhabit Galatia are Celts. If it is a genetic designation, depending on certain "celtic-marker" blood proteins, then the some Galicians might be Celts, though whether they were descended from medieval Irish pilgrims going to Santiago, or directly from Iron-age Celtic language speakers, would remain to be determined. This blood-group analysis, of course, might very well exclude as many Irishmen, Scots, and so forth from "celtic" status as it included, even if the marker proteins would be identified. (Who would decide what they were ?) If "Celt" represents a historical experience, then the Galicians must be considered a sort of fringe or bridge group. Irish (among other) pilgrims passing throught Galicia have left a cultural mark, but Spanish culture has been influential in Galicia, and Galician was once the poetic language of the court in Castile.

If the test of a "Celt" is to be one of "the heart knows what it is", then I think that many Galicians may be Celtic in this sense, identifying themselves with a pan-celtic feeling. I consider Pan-celticism to be one of the legacies of romanticism. Hence by my analysis, neither the Galicians nor the Irish nor anyone else was a "Celt" in this romantic sense before the 19th century.

T.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Blackcat2
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 01:40 PM

For further info on the Galicians check out the Chieftains album on the subject - "Santiago"

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From:
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 12:26 PM

Clifton I found another one, Galicia or in Spanish Gallego. Located in N Western Spain this province is regarded as the original launch point for the Scoti migration into Ireland and later from there to modern Scotland. The Galicians still have a seperate language and culture also they have Bag Pipes.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Clifton53
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 12:14 PM

Sorry, I meant Concarneau.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Clifton53
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 12:11 PM

The flower of the free, the heather, the heather

The Bretons and Scots and Irish together

The Manx and the Welsh and Cornish forever,

Six nations are we, all Celtic and free!!

In Brittany, where I was lucky enough to spend three weeks,many towns are known in both French, and Celtic writing. Thus, a place like Concareau is noted that way on signs and as Konkerne, the original name when the Celts were there.

Clifton

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From:
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 12:02 PM

Clifton please tell me which one I am missing, Uk+Roi, Australia, Newzealand, USA, which is 5.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: cookie_busted
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 11:38 AM

Paddymac you are right on the money there, in fact the further south region below Dublin is yet more 'English', oddly a modern English person would not notice it, centuries of mingling (love that word).

Later the Normans came to Ireland, fought a few big battles where they discovered whiskey and clog dancing, they then settled in like everyone else who came before.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Blackcat2
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 10:06 AM

Goodness! Patrick - English!?!

What is next - he didn't actually drive all the snakes off of Erin's green shore????

Like many of the Saints (especially old ones) Patrick's history is fact, conjecture and myth rolled into one and anyone who despirately needs to believe in the absolute truth needs to realize historians just don't know it all. Mr. (or Ms.) "Name Withheld" seems to have the intention of raising the ire (pun intend) of various Mudcatters. 'Tis a shame nobody really care where people come from if their desire is to HELP others. (look at the leaders of the Easter Rebellion - Hollywood would have never written their characters the way they really were.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 09:30 AM

Clerical celibibacy didn't become enforced in any way that could be called "approximately effective" until the high middle ages, but there were pronouncements from the Bishop of Rome as early as the 4th century ordering some clergy to refrain from conjugal knowledge of their wives. One scholar has used the timing of these pronouncements to support his estimate of the date of Patricks birth !

For St. Patrick's memory to serve as a political football is very much in the Irish tradition. Patrick was an obscure local saint of Ard-Macha until the Easter controversy, whereupon as I understand the history, a deal (in effect, not necessarily in conscious intention)was struck: The north of Ireland would accept the south's procedure for computing Easter, and in exchange the Patrick's successors at Armagh would become the preeminant bishops of Ireland.

T.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: paddymac
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 09:13 AM

There was a report a year or so ago of the discovery of an apparent Anglo-Saxon settlement below a Danish Viking settlement along the River Liffey, and a couple of years before that a report of an apparent Roman military encampment near Lough Neagh. The curious thing is not that these folks were in Ireland, but why we should presume a priori that they never made it there when Celt-Iberians and Phoenicians (probably) did. Any society of coastal sailors in that part of the world would have had to be incredibly inept not to have known about and visited Ireland. Global commerce is not a new idea.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Den
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 09:12 AM

Just a thought. We may have been a whole lot better off if Patrick had stayed where he was. Den

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Den
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 09:10 AM

Your right MMario. Take the Borgias for example, now there was a prolific little group. Den

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: MMario
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 08:57 AM

??? Priest weren't required to be celibate until sometime around the 12th or 13th century if I recall....

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Clifton53
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 08:53 AM

Six nations are we, all Celtic and free!

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Ringer
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 07:54 AM

God was an Englishman, wasn't he? So it's no surprise to me that St Patrick was, too *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: Tommy Cooper's Ghost
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 03:12 AM

A pot is a pan.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From:
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 03:09 AM

A horse in a cowshed is still a horse, (saxon wise ass saying!) Anglo/Saxons begun arriving in ???land long before the Romans and it is precisely because of that they already knew what and where to do after the Romans were weakened and finaly defeated. The very same campaigns left the natives easy prey but, as you already know but do not mention at all (wondering why), the new arrivals were a great deal more civilised than the brutal Roman. The A/S settled peacefuly for the most part and a lot of disputes were settle by champions not battles!

More fun, 'eastern Ireland was settled by Anglo-Saxons ... but there was no war or battle they just moved on in there and mingled'

Custom and Culture
There was a gradual change in custom rather than an abrupt one and the native Romano/Celt did not put up much of a fight against the new language! 'Tis easy to see why. Beer

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: alison
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 02:36 AM

Believe or not... I have a friend from England, who for some reason (probably insanity) wanted to hear Ian Paisley preach while she was on a holiday to Northern Ireland....... I'd like to point out - she went alone..... but she swears that he preached a sermon to prove that St Patrick was a Protestant.

The basis of the argument being that Patricks father was a priest, and since Catholic priests are celibate, it had to be a Protestant priest. Therefore St Patrick was a Protestant.

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: paddymac
Date: 03 Nov 99 - 11:11 PM

T in OK. There are several schools of thought on Patric's origin, but most agree it was what today is western England, probably Wales. He is usually considered the son of a Roman by a Celtic mother. He is from that time when "absolutes" should be taken with a grain or two of salt. There are other persons of "English" origin who have made major contributions to Irish lore and history, Arthur Guiness and Jack Charlton among them.

Subject: RE: BS: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From: T in Oklhaoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 03 Nov 99 - 07:34 PM

St. Patrick was not "English", he was "British". The "English" (whom the British called "Saxons") were only just arriving in Britain in the middle of St. Patrick's lifetime (circa 385 - circa 461--I don't hold to the obiit in 491 theory.) Similarly in his lifetime "Scotus" meant "Irishman" regardless of where the Irishman lived (whether in Ireland or in Britain). So to say that Patrick was kidnapped by "Scots" slavers is true only as long as no connection to Scotland (which did not yet exist) is implied.

St. Patrick, in his writings, considers himself Christian first, Roman second, and British third. So in his lifetime the British were still Roman, even though the Emperor hadn't had any direct authority in Britain since the early 400's. A hundred years after Patrick, St. Gildas, writing his "Grouchy Book concerning the Downfall and Dying Scream of Britain" at Menevia (now St. David's) writes of "the Romans" as if they were foreigners who came to Britain and left long ago. So between Patrick's time and Gildas's time there was a sharp discontinuity in British outlook introduced by the calamitous first war against the English. Not long after Gildas's time the English went on the offensive again and ended up dominating most of what is now "England". It was probably not before this time, circa 600 A.D., that St. Patrick's birthplace of "Bannavem Taburniae" came under English domination so as to be part of "England". If "Bannavem Taburniae" is in Wales or Cornwall, it was long after this time (if ever) that St. Patrick's birthplace could be called and "English" town.

T.

Subject: St Patrick an Englishman ?
From:
Date: 03 Nov 99 - 06:52 PM

Extremely funny but true, the English get the last laugh, St Patrick was kidnapped by Scoti raiders and taken to Ireland from England where he was born and raised.